Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / Ep237 ‘What Values Make A Professional Therapist?' - Reflection with Sarah Jones & Sal Martin

Transcript

Ep237 ‘What Values Make A Professional Therapist?' - Reflection with Sarah Jones & Sal Martin · The STA Clinician Podcast

0:00
Music.
0:12
I'm alive. Hey people, how are you doing? Welcome to episode 237 of the Sports
0:17
Therapy Association podcast.
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My name is Matt Phillips, creator of runchatlive.com and as always this episode
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is being recorded live at eight o'clock on Tuesday on the Sports Therapy Association
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YouTube channel and we also put it out to Facebook as well.
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We've reached the third episode of our new reflection series on the Sports Therapy
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Association podcast in which to invite a listener slash listeners of the podcast
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onto the show to chat with me about a past episode of the STA podcast that particularly
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affected their daily practice as a soft tissue therapist.
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In this episode, very shortly, I will be joined by Sarah Jones and Sal Martin
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of the STScore and Hands-On Hub.
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Not sadly, Anna Maria Matsieri as originally advertised as she had a last minute
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drama at work, such as the life of a soft tissue therapist extraordinaire.
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But Sarah and Sal will be here to reflect on episode 214 of the podcast entitled
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What Values Make a Professional Therapist, which was recorded back in September 2024.
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So last year with guest Martin Christensen, who is already in the room.
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So I'm very excited and nervous about tonight.
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And remember, before we go live, if you are listening to this,
1:32
or if you've joined us live and you'd like to be a guest on the show to chat
1:36
about a past episode, then all you have to do is reach out to me on social media.
1:40
So either at Run Chat Live or,
1:43
or at UK underscore STA and we'll discuss it. Even if you're not quite sure,
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you just need a little call, then do contact me.
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You will obviously need a PC and a laptop.
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Your phone is not ideal. It's just not often there's problems with freezing
1:56
and stuff with connections. So you will need a quality internet connection.
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But the main thing is, it's just you talking about an episode that affected you and your business.
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So really nerves will be there, but you don't have to worry about it.
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But yeah, so contact me if you're interested. I'm booked up now until June or something,
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but I'd love to be prepared um so yeah i look
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forward to hearing from you right people are flocking
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that's flocking martin yeah flocking in
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tonight already um if you are listening to the
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podcast you like joining us live and it's a great opportunity just to hang out
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with other like-minded soft tissue therapists and if you do ask a question or
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leave a comment then i can bring it up on the screen like this cecily hisslop
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says here's to the hands on hub ladies there's a lot of support going for the
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ST score and Hansel Hub, obviously this evening.
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Nikki Mansfield, who started off this Reflection series a couple of weeks ago,
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says she's here for the heckling and his honour.
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I'm sure he has got a title somewhere in Norway.
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Martin Nikolai Amalfus Christensen is here telling me I was three minutes over time unprofessional.
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Interesting. I can see a segue to talk about that. So thanks for joining us, Martin.
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That's three weeks in a row that the guests were talking about actually coming
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to the shows this is going to be great and sir glenn murphy
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is here as well so glenn murphy says coming in
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last i know what happened today glenn yeah what happened
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oh don't worry i'll hold it against you normally first at all right
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so thanks everybody who's joined us live really i really appreciate it it's lovely i
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mean the feedback i get is people like hearing it live so so thank you for joining
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us live i appreciate it right we've left them down in the lobby for long enough
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let's get on with tonight's show I shall now bring up Sal Martin and Sarah Jones
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with the ST Score and Hands On Hub and we shall start this episode.
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Music.
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And hey, Sarah. Hello. How are you doing? Thanks for joining me. Pleasure.
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This is great tonight because, I mean, I can already feel the nerves and the warms.
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You look like an old Ready Breck advert, particularly Sal, who stood in for the last minute.
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Thank you so much, Sal, because Anna Maria last minute wasn't able to join us.
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I really appreciate you coming along.
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And particularly as tonight we're talking about such a controversial figure
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where we're going to put our heads together and try and, well,
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dissection is impossible, maybe peel of a little bit of a layer of what is the
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Martin Nikolai Mousselstyn Christensen.
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But really appreciate you. Well, before we start, although a lot of people who
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join us live know you, if you could maybe let our listeners know who you are,
4:40
what you do for a living, that'd be great.
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Maybe what part of the world you're in. Sal, maybe could you start?
4:45
Right. Well, I'm down here in rainy Cornwall, very near Falmouth.
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I trained under the marvellous Anna-Marie Maciaran in 24 or 23. 24.
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So yeah, SoftBush is down here,
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just about to become a PT as well to merge that into the same business.
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Thank you very much. And Sarah?
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I also trained under Anna Maria in 2016, I think, which makes me ancient.
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I'm based in Chippenham in Wiltshire, got my own clinic at home and various
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special interests, children, women's health, menopause, all that side of things, and feet.
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It's weird mix, I know. It's very random.
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Who knows, all together. No, I really appreciate you two coming along.
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And it's a good example as well of people, anyone who's out there listening
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and they're thinking, oh, I can't do this. It's going to be too nervous.
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Believe me, these two, you don't mind me saying, it's not the most natural thing
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that comes to you, but you guys are here.
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So if they're still here in 30 minutes, we'll have a little get together and see how they are.
