Latest / NO FILTER / Joe Rogan Experience _2473 - Bill Thompson

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Joe Rogan Experience _2473 - Bill Thompson · NO FILTER

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: by night, all day. What's up, Bill?
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: How you doing, Jeff?
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Good to see you, bro. Good to see you. This
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: might be one of the coolest things anybody's ever given me. So,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: you gave me this knife. Explain all this.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: All right, so, I mean, there's a larger explanatory reason
• 0:26
  Speaker 3: behind this. My brother and I grew up... My father
• 0:28
  Speaker 3: died when I was five. My brother and I grew
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: up doing... These things called rendezvous. Have you ever heard
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: of them?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: In what way? What is a rendezvous?
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: So there you go. So what a rendezvous is, is
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: it's not, you know, you go to those like, I
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: don't even know what they're called, but people do like reenactments.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Like Civil War reenactments? It's not like that.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: So that's the closest thing, approximation to probably what it is.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: You get invited to them or these days are easier
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: to get to. But my stepfather, the guy my mother remarried,
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: brought us to him. All you do is camp. But
• 1:01
  Speaker 3: you're only allowed to camp and no one comes to
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: the camp or sometimes they might have people at the end.
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: But while you're in the camp, everything in the camp
• 1:07
  Speaker 3: has to be 1840 or prior. So there can be
• 1:10
  Speaker 3: no modern appurtenances, nothing like a refrigerator or nothing like that.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: 1840, why that year?
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: At the end of the fur trapping. That was considered
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: like Jeremiah Johnson time, like peak fur trapping. So there's people,
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: you know, they dress like either... you know, revolutionary, like
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: American revolutionaries, or they dress like mountain men, or they
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: dress like Indians.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: How'd you guys dress?
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: Mountain men. So while we're there, you learn all kinds
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: of stuff while you're reenacting. Like I learned how to
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: brain tan hides. I learned how to traditionally art or
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: do traditional archery, stuff like that. So anyway, this knife
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: was a knife I had actually started working on with
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: my brother a while ago. I do more of like
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: the brain tanning Tomahawk.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: And when you're saying brain tanning, you talk about using
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: brains to tan animal hides, right? Using animal brains. What
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: does brains do? Why does brains work?
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: It softens the leather in a natural way. And what's
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: cool about it is every animal, no matter what animal
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: you kill, has the exact amount of brain needed in
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: order to tan the hide. So you don't need any additional,
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: like people use egg yolks or mayonnaise or something like that.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: All you do is you take the brain out of
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: the cavity, you grind it up, you mix it into
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: some water. And then after you've, after you've cleaned the leather,
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: And you scraped it clean. You stretch it. I usually
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: use like a dull shovel. You stretch it over the
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: dull shovel. And then you soak it in the brain
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: water mixture. And then you just keep repeating that pattern.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: And the leather gets like a really nice soft feel
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: to it.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: What is it about the brain? Is it the fat?
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: It breaks down the leather. I'm not sure if it's
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: the fat or not. I haven't gotten that deep into it.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: But it breaks down the leather and just makes it
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: feel really soft, really nice. So anyway, this knife here.
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: I started, I killed that bear. So the jaw is
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: made out of two bear jaws or out of one
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: bear jaw split in half. So that was a bear
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: I killed in Canada in 2017. It was my biggest
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: black bear. And so we split the jaw, put that together.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: It's Irish linen threading. Then that's a knife that my
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: brother picked up. That was from 1860. It was totally rusted.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: We had to grind it back or he had to
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: grind it back down. And then the sheath, is traditional.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: The cool thing about doing rendezvous and the cool thing
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: about this is you could have a DeLorean and drop
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: that in 1840 and somebody would pick it up and
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: think it was made yesterday. And so everything on there
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: has been done traditionally from the quilling on the beadwork
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: is made from porcupine quills. The backing is buffalo brain tan.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: And then the front is beaver hide or beaver tail.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry. And then... The sides are horse and turkey
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: hair hanging off of it.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: And these are bear teeth?
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: And those are bear teeth, yep, from the same bear.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: So when I was thinking about what I was– because
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: I wanted to give you something for inviting me on
• 3:59
  Speaker 3: because it's still a shock to me that you did it.
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: Even though we've been talking for so long, I just
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: never imagined a scenario where you'd want to have me
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: on here.
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: Well, you're an interesting dude.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: I thought, what could I give this guy that money
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: or people or whatever couldn't get you? And so I
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: thought this is the right thing to do. So it
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: went from a me project to a you project. And, uh,
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: my brother, Aaron, uh, helped me out with it tremendously.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: So how'd you find this knife from the 1860s?
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: Well, he found it. My brother is, um, even more
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: esoteric and odd than I am, believe it or not. And, uh,
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: he collects this kind of stuff. Um, they, I mean,
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: the guy who dated it said 1860 to 1890 is
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: what they figured. And, uh, And you can tell by
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: the way that like around the hilt and the way
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: that it's... The pitting on it and stuff like that
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: and the way that it was made that it fits
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: that era. I mean, it could have been somebody redid
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: it in 1900, but it's definitely that old. The type
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: of steel and the way that it was worked and
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: the way that it is around the hilt or on
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: the bottom there.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: And so it's at least, you know, 130, 140, but
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: most likely 160, 170. It actually fits my hand perfect. Yeah, so.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: That's also something my brother and I talked about, about
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: how long it was going to be. And we made
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: some educated guesses and put it all together. So, yeah,
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, not something you can just
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: go pick up somewhere or something that will, you know,
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: hopefully mean something. Not saying it's practical, like it's not
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: something you'd be gutting an elk out with.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Well, if we get attacked by zombies in the studio,
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: it's a good thing to have on the desk.
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, if you're going to make a last stand.
• 5:34
  Speaker 3: You know, that's a pretty good knife to make your
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: last stand with.
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: That's a good way to go out.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: That's awesome, man.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so the rendezvous, we did those from— How long
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: do they last? They vary from a week, and then
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: some go up to three weeks.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: And what do you do for food while you're out there?
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: So inside of your lodge— so there's two types of rendezvous.
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: At most rendezvous inside of your lodge, you can have
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: a cooler as long as it doesn't leave the lodge.
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: So I have like a 20-foot teepee that I take
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: to these things. And inside of my teepee, you can
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: have a cooler and some modern appurtenances.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Did they have any kind of coolers in the 1800s?
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: I mean, they had ice boxes and like steel ice
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: boxes and that type of thing, but nothing like we
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: have today. You know, stuff was getting dug out, buried
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: in the ground or put into the ground, like cool
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: areas of the ground or digouts. And they dried everything.
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: So pemmican would have been the, you know, everyday thing
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: to eat. That's just dried.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: So did you bring your own food or did you
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: have to hunt for food?
• 6:34
  Speaker 3: So you bring your own food, but there are other
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: rendezvous that are kind of invite only. And I don't
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: even think a lot of people who do rendezvous knew
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: about these. But there's ones that I think they're called.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: I think I might be speaking out of school. Somebody
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: might send me an email after this, but I'm going
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: to talk about it anyway because I never got read
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: the right act. They're called juried. I think they called
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: them juried Southerns. And I've only been to one of those.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: And that's where everything in the camp has to be pre-1840.
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: You meet down in a parking lot. You put everything
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: on the back of a mule. When I did mine,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: it was up in the, I think it was the Bighorns. So,
• 7:04
  Speaker 3: you know, you talk to a rancher, get everything packed up.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: You go into the back of the Bighorns, and everything
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: in camp has to be pre-1840, as close as it
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: can get. They'll even look at your stitching and say, oh,
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: that was sewn with a sewing machine. You've got to
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: take that off. And it's always these weird, like, eccentric
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: history teachers that run them, like guys who, you know,
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: teaches history at Berkeley or something like that or other places.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: They just really enjoy living like this. And at those ones,
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: if they're in season, you can hunt whatever's in season there.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: You're hunting with traditional archery. It's really good for kids.
• 7:38
  Speaker 3: The internet wasn't a problem as much when I was
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: a kid. I was certainly into computers. I have been
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: since I was a child. But you could just detach.
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: Everyone's running around crazy, sitting around the campfire at night.
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: People are singing songs on the guitar. You're learning how
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: to do things like this. You're learning how to brain tan.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: You're learning how to live traditionally. And it's an eccentric
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: cult kind of. It's not a cult. It's an eccentric
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: group of people. It's a lot of fun. People take
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: it very seriously. Community. People take it very seriously. There's
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: more advertising surrounding it now than there used to be
• 8:09
  Speaker 3: because numbers are kind of dwindling. But I did my
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: last one last year with my brother. So if you
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: go on my Instagram, there's a picture of my brother,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: my son, and I doing, I think, our second rendezvous together.
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: And we're just dressed like, you know. I've actually got
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: an awesome war shirt. I can show you the picture.
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: I've got an awesome war shirt that a friend of
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: mine went to war with. He was half Native American.
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: His grandfather was.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: Ojibwe or something, Chippewa, something like that. And he was,
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: I don't remember what his role was, but anyway, I went,
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: we deployed to Iraq together and his grandpa made me
• 8:44
  Speaker 3: this war shirt. Oh, there, you found it, Jamie. He
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: pulled it up. That's my lodge.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: How much do you enjoy a shower after you get
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: out of here?
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, as long as you keep, you know, they
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: have showers in camp. They've got a showering area where
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: it's just like pallets. That's the inside of my lodge. Um,
• 9:05
  Speaker 3: so there's a cooler at this one. This is not
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: a jury rendezvous. Um, and, uh, so you can shower
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: while you're there. Some of them, they call them hooters.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: There'll be like a latrine and a shower area in camp,
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: but also like some of them, I don't, I don't
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: do it at all.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: This is wild.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: And so there's no reenactment. Like there's not like civilians
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: walking around.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: It's not like Renaissance.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. It's just more like, I want to act
• 9:28
  Speaker 3: like it's 1840 for a couple of weeks and not
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: look at my phone one time and not worry about
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: the news. it's amazing after a week here, you really
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: forget about the world and you're like, don't even know
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: you're supposed to be stressed out about things. You're just
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: out there doing your thing for a couple of weeks.
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: And you just cook over open fire.
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: Everything gets done traditionally that way. Yeah.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: And did you bring your own meat?
• 9:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah. You bring your own meat and stuff in the cooler. Um,
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: and then, uh, there's also cooking classes where they teach
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: you like all the recipes to do with like a
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: Dutch oven, like an old cast iron oven. And, uh,
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: they do gambling at nights. So you'll walk into like
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: a huge, they call them marquees, but it's like a
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: huge hundred foot square lodge. There'll be three gambling tables
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: and there are girls in like the low cut shirts
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: and dealing cards and smoking cigars and just having an
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: amazing time. And there are people, you go by camp
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: names while you're in there. Nobody uses their real name. Well,
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: some people use their real name. I'd say 60% of
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: people don't use their real name.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: What was your camp name?
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: This is embarrassing.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: It should be.
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So, uh, I got my camp name. I got
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: christened with my camp name in the big horns when
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: I was 14 or 13 and it was talks a lot.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Talks a lot.
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And Sue, it was pronounced Iota. And, uh, just
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: cause you talk a lot or when I was a kid,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: I talked a lot. Actually as an adult, I don't
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: talk that much unless I know you. Um, But as
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: a kid, I would never shut up. I had really
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: bad ADHD. They kind of diagnosed me with having some
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: low level version of Asperger's. And, uh, I was a
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: rapscallion in class, just never shut up, never listened, never
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: did anything.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: And, uh, those are the people that are the most fun.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: Well, they didn't enjoy me in high school or in
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: grade school. But, uh, yeah, they, they can't call me out. Uh, uh,
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: and you know, we got christened and, uh, it was a,
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: you know, it's a, One of the things we're kind
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: of missing in culture today or something that I'm trying
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: to reinvigorate, especially with my son and with other young
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: men that I run into is kind of like coming
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: of age rights.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Something to say, you're a man and I'm going to
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: start treating like a man from this moment forward. Like,
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: you know, what does that there should be structure to that?
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: You know, we're tribal and it's important to me.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: So I think that is really something that's missing from society.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: I think that. I used to think it was silly
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: when I was young. And then as I got older,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: I realized, oh, I went through that. I became a
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: black belt and I started fighting.
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: And you had a group of men telling you, you're
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: at this level, we're going to treat you like that.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: And if you fall from grace, we're going to remind
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: you right away. And we just don't do that with
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: young men. And we have a society now where young
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: men act like young men until they're 45 or 50
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: or 60.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: And sometimes never stop. Yeah.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: And, you know, women, nature imposes itself on women. They
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: become fertile. They're able to have babies. And they've got
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: to seek security or find a husband or a really
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: good job that will supplement whatever a husband would provide.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: And they've got to start acting like a woman. Whereas
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: men can sit in a basement, you know, and it
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: becomes very dangerous.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Especially men that never have children.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: They're perpetual children. Yeah.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: And if you don't impose nature on yourself by undergoing
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: those types of rights and understanding what it means to
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: become a man. Nature will impose itself on you by
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: either A, you're never going to have children and therefore
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: you're dead forever. Or B, it will kill you because
• 12:47
  Speaker 3: you're fat and in your mom's basement, you get diabetes,
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: the foot chopped off and you're 35. And, you know,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: we just don't tell men we don't have a the
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: military did it for me. I had really put off
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: responsibility or seeking meaning or any of those things. Until
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: I was in the military. And like I said, my
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: father died when I was five. So I really had
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: no central male authority until I was about 13 or
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: 14 when I met this guy, Steve. And he kind
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: of initiated some of those rights for me and held
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: me to account. But it was really the military, which
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: was a turning point for me where there was a
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: standard and I was expected to hold it.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: I think there's a reason why most ancient cultures and
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of ancient religions have these rites of passages
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: where you are like now officially, officially a man.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Officially, you know, you're responsible. You have to think of
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: yourself as a different thing now. Whereas if you leave
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: it up to your own decision, men sort of dwindle
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: into this perpetual state of childhood. Yep.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: And it's not about you anymore. It's about other people.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: Like that for me, having children, I've got four kids. really,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: you know, the military was kind of the first inkling
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: of responsibility, but then having children and realizing this isn't
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: about me at all, and I need to be willing
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: to break my back for these people who depend on me.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: There's this weird primal feeling that you're responsible for these
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: very vulnerable little people that you love more than life itself.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: It just changes everything. It just kicks you into gear.
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: But for some people, it doesn't. Some people that are
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: so stuck in that perpetual childhood thing They just wind
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: up deciding it's too much of a drag and they
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: get divorced.
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: And then they fuck up the kids.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah. God, we have so many rabbit holes we could
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: go down on this. But I mean, it was, you know,
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: growing up in the 80s and the early 90s, it
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: was really like a divorce culture. And I obviously understand
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: that if you're in a bad relationship or an abusive
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: relationship or, you know, there's certainly there's a threshold where
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: marriage should dissolve. No question. But I kind of feel
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: like it. The central thrust of a lot of culture
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: at that time was about like divorce or not getting
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: married or, you know, discovering yourself and that type of thing,
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: which in some ways is good. There's goodness there. But
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: when it becomes a central thrust or a central narrative
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: and divorce becomes very easy or it's happening everywhere.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: It's super normalized.
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: And it's normalized. It's super destructive. Children are the ones
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: who suffer the most on it. And I think the
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: data is clear on that. Mm-hmm. When you look at,
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: you know, single parent homes or no parent homes or
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: being raised, you know, without an authority.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Or an abusive step person.
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: And that is, you know, when you look up the
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: stats on that, like remarriage and having a new family
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: like that, that becomes the single most likely vector of
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: abuse in a young child's life is that new person.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: Because now they're raising someone else's kid or whatever.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a that's in every old movie. The
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: evil stepmother.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Or evil stepfather, but in the old movies, it's always
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the stepmother that abuses the girl. Yes.
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: And, and, and so, you know, I kind of, uh,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: I kind of resented that part of that time. That
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: culture was, um, I shouldn't say when I was a child,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I should say as I got older, cause I wasn't
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: a single mom home. And, uh, the guy that my
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: mother remarried right after my father died was abusive. And, um,
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: you know, he really got hard on my younger brother and,
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: you know, my mother moved us out almost immediately. But, uh,
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: when I reexamined that time, it really was, uh, you know,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know how to describe it, but you know,
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: there are no rules when it comes to relationships and
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: family and every family special in particular in its own way.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: And they all need to be venerated. And there's of course,
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: some truth to that. We shouldn't deride someone because they
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: come from a broken family, but we shouldn't elevate it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Like it's at the same level as a unified family. Um,
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: and that's a tricky line to to walk. But also
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: the people who are making those movies in that culture
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: came from the fifties and sixties where divorce was just
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: not in the cards. And so that was a, you know,
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Hook's law, as you bend any object, it wants to
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: return back to its natural state. And Hook's law kind
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: of played there where nobody could get divorced in the forties, thirties, forties, fifties,
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: and sixties. And then you had the baby boomers who
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: kind of culturally said, you know, actually there's, it's not
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: as bad as we think, but then it over-corrected and
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: it became kind of part of that cultural zeitgeist.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: That's kind of what humans do, right? We always overcorrect.
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we do.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: We go in one direction until we realize it's destructive,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: and then we overcorrect until we realize that's destructive. Yeah.
