Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / The Legacy Of Bob Marley & The Wailers [Episode 173]

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The Legacy Of Bob Marley & The Wailers [Episode 173] · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

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I think his message is universally appreciated, and not just his protest songs.
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He had a lot of songs about celebrating, songs about romance. He was
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a multi dimensional artist, but he was very skilled as sort of distilling the
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message to lyrics that were intelligent but very easily grasped and understood the message of
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whoever you are and whatever your background, you have just as much right to
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get as much out of life as anybody, whatever your economic or your ethnic
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background. That's something that's eternal. We're totally booked rock and roll. I
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mean, I'll leave you. You're reading little hens this, It's time to
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rock and roll, rocking roll, I totally booked. Welcome back to book
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Don Rock Podcasts for those about to read and rock online of bookd on rock
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dot com, where you can find every episode along with links to listening platforms,
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exclusive videos, blocks in the latest rock book releases. Author Richie Unterberger
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is this episode's guest. The new book is called Bob Marley and the Whalers,
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The Ultimate Illustrated History. Illustrated with photos and memorabilia from all phases of
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their journey. The book illuminates the lives and times of Bob Marley and the
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Whalers from their early sixties Jamaican scott beginnings to international stardom by the end of
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the seventies, right up to Bob Marley's untimely death in nineteen eighty one.
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It's all covered in this book, and we have the author Richie Unterberger to
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share some of what's inside. Make sure you visit the show notes page to
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hear a playlist of Bob Marley and the Whalers. To understand a person's character
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and the person that they become, we have to go back to our childhood
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and we know about Bob Marley's accomplishments as an adult. But where did that,
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as you write, that burning desire to better not just himself, but
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a lot of millions of others with similar disadvantages come from. Was his race,
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his nationality, his modest family assets. Did they have a lot to
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do with that? I think all those factors that you just mentioned did.
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And although he didn't make such a big deal out of it, he was
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of mixed race ancestry, and his father was white, quite a bit older
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than his mother, and his father did not have much to do with his
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upbringing. I would say was pretty irresponsible, and coming from that mixed race
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background, Bob may have never felt like he totally fit in with either certainly
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the white minority ruling class of Jamaica, but also even the black underclass,
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which was the majority, the overwhelming majority of the Jamaican population and by the
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people living there. He would have always been considered a person of color,
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but maybe he, because of that background, already felt something of an ouse
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status in addition to being one of the many underprivileged people of color in Jamaica,
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also feeling like he wasn't even entirely fitting in with the black population of
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Jamaica. That didn't really manifest itself, I think too much in his lyrics
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until maybe the very end of the sixties, when he'd already been recording for
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a half dozen years or so, but it became a big part of what
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he and the other original Whalers wrote and sang. The origins of the Whalers
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want to get to that that starts when Bob meets Bunny Livingston and Peter Tosh
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as teenagers. I believe they're all born around the mid forties, and they
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were not just inspired by the local Calypso music, but by the Black American
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vocal groups like Frankie Lyman and the Teenagers, the Platters and the Drifters.
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Were they hearing it on the radio? Because you're right about the radio and
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Jamaica being behind the time, So was it hard for them to have access
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to that music and those reds on the radio. I think that not just
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those guys, but anybody in Jamaica could hear a fair amount of the rhythm
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and blues, early soul music, early rock and roll from the United States,
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because Jamaica isn't that far from the States, and especially in the late
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fifties and early sixties, and especially at night, if a station from the
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southern part of the US had a strong signal, it could carry a pretty
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long way. So the stations in Miami and in Florida and New Orleans.
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The accounts vary as to how strongly you would have gotten the signal, but
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I think that it would have been heard. But also a lot of entrepreneurial
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Jamaicans, if they were able to go to the United States cities like New
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Orleans and Miami, they would buy singles, buy records, come back with
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them and play them at outdoor parties. Outdoor events. It came to be
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called sound systems when these sort of DJs would play the records they had they
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had gotten from the United States and the whalers, but certainly all young Jamaicans
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I think would have heard the music of the Action that you mentioned and Fats
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Domino, Little Richard, and a little later the Impressions led by Curtis Mayfield,
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who were definitely the biggest influence on the early whalers as far as their
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vocal harmonies. The young whalers fell under the tutelage of Joe Higgs, often
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called the father of reggae. Who is Joe Higgs And how important was he
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to Bob and the whalers? I think Joe Higgs was important to the whalers,
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both because he was sort of a mentor to them, an older guy
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who would go on to his own distinguished reggae music career as a recording artist.
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But at least Joe Higgs has said that although he could tell that the
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whalers had talent and they were just teenagers, they were sort of raw in
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the way that they hadn't performed very much. Many Jamaicans of their generations hadn't
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performed much in public, so Joe Higgs apparently was a key factor in teaching
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them how to harmonize and to blend their talents. All three of them were
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good lead singers, but they harmonized a lot. So to get them in
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a group first of all, getting them to harmonize effectively when two or three
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of them sang at once, but also sort of divide the material and figure
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out who was the best lead singer for certain songs was an important part of
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refinding your performance, so he was important in that way. He also taught
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Jimmy Cliff, right, Jimmy Cliff is part of the Bob Marley story.
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Jimmy Cliff to day, yeah he is a part of the Bob Marley story,
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but not so much as well. They were hanging out together a lot,
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and they taught each other things because Jimmy moved to the United Kingdom a
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few years before Bob Marley and the Whalers did, and he had international success
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three or four years before Marley and the Whalers became globally known. He had
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a big hit single in the United States, Wonderful World, Beautiful People.
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I remember hearing that on the radio when I was seven years old when it
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came out. It wasn't even called reggae music when it was played on the
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radio. That's how really it was what was called then. It wasn't especially
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called anything. I think it would have been called soul music, if anything.
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And I didn't know Jimmy Cliff was from Jamaica until the early seventies.