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Anyone can do it. I just want to check, I'm hearing an echo could anyone else
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hear an echo yes i might if
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i keep hearing i might mute you until you answer a call or something it's
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not all the time it's just now and again if in the comments if you
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can hear an echo as well then let me know and i'll keep on top of the mute buttons
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anybody who's listening to this okay so we are talking about what values make
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a professional therapist which as i mentioned was recorded last year just before
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therapy expo with martin christensen who anna Maria brought over all the way,
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way away, to speak in the Hanson Hub and to, I'm hearing an echo,
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so let me put a mute on everybody until I actually stop talking.
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Otherwise, this is going to be a bit of a nightmare in the recording. There we go.
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And yeah, and he came over. He said yes, which I think shook Anna Maria more than anybody.
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And he came all the way over and he gave a couple of talks in the STA theatre
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and also in the Hanson Hub on the topic of what values make a professional therapist.
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And you guys chose to bring that up tonight to reflect on. So maybe Sarah, can you start?
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You had 234 episodes to choose from. What made you choose this episode?
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I think because there was a few points that were covered during the talk that
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resonated with me and that I find important.
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I don't necessarily agree with absolutely everything, but it'd be boring if we were all the same.
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But I just, I think what we perceive as professionalism, I think it's different from person to person.
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And there was a lot that you guys talked about, about being your authentic selves.
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So i'll come on to swearing later because i have an opinion.
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Indeed yeah i mean the swearing kind of the swearing encapsulates it it's not
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the only thing we touch on we don't want to make out that the only thing to martin is is he flies,
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but it's something which can divide people left and right quite interestingly
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for people who aren't aware just to give a little bit of background information
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of who this fantastic martin character is i like bringing up this tweet let's
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put this on the main screen so everybody can have a look martin is probably
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best known for will and our circles anyway,
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of starting every friday physio confession podcast and
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that came about after a tweet he shared
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back in 2021 uh those of you watching on
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youtube you can see this on the screen if you listen to podcasts and basically on
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november the 19th 2021 martin christensen decided
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to put in here he was a physio at the time he says sometimes
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when i've done a thorough consultation done all of my tests all
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my screening and checked all my hypothesis i still don't
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have a clue of what the hell is going on and he
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went to bed thinking it's just a little tweet and woke up a megastar because
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it resounded with so many people 1.3 000 likes and obviously he touched onto
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a topic which a lot of people associated with and understood and admired him
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for actually admitting that online on the platform where everybody was going to see he's basically.
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Balding on imposter syndrome and just doubt and just
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admitting that you know humans are complicated he doesn't quite understand
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it so self example for you does that resonate do
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you sometimes do your work and think i'm not a clue what's going on
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here well i'm very new to this yes
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so actually i got a reminder on facebook that
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just the other week i got all my certification in and i was acquired by a therapist
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so i'm still finding my feet definitely i do have imposter syndrome but the
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the client rapport is is coming on beautifully the google reviews the,
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the referring a friend it's all feeling like it's it's real and i'm part of
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the fold and how do you do you feel that it's going to get better and that you
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are eventually going to know everything that's everything could be fine you're
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going to have the answer to everybody who comes to the click i'll never know
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everything no not at all but i'm a thirst for knowledge so i'm.
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You're never going to fix everybody and it's not a fix it's just we're going
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to get there together type of approach but the more I do the more I learn yeah,
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Have you come across the saying that the more you learn, the more you realize
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how little you know? Has that hit you in the face?
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Yeah, thanks for that. Yeah, that resonates.
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Not to bring it down on anything at all, but I think one of the things which
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Martin kind of pointed out with that tweet, and he'll admit,
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I'm sure, and a lot of other people will do, is, yeah, we're always going to get clients who come in.
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And we do everything by the book, and we just seriously, we haven't got a clue what's going on.
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And it happens probably more often than people like to admit um
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sarah something that you are familiar
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with and how do you deal with it if this sort of thing does happen yeah
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well i think i think i think you said this
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in the podcast is that it's healthy to realize that we don't have all the
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answers and i think it's okay to admit that to your clients it's not
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a weakness it's a strength if anything because
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it's honest and you're having an honest relationship with your client as to
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whether you are the right person for them or whether you need to refer them
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on that that that's my take on it I don't think there's anything we need to
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be embarrassed about or have imposter syndrome about yeah I get what you're
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saying Sal because we I still have that but it does get better
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and you feel a little bit better the further you go on when I first qualified I was like oh my god.
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What do I do what do I do on my own now all these people but yeah
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it's okay to say actually do you know what I'm really not
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sure what's going on let's see if we can work it out together and it's
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again something else was mentioned it's about collaborating with your client
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it's not about telling them you work these
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things out together and do the best with the information that
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you've got i think that that being honest is
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is yeah the key word in it and being it's healthy
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to be honest and not beat yourself up about it and
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not to make things up with the client you can fake it till
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you make it a lot you can do a lot of beard stroking and stuff
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and kind of kind of who farted jerry faces and
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stuff like that that's interesting you do lots
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of that but you must have beat yourself up about it and you've got to i think
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one of the nicest things is when you realize this is what we're in we're in
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the business of putting jigsaw pieces together and and trying to work out the
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puzzle that is you know the human being and their ecosystem so and with along
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with honesty that kind of leads
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us on nicely to kind of what martin talked about a lot of that episode is,
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When you work with clients or patients, how honest should you be to them as in to how you are?
