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The Seven Words That Saved My Life with Jessica Hoppe · QUESTION EVERYTHING

0:04
Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
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Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
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Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
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Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. Hello, I hope you're having
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Speaker 1: a wonderful day. I am releasing two episodes this week.
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Speaker 1: I felt like the end of the year was coming up,
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Speaker 1: and I have one episode that is really introspective and
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Speaker 1: interesting and serious, and then another episode that was like
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Speaker 1: really fun, all about pop culture and like holding a
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Speaker 1: mirror up to where we are and where we're going
0:45
Speaker 1: in culture. And I didn't know which one to release,
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Speaker 1: so I thought, you know what, this is going to
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Speaker 1: be like a choose your own adventure. We'll release both
0:54
Speaker 1: at the same time, and you can listen to one,
0:56
Speaker 1: you can listen to both whatever you're in the mood for,
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Speaker 1: whatever you feel called to do, called to listen to,
1:02
Speaker 1: you know.
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Speaker 2: So I'm going to jump in.
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Speaker 1: What do you think of when someone says addiction? Does
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Speaker 1: your mind immediately go to a substance, a thing, a
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Speaker 1: behavior and ilicit something?
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Speaker 2: So then how do you battle this addiction?
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Speaker 1: Reach deep inside to find the power within yourself to
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Speaker 1: come out the other side clear liberated. What if the
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Speaker 1: addiction isn't about the thing and the solution is not
1:32
Speaker 1: from the inside out. A recent Huffington Post article talks
1:36
Speaker 1: about the idea of addiction transference. It differentiates the habit,
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Speaker 1: whether it's alcohol, drugs, or an eating disorder, with the
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Speaker 1: idea of addiction itself.
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Speaker 2: It says in the article quote.
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Speaker 1: If you pick up a weed by the leaf, it's
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Speaker 1: just going to grow back because the roots are still there.
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Speaker 2: So what about those roots?
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Speaker 1: Well? In a well known parable of farmer scatters, these
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Speaker 1: seeds some land on a path, rocks, thorns, and good soil.
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Speaker 1: As expected, only the seeds in good soil thrive. Should
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Speaker 1: the seeds on rocks and thorns just find the power
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Speaker 1: within themselves to grow like those in fertile soil. Jessica
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Speaker 1: Happy's memoir First in the Family, A Story of Survival, recovery,
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Speaker 1: and the American Dream, explores this very idea. Her story
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Speaker 1: isn't just about substance abuse, It's about addressing the roots.
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Speaker 1: A Latin writer and advocate, Jessica posted glam lifestyle images
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Speaker 1: on her Instagram feed for her online community Nueva York.
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Speaker 1: But beneath the surface, she was battling addiction after a
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Speaker 1: blackout night, a stranger saved her life by asking this
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Speaker 1: pivotal question, do you know what's happening to you? Jessica
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Speaker 1: said that question reframe the shame and the pain she'd
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Speaker 1: been carrying. Her story challenges us to confront the roots
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Speaker 1: of our pain. It's not about becoming someone new, Jessica says,
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Speaker 1: building the bridge back to yourself, finding your truth and
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Speaker 1: true liberation. Jessica happy, welcome to Pretty Smart.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. I'm so happy to.
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Speaker 1: Be here, first in the family. I love a great title.
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Speaker 3: Thank you.
3:19
Speaker 1: This is a great title.
3:21
Speaker 3: Thank you very much. I'm very proud of it.
3:23
Speaker 1: I want to know how the book tour and book
3:26
Speaker 1: experience has been going, because off camera you were telling
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Speaker 1: me it didn't quite go as expected.
3:32
Speaker 3: No, I think you know, everyone says like, you don't
3:36
Speaker 3: know what will happen when you put a book into
3:38
Speaker 3: the world, But I sort of what they say is
3:42
Speaker 3: that I arrived at publishing through non traditional pathways, right,
3:46
Speaker 3: which means I didn't go the MFA route. I really
3:51
Speaker 3: didn't know how. You know, it's an industry like many
3:55
Speaker 3: that is highly gate kept and so really sort of
3:59
Speaker 3: hustled my and I don't want to encourage hustle culture
4:02
Speaker 3: as in like you need to be hustling twenty four
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Speaker 3: to seven and working for capitalism. I mean, you have
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Speaker 3: to sort of figure things out when there's not a
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Speaker 3: roadmap there for you. And that's one of the challenges
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Speaker 3: of first in the family, right, is that you kind
4:15
Speaker 3: of you're on your own a little bit. And so
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Speaker 3: if this was going to be my dream and this
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Speaker 3: is going to be my chosen path to be a writer,
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Speaker 3: to become an author, then I was going to have
4:26
Speaker 3: to do the legwork. I was going to have to,
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Speaker 3: you know, embarrassingly go up to people and ask questions
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Speaker 3: and beg for emails and search and pitch and so
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Speaker 3: it's been a very long journey, but I think that
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Speaker 3: equipped me, prepared me really well for the unpredictability of,
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Speaker 3: you know, what it can be to publish a book
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Speaker 3: and maybe not have the welcoming sort of sense that
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Speaker 3: people really want to support your message and get behind it.
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Speaker 3: It's definitely going to be more of an uphill battle.
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Speaker 1: And when you say you haven't felt the welcoming, it's
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Speaker 1: because of what.
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Speaker 3: Mainstream media has a way that they would like to
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Speaker 3: articulate this message, and that is one that I you know,
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Speaker 3: take on in my book. Right, we would like like
5:17
Speaker 3: the overall culture narrative about addiction is that it's the
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Speaker 3: you know, problem of the individual. Something has gone wrong,
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Speaker 3: someone has become extreme or indulgent in their behavior. People
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Speaker 3: just want to do drugs. They love drugs, and and
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Speaker 3: you know they won't stop because they're selfish and it's
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Speaker 3: all about drugs and love drugs, and really that's you know,
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Speaker 3: that's I don't want to use the word ignorant, but
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Speaker 3: it's just it's very short sighted. It doesn't at all
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Speaker 3: encapsulate all of the factors. You know, we really don't.
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Speaker 3: There's no one formula for understanding how action will manifest substances,
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Speaker 3: disorder will manifest in a person. It's a constellation of factors,
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Speaker 3: you know, from the psychological, the physical, emotional, the spiritual,
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Speaker 3: social factors. So that was the one thing that I
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Speaker 3: learned right away because I definitely was like, like me,
6:17
Speaker 3: like what the fuck? Like like what I was shocked?
6:21
Speaker 3: My family was shocked, and so I realized right away
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Speaker 3: there was so much that I didn't understand, and there
6:26
Speaker 3: was so much information resources that were not available to
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Speaker 3: me or my family, and that too is by design.
6:34
Speaker 3: So when I dug into the book, I was like, okay,
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Speaker 3: So the dominant narrative here is that, you know, white
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Speaker 3: people recover. When white people use drugs, it's perceived as recreational.
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Speaker 3: If they do fall down a path where they must rehabilitate,
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Speaker 3: they're very much elevated and celebrated and thought of as
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Speaker 3: the image of recovery, and people of color are not
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Speaker 3: often given that same opportunity. We're not entitled to like
7:09
Speaker 3: narrate the story of our recovery and be honest about
7:12
Speaker 3: what God is in that position, because that has very
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Speaker 3: There's so much to do with the systems that are
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Speaker 3: at work and the process of criminalization and the racialization
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Speaker 3: of drugs. Right, So the story of drug use in
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Speaker 3: the Americas is one that is narrated by white supremacy.
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Speaker 3: We literally code drugs to associate them with people, you know,
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Speaker 3: like we change the name of cannabis to be marijuana
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Speaker 3: for a reason, and that rhetoric, that propaganda continues to
7:42
Speaker 3: this day. We're in the middle of election season, so
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Speaker 3: it's very triggering, it's extremely you know, it induces a
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Speaker 3: lot of fear and shame and stigma. So it goes
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Speaker 3: from that personal shame that you carry, that you've internalize
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Speaker 3: all these messages into this like codified policy, political way
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Speaker 3: of stigmatizing something that has very real and material consequences,
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Speaker 3: specifically for people of color. So if we're being used
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Speaker 3: to portray addiction in a way that reflects that policy,
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Speaker 3: that reflects that narrative that you know, people want in
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Speaker 3: mainstream media, then something like mine, my message is I
8:27
Speaker 3: guess not going to be the number one choice. It
8:31
Speaker 3: definitely is shaking the table a little bit, but I
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Speaker 3: think it's high time and it's just been too long
8:38
Speaker 3: and too toxic a narrative, and me and my family
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Speaker 3: are an example to constantly be portrayed as you know,
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Speaker 3: the drug addicts, the drug dealers, the derelics to a
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Speaker 3: point where you know, innocent people seeking asylum, which is
8:54
Speaker 3: their human right, are now being related to a fentanyl crisis.
