Latest / The BEYOND Podcast / Gavin Stone: Spy Secrets of Reading People and Influence

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Gavin Stone: Spy Secrets of Reading People and Influence · The BEYOND Podcast

• 0:00
  Unknown: Mr. Gavin Stones, you are a total communications mind
• 0:09
  reader. I could tell you something that
• 0:11
  you were holding back then from when I said that I'm not going
• 0:13
  to. I'm not.
• 0:14
  No, you've written a lot of books.
• 0:17
  Your career. You went from intelligence work
• 0:21
  to CEO. In the intelligence world, I
• 0:23
  mean, some of my assignments, one of my very, very first
• 0:26
  assignments, I was sat down and they said to me, find out how
• 0:30
  the Russians are getting rail and information out of Korea,
• 0:34
  speak to somebody, find somebody, target them
• 0:37
  deliberately. And then we have to talk them
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  into doing something that's not in their best interest, could
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  get them killed or in prison for life, or even their family
• 0:45
  killed or imprisoned, Ask them to betray their country, commit
• 0:48
  treason and steal secret information.
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  There's two most important things.
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  And this is where the big difference is between getting to
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  know people, not just who they are and their personality type,
• 0:58
  but how they want to be perceived.
• 1:02
  Mr. Gavin Stone, you are a total communications mind reader, body
• 1:10
  language expert. Is is that like a good summary?
• 1:15
  Well, yeah, so it's it's one of those things where people say to
• 1:18
  me also, you're a body language expert and say, yeah, and they
• 1:21
  follow their arms. So what am I thinking?
• 1:23
  Yeah, I'm trying not to do anything.
• 1:24
  You see, I'm just. People do that.
• 1:26
  There's. No, no, no.
• 1:28
  I'm actually happy for you to to read my body language as well,
• 1:32
  because I also want to improve as a podcaster.
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  We all want to improve. And if there's something that
• 1:37
  I'm doing that you feel I could improve, please tell me.
• 1:41
  No, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm scared.
• 1:44
  But yes, you bring your skills to governments, to boardrooms,
• 1:49
  to negotiations. You train people, you've written
• 1:52
  a lot of books and yeah, you've got knowledge that people can
• 2:00
  definitely benefit from because we aren't as self aware as we'd
• 2:04
  like to think we are. And it's only when you see
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  yourself on camera, like as a third parties of looking, and
• 2:12
  then you realize, do I really behave like that?
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  Am I really speaking like that? And because you might think
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  something in your mind, you might think or maybe the
• 2:20
  conversation is going flat or something like that.
• 2:22
  But then, that's not always what you think in your mind is not
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  always what translates to how the world observes you.
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  Funnily enough, part of our training when we, when we did
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  the, the bit on deception detection, not only do we have
• 2:35
  to learn to read other people and we're learning all about
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  going to their tells when we go through it's, I suppose it's
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  kind of like an interview very much like this where you set up
• 2:45
  with someone, all the cameras are on you and afterwards they
• 2:48
  give you the recording and they say, right, watch it back
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  because you're the only one who knows when you're lying.
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  So therefore you need to learn your own tells.
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  And when you learn your own tells, you can not only suppress
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  them a little when you're when you know you're being deceitful,
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  but at the same time you can also pepper them in another part
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  when you're being truthful. OK, 'cause I was gonna say, why
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  are you training yourself to be more deceitful then?
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  So if if you imagine working in the world of intelligence,
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  sometimes you have to work. Oh, you have to, but for the
• 3:17
  greater. Good.
• 3:17
  Yeah. So there's loads and loads of
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  reasons that you might be playing a role, for example, and
• 3:21
  the Ministry of Defence and the intelligence agencies all around
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  that, they love role play. And you, you know, you cannot
• 3:27
  break cover, but you know, at any expense you must be able to,
• 3:31
  to kind of continue down that path.
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  And and therefore it's important that you learn what your tells
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  are so as that you don't mess up in the middle of something and
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  and it has been done many times. Oh wow, I didn't.
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  I literally never thought about it from this angle.
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  I, I don't consider myself a very good liar, so I just, if
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  there's something I don't want to say, I just, I know that if I
• 3:53
  lie about it, it's going to be terrible, so I'd avoid saying
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  it. That's how I I'm aware enough to
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  know that, so I think don't even go there.
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  The problem is if someone asks me directly.
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  Yep, a lot of people tend to do that.
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  That kind of silent breakaway from.
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  Every breakaway but. That can be in itself can be a
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  tell, you know, and I've seen it, you know, if you can't have
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  imagine maybe it's a house share and you've got four or five
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  people living in the house and somebody comes running
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  downstairs from the bathroom and they go who used all my shampoo?
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  And three of the four people in the room say it wasn't me, it
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  wasn't me, it wasn't me. But one of them say like that.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That then, you know, you know,
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  it's them. And it sounds obvious when it's
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  put in a scenario like that. But that that comes from the the
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  the fight freeze or flight response that so many people
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  have. And of course, you know, the
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  natural instinct is to kind of freeze, you know, saying
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  nothing, keep still, don't look, don't make eye contact.
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  And hopefully the threat goes away.
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  Well, you think these things, so we're going to let's let's just
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  bust some of these. So what is the biggest body
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  language myth out there? That one thing equals one
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  thought. So for example, people turn
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  around and say, I could tell you a line because you had your arm
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  solved it. Well, that's complete.
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  Not a real issue. Yeah, there's there's no one
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  thing that gives away a thought or an action or or anything
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  else. It's what you're looking for is
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  clusters. So if you're looking for
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  somebody who you, you're not sure if they're being deceitful
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  and they give you 3 or more clusters of, of body language
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  tells. So if they pull their feet in
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  while they fold their arms while they look down, their blink rate
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  goes up. You know, their, their voice
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  tone changes, you get clunky speech.
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  There's so many different flags you can look for.
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  And I generally say you know, any less than 3, then discount
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  it entirely 3 or more. That's when you need to start
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  asking. Questions.
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  But if you don't know someone, you don't know what their
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  emotional base is, so it's very hard to read.
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  I suppose you're getting to know them, yes.
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  Yeah, you have to baseline each and every person 1st.
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  And that, that's the part that's the the bit that's misunderstood
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  more than anything. Because even though body
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  language in itself is a language, it's also something
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  that you have to learn it each and every time with each person.
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  And establishing a baseline is all well and good, but you have
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  to also understand that that baseline can also deviate too.
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  Somebody's normal behavior when you baseline them in their home
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  is going to be different to that in the course of law.
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  It's going to be different to when they're drinking with their
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  friends. It's going to be different at
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  work. It's going to be different their
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  parents and they'll have different baselines for all
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  these different scenarios and situations.
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  So you have to, you know, baseline them according to the
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  environment and the situation, and then wow.
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  So to be a really good body language expert, you've got to
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  be highly analytical. Yeah.
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  And it's exhausting as well. So it's something that, you
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  know, you can kind of learn to be more, you know, kind of aware
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  of it, but at the same time, sometimes you just want to
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  switch it off and just say that's it.
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  I just want to walk around with the blinkers on at the moment
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  and take no notice. OK, yeah, because because you
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  know, to pick these things up, you're trying not to pick them
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  up. OK, so if you only had 60
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  seconds to teach someone 1 trick to read people better, what
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  would that be? For reading people better, I'd
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  probably say blink right? This is one that really goes
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  underrated. I know your eyes never.
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  So what it does, people's people's blink rate changes
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  dependent upon stress, and that's the amount of blinks per
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  minute. So if you can imagine somebody
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  who's watching the film or reading a book or concentrating
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  or listening intently, their blink rate is very, very low.
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  Maybe one, maybe even 2A minute. If somebody is in a high stress
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  situation, their blink rate is going to be a lot more.
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  And that can be, you know, kind of even up to 90 blinks per
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  minute. So what you do, just count it
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  over 6 seconds, multiply it by 10.
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  You're not counting the blinker arena.
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  Yeah, that's why I think you feel overwhelmed.
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  But yeah, blinkerate would be a good one.
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  There's a lot in the eyes, yeah. And breath location as well, you
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  know, just whether somebody's chest breathing or belly
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  breathing tells you a lot. So yeah.
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  That chest breathing or belly? So chest breathing is nerves.
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  More people are kind of, and it doesn't necessarily mean nerves.
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  It could be excitement, it could be a number of things, but
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  generally people are more relaxed when they're belly
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  breathing in in comparison to when they're chest breathing.
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  OK, OK. So in terms of your your career,
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  you went from intelligence work to CEOs and the interest is
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  what's the difference from spies to to bored dreams?
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  Like how? How was that?
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  Well, they like anybody in charge of anything.
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  They want answers, you know, so it's something like when I did
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  my work, it was very simply a case of this is what we want to
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  find out, go and do it. And then you get to CEOs and
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  they want answers of why isn't my company working?
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  Why should, why am I not making more?
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  Why is my competitor doing things or quicker market than
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  me, whatever the questions may be.
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  And what I'll do is I'll go in and I'll look at the overall
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  situation. I'll be able to kind of say, all
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  right, this is how we can amend this or this is a way we can.
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  Find overall sorry situation. Do you mean with them or how
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  they are in there? How they interact with people
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  it. Could be any number of things,
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  so it would all depend entirely on what the questions are the
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  CEO wants the answer to to start.
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  OK, so it might be why is my team not engaging with me?
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  Or why? Why am I asking for one thing
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  and getting another? On the other hand, it might be
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  why do my competitors come out with a the same product as me
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  six months before I do? And so, you know, entirely
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  dependent upon what they want is wearable, then go in and kind of
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  get the answers for them. Gosh, so you go into these
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  companies and in a very intelligence full on way, you
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  analyze that in great detail and you'll take different people
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  into the room and you'll ask them questions.
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  And I mean, is it like a proper interrogation?
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  I don't know like. How so?
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  Interrogation. Interrogation.
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  A lot of people see that as like kind of waterboarding.