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So like Martin, for example, he got into trouble and the reason he kind of got
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into this and then indeed he's doing a whole thesis and a master's in professionalism is,
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yeah, he comes from the north of Norway, which he was saying was famous for
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being quite swearing or having the art of swearing without actually using swear words.
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And and therefore he was picked up
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quite a few times um swearing and also he liked
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a bit of acdc and he's kind of he's very chilled out and relaxed
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and he'd go to work in jeans or whatever and a rock t-shirt
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and stuff and again a few people said to him a
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few managers he worked for said this is not very professional and he was like
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what is professional what is
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the definition how should we be should we all just be wearing you
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know the same uniform and being kind of black and why to not
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have any personality at all how's that going to be for our clients
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or our patients so that's basically what the
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whole episode comes from which you did with us so I
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mean first question let's not go straight into swearing we'll save that what
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about what you wear are you going to be a better therapist if you wear what
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you want or is it a case of you should have a uniform because that's what the
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client expects I open it up to you too what do you think I think it's about,
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It's a way to show your, I actually think uniform's important.
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It doesn't, I mean, we're fairly relaxed, you know, with what we wear.
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I mean, I'm wearing sort of leggings and a t-shirt, but it's got my branding and it's consistent.
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And I quite like, I feel proud of wearing what I wear because it,
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I guess it's part of my, you know, it's a colour I like.
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I helped design the logo. It's, that's me.
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So I'm quite happy with that. And also I don't have to think about what I'm
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putting on in the morning.
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It's a thing of having a uniform. Uniform's a great thing.
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Yeah, and I just, I think it's nice to have a consistent image can carry across
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your social media, your website.
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So for me, I think it's quite an important thing.
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It doesn't mean that we need to go around in iron shirts. But you know,
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if you want to do that, you go for that.
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But this, what I wear is very much me. And that's what I feel comfortable in.
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And for you so yeah i'm
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yeah very much on the same page there i always have
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a branded sweatshirt to get
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in the room and then i've got my my
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branded logo named tech tees
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so they're either in my colors which is a sort of teal
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or black and white always be black jobbers or
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black leggings pair of black trainers so i don't
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think i would feel professional if i were to wear any
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old color of anything because I could just be the next person
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waiting for oh do you know where the therapist is oh yeah
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no it's me you know it's I feel I want to look the
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part and also I mean I like I'm proud of my business and
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my logo and the name and and I've got I've got.
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The rain jacket that I wore today with the logo on the
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back and if I'm at the supermarket and I've got my logo on
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I'm my ambassador for my own brand so I
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think one of the arguments and I apologize Martin for
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the sake of 30 minute podcast there will be some more false dichotomies coming
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along and we can't go down that road of yeah but
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anyway it's true i'm giving like a this or this and it was not really
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this or this but i think one of the
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worries martin's got and he's i'm sure he'll correct me if i'm wrong is
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that maybe we it's interesting
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because both of you have talked about how you feel and that's
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important as a therapist you want to feel confident in what you
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do and therefore you're going to give a better service
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but i think he is also
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interested in the people who well
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one the club that the therapist who thinks just because they're wearing all
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the gear they might still have no idea and it gives a false sense of security
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and it can maybe steer them away from being better therapists because they think
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they've got it all because they're wearing the uniform and the second thing
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which i'd like to hear from you from is is that maybe you.
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The actual individual, the human, as he's mentioned in the comments in front
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of you, might, I don't know, one, they might be a little bit intimidated by
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the fact you're wearing a uniform or they might not feel quite so relaxed and
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not allow the layers to come off.
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And they might do that more if you kind of reflect them a little bit.
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So if the person comes in, they're very chilled out and they're wearing kind
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of just relaxed clothes, then maybe if you came in a little bit more relaxed as well,
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almost kind of like reflecting what they are, then
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they might open up a bit more and as a result the
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patient outcome and the service which you managed to the
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therapeutic alliance would be better basically so so yeah that's basically what
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i think he would be getting at how does that resound with you guys firstly on
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behalf of therapists dressing up and thinking they've got it all and relying
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on that as opposed to knowledge is that possible you're gonna go first Sarah?
17:03
Oh, I'm saying it's on me, so there you go. Yeah, I wordfully shushed me.
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That's what you normally do to Anna Maria, isn't it?
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I can see Martin's written a comment saying power dynamics.
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I don't feel like that's the case. I mean, to me, it's no different to go in,
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to a supermarket and they're wearing their uniform there.
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It's just about, for me, it's about branding and identity.
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And I think that the client can then identify you through that I don't think
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there's anything wrong with that but again it's coming back to the comfort again
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I wouldn't feel like that I was portraying a professional,
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persona if I was just wearing my normal clothes, it just wouldn't feel quite right.
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But then I come from a background where I very much had, like vet nursing,
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we had the bottle green dress.
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It's awful. But that was our identity. That's our professionism.
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So I don't think it's about a power play.
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I think it's more about, yeah, identity, branding identity, your identity.
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And for me, that appearance is important to me.
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I would want to go and, if I was seeing somebody else, I would expect them to
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also make an effort. It's just about making an effort.
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Sal, do you think potentially, maybe not with yourselves but do you think there
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could be a power play used sometimes by clinicians dressing themselves up?
18:26
I don't know about power play as such but I would think that if I were to go
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into my own studio wearing a tunic people would think, oh, she's going to do a little sweet.
18:38
Twiddly-twiddly massage and facial and that sort of thing I feel the level that
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I want to show of what I wear is going to show movement, activity,
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rehab, that sort of thing.