9:00
Speaker 3: Even though the data, the statistics, the reports, like without
9:04
Speaker 3: it at indubitably contradict this, most people in this country
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Speaker 3: believe that to be true. Yeah, that migrants are bringing
9:11
Speaker 3: infentional into this country, you know, on their way to
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Speaker 3: poison your white teenagers in the suburbs, and that has
9:18
Speaker 3: an effect on people personally, and it cannot compare it,
9:23
Speaker 3: you know, what it does to people who are seeking asylum,
9:26
Speaker 3: but has a very long tail.
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Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think about the irony a little
9:31
Speaker 1: bit of the name of your book and the message,
9:34
Speaker 1: because like first in the family, if we're calling publishing
9:37
Speaker 1: a family, you're kind of first in the family here too,
9:40
Speaker 1: you know, like you're bringing a new message, and when
9:43
Speaker 1: you're the first, it doesn't always land well with people.
9:47
Speaker 1: It takes time.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, we were hoping, you know, my editor, my team,
9:52
Speaker 3: we were definitely thinking like, oh, the world is changing
9:55
Speaker 3: if people are waking up to a lot of things. Yeah,
9:58
Speaker 3: kind of right on time. No, we're not going just
10:02
Speaker 3: a little early. We're not going there, and we still
10:07
Speaker 3: you know, the painful thing for me is not that
10:11
Speaker 3: this is about my book and my success as an
10:14
Speaker 3: author and that people read my book and celebrate my book.
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Speaker 3: It's not about that. It's you know, when I really
10:21
Speaker 3: think about it, Sure, that was hurtful, you know, it
10:24
Speaker 3: was painful. It feels like a disappointment and that I
10:27
Speaker 3: internalize as a failure and I have to do the
10:29
Speaker 3: work to, you know, tell myself that that's not the case.
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Speaker 3: The more serious consequence is that this conversation continues to
10:40
Speaker 3: be narrated for us as opposed to buy us. And
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Speaker 3: we deserve that. So if you look at the history
10:47
Speaker 3: of narration, like you go all the way to who
10:50
Speaker 3: is known as like the grandfather of addiction narratives, like
10:54
Speaker 3: the grandfather of the addiction memoir is de Quincy, right,
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Speaker 3: and this is in the mid nineteen entry rates Confessions
11:01
Speaker 3: of an Opium Eater, and that style that legacy runs
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Speaker 3: through and really empowers and enables a long history of
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Speaker 3: white men, you know, from Burrows and Fitzgerald's and it
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Speaker 3: goes all the way you know, into modern times. And
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Speaker 3: now we have so many women who write on the
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Speaker 3: topic with great candor, you know, from Cat Arnell and
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Speaker 3: friends of mine like Leslie Jamison, and then you have
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Speaker 3: people like Lennon Doyle, you know, really really breaking open
11:31
Speaker 3: of the conversation, being very very honest and forthcoming about
11:36
Speaker 3: substance use disorder. Definitely in different styles.
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Speaker 1: There may I so I actually didn't even think that's
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Speaker 1: what your book was about.
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Speaker 3: M I don't.
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Speaker 1: I didn't find your book to be about drugs, drugs, alcohol,
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Speaker 1: your drinking, I love it, alcoholism in general. Your book
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Speaker 1: is about systems.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, thank you. And people are like, oh, system sounds
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Speaker 3: too broad, but like what I mean by that is
12:01
Speaker 3: the exactly one is the other word for it, because
12:04
Speaker 3: what I wanted to understand from myself. So you know,
12:08
Speaker 3: when I got the diagnosis, like I write in my book,
12:12
Speaker 3: like addiction, isn't the kind of diagnosis where people send
12:14
Speaker 3: thoughts and prayers. Yeah, so they set expectations. And you know,
12:19
Speaker 3: the dominant recovery program is Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous. So
12:25
Speaker 3: we know most people know that that's you know, established
12:29
Speaker 3: through a process of steps. You move through the program,
12:32
Speaker 3: you know, by following these twelve steps, and that is work.
12:35
Speaker 3: Yes on The first is to is to admit you
12:38
Speaker 3: have a problem. So I was willing to do all
12:42
Speaker 3: of that. And I'd been like deeply socialized into that,
12:45
Speaker 3: you know, that particular like U Milan, that humility, that
12:48
Speaker 3: self flagellation. If something went wrong in my life, it
12:51
Speaker 3: was my fault. You know, I was dumb, I was
12:54
Speaker 3: a failure, I was leazy. I wasn't doing it right.
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Speaker 3: I didn't get it, like all these stories really justified
12:59
Speaker 3: the way my life was progressing or or not progressing.
13:03
Speaker 3: I was. I wasn't feeling like I was able to
13:07
Speaker 3: make the same progress as my peers. I really felt
13:09
Speaker 3: like I was on that hamster reel. And I don't
13:12
Speaker 3: think I'm alone in that feeling. I think most people
13:15
Speaker 3: feel that way, you know, in a capitalistic system. That
13:18
Speaker 3: is what we're experiencing. But that was not related to
13:22
Speaker 3: what got me, you know, into that was a key
13:25
Speaker 3: player in the manifestation of my substitute disorder. I didn't
13:29
Speaker 3: connect those two. When I was able to understand really
13:32
Speaker 3: by looking at the history of my own family, I
13:35
Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, Like this makes absolute one sentence.
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Speaker 1: I don't want to give it away yet. Okay, can
13:44
Speaker 1: I ask you a question please? Okay. So you open
13:47
Speaker 1: your book with a disclaimer. You note that your story
13:50
Speaker 1: is fragmented, like memories, especially under the influence. So I'm
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Speaker 1: going to follow your lead and start in the middle
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Speaker 1: of the story. All right, Amazing, It's March twenty twenty,
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Speaker 1: it's the early days of the pandemic, the lockdown, and
14:03
Speaker 1: you post a video on social media that no longer exists.
14:08
Speaker 3: Did I take that away? To take it away archive.
14:12
Speaker 1: Can I on archive it just for the purpose of
14:15
Speaker 1: the podcast? Do you remember what you said?
14:17
Speaker 3: I was really shaky. I lost a family member and
14:21
Speaker 3: I was feeling, you know, that survivor's guilt. Yeah, and
14:25
Speaker 3: I just said I'm an alcoholic.
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Speaker 1: And you told the whole world.
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I told the whole world for the first time.
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Speaker 3: I was sober for like four years, and I've been
14:38
Speaker 3: just you know, anonymous.
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Speaker 1: And why did you decide to do that? Because you
14:43
Speaker 1: could have remained anonymous in it?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I asked myself why right, And in the beginning
14:49
Speaker 3: I thought it was fair. Yeah, because I'm the youngest child,
14:53
Speaker 3: I have a very you know, vibrant and just my
14:59
Speaker 3: mom is like the center of our universe. I was
15:02
Speaker 3: very deferential to her. I was very nurturing towards her.
15:06
Speaker 3: It really socialized me in a way, you know, from
15:09
Speaker 3: birth order to the role I played in my family.
15:12
Speaker 3: And I wanted things. I really wanted to take the
15:16
Speaker 3: load off my family's backs. You know, I did want
15:19
Speaker 3: to turn that page. I did want all those first
15:22
Speaker 3: in the family qualifiers and I was going for it.
15:27
Speaker 3: Identifying as an addict just I felt like that would
15:32
Speaker 3: just negate just erase everything. And I felt like if
15:36
Speaker 3: I identified this way, I would never be thought of
15:39
Speaker 3: as anything else, and it would define me. But I'd
15:43
Speaker 3: been doing the work to understand that it was like
15:45
Speaker 3: one aspect of who I am, and it was an
15:48
Speaker 3: incredibly human way of you know, moving through the world
15:52
Speaker 3: self medicating under the conditions that were living, you know
15:56
Speaker 3: under And I was coming to understand. I really believe
16:00
Speaker 3: that from myself, but I wasn't sharing it with anyone
16:04
Speaker 3: because you know, as I said in the beginning, like
16:07
Speaker 3: the way we talk about addiction is just it is
16:12
Speaker 3: no way acquainted with the facts. It is all influenced
16:17
Speaker 3: by the propaganda that we've all been fed. And I
16:19
Speaker 3: grew up in the eighties and the nineties, you know,
16:21
Speaker 3: the height of the war on drug propaganda, you know,
16:24
Speaker 3: Nancy Reagan and the bushes and which I write about
16:28
Speaker 3: in my book as well, you know, sort of internalizing
16:31
Speaker 3: taking that message in as a young kid sitting on
16:34
Speaker 3: the floor and then listening to my parents' response is
16:37
Speaker 3: and then revisiting those memories with what I know.