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  People are not going to. It's not anything.
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  Like that, you know it's. That most of the time it's just
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  a conversation and I can generally spend within 2030
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  minutes of somebody being able to tell enough about them to to
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  know more about who they are and how they want to be perceived.
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  God, I'm scared. I'm scared.
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  I'm scared and excited at the same time.
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  No, but that's fascinating. I would love to.
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  It's, it's really a cool thing. I think it's a scary thing, but
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  it's a thrilling thing, I think, to find out how people see you.
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  And even if there's negative things, it's cool to know them
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  because you can you can work on them.
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  And then it's also cool to know the positive things, which might
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  help you build your confidence. So either way, you win.
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  Oh yeah, I think. So and the the more you get to
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  know people, the better it is all around.
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  Even with these companies, when I explain to them when it comes
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  to even things like marketing, for example, yes, and and
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  they'll say, oh, we know our customer and I'll say, no, you
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  don't. You know what worked in your
• 11:00
  last marketing campaign, But just because you know what works
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  doesn't mean to say you know how or why it worked.
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  Could you repeat that with a completely different product or
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  a completely different company and have the same results and
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  they go, well, I, I don't know and say, well, in that case, you
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  don't know your customer, you don't know why it worked.
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  All you know is that something worked.
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  And was it just a case of split testing so many things until
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  eventually you, you hit the jackpot, You know, so getting to
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  know people is the most important thing.
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  And, and once you strip back all the fluff that's out there and
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  get to know there's two most important things.
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  And this is where the big difference is between getting to
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  know people, not just who they are and their personality type,
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  but how they want to be perceived.
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  Oh. Stop it.
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  That's profound. It really is something that's
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  profound. That.
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  They're they're what they're projecting and who they really
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  are are generally millions of miles away from each other.
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  Now we we this is. This is so cool.
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  OK, so when you're negotiating, what non verbal cues give away
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  something that someone's overselling like they're trying
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  to try hard? So I don't know.
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  I've changed my mind about three times with this one.
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  OK, it'll all depend on the stakes, I suppose.
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  And I, I kind of went down the road of the typical cheesy
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  grinning car salesman who's very kind of touching and tapping you
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  on the shoulders and that kind of thing.
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  And yeah, and that's, that's the that's the one that for me.
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  Trying too hard? Sort of.
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  Yeah, they don't need to be verbally pushy, but they just
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  you, you know that 10 minutes after you've left the room,
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  they've forgotten your name because they're now doing
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  exactly the same thing with the next customer.
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  And that's where if you actually get to know your customer
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  properly on a completely different level, you will lose
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  that naturally and and kind of have a completely different
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  result. Yeah.
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  But all they in the car sales room trying to get there, get to
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  know, Yeah, it's a it's a tricky 1, isn't it?
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  Yeah. And of course, car salesman,
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  again, it it is a numbers game where they've been doing it for
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  so many years and that they're doing they're doing what they've
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  always known because they've been taught and told by other
• 13:12
  people that worked or this is how you sell something.
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  Yeah, a lot of the time it's not the case.
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  You know, again, you're getting to know people.
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  And if you've got somebody, for example, who projects themselves
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  as a strength and power type personality and you're trying to
• 13:27
  sell to them using empathy, you're not going to sell.
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  You know, you need to say, look, this, this, this 4x4, you're
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  going to make you seen as being strong and powerful.
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  And, and, you know, the, the, the big man on, on the road and
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  then you're going to, you know, kind of give him what he needs,
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  the dopamine rush he needs to, to, to go towards the decision
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  you want him to make. At the same time, if you've got
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  somebody who is an acceptance person and they want to be
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  accepted into, you know, society more than you need to go down
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  the road and say, look, you know, once you buy this car,
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  you're going to be in the owners club and you're going to be
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  you're one of the family of these car kind of people that
• 14:05
  and you so you're selling them the dream, but you're selling to
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  their identity, and that's where it all changes.
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  You know, my first job that I ever did was actually as a
• 14:17
  student and I had to sell alcohol in an alcohol store and
• 14:24
  a liquor store, and I had to sell Southern Comfort.
• 14:28
  And it was, I don't know if you know Southern Comfort.
• 14:30
  I do. You do.
• 14:31
  I've had plenty of it do. You like it?
• 14:33
  I do, yeah. Yeah.
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  I don't. I really don't like it, although
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  it just sort of tastes terrible and I'm a terrible liar.
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  So I thought, what am I going to do now?
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  But yeah, you kind of, you see the people and then you you sort
• 14:47
  of think, well, how can I break? First of all, I've got a problem
• 14:49
  with myself now because I'm a terrible.
• 14:51
  I can't tell you. It's delicious when it's not.
• 14:54
  And then so you have to work through that.
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  And then also you've got it with sales.
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  And that's when I thought, I actually like the challenge of
• 15:01
  trying to find out about this person and, and, and maybe step
• 15:06
  into their life and offer them something.
• 15:09
  So if they're like, you know, inside like a braise, you know,
• 15:11
  having a bra, it's a barbecue. And they say, OK, well, you can.
• 15:15
  And then I also said to the to the guy that likes a piece, help
• 15:18
  me, give me something to make this thing.
• 15:20
  Can we not put an umbrella, put some juice and crushed ice?
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  Help me, help me. And then, you know, you make
• 15:25
  this little thing, you make a product out of it that that
• 15:27
  actually now it tastes all right.
• 15:29
  It's actually quite nice. And you can have this at the
• 15:30
  barbecue and you sell them the vision.
• 15:33
  And there is this thing if you have, if you're able to go into
• 15:36
  someone's mind and then show them, you know, go in there and
• 15:41
  almost like have that experience with them of sharing this drink
• 15:44
  and you're having it together and then that translates to a
• 15:46
  sale. That's an incredible experience
• 15:50
  all round, I think. Yeah.
• 15:51
  And it works well with because the majority of people are
• 15:54
  visual people. So if you can get them to kind
• 15:56
  of see what you want them to see and and in their mind, they will
• 16:00
  create it how they want it to be.
• 16:01
  Yeah. So whether it's a fire pit or a
• 16:03
  bar, because the details are irrelevant, they will edit it in
• 16:05
  their mind. And when once you've got them
• 16:07
  down that that route, as it were, the rest is just about
• 16:11
  kind of, you know, the, the final push of how many bottles
• 16:14
  do you want? But there's a way you could take
• 16:18
  that even further. And this is where if you look at
• 16:22
  certain products in comparison to others, some products sell a
• 16:29
  label and other products sell an identity.
• 16:33
  So, for example, if you're buying a Harley-Davidson, you
• 16:36
  then identify yourself as a Harley-Davidson rider.
• 16:40
  You know, people have Harley-Davidson patches and
• 16:42
  tattoos and all sorts of things. They're by the posters and the
• 16:45
  merchandise. But you don't see very many
• 16:47
  people having a Peugeot moped tattoo because you.
• 16:50
  Know it's a product. Yeah, you know, you get, you get
• 16:53
  exactly the same thing with so many things.
• 16:54
  You, especially with things like phones, you know, this is, I'm
• 16:57
  an Android user or I'm an Apple user because they're that that's
• 17:01
  who they are. That's who they see themselves
• 17:03
  as. It's part of their identity.
• 17:05
  Now, not just a product, everything else in the world is
• 17:07
  a product, but certain very clever companies are selling the
• 17:11
  identity. And of course, if you've got
• 17:13
  your bourbon drinker and you're trying to sell them Southern
• 17:16
  Comfort, you don't have to lie. You can just turn around and say
• 17:19
  something along the lines of, look, I'm not a bourbon expert,
• 17:22
  but I can clearly tell you or somebody who knows quality when
• 17:25
  you see it. Why won't you, you know, would
• 17:27
  you, would you take a sample of this and you should be able to
• 17:30
  know instantly that this is a next level quality bourbon and
• 17:34
  give them a sample. And of course, you know, you,
• 17:36
  you, you play on their identity and say, if you're the expert, I
• 17:39
  perceive you as being, then obviously you'll know this is
• 17:42
  that's yeah. And and you've built the story.
• 17:45
  Then I'm going to back out to them and say I'm not an expert
• 17:48
  or on, especially when you've kind of LED them down the path
• 17:51
  of of building up their ego. You must know that they're the
• 17:54
  expert. Then you better have that right
• 17:56
  if they're in. A liquor store looking for
• 17:59
  whiskeys, then you know, you kind of you half the battles
• 18:01
  done for you. So, you know, it's, it's just
• 18:04
  about, you know, giving them that final nudge towards the
• 18:08
  product you want them to have. I was going to say how can a
• 18:12
  leader learn to quickly read a room?
• 18:15
  But I'm not going to say leader. I'm just going to say, how can a
• 18:17
  person learn to read a room quickly?
• 18:21
  Anyone can do it in a boardroom scenario or any other scenario
• 18:24
  like that. Ask a very difficult question on
• 18:28
  watch where everyone's eyes go. It's as simple as that.
• 18:31
  So if you've got a, you know, you're all sitting around a, you
• 18:34
  know, a bold meeting table and you ask the most awkward
• 18:37
  question you can, the people will look in the room for the
• 18:40
  person they want comfort from. Oh yeah, the one who?
• 18:43
  They look in charge, you know, and, and the person in charge is
• 18:46
  not necessarily the person who is highest in rank or the CEO,
• 18:49
  but that's the person that they will go to to say what's the
• 18:52
  answer to this? Or people do exactly the same
• 18:54
  things with jokes and humor. If if ever you want to know if
• 18:59
  somebody is interested in you, you need to tell a funny joke.
• 19:02
  And people, when they laugh, they always look at the person
• 19:05
  they like the most before they actually start laughing.
• 19:08
  So or or while they're laughing. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna be
• 19:11
  analyzing now. So they do that because it's
• 19:13
  kind of it's almost like a social consent to say how how
• 19:17
  much do we laugh at this do? You find this.
• 19:19
  Funny because if you don't, I'm gonna stop laughing.