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If I were to be in a smart ironed shirt, I would feel people think I'm a bit
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rigid maybe and not necessarily into the, let me help you move,
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let me lift this, let me do that.
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I think it's functionality in professionalism, but not looking like I'm a PhD in this or,
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yeah, I want to show the level that I'm at, but be comfortable enough to not
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feel I'm above my pay grade.
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It's very nice. You both definitely,
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giving a very good argument to why you wear what you wear.
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And it seems like the reason for you wearing what you wear is already putting
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the patient first and thinking how they're going to interpret it and see it
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and encouraging them. It's nothing to do with you feeling more important.
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I guess some people do, maybe more in the circles that Martin moves around with.
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And I can, I imagine there are, there's people who, clinicians who
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do wear things and they
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will they will to kind of almost like
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they're metaphorically speaking they have a bigger seat than you so
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they're kind of like setting up that situation where they're talking down to
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you instructing you and just feeling superior i don't know whether it
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happens less in our kind of hands on the more hands on you get maybe it's less
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of that case although then i'm speaking for soft tissue therapists maybe in
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the world of chiropractors for example where somebody's coming for 50 minutes
20:15
and paying an awful lot of money maybe it's a money thing i don't know but i
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feel We know that there's a hierarchy,
20:21
undertones through the industry anyway, not just soft tissue therapy,
20:26
but the whole private healthcare,
20:29
hands-on, money therapy, whatever you want to call it, osteopaths,
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there is a certain hierarchy and it's not with everybody.
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I don't think it comes down to the clothes you wear, it's just there and this
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is probably a whole other subject on its own.
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But we're all there for the same reason to help the client and we do it the
20:46
best that we can and we work collaboratively.
20:49
Good point okay i also think
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that if i were to be wearing a white coat like a
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proper high you know high class consultant i'd
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i'd feel like i was faking it more than i currently am you know it's it does
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make a big difference what you'd wear as to what people would expect from you
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as well if i'm in some scrubs that would be a different thing too yeah oh god
21:13
martin's it's great just because it's like having a Q&A with Martin himself.
21:19
Literally, we're doing that. So Martin said here, well, there are studies that
21:21
show that people are ready to pay more for an intervention done than a proper
21:24
office with the right posters in it. So maybe just be dumb.
21:27
That's true. I think people, I don't know. Maybe I've got the two wrong guests here.
21:32
These isn't, I don't think there's
21:34
more out to it. I couldn't find more altruistic guests than you two.
21:37
And maybe that's representative of the ST School and the Hands-On Hub. I don't know.
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But it's a tricky one. But yeah, we recognize that some people do that.
21:44
And if anything wrong with healthcare is when that is in play and people are
21:48
purposely trying to impress the client so they can charge more and that sort of stuff.
21:52
So let's move on to a connected subject, but I think maybe where there's more debate of language.
22:00
Okay. So we've said we dress to feel confident and to let the client know what
22:04
they're going to expect and that sort of stuff.
22:08
Martin was quite vocal in the language side of stuff. So if your client,
22:13
for example, is swearing a little bit.
22:16
He would swear with them in the argument that it would help therapeutic alliance.
22:22
But then he's been picked up on the fact his boss has heard and come through
22:25
saying, what are you doing? You can't talk to clients like that. That's crazy.
22:28
That's not what this company, it's not professional at all. How do you deal with that?
22:32
Well, with me, I mean, I've got a whole range of people from a 75-year-old little
22:37
old lady to this evening only a couple of rugby lads from Thrama's Rugby Club.
22:42
They're going to drop the F-bomb frequently if they say my needs killing me.
22:46
I'll say yeah it can be a bit of a bastard but you know that's about as far
22:50
as I'll go I won't go that much further but I wouldn't bring it up I wouldn't
22:56
start with swear words if they're doing it say three times then I think they
23:02
feel comfortable enough to hear a little bit to,
23:06
come up onto their level almost but not not completely on their level but yeah
23:11
I think there is the therapeutic alliance thing there that does a level of acceptance
23:17
to a degree. Good answer. I like it. Sarah?
23:21
Oh, Sarah's on mute again, sorry. I think the echo thing's sorted if I put one
23:25
of you on mute. Sarah, what about you?
23:28
I think it comes back to communication and you read your clients.
23:34
Yeah, you listen to how they're talking to you.
23:36
So like Sal, I've got anything from a 95-year-old lady who very much wouldn't
23:40
swear with to children to a
23:44
client in this morning who's Irish and swore pretty much every other word.
23:47
Doesn't offend me at all and I know
23:50
him quite well anyway so we just that's just how we communicated and it was
23:54
fine but I wouldn't I wouldn't assume that I tend to be led by how they talk
23:58
and then maybe maybe like you're right if I swear and they'll yeah or no I don't
24:03
like that you tell you read the room don't you you can tell from the client and I just it's I think,
24:09
in the podcast the word chameleon was used
24:12
and I think that's very much the case it's not that you're not being authentic you
24:16
just tend to gel or
24:19
so we can come back to biosynchrony a bit i suppose can't with our
24:22
language that we just tend to you tend to fit in with each
24:25
client you find your commonality find your common ground and
24:28
you go from there so if that's with language and that's fine so
24:32
i don't i don't and also i guess i've got the i i have my own business i don't
24:37
have to worry about what other people think i think that's a big factor isn't
24:40
it would it be different if you were because both of you work alone don't you
24:44
you haven't got other people you might appear well i am in another clinic yeah
24:49
i am in another clinic at the moment but i don't know if i would.