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Speaker 1: Now that part about listening to our parents' comments, oh yeah,
16:45
Speaker 1: is really powerful. I didn't think about that till I
16:48
Speaker 1: entered therapy because sometimes those comments actually I think have
16:52
Speaker 1: more to do with how we view ourselves than the
16:55
Speaker 1: comments said directly to us.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, and they just seem to kind of confirm, right.
17:00
Speaker 3: So if you're having a limited belief, you're having this
17:03
Speaker 3: awful feeling about yourself, and you hear that message going around,
17:07
Speaker 3: it just serves to kind of, yeah, prove it. And
17:11
Speaker 3: you know, as you continue to like repress and repress
17:13
Speaker 3: that pain and push it down and sort of it
17:16
Speaker 3: really becomes solid, you know. And that's what had happened
17:20
Speaker 3: to my pain and all the internalized narratives throughout my
17:23
Speaker 3: life and recovery did allow me to interrogate those release
17:28
Speaker 3: a lot of them, but I was in I soon
17:30
Speaker 3: found I was in the same loop that I always
17:33
Speaker 3: had been because it was just based on the same
17:36
Speaker 3: American model, the hierarchical model, the you know, achievement basis,
17:42
Speaker 3: like whether you're completing the steps and you're going to
17:44
Speaker 3: get the cash and prizes, you know, and that just
17:46
Speaker 3: wasn't working for me anymore. It wasn't going to work.
17:49
Speaker 3: It just wasn't sustainable for me. I needed something more.
17:52
Speaker 3: And so when my cousin died. I remember, you know,
17:57
Speaker 3: having run into my aunt and she mentioned that, you know,
18:01
Speaker 3: he was in the hospital and he had survived in overdose,
18:04
Speaker 3: and I was relieved, but as she stayed and talked
18:09
Speaker 3: to my mom about what he was struggling with, you know,
18:13
Speaker 3: I was just like, well, I'm not saying shit like
18:15
Speaker 3: both that's it, you know, like I'm not I'm not
18:18
Speaker 3: getting like, I don't want to get interest. I don't
18:21
Speaker 3: want to be hurt more than I am like just
18:24
Speaker 3: overhearing this, and I don't. I just didn't feel like
18:27
Speaker 3: I had the energy at that point to you know,
18:30
Speaker 3: debate with my aunt or shock my aunt or teach
18:33
Speaker 3: my aunt. And the fact that my mother was involved
18:36
Speaker 3: and sort of like just in agreement because we've all
18:39
Speaker 3: been in agreement about these ideas, right and we still are.
18:42
Speaker 3: So I didn't blame them, but I just didn't feel
18:46
Speaker 3: like I was strong enough in that moment. And as
18:48
Speaker 3: time went on and ultimately he died, I just felt
18:53
Speaker 3: guilty and I just didn't want to live a lie.
18:56
Speaker 3: And I was ready to sort of move through sharing
18:59
Speaker 3: that kind of memory and changing the language because the
19:02
Speaker 3: book isn't about like curing you know, substance use disorder
19:07
Speaker 3: from my family. It's never going to happen again. This
19:09
Speaker 3: is about coming to a place of consciousness about how
19:12
Speaker 3: it occurs, why it occurs, so that we can relieve
19:16
Speaker 3: ourselves of the shame that we've internalized by why you know,
19:19
Speaker 3: the idea is that it's our fault, you know, and
19:21
Speaker 3: that we're bad seed, and that the people in my
19:24
Speaker 3: family who have suffered from substance use disorder are just
19:27
Speaker 3: bad actors and they needed to be like ostracized in
19:30
Speaker 3: the corner, and we needed to put ourselves front and forward.
19:34
Speaker 3: And so it was. It was very hard because of
19:38
Speaker 3: course a great deal of harm comes with those life
19:41
Speaker 3: experiences and those family members, and I didn't want to
19:45
Speaker 3: appear as if like I'm condoning any of that, which
19:47
Speaker 3: I'm not, But I did want to, you know, put
19:52
Speaker 3: the blame precisely where it belonged, so that we could
19:56
Speaker 3: have a strategy or realistic strategy for how.
19:59
Speaker 1: To afford I think as you tell your story, you
20:04
Speaker 1: open up those systems so well. The event that pushed
20:07
Speaker 1: you into a recovery is something I've heard you talk
20:09
Speaker 1: about a lot, and you get emotional most times that
20:14
Speaker 1: you share it even now, even though yet like.
20:17
Speaker 3: I've managed, I'm so proud.
20:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, can you share what happened when the woman
20:27
Speaker 1: DMD you?
20:28
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. So I was going through a really
20:32
Speaker 3: hard time. But because I, you know, had no experience
20:36
Speaker 3: with substance substance use disorder, and you know, anyone who
20:39
Speaker 3: did was kind of swept under the rug or it
20:41
Speaker 3: was totally maligned. So I just didn't associate myself with
20:45
Speaker 3: anything like it. You know, it couldn't be My problem
20:48
Speaker 3: was you know, I was dating a bad guy. I
20:51
Speaker 3: couldn't you know, save enough money. I couldn't afford the
20:54
Speaker 3: things I needed. You know, I couldn't get you know,
20:57
Speaker 3: stable housing, and you know, I couldn't get the thing
21:00
Speaker 3: that I wanted. I couldn't get the respect and love
21:02
Speaker 3: of my partner. I couldn't, you know, seem to matter
21:08
Speaker 3: in this world. And so that was my problem, not
21:12
Speaker 3: the drugs, not the alcohol. And I was right. I
21:16
Speaker 3: was right about that that, you know, the drugs and alcohol. Well,
21:20
Speaker 3: alcohol is a drug. So from here forward, I'm going
21:23
Speaker 3: when I say drugs, know I mean alcohol as well.
21:25
Speaker 3: They're very powerful substances. Sure, and the way that our
21:29
Speaker 3: government you know, decides to not regulate and not make
21:32
Speaker 3: them safe to use and sort of compartmentalize them into
21:36
Speaker 3: pharmaceuticals and then street drugs when like they're the same thing,
21:41
Speaker 3: but the lack of regulation makes them very dangerous. So
21:44
Speaker 3: I don't want to like, you know, mince words, but
21:46
Speaker 3: the actual substances are neutral. What I learned in my
21:52
Speaker 3: research and what I believe for myself these indigenous practices
21:56
Speaker 3: and modalities, is that the substances are quite powerful. What
22:00
Speaker 3: they do is they really animate the pain that we
22:03
Speaker 3: feel from being separated from ourselves. So that very first
22:08
Speaker 3: moment as a child, when I, you know, was suffering
22:11
Speaker 3: with dyslexia and my peers sort of makes fun of me,
22:16
Speaker 3: and then she doesn't have this like it's not just taunting,
22:21
Speaker 3: it's racialized, right because she says, I look like, you know,
22:25
Speaker 3: an animal that has been used so much in racist tropes.
22:29
Speaker 3: Like the other risings happened immediately, and so that story
22:34
Speaker 3: began from the very beginning. And also witnessing my parents,
22:37
Speaker 3: so I wasn't quite quite a bit of pain and
22:40
Speaker 3: the substances we're really driving that cycle of behavior, and
22:45
Speaker 3: ultimately I was in a life or death situation in public,
22:51
Speaker 3: in the middle of the night, in a blackout, and
22:54
Speaker 3: I had signs that this had been happening more recently
22:57
Speaker 3: around that time. You know, I would be just completely
23:01
Speaker 3: outside of my body for hours and hours, have no recollection,
23:05
Speaker 3: no memory. You know, I would have bruises and scrapes
23:08
Speaker 3: and torn clothes and missing credit cards and missing cell phones.