• 19:21
  But if you do, I can laugh more. And, and it's, it's kind of a if
• 19:25
  the person you like is laughing quite hard, it's a social
• 19:27
  license thing to say, Oh, I can laugh really hard at this as
• 19:29
  well. And it looks like something, a
• 19:31
  bonding moment where we're both kind of laughing together.
• 19:34
  So when I say like this doesn't necessarily need to be sexual
• 19:39
  attraction. It can be, you know, just just,
• 19:41
  you know, blokes in a room just looking at each other and
• 19:43
  they'll, they'll look at the one that.
• 19:46
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of have that have that
• 19:49
  shared moment I. Think in general, if you like
• 19:51
  someone, you look at them and you avoid eye contact if you
• 19:53
  don't right it. Depends on the situation.
• 19:56
  So again, I don't, I don't want to go down the route too much of
• 20:00
  sexual attraction, but that can vary so much, especially if it's
• 20:05
  somebody, and this is by no means sexist, but if you've got
• 20:09
  a female, it's just for an example who's having a bad hair
• 20:12
  day and you know, their makeup's not quite how they wanted to be.
• 20:15
  And maybe they've got a spot, whatever, and the person that
• 20:18
  they really like. Like walks into the room.
• 20:20
  It's very much the ostrich effective.
• 20:22
  If I can't see him, he can't see me.
• 20:23
  So they might avoid contact and carry on working.
• 20:26
  So, yeah, yeah. Just out of self consciousness
• 20:28
  yeah again, you know OK, there are so many variations of
• 20:33
  situations that I don't like to put you know, A1 size fits all
• 20:37
  when it comes to body language It's because I.
• 20:39
  Have always thought, but I mean not not relationship stuff
• 20:42
  really like in a sexual sense, not that, but like in general
• 20:46
  people, you know, just two people when they work together.
• 20:50
  I think if there is more eye contact, they're more.
• 20:53
  They like each other more just as as people and if they're
• 20:56
  less. Yeah, especially if it's
• 20:57
  prolonged. On that's what I found.
• 20:59
  Yeah, if, if, If it's prolonged, then even more so.
• 21:02
  OK, OK, so what's 1 body language mistake that instantly
• 21:08
  weakens your credibility, your authority?
• 21:12
  Quick movement so if you if you think of the animal world and if
• 21:18
  you look at the predators like a big tiger that kind of paces
• 21:22
  through the jungle very kind of, you know, steady controlled
• 21:25
  movements and you know and if you then compare that to that of
• 21:30
  prey instead of the predator and.
• 21:32
  They're. Very looking around and.
• 21:34
  Very erotic. Yeah, so, so of course they're
• 21:37
  the other headlines are all I was darting around and that
• 21:40
  kind. Of they're actually true.
• 21:41
  So if you want to to come across as somebody who's kind of weak,
• 21:45
  then that was very quick, rapid, quick fire, sharp, snappy
• 21:48
  movement, OK. What happens if you're a
• 21:50
  cheater? If you're a cheater then you sit
• 21:53
  there with your paws crossed and you say I already know I'm the
• 21:55
  fastest, I don't need to. Run, yeah.
• 21:57
  But when you do run, when you do run, you run.
• 21:59
  Then you give it. Yeah.
• 22:01
  I love looking into the animal Kingdom for cues on behavior.
• 22:04
  And I kind of see, I sometimes see us, you know, we are
• 22:07
  animals. But I really do see it.
• 22:08
  It's almost like I've grown up South Africa.
• 22:10
  So I think of the jungle a lot, you know, and people having the
• 22:13
  territories like a lion and then you've got the lionesses and
• 22:16
  they're guarding. And if another lion dares go in
• 22:19
  and take those resources. And there's the big argument,
• 22:22
  you know, and then there's rank and all that.
• 22:25
  It's it's just everyone protective of their little slice
• 22:28
  of whatever it is they've got. And like I see a corporate work
• 22:31
  environment is that. It's.
• 22:32
  Totally the same, isn't it? If you want to know, if you want
• 22:35
  to get really, really good at body language and the two things
• 22:38
  you should watch are animals and children, because animals are
• 22:43
  great because they, you know you, you can see when an animal
• 22:47
  is relaxed or not purely by how they hold themselves.
• 22:51
  We've got this great big vulnerable area.
• 22:54
  And when we are feeling vulnerable, we'll cover it up.
• 22:57
  We'll fold our arms, we'll pull a pushing in, or we'll.
• 23:00
  Yeah, we'll go small. In the way, yeah, we'll shrink
• 23:02
  down, we'll do our. I saw you sitting like this, so
• 23:05
  you must be very. Comfortable are you usually a
• 23:08
  bigger, bigger giveaway is actually the feet.
• 23:09
  So if your feet are like kind of right out there, then you're
• 23:12
  really relaxed. You're.
• 23:13
  Tucked. Right under the chair then.
• 23:15
  Well, I'm doing my microphone madness.
• 23:17
  OK. Yeah.
• 23:18
  Well, similar kind of thing, so, but yeah.
• 23:21
  Confident. It's it's still something that
• 23:24
  you know the the kind of fatal position of curling up is
• 23:27
  generally. Any smaller and like this and.
• 23:29
  Yeah and if somebody's more confident then there will be
• 23:32
  wider and taking up space and you know the the this man
• 23:36
  spreading thing has been doing the the rounds now I.
• 23:38
  Found myself doing. I went, I had a guest here just
• 23:42
  before who we won't say it now, but yes.
• 23:44
  And there was something that the guest said and it made it really
• 23:47
  affected me. Like I was really sad and like,
• 23:49
  totally, like I've taken shocked.
• 23:51
  And I just found myself just, yeah, I went like this.
• 23:54
  And then I was like, oh, you've got your hand in front of your
• 23:57
  face at the bottom. But yeah, I felt it.
• 24:00
  Just you. Know that shows the the level of
• 24:02
  empathy that you have as so you you're not just listening to
• 24:06
  what's being said, you're actually processing it as if
• 24:09
  you're almost. Living it, but it's very
• 24:11
  distracting when you're processing.
• 24:13
  Things too much? It's very distracting.
• 24:15
  I've got to stick to the script and I'll get taken off track.
• 24:19
  OK, so when someone we spoke about this a little bit,
• 24:22
  someone's not saying anything at all.
• 24:24
  You ask them a question, they're silent.
• 24:28
  How do you interpret that then? Again, depending on the
• 24:31
  situation, if it is a scenario like we talked about with the
• 24:34
  shampoo bottle and somebody silent, then it stands a chance.
• 24:36
  It's probably them use use your shampoo.
• 24:39
  There are other other times where people was like, I don't
• 24:44
  know, and therefore I'm not going to say anything or even
• 24:47
  more so I do know and that's my reason for keeping quiet because
• 24:52
  I don't want to say it was Bob, yeah, or whoever.
• 24:55
  Yeah, that, that that can happen.
• 24:58
  OK, 30 minute credibility screen, let's let's go through
• 25:04
  it. How do you separate signal from
• 25:08
  noise? Substance is going to be the
• 25:12
  main thing here with listen to how much the person is actually
• 25:18
  telling you with regards to are you getting information that is,
• 25:25
  you know, credible information or are you just getting a lot of
• 25:28
  fluff with information peppered in?
• 25:30
  And that's something where it depending on, on what, what you
• 25:35
  want from the conversation. And we, we actually did some
• 25:38
  training on this for, for a while about when it was buying
• 25:41
  time. And there's a friend of mine
• 25:43
  from MI 6, he could talk to you for three or four hours and not
• 25:46
  say a word. It's absolutely brilliant.
• 25:49
  You know it not when I say not say a word.
• 25:50
  Yeah, not give away. But there'll just be nothing of
• 25:53
  any sense. And you, you, you'll be there
• 25:55
  for ages, listening with intent, thinking there must be something
• 25:57
  coming. It's not.
• 25:58
  There's nothing happening. You're not getting anywhere.
• 26:02
  OK, OK. So in terms of what people say,
• 26:04
  linguistic red flags, are there some words, some some things
• 26:10
  people say that's automatically like?
• 26:12
  Yeah, a lot of, so I, I was taught statement analysis by the
• 26:16
  creator of it, which is absolutely fantastic.
• 26:19
  And, and it, it's, I'll give you the, the kind of the basics of
• 26:23
  it. But a lot of the time what you
• 26:26
  want to know, the information is either in the statement or
• 26:29
  missing from the statement. And that's the way you need to
• 26:31
  ask yourself what that person means.
• 26:34
  So for example, you could say to somebody, you know, you're
• 26:38
  coming to the room and you say, hey, my wallet's gone missing.
• 26:40
  Have you had it? And they might turn around and
• 26:43
  reply with something like, I haven't even seen your wallet or
• 26:45
  I don't know where you keep your wallet.
• 26:48
  OK. That's not a no.
• 26:49
  They haven't denied taking your wallet.
• 26:52
  Just because they don't know where you keep it doesn't mean
• 26:54
  say they haven't come across it. Just because they don't know
• 26:56
  where you normally keep it doesn't mean they haven't taken
• 26:58
  it. They've not answered the
• 26:59
  question in a way that satisfies the yeah, it pacifies the person
• 27:04
  asking, but it doesn't actually answer the question with a
• 27:06
  denial. And this is where you you need
• 27:09
  to kind of be a bit more astute with with what you're hearing
• 27:13
  and say, OK, did that answer actually answer my question or
• 27:17
  did it just pacify me? Is it just an answer?
• 27:19
  Because you would say I've not touched it.
• 27:21
  I've not literally not got anywhere near it, haven't seen
• 27:23
  it, haven't. Been so and that just grows in
• 27:26
  so many different ways you. Know, I love crime documentaries
• 27:30
  and things and I watch it and it's funny that with a with a
• 27:32
  criminal thing, they do slip around in that way when they're
• 27:36
  trying to lie and deny it and eventually it comes out that
• 27:38
  they've done this. But for behaviour.