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But an indirect role Cliff played in the Whaler's career is that in the early
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seventies, when Chris Blackwell of Island Records was on the lookout for a reggae
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artist, he thought that he could promote as sort of a crossover star they
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would be that would be an artist who would be popular not just among people
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of Jamaican ancestry, but for everybody, including white rock listeners. He was
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considering signing Jimmy Cliff, especially because he knew that when Jimmy Cliff had just
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started in The Harder They Come, the very important film for spreading awareness of
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reggae music and Jamaican culture everywhere. He thought Jimmy Cliff might be a suitable
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candidate for somebody to record and market as sort of a crossover start. But
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Jimmy Cliff wanted a deal with a different record label. Maybe that record label
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offered more money. But around that time, when he couldn't work out something
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with Jimmy Cliff, he realized that the Whalers were in Britain and they were
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looking for a record deal, and they were also looking to spread their influence
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in sales beyond Jamaica to as wide a market as possible. And I don't
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think it was just a matter of well, I can take the Whalers because
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I can't get Jimmy Cliff, I'll settle for something second best. He was
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on the lookout for something, and with Jimmy Cliff not being available, he
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was I think Chris Blackwell sincerely impressed by the Whalers, maybe Bob Morley the
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most of the three Whalers at that time, and thought, well, these
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fellows and Marley have at least as much potential as Jimmy Cliff would. The
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early lineup of the Whalers is interesting to look at it because it grew.
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In the early years. There was Junior I think it's pronounced Braithwait, is
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that that's right, and Cherry Green, and then there was a teenager named
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Beverly Kelso do you think early on that they were trying to emulate the American
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doop groups or are they just trying to find their way as a group and
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trying to find their sound. I think both, and there was Even though
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Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, and Bunny Livingston who would later change his name
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to Bunny Whaler, were the three he got, there were a good number
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of people going in and out, and sometimes the reasons they didn't stay didn't
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solely have to do with the music. Sometimes the members just wanted to do
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something else. And Junior moved to the United States. He's no longer alive,
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unfortunately. And it's also interesting that some of the Whaler's records, even
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when some of the people we mentioned weren't in the group anymore, they don't
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have Bunny Whaler on them because he was in prison for a spell. They
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might not have Bob Marley on them because he was sort of moving back and
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forth for at least some trips between Kingston or Jamaica and Delaware, where his
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mother had moved in the early sixties, and she took an American husband,
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So the lineup was sort of fluid, but it was obvious those were the
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three main guys, and then of course later they got very talented instrumental players
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like family men to play in the backup group vocals too, Right Junior did
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some lead yeah, early tracks and very prominently. You can hear some of
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the women vocalists in the background, those really high notes. I think part
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of that influence was the Platters and maybe the early Miracles too, because both
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of those groups they were mostly male, but they had a prominent woman singer,
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so they wanted to at least try out that male female vocal blend.
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And it didn't just stop when those early members stopped performing with the Whalers,
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because, of course, in the seventies when Bob formed a different lineup with
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the Whalers without Tash and Bunny Whaler, the I three's were an extremely important
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part of the Whalers sound, the backup women vocalists who included Rita Marley,
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his wife. You did stit up front. The book that a lot of
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Bob's early life is a mystery, different accounts and different books about him.
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Bob father his first child in nineteen sixty three, first of many children,
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but how many children and how many mothers varies. Most say it's about a
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dozen birth by almost as many women. Were they no hospital records or what's
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the story behind the mystery? Well, even if there are hospital records,
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if the child is not noted on the record as having Marley as the father,
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I'm not an expert on Jamaican birth records or for that matter, when
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he became a star, he was seeing people who weren't from Jamaica. They
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might not necessarily tell the full story, but he was just hard to keep
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up with. It is kind of odd that, even with the many children
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that he had, he was only married once, did not get divorced,
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and it must have been a complex, untraditional relationship. But he continued to
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work with Rita Marley as a singer, sometimes Marley Rita helping with the business
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his whole life, So their relationship probably went through varying degrees of closeness,
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but she was always an important part of his music and his life, I
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think after the mid nineteen sixties. You also make clear at the beginning of
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the book that Marley is often deified as a saint or even a christ like
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figure, but he was like any idolized artist, very human and flawed.
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Is there any documentation from the women he was with that shed some light on
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Bob as a partner, as a father, how much of that is known.
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There are some of them, more prominent ones, not just Rita but
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like Cindy Breakespeare, have been interviewed about Bob and whether they're being diplomatic or
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not, there are very few negative remarks about his character. I'm sure some
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of them wish, well, we should have had a more solid or maybe
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more monogamous relationship, But the perception of whether that's a bad thing that he
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had all these children and real relationships, it might vary according to the woman
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he was involved with and different cultural standards in different places that he was living.
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And I'm not trying to say, well, I think it was totally
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a kay that he did that, and probably his children, not all of
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them fell that was okay because they got varying degrees of financial and emotional support.
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But it's just hard to trace and figure out. And it's not just
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Bob Marley as a celebrity that you run across this. I want to make
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clear Bob Dylan has had relationships with a number of women and children with different
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women, and he's been subject to much more biographical scrutiny than Bob Marley and
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of course it's easier to trace stuff, but even there were some marriages and
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children that did not come to light, or at least some partnerships that produced
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children that did not come to light for many years, about which not much
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is still known. I'm not talking about his principal partner, Sarah Dylan,
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but there were other leasans that produced kids. The book done Rock Podcasts will
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be back after this. Bob's debut recordings were as a solo artist, but
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soon after the Whalers signed a record deal. But they're not getting rich overnight
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with this deal. Can you talk about their contract? And also who coxone
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Dodd was. Coxone Dodd ran one of the most prominent studios and labels.
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They were very intertwined in the nineteen sixties in Jamaica. Many artists recorded for
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coxone Dodd, and I would guess the specifics of a contract if there even
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was a contract the whole time they were recording for him. There might not
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have been one in terms of a document. It's hard to say, but
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going from reports and interviews, the Whalers made very little money, not because
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they were specifically being floided by one record producer and label owner. Virtually all
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musicians in Jamaica had it rough. And in Jamaica, the charts I've been
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able to see, I haven't able it'll see every week, but there are
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some that were printed in papers there. They had big hit records in Jamaica.