• 17:27
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• 18:38
  Speaker 3: And I would say that's the, and not, this isn't
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: a political thing, this is just the reality of it.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: That's mostly what makes me conservative in nature. is I
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: agree systems need to change, but they need to change
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: slowly and pragmatically. So we, because, you know, any social,
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: any social scientists worth their salt will know a social
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: experiment almost never has the outcome that we thought it
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: was going to have. In other words, we thought doing
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: something to society would form society this way, but it
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: almost has the, the inverse, the anti-pattern, like we talked
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: about before, and it almost ends up propagating itself. And
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: so that makes me, I'm, I'm still a, proponent for change,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: but it should be slow and thought out and done
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: in pockets first.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Kind of, you know, federalism. Let's do little changes here.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: Let's let California be crazy for a while and see
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: how that works out for them. But let's not nationalize
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: the craziness. Let's learn from what they learned there. And
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: there'll be goodness, you know, hot baristas that make great
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: coffee and cool art. And let's take those parts. But
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: how about the Rampant homeless. Let's find out what caused
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: that and solve for that. And, you know, that was
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: kind of the founder's intent with federalism. They're really federalists. state-minded.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: And there's, you know, even for that being 250 years ago,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: there's a profound amount of profanity in that. Like, let's
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: change things slowly and let social experiments take place and
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: adopt the best parts of those things and then integrate
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: them to the culture overall as we move along. But,
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: you know, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Yeah.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: I think in this country, one of the primary problems
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: that people have is a profound lack of respect for
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: discipline and how important discipline is for your life. And
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: discipline is associated with conservatism. And because of that, like
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of people think that I'm, I don't think
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I'm anything. I think I have politically or ideologically, I
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: have a lot of everything in me. I don't think
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I identify with one side or another. But if one
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: thing that I agree with conservative people on, conservative people
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: lend more towards the importance of discipline. Hard work, discipline,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: don't complain, get things done, deal with the hand that
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: you've been dealt with and just sort it out and
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: get to work. Don't cry. Don't look for other people
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: to save you. They're not going to. And this is
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: not something that's celebrated in society. It's thought of as
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: a cruelty thing. That if you say that you need discipline,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: that you're not treating these people that are victims of
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: circumstance with the proper respect or with the proper empathy.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: And I think a certain amount of empathy is probably
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: not so good for you at a certain point in time.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: There comes a point in time where you're letting people
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: wallow in their bullshit and just make excuses for why
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: they're not getting anything done. And in that sense, I
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: think California is– that is a giant part of what's
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: wrong with California. What's wrong with California when it comes
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: to crime? What's wrong with California? The way they address
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: crime and the way they address homelessness and all these
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: issues that they have, they don't put their foot down.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: At a certain point in time, you've got to realize
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: what Gad Saad calls suicidal empathy. Society can suffer from
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: suicidal empathy. At a certain point in time, you've got
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: to enforce rules and you've got to make it so
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: that people have to get their shit together.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that suicidal empathy... becomes a way for the
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: person who's imposing it on someone else to feel good
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: about themselves, which makes it even trickier and even more
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: insidious because they're feeling good from the weaponization of other
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: people's lot in life. And the thing about that is
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: none of the rules that you're going to impose, especially
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: as a legislator or as somebody in a think tank,
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: you'll never feel the repercussions of them. You'll never have
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: to actually deal with it day to day. You're just
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: imposing it on someone else and saying, I better understand
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: the structure of reality and the fabric of the world.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: And you can't help but be this way. It's the
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: system that's done this to you. So let me give
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: you pittance that I'm going to take from someone else.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: And that makes me benevolent. I get to feel good
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: about that.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: That's a giant part of government for sure. That's a
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: giant part of what's the problem with like liberal governments.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: Liberal governments should, they should get paid based on whether
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: or not the city does better or worse financially than
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: when they were in office. If their policies lead to
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: greater domestic production of goods and services and GDP does
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: better and everything does better, then you should get paid more.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: If more real estate sales, more people are making more money,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: medium income raises, less homeless people, you should get paid more.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: And you should get paid less if homelessness goes up,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: if crime goes up, if there's more destruction, if there's
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: more assaults and home invasions, you should get paid less.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: You're doing a shitty job. And if you did that,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I think they would impose laws that made it safer
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: and healthier and made it better for society.
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and then they would just inevitably change the ways
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: that we track and measure those things and pay themselves more.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Well, they shouldn't have the opportunity to do that. Then
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: you need some sort of an oversight. I'm being cynical.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: You're right, though. You're right to be cynical because that's
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: what they do about everything. Someone was explaining to me
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: yesterday that One of the problems with cleaning up fraud
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: is that fraud is responsible for a giant percentage of GDP.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: And if you have hundreds of billions of dollars of
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: fraud in this country and you eliminated that, you actually
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: lower GDP because you actually lower the amount of money
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: that's in circulation.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: That's interesting. I've never thought about that before.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: He was explaining to me and I was like, oh,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: my God, that is crazy. that a giant percentage of
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: our GDP is fraud. And if that was somehow or
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: another eliminated, it'd be like one of the things that
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: they do when they raise jobs, like they increase GDP.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: We've added, you know, 200,000 jobs to the market. Well,
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: what are those jobs? Like, what are those jobs? Are
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: these government jobs? Because the government is a giant percentage
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: of our GDP. Government jobs.
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: It's way bigger than it should be.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Way bigger. And those jobs, a lot of them are
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: bullshit and waste. A lot of them.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: And that was some of the stuff that was uncovered
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: during Doge. The limited amount of access that Doge had
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: to it. Just the beginning of it where you got
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: to see the curtain pulled back and get to see
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: exposure of so many of these fraudulent, supposedly... Charitable organizations
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: that were really just money laundering. They're really just funneling
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: money into these People's hands like like the homeless thing
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: in California.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: It's about bonkers Situation where they've spent 24 billion dollars.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: They cannot track it. They've tried to audit it the
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: government has vetoed these audits and And they have no
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: idea where that $ 24 billion went, and yet homelessness went up.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: But you've got a giant machine that is this homeless establishment,
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: this homeless industrial complex that is being funneled money into that,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and that actually aids the GDP, which is kind of crazy.
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it was one of the things, my
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: last three years in the military, I was advising a
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: colonel and a two-star general. and they were in charge
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: of all of the offensive cyber development, ethical hacking, offensive
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: cyber development. I was their technical advisor. And one of
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: the things I kind of learned about government at that
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: point was these systems have their own incentive, and the
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: incentive is not the output of their purported mission. The
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: incentive is the growing of the organization and the execution
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: of budget. So while they're in there, you know, I've
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: never seen a field grade officer get dressed down more
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: than when he didn't spend all of the money that
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: he was budgeted for for that year.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Isn't that crazy?
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: He would go to the Pentagon and they'd be like, well,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: you didn't execute $ 300 million of OCO, of Overseas Contingent
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: Operations funds here. And they would dress him down for
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: an hour.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: And what people don't understand is if you don't spend
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: that money. your budget for the next year will be
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: lower because there's no need to have a higher budget.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: Instead of tying it to mission to say, did you
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: achieve your mission objectives? We started the year agreeing from
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: the president's framework, the NIPF, the National Intelligence Priority Framework.
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: We wanted to achieve these effects. What you would want
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: to hear is, we achieved them and we saved 25%.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: But instead it's, we achieved them, but we didn't execute
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: all of this money. Well, you're fired. And I literally
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: have seen that happen. I've literally seen that happen. And
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: that kind of.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: What a sick society.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that kind of shifted my thinking in that
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: these systems have their own incentive to exist and to
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: grow because those guys that were holding that general officer,
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: that 06s, that colonel's feet to the fire, they also
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: have an incentive to, because they were part of that
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: trickle down and they've got bureaucracy that surrounds them. And
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: if they didn't execute it, that means they didn't execute it.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: And that means they have to go to whomever This
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: was during the Biden administration. I believe Hegseth, for everything
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: we could say, has actually tightened this up quite a bit.
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: And he's kind of rehauled the way development works, especially
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: on the offensive cyber side. But they have bureaucracies and
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: the incentive of the bureaucracy is to make sure that
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: we grow. And that's it. And then you think about
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: that for a minute and you're like, well, it's no
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: longer a question why we have $ 30 trillion of debt.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: $ 39 trillion.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: And then what, like $ 150 trillion of unfunded liability? In
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: other words, we've promised people money for the next 30 years. And,
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: and it's debt that, you know, I don't see how
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: we'll ever escape that debt. Um, and it's the thing
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: about it is, is, and I don't want to be
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: pigeonholed because I'm actually quite liberal when it comes to
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: my politics are, are like yours in that I'm kind
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: of a man without a home, but they also change
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: at different levels of analysis. I'm very liberal with my
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: family and I'm very like communist. I protect them. I
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: give them everything they need. I'm trying to give them structure.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: And even in my community, I'll help someone out out
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: of pocket or do something for them that's a strain
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: on my time or might hurt something else because there
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: are really no solutions. There's just trade-offs.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: That's supportive for the community, though. That's how people are
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: supposed to do charity.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: And I'm also very nonjudgmental in someone how they care.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: I don't care what they do in their house. I
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: don't care if it's a Roman orgy on the weekends. Like,
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: be a predictable, productive person Monday through Friday and go
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: do your Roman orgy on the weekend. I don't care.
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: I won't judge you. Like, I don't. I really have
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: enough crap in my own life.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: As long as someone's not getting hurt.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, as long as no one's getting hurt, consenting adults.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Like I have enough problems and I screw up enough
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: and people have, there's a laundry list of things that
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: people can say about me, how I've screwed up in
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: my life. But then as I graduate and get higher
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: and higher, more conservatism takes place. And that's a result
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: of just, having an engineering mindset when I'm looking at
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: life and understanding that it's just not Republican or Democrat
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: or leftist or rightist or liberal or classically liberal. All
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: of these monikers don't work for me because they break
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: down at some level of analysis.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: Right. I think that's the problem. I think the problem
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: is these ideologies that people subscribe to, where you have
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: a predetermined pattern of thinking that you're supposed to adopt.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: You're supposed to adopt these opinions. And some of them
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: just don't fit. And that's how people get pigeonholed. That's
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: like people on the left. They get pigeonholed into weird
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: stuff that you can't really justify, like trans women in sports. Like,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: what the fuck are you doing? We're being inclusive. Like, no,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: you're not.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: We're loving the borders of Ukraine while hating our own border. Yeah.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Fucking bonkers. Yeah. There's so many crazy things. There's so
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: many crazy things that people just adopt that don't make
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: any sense. And, you know, when you subscribe to an ideology,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: the problem is if like you define yourself as this person,
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: I am this. I am a hardcore right-wing blah, blah,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. You immediately close the door to all
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: the very productive and interesting things that the other side thinks. Yeah.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: And you're also making yourself into a tool of propaganda.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Because if I meet someone and they just say, I'm this,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, I could reasonably predict everything that's going
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: to come out of your mouth. That's not entertaining. I
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: don't want to have a conversation with that person. I
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: can't seek to learn from them because I could just
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: pick up the Communist Manifesto or Mein Kampf and have
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: a pretty good understanding of who I'm dealing with. And therefore,
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: a conversation is not. It's not relevant. It's not needed.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: A lot of people are afraid of social ostracization too.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: So they're afraid of straying outside of the narrative, whatever
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: side they're supposed to be on. And, you know, some
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: groups are really good at making you feel like dog
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: shit if you don't agree entirely with even things that
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: don't even make any sense.
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: So that's why people go along with stuff that's illogical,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: like open borders or whatever it is.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: They go along with things that's not in their best
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: interest because they're scared. They're scared of being ostracized. They're
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: scared of being cast out of the kingdom. There's, you know,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: they're scared of being excommunicated.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I dealt with a lot of people first when
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: I retired from the military. And then more recently, um,
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: leading up to the last election where, you know, I
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: was entertaining the deal of doing some work for government, um,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: believe it or not. And cause I'm, as we talk more,
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: you'll figure out I'm pretty anti institutions. I'm really, uh,
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: against those types of things. But I really felt, if
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: you would have asked me three years ago how I
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: felt about the Trump election and all of that stuff,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: I was very excited because he was saying a lot
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: of things that I wanted someone to say. Trump fits
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: a pattern, and this is what people, I think, kind
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: of lack when they.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: My whole life is built around pattern analysis. I really
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: enjoy patterns and exhuming and looking into patterns. And there's
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: a pattern of like a.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: You'll laugh when I say this first part of the pattern,
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: but then I'll make it make more sense later. But
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: he fits the pattern. Well, first, he's a Jacksonian and
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: in that he's a pragmatic person, the way that he governs,
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: which I liked, or at least I did. And, you know,
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: there's some things he's done recently that I don't enjoy.
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: And but he's also a an outsider or a savior
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: type all, you know. I don't remember the movie, but
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: The Magnificent Seven back in the day. I don't remember
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: the actor's name. There's this group of, you know, there's
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: this Western town. Everything's going to shit. These seven guys
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: walk in. I think Chris Pratt remade it with Denzel
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: Washington or someone else.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, really?
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: I think so. I can't remember. But there's an old
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: one that I used to watch with my grandpa.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: God, there's too many movies.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And there's this pattern where you wouldn't invite these
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: guys to a dinner party. You wouldn't want them in
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: church on Sunday. But when a system is so corrupt
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: and so horrible... You have to rely on these types
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: of people to come in and be a check to
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: the system. But then also you don't want them to
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: stick around when the system is reset. So there's a
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: scene in the movie where he says, you know, man,
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: these seven guys are talking. They said, man, these people
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: must have really wanted us. Like, it's crazy. They must
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: be happy we're here. And I think it's Gary Cooper
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: or someone or one of these guys looks at him
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: and says, they're going to be even happier when we leave.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: And Trump kind of fits that narrative. Wolverine from the
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: X-Men would be another one who fits this narrative. Like,
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Is he going to be at the X-Men Christmas party?
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: No, right?
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: Is he trying to hit on Scott Gray's wife, Cyclops?
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: I'm a comic nerd, so I'm sorry. Is he trying
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: to sleep with Cyclops' wife?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: Did he chop a guy's head off and throw it
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: at a car? Yes. But we're about to go face Galactus,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: and we're going to need him. And so we have
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: to put up with all of this other stuff because
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: we understand that when the system is corrupt at every level,
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: you need someone who's outside of the system to come
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: in and set the system right. It's a Western pattern
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: as well. Other people who fit this would be like Patton, right?
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: Married his cousin, slapped soldiers.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: Did he really? He married his cousin?
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was his third cousin.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: How many cousins removed does it become okay?
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Is it third, fourth?
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: If there's blood.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: Have you never met them?
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: I'm Icelandic, so I really can't say anything, right? They
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: literally have apps in Iceland. Like my grandparents and my
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: great grandparents are all from Iceland. They settled in Manitoba, Gimli, Manitoba,
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: which is this Icelandic community. And they literally have apps
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: in Iceland to make sure you're not dating your cousin.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Because it's such a small community.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: Less than a million people on one island. So you're
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: trying to prevent that stuff. But anyway, Patton, yeah, slapped
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: soldiers who had tuberculosis. One of them probably had shell shock.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: It got in the newspaper. They wanted his head. And thankfully,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: the generals were like, no, he's the guy that we
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: need for the moment, right? He had the ivory pistols
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: and He dressed not like a general. He didn't talk
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: like a general. He wasn't like a Eisenhower where he
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: had the veneer of a general. But we knew he
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: was the only guy we could have at the Battle
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: of the Bulge. The Germans talked about him like he
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: was already a mythic legend in his lifetime. But part
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: of this pattern that people should understand or when they
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: examine this pattern is it never ends well for these antiheroes.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: They're always killed or defamed in the final analysis. So
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: when the Magnificent Seven come in, they'll go to another
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: town and all get killed. When Patton retired, he died
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: in some weird Jeep accident. Wolverine, he's the only guy
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: left on this desolate world where the Hulk's in charge,
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: and it's a horrible existence. Patton, or not Patton, Petraeus
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: is another one. I briefed Petraeus. I worked for, not
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: for him, but for people who worked for him in Iraq.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: And he was the guy that got us through with
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: the surge. But he was really a weird guy when
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: you would talk to him. You knew that he knew
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: something you didn't and that he was seeing things that
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: you weren't. But even for myself, as being a chief
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: warrant officer at that time, a low-level technician, he would
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: ask questions like he got it. He didn't act like
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: other generals. Like other generals would have their three things
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: they want to talk about, then they'd want to get
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: out of Dodge. He would ask questions that really had implications.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: And he is another one of these outsiders who came
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: in to write a system that was not working well.
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: vis-a-vis Iraq in 2006. And then what happens to him
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: when he leaves? They put him in charge of the CIA.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: They knew he had been screwing around with this woman.
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: And they're like, okay, he served his function. Now he
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: needs to get out of Dodge. And now he's got
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: tried for all these things and sleeping with someone while
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: he wasn't married. It's not a ceremonious end for these types.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: Is that really what happened to Petraeus?
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: That's how he ended?
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he was sleeping with some girl that was writing
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: his book or something along those lines.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: That's it?
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: While he was married? Yeah, I'm not saying that's the
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: end of him. All I'm saying is that history will
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: remember the pattern as ending unfavorably. You know what I'm saying?
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: And so when I examined Trump, I said, yeah, I
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: don't like what he says. I wouldn't want him around
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: my daughters. I wouldn't want him at a dinner party.
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: But he seems to be saying these things like he's
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: going to reset this system. you know, I think it
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: was Chappelle was on your show or another show or
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: someone like that, where he talked about Hillary saying, uh,
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: you know, something about the tax loopholes or whatever. And
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: he just hit right back at her and said, well,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: you're the people who are funding your campaign, take advantage
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: of those same loopholes. And if they're there, I'm going
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: to take advantage of them. I wouldn't be a pragmatist
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: if I didn't. When he started saying stuff like that,
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: it seemed to me like he was going to upend
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: this system. Uh, the jury's out on that because I
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: don't know how I feel these days. We can get
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: into that if you need to, or if we want to, but, um,
• 38:19
  Speaker 3: he's an outsider personality and I thought he was going
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: to really reset the system. And there are, you know,
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: good things that are happening. You know, if I were
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: to grade him, I would probably give him a C
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: plus or a B minus. He's certainly better than, you know,
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: what was happening under Biden. I was still in the
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: military when Biden was in charge and it was awful
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: to say the least.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: What were the problems?