• 27:41
  I'm fascinated by behaviour and communications and they do they
• 27:46
  do this what you were saying. Yeah, if you look at a lot of
• 27:49
  police statements, the the majority of them, over 90% of
• 27:53
  police statements have a pattern when it comes to deception.
• 27:56
  And if somebody's telling the truth, it'll be about 25% pre
• 28:01
  incident, 50% of the incident itself and about 25% post
• 28:06
  incident. Now if somebody's been
• 28:08
  deceptive, it'll be about 90% pre incident, about 5% with the
• 28:13
  incident, 5%. Rapidly Oh, I'm going to watch
• 28:16
  the crime things again and I'm going to analyse.
• 28:18
  Inherently, we don't want to lie.
• 28:21
  People don't like lying. They.
• 28:22
  Know, yeah. Yeah, so.
• 28:24
  It takes a lot of energy. Exactly.
• 28:25
  Oh, it certainly does, you know, and and consuming the cortisol
• 28:28
  produces on. Both.
• 28:29
  Oh, it's ridiculous. Liars tend to put it right up
• 28:31
  until the various as long as they possibly can.
• 28:34
  Then when they have to actually tell the lie, they'll quickly
• 28:37
  get it out and then move on and wrap it up and that's it and job
• 28:39
  done. That's why I do think, you know,
• 28:41
  with I've never understood liars, you know, like, OK,
• 28:45
  everyone lies is what the private investigator guy that
• 28:50
  Michael called the private investigator, he said to me, I
• 28:53
  questioned him. I was like, come on, because now
• 28:54
  everyone lies. I was like, OK, humble get back
• 28:56
  into my but, but I, you know, like even growing up in things
• 29:00
  like if someone didn't want to be in a relationship, why
• 29:03
  couldn't they just tell the person I don't want to be in a
• 29:06
  relationship? I know that it's hard, but lying
• 29:08
  is harder. It takes much more effort, no?
• 29:12
  And again, depending on every situation you have got, let's
• 29:17
  just take for example an average couple.
• 29:20
  I'm going to say the man cheats because that's what women love
• 29:22
  to hear. That they want.
• 29:23
  Sorry. The man cheats.
• 29:25
  The man cheats and instead of like, you know, kind.
• 29:27
  Of he doesn't tell her. He doesn't tell her she suspects
• 29:30
  something, but maybe he's cheated and thought I've made a
• 29:33
  massive mistake. I don't want to split up.
• 29:36
  I realize what I've done and I want to stay with my other half.
• 29:39
  Yes. So therefore, you know, he's not
• 29:41
  going to he's not going to tell that he's not going to risk.
• 29:43
  To never say you. Realize he's made a mistake and
• 29:46
  that's it. You know, on other occasions, it
• 29:48
  could just be down to the fact that they don't come to hurt the
• 29:52
  other person's feelings so much that they'd rather put
• 29:54
  themselves through misery than actually the confrontation and.
• 29:58
  I again, I didn't think about it like that because I just think,
• 30:02
  well, I would think, would you not feel yeah, better and then
• 30:08
  would be more of an equal relationship and a fair
• 30:11
  relationship because that's also cheating, because then you're
• 30:14
  cheating that person into being with you.
• 30:16
  So that's even worse because they're not with you knowing who
• 30:19
  you really are or what you've done.
• 30:21
  And if they still accept you despite you doing all that well,
• 30:24
  then that's great. They've accepted you and you can
• 30:26
  live free and be free of your. You know, I don't know.
• 30:30
  I just. It's.
• 30:31
  Yeah. Yeah, I suppose it all depends
• 30:34
  on the person and their upbringing and, and kind of, you
• 30:37
  know, what's worked for them or what hasn't worked for them in
• 30:39
  the past. And this is because people are
• 30:42
  creatures of habits and patterns.
• 30:44
  And if we've done certain things two or three times and in the
• 30:48
  past, it's it's ended up in, in resulting in negativity for us.
• 30:51
  We will try everything to avoid that in future relationships.
• 30:55
  Yeah, I think, yeah, yeah. OK.
• 30:59
  Where do people most often over interpret queues and then make
• 31:04
  false assumptions? When they're looking for them.
• 31:08
  And this is this is something that I can speak from experience
• 31:10
  with a particular case I had with industrial espionage.
• 31:15
  And I was called in over money that was getting going missing
• 31:20
  from the company accounts. And they did a lot of
• 31:22
  preliminary interviews that were recorded.
• 31:25
  And the recordings were sent to me.
• 31:27
  And the, the very first interviews were just a very
• 31:29
  basic, who are you? Where do you work?
• 31:33
  You know, what did you have access to these accounts, blah,
• 31:35
  blah, blah. And that was it.
• 31:36
  And it was just OK. Then the second lot of
• 31:39
  recordings were a little bit more in depth, but not, you
• 31:42
  know, not kind of interrogation level.
• 31:45
  And the recordings were sent to me to analyse and I sat through
• 31:48
  hours and hours and hours. And there was one particular one
• 31:51
  where I saw a lady and I thought she's doing something and I
• 31:56
  don't think she was doing it on the first video.
• 31:59
  So I went back to the first video and she wasn't in the
• 32:01
  second video. Every time she spoke, she'd do
• 32:03
  that. And I thought normally kind of
• 32:05
  covering the mouth and that kind of thing is usually a way of
• 32:09
  saying I don't want to. The truth again.
• 32:11
  So something that to me, I thought that's interesting.
• 32:15
  She wasn't doing it the first time.
• 32:16
  She was doing. It the very time.
• 32:18
  So yeah, OK. And I called mom and I said
• 32:20
  please have this lady in a room. I'm gonna come in and have a
• 32:23
  chat to her. And I just wanna know, you know?
• 32:25
  And I watched the video again and again, and I convinced
• 32:28
  myself that there was all the tells that were right.
• 32:31
  OK, so you can yourself. You know what I'm saying?
• 32:34
  To you about clusters, Yeah. You know this is the thing that
• 32:36
  one tell alone was pretty strong, but when I started
• 32:39
  looking for the other. Founders.
• 32:41
  I started seeing them and, and so I, I went in and I realized
• 32:45
  the mistake I'd made because the first video was taken in the
• 32:50
  winter time. The second video was taken
• 32:52
  earlier on in the year, coming towards spring.
• 32:55
  And by the time I got to the third video, we were almost in
• 32:58
  the summer. And I walked in and the lady
• 33:00
  looked at me. She said really showed.
• 33:02
  The pollen kept really high and she was rubbing her nose and I
• 33:04
  realized exactly what I'd done. OK.
• 33:09
  And that's something that I hadn't.
• 33:10
  Taken. You don't think she was doing
• 33:12
  that because she thought she's called in for it?
• 33:14
  No. Definitely not.
• 33:16
  No, I think you would know anyway.
• 33:18
  Nose was bright red like Rudolph and, and, and I'd give myself a
• 33:22
  serious talking to her that day. I mean, it was a long, long time
• 33:24
  ago and I was still very green and I realised, you know, that
• 33:28
  if, if. It's a good lesson.
• 33:30
  Oh yeah, definitely. You know if you look for it,
• 33:31
  you'll find it. OK, you know those lie detector
• 33:33
  machine things, Do they work? Not in the way people think they
• 33:37
  do so they they detect stress, not not deception.
• 33:43
  I would be permanently failing though, even even when I'm just
• 33:47
  like baseline, you know? It's just the, the IT, it
• 33:50
  basically measures spikes in stress levels and, and, and of
• 33:55
  course, because lying is stressful and it has the same
• 33:59
  kind of physiological reactions on yeah in the body.
• 34:03
  So therefore, if the stress levels go up at a particular
• 34:05
  question, it causes the the. But that, that that's so fair
• 34:09
  for people that are highly strung and stressed out, like
• 34:12
  all the time. And even the concept of a lie
• 34:14
  detector, you think someone's putting the thing that's so
• 34:17
  stressful. Yeah.
• 34:19
  And fail everything. So the, the thing to remember
• 34:21
  here is you're not trying to beat the machine.
• 34:23
  You're, you know, or even you're not even like kind of competing
• 34:26
  with the machine as it were. It's the person operating the
• 34:29
  machine that you have to be more conscious of, not.
• 34:33
  What are they doing? They're going to be watching you
• 34:36
  pre interview, post interview and during the interview.
• 34:39
  And so there's a friend of mine who worked Guantanamo Bay post
• 34:42
  911 and she used to get more information from the detainees
• 34:47
  walking to the interrogation room and walking from the
• 34:50
  interrogation room than she ever did in the interrogation room.
• 34:53
  Wow. Because I want to know.
• 34:55
  I want to know what she sees. It was a side by sidewalk which
• 34:58
  was very unofficial, very relaxed, very casual and they,
• 35:01
  they just felt more comfortable. So therefore they felt, you
• 35:04
  know, anything I'm saying here. I'm all right here you.
• 35:06
  Know and and of course that that whole level of comfort that she
• 35:09
  provided on the way to the interrogation room and then of
• 35:11
  course you'd get in there start the whole process off and then.
• 35:14
  Yeah, Then you get a bit nervous.
• 35:15
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting.
• 35:19
  OK, so what's a telltale sign of a lie?
• 35:23
  Like really solid. Are you going to say blink rate?
• 35:26
  Maybe blink rate? Blink rate will be because it's
• 35:28
  probably one of the most accurate ones because of the
• 35:30
  stress levels in a lie. But there is no definitive kind
• 35:37
  of Pinocchio effect where you can say they did this, so
• 35:40
  therefore they're lied. But looking to them.
• 35:42
  Yeah. Certain was a.
• 35:44
  Level. Oh, yeah.
• 35:45
  So that I actually Jews, yeah. I mean, again, that that varies
• 35:49
  with different people. So again, not everybody goes to
• 35:52
  the same place. And this is where it went so
• 35:55
  wrong for the Pentagon. But you'll have to again ask
• 35:59
  that person questions to be able to establish where do they go to
• 36:02
  recall memories? Where do they go to create?