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But remember what a small market Jamaica is, what a poor It was
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a substantially poorer country than it is now. And you could have a number
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one or a number five record, or a few a year and not be
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able to support a family very well, or by the best clothes that you
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wanted to perform in when you needed to. One report had it that they
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were getting like five pounds a week or Marley was because he was writing in
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addition to recording, and he was actually helping with other sessions with other artists,
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And there was a report that he was sleeping on the table of the
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studio because didn't really have a permanent base. That's part of the reason that
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he went to Delaware a few times. Part of it, I'm sure was
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to visit his mother. But also, and this sounds weird, it seems
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like he could make more money doing menial jobs there than he could as a
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recording star in Jamaica, and again, there are varying reports. What kind
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of jobs did he have. Some people say he was bussing table, that
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he was working in a factory, that he was sweeping the factory, that
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he was on an assembly line. But they were in prestigious jobs. Nonetheless,
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part of the reason he went was he would earn money, and his
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hope was to come back to Jamaica and start his own record label because he
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was tired of recording for other labels and not getting much money out of it.
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But before we get to the next question, I do want to emphasize
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I think the most important thing about his early years. It's very interesting the
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impovery circumstances. The most important thing is that he and the Whalers made a
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lot of good music, still not extremely well known, in the first ten
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years of their career. I would say that is the most attractive reason for
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me to do this book. Of course, I cover his years as a
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superstar in as much depth, but a lot of people have not heard the
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first ten or years or so of his and the Whalers' recordings. I think
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a lot of the music they made during that time is very good, and
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some of it is even on par with the music that Marley may that were
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big hit records in the nineteen seventies. I agree, and I admit also
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I'm one of those who didn't hear that portion of his career until doing this
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episode, and then it put together a playlist that I always put up with
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each episode, and a lot of the tracks that I include on the playlist
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that people can hear if they go to the show notes page. There's a
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link there never heard before, and you hear the soul influence big time.
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And there's the Studio one sessions. If he could talk about those scattered across
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LPs and CD compilations, but worth the effort. You described the Studio one
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side as admirably eclectic, but wildly uneven. Can you describe what they sound
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like, because it's not really like the Bob Marley music that you might be
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accustomed to. It's it sounds like early soul music. Before nineteen sixty seven,
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the Whaler's records were like a lot of Jamaican music, not like the
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reggae that we're familiar with. From say the early seventies onward, reggae evalved
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out of ska music, which was a lot faster. The rhythm of skas
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a trademark. It's like didn't, didn't, but it's not regular four to
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four like solo rock and roll. There's an accent on the offbeat, so
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you can tell that it's Jamaican. It's not an American soul music sound.
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But on those early records with the Whalers from say nineteen sixty four to nine
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teen sixty six, and there are a lot of them, some of them
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are really up tempo, fun party records, like simmer Down, which was
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their first really big hit in Jamaica. But on some of them, on
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the ballads, it's like they're trying to emulate Curtis Mayfield with the impressions,
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and reader Marley confirmed Curtis Mayfield was the biggest influence on Bob and the Whalers.
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They even do some songs which are like fifties doop, like ten Commandments
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of Love, but also they're trying some stuff that you wouldn't associate with the
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Whalers. They do a pretty good version I would say of the Beatles and
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I love her and Wow, where's is that available? I don't think it
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is available. It's a lot of the heartbeat record CDs that's our American label.
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I'm not sure if that compilation is still in print, well, I'll
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add it to the playlist. If it's there, I'm going to add it.
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But even stranger and this is not as good, and this is more
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falling into what I would call uneven the What's New Pussycat the Tom Jones hit
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that's not really too suitable for them, so they were kind of searching for
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stuff. They were writing a lot of it. One of their best SKA
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songs from that time. Bob Marley is not on the record because he was
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in the States Dancing Shoes where Buddy Whaler takes the lead vocal. But when
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Wale Marley came back and was trying to start his own label with a lot
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of help from Rita. Like a lot of ska from that time, the
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whole Jamaican scene slowed down its rhythms into rock steady, which was kind of
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the bridge between ska and reggae music, which was kind of slower. But
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also I think at the end of the sixties, the influence of the Rastafari
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faith, which all the Whalers got heavily into, started to influence their lyrics,
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but not just the lyrics that were sort of religious or spiritual, just
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get them thinking more seriously about making more sophisticatedly lyrics with a message. Nothing
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wrong with the early Scar records where it was just like have a good time
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or I'm in love, like a lot of soul records were from that time,
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but these influences were combining to make them think of songwriting in a different
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way. And throughout that time we're talking sixty four when Simmered Down was their
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first Jamaican hit. Through nineteen seventy two, there are a lot of good
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records. They get less uneven as far as the quality as time goes on,
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So by the early seventies it's a little different than catch Afire or burnin
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the first two Island Records albums, but there are a lot more recognizably the
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kind of music that Marley is most famous for. One Love is one of
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the earliest of several Whaler songs that would find a bigger audience when it's re
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recorded in the seventies. What was the first version recorded and does it differ
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greatly from the seventies version. I know what it sounds like, but for
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those who may not have heard that original version, the original version, which
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was just primarily for the Jamaican market. It's a lot more like American do
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wop and soul music. And by the time Marley re recorded it in the
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mid seventies, and that's the version people are a lot more familiar with.