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Books that general officers were being told
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: to read and that I as an advisor were being
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: told to read. Books like White Rage. like understanding why
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: you're a problem. You as a white man are a
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: problem in the modern day military because this whole thing's
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: built on systemic racism. You have built implicit bias that
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: you can't escape even if you wanted to or you
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: recognized it.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: It's woke politics.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was woke politics. And it was, you know,
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: I would sit there and say, you know, all of
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: the people that I know who've died during this war,
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: not all of them, but 80% of them, And the
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: numbers bear this out when you look at them. They're
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: all white guys from the middle of the country who
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: were on their farms or, you know, not all of them,
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: 80% of them. I think the numbers bear out about
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: 80% of them were these guys from the Midwest. or
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: these places where they didn't really have a lot going.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: And they went off to fight a war that we
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: probably shouldn't have been fighting in the first place, especially
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: in Iraq. And they died for their cause. And now
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: you're saying that those people who make up the majority
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: of the combat deaths are somehow part of this problem
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: and that other people aren't benefiting from it. Um, I
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: don't believe race to me is disgusting. Even to talk
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: about someone's race, even, you know, on both sides of
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: the spectrum, when they were, you know, electing that Supreme
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: court justice, I can't remember her name right now at
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: the top of my head, just cause I'm a little
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: nervous still. Um, she was black and they were.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: Talking to Brown. Yeah.
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: They're talking about how it's historic because she's black and
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: Biden had said he's going to hire a black woman
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: to do this job. If I had worked my whole
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: life to do something, but now I'm only being elevated
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: to this next position because of my gender and the
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: color of my skin, I would turn that job down
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: so fast because that's not what I want to be
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: known for. These are immutable characteristics that I'm not in
• 40:28
  Speaker 3: control of. I didn't choose to be born white or
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: with blue eyes. I didn't choose to be born in
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: a trailer park in the middle of nowhere without a
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: dad at five. I didn't choose any of those things.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: I don't see how I benefit from these things at
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: the individual level. And, you know, the individual level of
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: analysis for me is really the only way to evaluate
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: someone for their pluses and their minuses. And anything beyond
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: that to me is discriminatory on its face.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Of course. It's just a great way to control people
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: because you pit people against each other that way. And
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: it's just an awesome way that they can stay in
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: control and make everybody walk on eggshells and think that
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: You know, they've victimized people in order to get to
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: their position, and they have to be shameful of who
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: they are that they had no control over.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: It also gives people an easy rubric to judge other people.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: Because nothing's easy, really. And it gives them, like, white
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: guy bad, you know, black guy good, Chinese guy, as
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: long as he's not applying to the college I want
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: to get into, he's good. Right. And it gives people— people
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: want easy answers, right? Really, at the end of the day,
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: they want to be told the easy rubric to navigate
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: life because really none of it's easy and it requires discipline,
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: like you said before, and thought. And so it was
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: that stuff in the military. I remember getting told in
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: an equal opportunity briefing we were getting, it doesn't matter
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: what you meant when you said what you were saying.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: It only matters what the person felt when you said it.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: They said that in a military briefing?
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: It was a military equal opportunity briefing. And the example
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: they gave was if a woman walks into the... We
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: worked with a lot of civilians at this military organization
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: where we were developing these offensive cyber capabilities. A lot
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: of civilians in there. And so if a woman X
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: walks in today and she's got a dress on and
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: the thought in your head is, I'd like to get
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: my wife that dress or something like it or find
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: out where she bought it. And you just say, that's
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: a nice dress. Anyway, here's the TPS reports. If she
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: heard something sexual or didn't like the connotation or whatever,
• 42:34
  Speaker 3: there's going to be an investigation. You're going to be
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: pulled out of that office. This is all going to
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: happen despite what you meant. So the idea probably was good.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: We want to prevent sexual harassment inside of the office. Um,
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: but it was weaponized, but it was weaponized and it
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: was carried out in a way where it's only about
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: how people feel and not what a reasonable person standard
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: would be in a particular situation. And from the time
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: I joined the military, um, Until that time, we'd been
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: at war. My entire time in the military, we were
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: at war. I deployed throughout my career. And I wouldn't
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: say that I was a war horse. I was not
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: a long tabber. I was not a cool guy kicking
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: in doors. It was my job as the guy with
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: tape over his glasses to point out the door for
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: someone else and say, bad guys in there. So I
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: was not a super badass in that regard. I was
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: a nerd for super badasses. But we also all engaged
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: in gallows humor.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: And we would.
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: The jokes and stuff, even someone who had recently died,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: we'd make a joke about. It's because you have this
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: tremendous pressure and comedy is the relief valve for that
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: in a lot of ways.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: But then someone would overhear that joke or something. And
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: now you're looking down the barrel of a 15-6, which
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: is a military investigation. And all of these things that
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: could permanently impact your life in a way and give
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: you a scarlet letter. to where you could never be
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: employed again or do anything ever again because you were
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: simply trying to relieve some pressure or you were trying
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: to find out where to buy your wife the next
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: dress and now your life's being ruined. And I know
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: guys who suffered under that sword. Like I wouldn't name them,
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: but I know guys who, you know, their career met
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: a terminal end because of a dumb joke or something.
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: It's like you can't be expected to go out and
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: shoot people in the face and then be sensitive to
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: someone's feelings an hour later. Right. It's just it doesn't
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: it does not work. Now, should you talk to that
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: guy and say, hey, you know, you made woman X
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: feel so and so. Be more cognizant of that whenever
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: you're around her in the future.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: We should also have a rational discussion with the woman.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: And what did he ask you? He said, where did
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: you get that dress? It's very lovely. I'd like to
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: get one for my wife. Why were you upset at that? Like,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: what does this is this rational? Like how you can't
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: be in an office if you're that sensitive. Like, it's
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: one thing if the guy said, I'd like to get
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: you out of that dress. Well, for sure. Okay, now
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: you're in a different world.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: 100%. 100%. Right. Yeah.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: But if someone says, you look great, you know, have
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: you lost weight? You look fantastic. That's a compliment.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: And if someone gets upset, I felt sexually objectified. I
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: felt harassed. Like, okay, he just said you look great.
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: Healthy.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: It's not, you look great. I'd like to get you naked.
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Now we've crossed the Rubicon, right?
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Now we're into it.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: For sure.
• 45:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Just you look great or I like your dress. That's like,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: if you said that to a man, like, hey, great suit.
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: And he's like, I need to file a complaint. Yeah.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: I need to file a complaint.
• 45:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. You've trimmed up, Joe. You're looking good.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Looking great, Bill. Like, oh my God, I'm being harassed.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: I need to like complain.
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: That would have worked during the Biden administration.
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: That is fucking crazy.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: That would have worked.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: That's so crazy.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: And the other thing that they were doing in this briefing,
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: which is where I kind of, you know, the last
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: couple of years of my military career, I got in
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: trouble a couple of times, or I should say called down.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: I was a senior... I was a CW4. I was
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: one rank from the top. I was advising two-star generals,
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: colonels on very important matters. I wasn't high in the
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: dominance hierarchy, but I was adjacent to people who were
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: as an advisor. And the amount of, in this briefing
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: in particular, they had gotten into, you know, it's bad
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: that there are so many white people I'm doing high
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: points here, but we need more diversity. I was part
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: of an accepted career program that they were starting to
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: call like the old white boys network because most of
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: the people, so the requirements for this network were you
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: had to speak a couple languages. You needed an engineering
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: degree or some kind of demonstrated engineering background. You had
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: to have deployed. They wanted you to speak the language
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: very well. They wanted you to be able to go
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: through these engineering courses, these other things. And what happens
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: naturally is you now need people who are interested in engineering.
• 46:54
  Speaker 3: All right. So you've got somebody who's maybe more constrained
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: in their thinking. You need somebody who speaks languages. Well,
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: now they also need to be kind of, you know,
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: speak French, speak Russian, whatever it was. So they had
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: to have studied or lived in an area and done this.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: And they need to be able to go through these
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: crazy tactical and strategic types of courses. By virtue of
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: those things, you're going to get men. And there were
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: lots of women, but then there'll be more white men.
• 47:21
  Speaker 3: And it's not because the pool presented itself that way.
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: Now you have to extract from that pool. And so
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: in this briefing, when they were talking about like the
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: old white boys network or how we need to change things,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: I said, you know, do you realize that most men
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: have more in common than most women? Or like if
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: I say I need more diversity in a particular room,
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: if you said diversity of thought, I'd be fine with that.
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: But Joe and random black guy in the same program,
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: in the same office, have far more in common than
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: the white woman. But what you're saying is these people
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: need to have all separate different colors and different– like
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: all of this needs to be this way. It's going
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: to naturally present itself that way because men in the
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: military generally are disagreeable. Men in the military who like
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: engineering are generally hyper-disagreeable. Yeah. And the only difference between
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: these two people is the pigment of their skin. So
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: this fake diversity quota that they're putting on top of
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: us doesn't achieve anything other than giving some officer a
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: bullet on their OER. And, you know, I got pulled
• 48:30
  Speaker 3: into the office afterward. I said way more than that.
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: But essentially afterwards, they're like, hey, chief, you can't say
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: that in those briefings. Like the way that you were
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: getting animated in there and what you're saying, what you're doing, like, yeah,
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: this is not going to fly. And this was like
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: 2018 or 2019 or something.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: Just being rational.
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, just trying to be rational and say that there's
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: more difference in groups than there is between groups. And
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: that the similarities and the way that things stack up,
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: you recruit from a pool of volunteers and candidates. If
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: I'm recruiting from a pool of volunteers and candidates who
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: are 80% male and white, I have to expect that
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: the selected individuals are going to be male and white.
• 49:08
  Speaker 3: The majority of people who join the military, I don't
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: control this. I'm just As an engineer, I'm looking at statistics.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Also, if you want a highly functional, productive group, it's
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: got to be based on meritocracy.
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: Anything other than that is literally a threat to national security.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're denigrating lethality. The role of the army is
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: to deter war through exuding superior military fighting and technology.
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: And when deterrence fails to win, that's it. Those are
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: the two things that we need to do with our military.
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: It needs to look like the guy in the playground
• 49:42
  Speaker 3: who you would not muck about with. And if you
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: were to muck with him, he will beat you senseless.
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: That's it. Now, whether or not we should be using
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: that all the time or how we use it, that's
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: a separate question. But the entity itself needs to comport itself.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: In this way.
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: Otherwise, you are endangering this truly special experiment, which at
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: least in its beginnings valued the individual. It valued individual
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: rights and states' rights. And the founders, and this was
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: another thing I said in that briefing, was the founders knew, yes,
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: they were all slaveholders, but they knew that the Constitution
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: and the Bill of Rights and the Declaration of Independence
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: would eventually lead to a system where we had to
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: acknowledge these people as people. And we fought a civil
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: war where a million white dudes died to see this
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: experiment through. The scaffolding was there. You have to look
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: at the things, the zeitgeist of the time. If they
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: had just said, nope, everyone's going to be free, there
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: will be no slaves, you would have never gotten ratification
• 50:44
  Speaker 3: through the southern states. But they knew that there are,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: and when you read the Federalist Papers, they knew that
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: they were erecting this system. When you look at Thomas
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: Jefferson and some of these other great thinkers, yes, he
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: owned slaves, I get it. They knew what they were
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: building and they knew what it would ultimately terminate in.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: And then we had a civil war where we destroyed
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: our country from the inside out. to see this dream
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: come about. And now we're just going to all go
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: back and say they're all slave owners. Like, I know
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: this has all been said here a million times, but
• 51:13
  Speaker 3: this stuff animates me because it's built with blood and treasure.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: Well, it's also, you can't judge people from the past
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: based on the standards of the present.
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: For sure.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: Because culture changes, people understand things better. We have a
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: much greater recognition of what was wrong with things a
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: hundred years ago, 200 years ago. And I'm sure in
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: the future, we're going to look back on today with
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: the same lens. There's, it's just always works that way.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: Did you know Joe had a gas powered car?
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: Exactly. That kind of stuff. Yeah.
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: Did you know that?
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: You consumed more, you flew more, you ate more meat,
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: you did whatever you did. You were a problem.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: He was a problem.
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: And now why would we ever, like I'm voting to
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: get rid of the Joe Rogan experience from the National
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: Archives because he drove a gas car. You know what
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: I mean? Like someone stores your stuff for profundity's sake
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: for the future to hear about this. I've always loved
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: your podcast, Joe, and it was because you're a genuinely
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: curious person, and I'm not kissing your ass right now.
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: You're a genuinely curious person that was saying things that
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: were not in the current zeitgeist at the time, and
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: you refused to apologize for it. And it led to
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: a lot of great things. But it led to an
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: updating of the system. And you did it with dialogue,
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: with the dialogos, with, you know, two people trying to
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: learn things about each other. And it led to an
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: updating of a system. I think it's very important for
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: culture to have free and open dialogue so we can
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: update our system. So bad ideas can die so we
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: don't have to die instead of our bad ideas. Yeah.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: Because if I can't express a bad idea, I have
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: to act it out. And if I act out the
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: bad idea, it could kill me.
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: And the celebration of good ideas.
• 52:53
  Speaker 3: And the celebration of good ideas. Yeah.
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: And.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: It's just really, there's just been such a weird inversion
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: in politics where the free hippie loving liberals of yesteryear
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: are now the ones telling you what words you can use.
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: There are no borders, all of these crazy things. And
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: I always say to people, I said it to Andy,
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: so I'm following my last podcast with him. I'm like
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: a 1996 Bill Clinton Democrat. If you go watch his
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: State of the Union, he talks about lowering debt. Getting
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: out of debt actually, working with Newt Gingrich to get
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: out of debt, securing the borders, making work and education
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: freely accessible. I'm voting for that guy.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: I know. Isn't it crazy? I mean that's why the
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: problem of labels doesn't work, ideological labels. Because if you
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: go back far enough and look at Clinton, for example,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: he's one of the best ones. And by the way,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: did balance the budget.
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he did.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: He actually did.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: We had a surplus when he left the office.
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Amazing. Did a fucking amazing job. So he got
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: his dick sucked.
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Who didn't? Back then, that's the other thing. Judging people
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: by the standards of the past, you know, JFK doesn't
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: look so good in the Me Too movement, you know?
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: Exactly. I mean, he would have got canceled. Yeah. It's
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: like you have to recognize that those– this ideological bubble
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: that we find ourselves in left versus right, Bill Clinton
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: does not fit in that. Bill Clinton is securely on
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: the right in terms of 1996 standards applied to today.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: He would never want to hear that.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: No, he would never want to hear that because he's
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: kind of shifted– with the zeitgeist because that's what you
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: kind of have to do if you want to stay
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: in your party and be protected by your party. But
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: he's essentially, he had a lot of the, we've talked
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: about this before, we've played clips of Hillary Clinton from 2008,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: She's more MAGA than MAGA. I know. Her take on
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: the border was like hardcore, was hardcore. If you've been
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: convicted of a crime, get out. If you stay here,
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: pay a stiff penalty and you have to get in
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: line and you have to learn English and everybody cheers.
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: That is a hardcore right-wing 2026 perspective.
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: Obama did it too in 2012.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. And Obama deported more people than Trump did.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by ThreatLocker. Data breaches
• 55:09
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• 55:56
  Speaker 3: And it's just, I'm not saying, like my thought is
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: I'm always updating. I'm always updating my systems. I'm always
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: getting told things. I always have a pre-prescribed way of
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: looking at the world that I'll have a good conversation
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: with someone and I'll update my systems. But generally, my
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: principles are in place. And when you watch these people
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: who get into their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, and
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: their core foundational principles are changing, that really should give
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: you cause for concern. Because, like, you were saying this
• 56:26
  Speaker 3: at this time, and now you're saying this at that time.
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: It's like, generally, my rubric that I don't think will
• 56:31
  Speaker 3: change about myself is I'm fervently for the individual, and
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: I'm fervently for truth. And that we can, that the
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: worldview You should measure it and look at not what
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: your intentions are but what the outcomes are and then
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: evaluate the system and how it scales based on those outcomes.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: That's principally if you– I try to live that standard
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: up to myself. I fall short of that standard all
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: the time. It's part of being a human. I try
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: to live by that standard. And I feel like that
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: will always be me even into my 90s.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Unless something goes horribly wrong, right?
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: Right, right. And I've pretty much been here since the
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: past seven or eight years or so. Even into my 30s,
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: I wasn't quite sure who I was as a human.
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: But I'm pretty steadfast in that. And the amount of
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: opportunities and the amount of goodness in my life and
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: my children and my home and the things I've been
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: able to do have really been born out of that
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: last seven years of The truth is going to be
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: the top of the decision matrix for me, the top
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: of the hierarchy for me. I'm going to try not
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: to cut corners whenever I can and help good people
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: around me. And the truth is the way that I'll
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: organize and function myself in life and that I will
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: try to only judge people as individuals. And the world,
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: you know, these are Christ's teachings from 2000 years ago.
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: And but the world for me has just opened up
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: in a way that I could have never predicted. using
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: a very simple rubric. It's not easy, but it's simple.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: And if more people just took those, and this isn't me,
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: I didn't come up with this. This is the result of,
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: you know, watching a bunch of experiments go bad. But
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: if people just adopted that very simple thing and just
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: tried it for three months, you'll feel better about yourself.
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: You'll feel better about the world. You feel better about
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: the people approximately around you. It might make you hate
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: the government more.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: But, uh, I don't.
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Think if you don't hate the government, I think you're
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: not paying attention.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, when you were working in cyber defense, like
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: what- Cyber offense. Cyber offense. What was the primary function? Like,
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: what did you do?