• 36:04
  Memories. So if I was going to say
• 36:06
  anything at all, look for clusters and look for change.
• 36:10
  What's you know, once you've baselined a person and you found
• 36:13
  out what's normal for them, then if something happens that's not
• 36:17
  normal, you can say, OK, why doesn't necessarily mean it's a
• 36:20
  lie, but it does mean something's different.
• 36:22
  And then you can start asking why.
• 36:25
  Oh, this is getting. Yeah.
• 36:28
  Makes me want to ask a whole bunch of people questions to
• 36:31
  find out if they're lying. OK, so calm authority if you
• 36:37
  want to communicate that it's the not scattering vibe.
• 36:41
  You don't want to be the meerkat, the mouse that's
• 36:43
  running into the hole. No fast movements.
• 36:46
  What else? Just a level of authority that
• 36:54
  is going to allow you to take charge of the room by doing
• 36:58
  everything a little bit slower, whether it's talking slower,
• 37:02
  breathing slower, walking slower.
• 37:04
  And that can be in any scenario. If you are the person in the
• 37:08
  room that is kind of the most comfortable, then people are
• 37:13
  going to look at you with a different level of of kind of
• 37:16
  why is it that everybody else is coming here and grabbing a seat
• 37:19
  and trying to be, you know, kind of neat and tidy and prim and
• 37:22
  proper. And this person is coming here
• 37:24
  and they are so relaxed. It's almost like they're at
• 37:26
  home. And if you can be the most
• 37:28
  comfortable person in the room, then you've got.
• 37:32
  I understand the, the, the scatty thing and I understand
• 37:36
  the, you know, the slow down because when you get together,
• 37:38
  you're scattering about. However, there's also just well,
• 37:44
  like you can see with me, I'm very comfortable now.
• 37:47
  I'm completely relaxed, but I'm animated and I'm much more
• 37:50
  expressive and I'm I'm naturally I was born 1,000,000 miles an
• 37:54
  hour. Like I can't help it.
• 37:55
  I was born completely hyperactive.
• 37:57
  So I I find it very difficult to my baseline is not slow and calm
• 38:01
  and relaxed. My baseline is always, but you
• 38:05
  know, yeah. And I don't really know how to
• 38:07
  describe it. You're comfortable so if you see
• 38:09
  where you've got your posture, where you're sitting right now
• 38:12
  from like kind of you know, below the shoulders down to your
• 38:15
  hips, you know thighs area that's not really moving, you
• 38:18
  can say you can still be animated with your hand.
• 38:20
  Oh, your body's not moving And if on the other hand you're
• 38:23
  sitting there not going well, what I think is and fidgeting
• 38:26
  like this, then that would be a bit more concerned.
• 38:28
  So moving kind of your arms and your legs not so bad.
• 38:31
  But overall, if you're you're comfortable, you can still be
• 38:34
  animated and still be kind of SAT permanently planted in the
• 38:38
  seat as it were, without looking like you're.
• 38:40
  Confidently, that's. Happening, yeah.
• 38:42
  That's an interesting one. Yeah, that's an interesting 1.
• 38:47
  So what's the one habit? A little micro habit that
• 38:50
  instantly destroys your, well, another person's perception of
• 38:55
  trust in you. Like, oh, you were trustworthy
• 38:57
  person, something that they're doing.
• 39:00
  Yes, yeah. I would again go back to that
• 39:02
  rapid movements. I know we have spoken about it,
• 39:04
  but it does kind of because people are more likely to trust
• 39:11
  people who are in control, who kind of can be themselves and
• 39:16
  are comfortable. That whole prey movement, you
• 39:19
  know, like, so you visualize the tigers cause of being very kind
• 39:22
  of, you know, relaxed as they walk through the jungle because
• 39:25
  they know there's not very many things that are going to come
• 39:27
  and attack them. That makes people feel huge
• 39:31
  levels of comfort. You know, they, they, they feel
• 39:34
  comfortable around you because they know you're in control.
• 39:37
  So when somebody is fidgeting and they're very short, rapid
• 39:41
  movements and whatever else, it makes people feel uneasy as
• 39:45
  well. You know, because of if you want
• 39:47
  to call it a vibe, you can, you know, there's lots of different
• 39:49
  ways of, of saying it, but they, they give off that vibe of being
• 39:51
  kind of, oh, we watched somebody looking at us very dodgy, kind
• 39:55
  of, you know, backstreet kind of deal, a kind of way I want to
• 39:59
  run away and constantly looking at their surroundings.
• 40:01
  And that, that's what makes people, you know, if you're
• 40:04
  constantly darting. Darting I love that.
• 40:07
  I love the scatty animal thing. It it actually makes complete,
• 40:11
  complete sense. So when you, you know, watch TV,
• 40:14
  you're watching news night, whatever it is you love island.
• 40:17
  I don't know what you watch at The Apprentice.
• 40:19
  Do you find yourself analysing people as to politicians, let's
• 40:22
  say? I think.
• 40:23
  Oh. Yeah.
• 40:25
  So I have done it for for different shows and news
• 40:26
  channels and that kind of thing, mainly over in the States more
• 40:28
  so. You have SO and you asked to do
• 40:31
  that. Yeah, and I think the the one
• 40:33
  the one in time I was actually on with with two other people.
• 40:36
  One was a a body language and and communication in non verbal
• 40:40
  cues expert. The other one was a FBI
• 40:43
  behavioural profiler, and we were looking at a particular
• 40:46
  case. And out of the three of us on
• 40:50
  this particular show, there was only myself that spotted that.
• 40:53
  The couple that were in the store at the time, nobody else
• 40:57
  had realized what they were doing.
• 40:59
  And when I pulled it up, I said, does anybody notice what they're
• 41:01
  doing in the store? And everyone was like, no,
• 41:04
  what's going on? I said, they're shoplifting.
• 41:07
  I'm like, oh, I said, but they did buy a block of cheese in a
• 41:11
  jar of coffee. I said, yeah, I said they did.
• 41:14
  I said, but if you watch when they walked in, they had four
• 41:17
  empty flat bags. And when they walked out, they
• 41:20
  got these bags absolutely filled.
• 41:21
  Yes. They paid for the coffee and the
• 41:23
  cheese. That was just a decoy, you know,
• 41:25
  And they walked out and they were.
• 41:27
  Oh, OK. We didn't notice that one.
• 41:31
  You're watching the details. Yeah.
• 41:34
  So if, you know, sometimes you have people that don't come
• 41:38
  across as very, their body languages isn't very good.
• 41:41
  Like, you know, they just, they let themselves down.
• 41:43
  But what they say is very credible and it makes sense.
• 41:46
  And you just sort of feel like, come on, you know, all the other
• 41:49
  way around. You know, they might have great
• 41:50
  body language, but then what they're saying is isn't great.
• 41:53
  So how do you coach people like that?
• 41:55
  Is there a way for them to marry up the, you know, if what
• 41:58
  they're saying is great, marry up the body language?
• 42:00
  Can you teach them? Yeah.
• 42:02
  I mean, it can be a tough degree.
• 42:04
  Yeah. I mean, if you look at going
• 42:05
  back to the elections when you got Bernie Sanders, bless him,
• 42:08
  who, you know, may have been a good candidate, I'm not going to
• 42:12
  get into politics. Yeah, I'm saying you may, you
• 42:14
  may not. I don't know.
• 42:15
  But the bottom line is when you see him sitting there in his
• 42:18
  chair with his mittens on like this, he he doesn't project
• 42:21
  authority. He's not somebody that you see
• 42:23
  as presidential material. So of course, you know, you
• 42:27
  would have to say to him, look, you know if you're going to be
• 42:29
  clinging onto the podium to keeping you to keep yourself
• 42:32
  upright, you're not going to be seeing it's.
• 42:34
  A good sign? So, you know, when, when people
• 42:38
  think of kind of world leaders and rulers, and I actually, I'm,
• 42:42
  I'm getting really, really annoyed with that term being
• 42:44
  used a lot because it's kind of flicking the narrative and
• 42:47
  people are starting to forget that they work for us.
• 42:50
  They are elected representatives of what we want.
• 42:53
  They've started the news and everyone started using the term
• 42:55
  leaders all over the place and rulers.
• 42:57
  And you know, like we're going back in time.
• 42:59
  But but the, you know, when you think of somebody who is meant
• 43:02
  to be representing your country, you want somebody strong and
• 43:06
  bold, you know, who can, who can kind of give that persona off,
• 43:10
  you know, and, and that's where your body language comes in.
• 43:14
  You want somebody who you know looks comfortable going we've
• 43:19
  got there. Yeah, yeah, who sits
• 43:21
  comfortably. I do watch, you know, watch the
• 43:24
  politicians when they interact with each other.
• 43:26
  There's a bit of a power game sometimes who shakes whose hand,
• 43:29
  which angle, the way that they sit, they try to command
• 43:34
  presence in the room. And sometimes there's
• 43:36
  competition with who's the the VIP in the room.
• 43:40
  And it's, it's also very. It makes one uncomfortable to
• 43:45
  see when there's a difficult conversation between the two
• 43:47
  politicians and you can see one rising depression and the voice
• 43:51
  goes up and the scatty mouse vibes start happening and you
• 43:54
  think, oh, you've got together, Come on, You know, you can kind
• 43:57
  of see it slipping. It's quite.
• 44:00
  And and this is where you, you, you know, when in these
• 44:03
  situations you need to do in the intelligence school ICBM, which
• 44:06
  the military guys when I was intercontinental ballistic
• 44:09
  missile, but it's actually instant calm breath method
• 44:12
  instant. Calm.
• 44:12
  Breath. Yeah, you can look at double in,
• 44:16
  hold it and let it go and that just kind of resets you
• 44:18
  momentarily. There's a couple of different
• 44:21
  ways of doing it, but that's that's one of.