23:13
Speaker 3: But I my body just was not prepared to come
23:16
Speaker 3: into a consciousness and take on, you know, take the
23:20
Speaker 3: steps that I need to take, so as the universe
23:24
Speaker 3: would have it, as the Aulos would have it. I
23:26
Speaker 3: you know, a woman was sitting nearby when she witnessed
23:30
Speaker 3: me sort of tumble out of a taxi and I
23:34
Speaker 3: was going to be hit, and I just you know,
23:36
Speaker 3: I was in a blackout, so I had no idea
23:38
Speaker 3: what I was doing. I was kind of running into
23:41
Speaker 3: you know, cinderblocks, barriers, and I wasn't you know. I
23:46
Speaker 3: was in a dangerous position. And she saved my life,
23:48
Speaker 3: and I'm very so grateful to her.
23:51
Speaker 1: But she said she saw you stumble out and cross
23:55
Speaker 1: the street like a zombie.
23:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, retold the entire story to me. She thought that
24:01
Speaker 3: I had died because she tried to put me in
24:03
Speaker 3: a taxi. She tried to get me to speak to
24:06
Speaker 3: her and tell her my name. So what she was
24:08
Speaker 3: able to cry was my name. And so she just
24:11
Speaker 3: kept googling me after because she was really afraid. She
24:14
Speaker 3: was like, I don't know if I did the right
24:15
Speaker 3: thing in that moment, this girl, you know, could have
24:18
Speaker 3: wound up dead. And so as she googled me, she
24:21
Speaker 3: found my social media. She reached out to me. This
24:24
Speaker 3: was about a week later. Yeah, and I've just sort
24:26
Speaker 3: of been holed up with that sense of dread, but
24:30
Speaker 3: you know, no actual memory. And she told me everything
24:33
Speaker 3: and then I was like incredulous. But I knew right away,
24:40
Speaker 3: like I knew it was the truth. I knew that
24:43
Speaker 3: what she was telling me was the end of something,
24:47
Speaker 3: you know, and that that was the moment I could
24:49
Speaker 3: choose to like awaken and take on the responsibility of
24:54
Speaker 3: what I need to do to save my life.
24:56
Speaker 1: Well, she said seven words. Yeah that you said life. Yeah,
25:01
Speaker 1: do you know what's happening to you?
25:03
Speaker 3: Yeah?
25:04
Speaker 1: Why did those seven words? I mean that's a pretty
25:06
Speaker 1: simple question. I know, why did that impact you so greatly?
25:10
Speaker 3: No one ever, ad No one asked me that before,
25:14
Speaker 3: No one asked me that before.
25:17
Speaker 4: They were just such a new way of caring for me,
25:25
Speaker 4: and it wasn't based on this. It wasn't based on this,
25:28
Speaker 4: like you're misbehaving, you know, get it together, you know.
25:32
Speaker 3: And so a lot of times, like anyone who's suffered
25:36
Speaker 3: in this way, whether you identify as an addict or
25:38
Speaker 3: a person in recovery or with substitutes disorder, you've had
25:42
Speaker 3: a bad night and you behaved in a way that
25:45
Speaker 3: is demoralizing that maybe you're embarrassed about, and someone who
25:49
Speaker 3: remembers what you don't will remind you by saying something
25:52
Speaker 3: like do you know what you did last night? Or
25:55
Speaker 3: do you know what you've said? Or like how'd you
25:57
Speaker 3: get home? Or like I can't believe you did that?
25:59
Speaker 3: And you're like what did do? And it's it's just
26:02
Speaker 3: it's totally shameful, and it's it's very scary when it
26:05
Speaker 3: starts to happen, you know, so many times over and
26:08
Speaker 3: over again, and you can't seem to feel like you
26:11
Speaker 3: know how to stop or interrupt the behavior, but you are,
26:14
Speaker 3: you know, taking on that shame very deeply. Her question
26:17
Speaker 3: wasn't blaming me, She was like, something is occurring.
26:23
Speaker 1: She met you with curiosity.
26:24
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, and when you an alcohol come together, do
26:30
Speaker 3: you see what's what's happening there? You know, you're not
26:33
Speaker 3: yourself And it was as if if she saw that,
26:37
Speaker 3: she understood that. And I know I was being like
26:41
Speaker 3: a wild, like unmant like I was an asshole. And
26:48
Speaker 3: I know this because the friend that was with her,
26:51
Speaker 3: who wanted nothing to do with me, wrote to me
26:53
Speaker 3: and told me that she was like, oh yeah, Claire
26:57
Speaker 3: told me about you know, your story, and I wanted
26:59
Speaker 3: to tell you I really didn't want to help you.
27:03
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Okay, are you still in touch with Claire?
27:08
Speaker 3: I send her like four years, five years, eight years,
27:13
Speaker 3: and yeah, I just it's it's really a miracle. And
27:17
Speaker 3: I do believe that, you know, messages sort of come
27:21
Speaker 3: to us when we're prepared to hear them, and they come,
27:25
Speaker 3: you know, they're they're in the voice that we could hear,
27:29
Speaker 3: and everyone else was just too close to me.
27:32
Speaker 1: You needed a stranger.
27:33
Speaker 3: I needed a stranger. I needed sort of that rescue.
27:36
Speaker 3: I needed someone to see something in me that I
27:38
Speaker 3: could not see.
27:40
Speaker 1: So you were also asked do you want to die?
27:42
Speaker 1: And you realize that the answer was no, and so
27:45
Speaker 1: this is kind of where your journey for answers begins.
27:48
Speaker 3: Yeah.
27:49
Speaker 1: So I think a lot of people who struggle with
27:52
Speaker 1: addiction trace their story back to their first drink. You
27:55
Speaker 1: decide to delve into your family history instead. Yeah, you're
27:59
Speaker 1: a hunter Ecuadorian LATINX woman and you unpack the past
28:03
Speaker 1: to give your present contexts. Not easy when family secrets
28:06
Speaker 1: are not openly discussed. Yeah, yeah, not easy because you
28:10
Speaker 1: feel like a whistleblower. You're not trying to share somebody
28:12
Speaker 1: else's story. Yeah, but it's deeply affecting you.
28:16
Speaker 3: Yeah. I felt a little like free when engaged to
28:19
Speaker 3: my grandfather because you's not with us, so everyone else.
28:24
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, particularly my parents, are you
28:28
Speaker 1: able to share what you discovered?
28:30
Speaker 2: Yes?
28:31
Speaker 3: Yes. It was a couple months and when my grandfather
28:33
Speaker 3: died and my mom was so upset, like obviously it's
28:38
Speaker 3: her father, but but not so obviously because they had
28:42
Speaker 3: been estranged and he had really been so horribly abusive
28:47
Speaker 3: and neglectful towards her, And you've not been part of
28:50
Speaker 3: our life. So I was like, I mean, I'm not
28:55
Speaker 3: gonna miss like what's happening, Like what are we talking about?
28:58
Speaker 3: And That's when she opened up to me his alcoholism,
29:01
Speaker 3: and I remembered being in the hospital with her and
29:05
Speaker 3: he was getting a pace baker. He's having open heart surgery,
29:08
Speaker 3: and memory started to come back to me, like the
29:10
Speaker 3: first time we met him, and he seemed quite nervous.
29:14
Speaker 3: Now the symptoms that I observed, you know, he was
29:18
Speaker 3: definitely drinking. I think he was an all day, you know,
29:21
Speaker 3: wake up and need a drink person. By that time,
29:24
Speaker 3: you know, his substance, he disort of had escalated to
29:27
Speaker 3: a pretty severe extreme. And so he yeah, he just
29:34
Speaker 3: remained sort of this mysterious man. And then my mom
29:36
Speaker 3: identified him in this way, in a way that was
29:39
Speaker 3: making me feel very much not a part of my
29:42
Speaker 3: family and sort of like this tragic anomaly and like, ooh,
29:46
Speaker 3: I really fucked up. I better get you know, like
29:49
Speaker 3: get back and they're good Crasis.
29:51
Speaker 1: Just so I understand, you're saying you're you felt like
29:54
Speaker 1: your alcoholism was causing them shame versus okay and myself.
30:00
Speaker 3: You know, my parents don't drink drinking when not in
30:03
Speaker 3: our home. They went through great lengths to protect us
30:08
Speaker 3: from that, you know, and we weren't ever exposed to
30:12
Speaker 3: drinking or drug use. There wasn't a drop of alcohol around,
30:16
Speaker 3: and they were very confused. You know. It was a
30:18
Speaker 3: lot of like, I didn't raise you like this, or
30:20
Speaker 3: you didn't get it, you didn't learn it from me.