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: So in the beginning, I have no short answers and
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: I apologize. In the beginning- I don't like short answers. Yeah,
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: I just, I always feel like I'm- I like a
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: good long answer.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Don't worry about that. Okay.
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: When I joined the military, I was in signals intelligence
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: and essentially learning the ins and outs of radars. how
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: radars work, what they do, how they function. Did you
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: guys ever see any weird shit, like UFO shit? I
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: wish I had.
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: I really do. I wish you had too.
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I really do. I was more in the signals
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: intelligence side of the house, focusing first on electronic signals
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: or emanations from radars, mapping them so that, you know,
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: if we were going to go do the ground invasion
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: and there was going to be some air support going
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: in first and blowing shit up, we would tell them, hey,
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: there's a, man-packable SA-7 here, there's a SA-10 here, there's
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: this here, there's there, and then telling these pilots so
• 59:34
  Speaker 3: they didn't get shot out of the sky. Quickly, when
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: the war kicked off, that became irrelevant because there was
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: no surface-to-air missiles, surface-to-surface missiles in Iraq. We had knocked
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: them all out in the first few weeks. So then
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: it shifted to communications intelligence. So I kind of retrained
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: on communications intelligence, and that was at that time off
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: of cell phones, off of push-to-talk radios, repeaters, long-haul networks,
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: terrestrial networks, extraterrestrial networks, and what I mean by that
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: is satellites in the sky, and doing analysis on those
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: to try to inform what we call the common operating
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: picture of the battlefield for a combatant commander. So a
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: combatant commander wants to know where the bad guys are,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: what they're doing, what they're saying. To the amount that
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: we could, my job was to come up with solutions
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: and conduct passive and active signals analysis on these things
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: And then inform the commander so that we could, you know,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: mitigate risk. It was all about mitigation of risk. This
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: is 2008 or so. I'd been doing this for about
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: seven years, eight years. And from there it shifted to
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: the phone's getting smart. And essentially it went from you
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: walking around with a 2G phone or a 3G phone
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: that had limited compute capability to now there's robust compute
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: capability with the advent of like the iPhone. And now
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, now we've got to get after guys
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: who are, you know, essentially walking on with a computer
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: we could never have envisioned 20 years ago in their
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: pocket with all this capability. Because the military and our
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: forces that we're fighting against, it all comes down to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: our ability to shoot, move, and communicate, communication being the
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: part that I was focused on. So as the advent
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: of the iPhone and those things came out, the Army
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: realized we didn't have a computer network operations MOS. We
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: didn't have an offensive cyber component. We didn't have a
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: defensive cyber component. So we kind of, I was there
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: at the ground floor when we were building out these
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 3: new MOSs now that are all over the military. But
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 3: at that time, there was a thought going into, you know,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: we need to have people who know how to be
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: on-net operators. Ethical hacking, as paradoxical as that sounds. That's
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: how the lawyers called it that. So it's hacking at
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, but ethical hacking because you've
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: got the backing of the U.S. government. And so we
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 3: set up that framework and really started launching into operations,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: you know, 2006, 7, 8. all the way into my
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: last deployment in 2017 or 2017, it was all focused
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: on computer network operations and how they lash up with
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: terrestrial networks. How do we exploit all of that was
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: one facet of my job. And your question was, how
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: did I get into all of that? And that was the...
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: How do you.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Get into it? What was the operational aspect of it?
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: How did you actually... What did you do?
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: So, you know, there's, there's, I'll stick to terms that
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: are more, um, generally understood by the public, but learning
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: how to do things like war driving, um, collecting on networks, wifi,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: you know, endpoints, um, cell phones, uh, understanding the ins
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: and outs of them, understanding how to do forensic analysis
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: of them. So after there was an operation and a
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: bunch of gorillas had been sent in to kill the
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: bad guy, um, we could derive maximum intelligence value from
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: the hand, from the handset to plan other operations. Um,
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, it would be passive monitoring of
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: networks to inform the intelligence picture, which would lead to
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: either combat operations or active computer network operations where now
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, there's, you know, a, I don't know,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: an Iraqi or an Afghani router that hasn't been patched
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: in three years. And we think we can either write
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: or find a zero day, which is just an exploit
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: of those routers. Where we can muck with their router
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: in a way where they think they're getting good information
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: and they're not or they're or erecting other things to
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: mitigate risk for the commander. And so that really, you know,
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: exploded at that point. And between that and human intelligence,
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: which is kind of the the actual gathering of intelligence
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 3: from other people, you know, you would call it spy or,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: you know, James Bond. But that's James Bond was a
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: horrible spy. Um, I mean, yeah, you know, your job's
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: to remain anonymous and you're walking into a casino and
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: there's gold fingers calling you by your first and last name.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: It's not a great look. Um, you know, generally you
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 3: don't want to be sleeping with your sources or, uh, um,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: you know, using a real name or whatever. So human intelligence.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: And then my focus for the last 10 years was
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 3: how does signals intelligence computer network operations, um, become a
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: force multiplier for people conducting, um, overt and clandestine operations
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: throughout the theater at that time. My deployments and my
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 3: time was spent in Iraq, Afghanistan, Africa, Northern Africa. And
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: then a lot of people don't know it, but we
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: were in active combat operations in the Southern Philippines as
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: well for a fair amount of time. I want to
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: maybe say seven or 10 years, we were doing combat operations.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: When was this?
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: In the Southern Philippines. My first deployment to the Southern
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: Philippines was 2007.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: Who were we doing operations against?
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: So there were terrorist elements down there that were traveling
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: back and forth from Pakistan and Afghanistan. And there was
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: a terrorist organization down there called the Abu Sayyaf Group.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 3: And there were other ones as well. Jamaah Islamiyah, I think,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: was the name of the other one. And they were
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 3: conducting their own terrorist anti-Christian operations in the southern part
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: of the Philippines. In the southern part of the Philippines,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: I don't... Can I say it? Can I say the word?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: What do you mean?
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: Jamie, can you pull up a map of the Philippines? Yes.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 3: Can you pull it up?
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, say that?
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: Say that term?
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pull it up, Jamie.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: I've been listening to it forever. So there's what's called
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: the autonomous region of Muslim Mindanao, which is the southern
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: part from like a place called Zamboanga down to Hulu
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 3: or Holo Island. And there's a, it's a funny joke
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: because if you zoom into Zamboanga, which is... God, look
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: how many islands there are in the Philippines. I know.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: Go down to the south there. Go down right there.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: Zoom right there on that island. Now move to, sorry,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: now move to the southwest. See that penis? Mm-hmm. At
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 3: the tip of that penis is called Zamboanga. Mm-hmm. All
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: of our combat operations, now if you zoom out a
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 3: little bit more and pan more south and zoom out
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: just a little bit more so the joke hits, all
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: that sperm south of the tip of the Zamboanga city,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: there are terrorist operations in here. Now, if you go
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: to that main island called Sulu, there's Holo Island. That's
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: where I was. on this tiny island out in the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: middle of nowhere, and on that, there's a mountain.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: That's all the Philippines?
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: Well, no, I mean, this is all the Philippines down here, yeah.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 3: So this is called, there's a mountain in there, I
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: think it was called Mount Tumatoc or something like that,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: on the eastern part of the island called Luke. It's
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: called Luke? Yeah, so there's mountains. There's a mountainous region there.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 3: There are a bunch of terrorists up there. They were
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: killing people in the area, conducting bombings. They were getting trained.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: In fact, there was a guy, and I believe, I'm
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: going to get his name wrong, perhaps, But I believe
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: his name was either Insulon Haplon or, oh, it's Jamar Patek.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 3: Jamar Patek. He was actually arrested outside of Osama bin
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 3: Laden's compound the day after he was killed. We were
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: trying to kill him on that island. Or in and
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: around that island is where we were trying to find
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: him and kill him. So they're terrorist facilitators. They did
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: the USS Cole bombing.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: Zoom back out. I want to see the Philippines one
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: more time, like all the islands. When you zoom all
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: the way out. It's so nuts how many islands there are.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: It's so big. Yeah, so up north in Manila is
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: mostly the Christian population. And as you get down south,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: it's the autonomous region of Muslim Minna now. And that
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: is all of where these terrorist operations were happening. And
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: I believe that mostly pulled out of there, there might
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 3: be still some people in Zamboanga. I'm not sure anymore
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: because it's been five years, four years since I retired.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: But yeah, we were doing counterinsurgency operations down there and
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 3: guys died down there and they're combat operations. And, uh,
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: I was out there. Um, I was in a tactical
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: military intelligence battalion and I was attached to the first
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: special forces group. And we were down there a couple
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: of times and, a lot of people don't even know
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I never heard about it.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: So, uh, anyway, um, I'm sorry. No, no sidebar, but
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: I'm so stunned at how many islands are in the Philippines.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: It'll spread out of this. Yeah.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: It's, it's insane. And the, the, the thing about it is,
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: is I go to all of these little outposts and
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: these out islands and, We were always debriefing these guys.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to get these terms wrong, so I'm
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: sure there'll be people in the comments. But I think
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: they were called bongerize or something like that. But they
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: were like these mayors of each one of these little islands.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: And there would be terrorists in and around those areas.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: And we'd try to make friends with these guys so
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: they'd give us some information. And every one of those
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: places was absolutely beautiful. Like you'd go there and be like, man,
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: Hilton could turn this into something in a short order. Right.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 3: You know, when you're out of these places. Beautiful beach,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: beautiful lush jungles. The best swimming water.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: Nicest people, too.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, the Filipino people are some of my favorite people, man. Like,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: you want to talk... The guys that we work with
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 3: out there they're uh scout i think they're called scout
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: sniper scout rangers and they were special i think they
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: were like their special forces we go to the range
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: with these guys and show them stuff and they're the
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: most um ride or die type of guys you'll ever
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: meet in your life like you know so-and-so said this
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: about you last week and i could kill him it's
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 3: like no dude it's cool it's like Don't worry about it.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: Fun fact, they're some of the best pool players on earth, too. Oh, really?
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Some of the greatest pool players of all time came
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: out of the Philippines.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 3: They're just great people. I mean, the people down there
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: were fantastic. And it was awful because those guys would
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: be bombing churches, Christian churches and stuff like that. And
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 3: they're doing counter-intelligence operations out there, doing intelligence operations collection
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: to inform that battle picture. But those guys had direct
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: links with Osama bin Laden and other people. Wow.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: I had no idea.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: Right after we, like I said, I think it was,
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 3: I think if you look it up, I think his
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 3: name is Patek, P-A-T-E-K. And he was arrested outside of
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: Osama bin Laden's compound. And we had been chasing him
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: in the Philippines.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: Because we thought he was still down there. There was
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: another guy that we, I believe we killed him. His
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: name was Al-Bader Parad. But yeah, my job was not,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: I always say this on podcasts because the veteran community
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: is wild right now. They love to cut each other
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 3: down right now. there's something weird going on where like
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: obviously lying. Yeah. Call the people out. I prefer to
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: call people out face to face. Um, but, uh, I
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: always make sure people know I was not a cool guy.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: Like sometimes I got to dress like one, you know,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: for a few years I didn't wear any uniforms and
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 3: I got to grow my beard out and act like
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: a cool guy. But I was really a nerd for
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: cool guys. I've literally got pictures of myself down in the,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: in the holo or in Afghanistan or anywhere else and
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: tape around my glasses and, You know, Pez dispenser and
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: my radio and collection equipment looking like a true blue
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: American nerd. But I was not the guy who kicked
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: the door in. I was always the guy who pointed
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 3: the door out. So I'd be safe in the Humvee
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: in the back, you know, eat an MRE and somebody
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: that looked like another gorilla, you know, like Andy Stumpf
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: or Tim Kennedy or someone like that. I'd be like,
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: is that the house? I'd be like, pretty sure that's
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: the house. You guys might want to be safe, but
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: go ahead. I'll be in the Humvee. I'll be out
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 3: here or I'll be in an airplane above, you know.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: And yeah, it was it was. Being born in North
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: Dakota and, you know, my mother, single mother, after she
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: left that first guy, trailer house in the middle of
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 3: this little town called Cavalier, North Dakota. I had no options.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: I was a horrible student.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: That's crazy that you're so smart, but you were a
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: horrible student.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't. Yeah, I call myself curious before I'd call
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: myself smart. But, you know, my mother, you know, I
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: don't know if you remember, you would remember this, but
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: maybe other people my age. You'd get these scholastic book
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 3: order forms that you'd bring home from school, and you
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: could order books. They'd always be on the back page,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: or it'd always be little cool stuff. You could get
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: a pair of gloves or a hat or something. Anyway,
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: one time there was a coil radio that you could
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: order with an earpiece, and you put this coil radio together.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 3: With an earpiece, no battery. It was just the electromagnetic
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: radiation would activate the coil, and you could listen to
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 3: radio chatter.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: Really? With no battery?
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Just a tiny little radio.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: How did it, what was the power?
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 3: The electromagnetic radiation. And you would just, kind of like
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: a record, like, you know, how you hit a record.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: Electromagnetic radiation would hit the coil and the coil would
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 3: feed up to an amplifier or up to an earpiece.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: And the earpiece, you could hear chatter and you could
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: tune it. Did the earpiece have a battery? I don't
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: think anything had a battery on it. I think it
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: was just a. I could be mistaken, but I don't
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 3: believe it was.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: Powered by electromagnetic radiation. Yeah.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can look it up, Jamie, if you want.
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: Sorry to say that again.
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: Tighten that thing down. That thing's driving me crazy.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: This thing.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: Like here or here?
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: Right here. Look at my finger. Yeah, I've been meaning
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: to do that, like literally when everybody uses this fucking thing.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: It's wobbling around, ready to fall off.
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but if you look up coil radio with small earpiece,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: I could be wrong. I don't remember there being a
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: battery on it.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: Electromagnetic radiation powered it. That's bananas.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So kind of like a, same thing with like,
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: you know, not the same wattage, but a microwave, right. Um,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: sends power through the air. Right.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: But it uses DC, but it uses power.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: Send it. Yeah.
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 3: But I could be wrong, but, um, at any rate,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: that was the first time I got a radio and
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 3: I was hearing things and I'd put it together and
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: I'm listening to things and like, what kind of things, uh,
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 3: HF radio, VHF radio, people talking, that type of stuff. And, um,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: It was just, and then I found out how to
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: get an antenna to make the antenna larger and started
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 3: ordering auxiliary pieces for it. And then what really changed
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: me was my mother let me get a, my mother
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 3: and I would clean houses. She was a waitress, but
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: we also would go around and clean houses. And there
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 3: was a lawyer that we worked for. His name was
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: Phil Culp. And, um, he had a old two 86
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 3: SX IBM, and, uh, it was just sitting in his basement.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: And I told my mom, I was like, Hey, if
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: I clean for like a month, can I have that computer?
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: Like he doesn't use it. He's got a new 486
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: up in his place here. And he instantly said I
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: could have it. And then that started me down the
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: computer networking realm. And like, look, how could I get
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: this 286 to act like a 386? Or how could
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 3: I force it to run Windows? Or how do I
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 3: update the memory? How do I do these things? In
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: this little town, Edinburgh, North Dakota, there was a guy
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 3: who had a computer store in a basement of an
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 3: old general store. And his name was Jeff Munsobraten. And
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: I would go there and ask him questions about computers
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: and just start learning like ins and outs on how
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 3: do I update the RAM? How do I get memory better?
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 3: How do I augment the storage? How can I force
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 3: this thing to run Windows 3.1 so I can have
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 3: a GUI instead of using a command line?
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: GUI mean graphic user interface.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sorry. And so that kind of started me on that.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 3: And that, for me, like I said, I had all
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: kinds of problems with attention deficit disorder and not being
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: able to pay attention. That was the only time I
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 3: would go for it.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't believe in ADHD. I might be wrong.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: I think it's a superpower.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's certainly, I remember I would spend two
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: days working on a problem and not sleeping.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I think it's a superpower. I
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: think it just keeps you from being interested in things
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: you're not interested in. Yeah.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: I have a theory on that too that I can
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: get into after, but that started me down that road.
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 3: But in school, I couldn't pay attention.
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Me neither.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: There was this teacher. I always tell this story. It's
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: a great teacher. She's still around. Her name is Connie Trenbeth,
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 3: and she was my English teacher or literature teacher or
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 3: something like that. She might not even remember the story,
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: but here I am telling it on your podcast. I
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: remember it. She kept me after class once, and she goes,
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: you know, I knew your dad, Bill, and, you know,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: your uncles were all smart, and my great-uncle has an
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 3: engineering wing of a school named after him out in
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: western North Dakota, and she goes, all these guys were thinkers,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: and your dad did all this great stuff and built
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 3: all this stuff, and essentially what she was telling me
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: is you're a waste of life. Like all you do
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 3: is you come in here and you disrupt the class.