• 44:22
  Them No, come on, let's learn it when you're under pressure.
• 44:25
  You feeling it? Yeah.
• 44:26
  So depending on what? You do what you.
• 44:28
  Do what the situation is you can, you can do the the box
• 44:30
  breathing or the it's I think it's in for in for seven, hold
• 44:35
  for five, out for 8. So it's 75 out.
• 44:37
  So you go in, hold. That's a long one.
• 44:50
  Yeah. And that's it.
• 44:51
  And that quick one that you do just like.
• 44:53
  That's fucking AA AA double. Yeah, like a really deep.
• 44:57
  Yeah, 2 quick snatches of breath in.
• 44:59
  You can do that through the mouth.
• 45:00
  I like that. I like that because it
• 45:01
  immediately snaps you out of that silly, you know, going down
• 45:04
  that rabbit hole, literally the rabbit hole behavior.
• 45:07
  I had a a podcast earlier with the lady who's a public speaking
• 45:12
  expert, really, really done it so many years.
• 45:14
  And she also spoke about the importance of that, that whole
• 45:17
  thing breathing, you know, you about to go red or you're about
• 45:20
  to feel really uncomfortable moment.
• 45:22
  And she's just also the breathing.
• 45:24
  And to always do that, even if you're comfortable, just to
• 45:26
  prepare your your your brain, your lungs, your voice books,
• 45:31
  all those have to do the humming, you know, but yeah, but
• 45:35
  but these people under pressure and in serious position and
• 45:38
  anyone under breath, you know, in a meeting, someone asks you a
• 45:40
  question you don't really know. And it's like, how can you just
• 45:42
  quickly reset yourself? So you're saying a double breath
• 45:44
  in. Yeah.
• 45:45
  Double double intake of breath. Very sharp metal novels, but it
• 45:48
  has to be like, you know, one and then another, like almost
• 45:51
  instant and. Yeah, I love that because that's
• 45:53
  a quick, actionable, actionable thing that you can do.
• 45:58
  So what? What intelligence gathering
• 46:00
  skills translate best to, you know, leadership to sales?
• 46:05
  Because you've got this amazing knowledge, but not everyone's,
• 46:08
  you know? Yeah.
• 46:09
  Criminal so. That's a double answer to that
• 46:12
  question. In the sense of leadership and
• 46:13
  sales, I segregate a lot because.
• 46:16
  They are different, yeah. You have kind of two different
• 46:18
  worlds. So with with leadership in the
• 46:21
  sense of in the intelligence world, I mean, some of my
• 46:24
  assignments, one of my very, very first assignments, I was
• 46:27
  sat down and they said to me find out how the Russians are
• 46:31
  getting rail and information out of Korea.
• 46:34
  That was it. That was it.
• 46:35
  And I was like. What are you supposed to do?
• 46:38
  And I was like, OK, not much to go on.
• 46:40
  I didn't get any Aston Martins or exploding watches or X-ray.
• 46:42
  Speaking no James Bond. Gear, none of the none of the
• 46:45
  toys. I was just, you know, instead of
• 46:46
  got what you're still doing here.
• 46:49
  So I was like, OK then. And it took me two or three days
• 46:52
  to to to do it, to complete the assignment.
• 46:56
  But that's the level of kind of free hand, your hands.
• 46:59
  So it's very different to the military where you tell when to
• 47:01
  be, where to be housing, you know, you.
• 47:03
  Give specific you've got no guidance.
• 47:05
  Yeah, it's nothing. You, you, you have training, and
• 47:08
  they expect you to rely on what you've learned to be able to
• 47:11
  just go out, do your job and come back.
• 47:13
  So that in itself sets up a leadership level of right, I
• 47:17
  have to do this for myself. And this is where you know your
• 47:21
  destination and however you get there is, is down to you.
• 47:26
  So you have to be your own leader.
• 47:28
  And when you're your own leader, you can bring other people in
• 47:31
  that can help you. And they, if you bring them on
• 47:34
  board with the same level of enthusiasm, they want to get to
• 47:37
  the destination just as much as you do.
• 47:40
  If you're with the right team and you, you encourage them in
• 47:42
  the right way. Gosh, what?
• 47:44
  Training, do you get to do that? It's like, how often do I mean?
• 47:48
  It was good. And I suppose what I had to do,
• 47:51
  I had to reverse engineer it because, well, I thought, OK,
• 47:53
  well if I was going to get Ralgon intelligence out of
• 47:55
  Korea, how would I do it? So I thought, well, the first
• 47:58
  thing I'd do is I'd find myself a Ralgon expert.
• 48:01
  And unlike McDonald's workers, there's actually very few.
• 48:04
  So there's a very short list of people.
• 48:06
  Then you look at the Ralgon experts that have operated in
• 48:08
  Korea. Then you look at what they've
• 48:10
  done and the works they've done and whatever else.
• 48:12
  And I, I trolled through a lot of work and, and papers and
• 48:15
  publications and that kind of thing until eventually I found
• 48:18
  one that was published with a Russian co-author.
• 48:22
  And I was like, ah, now I might be onto something.
• 48:25
  Then I checked him out. Turns out he'd got toys to the
• 48:27
  Russian Embassy. And that was it.
• 48:29
  Just kind. Of all come together, that's why
• 48:30
  you're called an intelligence, because you need to be
• 48:33
  intelligent too and. That was it, yeah.
• 48:36
  Once it was all confirmed, that was it.
• 48:37
  I went back two or three days and I got the answer.
• 48:39
  I did most of it without leaving my living room and, and and got
• 48:42
  the assignment completed. So that's why they kept
• 48:46
  employing me, I think. That's why you've got all the
• 48:48
  books and people love them and you're on this podcast and
• 48:51
  you're, yeah, the genius, very, very intelligent.
• 48:53
  But yes, yes, thinking on your feet, thinking by yourself, not
• 48:56
  having anyone tell you what to do.
• 48:58
  You come up with a plan and step by step, execute.
• 49:01
  It's very. That's the, I mean leadership is
• 49:05
  it goes into the whole people skills when it comes to things
• 49:08
  like sales as well. This is where the two kind of do
• 49:11
  overlap because leadership is something that if you're just
• 49:15
  telling people what to do, then you're not a leader.
• 49:18
  If they don't literally share the same dream as you and want
• 49:22
  to get there at the same time, then then you're nothing other
• 49:25
  than a boss, you know? You're just telling.
• 49:27
  People telling them what to do and they don't like that either,
• 49:29
  do they? If you're in a situation where
• 49:32
  you've got a dream or a goal or an assignment that you want to
• 49:34
  achieve and whatever your destination is, whatever your
• 49:37
  goal is, the team that are around you are all equally
• 49:40
  wanting to get there. All excited when they find out
• 49:42
  that we've taken another the tips 2 steps forward or
• 49:45
  disappointed when something's knocked back a little bit.
• 49:48
  And if they're as involved and invested into reaching the goal
• 49:51
  as what you are, then you're doing something right as a
• 49:53
  leader. Oh.
• 49:55
  Wow. It seems obvious, but it's.
• 49:58
  Yeah, it's not the case in a lot of companies.
• 50:00
  But you do want to bring people with you.
• 50:02
  Yeah, That's why I think comms in general communication, if
• 50:06
  you're speaking to people and you're checking in along the
• 50:09
  way, you've got more of you stand, more of a chance of all
• 50:11
  that stuff. Yeah, I've just had a talk about
• 50:13
  that actually with the NHS. We're looking at like kind of
• 50:18
  insider threats and that kind of thing.
• 50:20
  And I said the problem is, and it's a drawing kind of epidemic
• 50:24
  really within the workforce now is what I've called the 5:00 to
• 50:28
  5:00 on Friday syndrome. And that's when it's 5:00 to
• 50:31
  5:00 on Friday and people are they're, they're switched off,
• 50:35
  they're ready for the week, they're ready to go.
• 50:37
  And whatever happens in the office, whether the phone rings
• 50:39
  or the printer explodes, whatever, they're just not
• 50:42
  bothered. It's a Monday morning problem.
• 50:44
  And that 5:00 to 5:00 on Friday syndrome is, is spreading to
• 50:48
  most days of the week. You know, it's, it's, it's going
• 50:50
  through lunch breaks and it's nearly home time and it, oh,
• 50:53
  it's. Horrible.
• 50:54
  Yeah. And and that kind of negativity
• 50:59
  can spread through an office in a workplace like wildfire.
• 51:01
  And that's when you know, if you, if you kill that kind of
• 51:05
  like I say, I'll use the word vibe again, if you kill that
• 51:07
  vibe. Yeah, it is a vibe.
• 51:09
  Yeah, totally, totally. It's a vibe.
• 51:11
  Cause a lot of problems. OK, another problem, hostile
• 51:14
  people, hostile personalities and they, they're everywhere.
• 51:17
  How do you deal with hostile toxic people?
• 51:20
  Like it's so difficult to avoid a lot of.
• 51:23
  People go down the route of of sometimes you.
• 51:25
  Can't. Yeah, I mean, there will always
• 51:28
  be hostile people in everything you do.
• 51:29
  And of course, you know, if if you go down the confrontational
• 51:33
  route of, you know, somebody says or does something that you,
• 51:37
  you know, they're, they're argumentative with you.
• 51:39
  A lot of people try to want to win the argument and they they
• 51:43
  to them, they see that as a win. Instead, what you need to do is
• 51:47
  look and say, OK, what why is this person in that predicament,
• 51:51
  in that situation being, you know, this way in the 1st place,
• 51:54
  what's going on in their life? And once you turn around and
• 51:58
  say, right, I, I think it's Winston Churchill actually said,
• 52:00
  I don't like that man. I must get to know him better.
• 52:04
  And that's something that once you start with somebody you
• 52:07
  don't like, you generally find that there.
• 52:10
  When you scratch the surface and get a little bit deeper and find
• 52:13
  out what they really like, it's not always exactly the same as
• 52:16
  what they portray. That's where you that's where
• 52:20
  you've got a better way of dealing with hostile people.