30:22
Speaker 1: That was the reaction to immediately.
30:24
Speaker 3: Yes, well it was. It was a lot of fear
30:28
Speaker 3: and yeah, a lot of like it was a bit
30:30
Speaker 3: of rejection, right because they were afraid for me, you know,
30:34
Speaker 3: and that I think as a parent, you you just
30:37
Speaker 3: you can't help but blame yourself, like where did I
30:40
Speaker 3: go wrong? So I didn't want them to blame it
30:44
Speaker 3: wasn't their fault, like, but I wanted them to understand
30:48
Speaker 3: the cycle that was being perpetuated in our family as
30:52
Speaker 3: a result. I'm not just you know, the disorder manifesting,
30:56
Speaker 3: but the way we were talking about it or not
30:58
Speaker 3: talking about it, what we understand and what we didn't,
31:01
Speaker 3: and the way we treated it.
31:03
Speaker 1: Well, you wrote that people who struggled with alcoholism in
31:06
Speaker 1: your family never talked about it. They just disappeared. Yeah,
31:10
Speaker 1: and that's a tough message.
31:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, my uncle was deported for basically like a marijuana charge,
31:17
Speaker 3: a small marijuana charge, which we know statistically ice uses
31:22
Speaker 3: an exponentiy rate to deport people.
31:25
Speaker 1: I never saw this more clearly than when I went
31:27
Speaker 1: to college. I went to UW Madison, which is a
31:32
Speaker 1: predominantly white institution. Yes, I didn't know what that was.
31:36
Speaker 2: When I got to college, I didn't.
31:38
Speaker 1: Even know that word. There were six percent of the
31:42
Speaker 1: student body that were people of color. Six is very low,
31:47
Speaker 1: WHOA and half of that were student athletes. And I
31:51
Speaker 1: would go to like a white fraternity party and people
31:55
Speaker 1: were doing a lot of drugs. And then I would
31:58
Speaker 1: go to a public dorm and people weren't doing that
32:02
Speaker 1: many drugs, but they were getting caught for the drugs
32:05
Speaker 1: that they were doing. Absolutely, and there's just I've never
32:08
Speaker 1: seen such a divide ye so up close.
32:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so clearly. Right, there's a reason that black, brown,
32:17
Speaker 3: indigenous people have been purposefully poisoned, targeted, criminalized for doing
32:24
Speaker 3: something that's completely natural. And there's a reason that we
32:27
Speaker 3: have a story that tells us that this is perfectly normal, recreational,
32:33
Speaker 3: not a problem. Or you become a victim if it's
32:37
Speaker 3: problematic if you are white, and you are a criminal
32:42
Speaker 3: if you are black, brown, indigenous. So, and that is
32:45
Speaker 3: from the legacy you know of the colonization of Turtle
32:50
Speaker 3: Island of North America and Central and South America as well. Right,
32:54
Speaker 3: so we we see this and that is like embody
32:59
Speaker 3: that's textualized in your college experience in mind as well.
33:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, anybody listening that's thinking like, whoa, maybe this is
33:07
Speaker 1: just becoming a victim of your story. Exactly what do
33:10
Speaker 1: you say to that?
33:11
Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh, that's what I thought my whole life,
33:14
Speaker 3: like acknowledging that something had happened like that I was
33:19
Speaker 3: fired from my job as a result of racism. That
33:22
Speaker 3: was I was just making excuses for myself, like who
33:25
Speaker 3: do I think I am? You know, and coming to
33:29
Speaker 3: terms with the reality of what was happening was not
33:32
Speaker 3: about letting myself off the hook. It was about understanding
33:36
Speaker 3: how the game is played realistically so I could remove
33:42
Speaker 3: the obstacle. And that obstacle was my shame. The more
33:46
Speaker 3: I told myself all this stuff is my fault and
33:48
Speaker 3: I didn't understand how the system worked, I was never
33:52
Speaker 3: going to be able to even recover from self sis
33:55
Speaker 3: use disorder. Right, I just was never going to get
33:58
Speaker 3: better because I would constantly be in that cycle of
34:00
Speaker 3: shame and blame. Ye, my story is saying something about
34:03
Speaker 3: substance use disorder, our systems, our government, racism, white supremacy
34:09
Speaker 3: at a blackness, the carcel system, colonialism. That is just
34:15
Speaker 3: not as cute as a white woman being like I
34:22
Speaker 3: want people to have compassion for people who suffer from
34:25
Speaker 3: substance use disorder. They're going to pick compassion because that's
34:30
Speaker 3: something that's easy, that's warm, that feels inclusive of all
34:35
Speaker 3: of us. It doesn't make anyone shift in their seat
34:38
Speaker 3: and get uncomfortable. Of course, we need compassion, but more
34:42
Speaker 3: than compassion, we need change, yes, and we need people
34:45
Speaker 3: who are willing to speak up and to actually fight
34:48
Speaker 3: and advocate and be a part of that change. So
34:52
Speaker 3: that's an extra step. Compassion often makes us feel really
34:56
Speaker 3: warm and fuzzy and feel good about ourselves, but's oftentimes
34:59
Speaker 3: it's so say it with feeling sorry. I don't want
35:02
Speaker 3: you to feel sorry for me, because feeling sorry for
35:05
Speaker 3: me is pity, and that's just as dehumanizing as anything else.
35:09
Speaker 3: It's about a scale of humanity and who's entitled to
35:12
Speaker 3: the full spectrum of our humanity. That's what recovery is
35:15
Speaker 3: that you believe that you're entitled, yes to make mistakes
35:21
Speaker 3: to suffer, to have your pain so exposed that you're
35:25
Speaker 3: doing something that's deemed antisocial. But we're all in that
35:28
Speaker 3: same pain and just manifest different differently for all of us,
35:32
Speaker 3: you know. And that's what I wanted to illustrate with
35:34
Speaker 3: my family. Compassion is a gateway to motivate you to
35:38
Speaker 3: understand that we need that This is not a crisis
35:42
Speaker 3: because people are just like getting crazy with drugs. This
35:45
Speaker 3: is a crisis because that is what our government wants
35:50
Speaker 3: the story to be. That is what we could change
35:54
Speaker 3: in an instant if we wanted to, And we have
35:57
Speaker 3: all the research, we have all the modalities, we have
36:00
Speaker 3: healthcare based methods of tackling this issue, making drug use
36:07
Speaker 3: safe for people if they want to use it, saving
36:10
Speaker 3: people's lives. So it's like, we know that we could
36:15
Speaker 3: do that, we choose not to, and that's what we
36:17
Speaker 3: need to understand.
36:19
Speaker 1: This is a quote from your book that struck me
36:22
Speaker 1: right in the chest. Oh good, you write American exceptionalism
36:26
Speaker 1: was the first drug I ever took. I think so
36:28
Speaker 1: much of this has to do with stories. The American
36:31
Speaker 1: dream is a story.
36:32
Speaker 3: Yeah.
36:33
Speaker 1: I think the stat last time I checked is that
36:35
Speaker 1: eight percent of people have upward social mobility in America.
36:40
Speaker 1: That's very low eight percent, which kind of makes the
36:45
Speaker 1: American dream feel like a myth more so than a
36:49
Speaker 1: story that we hear or a reality. What did you
36:53
Speaker 1: mean by American exceptionalism? Was the first drug I ever took.
36:58
Speaker 3: I meant that well before my parents even got here.
37:02
Speaker 3: You know, my parents are from Central and South America.
37:05
Speaker 3: My mother in particular, grew up in a place in
37:08
Speaker 3: deep poverty nearby a neighborhood called El Barrio Anglis, where
37:12
Speaker 3: there were English language schools, private schools, There was plentiful food,
37:18
Speaker 3: there were five star restaurants, there was a transportation system,
37:24
Speaker 3: there were fancy clothes, and just on the other side
37:28
Speaker 3: of that fence was deep, deep, deep poverty. And so
37:32
Speaker 3: the idea that America was the place, that America was
37:39
Speaker 3: exceptional and we came from this other place, and so
37:42
Speaker 3: all you had to do was get to that place.
37:44
Speaker 3: Right Maybe you wouldn't be like the gringos, you know,
37:48
Speaker 3: right away, but you had the shot, you had an opportunity.