23:15
Like all of his music, I would say it had more of a rock
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influence, not in a bad way. And also, this is just the
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reality Jamaican recording technology in the mid to late sixties often wasn't that great when
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I play it? Also, a teacher of adult education music history courses,
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most of the students are older than I am. I'm going to be sixty
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two in a few days, but most of them are older. But most
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of them haven't heard this music. And when I play stuff like simmer Down
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and Dancing Shoes, I ask, would you agree this sounds more like a
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record from nineteen fifty six to nineteen sixty six, And they say, yeah,
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it sounds more like the Five Satins doing in the Still the Night than
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say the Temptations doing I wish it would ring where the production or my girl,
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the production is very clear and sophisticated, does not sound qualitatively different from
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something recorded today almost sixty years later. So when I think Marley liked to
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revisit some songs like one Love, and there were others too that he knew
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that when he was recording in London after signing to Island Records, maybe he
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and the other Whalers felt like they could record it with more depth and presence
24:32
than was possible when they did it the first time around in Jamaica. So
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a sounded different, not necessarily all. You can't listen to the original because
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fidelity is terrible. No, you could listen to the original. There are
24:44
enjoyable records, but he wanted to do something that had more of a sound
24:48
that would be approachable by everybody, no matter where they lived. He gets
24:52
married to Rita Anderson. That's in nineteen sixty six, Briefly leaves Jamaica,
24:57
goes to the US Delaware, is not there. Long comes back and let's
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go back to the Rastafari movement Chapter three titled from Rock Steady to Reggae nineteen
25:07
sixty seven. In nineteen seventy one, and Rastafari that's a word that I
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heard and would read from time to time when I learned more about Bob growing
25:17
up. In nineteen sixty six, Bob and Rita became followers of Rastafari.
25:22
What was the Rastafari movement about? Even having read about it, It's really
25:26
hard to explain in a paragraph. And I'm saying this not to evade the
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question, but it's because it's been written about and characterized in quite a few
25:38
different ways, and the followers of the faith sometimes embrace it for quite different
25:45
reasons. But I think afrocentrism is a big part of that faith, and
25:55
Jamaican blacks, like the African Americans and North America, they usually came here
26:02
under not just impoverished, but really to humanizing circumstances, and even with slavery
26:08
having been outlawed in this country and also in Jamaica, there was still a
26:14
lot of stigma attached to being black and being a descendant and not having as
26:19
many rights as the ruling classes in Jamaica and the United States. I know
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this is a long answer, but you can bear with me here. With
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the Rasafari faith, I think it imparted a lot of pride and both social
26:34
and political empowerment in making African origins something to be proud of rather than something
26:44
to be well. We're trying to overcome that and assimilate or we don't want
26:48
to think about our origins. At the same time, it was a faith
26:53
that was distinctly different from the Judeo Christian face that had often been imposed upon
27:00
slaves and upon the people who move from Africa to hear And when I say
27:07
that, I'm not being critical of those faiths per se, just that sometimes
27:11
elements of those faith were imposed on the slaves and their descendants without these people
27:21
of color being aware of alternative face. And also, although it's not something
27:26
I play up in the book, marijuana was and still is a sacrament that's
27:33
a big part of that faith. Sometimes I think it's embraced for hedonistic purposes,
27:38
but often at the same time for spiritual purposes, where it's felt this
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is something that you partake in so that you reach a different spiritual in addition
27:52
to physical plane. That's something that was celebrated in much reggae music league by
28:00
one of the original Whalers, Peter Tosh is probably the most famous example.
28:04
But all of that I think combined to give the Whaler's music a more spiritual
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cast, not just in this religion is something that's very important to us,
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but also the way this religion makes us feel better and deal better with the
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world is a message that can be imparted to the world, whether they know
28:26
about Rastafari religion or not. And I want to make sure people know I
28:33
wouldn't advocate or condemn that sort of use. I just think it's important to
28:38
acknowledge as part of what shape reggae music, and that also that you can
28:42
enjoy reggae music and Bob Marley's music without partaking in that or feeling like you
28:48
have to to get the most out of the music. There's a couple songs
28:52
we know about it Clapton's cover of I Shot the Sheriff. That wasn't the
28:56
only Marley song to be turned into a hit by another artist, though.
29:00
Johnny Nash recorded a song composed by Bobb in nineteen sixty seven called Stirred Up.
29:06
Nash recorded it in nineteen seventy two number twelve single. Talk about Johnny
29:11
Nash, What kind of artist was he prior to meeting Bob and how does
29:15
he and Bob Marley team up? How's that all come to be? Nash
29:19
is an American soul singer. It's important to make that distinction. I bet
29:22
there are some people who might think he's Jamaican because he had that hit,
29:27
but also the reggae influence on some of his more popular recordings. But he
29:32
spent some time in Jamaica and became aware of the sort of budding volcano of
29:38
reggae music much earlier than most Americans and most American entertainers, and he realized
29:47
pretty early on this music can catch on outside of Jamaica, especially because it
29:52
has a prominent soul music influence. But it's different enough that people will pay
29:56
attention to it because it's going to sound like nothing they've heard before. Even
30:02
in the late sixties, Johnny Nash had some records with a slighter reggae influence,
30:07
but it was there. But Nash and someone who was involved with his
30:11
management saw potential for this music, not just in Johnny Nash recording some of
30:18
this material, but also in working with Bob Marley and Peter Tosh as songwriters,
30:25
thinking the songs that they are composing, there's a big potential market for
30:33
them if other people do those songs. I don't think they were fully realizing
30:37
we can have Marlee Tosh and Livingstone do the songs and have those records.
30:41
The original versions be the popular records. I think Chris Blackwell realized that a
30:48
lot more fully when he signed them to Island Records. Johnny Nash has sometimes
30:53
been criticized like sometimes a group like the Rolling Stones would be criticized, well,
30:57
you took these blue songs or this blues feel and made it popular,
31:02
but it should have been the original blues or the original reggae performers who got
31:06
their recognition and the sales. I don't see it that way. First of
31:10
all, I see I think you can have them both. You can have
31:12
the Rolling Stones at many orders. You can have Johnny Nash and Bob Marley.