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 3: You upset people. No one can talk.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: Sounds like me.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: You're trying to dominate every conversation. But when, you know,
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 3: you had written one paper on something that interested you
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: and I don't remember what it was. And she's like,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: that was a wonderful paper. She's like, if you could
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 3: just do that every time. And I was not hearing it.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 3: Like I remember the conversation because I actually remember, I
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 3: think she said waste of life. I think she actually
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: said that. Like you're wasting, like you're obviously, my CPU
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 3: clocks high. I'm always thinking even when I'm not thinking
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: and even as we're sitting here talking, I'm thinking about
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: other things or stuff I want to do when I
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 3: get back to my computer or stuff I want to
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: do for my business. And so I joined the military
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: and the absurdity of life is this. I joined to
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: be a military policeman, which I absolutely would have hated
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 3: if Um, all of them got turned into infantry people
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: or stand gate guard, which is a needed function in
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: the military, but it doesn't apply to my personality. But
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 3: when I went to the recruiter station out in Minneapolis,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 3: I think it was, I was a bonehead and I
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 3: forgot my driver's license. And they're like, well, and I
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 3: was supposed to leave. And at this time I had
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: dumped my girlfriend, told everyone goodbye. I'd wiped the dust
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: off my boots, like left Cavalier, North Dakota. And, um,
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 3: I w I was like, Hey, uh, I'm not going back.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 2: So.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 3: Whatever we got to do right now. And he's like, well,
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 3: we can, you can go home, get your license. Cause
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 3: the MEPS station was in Minneapolis. Was it Fargo? It
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: doesn't matter. It was five, six, seven hours away. And
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 3: they're like, well, you're not leaving today without a driver's license.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 3: So I looked at my recruiter and I was like,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: I don't know what job you need to get me into,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: but it needs to be a different job. And they're like, well,
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 3: you scored, you know, exceptionally high in your general technical
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 3: part of your ASVAB, which is like understanding machines and
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: objects and stuff. so we could get you into this
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: like Intel job where you'd learn about radars and stuff.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: And that immediately clicked for me. And then he's like, well,
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 3: we got to go brief you in this skiff room.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: There's a, you know, secure compartmented information facility. There's only
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: one guy who's got a clearance and he can brief
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: you on the job. And if you want that job,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: then you can leave tomorrow. I instantly started hearing like
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: the James Bond music, you know, and so they walked
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: me in this back place and you know, nothing super crazy. And,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: briefed me up on the job and I went back
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: out and I said, yeah, this is actually the job
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: for me. So the absurdity of life is me forgetting
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: my driver's license. When I was 16, I was 16
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: when I signed up, um, maybe 17. No, I was
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: turning 17 that December when I signed up for the military. Um,
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 3: I can connect with a string to forgetting my driver's
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: license to being here with you today.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: You can, you can sign up when you're 16. I
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: think I.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 3: Was turning 17. You can sign up when I didn't.
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: Even know you could sign up. when you're 17.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I had signed my delayed entry program thing, and
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 3: I left a little bit before my 18th birthday, so
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 3: I just graduated from high school. But, yeah, you can
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: sign up when you're 16, I believe, as long as
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 3: your parents sign the waiver. My mother signed the waiver.
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: She was happy to get me out of the trailer. So, yeah,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 3: I was 17... almost 18 when I left. You can
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 3: make a radio out of that? Yeah, right there. So
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: that's all the pieces.
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: They call it a crystal radio.
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was going to say crystal controlled.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 1: That's a radio?
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: There it is.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: What?
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 3: That's actually the exact thing. That looks almost, that is
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 3: almost exactly what it looked like.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: Slinky made it?
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: Well, they bought the brand, they just lent the Slinky
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: brand now. What? Bought this toy, but there's a bunch
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: of these all over the internet, yeah.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Wow. Make your own working radio without batteries.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and it uses a, I was going to say
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: crystal controlled radio because it uses a crystal diode on it.
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: Would you say Tesla coil, Jamie?
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a Tesla coil. This guy's explaining it. So
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: this thing has a kind of cool tool. Let me
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: find this thing. A rocket radio, they called, which is
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: like further development, this thing. It attached to a phone.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: Oh.
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: So you plug that onto a phone cable. There's a
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: picture of it somewhere on here, but it explains like
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: you're picking up. There you go.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: No power. No battery or current needed, hence no operating
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: expense and long life. Yeah, this is almost. It's on
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 1: to a phone. What year was this?
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 2: Man, this is old. Yeah. It also shows here, this
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: is like you're picking up power from a radio tower.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: Wow. And they're powerful, the signal. This is more like
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: what they're paying for at the FCC. The more powerful
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: your radio tower, the longer and more people you can reach.
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: Crazy. That has no batteries.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 2: And that's also why some radio signals come in very
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 2: well on your radio and some don't. They sound like
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: dog shit.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You've got weak power.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And then the frequency modulation, like amplitude modulation isn't
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: as efficient as frequency modulation when it comes to for
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: the voc order to produce sound. Amplitude modulation travels farther,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: but it doesn't have the amount of information. It's not modulated.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 3: The carrier wave can't be modulated with as much information
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: as you need. Whereas frequency modulation is much quicker, megahertz,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 3: and you can amplitude and add more sound or more information,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: which is why it sounds better. So FM sounds better,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 3: but it doesn't travel as far. AM sounds worse. When
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 3: I was training people in the military on this, I
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: always used the analogy of if a party is happening
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 3: next door, you can hear the bass music, but you
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: can't hear the treble. You can hear the bass music
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 3: because that frequency travels farther because it's lower in their
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: frequency band. But you can hear the treble better. because,
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 3: or you can't hear the treble, I'm sorry, because it's
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 3: higher frequency and there's more modulation. And so it disperses
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: quicker and you can't hear it as well. And it's
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: the same thing with like VLF comms coming off of
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 3: like a submarine can travel underwater for a very long ways,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 3: but you can't put as much information in them as
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 3: you could if you were doing, you know, VHF or
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: UHF comms where there's lots of modulation. So it's the dispersal. And,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 3: you know, a lot of my, you know, mid part
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: of my career was explaining this stuff to, you know,
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: military guys who were trying to understand like, here's how
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: a cell phone works and this is how frequency works
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: and this is how we send information and just kind
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 3: of demystifying, you know, how, you know, a GSM network works.
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I wanted to ask you
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: about that is when new technology is emerging, how, how
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: do you, how do you stay ahead of the ability
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 1: to extract information from this technology, hack into networks before
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 1: people understand the capability.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: You really can't.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: You really can't.
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: And that's the beauty of the free market is that
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: the innovation to perform the function that you want someone
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 3: to pay for will always move faster than your ability
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: to exploit the technology.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: Then how do you explain things like Pegasus?
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean, something like Pegasus, Well, first.
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: Off— Explain Pegasus to people that don't know.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: It was a persistent implant on cell phones for people.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: Initially, it was— you had to click it. It was a
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 1: clickable exploit.
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 3: Initially, it was a click, and then it became a
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: non-click exploit. So in other words, you had to interact
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: with something on the phone in order to initialize and
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 3: install the implant. But the reason why it was so
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: good is because it wasn't stored in the— it wasn't
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: stored in the usual areas that you would want a
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: persistent implant or where you would have a persistent implant.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 3: For instance, uh, you know, you might want to put
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: it in the application layer of an app or something
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 3: like that, where there's a binary that can run and
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 3: execute commands or functions. Um, and so they, I won't
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 3: get into the very specifics of where and how they
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: did this, because I'm not sure if I got this
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 3: information from the government or not, so I won't say it,
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 3: but they stored it in a place where it wasn't normal.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 3: And you can read papers on your own and look
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: at the forensics of it and how the actual implant
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 3: was executed. But it essentially allowed people to own your
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 3: phone and was the kind of implant I only dreamed
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: of when I was helping develop my own implants in
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 3: the military. Mostly what we would rely on is zero-day
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 3: architecture and looking for something in a phone that either
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: they hadn't patched or that the phone that you were
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: looking at hadn't been patched. So phones, as they have
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: their own red teams, are going through the phone for
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: their own, because they want to sell a product that
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: people will use and people won't use stuff that can
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 3: get hacked. So they'll do their own red teaming and
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: they'll discover like, oh, you know, we, we, on this
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 3: router we developed, we left this port open and it
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: shouldn't have been open. So now we're going to write
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 3: a patch that will close that port so that this
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: port is no longer accessible by a guy like me.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: So I can't go in there and and do something
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: to this particular type of router. Another great thing, I'll
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: say something good about the administration. They're doing some stuff
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 3: right now to make sure that we're getting rid of
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 3: Chinese technology and Chinese routers. And there's a widespread network of,
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: the PLA has a, and I can't remember the name
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 3: of the botnet, but they essentially implanted a bunch of
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: old unpatched routers to get access to government and business
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 3: proximal people And it was widespread and huge. And you know,
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 3: they looked like to me, I haven't read this anywhere,
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 3: but if I were looking at this implant and how
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: it was done, they were trying to really cause some trouble. Um,
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: it was being placed at critical places. Think power, think energy,
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: think banking, like they really wanted to cause some ruckus.
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: And I have not been part of this administration, so
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying anything classified for those of you who
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 3: are listening. And so but there was a decision to say, hey,
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 3: we need to make sure that these things get patched
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: and also that we're not bringing in architecture from the
• 1:25:47
  Speaker 3: overseas because they don't play by the same rules that
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: we at least say we play by.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 1: That's why they banned Huawei devices.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. And ZTE. Yeah.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: Huawei had a phone that I was really interested in
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: back in the day. They had a Porsche design, had
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: partnered with Huawei and made this insane Android phone with
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: like the best camera, the best battery. It was like
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 1: really high level. And I was like, going to buy it.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden they banned all the
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: Huawei phones. And I was like, what's going on? And then,
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: you know, I had heard some people say, oh, they're
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 1: just trying to stop competition. It's like American companies are
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 1: trying to stop it. And then I went into it
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: deeper and I said, no, it seems like there's third-party
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: input on some of the routers and some of their
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: network devices that they had engineered in order to be
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: able to access them by third party. And this– Because
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: of whatever, lack of understanding, lack of knowledge of how
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: these things are constructed, the people that purchased them weren't
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: aware of them. And these things had gotten into place.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: And they had gotten into place in universities. They got
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: into place in military establishments. They were using them in
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: cell phone towers that people had inadvertently bought from China.
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: I can tell you firsthand from having done some other
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 3: forensic exploitation on this stuff. Another large part of my
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 3: career I didn't talk about was just on mobile forensics
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: and media forensics, which is essentially you think of like
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 3: CSI Miami or CSI whatever the city was. There's a crime.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 3: Someone was killed. You have forensics that are doing forensics
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 3: on like blood and fingerprints and blood splatter and all
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 3: that stuff. There's a whole another part of that same
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: forensics branch that focuses on media forensics. What was deleted
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: off this phone at one point? What remains on this phone?
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 3: What was it being used for? I would do this
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: in the military so that when we did do an
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 3: operation and I was part of some of the largest
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 3: ones ever done out in Afghanistan, there would be treasure
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 3: troves of phones and all of these computers and stuff
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: like that. And it was my job. And I had
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 3: a great team that worked for me in 20, my
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: deployment in 2015. We would go in afterwards, gather up
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: all of this stuff. And, you know, the task force
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: commander would literally be standing by. And we'd say, you know,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 3: here's the intelligence that we've derived. Here's the multi-point analysis here.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 3: You know, it was on this hard drive. It was here,
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: it was here. You know, there's a bad guy place
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 3: out here. And those guys would be rolling like within
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: moments after the last operation, like some operations we do
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: where we'd be rolling one after another target because we
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 3: were getting really good at media forensics and the intelligence
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 3: that was there. And then getting into active media forensics,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: which is a different discipline, but essentially I'll get it.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: I can get into that later if you want to, but, um,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 3: launching and doing these follow-on operations off, you know, dumping
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: the binary from a phone and examining it at the
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 3: ones and zeros level to say everything that was going
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: on with this thing, or if it was a really high,
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 3: like the organization that I worked for at that time, uh,
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: did the analysis of the Osama bin Laden media. And,
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 3: you know, at the, on that media, we're doing far
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 3: more than we would for another piece of media. And
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 3: that we're, you know, x-raying it and we're looking at
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 3: maybe what the disc looked like before or what was
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 3: destroyed or reconstructing things, spending millions of dollars on that
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: intelligence analysis because we wanted to fully understand everything that
• 1:29:06
  Speaker 3: this guy was involved in and what he was doing
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: and where he was and who he was talking to.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: And so that was another part of my career that
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 3: I did for about five years or so.
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: What was going on with the Huawei phones? Like, what
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: were they doing with them?
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: I mean....
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 3: Some of them were coming out implanted. In other words,
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: there was access built in for a foreign actor. And
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: then in other terms, other places with routers, with the
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 3: ZTE stuff, there were just things that you would patch
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 3: or that you would fix as a company who was
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 3: trying to protect the consumer and create a product that
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: people would use, and they weren't doing it. So they
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: were creating persistent backdoors either by actively placing code on
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 3: there that would allow root access Or they were leaving
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 3: things open, especially in Africa, like the work that, you know,
• 1:29:51
  Speaker 3: when I was working in Africa, the Chinese were just
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 3: owning Africa. They were just giving them communications infrastructure. And
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 3: they were doing that because they wanted their resources and
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 3: they wanted to know what these people were saying and
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 3: what they were doing. And so I'm a free market,
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 3: like I'm as free market as a guy can get.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 3: I want the best people building the best products and
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 3: I want everyone to be able to compete. But in
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: that case, I would never own a Huawei or a
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: ZTE or anything else.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: On a consumer level, what were they doing with those phones?
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: If they had imported them to the United States, if
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 1: they didn't have that ban, what would have been the issue?
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: Getting access to any number of people. The Chinese really
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: want access to everybody. But you could start at the
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: topical level of just saying getting Joe Rogan to use
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 3: a ZTE would be That would be my wet dream
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 3: as a guy who used to do this work back
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: in the day because you're talking to the president or
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 3: you're talking to this guy or that guy. And I
• 1:30:47
  Speaker 3: can build out a network of understanding who you're in
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 3: contact with, who you're talking to, what's being talked about,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 3: but then also finding out this person's phone number and
• 1:30:56
  Speaker 3: now doing a deep dive on there. So it's really
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 3: about getting all of that data and constructing an analyst notebook,
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: essentially outline of who's talking to who, who do we
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 3: need to implant. But it's for business as well. They
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 3: would want this in the hands of somebody who's in
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 3: charge of a business because they want their IP. They
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 3: would want this in soldiers' hands so they would know
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: deployment dates or who's going where and who's doing what.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 3: They want this in routers because routers are usually the
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 3: most unpatched piece of technology. These days, they're more automated patching.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: But back in the day, you had to manually update
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 3: a router. If you didn't, well, then you had potential
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 3: exploits that were sitting on that router where I could
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 3: gain access to the router in your home, or I
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: could gain access to a BGP router, which is like
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 3: a border gateway, which is moving all of the internet data,
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 3: or I could get access to a microwave terminal. You know,
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: if you look at a cell phone, they've got the
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 3: microwave terminals on there that are sending information in between them.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 3: If those are Chinese parts that are either being used
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 3: for the processing, the CPU, or the physical infrastructure of that,
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 3: the products that they were putting out would give me
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 3: direct access to the information that's being passed on those terminals.
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 3: So you're getting system-level, root-level access through machinery, through communication devices,
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 3: and through things like routers where you can know everything
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 3: you want to know about your enemy. Wow.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: And so as far as today's technology, I see you
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: use an Android phone. Is there a phone that is
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: more secure or a platform that is more secure?
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 3: It all depends. I always take this from Thomas Sowell.
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 3: There are no answers. There are only trade-offs. So there's
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 3: like the way to answer that question would be is
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 3: like who are you? What are you trying to do
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: with your life? What are you talking about on your phone?
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 3: What are you doing on your phone? Most of these phones,
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 3: if you're just an average everyday citizen who's just going
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 3: about your job, the phones today are pretty secure, especially
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 3: versus a few years ago. If you're a reporter, now
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 3: the nexus is do you trust the government and do
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 3: you trust Apple? If you trust the government, you trust Apple,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 3: then Apple is probably your best bet. For using, you know,
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 3: there's lockdown mode on an Apple phone or they used
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 3: to call it back in the day. I think it
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: was called reporter mode, but there was way to ways
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 3: to encrypt the devices and to encrypt the chatter and
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 3: the tunnel coming out of the phone, the RF coming out.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: Of the phone. And what is lockdown mode?
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 3: I don't know if that's exactly what it was called
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: or not, because I've never really used Apple just for
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 3: my own personal reasons.
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 1: What personal reasons?
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: I don't trust Apple.
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: How so?
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: They are more interested in monetizing people's data than they
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 3: are providing them capability. So every time you take a photo,
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: every time you upload a document, every time you talk
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: to it, every time it asks you about your, you know,
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 3: you'll get these questions where it says, if your password's lost,
• 1:33:51
  Speaker 3: you can back up your password in these ways. Tell
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 3: us where you were born. Tell us your mom's maiden's name.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 3: Tell us your mom's this, your mom's that.
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 1: Lockdown mode is an extreme optional protection. It can only
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: be used if you believe you may be personally targeted
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: by a highly sophisticated cyber attack. Most people are never
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 1: targeted by attacks of this nature. When iPhone is in
• 1:34:07
  Speaker 1: lockdown mode, it will not function as it typically does. Apps, websites,
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: and features will be strictly limited for security, and some
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: experiences will be completely unavailable.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so when I was advising guys back in the
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 3: day on going out and doing like a high-risk source meet,
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 3: so they're going to go meet, you know, a spy
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 3: for another country and you're a military guy and you're
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 3: debriefing someone or doing something, I would always tell them
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 3: to use lockdown mode. I knew that it did those things.
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 3: I didn't know if that was the term or if
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 3: I thought that out.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: So can you still send iMessages?
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 3: You can still text and call.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 1: Text and call, that's it.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's other things that you can't do.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: Well, like Meta just recently announced they're no longer encrypting
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: your DMs.
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 3: Why would they do that?
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 1: Well, they said that it's for protection or whatever to
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 1: make sure that people aren't doing bad things. I don't
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: know what. See what their explanation for it was.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm worried about this reporter.
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Meta recently announced that they're no longer encrypting
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: your DMs on Instagram. And a lot of people are
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: up in arms and they're stopping using any DMs on
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 1: Instagram and any of that stuff. And the idea is
• 1:35:16
  Speaker 1: that other people can read your stuff now. Now, whether
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: it's Meta can read your stuff or who.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 3: That's what I mean. When I said, why don't you
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 3: trust Apple? It's the same reason I don't trust Meta.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: They're not interested.
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: The dangers behind Meta killing end-to-end encryption for Instagram DMs.