37:53
Speaker 3: So that n that story is alive even before I
37:57
Speaker 3: come into the picture. But then I'm brought into this world,
38:01
Speaker 3: particularly to be born here in this country, which is
38:05
Speaker 3: going to give me great privileges in and of itself. Yeah,
38:09
Speaker 3: and then I'm going to be positioned to sort of
38:12
Speaker 3: be able to achieve the things that my parents, you know,
38:15
Speaker 3: didn't have access to or couldn't And so that American exceptionalism,
38:21
Speaker 3: believing in that helped me continue, you know, perpetuating that
38:27
Speaker 3: story even within myself and within our family, and agreeing
38:31
Speaker 3: with my parents and constantly denying my own humanity, my
38:35
Speaker 3: own feelings, my own pain, because I just needed to
38:39
Speaker 3: achieve the things that were going to make my parents
38:43
Speaker 3: sacrifices worth it. And so I wouldn't have been able
38:47
Speaker 3: to stay in that cycle of behavior for as long
38:50
Speaker 3: as I did if I didn't believe in American exceptionalism,
38:53
Speaker 3: and if I didn't believe that acquiring it was a
38:56
Speaker 3: thing that was going to make me matter, that was
38:58
Speaker 3: going to define my humanity and in any way that
39:02
Speaker 3: I had been otherised in the past, and that I
39:04
Speaker 3: had been like, you're right, yeah, yeah, stupid orum. You
39:07
Speaker 3: know that once I achieved that status, I was going
39:12
Speaker 3: to be safe. So it's really attached to safety. What
39:15
Speaker 3: I wanted was safety and enoughness, and I want a
39:18
Speaker 3: community I wanted to be a part of I wanted
39:21
Speaker 3: to be among my peers. I just wanted to relax
39:25
Speaker 3: and be myself.
39:27
Speaker 1: You wanted to exhale.
39:28
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I was so tired from a very young age.
39:31
Speaker 3: I was exhausted so.
39:35
Speaker 1: A young age. Oh yeah, you remember feeling exhausted.
39:38
Speaker 3: I remember feeling very afraid and nervous at school and
39:44
Speaker 3: then feeling super tired by the time I got home,
39:48
Speaker 3: and just not being able to articulate what was happening
39:51
Speaker 3: to my parents, you know, in a way that they
39:54
Speaker 3: could understand or you know, empathized with, because these were
39:59
Speaker 3: Champagne problems to.
40:00
Speaker 1: Move right, And that's what being part of what being
40:04
Speaker 1: first in the family is.
40:05
Speaker 3: Absolutely yes, And it took me a really long time,
40:10
Speaker 3: well into my adulthood, and even with the writing of
40:12
Speaker 3: this book that a lot of my family members say, like, wow,
40:16
Speaker 3: I never came to terms with what happened to us
40:19
Speaker 3: in that town. You know, I never came to terms
40:22
Speaker 3: with the reality of, you know, the meaning behind what
40:26
Speaker 3: people called us or how they treated us, or you know,
40:30
Speaker 3: what we didn't have access to, or the way they
40:32
Speaker 3: were able to just kick us out of our home
40:35
Speaker 3: right and not look back, and so, yeah, I think
40:39
Speaker 3: that that was so liberating for everyone in my family.
40:42
Speaker 3: It's been liberating for me, And that's what I hope
40:46
Speaker 3: people will take away. It's not about like blaming or
40:51
Speaker 3: it's about liberating yourself from the weight of that shame.
40:55
Speaker 3: So you can understand clearly.
40:58
Speaker 1: In terms of the shame that you felt with your
41:00
Speaker 1: parents or the dynamic. I should say. You're write about
41:03
Speaker 1: being a sexual assault survivor and you took a shower
41:07
Speaker 1: at home to avoid alarming your father. Yeah. Yeah, So
41:12
Speaker 1: to me, that shows that you were so worried about
41:15
Speaker 1: preserving his well being. Yeah, more so than dealing with
41:20
Speaker 1: one of the most horrific things that could ever happen
41:22
Speaker 1: to you. What was going through your mind at that moment, Oh, my.
41:28
Speaker 3: Gosh, my father was going through a lot. You know.
41:33
Speaker 3: My parents, my parents were dedicated parents, but they were
41:39
Speaker 3: not partners to each other in the way that I
41:44
Speaker 3: had been taught to idealize. Yeah, and so it always
41:48
Speaker 3: really bugged me that they weren't in love. I just
41:53
Speaker 3: wanted them to love each other. And when my mother.
41:56
Speaker 1: Left, that's really painful.
41:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was inside rooting for her, you know, not
42:05
Speaker 3: against my father.
42:06
Speaker 1: I was.
42:07
Speaker 3: You know, you can compartmentalize these things. You can root
42:09
Speaker 3: for both your parents at the same time. You're both
42:12
Speaker 3: of them, right, Yeah, I am my father and my mother.
42:16
Speaker 3: I understood what my mom was up against and what
42:19
Speaker 3: she needed, and I suffered as a result of her leaving,
42:23
Speaker 3: especially in that moment, but I didn't blame her. But
42:27
Speaker 3: I did have to take care of my father. My
42:29
Speaker 3: father was very low. My father was dealing with you know,
42:33
Speaker 3: really violent discrimination at work. It was physical that was
42:38
Speaker 3: deeply oppressive and emotional, and so yeah, I sort of
42:43
Speaker 3: cooked and I did laundry, and I cared for him,
42:46
Speaker 3: and I was trying to feel safe at school. My
42:49
Speaker 3: sister leaving, I had always like kind of been bullied
42:52
Speaker 3: and stuff, but I was always sort of under her
42:54
Speaker 3: wing and that gave me kind of this cloak of protection.
42:57
Speaker 3: And when she left, it really felt like it was
42:59
Speaker 3: on and I don't know what payback. It was felt
43:04
Speaker 3: that I was owed because I always kind of tried
43:07
Speaker 3: to lay low, and you know, I tried to create
43:11
Speaker 3: worlds for myself outside of this town. You know, like
43:13
Speaker 3: I convinced my mom to bring me into the city
43:16
Speaker 3: as much as possible, you know, I had friends from
43:19
Speaker 3: other places. I just I knew that I just wasn't
43:22
Speaker 3: accepted there, So I just tried to create other communities
43:26
Speaker 3: for myself. So I was very vulnerable when my sister left,
43:31
Speaker 3: and it was sort of me and my dad and
43:33
Speaker 3: my mom was figuring, you know, herself out or freedom. Yeah,
43:38
Speaker 3: and this happened because I was so desperate for that
43:42
Speaker 3: acceptance and I trusted, No, I'm not gonna blame myself
43:46
Speaker 3: at all. I went to a party. I went to
43:49
Speaker 3: a party because I wanted to be invited to the party,
43:50
Speaker 3: because I wanted to go to the party.
43:53
Speaker 1: And you had to have some fun.
43:55
Speaker 3: I wanted to have some fun, and I wanted this
43:57
Speaker 3: person in particular to stop bullying me.
44:01
Speaker 1: Yeah.
44:01
Speaker 3: And I thought when he invited me to his party
44:04
Speaker 3: then that that was the olive branch. But that was
44:07
Speaker 3: part of the ruse. I guess the plan is very premeditated.
44:12
Speaker 3: It's very it's very difficult to even come to terms
44:16
Speaker 3: with such a premeditated soul. Yeah, willfully violent attack. Yeah.
44:23
Speaker 3: So I wasn't thinking. By the time I got home,
44:27
Speaker 3: I was glad that I didn't kill myself. On the
44:29
Speaker 3: drive back because I had been drugged and I didn't
44:32
Speaker 3: drink at that time, and so I thought I was
44:36
Speaker 3: hungover or something. I thought I did something stupid, and oh,
44:38
Speaker 3: my God, to me so embarrassed, and I just wanted
44:41
Speaker 3: to watch it all away. And problem was coming up,
44:45
Speaker 3: and it was near Mother's Day and there were just
44:48
Speaker 3: so many painful factors sort of colliding in that moment.
44:52
Speaker 3: And my father and my mother were very strict. So
44:55
Speaker 3: where the fuck had I been? What had I been doing?
44:59
Speaker 3: Nothing good? So I thought it showered, no, no, yeah,
45:05
Speaker 3: But then my mom did come home for some reason.
45:07
Speaker 3: I put on my prom dress and I laid in
45:10
Speaker 3: bed and I, yeah, I just went into like a
45:14
Speaker 3: very dark place, very very dark. I'm very proud of
45:17
Speaker 3: myself for having the courage to go to prom with
45:19
Speaker 3: my friend. So I dance around those people.
45:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's unbelievable.
45:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know how I did it. I don't
45:26
Speaker 3: know how I did it, but I think the body
45:29
Speaker 3: and the mind, like the spirit is so resilient, you know,
45:32
Speaker 3: the spirit does. I didn't want those moments. I wanted prom.
45:35
Speaker 3: I wanted to be there with my friend. I wanted
45:37
Speaker 3: to wear that dress I had worked so hard to
45:40
Speaker 3: save up the cash for at my waitressing job. You know,
45:43
Speaker 3: I just wanted those little yeah, those mild sunkets.
45:46
Speaker 1: Yeah. As I'm sitting here listening and taking your story,
45:51
Speaker 1: and I feel like it must be maddening to do
45:55
Speaker 1: a book tour like this and talk about something that
45:58
Speaker 1: feels so personal to you and have people misunderstand it
46:01
Speaker 1: or not understand it.
46:04
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you. Yeah. I think if people misunderstand it, oh,
46:10
Speaker 3: they don't understand it. What they've done is just reject it.
46:13
Speaker 3: And that's painful too. But the people who have come,
46:16
Speaker 3: who have shown up, everyone has just been so open armed.
46:23
Speaker 3: Everyone has just you know, this topic has such a
46:26
Speaker 3: way of opening the door for people. Like so if
46:29
Speaker 3: my book cracks the door over, yeah, people like kick
46:32
Speaker 3: it open, you know, like I'm always surprised.
46:35
Speaker 1: I want you to explain this powerful line to me.
46:38
Speaker 3: Okay.
46:39
Speaker 1: I thought, when I found the courage to be myself completely,
46:42
Speaker 1: that acceptance would be the sign that I was good
46:44
Speaker 1: and lovable and true and right in the world. The
46:47
Speaker 1: world would reflect my goodness like a mirror. I learned
46:51
Speaker 1: that finding the courage to take a stand would be
46:53
Speaker 1: a sign of my health, because freedom would not be
46:55
Speaker 1: bestowed upon me. I would have to take it by force.
47:00
Speaker 1: What does freedom by force look like?
47:03
Speaker 3: It's like not being silenced. No, And every time I
47:07
Speaker 3: want to say something and there's that moment, there's a
47:10
Speaker 3: moment I'm not gonna say that, I say it anyway,
47:14
Speaker 3: you know that kind of thing. Yes, Yes, that's hard
47:18
Speaker 3: the table up.
47:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I did think no fear of being canceled.
47:24
Speaker 3: No, I mean, I mean I've been I've been canceled.
47:28
Speaker 3: And I think I think that there's more conversation about
47:31
Speaker 3: cancelation where we understand that that's not a solution, and there's,
47:36
Speaker 3: you know, an effort to be more in conversation. But
47:38
Speaker 3: for me, it's like my position is kind of like
47:41
Speaker 3: when I was in AA and I was told not
47:43
Speaker 3: to say this, not to say that, and I finally
47:45
Speaker 3: got to a point where like this is I'm stating
47:49
Speaker 3: something that is not a threat, and it's not an insult.
47:53
Speaker 3: It's a statement of my identity and I need it.
47:56
Speaker 3: I need it for the same reason that you need
47:59
Speaker 3: all the things that you believe about yourself. And we're
48:02
Speaker 3: gonna have to make room for each other, and we're
48:05
Speaker 3: gonna have to become aware of how things are not equitable,
48:08
Speaker 3: and the only power that we have, the only shot
48:11
Speaker 3: that we have, is to come together and be like, Okay,
48:14
Speaker 3: we are deciding that this is how we're going to
48:17
Speaker 3: proceed in this room. We're gonna make this room safe
48:19
Speaker 3: for everyone that needs to be here. I thought that
48:23
Speaker 3: I was gonna get all the things that I'm gonna
48:24
Speaker 3: be cured, and my parents are gonna be able to
48:26
Speaker 3: put me right back up on that pedestal, and I realized,
48:28
Speaker 3: oh my god, I don't want to be on a pedestal.
48:32
Speaker 3: I want us all to be in conversation together, shoulders shoulder.
48:37
Speaker 1: That's really powerful. I don't want to be on a pedestal.
48:40
Speaker 1: I want us to be in conversation, shoulders shoulder.
48:42
Speaker 3: H Yeah, that's what we need to do. That's the
48:47
Speaker 3: only path forward, Danielle.
48:49
Speaker 1: It really is what really is. Yeah, when you talk
48:53
Speaker 1: about like going home and finding love again, self love,
48:57
Speaker 1: that you don't have to go home and bring a prize, Yeah,
49:01
Speaker 1: that's part of that too.
49:02
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, yeah, definitely.
49:04
Speaker 1: I think a lot of children, like I think it's
49:06
Speaker 1: regardless of the background of your family, children want to
49:10
Speaker 1: feel like they made their parents proud. It's just a
49:12
Speaker 1: human instinct.
49:13
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm No matter how much therapy I get, yeah,
49:16
Speaker 3: how much recovery, this is never gonna go away. I
49:19
Speaker 3: want my parents to be acad of me. I want
49:22
Speaker 3: them to just feel that I heard them, that I
49:26
Speaker 3: see them, that I love them, you know, I am them.
49:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, and them accepting this was just it.
49:34
Speaker 3: Really, it really showed me that everything I told myself
49:38
Speaker 3: about what I needed to be to be loved by them,
49:40
Speaker 3: you know, it was so it was such a small
49:45
Speaker 3: it was such a small idea. You know, what they're
49:48
Speaker 3: actually capable of is is everything that I need?
49:52
Speaker 1: You know.
49:52
Speaker 3: It's not perfect, Yeah, but if I do ask for it,
49:55
Speaker 3: if I do say, hey, I need this, like asking
49:58
Speaker 3: my dad to celebrate my anniversary with me, you know,
50:01
Speaker 3: and he said something so simple and he couldn't never
50:04
Speaker 3: have known, like how nervous I was or how scared
50:06
Speaker 3: I was to talk to him about it, but he
50:08
Speaker 3: was just like, luagu sure I'll do it. You know
50:13
Speaker 3: what I mean. It was just like, but that's such
50:16
Speaker 3: That's a moment that I will never forget because the
50:19
Speaker 3: way I felt and way I built it up, in
50:21
Speaker 3: the way it existed inside my mind, and my heart
50:23
Speaker 3: and my body. And then when I actually shared that
50:27
Speaker 3: with him and I said, hey, I need this. It
50:30
Speaker 3: was so simple, you know, it wasn't this like horrible lightload.
50:33
Speaker 3: And he told me, don't be ashamed. Oh, he said, like,
50:38
Speaker 3: don't be ashamed of all that. Just tell me you know,
50:42
Speaker 3: and I'm here for you.
50:43
Speaker 1: Like so he opened up the communication too.
50:46
Speaker 3: He met me.
50:47
Speaker 1: You said, I'm writing this book not because I believe
50:49
Speaker 1: my story can save you, but because I want you
50:52
Speaker 1: to know yours well. And that gives me chills. What
50:56
Speaker 1: are you asking your readers to actively do right now?
51:00
Speaker 3: I would say, I want you to give yourself the
51:03
Speaker 3: space and time, like whatever pressure, whatever timeline you feel
51:07
Speaker 3: is pressing upon you. And I don't want to undermine
51:10
Speaker 3: any kind of like financial strain or like very real
51:14
Speaker 3: material consequences that people are pressure that people are under
51:17
Speaker 3: right now, so very real. But if you have an expectation,
51:22
Speaker 3: or you have a sense that you're falling short, or
51:27
Speaker 3: that you're not where you want to be or they're
51:29
Speaker 3: not who you want to be, I would just encourage
51:33
Speaker 3: my reader to figure out if that is based on
51:37
Speaker 3: something that you believed, or if it's something that you
51:40
Speaker 3: were told, and that you've been told it so many
51:44
Speaker 3: times that it's it feels like it's something that you believe,
51:47
Speaker 3: it feels like it's coming from inside, but rather it's
51:51
Speaker 3: something that we've internalized. So that's my work. And I
51:57
Speaker 3: use the story of drugs and drug use because it
52:01
Speaker 3: is such a highly stigmatized, you know, part of our society.