31:17
They both have qualities. They bought to the recordings. But also I
31:21
do think that Johnny Nash helped the reggae artists more than he would have hurt
31:26
them by recording these versions. And people would hear them like stir it up,
31:33
and a good number of them would be curious enough to figure out this
31:37
guy. Bob Marley wrote them. I want to hear what Bob Marley did.
31:41
Just like when Ira Clapton had the number one hit with I shot the
31:44
Sheriff, they might realize Bob Marley did this, he does it in an
31:48
appreciably different way. I want to hear more of Bob Marley stuff. The
31:52
book Down Rock Podcasts will be back after this, Ritchie Underberger. He's the
31:59
author of Bob Marley in the Whaler's The Ultimate Illustrated History. It's out January
32:02
sixteenth. Another guy Bob Marley and the Whalers worked with was Lee Scratch Perry.
32:08
And in the caption underneath a photo of Lee in the book, you
32:13
rit quote one of the most eccentric figures in all of twentieth century popular music?
32:17
Who was Lee Scratch Perry and what work did he do with Bob and
32:21
the Whalers. Lee Scratch Perry was a Jamaican producer who worked with a lot
32:27
of artists and also although he wasn't like a conventional singer with a commercial voice,
32:34
he put out a lot of his own records and his early productions.
32:37
This is going back to the nineteen sixties in Jamaica. They weren't so out
32:43
of the ordinary, but very quickly he used a lot of studio techniques which
32:50
were unconventional, not just for Jamaica but for anywhere, using echo, lending
32:57
instruments, doingtr strumental versions of some vocal songs where he would put on a
33:02
lot more far out effects, which would be called dub music. And although
33:07
the association that he and the Whalers had was pretty brief, this is before
33:14
they were signed to Island Records, he did some of their He produced some
33:19
of their most adventurous records, both in terms of the more sophisticated songwriting they
33:24
were moving into, but also the clearer sound and the deeper sound that they
33:31
were starting to explore in the studio. Just one feature of that sound,
33:37
which I think is pretty important. Marlee is more known as a singer and
33:42
a songwriter, and I understand why, but he did play guitar and that
33:45
sort of chink of chink rhythm that you hear not just in the Whaler's music,
33:50
but in tons of reggae music. It's like a cliche in a formula
33:53
now, but it wasn't in the early seventies, and Marlee has been credited
33:58
with devising that to style. Didn't didn't dn't didn't you know that rhythm with
34:04
a very heavy, sort of emphatic guitar strums stir it up, ye stir
34:07
it up an electric guitar. Well, he devised that. I think it
34:14
wasn't Lee Perry who did well. Lee Perry much more so than I think
34:19
cox Son DoD could record that and make it an important part of the records
34:24
without getting either buried or maybe overwhelming the vocals. The balance in Lee Mark
34:30
Lee Perry's material was very carefully crafted, as some of the Whalers did with
34:37
a good number of people in the music business. There were business conflicts with
34:40
Lee Perry. They kind of fell out. I think that's why they did
34:45
not do more recordings with them. And also I think that Chris Blackwell,
34:49
when he signed the Whalers to Island Records, he had more of a rock
34:52
sound in mind and wouldn't have wanted Lee Perry to oversee those records. But
35:00
helping to take the Whalers on their way from being the SKA a rock steady
35:05
artists who didn't have too much experience in the studio to artists who would do
35:08
reggae that was maybe more accessible to a global audience. I think that Lee
35:15
Perry was important in doing that without diluting their message. That's a key also
35:21
to emphasize there was a trip to Sweden in nineteen seventy one to write music
35:24
for a soundtrack didn't pan out, but Bob wrote a ton of music there
35:29
note in the book. But then there's the international breakthrough of the early seventies.
35:32
Can you talk about the overseas task at the start of nineteen seventy two
35:37
that would make the Whalers international stars. It was a lot easier in some
35:43
ways for Jamaican entertainers to relocate to London than it would have been to the
35:49
United States, even though the soul music of the United States was such a
35:52
big influence. And that's because Jamaica had been a colony of the United Kingdom
35:58
until nineteen sixty two and it declared independence. But there was a big or
36:02
still is a huge Jamaican community in Britain and especially in London, and even
36:10
after declaring independence, it was much easier for Jamaicans to move to Britain and
36:17
resettle there if they if they wanted to, then it would have been to
36:21
the United States and get visa and residents permit for the States and things like
36:24
that. So the Whalers, when they really wanted to make their listenership much
36:31
wider than Jamaica, they targeted London. That's where most of the entertainment business
36:38
was based in the United Kingdom and they didn't necessarily have Island Records in mind.
36:46
But in the course of trying to find a record label who would give
36:51
them international distribution, Island Records turned out to be I think the most suitable
36:58
partner because prison Blackwell, who was a white Jamaica who had moved to London.
37:06
Island Records started as principally a reggae or a ska label. It moved
37:10
into rock music very successfully with artists like Stevie Winwood in Traffic and then Roxy
37:15
Music and King Crimson, Emerson Lake and Palmer Fairborg Convention Kat Stevens. But
37:22
Chris Blackwell, who was the head of Island Records, knew reggae music really
37:28
really well, that as well as any record executive outside of Jamaica would know,
37:31
because that's what he specialized in the early to mid sixties, selling these
37:36
reggae and ska records to expatriate Jamaicans who are now living in London. So
37:44
it was a really good match in that way, because Blackwell wanted to start
37:47
to go back to his roots in a sense and record more reggae music,
37:52
but not the kind of way he had done it in the early to mid
37:54
sixties. He had a global market in mind, and it turned out Marlin
38:00
and the Whalers were in London at that time, and they were available and
38:05
very willing to work with Chris Blackwell in making that transition. They had a
38:10
hard time getting gigs when they first came there to London. They weren't so
38:15
well known, even though I think some Jamaicans must have been familiar with the
38:19
Whalers from records that were being imported because there was such a big market for
38:22
reggae in London. But it was a confluence and once they signed and were
38:29
recording for Island records, it made sense, well, now it's time to
38:34
tour, first starting in London, but then very quickly in the United States.