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: Meta blamed users for not opting into the privacy-protecting feature.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: Experts fear the move could be the first major domino
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: to fall for end-to-end encryption tech worldwide.
• 1:35:40
  Speaker 3: That's a horrible narrative.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It seems squirrely.
• 1:35:44
  Speaker 2: So....
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: Oh, you've read your last free article.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 3: Oh, my God.
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: Give me money, motherfucker.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 3: But what Apple and Meta want to do is like
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 3: they're trying to build these new neural networks. They're trying to,
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 3: you know, humans and we can get into this too
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 3: later if you want. Humans are the only thing, in
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 3: my opinion, and I'm happy to have you disagree with
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 3: me and I love to have this conversation. In my opinion,
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 3: we're the only ones that are.
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: After May 8, 2026. Announce plans discontinue support for end-to-end
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: encryption for chats on Instagram. If you have chats that
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 1: are impacted by this change, you will see instructions on
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 1: how you can download any media or messages you may
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: want to keep. Social media giant said in a help document,
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: if you're on an older version of Instagram, you may
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: also need to update the app before you can download
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: your affected chats. When reach for comment, this is what
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: Meta had to say, very few people are opting for
• 1:36:35
  Speaker 1: end-to-end encrypted messages and DMs, so we're removing this option
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: from Instagram in the coming months. Anyone who wants to
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: keep messaging with end-to-end encryption can easily do that on WhatsApp.
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: But WhatsApp is a little squirrely, right?
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, they're all squirrely. And that's the problem.
• 1:36:51
  Speaker 3: And so you asked me why I don't trust them.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: It's because they want to use... So humans, in my opinion,
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: and some animals, are the only things that have the
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 3: ability to project consciousness. And projecting consciousness is how you
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 3: train a neural network. And it's how you train... All
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: of these large networks. A lot of my time also
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 3: in the military was spent in art. I was doing
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: artificial intelligence in 2012, 2011. Before it was even a
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 3: catch term, we were using artificial intelligence to map dynamic
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 3: networks and to do other things. More pragmatic uses of
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 3: it than how it's being used today with large language
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 3: models or convolutional neural networks. But they need consciousness to
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 3: train their models. So when Google offers you meta or
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: Instagram or whoever else offers you photo storage, it's because
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 3: they want your face to train neural networks. If they're
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: going to pay for the compute, if they're going to
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 3: pay for the storage for these things, they're doing it
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 3: because they're going to use the data. If you're getting
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 3: a free app, in essence, any free app, if the
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: product's free, then you're the product. So when Google is
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 3: allowing you to use a Google Drive and get a
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 3: gig of storage, they're going to use those photos to
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: train neural networks to do better facial recognition.
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: What if you're paying for Google Drive?
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 3: I don't know about their terms of service now. That
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 3: is one of the best things that I use with
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 3: large language models is, Any product I download, I have
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 3: the neural network examine the terms of service. And then
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 3: you can pretty much understand, like, here's my focus. Here's
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 3: the 40-page terms of services document. When you click that
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 3: link that you got, what are they able to do
• 1:38:22
  Speaker 3: with my data? So that's how I sign up for apps.
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 3: And that's one of the great uses of a large
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: language model, in my opinion, is to quickly understand how
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 3: these things are being used. And that's why I say
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 3: with Apple, with Meta, with all of these large information,
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 3: you are more the product than the products the product.
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 3: And that is because they're trying to build the most powerful,
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 3: capable artificial intelligences, which I think is a misnomer. And again,
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 3: we can get into it later. But they're trying to
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 3: build these hyper-competent artificial intelligences And you need two things
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 3: for that, really, is training data and you need compute.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: And that's why you start seeing them coming out with
• 1:38:56
  Speaker 3: like Meta's building its own nuclear engineering facility or nuclear
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 3: facility or something like that. And they need more training data.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 3: So if I want to build a replica of Joe
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 3: Rogan that I can make hyper-realistic AI videos for, I
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 3: need every picture of your face from every angle. I
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 3: need every wince, every squint, everything you've ever done so
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 3: I can introduce more training data to better train that
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: neural network in order to generate more hyper-realistic versions of yourself.
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 3: And so when a company's offering you something for free,
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 3: and it's fine, like if people are fine with that idea,
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 3: then by all means, download all the free apps that
• 1:39:33
  Speaker 3: you want. But if you're downloading a free app, it's
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 3: because you are the product. They either want to see
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 3: how you type, they want to see what you're saying,
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 3: they want to see how you're thinking about things, they
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 3: want to understand your political biases, they want to look
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 3: at your photos. And this isn't because they're a deep-seated
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 3: nation-state actor. They can become that. But it's because they're
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 3: trying to build the best products because the big money
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 3: is in AI. That's where the biggest money is. So
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 3: anytime you're doing any of these things, it's just been
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 3: obvious to me from the– not from the onset but
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 3: pretty close to the onset that.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a good example, right? Pokemon Go players
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: built a 30 billion photo map. That's how training robots
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 1: deliver your pizza.
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 3: There you go. So, you know, they view and they
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 3: can say they don't. And maybe if someone from there
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 3: catches this podcast, which they well could, they might put
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 3: out a statement saying that's not what they're doing. But
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 3: I'm telling you as a person who has done media forensics,
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 3: who has done computer network operations, and who has trained
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 3: artificial intelligence models, that is precisely what they are doing.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 1: And what is the difference between using Apple and using Android?
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 3: Well, Android will do the same things and Google will
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 3: do the same things. It's just that I can root
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 3: my phone or I can install a custom operating system
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 3: like Graphene or something like that, which I'm not doing
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 3: right now. I had to make a sacrifice when I
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 3: started my company, Spartan Forge. And the sacrifice was I
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 3: had to be the face of this product. And so
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 3: I never had a social media until I started the company.
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 3: And I didn't upload things to the cloud until I
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 3: started this company. And it became just like, I have
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 3: to sell a product. I have to, you know, and
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 3: I'm actually selling a product, not people's data or people's photos.
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 3: I have to sell this product. I have to let people,
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 3: people often don't know who is the company or who
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 3: is the organizing principle and what do they care about
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 3: in the company. And I just made that trade and said,
• 1:41:25
  Speaker 3: I'm going to have to become a public person and
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 3: start putting things out there. And, uh, so, you know,
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 3: when I started a company, we started our first Instagram
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 3: and I started my, my marketing team started my first
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 3: Instagram and And I had to start uploading things and
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 3: talking about how I felt about things because I wanted
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 3: people to know that this company was not going to
• 1:41:44
  Speaker 3: be like the other companies that are out there. We
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 3: don't sell their data. We don't sell emails. I can
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 3: make a half million dollars off my email list tomorrow.
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: And I've been offered that money. We've got millions of
• 1:41:53
  Speaker 3: emails from people who have signed up for our apps.
• 1:41:55
  Speaker 3: Other companies who are starting companies, they want to go
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 3: out and reach marketing people. So if you're starting another
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 3: hunting app, maybe for cameras or for a call or
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 3: a tricky call or an out call or something. And
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 3: you found Spartan Forge and you said, man, they've got
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 3: 2 million emails. I could pay them a half million
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 3: dollars for that $ 2 million and start some top of mark,
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 3: top of line marketing, top of funnel marketing and go
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 3: blast them. So they'd pay me a lot of money
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 3: for those emails. I will never do that. I'll never
• 1:42:25
  Speaker 3: sell my company's emails, the people's emails. I'll never do
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: any of those things because the product is the product
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: for my company. It's not the people.
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 1: So the reason why you use Android over Apple is
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: the ability to root it and install things like Graphene?
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, custom OSs.
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 1: But yet you don't use it.
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 3: Not now, but what I still can use and what
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 3: I still do use is Android also publishes their framework
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 3: in an open source fashion where you can look at
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 3: the– it's called AOSP, Android Open Source Project– So the
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 3: basis of Android, think of it as the nuts and bolts.
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 3: I'll try not to talk in too technical terms here.
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 3: But the basic framework, think about it like a car.
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 3: The frame and the engine makeup is published so you
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 3: can look at how things work on the inside. Apple
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 3: goes the opposite way and they don't publish any of that.
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 3: You can't see any of that stuff. I'm for the
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 3: free and open version because... At least if I'm worried
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 3: about my phone having a problem, I can actually dump
• 1:43:24
  Speaker 3: binary or I can create an EO1 file and exhume.
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 3: I can look at the binary and say, is my
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 3: phone acting like it should or doing what it should?
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 3: Or is there some kind of persistent implant? I wouldn't
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 3: be able to do that. I would have to trust
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 3: Apple and Apple's ecosystem and whoever they're McAfee or whatever
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 3: they're using. I would have to trust them, which I don't.
• 1:43:43
  Speaker 3: So I like the Android platform.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: Is that option available for the average consumer that's not
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: that learned in computers?
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 3: Well, the great part about large language models now is
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 3: if you wanted to dump your own phone today, you
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 3: could follow along with a large language model and do it,
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 3: your own Android.
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 1: And how would you do that?
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 3: Well, you would have to buy some expensive– there is
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 3: something– you'd either have to pay a firm to do
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 3: it or you could download things like Celebrite. You could
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 3: get a Celebrite. or there's other things called forensic toolkit,
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 3: other things like that, that allow you to examine your
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 3: phone at a deeper level.
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 1: And is this an app, forensic?
• 1:44:23
  Speaker 3: They're products.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 1: Products.
• 1:44:24
  Speaker 3: They're products.
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 1: So it's a physical product that you dump your phone into?
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's software. And there's connecting and all that
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 3: type of stuff. Tools I used throughout my military career,
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 3: Celebrite was one of them, but they're Israeli owned. I've
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: got nothing against Israel. I've just got everything against foreign actors.
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 3: Just if they're not an American company, that automatically kicks
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 3: them down a level for me. So anyway, there's all
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 3: kinds of– Android just makes it much easier to examine
• 1:44:52
  Speaker 3: your phone or to understand if you've got something going
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 3: on that's funky than it is on Apple.
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: So for the average person, like for me, like if
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: I– You're not the average person. Well, let's pretend I am.
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: If I got an Android phone and I wanted to
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: examine my phone, what would be the process?
• 1:45:09
  Speaker 3: You would download some of the software that I talked about.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 3: You would jack your phone into it. You would open
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: your phone, and then it would start carving the binary
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 3: of everything in your phone. You could create a one-to-one
• 1:45:22
  Speaker 3: emulation of your phone if you wanted to, and then
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 3: you would be able to get under the hood and
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 3: examine the apps. You would be able to examine the binary.
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 3: What's the executable code? You'd be able to look at
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 3: all of those things and then determine, because Android open
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 3: source project is published, you could do a one-for-one and say, Well,
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 3: you know, at the kernel level, there's this weird code
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 3: that's not in the Android build. So what is this code?
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 3: And then with a neural network, you could probably, I've
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 3: never done it, but I'm sure you could figure out
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 3: what the intent is of that code, even for a layperson.
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: So I could take that information, I could put it
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 1: into perplexity, and perplexity would lay out what's going on
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 1: with it?
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 3: Ostensibly, it would be able to, yes, unless it was
• 1:46:03
  Speaker 3: some type of weird code. I haven't used Perplexity, so
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 3: I don't know if they have something like ChatGPT's Codex.
• 1:46:10
  Speaker 2: I sort of just tried just to be like, can
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 2: you help me examine what my Android phone is doing,
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: looking for any malicious actors?
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 1: Yes, I can walk you through structured non-destructive check for
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 1: malware or other shady activity on your Android phone. A, first,
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 1: what are you noticing? For tools, commands, quickly check for
• 1:46:25
  Speaker 1: common warning signs, sudden big battery drain, you're not using
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 1: the phone, unusual data usage. particularly in the background, apps
• 1:46:32
  Speaker 1: you don't remember installing, or icons briefly appearing and then disappearing.
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 1: Lots of pop-ups, redirects in browser, or new default search launcher,
• 1:46:41
  Speaker 1: strange calls, SMS messages you didn't send yourself. If any
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: of those ring a bell, we'll focus on them in
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 1: later steps. So this is just something that you could
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 1: do with an Android phone that you just can't do
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 1: with Apple.
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Apple's not open.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: What are the reasons you don't trust Apple?
• 1:46:55
  Speaker 3: Well, could I ask, can I do one thing before we,
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 3: remember that question because I don't want to forget it.
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 3: Could I give you a prompt?
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 3: Because I want to answer your first question that we've
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 3: already gone past. Can you bring perplexity.
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: Back up, please?
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: Do you want to go in addition to that or
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 2: start a new one?
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 3: No, this is fine. Just say, my friend helped me
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 3: carve an EO1 file, Echo Oscar EO1 file. And he
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 3: says that there is code in there That doesn't comport
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 3: with the rest of the Android system. Yeah, P-O-R-T. The
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 3: rest of the system. Could I dump that code here
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 3: and could you tell me what it means? I'm sure
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 3: the answer is yes, but I just didn't want to
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 3: answer it because I've never done it.
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: Could you tell me? Could you tell me, Jeremy?
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 3: Could you tell me what it means?
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: Get the U out. Get the you. Tell me you.
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 3: Could I have some of your coffee, please?
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. It's for you. Okay, let's see what it says. Yes,
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: you can paste suspicious code here, and I can help
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 1: explain what it appears to do line by line and
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: whether anything looks malicious before you paste a few important notes. Remove.
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 1: or redact anything that looks like private data using like
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 1: that's keys tokens IPs email addresses phone perplexity is our sponsor.
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 3: I love that because you'd never get that from chat GPT.
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 3: You'd want all that information.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 1: Is the shit and So you're not sharing personal or
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: case-sensitive information.
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 3: Wonderful perplexity.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: If it's very long, send in chunks and tell me
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 1: chunk 1-3, chunk 2-3, et cetera, so we can help
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 1: keep track. I can do static analysis here, read and
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: reason about the code, but I cannot actually execute it
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: in a sandbox. So this is more like a careful
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: forensic read-through than a full dynamic malware analysis. Go ahead
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: and paste the code snippet your friend flagged is not
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 1: fitting with the rest of the system. And tell me
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: in a sentence or two where in the EO1 it
• 1:49:08
  Speaker 1: came from. Example, app folder, system partition, random file path.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I thought that would be the answer.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 3: I've just never done it. And so you can do
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 3: a forensic examination of an Apple, by the way. I'm
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 3: sorry if I misspoke there. But you can't do it
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 3: to the level that you can with Because the Android
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 3: open source project publishes all of the code, I can
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 3: get an understanding of the very inner working. So if
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 3: something's being done, for instance, at the kernel, or you
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 3: could think about it as the lowest level of the phone,
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 3: something that wouldn't normally get caught in a forensic examination,
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't be able to do that with Apple. And
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 3: the nation state actors are doing things at very low
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 3: levels in the code framework for that exact reason, because
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 3: most people who aren't very deep into forensics would miss that.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 3: It would be like the fingerprint under the couch cushion
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 3: or something like that.
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: And what is the difference between what someone can do
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 1: with an Android phone with the standard Android operating system
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: versus graphene?
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 3: So that gets into, you know, if you wanted to
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 3: war drive or sample Wi-Fi networks in an area or
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 3: if you wanted to run a barrage attack on a
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 3: Wi-Fi end point, you could work that in there to
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 3: do things with the phone that you couldn't otherwise do
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 3: with a standard app, with a standard Android operating kit.
• 1:50:31
  Speaker 1: But as far as on a consumer level, like what
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 1: protections do you have by running Graphene that you don't
• 1:50:37
  Speaker 1: have by running Android?
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 3: You're much more in control of the ecosystem. You have
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 3: a firmer understanding. And again, you could use a large
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 3: language model to do this, to understand exactly what's being
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 3: run on the phone. You control the background services that
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 3: can be run on the phone. So if you're getting
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 3: hot mic'd or if your camera's taking pictures of you
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 3: when you're not looking or it's listening to you for
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 3: advertising content, stuff like that, you would be in control
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 3: of all of that in a way that you're not
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 3: in control of on a native Android app.
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: In control, like how so? Would it alert you that
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: this is happening?
• 1:51:07
  Speaker 3: Or just the functionality wouldn't be there for it to
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 3: take place.
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: Right, because the functionality is only designed for the standard
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 1: Android operating system.
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 3: And I haven't installed Graphene in a while. So all
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 3: of this updates, and I could be saying things that
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 3: are incorrect. I stopped doing this about three years ago.
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: I know that there was, I forget what country it was,
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: but they were focusing on people who use Google Pixel phones,
• 1:51:31
  Speaker 1: for example. Yeah, because that's one of the phones that
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 1: are more commonly rooted.
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's easy to do. And you could do it
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 3: with a large language model. You could sit there and
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 3: be walked through on how to do it, which is
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 3: a great.
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: Part of that. Is it complicated for a person like
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: me that's not that astute?
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 3: No, it's not something I would do with a phone
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 3: that you care about the first few times because you're
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 3: going to jack things up. You have to get the
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 3: bootloader and essentially the starting mechanisms of the phone that
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 3: launches all of the other things. You have to get
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 3: down to a level and unlock that so that you can.
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: Is that available for all Android phones?
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 3: No, not all Android phones. Lots of them lock it down,
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: so you can't do that.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 1: Is that available for Samsung phones?
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 3: No, not this one. So the question has to become
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 3: can you unlock the bootloader? And that is the starting,
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 3: think of it as the starting engine of the rest
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 3: of the phones.
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: Why is it only available on Google Pixel phones?
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure why they do it that way. I
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 3: haven't looked into that. It's just Pixels and the older
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 3: Samsung's made it available. Older Galaxy S7s, S10s, you could
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 3: do more than you can with like, and I've got
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 3: the Galaxy Fold here and you can do almost none
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 3: of that on here.
• 1:52:37
  Speaker 1: That is fucking sweet though.