• 52:22
  And this is more long term than just the I.
• 52:25
  Think you're right, you know, I think you're so right and I
• 52:28
  think that when we say that someone is hostile or toxic,
• 52:32
  we're almost put in that label so that we don't have to deal
• 52:35
  with them and I can't However, you're absolutely correct that
• 52:40
  yeah, if you probably did go deeper, you'd find.
• 52:43
  More reason. It's an excuse we give
• 52:44
  ourselves. It's an excuse I don't want to.
• 52:46
  I don't. Want to deal with?
• 52:48
  It too much like effort. Too much effort is the thing.
• 52:51
  And that's the truth. So and that tells you more about
• 52:54
  yourself as a person because then you need to ask yourself,
• 52:57
  okay, so why aren't making the effort?
• 53:00
  Everybody can be a good Christian to all the good
• 53:03
  Christians, but can they be a good Christian or, but you know,
• 53:06
  whatever good person, good whatever to to the person who's
• 53:09
  maybe a little bit nasty or a little bit toxic or a little
• 53:12
  bit, you know, boisterous or whatever, you know, you, you,
• 53:16
  you shouldn't be able to. If you're picking and choosing
• 53:18
  the people you're being nice to, then does that really make you a
• 53:21
  nice person? Although I had a behavioural
• 53:27
  psychologist, Oxford professor come on and he was talking about
• 53:31
  Dunbar, Professor Dunbar. And he was saying how we have
• 53:33
  to, our actual networks that we maintain and have quality ratios
• 53:38
  with are very, very small. And you know, there's zones, you
• 53:41
  know, and there's like a zone 1 and then a zone 2.
• 53:43
  And it's, it's a huge investment to, to these people that we have
• 53:48
  in our closest network. And normally if one comes in,
• 53:52
  another one has to go out. So maybe there's also an element
• 53:55
  of that where you think I only have capacity for that?
• 53:59
  Sometimes, yes, but there are also ways because as, as humans,
• 54:04
  we are generally lazy and we will look at what's in our
• 54:09
  interest. Yeah.
• 54:10
  What does this person bring to the table for me?
• 54:13
  And once that particular person is not bringing as much to the
• 54:16
  table. And it doesn't necessarily have
• 54:18
  to be anything, you know, tangible.
• 54:20
  It could just be the fact that when you're around them, they
• 54:22
  make you feel good. Yeah.
• 54:24
  So if that person stops that, they might disappear into the
• 54:29
  background a little bit. And the best advice I was ever
• 54:32
  given by somebody when it come to keeping such, you know,
• 54:34
  managing larger networks of people is every week scroll to
• 54:38
  the bottom of your contacts list, whether it's WhatsApp or
• 54:41
  your text messages or whatever. And whoever's at the bottom,
• 54:44
  just send them a text saying something along the lines of,
• 54:47
  hey, haven't spoken to you in a while, just reaching out to see
• 54:50
  how things are now. Ask don't want anything from you
• 54:52
  just want to say hi. And that happens.
• 54:55
  You can do that with two or three people at the most, you
• 54:57
  know, maximum of like 5, but never any more than that.
• 55:00
  Otherwise you're just setting yourself up for more difficulty
• 55:04
  in managing more numbers. But generally one to two people
• 55:08
  do that and and you'll be surprised how many people come
• 55:10
  back and go, hey, yeah, nice to hear from you.
• 55:13
  And and that if you do that every time, that bottom number
• 55:16
  then gets to the top. You just keep that going and you
• 55:20
  kind of you can, you can then, you know, widen your circle.
• 55:24
  Did You Know? What I find about you is what
• 55:25
  you're you're an intelligence officer and you know all these
• 55:28
  things about people that the lies, you know how to, I mean,
• 55:30
  you couldn't manipulate people if you wanted to.
• 55:32
  I can see you. You don't.
• 55:34
  I mean, if you had to have a goal for for the greater good,
• 55:36
  you definitely know how to do that.
• 55:37
  But what I'm getting from you is that you're very you like
• 55:40
  people. You're open to people despite
• 55:43
  knowing all that stuff. It's like, surely that would
• 55:47
  have made you think. You would think so, especially
• 55:50
  with some of the people I've met and I've mentioned really
• 55:53
  horrible people, but at the same time, to do my job.
• 55:57
  There's a trope in Hollywood where, you know, assets and
• 56:02
  informants and that kind of thing are treated dreadfully.
• 56:05
  And that's actually not the case.
• 56:07
  We, if we want, if you can imagine what we do for a living,
• 56:11
  we go over to a foreign country, speak to somebody, find
• 56:16
  somebody, target them deliberately.
• 56:18
  And then we have to talk them into doing something that's not
• 56:21
  in their best interest, could get them killed or in prison for
• 56:24
  life or even their family killed or imprisoned, ask them to
• 56:27
  betray their country, commit treason and steal secret
• 56:30
  information. So you know, that's a big ask.
• 56:34
  So if you're, if you're doing that for somebody, you can't do
• 56:37
  that and just say, look, I'll buy you a beer if you will.
• 56:40
  You have to really get to know that person.
• 56:42
  You have to really get to know their triggers, their levers,
• 56:45
  their personality. And you can't get to that level
• 56:49
  of intimacy with a person without a huge level of empathy
• 56:54
  towards them. You need a real genuine
• 56:57
  relationship. It can't be done on a fake
• 56:59
  relationship. And once you've got that
• 57:01
  relationship and it is real, even though they don't even know
• 57:04
  your real name, the bond is real.
• 57:07
  They will help you out and, and get what you want.
• 57:10
  So but the the the caveat is you must always deliver.
• 57:15
  Yeah, I was going to ask you, does that feel, Does that feel
• 57:18
  manipulative? Dare I say that word?
• 57:19
  But does it because you've got a goal?
• 57:21
  Yeah, it's a degree. But the The thing is, is once
• 57:25
  you've found out what motivates that person, and it could be any
• 57:28
  number of thing, it could be their child might need health
• 57:31
  care that they can't get or afford.
• 57:33
  They might just purely be greed and money, you know, it could be
• 57:37
  any number of things, but you must deliver.
• 57:38
  Because once you've kind of made that promise, you know, whether
• 57:41
  it's a British passports and citizenship or whatever it is,
• 57:44
  you know that that relationship is completely ruined if you say,
• 57:49
  if you keep dangling a carrot, but don't actually ever let them
• 57:51
  get it. You don't ever let them get it,
• 57:55
  OK. You know, with Behave learning
• 57:58
  about behaviour, do you think I mean most, do you think most
• 58:04
  people are good at detecting behaviour patterns in others?
• 58:07
  Do you think that they're aware most majority or not really?
• 58:12
  The majority of people are without knowing.
• 58:15
  It's more of a subconscious level because.
• 58:17
  Right. So they are actually, yeah.
• 58:19
  It's one of those things where if you ask, people who have the
• 58:25
  answer to something in hindsight, will turn around and
• 58:27
  say, I knew something was wrong. I knew something was off.
• 58:29
  I knew they'll always say afterwards, I couldn't quite
• 58:31
  tell what it was, but I knew there was something wrong about
• 58:33
  that person or wrong about what he said, or I knew they were
• 58:36
  lying. Yeah.
• 58:36
  So they, they, they do know, even if they don't know how they
• 58:40
  know the majority of the time they get a good feeling that
• 58:43
  says something's not right. So they might not know what it
• 58:46
  is or exactly what they're looking for, but they do know.
• 58:49
  They have seen it. But also then it might be even
• 58:51
  another layer because you might, you might not want to be talking
• 58:55
  about something or something happened and made you
• 58:57
  uncomfortable. Then you know that they might
• 59:00
  know and they detect. And then then you know that they
• 59:03
  know. And then they know that you know
• 59:05
  that they know. And then.
• 59:06
  Yeah. Spirals, yeah.
• 59:08
  Although I don't know, that's why I'm asking, because I I
• 59:11
  sometimes do wonder how aware people.
• 59:14
  But you say that distinctively, yeah.
• 59:17
  You, you, if somebody's very nervous to talk to somebody
• 59:20
  about a particular topic and you know, they, they need to
• 59:24
  approach that person, sometimes they can, you know, kind of give
• 59:28
  off that feeling themselves. And, and you know what I'm
• 59:31
  saying to you about, you know, if you look for something,
• 59:33
  you'll find it. And therefore they can convince
• 59:35
  themselves sometimes that there is something there when there
• 59:38
  wasn't, you know, because of that what they are projecting
• 59:41
  themselves. OK, So a lot of takeaways from
• 59:45
  this. I think the, the thing that it's
• 59:48
  such an all, there's two very easy things for me to to take
• 59:51
  away from this, this cattiness of the mouse and the, the, the
• 59:55
  prey, you know, animals, the meerkats, all of those guys, the
• 59:59
  way that they behave. It is, it is pretty obvious.
• 1:00:03
  And then the other one is the breathing thing to help.
• 1:00:06
  But also I'll just take the whole animal Kingdom.
• 1:00:08
  I'm going to go back to I find this a fascinating thing, but
• 1:00:11
  you know how? Like you were saying, like the
• 1:00:13
  lions and they walk and they've got the paws and they're all
• 1:00:15
  like this and the cheetah just doesn't have to prove itself.
• 1:00:18
  But when it wants to run, it will just and it's it's run.
• 1:00:21
  But then don't you think like that sometimes humans, that's
• 1:00:27
  going to sound really weird. I'm going to just just bear with
• 1:00:30
  me. But I almost think like, you
• 1:00:32
  know, in nature, you have like symbiotic relationships where
• 1:00:34
  you might have a tree and then it's got a plant that grows on
• 1:00:37
  it. And then that plant would
• 1:00:38
  otherwise never be able to get the light.
• 1:00:40
  So it grows with a tree. And if it's symbiotic, it
• 1:00:42
  doesn't hurt the tree. The tree is happy.