38:37
That touring, however, was probably a factor in getting mob Marley pushed
38:45
Moore as the forefront star and Peter Tosh and Bunny Whaler to leave the Whalers
38:52
and start their own careers. You call Bob in the book when asked why
38:55
he came to America when he could have stayed in Jamaica and didn't just fine,
39:00
and he said, quote, a lot of people ask me why I
39:02
come to America, when I can do very well in Jamaica. My answer
39:06
is that I do want to spread peace and help others. We want to
39:09
show that the world can get along very well without war, that humans must
39:14
appreciate others as humans, not by race or religion. Where do you think
39:19
that mindset came from his childhood, the Rastafari connection, I think from a
39:24
couple of directions. One was that Jamaica sometimes still is considered a developing nation.
39:34
It's not materially it's substantially better than it was in the sixties and seventies.
39:39
But I think that Marley wanted to represent not just Jamaica, but the
39:46
people of all nations of that sort, from Africa and elsewhere where. The
39:52
material circumstances were very meager, but maybe more importantly, dignity and human rights
40:00
were not as accessible to the huge underclass that was a huge majority of Jamaican
40:07
population, or an African population or populations and others. I think he felt,
40:14
although he didn't make a big ego deal out of this, that he
40:16
could be sort of a spokesperson for human rights for the people everywhere who were
40:22
oppressed, and coming from Jamaica, he certainly would never have been accused that,
40:29
well, you're speaking for people that you don't know what they're like,
40:31
because he had gone through that growing up, both in terms of poverty but
40:36
also in terms of not having as many rights as the ruling white minority of
40:44
Jamaica. But to be honest, and I don't think there's anything wrong with
40:46
this, he saw there was a huge career, an economic opportunity for becoming
40:52
popular in a much bigger market, and in the first two years or so
41:00
when he toured in North America, he had to put in a lot of
41:05
work to make himself known as a name, but that often meant touring with
41:10
or supporting other acts, not touring as the headliner. He paid a lot
41:16
of dues in that regard, and one of the most interesting ads that you
41:22
find when you go through memorabilia of early Whaler's appearances, he and Bruce Springsteen
41:29
shared the same bill in New York in nineteen seventy three at a club when
41:36
Springsteen was barely known. Springsteen had just put out his first album in nineteen
41:40
seventy three. Though those must have been amazing shows because both of those guys
41:45
must have been hungry leading their bands, trying to make a bigger impact not
41:50
being stars. I mean, Springsteen wouldn't have his first big hit until Born
41:52
to Run a couple of years later. And I think Marley also realized it
41:58
doesn't matter so much to someone like Springsteen or sly Stone. He would also
42:02
be on a bill with They're not reggae musicians. But this is going to
42:07
bring this music to an audience which otherwise might not discover it. And it
42:13
was I think good strategy on his end, his record label manager's parts,
42:19
if they were involved too. I can testify to this. As an eleven
42:22
year old in nineteen seventy three, the first time I heard reggae music was
42:27
on FM radio when it was more alternative than it would be by the end
42:30
of the seventies. Most of what FM radio played were like album caused by
42:34
Paying Floyd and things like that. But they were very receptive to playing this
42:39
music on FM radio, and reggae therefore reached a white rock audience it could
42:45
have never reached in Jamaica, in part because Miley was playing with these rock
42:51
acts and sometimes soul acts in the United States. So there are quite a
42:55
few factors I went into this, but I think that was definitely part of
43:00
what Marlee and his associates were thinking. You mentioned Springsteen, and it makes
43:05
me think of a question that as I was reading the book about Bob,
43:12
because we know the December third, nineteen seventy six shooting was politically motivated in
43:15
the opinion of many, and Riadam Marley's memoir she said Bob had become more
43:22
important than the Prime minister. Yeah, I'm too young to know what it
43:25
was like at that time, but you know, I know there are artists
43:30
where they start to mix politics with their music and some fans get turned off
43:35
by that. With Bob. Was there ever any of that? And if
43:38
not, why do you think that is with Bob Marley? I think,
43:42
if anything, his not so much political, but his advocacy of human rights
43:50
and championing the underprivilege. I think, if anything, it really increased his
43:55
popularity so much so that's certainly within Jamaica. Although he didn't run for office
44:02
and he wasn't blatantly endorsing this candidate or the other, his stature was similar
44:10
to or greater than in a political figure, certainly among young people. When
44:19
I say young, not just teenagers, like people under forty, So it
44:22
was considered crucial by both of the main political Jamaican parties to get his endorsement
44:30
if possible, and he didn't want to go out and say I endorse this
44:36
party or that party, but I think it was implicit from his message.
44:39
Well, probably the liberal party is the one that our listeners are going to
44:45
be more comfortable with, and that might have motivated the attempt on his and
44:52
other people in his camp's life, thinking you're playing this concert where the more
44:58
liberal party has a attached itself to the concert without really Bob Marley's endorsement.
45:05
So therefore, if you play this concert, which was just a few weeks
45:07
away, it's going to hurt our chances in the election because it's going to
45:13
be seen. Even if you're not coming out and saying I'm endorsing Michael Manley,
45:16
this candidate is going to be seen as endorsing him. And he had
45:20
that kind of influence too. I mean, he could change somebody's decision as
45:23
to who they want to vote for, yeah, or maybe make some of
45:28
them think, well, you can go out and vote even if you've never
45:30
voted before, which is also in this country. It's also an important consideration
45:35
where it's still I don't know what the percentage is, but more than thirty
45:39
percent of the population that was eligible to vote did not vote in the last
45:45
major presidential election. So the same sort of thing happens all over. Yeah,
45:51
and he survives the shooting, but ultimately it's cancer that takes his life.
45:54
And the crazy thing is, if he had his toe amputated like the
45:58
doctor suggested, it's likely he would survived. He didn't want to do that.