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love this phone. But like I said, I
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 3: went away from doing all that, A, because it was work. B,
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 3: because I'm not working in national security anymore, and I
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 3: haven't written an exploit in years. I don't do this
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 3: type of work anymore, and I need to sell a product.
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 3: And just working with other employees that run my Instagram
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 3: or assistant going through my email and all those other
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 3: types of things, it just wasn't pragmatic anymore for me
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 3: to keep doing that, and I had to give up
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 3: that part of myself.
• 1:53:06
  Speaker 1: Does Spartan Forge, your app, run on graphene?
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it could. Yeah, it would. You have to
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 3: sideload the app. But again, a large language model could
• 1:53:14
  Speaker 3: walk you through doing that. So we haven't gotten to
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 3: that level of.
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: Does it make sense here that this says it's easier
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 2: because Google makes it easier?
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah. He was just asking me why they make it easier.
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 3: I don't know that answer.
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 1: So the process is officially supported in the Android settings
• 1:53:30
  Speaker 1: under developer options, allowing users to toggle OEM locking, simple
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: fast boot method. Pixels use standard fast boot commands that work...
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: consistently across all models to unlock the bootloader accessibility. Yeah,
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: that's what I was talking about.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 3: So, yeah, I don't know why they do it. It
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 3: might be people can... Well, the Android open source project exists.
• 1:53:52
  Speaker 3: So it would stand to reason that you would want
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 3: a way for someone... Because what you want is people
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 3: interacting with that code and red teaming it and making
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 3: the code better and then offering bug bounties so that
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 3: you can tell Android, like, hey, you've got a critical
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 3: flaw in your system architecture here. And then they'll pay
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 3: you 20 grand for that. I've got friends who do that.
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 1: You and I talked about Eric Prince's phone. Yes. So
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: the narrative is that that is an unhackable phone.
• 1:54:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just by virtue. And look, Eric's a wonderful guy.
• 1:54:26
  Speaker 3: And the principles that he used for the first instantiation
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 3: of that phone are the correct principles, which is we
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 3: need to get it If you're security-focused at all, you
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 3: should get away from these big, large conglomerates because none
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 3: of your data is private. That's a correct principle. An
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 3: incorrect principle, and I'm going to get shit about this,
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 3: but I told you in the beginning I care about
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 3: the truth, and I do care about the truth, is
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 3: that when you're using a PKI subsystem that relies on Microsoft,
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 3: then you're not in control of the PKI certificate signing,
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 3: and Microsoft could cause a bunch of problems, and they
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 3: were using that. Um, so the other thing being, if
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 3: you're building on the Android open source project, that means
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 3: the code that you're using as the engine, let's just
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 3: call it that of your phone is examinable by the public.
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 3: So you're relying on Android to publish these, you know,
• 1:55:21
  Speaker 3: updates to the phone and you're relying on those things
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 3: to be as good as possible. Now you might harden
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 3: it some more, but as long as the code is
• 1:55:28
  Speaker 3: out there, it can always be mucked with. As long
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 3: as people have to interact with the device and type,
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 3: and you have to see what you're typing, a phone's
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 3: going to be, it's going to have Swiss cheese. So
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 3: when people say something is unhackable, as you said, that's
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 3: just not true.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it didn't make sense to me, which is why
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: you and I talked about it.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about it quite a bit. Like I said,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 3: great guy, done lots of great things for the country.
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 3: And it's just, if they had just said something along
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 3: the lines of it's hackable as any phone is hackable,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 3: because by virtue of you having to interact with it,
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 3: it's hackable. Just like if I came up with an
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 3: app that had a, you know, look at the TikTok
• 1:56:09
  Speaker 3: terms of service on the first TikTok.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's bonkers.
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 3: With those terms of services, I will own your phone.
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 3: And I'm not saying you can install TikTok on his phone.
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 3: But what I'm saying is by virtue that you have
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 3: to interact with the phone and see what you're doing
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 3: and type passwords. And you've got those kinds of terms
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 3: of service. I could easily put a key logger in that.
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 3: And now I know your signal password or your signal pin. Or,
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 3: you know, you're going to China, so I stop you
• 1:56:33
  Speaker 3: in secondary. And while you're in secondary, I've got a
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 3: CCTV on you, and you unlock your phone. Now I
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 3: know how to unlock your phone. Now I'm going to
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 3: lock you up in secondary at customs in China or
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 3: in Canada, and I'm going to separate you from your phone.
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 3: And I've seen you unlock it. Well, now I'm going
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 3: to get in there with NCASE, or I'm going to
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 3: get in there with FTK, or I'm going to get
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 3: in there with Celebrite, and I'm going to dump your phone.
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 3: And just by virtue of it being built on the
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 3: Android open source project, that's a great thing. It's a
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 3: good thing. Just don't call it totally unhackable. Because a
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 3: guy like me, I don't need but a week or
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 3: two to tell you on this current build, like, here's
• 1:57:13
  Speaker 3: the hole in this Swiss cheese. Now, is it far
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 3: better than having a Google phone with standard firmware and
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 3: standard OS or an Apple phone? I don't know about
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 3: Apple because again, you asked me about Apple and I said,
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 3: I don't know Apple. I don't know what's happening at
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 3: the top of that company, but I know that they
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 3: like to monetize people and that's pervasive in my mind.
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 3: And using data that people don't know is getting used,
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 3: even though it's in a 40 page terms of services
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 3: document is pervasive. So I just don't know what that
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 3: highest level of analysis. And that's why I said to
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 3: answer your question about the safest phone, I would ask
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 3: you what you're using it for, who you are and
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 3: what are you doing in the world? is the best
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 3: way to answer that question.
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 1: So me, like what would you recommend I use?
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 3: I mean, I wouldn't want to, I mean, okay, I'll
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 3: tell you generally what I would say because you might
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 3: ask me that question one day because we go back
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 3: and forth about a lot of tech. I know specifically
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 3: what I would recommend for you to do and I'd
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 3: even tell you to hire someone else to do it
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 3: and not me because that just, that checks and balances
• 1:58:14
  Speaker 3: is what I would want. But for you, I would
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 3: say you should take something like a Raspberry Pi and
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 3: you should run WireGuard on your phone and you should
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 3: route all of your internet traffic through something like a
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 3: home terminal at your house through a Raspberry Pi. using
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 3: something like WireGuard, which is a VPN that I use
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 3: that's very good. And everything should be routed through that.
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 3: And if you trust Apple, continue using Apple. If you
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 3: don't trust Apple, then use Android. And you could use
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 3: a pixel and do graphene, and you could use Signal
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 3: on there and those other things, and you're going to
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 3: be relatively safe. But again, if I'm a nation state actor,
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 3: I can create circumstances where I'm going to get access
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 3: to your shit and I'm going to lock you down. Um,
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 3: and there, some of them are more expensive than other
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 3: methods to do it, but I'm a pragmatist and you
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 3: can always come up with a method to get ahold
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 3: of somebody's shit. You can always create the circumstances, especially
• 1:59:11
  Speaker 3: if you're a nation state actor to get ahold of
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 3: somebody's stuff. That would be the very high level of
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 3: things that I would recommend to you. Um, uh, just
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 3: out the gate.
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very concerning because it seems like these things
• 1:59:27
  Speaker 1: keep getting stronger and more capable. Yes. Like the Pegasus
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 1: 2 being a non-click exploit. Yes. So all they have
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: to do essentially is just know your number. Yep.
• 1:59:39
  Speaker 3: And that's, you know, just make yourself a difficult target
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 3: would be my best recommendation. When you're going to answer
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 3: questions about password reset, don't answer them honestly. Write down
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 3: in a physical journal or something how you answered those questions.
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 3: Don't answer them honestly. Um, you know, all of these
• 1:59:56
  Speaker 3: things we think are added for layers of protection. For instance,
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 3: you used to get that pop-up on your phone where
• 2:00:01
  Speaker 3: it said, you know, there'd be like blocks of pictures
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 3: and it would say, click all of the pictures with a, uh,
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 3: with a traffic light. And I was just going to
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 3: say that a traffic light in it. Yeah. Part of
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 3: that might be for security. The other part of it
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 3: is they're using the information of what you're clicking to
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 3: train neural networks.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 3: You're a product at that point.
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:00:20
  Speaker 3: You think you're getting security out of it. but you're
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 3: a product at that point because you're helping to educate
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 3: a neural network on what traffic lights look like and
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 3: how they can look and all those different instantiations of
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 3: traffic lights. So, and again, like we have to separate
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 3: causality and intention and outcomes in that the companies might
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 3: do this because they want to create the greatest AI ever.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 3: But when you're issuing someone a 40 page terms of
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 3: service document on everything they can do with your thing
• 2:00:48
  Speaker 3: that you paid $ 2, 000 for, it's just, you know, We
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 3: need more ethical people. At least what Eric Prince was
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 3: trying to do was right, which was we need to
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 3: off-ramp from some of these big things because the way
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 3: that this government is going, I'm very worried about the
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 3: rights of the individual now and going forward because we
• 2:01:08
  Speaker 3: have an uneducated class of people for all of the
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 3: reasons in the world. If you want to just focus
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 3: on your family and you're not thinking about these things,
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 3: I don't hate that for you. But the idea of
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 3: individual autonomy and rights has been so shit on in
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 3: recent years that when we get more uneducated and we rely,
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 3: large language models are great, but they're not a foundation
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 3: of learning. In other words, we have a lot of
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 3: people with access to information, but no wisdom. It's like
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 3: when your parents would say, learn how to do addition
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 3: and subtraction on paper before you use a calculator. Like
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 3: understand how to do research and cite sources and understand
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 3: you know, how to conduct really good analysis before you
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 3: just use a neural network for everything. Because as we
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 3: lose focus of our civics and, and, and what our
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 3: founders are trying to do and the uniqueness of it,
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 3: which is truly unique, which is, you know, when I
• 2:02:02
  Speaker 3: joined the army, I joined the army to get out
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 3: of North Dakota. When I re-enlisted in the army, it's
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 3: because I believed in the experiment and that's another five
• 2:02:08
  Speaker 3: hour podcast. But, um, The foundation of the experiment is
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 3: as good, but we've eroded it in so many ways
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 3: over the years and given up so many individual rights
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 3: in the name of security. And I'm sure it's been
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 3: said on here before, but Franklin said, anybody who gives
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 3: up their individual rights in the name of security deserves neither.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 3: Your freedoms in the name of security deserve neither. And
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 3: it's some of the ways that they've done it have
• 2:02:33
  Speaker 3: been really above the surface. And it, it frankly is.
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 3: blows my mind that we let the government get away
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 3: with some of these things that we let them get
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 3: away with, where you even explain it to people and like,
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 3: I don't see it. Like, I don't see how that
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 3: was a big deal. And I'm like, it was a
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 3: total recalibration of the system that allowed the Democratic Party
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 3: and the Republican Party to usurp your rights in a
• 2:02:56
  Speaker 3: way that if you knew any better, you'd probably be protesting.
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 3: Like some of the ways that they've done this, you know,
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 3: we can go with the easy stuff like the Patriot Act, right?
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 3: In the name of security, we're going to start collecting
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 3: on Americans. And the Biden and Obama administration, I will
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 3: say this, at risk of getting in trouble because I
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 3: used to have a clearance. They had a massive vacuum
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 3: cleaner and they knew what it was vacuuming up. And
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 3: they kept vacuuming it up anyway in the name of security.
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 3: I'm not saying they were going after American citizens, but
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 3: they certainly knew they were. And they just vacuumed shit up.
• 2:03:34
  Speaker 3: and collected it and stored it in a database.
• 2:03:36
  Speaker 1: In case they needed it.
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 3: In case at some point we needed to, you know,
• 2:03:40
  Speaker 3: come up with a narrative or get rid of somebody
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 3: who's inconvenient or whatever else that just flies in the
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 3: face of individual American rights and American autonomy and is really,
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 3: in my mind, the anti-pattern to freedom. It's just really,
• 2:03:55
  Speaker 3: really bad. I mean, I'll give you one that people
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 3: always crap on me whenever I talk to them about it,
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 3: but there's two that really bother me. One of them
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 3: being like the 17th Amendment. Do you know the 17th
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 3: Amendment of the Constitution? I don't. So when the founders,
• 2:04:08
  Speaker 3: when you read the Federalist Papers and the Federalist Papers,
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 3: I really love reading the Federalist Papers. I love reading
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 3: how they informed the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 3: Declaration even. John Jay, James Madison wrote these documents explaining
• 2:04:22
  Speaker 3: the framework and the 17th Amendment, essentially how the Senate,
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 3: the Senate, right, the 50 people there that are supposed
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 3: to be representing us, was originally constructed was a state
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 3: would have legislatures. And the state legislatures and the governor
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 3: would appoint the senator. The reason that the founders did
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 3: that was because the state governments had to give power
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 3: to the federal government to exist. Back with the Articles
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 3: of Confederation. Confederation, is that right? Articles of, I think
• 2:04:53
  Speaker 3: it's Articles of Confederation. I'm blowing up. Sorry, I'm going nuts.
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 3: Back before there was a strong centralized American government, we
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 3: had problems with money. We had problems with interstate commerce
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 3: and those types of things. And those articles eventually turned
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 3: into what is the Constitution. But the states had to
• 2:05:08
  Speaker 3: grant that power. And the signers of the Declaration of
• 2:05:11
  Speaker 3: Independence and the Constitution knew that the states needed to
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 3: be those small projects that we talked about before where
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 3: if California wanted to go nuts, let them go nuts.
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 3: But it shouldn't impact what's happening in Texas. It shouldn't
• 2:05:23
  Speaker 3: impact what's happening over in New England. It shouldn't impact
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 3: what's happening in the Midwest. But if that goes nuts
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 3: and it fails, it needs to fail. So the state senators,
• 2:05:31
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, the state legislatures would come together and they
• 2:05:35
  Speaker 3: would vote for a senator. They would elect a senator.
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 3: And that senator's job was to go to the federal
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 3: government and protect the rights of the state, not to
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 3: protect the rights of individuals per se, and certainly not
• 2:05:47
  Speaker 3: to embolden the federal government. But with the 17th Amendment,
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 3: what happened was the House of Representatives function was to
• 2:05:55
  Speaker 3: be the petulant children of government. So their job was
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 3: to come up with crazy ideas, crazy laws, all of
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 3: those things. The more liberal version of government jurisprudence would
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 3: be the house of representatives, your crazy ideas. And then
• 2:06:08
  Speaker 3: you had state senators who were supposed to be between
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 3: the house and the president who would say, well, here's
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 3: a good idea, but the rest of this is retarded AOC.
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 3: Like we're not doing all this. That's crazy. Or whoever else,
• 2:06:20
  Speaker 3: name your Republican who's an asshat as well. We're not
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 3: doing these things. And that's because it would erode the
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 3: state's rights and the state's constitution and what made this
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 3: state great. Because what the legislatures would do is say, hey,
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 3: Joe Rogan, you've made a lot of money and you've
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 3: got a big podcast and a big voice and you've
• 2:06:36
  Speaker 3: learned some lessons around the way and you were able
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 3: to do that in Texas and you decided to come
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 3: to Texas because we had all of these things that
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 3: California didn't have. We need you to go to the
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 3: Senate for three years or six years or seven years,
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 3: whatever it was back then, and represent those same principles.
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 3: So when Obamacare comes through, you can say not only no,
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 3: but fuck no, like I'm not voting for this thing.
• 2:06:58
  Speaker 3: And it was to protect the state. But what the
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 3: 17th Amendment did was It was redundant with the House
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 3: of Representatives, which was, in the founders' eyes, the only
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 3: popular vote part of the American government was the popular vote.
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 3: And then you had the way the president gets elected
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 3: through electors, but you had the state senate, which was
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 3: appointed by the states. So the legislatures, and I'll use
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 3: North Dakota where I'm from, you'll have two big cities,
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 3: Fargo and Grand Forks, North Dakota. It's where the universities are.
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 3: It's where your crazy kids are. Crazy thought exists. Hyper
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 3: crazy ideas. But some of them are useful. The rest
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 3: of the state's.
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 1: Agriculture, right?
• 2:07:39
  Speaker 3: So all of those legislators from all of those counties
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 3: or those legislative districts would get together and say, we're
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 3: going to put Bill Thompson, that would never happen, but
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 3: in charge. He's going to be at the Senate representing
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 3: North Dakota. But he has to represent the whole state.
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 3: In other words, you can't do things that will help
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 3: Grand Forks or Fargo because that's where the universities are,
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 3: that's where all the crazy politics are. You also need
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 3: to be thinking about the guys out in the western counties,
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 3: Lamar County in North Dakota or way out west. You
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 3: have to protect agriculture. You have to protect small businesses.
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 3: You have to protect families. What the 17th Amendment under
• 2:08:13
  Speaker 3: Wendell Wilson and how they really usurped the Constitution and
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 3: made the Senate a redundant place They made it a
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 3: redundant house of representatives and using the popular vote. So
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 3: now we use popular vote for that. But if you
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 3: want the popular vote in North Dakota, 85% of the
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 3: population is in Fargo and Grand Forks. So now you've got,
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 3: if I want to run for Senate in North Dakota,
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to spend all of my time in
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 3: Fargo and Grand Forks. Because if I can repeat back
• 2:08:38
  Speaker 3: to those people, all the ideas that they want to hear,
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 3: I'm going to win that vote. And I don't have
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 3: to represent those people out in the rest of the
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 3: state in anything.
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 2:08:45
  Speaker 3: So they created a redundant house of representatives. But another
• 2:08:48
  Speaker 3: reason why it happened was they wanted popular vote because
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 3: there is no amount of money that you could stick
• 2:08:54
  Speaker 3: into a legislature out in the western part of North Dakota.