• 1:00:44
  You know, you have those little fish that swim with sharks and
• 1:00:46
  they clean their teeth and that kind of symbiotic relation.
• 1:00:49
  And then you've got the parasitic relationships and then
• 1:00:51
  the ones that, you know, viruses and those, but then they might
• 1:00:54
  get too clever and then they land up, killing their, they're
• 1:00:57
  too aggressive and then end up destroying their, their source.
• 1:01:03
  And then you have the chameleons, you know, the ones
• 1:01:05
  that then they change and they can be whatever you want them to
• 1:01:07
  be. I just think there's so many of
• 1:01:12
  like our personalities, our behavior.
• 1:01:13
  And I sometimes look, and I know this isn't going to sound crazy.
• 1:01:17
  So I think you're a chameleon, you're a parrot, you're a
• 1:01:21
  cheater, you know, and I sort of, can I say what I think I am.
• 1:01:25
  Yeah, girlfriend. What?
• 1:01:27
  And I kind of think like I'm the lioness, you know?
• 1:01:31
  I sometimes think of myself like it because then I like my
• 1:01:33
  little. I'm protective.
• 1:01:35
  Yeah, fiercely protective. But I also like to hunt.
• 1:01:38
  You know, the lion will defend its territory, but I like to
• 1:01:40
  hunt. So I sort of think of myself
• 1:01:43
  like that. But yeah, we put silly things in
• 1:01:45
  it. But what do you think?
• 1:01:46
  Yeah. So I think you're right.
• 1:01:48
  I mean, if if you look at the fact that the the the lioness
• 1:01:51
  primarily above all in anything else, it's about looking after
• 1:01:55
  the Cubs. So that's the first.
• 1:01:57
  Thing totally. It's the one that that goes with
• 1:02:00
  with something, but that I could tell you had something that you
• 1:02:04
  were holding back then from when I said that I'm not going to,
• 1:02:05
  I'm not going. To take.
• 1:02:08
  It. Come on, come on, come on.
• 1:02:09
  So let's let's let's. Let's check.
• 1:02:12
  Yeah. So when, when when you spoke
• 1:02:14
  just. And yeah, when I said to you
• 1:02:16
  about like kind of. I'm not really nude.
• 1:02:18
  Sometimes there's something that happens.
• 1:02:20
  Yeah. Yeah, it does stand out.
• 1:02:21
  Yeah. So when I said about protecting
• 1:02:23
  the cousin, you went, yeah, and that's kind of compressed lip
• 1:02:26
  for a minute that. Well, for a moment that is
• 1:02:29
  generally when somebody agrees with you, but they're holding
• 1:02:31
  something back. So it might be truthful.
• 1:02:33
  You're totally right. You're totally right.
• 1:02:35
  Because I'll tell you something, I walked off The Apprentice
• 1:02:39
  publicly in front of and I am aware that this is a platformer
• 1:02:44
  stage and I walked off. I didn't like the whole process.
• 1:02:50
  You know, it wasn't for me. And I wasn't able to speak to my
• 1:02:54
  family in the way that I wanted to.
• 1:02:57
  And I am not going to do things for my career at the expense of
• 1:03:03
  my children. That's just not going to work,
• 1:03:06
  you know? And I came out publicly saying
• 1:03:09
  this and it was a big second. It's a very difficult thing to
• 1:03:14
  get over, you know, saying something like this in public
• 1:03:18
  and then you judged and whatever.
• 1:03:19
  But also at the same time, I am like that.
• 1:03:22
  That's just how I work. And I am a mummy cub and I
• 1:03:26
  protect my cublings and and now that they're growing up and
• 1:03:30
  everything, it changes things for me.
• 1:03:31
  But yeah, that's so, you know, you've you've unpacked quite a
• 1:03:38
  especially that it was so public a thing in my life.
• 1:03:40
  That was a sole point. Like it wasn't, you know, it
• 1:03:43
  wasn't an easy thing. Sorry, didn't mean to, didn't
• 1:03:46
  mean. To no, I'm glad you did, because
• 1:03:48
  it's just you do. It's correct, you know.
• 1:03:51
  So sometimes, like I said, I don't usually watch people and
• 1:03:54
  assess them, but sometimes, you know, I will.
• 1:03:56
  Spot the kids. Oh, hang on that.
• 1:03:58
  Yeah, that that was a little indication and, you know, I saw
• 1:04:01
  that. But yeah, you know, the the
• 1:04:03
  whole kind of looking after the Cubs, it is, you know, like a
• 1:04:06
  primary objective for a lioness. But then the hunting side of it
• 1:04:10
  as well is also something that you've got that that is
• 1:04:15
  providing for the Cubs as well as yourself, keeping yourself
• 1:04:17
  sustained. And then you've also got the
• 1:04:19
  fact that it's the defence as well.
• 1:04:21
  So, but what I can say is that there is also a pack and there
• 1:04:26
  are other people in the pack that you have a very select few
• 1:04:29
  kind of friends or associates that you know.
• 1:04:32
  There is a pack and I'm fiercely protective of the pack.
• 1:04:35
  And there's also the hunt is so much fun, you know?
• 1:04:39
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:04:40
  And I think that's why you like this.
• 1:04:42
  I think you like finding guests, different guests and exciting
• 1:04:45
  guests of you know, kind of who who can I have on who's going to
• 1:04:48
  really kind of and you won't. Believe this, you know, but I've
• 1:04:51
  got a team that that do the, the outreach thing and I, I, I
• 1:04:55
  direct them very carefully about what I want and whatever.
• 1:04:58
  And, and when I originally got this team, they would, they
• 1:05:01
  would do a LinkedIn outreach. It was very, very corporate.
• 1:05:04
  They've never done podcasting in this way with these kind of
• 1:05:07
  guests and it was very serious very this and I had to take them
• 1:05:11
  from doing that and train them and I said, listen, you are
• 1:05:15
  going hunting. That is you need to bring home
• 1:05:20
  the guests that are like this. That is the goal, you know, And
• 1:05:25
  when I sort of put it into the head, so it's always like, I
• 1:05:28
  suppose you become what you think you are.
• 1:05:31
  What animal would you be then? Me I I have an affinity with
• 1:05:35
  wolves for some reason. I love wolves.
• 1:05:38
  I was born in wolves. Just stick wonderful pictures.
• 1:05:40
  That was probably all originated because the local football team
• 1:05:43
  being wolves and that kind of thing.
• 1:05:44
  But I've always just had this real kind of fascination with
• 1:05:48
  wolves. Now, whether it's the the kind
• 1:05:49
  of lone wolf kind of, you know, persona or what, I don't know.
• 1:05:54
  But yeah, it's just it's always been something that I've had
• 1:05:58
  this in my mind for many, many years.
• 1:06:00
  The lion might be the king of the jungle, but the lion will
• 1:06:04
  still be trained in the circus and the wolf won't.
• 1:06:07
  And that's why I kind of like the the wolf.
• 1:06:10
  And on that note, thank you so much.
• 1:06:13
  This has been a like mind I can't even describe like a mind
• 1:06:18
  expansion exercise, you know, of, of self-awareness of it's
• 1:06:23
  just interesting. I find all of these topics and
• 1:06:25
  I'm going to be, oh, thank you, reading your books.
• 1:06:28
  Well, hope and find it beneficial and yeah.
• 1:06:32
  How could they not? Well, if they want to know more
• 1:06:35
  about if you don't mind me doing a quick plug, then that'd.
• 1:06:37
  Be great, go for it. Plug plug actually.
• 1:06:39
  Doing for the first time ever. Yeah, I'm doing spy intelligence
• 1:06:43
  officer training from all the world's leading agencies.
• 1:06:47
  What does that mean? What is that?
• 1:06:48
  So it's the psychological training given to intelligence
• 1:06:51
  officers with everything from mental resilience right up to
• 1:06:53
  strategic thinking. So all the different kind of,
• 1:06:56
  and I hate to use the term thinking outside the box, but
• 1:06:58
  that that kind of thinking outside the box, the, the whole
• 1:07:02
  not, not just mental resilience, but the kind of the, the way an
• 1:07:07
  intelligence officer is trained to think differently to most
• 1:07:11
  other people. We've got all the world's
• 1:07:12
  leading intelligence agencies and military guys coming in.
• 1:07:15
  CIA, MI 6, KGB, Mossag. We've got the.
• 1:07:18
  Local. First time this has ever
• 1:07:21
  happened coming down in Dorset in an army barracks that we've
• 1:07:25
  had for a couple of days and we we've got the tickets on sale.
• 1:07:28
  In an army barracks, literally. That's cool.
• 1:07:30
  That's. Really nice.
• 1:07:31
  Yeah, we've got some brilliant guest speakers coming in and
• 1:07:34
  this training has never been offered to the public before.
• 1:07:37
  I don't know if it's ever going to be offered again.
• 1:07:38
  It depends on the response. We've got some brilliant
• 1:07:41
  exhibitors coming down and showing some of the how.
• 1:07:43
  Many days is it? How does?
• 1:07:44
  Only over 2 days. It's 2 full days but. 27th and
• 1:07:47
  28th of October. 27th and 28th of October.
• 1:07:50
  Yeah. And this has never been done
• 1:07:52
  before, so I'm really hoping that it goes well.
• 1:07:54
  And yeah, we'll, we'll see whether the people like it or
• 1:07:57
  not. On the other hand, it might be
• 1:07:59
  down to the Home Office that might come down and say you're
• 1:08:01
  not allowed to do that again. Yeah, that's, I say, how much do
• 1:08:03
  you want everyone to learn? But that's a fascinating thing.
• 1:08:06
  It sounds really good. I'm going to look into it.
• 1:08:08
  Oh. Brilliant.
• 1:08:08
  Thank you. Well, the website is
• 1:08:09
  www.spyq.co.uk. Brilliant.
• 1:08:15
  Thank you. Thank you so much.
• 1:08:16
  Thank you.