24:52
Act any differently because i i treat the client as i would treat my clients at home.
24:59
So i don't change it up but equally you wouldn't hear me like shouting
25:02
and swearing so is there any chance they're in the
25:04
room with me is there any chance that anybody outside the room or anyone else
25:08
who maybe owns the room or you lease it from whatever would hear you if you
25:12
were swearing inside no because i'm upstairs out the way so they probably won't
25:15
hear me so that's the question i wonder whether in a multidisciplinary clinic
25:18
where you have got other therapists other clients and and you are representing
25:22
the company even when the doors,
25:25
i think yeah i think that's a little different isn't it and i think you do have
25:28
to you have to think about are there people outside that other clients that
25:31
can hear has he gone looks like sounds from me it disappeared yeah so you have
25:37
to think about other clients that that can hear,
25:39
and i guess you wouldn't want to be judged but yeah be
25:42
as authentic as you can be professional you disappeared
25:45
i carried on talking yeah you judge it but you're right if you've got other
25:50
people listening outside the door then maybe you just need to rein it in a little
25:53
bit because you don't know how they would react to it so it's all about and
26:00
yeah i think i think that that word it Depends is going to be quite common in here.
26:07
Well, like Martin said, we're dealing with humans and they're all different.
26:09
We are all different. So treat everyone as an individual. I think so.
26:15
One of the things I questioned with Martin on the actual show was –,
26:20
You've got a client who swears a lot, so you start swearing,
26:23
you're kind of getting chummy with them and it's helping.
26:25
And then maybe as humans do, they don't get better and they start getting annoyed.
26:30
Okay. Because we haven't got all the answers and it might be something to do
26:33
with factors which are out of your control that they're doing in their own lives.
26:35
And it starts getting a bit pear-shaped and sour and the relationship goes and they disappear.
26:40
And then now you're suddenly the therapist that swears a lot and they're telling
26:46
everybody, oh God, I'm going to say it right point in mouth.
26:48
I wouldn't believe what she said the other day.
26:50
Sal said my knee was a bastard. I couldn't believe it when she came out with
26:53
that. That sort of stuff, you know.
26:54
Do we have to think of that? Do we have to think that, do we have to maintain
26:58
those professional boundaries and realise that there's therapeutic alliance,
27:02
but then there's, when they go their own way, it could have repercussions?
27:08
I don't think I'd get to that level. No, I don't think I would either.
27:12
No, it's, everyone gets treated individually, all got different personalities.
27:19
And you'll have some people that simply don't like you. It's a different,
27:23
we have different clients for different therapists.
27:25
There's always somebody that will match up with you and somebody that doesn't, and that's okay.
27:28
But I don't think it would get to that level where I would be that offensive
27:32
that people would complain about me because you're, otherwise you communicate.
27:36
There's something wrong with the communication, if that's the case.
27:38
But we all get people that we just don't click with. They don't click with us.
27:41
We don't click with them. That's okay.
27:43
I've got an unprofessional story here, if you want it.
27:46
Oh give us an unprofessional story yeah yeah
27:49
so one client sent me a meme of a
27:53
of a farty banana where where
27:56
one says you know that was completely natural
27:59
the banana says that wasn't me that was you so in in that whole farting scenario
28:05
i brought in a whoopee cushion to his next appointment and whilst he was prone
28:10
i gave the whoopee cushion a squeeze and he couldn't stop laughing for about 10 minutes and why not.
28:21
I'm waiting to hear how this all went wrong terribly, but it didn't. He's still a client.
28:25
That's fine. Okay, yes, that works. It's a bit of fun, but then you probably
28:28
know him well enough to do that sort of thing, and that's fine.
28:31
Yeah, it was probably 10 treatments in. 10 treatments in. That's fine.
28:35
You get to know each other, don't you? So you can know what's okay and what's not okay.
28:41
Let's have a look at what people in the comments... Let me just scroll up a
28:44
little bit and see in between the multiple comments from Martin.
28:49
And I'm just going to squeeze in between them and see what people have come up with.
28:52
If you haven't written any comments yet, we'd love to hear from you,
28:54
whether you've got any strong views on this.
28:58
Apologies for the echoes. I don't know why they come sometimes and sometimes
29:01
I don't. Let me just mute.
29:04
Sorry, you guys. Just mute you guys while I'm talking. There we go. Right.
29:08
We talked about power dynamics. Nikki Mansfield says, I think if a non-medical
29:13
professional wears scrubs, that would be dishonest.
29:15
Possible power play going on there. casual branded sportswear suits
29:18
our profession non-aggressive and smart makes perfect
29:21
sense steve kirby says matt uniform is important folks know
29:25
your logo they trust people ask questions and
29:28
pick your gray matter i have found people becoming patients skill ability can
29:31
come over better the bottom line is patient care ending with good clinical outcomes
29:35
so arguing for a uniform there is steve kirby martin says i agree and disagree
29:42
but again yeah 30 minutes we can't do agreeing and disagree.
29:46
Cecily Hissop says, I absolutely have clients that I can swear with,
29:49
but we have trust and confidence in each other to feel comfortable in doing
29:51
so, but I know not to push it with certain people.
29:55
And then Martin has said here, and I think that's the main crutch of Martin
29:58
is authenticity is the most important thing.