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 3: You can't bribe these people. But the DNC and RNC
• 2:09:00
  Speaker 3: now can say, look, these two senators are running. We
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 3: like this guy. So we're going to this guy will
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 3: do whatever we tell him to do. And it has
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 3: nothing to do with the state or representing the state's
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 3: rights or the rest of those legislative districts. We're going
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 3: to pick this senator and he's getting $ 300 million for
• 2:09:13
  Speaker 3: his election bid. And this other guy who's a slower-moving
• 2:09:18
  Speaker 3: constitutional conservative who might be a free market absolutist and
• 2:09:22
  Speaker 3: a classical liberal, he's not being funded. But under the
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 3: state architecture, you might have been a better representation of
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 3: the state. And that's why the legislators had to vote
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 3: for you to put you in as a senator. You
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 3: had to represent the whole state. But now, all that
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 3: someone who wants to be a senator needs to do
• 2:09:41
  Speaker 3: is go to the Republican National Committee or the Democratic
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 3: the Democrat National Committee and say, I'll do all the
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 3: things you tell me to do, fund my campaign, and
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna go stumping Fargo and Grand Forks, North Dakota,
• 2:09:53
  Speaker 3: and the hell with the rest of the state. It's
• 2:09:55
  Speaker 3: very important. It's a very important sleight of hand. And
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 3: when that happened, you made a redundant House of Representatives,
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 3: and the state no longer was protected at the federal level.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 3: And what happened was all of the power from all
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 3: of these states and these legislatures and these individuals got
• 2:10:11
  Speaker 3: sucked up into the federal government. And then after that,
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 3: you see all of these things that would never have
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 3: been passed by a state getting passed, things like Obamacare,
• 2:10:18
  Speaker 3: things like the Patriot Act, certain war resolutions, all kinds
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 3: of things where it just further erodes the power of
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 3: the state. And federal government wants that because it puts
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 3: all of the power up in the federal government. And
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 3: people always say we need to get money out of politics. No,
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 3: we need to get power out of politics. That power
• 2:10:37
  Speaker 3: that they've taken over the last 130 years or so
• 2:10:42
  Speaker 3: used to exist at the state and local levels because
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 3: they wanted these thought experiments happening where we could pluck
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 3: the best things out of them and forget the rest.
• 2:10:49
  Speaker 3: But all of that power has now gone up to
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 3: the federal government and the federal government won't ever release
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 3: that power and they only want more budget and more
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 3: spending to execute that power. And that's also because the
• 2:11:01
  Speaker 3: interest groups that want to go, they don't want to
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 3: have to go and convince the whole state of whether
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 3: or not something is good that people are going to
• 2:11:06
  Speaker 3: vote on. They just want to go take a lobby
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 3: and and go up to the federal government because they
• 2:11:11
  Speaker 3: want all of the power up there as well. And
• 2:11:13
  Speaker 3: the federal government wants all the power up there as
• 2:11:15
  Speaker 3: well because they make $ 300, 000 a year before they become
• 2:11:17
  Speaker 3: a politician and they're worth $ 30 million when they're done
• 2:11:20
  Speaker 3: being a politician because all of the money has to
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 3: go to the federal government because they're in charge of
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 3: light bulbs we can use, computers we can use, flush
• 2:11:27
  Speaker 3: toilets we can have, how our roads are going to look,
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 3: what our medical care looks like. None of those powers
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 3: are explicitly written in the Constitution of the United States.
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 3: And they use things like the commerce law and other
• 2:11:39
  Speaker 3: things in order to create things like Obamacare, where really
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 3: we want competing states. If Texas comes up with a
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 3: great way to do healthcare and North Dakota's isn't so great,
• 2:11:50
  Speaker 3: they can look at that experiment and they can adopt
• 2:11:52
  Speaker 3: the principles and they can have it at that level.
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 3: But it's much easier to get change at the local
• 2:11:57
  Speaker 3: level when the power is derived from the state and
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 3: the individual. Because if I want to change the way
• 2:12:01
  Speaker 3: that my state does healthcare, I have one of two
• 2:12:03
  Speaker 3: options or three options. I can run for office. I
• 2:12:06
  Speaker 3: can support someone who It's going to go into office
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 3: and do what I want or I can move. But
• 2:12:11
  Speaker 3: when everything's centralized at the federal government and everything flows
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 3: from the federal government, all of the money, power, and
• 2:12:16
  Speaker 3: gravity is up there. And the individual, the 300 million
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 3: of us or so, have really no power now to
• 2:12:23
  Speaker 3: exercise either states' rights or individual rights at the higher level.
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 3: I hope I'm elucidating this correctly.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: You are.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 3: But it's a real usurpation of individual and state autonomy
• 2:12:32
  Speaker 3: that really got rid of state power. which was, if
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 3: you read the federalist papers, was so important to the
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 3: founders that there was this state, that the state's needs
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 3: were organized because the state was where the founders wanted
• 2:12:43
  Speaker 3: these thought experiments. You read Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan, or John Locke,
• 2:12:48
  Speaker 3: or Montesquieu. All of them talked about this great experiment
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 3: that was being set up and how it was built
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 3: on all of this Western politics and everything that had
• 2:12:55
  Speaker 3: came before it on how we could have a government
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 3: that was forced to respect the rights of individuals and
• 2:13:01
  Speaker 3: allowed for these competing think tanks of ideas to and
• 2:13:04
  Speaker 3: that the power would never rest at the federal government.
• 2:13:06
  Speaker 3: But the 17th Amendment was a way that a lot
• 2:13:09
  Speaker 3: of that power went from the state level and the
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 3: state legislatures. And now to become the president, they want
• 2:13:16
  Speaker 3: to do a popular vote. And under a popular vote,
• 2:13:18
  Speaker 3: you would just have to campaign in New York and LA.
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 3: You would get the popular vote out of the likely
• 2:13:23
  Speaker 3: voting people. And now the rest of the country is not.
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 3: And that would be another, you hear all these people saying,
• 2:13:29
  Speaker 3: we need a popular vote. We can't have the electoral college.
• 2:13:32
  Speaker 3: We can't have All of these things, everything needs to be,
• 2:13:36
  Speaker 3: pure democracy allows 51% to rule 49%. And that was
• 2:13:41
  Speaker 3: another thing the founders were working fervently to get away from.
• 2:13:45
  Speaker 3: And that's why we had an electoral college. And it's
• 2:13:48
  Speaker 3: actually quite beautiful when you actually read about it and
• 2:13:50
  Speaker 3: examine it. It's why we had the state Senate and
• 2:13:53
  Speaker 3: state legislatures. And this is why we had the house.
• 2:13:55
  Speaker 3: You had all levels of the things of government that
• 2:13:58
  Speaker 3: the founders cared about being represented in this body politic.
• 2:14:01
  Speaker 3: And it was a beautiful thing. And I could go
• 2:14:03
  Speaker 3: on for 15 more things about that. I won't do
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 3: it for the sake of your listeners because I doubt
• 2:14:07
  Speaker 3: this is what they wanted to do. But similar things
• 2:14:09
  Speaker 3: happened with the Supreme Court, Marbury v. Madison, and allowing
• 2:14:13
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court to have judicial review. That was never
• 2:14:15
  Speaker 3: a thing that was in the Constitution. In the Supreme Court,
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 3: if you like the Supreme Court, being able to have
• 2:14:20
  Speaker 3: the power to describe everything as being either constitutional or unconstitutional,
• 2:14:24
  Speaker 3: then you're not ruled by a democracy. You're ruled by
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 3: an oligarchy. You've got eight people in robes that are
• 2:14:28
  Speaker 3: going to tell you whether or not laws are good
• 2:14:30
  Speaker 3: or bad. And that's not the founding of this country.
• 2:14:32
  Speaker 3: It's not how it was intended to work. And that
• 2:14:34
  Speaker 3: all started back in Marbury v. Madison with Thomas Jefferson
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 3: and these writs of mandamus that were the Supreme Court,
• 2:14:42
  Speaker 3: long story short, essentially granted itself the power to conduct
• 2:14:45
  Speaker 3: judicial review under the old system or the old system.
• 2:14:49
  Speaker 3: The system that was ratified and that the founders approved
• 2:14:51
  Speaker 3: was if a law was deemed unconstitutional, it would go
• 2:14:56
  Speaker 3: before the Supreme Court and they would rule in favor
• 2:14:59
  Speaker 3: of the persons. And then eventually the government would figure out, oh,
• 2:15:02
  Speaker 3: this law doesn't work. But it was never on the
• 2:15:04
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court to say constitutional, unconstitutional. You would get arrested
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 3: for some law and it would get appealed to the
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 3: Supreme Court. The Supreme Court would say, we're not punishing
• 2:15:12
  Speaker 3: this person. This is against the Constitution. But the government
• 2:15:16
  Speaker 3: would have to keep arresting people. They'd have to keep
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 3: going in front of the federal government. So what I'm
• 2:15:20
  Speaker 3: saying is, and I'm sorry to go off on this,
• 2:15:22
  Speaker 3: we can go back to tech. But all I'm saying
• 2:15:24
  Speaker 3: is the core of the American experiment in individual rights
• 2:15:28
  Speaker 3: and what makes this country so great and why I
• 2:15:31
  Speaker 3: was willing to die for it after my initial enlistment
• 2:15:34
  Speaker 3: and why I have such love for this is because
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 3: it was the only experiment where the value of the
• 2:15:38
  Speaker 3: individual was held at the top of the hierarchy and
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 3: that people could truly be allowed to flourish. And in
• 2:15:44
  Speaker 3: 250 years, we did more than any society could have
• 2:15:46
  Speaker 3: hoped to have achieved in tens of thousands of years,
• 2:15:49
  Speaker 3: or not that it's been around that long, but in
• 2:15:51
  Speaker 3: thousands of years, everything tends towards, um, disorder and everything
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 3: power always gets centralized. And we had a framework to
• 2:16:00
  Speaker 3: do that, but we were willing participants in our own demise.
• 2:16:03
  Speaker 3: And now we're scratching our heads and wondering why there's
• 2:16:05
  Speaker 3: no individual and why there's no individual autonomy. Why a
• 2:16:08
  Speaker 3: guy can't smoke weed on the weekend or why a
• 2:16:10
  Speaker 3: guy can't do X, Y, or Z because we have
• 2:16:12
  Speaker 3: centralized the authority and the power and the decision-making structure.
• 2:16:16
  Speaker 3: And we're allowing them to be, there would be no
• 2:16:19
  Speaker 3: problem with money in politics if the federal government had
• 2:16:21
  Speaker 3: only the powers that were outlined to it in the constitution.
• 2:16:25
  Speaker 1: I think that's very well said. And I could have
• 2:16:28
  Speaker 1: never said it the way you said it. And I
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 1: think there's a lot to absorb here.
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 2:16:32
  Speaker 1: No, no, it was great, dude. It was great. This
• 2:16:35
  Speaker 1: is one of the things that I love about you.
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 1: You're very thorough.
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thorough is one thing. My friends always say Bill's
• 2:16:41
  Speaker 3: tism is starting to show.
• 2:16:43
  Speaker 1: You got a touch of the tism, but I think
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 1: that's good. Like I said, just like ADHD, I think
• 2:16:47
  Speaker 1: it's a superpower. A lot to absorb. So I think
• 2:16:51
  Speaker 1: we'll wrap it up right here. But thank you. This
• 2:16:52
  Speaker 1: was an awesome conversation. I really appreciate it. It was
• 2:16:54
  Speaker 1: really great.
• 2:16:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 2:16:56
  Speaker 1: We could do this again, too. I'm sure we could
• 2:16:58
  Speaker 1: probably have 30 or 40 of these.
• 2:16:59
  Speaker 3: We didn't even get to AI. I wanted to get
• 2:17:01
  Speaker 3: to AI because I think I have a very anti-pattern
• 2:17:03
  Speaker 3: to AI and how you understand it. But if you want,
• 2:17:06
  Speaker 3: we can save that for another time.
• 2:17:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll do that for our next one because I
• 2:17:09
  Speaker 1: think that's another four hours.
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, probably.
• 2:17:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And by then, who knows where it's
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 1: going to be. Jensen Huang from NVIDIA recently declared that
• 2:17:18
  Speaker 1: we've reached AGI.
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I would, yeah, I could. yeah, I just
• 2:17:25
  Speaker 3: couldn't disagree more. And I think I could, in the
• 2:17:27
  Speaker 3: same way, I just.
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 1: You're not the only one.
• 2:17:29
  Speaker 3: There's quite a few people.
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:17:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, it's consciousness projection and I'll sum it
• 2:17:33
  Speaker 3: up in a minute. At the end of the day, um,
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 3: neural networks are mathematical functions. They rest in, you know,
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 3: waiting neurons based on training data and applying power to
• 2:17:43
  Speaker 3: train models. It's all mathematic. There's no sense of knowing
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 3: there in that, you know, Penrose, I've read a lot of,
• 2:17:52
  Speaker 3: is ORC, O-R, if people want to read about that,
• 2:17:55
  Speaker 3: I won't explain it, orchestrated objective reduction and how the
• 2:18:00
  Speaker 3: mind works in these fleets of consciousness that we have,
• 2:18:03
  Speaker 3: these shimmers of consciousness that we have based around what,
• 2:18:05
  Speaker 3: you know, he describes in the microtubule. We get conscious
• 2:18:09
  Speaker 3: thought And that conscious thought we project into things. AI
• 2:18:12
  Speaker 3: is very good conscious projection, but it will never have
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 3: consciousness or knowing because it has no system of values.
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 3: And if we were to instill values in it, it
• 2:18:20
  Speaker 3: would still be consciousness projection. You saw my dad's cabin.
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 3: My dad died when I was five, but I bought
• 2:18:26
  Speaker 3: it back and was working on it. And inside of
• 2:18:28
  Speaker 3: his cabin, I got to learn a lot about my
• 2:18:31
  Speaker 3: father by working on the cabin that he built. He
• 2:18:34
  Speaker 3: would measure things and cut things right on walls and
• 2:18:36
  Speaker 3: that type of stuff. That's all consciousness projection that allowed
• 2:18:39
  Speaker 3: me to get to know him away. I might not
• 2:18:41
  Speaker 3: have even known him if he were alive, but I
• 2:18:43
  Speaker 3: got to re-experience and understand my father and his thoroughness
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 3: through that cabin. AI is consciousness projection. It's projected consciousness.
• 2:18:50
  Speaker 3: It's getting very good, but on a calculator, you could
• 2:18:54
  Speaker 3: get the same thing that you get out of a
• 2:18:56
  Speaker 3: neural network if you had sufficient time. I could present
• 2:18:59
  Speaker 3: you a question just like you did on propensity. I
• 2:19:01
  Speaker 3: could sit here with a rule book and I could
• 2:19:03
  Speaker 3: type in a calculator. It might take me a million years.
• 2:19:08
  Speaker 3: but I could do it and I could give you
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 3: the same answer that a neural network would give you.
• 2:19:12
  Speaker 3: That doesn't mean consciousness or knowing or AGI is present.
• 2:19:16
  Speaker 3: It relies on its training data. It can only give
• 2:19:19
  Speaker 3: you what the training data gives it. It needs human
• 2:19:22
  Speaker 3: consciousness projection like we talked about with the CAPTCHAs or
• 2:19:25
  Speaker 3: we talked about with uploading photos to Google Drive. It
• 2:19:28
  Speaker 3: needs that training data. And to me, it's just really fancy,
• 2:19:32
  Speaker 3: clever math. And having trained these networks for a dozen
• 2:19:36
  Speaker 3: years now, and working with them, they're just really clever
• 2:19:41
  Speaker 3: consciousness projection. And so, yeah, that is four hours and
• 2:19:45
  Speaker 3: we can do that next time.
• 2:19:46
  Speaker 1: We'll do that next time. Definitely.
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 3: But if people, you mentioned the app.
• 2:19:49
  Speaker 1: By the time we do it next time, who knows
• 2:19:51
  Speaker 1: what the fuck is going to be going on with
• 2:19:52
  Speaker 1: AI too.
• 2:19:53
  Speaker 3: But if people want to learn more about me or
• 2:19:56
  Speaker 3: my company, if I can say that. Yeah, please. It's spartanforge.ai.
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 3: We're built under the rubric of individual freedom. I want
• 2:20:02
  Speaker 3: people outdoors. I want people hunting. I want people experiencing nature.
• 2:20:06
  Speaker 3: I want people... providing for their families. The best part
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 3: of my day is when my kids are eating a
• 2:20:11
  Speaker 3: backstrap of an animal that I took. And I want
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 3: to enable people to go out and do that. And
• 2:20:16
  Speaker 3: even though it's paradoxical through an app, you can get lost.
• 2:20:19
  Speaker 3: You've got to conserve time. You've got to e-scout. You've
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 3: got to learn things before you go out there. So
• 2:20:23
  Speaker 3: we built this company under that. It's one of my,
• 2:20:25
  Speaker 3: I've got three other companies that I'm doing, but Spartan
• 2:20:27
  Speaker 3: Forge is the one that I'm really working on. Well,
• 2:20:30
  Speaker 3: I really appreciate that. We've put a lot of work
• 2:20:31
  Speaker 3: into it and we've got a lot more coming over
• 2:20:33
  Speaker 3: the summer. So If people want to support us or
• 2:20:36
  Speaker 3: want to get out there and get some hunting done,
• 2:20:38
  Speaker 3: please check it out. And I answer all the Instagram DMs.
• 2:20:40
  Speaker 3: So if you want to have a question for me.
• 2:20:42
  Speaker 1: Good luck with that now.
• 2:20:43
  Speaker 3: Well, I try to. I spend about two hours every
• 2:20:45
  Speaker 3: morning doing it. But good luck.
• 2:20:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Joe, for having me. Thanks, brother. Appreciate you
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 1: very much.
• 2:20:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I get that.
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 1: All right, you too. Bye, everybody.