46:01
He was just thirty six when he died on May eleventh, nineteen eighty
46:05
one. He would be seventy nine next month if my math is correct.
46:09
Yeah, what do you think Bob Marley would have gone on to do?
46:14
Very hard to say, as it is for all rock stars who die young.
46:20
It's a big list. But I, for instance, some of the
46:22
courses I teach are on Jimmy Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Buddy Holly's a big
46:28
part of my course on rock and rolls first decade. But I will try
46:30
and answer the question. One of my favorite Bob Marley songs, but also
46:37
I think one of the most important and impressive is Redemption song, which he
46:43
recorded near the end of his life. And if you heard that song without
46:46
knowing anything else about Marley's career, you wouldn't think this is a reggae artist.
46:52
I think you might think he's a folk music artist, or what we
46:55
call in the States, a singer songwriter like Joni Mitchell or somebody like that.
47:02
If he had not been ill, I think, without ever losing reggae
47:09
as a big part of his music, he might have started to branch into
47:13
other sorts of music, like you hear a Redemption song. I think with
47:19
the ascendancy of awareness of world music, especially from Africa in the nineteen eighties,
47:23
he might have been interested in using some of those qualities, the rhythmic
47:30
in some of the instruments you hear in African music of Falia or King Sannia
47:34
Da or Ali Farca Torre in his music without imitating it, just integrating it
47:38
like a lot of artists do, like the Beatles did, like Johnny Mitchell
47:42
would do when she went into more jazz type music. And I don't always
47:49
have big hosts for collaborations with other artists. Usually they're more disappointing on paper
47:54
or in reality than they are on paper. But perhaps he could have done
47:59
collaboration. But just read my mind I was gonna ask about, yeah,
48:01
if he would do that, Yeah, do a collaboration with the Clash or
48:06
the Police who were influenced by the reggae sound, Yeah, or other artists
48:10
of color who weren't from Jamaica, like Prince or somebody like that, right,
48:16
Yeah. Or Stevie Wonder. That might be a better example, because
48:19
Stevie Wonder, I think is closer to Marley's generation and closer to his music,
48:23
and we can see some potential there. Right around the time he died,
48:27
they said he was gonna do a col headlining tour with Stevie Wonder,
48:30
Yeah, which would have been I think great for both of them. Because
48:35
Stevie Wonder was aware of reggae music. Obvious example Boogie on Reggae, Boogie
48:42
on Reggae Woman a hit for him. Bob Marley was certainly aware of what
48:45
soul musicians were doing. I don't think necessarily by them touring together their next
48:51
album suddenly you might think, well, they almost sound like they're combining their
48:54
music. But there could have been subtle influences that would have been interesting.
48:59
So so that is something I think that might have happened. Also, I
49:04
think he might have wanted to work even more extensively with other artists as a
49:10
producer, songwriter, mentor. One of the goals of Tough Gong, which
49:15
he and the Whalers were important in helping get off the ground, was for
49:20
it to be sort of a Motown Records of Jamaica like Motown was with Detroit,
49:25
where it wouldn't just be a good studio that people could use a lot
49:30
of songwriters, session musicians, even promoters and publicists, record producers could sort
49:37
of feed off of each other and it could be sort of a hothouse of
49:42
producing all this great music like Motown was for soul music in the sixties and
49:45
early seventies. Tough Gong has done a lot of stuff, but I don't
49:50
think it ever got to that level that Marley was maybe envisioning of being like
49:54
the Motown of reggae music, or just a Motown where it wasn't just reggae
49:59
but loss of cool music was coming out of there. I wonder would Bob
50:04
Marley have gotten more involved with politics. I don't know. I think he
50:08
was suspicious of organized politics and going what we go through here in the United
50:15
States on a daily basis. You might understand that he might want to promote
50:20
values that should be adopted and encouraged, rather than well, here's a political
50:25
candidate and we want them to attack someone else in the debate, which many
50:30
of us in the United States, even if we're in favor of one or
50:34
the other of the candidates, we're like, well, we want results,
50:38
don't We want people to enact this in their lives and policies to improve people's
50:45
lives, rather than let's get on the floor of Congress or a parliament and
50:51
fight it out. I think he was reluctant to get involved in endorsing and
50:54
heavily campaigning in that way. But I might be mistaken or he might,
51:01
at least in subtle ways, have said, hey, this is at least
51:04
something you can do. Organize in your communities, even if you're not really
51:09
happy with the candidates, vote for whoever you can to make some change possible.
51:15
We don't know, it's certainly possible. Bob Dylan's still recording to this
51:20
day and he's eighty. I think, yeah, although he's never been one
51:24
to say I support this candidate. I mean, even when Obama was in
51:29
office. I think it was a rolling Stone interview, but it was a
51:30
major interview. He was like evading the question, well who would you support,
51:35
and he's I wouldn't. I don't agree with how Dylan approached this.
51:39
It was more like, well, I don't really want to be pinned down
51:42
to anything. My thought would be, well, when there's obvious differences between
51:46
these political philosophies, why wouldn't you say I support this one rather than the
51:52
other one. But that's not the way Dylan thought. Yeah, we should
51:54
leave out Bunny and Peter what became a Bunny Livingston and Peter Tosh unfortunately tragic
52:00
ending to Peter Tosh's life. To backtrack a bit, a couple of the
52:05
things I wanted to cover most in the book, which is a survey of
52:08
Bob Marley's career, to give a lot of space to his first ten years
52:13
before he became globally known not just for his life, but the many good
52:17
records he in The Whaler's made in varying styles. But also Luckily, and
52:24
it's because the title of the book is Bob Marley and the Whalers, it's
52:29
not just Bob Marley, I did have the opportunity to both discuss Tosh and
52:37
Whaler's contributions to the Whalers when they were in the group, but also some
52:40
of their solo career. And this will be kind of a big answer,
52:45
but I think it's important to know that when they were both in the Whalers
52:50
with Bob Marley, they weren't just side musicians or doing occasional things or backup
52:54
harmony singers. They were full members of the group songwriting and lead singing and
53:01
collaboration. It's a rough comparison, but I wish that they had been able
53:07
to do one or two more albums with all three of the guys in the
53:10
group after they signed The Island, because all of them could have written and
53:15
sang, and just in the way you hear the White Album or something where
53:19
there's some Lennon songs, McCartney songs, and some Harrison songs, they blend
53:22
together very well, but they all have different viewpoints and different vocal personas.