30:03
And I get it as well, but I don't think, I think again, that depends on who you are.
30:10
It's interesting. I don't quite get, we mentioned this off before,
30:14
won't we, Sarah, that if you argue for authenticity, then that suggests that
30:18
if you're the sort of person who swears, you should swear all the time and not hold it back.
30:22
That's you being yourself. And the argument there is, if you're being yourself,
30:26
the patient's going to know who you are and everything's going to be better.
30:29
But we're also saying that you should be a chameleon and reflect the patient
30:32
in front of you, which means you can't be 100% authentic. Can you?
30:37
Can you? But then we do that in life. It's not just with our clients or our patients.
30:41
We do that with people that we meet in life it's not you're a chameleon to your
30:46
friends to your family it's so is that not authentic?
30:52
Yeah, I'll swear like a trooper with my father, but with his 95-year-old sister, I'm sweet as can be.
30:59
Yeah, my mum, I swear. My dad, you definitely don't swear.
31:02
It's just you go with what you – it's communication. It's social interaction.
31:08
It's what is acceptable for one person isn't acceptable for another.
31:12
And that's, I guess, and as human beings, we want to be liked,
31:14
don't we? So we fit in. But that's what we do.
31:17
I'm going to say that's probably what we do.
31:20
Not genetically but how we've evolved because
31:24
we want to be liked and we need to be together and that's how
31:27
we survive so isn't it isn't yeah isn't it normal so we are doing in life what
31:33
we're doing in our clinic and to me that's authentic yeah i would agree i think
31:39
well yeah i think i was setting that up as a as like as if there was a barrier
31:44
but i think being authentic.
31:47
Doesn't necessarily mean you are the same way with everybody.
31:52
That's not being authentic. Being authentic human is changing your personality
31:56
and everything as and when the case comes. That's being authentic because it's natural.
32:00
I'm just getting a message that my battery's wearing off, so I'm not quite sure
32:03
what could be. There we go.
32:05
Okay, so let me just have a little look. If any, I've got some messages here.
32:10
No, that's just Nikki talking about. I think she's got a fetish for blue scrubs.
32:13
We want to go down that road there, Nikki.
32:16
I've got an interesting one. I had a client who, he was elderly,
32:19
and he didn't realise that I had tattoos, but he commented that he found them
32:24
really common, etc, etc, all the stuff you would expect.
32:28
And I was like, well, I've got tattoos, so is that what you think of me? And I just brought it up.
32:34
Actually, interestingly, I haven't seen him since, but I'm okay with that.
32:37
But he made a judgement because I had tattoos. So is that unprofessional?
32:42
That's interesting. Or is that me being authentic?
32:45
So, he didn't know you had a tattoo. No, because they're all sort of... You did have a tattoo.
32:51
And then he hasn't come back because he thinks you're dirt. That's okay.
32:55
He wasn't the right person for me and I wasn't the right person for him.
32:58
I think that's important as well. I didn't come back because you broached the
33:00
subject of, would you not come back if you saw no?
33:04
Yeah, well, that was the thing. I could have kept quiet, but actually I was
33:06
like, well, hang on a sec.
33:08
You're judging them, but actually does that mean that you would judge me?
33:12
And I just thought I just wanted to call him out on it.
33:15
Politely. That was polite. That's an interesting one. That was interesting.
33:20
And I think, and Martin mentioned that in that episode, one of the things to
33:24
take away from it is you're not going to get on with everybody.
33:28
And if you're being true to yourself, which you were, you felt inside this person
33:33
is kind of judging people with tattoos.
33:34
And you thought, well, I've got a tattoo. I'm going to tell him about it.
33:37
So you were being authentic in that sense.
33:39
And the fact is, for whatever reason, if he doesn't like that,
33:43
then he's gone his own way. But that's, that's cool because sometimes if we're
33:47
being authentic and just speaking, being ourselves, then we're not going to get on with everybody.
33:51
And that's what Joe, wonderful Joe Turner mentioned the other day as well in
33:55
the podcast is you, as a clinician, when you're looking after yourself,
33:58
you have to realize that you're not going to get on with everyone.
34:00
You've got to be ready to, to maybe refer somebody onto somebody else without
34:04
any arguments or bad feeling.
34:06
Just say, I think you might get on better with this clinician here and blah, blah, blah.
34:09
And Martin mentioned that as well. So have any of you done that?
34:13
No referred on yet i mean i i do have a tattoo but my my clothing and i kind
34:21
of chose it to cover it actually for professionalism chose this the sleeve lengths for it,
34:27
martin martin what do you think of that martin sal covering up her tattoos to
34:32
be professional whereas mine are all my previous.
34:37
Nice south so what was these so there's a
34:40
throwback i think from my before i i joined this part
34:43
this industry i used to work on super yachts and
34:46
you're not quite like below decks that sort
34:49
of and it was a no visible tattoos
34:52
was was criteria so i
34:55
think in my head that stuck a little bit of i'm gonna
34:58
get judged for it and and yeah i think
35:01
i felt it looked better hidden away i mean it's nothing sorted yeah it's from
35:08
my own personal life yeah yeah and again i mean that's strange word authentic
35:16
i'm not quite getting my head around but if that's what you feel inside,
35:19
and you and you think that's better then that's what you should do isn't it
35:22
because that's you that's you being an authentic person and,
35:26
Yeah, you shouldn't fight for the right to just have your tattoos out and show
35:29
if, because that's not authentic.