52:07
Speaker 3: It's so antisocial. It's like the example all the time
52:11
Speaker 3: of like worst case scenario, right, And so if we
52:14
Speaker 3: can accept the humanity in something that has been so
52:17
Speaker 3: deeply storied in a negative way, then you know, we
52:22
Speaker 3: can sort of reflect that, we can come into consciousness
52:25
Speaker 3: about all the other things, all the other small things
52:28
Speaker 3: that are very very toxic, you know, And it doesn't matter,
52:32
Speaker 3: Like me believing that I need to wake up every
52:34
Speaker 3: day and do exercise is not because I want to
52:38
Speaker 3: get the endorsements that I know help me, you know,
52:41
Speaker 3: creatively and think. It's also connected to the idea that
52:45
Speaker 3: I want to look a certain way and that the
52:47
Speaker 3: way I look is not ideal. So it's it's as
52:50
Speaker 3: simple as that. That's just one example. But I have
52:54
Speaker 3: these thoughts and they don't go away. What I have
52:57
Speaker 3: now too is is that practice that I keep repeating,
53:01
Speaker 3: which is just to the four corners, the four corners
53:06
Speaker 3: of course, the alignment, And it's just not about It's
53:11
Speaker 3: not about like whether or not I can fit in
53:14
Speaker 3: these pans. It's like the fact that I'm sitting here,
53:17
Speaker 3: that I have this opportunity. Of course I want to
53:19
Speaker 3: appear in a certain way. Of course I care about
53:23
Speaker 3: how I look and things like that, but just questioning
53:26
Speaker 3: why and whose standards am I trying to meet and
53:30
Speaker 3: can I be connected to mine? Because I know that
53:33
Speaker 3: I hold myself to a high standard, but it's a
53:35
Speaker 3: high standard, and that I want to be a person
53:38
Speaker 3: with integrity. I want to be a person who cares
53:41
Speaker 3: about the world. And if I cannot care about myself
53:45
Speaker 3: and I can't care about anyone else, I can't care
53:47
Speaker 3: about you or my partner and my family and the
53:50
Speaker 3: way that I should. I'm still bringing in those qualifiers
53:53
Speaker 3: where I'm thinking about the people that I love. If
53:56
Speaker 3: I'm doing that to myself, if I'm projecting that onto myself,
53:59
Speaker 3: I'm in a projector out to the world. I really
54:01
Speaker 3: want to like, you know, abolish it, you know, standards, hierarchy,
54:08
Speaker 3: all the ways that we're taught to organize the world. Begin,
54:12
Speaker 3: you know, with yourself, and start to build up that practice,
54:17
Speaker 3: because that is going to show you how you need
54:18
Speaker 3: to show up in the world.
54:20
Speaker 1: And we re yourself questions.
54:23
Speaker 3: Yeah, we need that right now, we need you, We
54:26
Speaker 3: need everyone.
54:27
Speaker 1: I need you to open this up. Okay, pick a
54:30
Speaker 1: random question. Which everyone you feel called to.
54:34
Speaker 3: The steels very like colors? Yeah?
54:38
Speaker 1: I thought you were gonna say oracle. Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, Okay,
54:45
Speaker 1: here we go.
54:46
Speaker 3: What compliment do you hear the most? Which means the
54:49
Speaker 3: most to you? Which one makes you the most uncomfortable?
54:53
Speaker 1: Okay, which one do you hear the most?
54:56
Speaker 3: He the most that I'm like really passionate and excited,
55:01
Speaker 3: and which to my mom translation by my mom is
55:05
Speaker 3: you're too much like that, which means the most to you.
55:10
Speaker 3: I used to take it personally because of the way
55:15
Speaker 3: I was other eyes, you know, so I tried to
55:17
Speaker 3: like water myself down to fit in and stuff. And
55:21
Speaker 3: so if people said that to me, I was like,
55:22
Speaker 3: I'm sure I'm showing up too much, like you know,
55:25
Speaker 3: I'm on deck. But now I really embrace it. Now,
55:28
Speaker 3: I like, I like showing up in bright red and
55:32
Speaker 3: leopard pants and just coming in with my full self.
55:36
Speaker 3: Which one makes you the most uncomfortable? M which one
55:40
Speaker 3: makes me the most uncomfortable? I think about being loud. Yeah,
55:44
Speaker 3: you know, I have a big mouth. I curse a lot,
55:49
Speaker 3: I can like go on and on. So yeah, but
55:52
Speaker 3: I think that that makes me the most uncomfortable.
55:56
Speaker 1: What's a book that you've read that you think everybody
55:58
Speaker 1: should read?
55:59
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's a really hard one, you know, Okay,
56:02
Speaker 3: I just want to say two, thanks Micau. This is
56:05
Speaker 3: very important. Manassa and Helica Biarere just wrote a book
56:11
Speaker 3: that published this year called Magical Realism, and I particularly
56:16
Speaker 3: identify with it. She is a Mexican American writer and
56:21
Speaker 3: so culturally there are a lot of things that just
56:23
Speaker 3: spoke to me. We're also the same age, so a
56:25
Speaker 3: lot of the pop culture things, you know, I deeply
56:29
Speaker 3: identify with right, like talking about Selena Nirvana, and you
56:32
Speaker 3: know she also talks about the world on drugs and
56:35
Speaker 3: stuff like this. So it was just such a deep
56:37
Speaker 3: identification as like, wow, this book was written for me.
56:40
Speaker 3: But the cultural analysis and taking the conceptual and just
56:46
Speaker 3: bringing it in like so intimately into your life. So
56:49
Speaker 3: you can understand yourself and the world like literally genius,
56:55
Speaker 3: and every person should read it. It's longlisted for the
56:58
Speaker 3: National Book.
56:59
Speaker 1: Word Everyone reads it.
57:01
Speaker 3: Personally. Heavy by Kasey Layman was probably the most was
57:08
Speaker 3: the book that helped me believe I could write, I
57:12
Speaker 3: could write about my family in an honest way, and
57:15
Speaker 3: that I needed to write about me and my family
57:18
Speaker 3: in an honest way and let go of this way
57:21
Speaker 3: that I was performing and showing up.
57:23
Speaker 1: What's the smartest decision you've ever made?
57:26
Speaker 3: Smartest decision I ever made? Wow, besides recovery, the smart
57:31
Speaker 3: decision I ever made. I had a belief for a
57:34
Speaker 3: really long time that I needed to be something someone
57:42
Speaker 3: that was attached to a checklist in order to be
57:44
Speaker 3: worthy of love. And I was at a point in
57:46
Speaker 3: my life where I literally had nothing. I was on
57:50
Speaker 3: unemployment insurance and that was running out. I'd just written
57:54
Speaker 3: these three articles for like yahoo dot com where they
57:57
Speaker 3: paid me like you know how many dollars, and I
58:00
Speaker 3: was feeling very insecure and very low. And I met
58:04
Speaker 3: the person of my life and there was a choice
58:09
Speaker 3: to let them come into my life and visit me
58:12
Speaker 3: and see me. And I thought that I was like, no,
58:16
Speaker 3: I gotta get my shit together first month, you know that.
58:20
Speaker 3: But I didn't. They came at that point where I
58:23
Speaker 3: felt like I had nothing to offer and we made
58:27
Speaker 3: a decision to like try a life together. And we've
58:33
Speaker 3: been together ever since, and so I think that was
58:36
Speaker 3: the best decision that we both were like fuck it,
58:40
Speaker 3: maybe we could like become those people together, you know.
58:44
Speaker 3: So I always like to say that, like, don't wait,
58:47
Speaker 3: You're never going to be the ideal partner and someone's
58:50
Speaker 3: not going to come in and like, you know, like
58:52
Speaker 3: get rid of the list. The list girlies need to go,
58:55
Speaker 3: you know, like that needs to go.
58:57
Speaker 1: I totally agree.
58:58
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just it's like absolutely, it's definitely a feeling
59:03
Speaker 3: and a timing. And then I will tell you all
59:06
Speaker 3: the things that I thought I needed to be. We've
59:10
Speaker 3: we've figured out and built together and so you never
59:14
Speaker 3: get anywhere alone. But I do believe part of that
59:18
Speaker 3: was believing that I was worthy of his love. That
59:22
Speaker 3: helped me believe that I could do the other things too.
59:26
Speaker 1: So give me chill. That is mine.
59:29
Speaker 3: That is my message, my love message.
59:33
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for this. You're so wonderful.
59:37
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.
59:38
Speaker 1: You have so much to give people. Okay, you know
59:46
Speaker 1: what time it is. Today's a good day to have
59:49
Speaker 1: a good day. I'll see you next week. You can
1:00:01
Speaker 1: shut them