53:28
I think if they had done a double album utilizing all three of those guys'
53:31
talents, it would have possibly been a knockout and really impressive. Yeah,
53:37
And because Island wasn't going to spring for a double album to begin with,
53:42
and because Marley to some degree was being focused on as the star at the
53:47
expense of some of Tash and Whaler's material. They separated from the Whalers pretty
53:52
early on, but as solo artists they did interesting things. Peter Tosh had
53:59
and I'm saying this as a compliment, a somewhat rawer, blunter style,
54:02
like laying it out, legalize it. It's his most famous song, but
54:07
that's an example. A lot of reggae songs they kind of refer to marijuana
54:12
use. Peter Tosh isn't just going to refer to that. He's going to
54:15
advocate for what he thinks should be a policy towards marijuana users. Bunny Whaler
54:21
kind of had like a sweeter, more romantic tone. He didn't write as
54:27
much as Tosh and certainly as Whaler as Marley, but he was worth hearing
54:32
for what he could voice in that way, And of course, fortunately for
54:36
him, he got to live a lot longer, not just do a lot
54:39
more records, but kind of carrying on some of the message of the Whalers
54:43
a lot longer than Marley could, who died in the early eighties, and
54:47
Tosh was shot to death in the late eighties when he was still in his
54:52
mid forties. There could have been a lot more music that he could have
54:54
done. So in a book like this, I think it's important to note,
55:00
not just in footnotes, but some descriptions of their records and their activities.
55:05
These guys carried on the message of the Whalers after they left Bob Marley,
55:09
and it's well worth hearing what they did after they were not in the
55:14
same group. And Bunny only passed a few years ago. Yeah, I
55:16
think he had a couple struggles. Yeah, all lives if you make it
55:22
into your seventies and you don't get any farther. We all want our lives
55:25
and those who we value to be longer. But it was a lot longer
55:30
than uh Peter and Bob's. And he he got to also get a lot
55:37
of recognition because he was sort of an elder statesperson. I don't attach too
55:42
much importance to awards, but he got, you know, awards in the
55:45
United States for a few of his records. Talk about the legacy, the
55:49
legacy of Bob Marley and the Whalers, because that's like you said, the
55:52
book is about Bob Marley and the Whalers. What is their legacy more than
55:58
any other almost any other artist. The Beatles are a notable exception. They
56:05
and especially Marley have had a multi generational following which seems to me not be
56:13
in danger of diminishing, which is just amazing. I mean, Elvis Presley
56:17
is a great artist. Everyone knows who he is, but really not as
56:23
many people listen to and Bias records as they did, like even in the
56:29
nineteen nineties or in two thousands. Doesn't mean he's any less of an artist,
56:34
but he doesn't have that eternal appeal and mystique, and Bob Marley's has
56:39
just grown and grown. Of course you see his t shirts and his handbags
56:44
everywhere, but a lot more important than the merchandise. I think his message
56:50
is universally appreciated, and not just his protest songs. This is something else
56:53
I'd like to emphasize. He had a lot of songs about celebrating, songs
56:59
about romance. He was a multi dimensional artist, but he was very skilled
57:04
as sort of distilling the message to lyrics that were intelligent but very easily grasped
57:10
and understood, including by people who didn't who don't speak English as their primary
57:15
language. I went to Sicily six years ago and for the entertainers on the
57:22
street who were just playing for change. The most frequent material you heard,
57:28
aside from songs by John Lennon and Paul McCartney, were Bob Marley songs like
57:34
get Us Stand Up. Yeah, you know. The most popular songs,
57:37
the one that you the ones that you see that you hear on the legend
57:42
jamming certainly Lively up yourself. I don't know how that miss being on legend.
57:51
That's the song that should have been on legend. That's not but that's
57:52
the song that gets played a lot. But I think the message of whoever
58:00
you are and whatever your background, you have just as much right to get
58:05
as much out of life as anybody, whether whatever your economic or your ethnic
58:09
background. That's something that's eternal, and we might not live to see that
58:15
take hold in as big a way as Bob Marley did, but that's a
58:17
great goal to strive for, and you can do that and have fun at
58:22
the same time because the music is very accessible. Bob Marley and the Whaler
58:28
is the Ultimate Illustrated History. It's out January sixteenth, that is next week.
58:32
You can order it through all the usual outlets. It's from Motor Books,
58:37
and people can find you online. Richie, you have your own website
58:42
and I already have the link ready to go. It's in the show notes
58:45
page, and lots of things that people can find on there, including some
58:49
courses that you teach that people can find out about on your website Richie Unterberger
58:53
dot com. Yes, I teach it all education courses and one of maybe
59:00
the only really good thing about having to adjust the way we live after the
59:04
pandemic. Everyone almost everybody uses zoom now and the classes are available on zoom.
59:09
I don't want to make this too much of a commercial. I'm based
59:13
in the Bay Area, but if you're interested, even if you don't live
59:15
in the Bay Area, you can be in Connecticut like you are, or
59:21
Florida or Mexico, Canada. I've had students from Mexico and Canada. You
59:25
can tune into the courses and if you don't want to pay a fee,
59:30
but just sample what I do. Twice a month for a San Francisco nonprofit
59:36
San Francisco Community Living campaign. I do ninety minute shows on specific artists and
59:42
styles, using a lot of audio visual material and the information for logging into
59:47
those It's on my website on the what's news section. Thanks so much for
59:52
doing this, Richie, and congrats on the book. Thank you. That's
1:00:02
it. It's in the box.