35:32
If inside something's telling you, you know, you should be doing that.
35:35
Just a judgment thing, isn't it? Yeah.
35:39
And Martin said here, and that is the problem. Expand, please,
35:42
Martin. We're getting close to the time now, but I'd like to hear about that.
35:45
Is Sal right? Is she being authentic by covering up her tattoos?
35:48
Because she feels that wouldn't be, would you say you would feel that's not
35:50
professional then, Sal?
35:51
Would you use that word? Not necessarily not professional, but similar to Sarah's
35:56
instance where somebody had a judgment.
35:59
And I think if nine out of ten people didn't have a problem,
36:04
but one did, and I was wearing this T-shirt rather than this T-shirt, I don't know.
36:09
There's something in it, but I don't think I would necessarily lose the client.
36:12
But if I did, similarly, not a great fit.
36:17
Interesting. Right. 8.40 already.
36:22
If you have listened to this and you've got things which
36:25
you'd like to mention and talk about then don't let the show stop here best place
36:28
is probably go to youtube and leave you your thoughts there
36:31
in terms of advice for maybe
36:34
therapists are not quite sure what do you think what i
36:38
go back again what words of advice would you to give therapists out there which
36:45
you think they might be doing something they could improve on with regards to
36:49
this whole professionalism debate what would your advice be to the younger therapist
36:53
maybe or the less experienced therapist.
36:56
Maybe a little feedback saying if you saw from there
36:59
a feedback thing to clients to say how did you
37:02
think what do you think of the experience anything you could
37:05
suggest to to make your next visit
37:09
or oh yeah what like a frequently asked questions
37:12
kind of thing what did you expect here what would
37:15
you like to see general impressions that's so
37:19
cool and it sounds so obvious when you say it rather than
37:22
trying to work out the fantastic plan to be a
37:24
chameleon and reflect your just ask your client
37:27
what they prefer is it okay did you mind you
37:30
know yeah brilliant that makes sense
37:33
and Sarah for you I think asking friends and family can be helpful what you
37:39
know their opinions different generations so don't just ask ask your close friends
37:44
you know ask different generations of people because they'll have different
37:46
opinions you know on how your clinic it looks, how you look.
37:51
It doesn't mean you have to take it all, but you can take critique and just
37:55
take a few ideas, I suppose.
37:57
It's not to fit into a mould. It's just, I don't know, give the best that you can.
38:03
Yeah. Again, I think you too. I'm just nodding because I think we're very much on the same page.
38:12
But it's something which... I've got to kill that echo, honestly.
38:16
I knew everything was going to go wrong tonight. Let's try and turn everything off.
38:20
There you go. I think for the therapist out there who is maybe spending a lot
38:27
of time in making their clinic look professional, in inverted commas,
38:31
and wearing a dress and clothes that is professional,
38:35
make sure that you're not, and I think this is what Martin's going about,
38:39
make sure that you're not following a protocol of what professional looks like
38:43
that might not, which might inhibit you from being yourself.
38:47
And it might mean that you look and come
38:49
across as uncomfortable because you're trying to be someone you're not and also
38:53
don't let that idea of professionalism eclipse
38:57
what the human being in
39:00
front of you might want because again they might
39:03
not open up they might feel intimidated they might simply
39:06
just not come back to you because your idea of professional was not
39:09
you know the right ecosystem for
39:13
healthcare for them so again communication looking out
39:16
reading language and all that so maybe that's what i pick up from martin i think
39:19
the message and it's something which i think hopefully some therapists could
39:22
benefit from but in the day it seems to just pull down to communication i love
39:26
both sal and sarah's responses of talk to your client and also talk to other
39:30
people get ideas there's another little thing here i'd like to add.
39:34
So i worked somewhere for a little while where a
39:38
client who had seen another person in this premises
39:41
mentioned that this other person had
39:44
obviously eaten garlic on their lunch break and i didn't
39:47
really think that was very professional that that sprung back at
39:50
me so it's not just what you wear you're the
39:53
language you use it could be what you had for
39:56
lunch you know if you if you stink like
39:59
garlic or body odor or something even
40:02
coffee that's also part of not being
40:05
professional i mean if yes you if you had a
40:08
cigarette or something you'd probably have some mouthwash but yeah there's
40:12
there's other elements that isn't yeah yeah no
40:16
it's true there's a lot to it isn't there and yeah it's
40:20
not just conforming to what someone tells you is right it's
40:23
a lot of it is just yeah thinking how the other person
40:26
might might find it right great communication i do like the word he used fluid
40:31
a lot fluidity so i mean that kind of encompasses the idea of yeah you do need
40:37
to change and think about things and modify your appearance and your language
40:41
and everything according to the individual that's in front of you.
40:46
Yeah, but there are going to be some guidelines which just kind of make common
40:48
sense, I think. And they're going to vary depending on who the therapist is and who the patient is.
40:53
Great. A lovely reflection on that. These days, Martin Christensen is not a physio anymore.
40:59
He went back to where he came from originally, which was, I think this is why,
41:04
because as he said in the episode,
41:06
Martin started off by studying sociology and I think it was anthropology and
41:12
learning a lot of that and human nature and all, obviously.
41:15
And then he went into physiotherapy and was surprised about how in healthcare,
41:20
the rules for looking after humans are totally different than what a lot of
41:24
sociology and anthropology and that suggests, which is where this interest came from.
41:28
But I would still recommend that you do definitely follow Martin,
41:32
particularly on Twitter.
41:34
The Physio Matters now has turned in... Sorry, Physio Matters, slipped the tongue.
41:38
The physio confession has now turned into the ex-physio confession which is
41:43
equally as interesting some of the things that martin doesn't miss it's all
41:46
very much things which a lot of people,
41:49
feel and maybe don't have you know worried about saying so i would definitely
41:53
follow martin on twitter for
41:55
some of that and of course listen to all the episodes that are there of,
42:00
the physio confession podcast friday physio confession
42:03
podcast if you google that you'll find it straight away lots of interesting
42:06
episodes lots of guests there's four there was
42:09
a four episodes season on professionalism with
42:13
jerry durham i think adam meekins made it on there as well and some other people
42:17
and that's well worth listening to if this subject is interested to you and
42:20
and obviously martin's still finished off his thesis on the topic so i'm looking
42:25
forward to some information on i think he's struggling reaching it but when
42:29
he finally does be interesting if he himself reaches a conclusion.
42:32
So yeah, follow Martin on that. You can follow him on Twitter at martin underscore
42:36
nekali, which is N-E-K-K-O-L-A-I.
42:40
But as always, we'll put that on the notes.
42:42
And for Sal Martin and Sarah Jones, Sal, if people are interested in what you've
42:46
been saying and they'd like to follow you and connect with you,
42:50
then the website for you is?
42:53
Massagemotion.co.uk. Fantastic, Massagemotion.co.uk. And then people can follow
42:59
you across social media.
43:00
As massage.motion.sal. We'll put that in the links as well. That's on Facebook and Instagram.
43:08
Yeah, perfect. And then for you, Sarah, website for you is...
43:13
Oh, let's take Sarah off of you again.
43:16
It's affinitybodyworks.co.uk. So affinity with an A.
43:21
And that's where I am on Facebook and Instagram. I don't use X anymore. I've come off that.
43:26
Yeah, I'm fairly infrequent with my posting, but I am there.
43:30
And if anyone wants to contact me, that's the best. Either Instagram or Facebook's fine.
43:34
That's wonderful. And both of you are very active in the Hands On Hub,
43:38
which is a private group for people who are kind of connected with and aware
43:41
of and have studied with the ST School and the Hanson Hub at Therapy Expo.
43:45
So you can find some great debates and information going on there.
43:49
And also the ST School, which is at the ST School across social media as well,
43:55
where you will definitely hear lots from Sal and Sarah and also Anna Maria Maciej,
43:58
who is going to be here tonight.
44:00
Right, that's it, people. Thank you so much for joining us, people who joined
44:04
us live. Apologies for the echoing and stuff that was going on this evening.
44:07
I'm not sure. That's happened for ages.
44:09
I have to run through my system with a tooth comb and see what was going on.
44:12
But maybe if you would like to be a guest on the show to chat about a past episode.
44:15
It's that simple. Sal and Sarah, was it simple?
44:18
It's fine because you can't see other people.
44:23
It's absolutely fine. Apart from the swearing that's coming down the side from Martin.
44:28
It's so unprofessional. And that he seems to be in love with Sal as well.
44:31
Yeah, it's so unprofessional.
44:32
But anyway, yeah, it is great. And it's quite cleansing as well.
44:37
It's quite therapeutic. It's good.
44:40
Obviously, most people, they will feel more confident after to think, well, that was great.
44:43
That was easier than I thought. and it can open up all sorts of
44:46
avenues and explorations for yourself and going on
44:49
other podcasts and speaking publicly more and all sorts
44:52
of wonderful things like that so if you are interested you can find me
44:54
on social media at run chat live or at uk
44:57
underscore sta and we'll have a little discussion right what we've got coming
45:01
up next week next week we are going to have daniel williams is in good old daniel
45:08
big daniel williams um who a lot of you will know through Mike Grice and the
45:13
Movement Education School and everything.
45:16
Daniel Williams is a movement therapist and educator. He's going to be reflecting
45:19
on taking us way back now.
45:21
He's taking us back to episode 64, which was recorded with Dr.
45:25
Gary Mendoza in 2021. And it's all about motivational interviewing for client
45:30
communication, which is a wonderful topic.
45:33
I'm really looking forward to that. I'm really glad that Daniel has chosen that.
45:37
Daniel's actually chosen that because he's actually taken over from Dr.
45:41
Gary Mendoza with the stages of change courses in motivational interview, MI for short.
45:47
So it's going to be really interesting catching up with Daniel Williams and
45:50
hearing him reflect on that episode with Dr.
45:53
Gary Mendoza. So if you are interested in joining us, then that will be next Tuesday, April 22nd.
45:59
YouTube's probably best, but if you don't like YouTube for whatever reason,
46:02
then we are also on the open group on Facebook for the Sports Therapy Association.
46:07
But I'd just like to thank once again Sarah Jones thank you for agreeing to
46:12
be with us thank you and Sal Martin the fantastic Sal Martin for jumping in
46:17
at the last minute thank you so much and everyone who joined us live really
46:22
appreciate it and of course Martin the great Martin Nicolai M.
46:25
Alphurs and Christensen thanks for joining us here and lending us your time
46:30
once again to share ask Matt about the no we won't ask about that particular
46:35
tactic thank you Martin all right people take care of each other and hopefully
46:39
you some of you'll be able to join us next tuesday eight o'clock bye.
46:42
Music.