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- Nadine Navarro: All right, everybody, welcome. It is my pleasure to introduce to you today Wayne Bassist. Wayne practiced law for years, from big law to small law, and built a very successful practice of his own in commercial litigation and corporate bankruptcy. One car accident and eight spinal surgeries later, Wayne was forced to give up his practice. What came out, however, from the other side was truly a mission. Wayne discovered the neuroscience-based mental fitness tools that transform his life, and today he's the founder and CEO of ESQ Mental Fitness, a performance coach, trainer, speaker, and an accredited CLE instructor. Most importantly, Wayne was recently quoted saying that as AI transforms legal practice, our greatest competitive advantage is no longer access to information. It's our mental fitness. So Wayne, welcome to the show. I'm super excited to get into this topic with you today. Wayne Basist: Well, it is great to be here, Nadine. Thanks for having me on your podcast. Nadine Navarro: A pleasure. So I'd like for you to tell us a little bit more about your transition from law before coaching lawyers. what did you see in the profession that made you decide that the real problem wasn't the work in legal but the mind doing it? Wayne Basist: I had the experience of of starting in big law, then working in some smaller boutique firms, and then deciding to start my own law practice, as you referenced. Now, the one of the things that I didn't realize at the time was that I was always blaming the challenges I was having in managing the demands and pressure of the practice, you know, was what was happening and going on with me internally. I always thought that the reason I was always so stressed and anxious and when I was in big law, the pressures there were overwhelming and it was making me sick. Boutique firms, even though the pressure was was not quite the same, billable hour demands weren't the same. I was still experiencing the same challenges with my stress and anxiety. and I thought starting my own firm was gonna help with that because now I'd be my own boss and I would have more control. Nadine Navarro: And then what happened? Wayne Basist: Right. And so it wasn't long before I realized how gravely mistaken I was because now not only did I have to handle the client matters, but I had to bring in the business. And manage a firm, and ultimately we had 15 employees, and that actually took the challenges I was experiencing to like a whole other level. And so, as you mentioned, you know, unfortunately, I, suffered severe injuries in an auto accident, not only did it break me physically. But it broke me mentally, it broke me emotionally, and even spiritually. And so I ended up you know, going through years of trying to heal from other conditions like major depression, PTSD, and then further complicated by addiction to opioid medications. So I went through this long journey, and you know, through this journey, both being in that rehab as well as going through some intensive psychiatric. care. I started to realize that the problem or the source of the problem was not the practice. it wasn't opposing counsel, it wasn't judges, clerks, or my own team members or clients. It was me. The problem, the challenge was me and and what was happening internally in my mind that was driving all of this. intense anxiety and stress. And while I was in it, I couldn't see it. Even though I was going to therapy, I just couldn't see it. So the accident actually afforded me an opportunity as I was doing a lot of in inner work to reflect back and go, wow. it was me. that's where the problem actually originated. Nadine Navarro: So how did you first find positive intelligence and the mental fitness program itself? Wayne Basist: I've come to learn that there just are no coincidences in life. They seem like they're coincidences, but in my experience they're they're just not. so I literally had started doing some health and life coaching. I had gotten certified and one day out of the just the blue, an old friend of mine reaches out and he wants to know because he had heard I was doing some coaching work if I would be interested in doing this mental fitness training program with him. Now I didn't know anything about it other than it was based on actual medical and and neuroscientific research. And this was my attitude. It was like, this is not a coincidence. Somehow I'm intended to do this. So let's just go with it. And so that's how I ended up being introduced to Positive Intelligence. So that Nadine Navarro: Okay. Wayne Basist: that's how I found my way to it. Nadine Navarro: Wow. Okay. right? You've you've taught Wayne Basist: Sure. Nadine Navarro: now this program to a few of the Ayla chapters and and you've been teaching it for years at multiple organizations. tell the audience a little bit more about what it is and the saboteurs and whi which Wayne Basist: Certainly. Nadine Navarro: of the saboteurs are most popular for lawyers. Wayne Basist: the framework that was developed and methodology came out of a desire by this s chief executive at a life coaching training company who wanted to see if he could come up with a systematic way that we could interact with our external world and be able to perform at our peak, particularly when we're under pressure. So they set out first to see if they could in practical terms identify what are the root causes for why we get stressed or anxious or experience any other negative emotions in that regard. And after conducting some factored research, they came up with a conclusion that we all have ten recurring negative thought patterns. And to make it easier for people to understand that, they actually gave these thought patterns names. And those names became known as our saboteurs. So these recurring thought patterns are things such as we all have, and it's the strongest of these 10, it kind of drives all the others, is that we all have a judge inner critic. We stop and think about it. We are constantly judging ourselves. We're not smart enough, unexperienced enough. Who am I to think that I could do this, that, and the other thing? and that is causes us a lot of stress and anxiety. and it's very depleting. And we judge others. And some of us think that, you know, if I say to myself, I'm smarter than that person, or I'm more experienced than that lawyer. we think it's making us feel better, but it's actually a negative mind state of mind. Okay. And of course we can judge circumstances and we generally will say things that don't happen go our way. they're just bad, it's terrible, and you know, we can almost catastrophize things. So they also characterize these other thought patterns as the accomplice saboteurs. So the ones that are very common among attorneys are ones such as what we call them the controller. So that's the individual who is seeking to control others, control circumstances, could be micromanagers. you know, lawyers can, you know, if they delegate, they still are expecting work product that is how they would do it. And so Nadine Navarro: Mm-hmm. Wayne Basist: there can be a lot of hovering and micromanagement taking place, or they go ahead and say, you know what, I'm just taking this project back because I can do it the way I want and get it done faster. But without realizing that the micromanaging is distra and because it's not just it's causing this anxiety and stress and that's bad, but it is completely undermining their cognitive capabilities. And to be able to perform at their best. And so they do this thinking it's in their best interests. But in the meantime, there are tasks that only they can do, and those are just sitting. So that creates this background simmering. There's hyper achievers. Achievement, listen, we wouldn't be lawyers if we weren't, you know, successful and accomplished high achievers, but some of us go too far. And for us, our whole sense of self, self-worth, self-esteem is wrapped up in those those accomplishments. And so if I don't accomplish, you know, some desired goal, I mean, look, if I have a emotion hearing and the hyperachiever is like, you know, yes, want to win, but you can build it up to a point where like when you lose, that it you can be, you overreact. And you can feel really devastated and you could start having all kinds of negative thoughts. And one other one that is really funny because I've added a term to it. So we call it the stickler, which is perfectionism, right? Hey, as lawyers, we've got to do good work. We want to have high standards. Certain things do need to be perfect. However, not everything. So it c creates a situation where you you develop these maladaptive perfectionist tendencies. and Nadine Navarro: yeah. Wayne Basist: I joke, and I think you've heard me share this before, which is that I'm the master of the three sentence 30 minute email. You just have you been there? Nadine Navarro: yeah, I perspective. Wayne Basist: You ever done that? Nadine Navarro: yeah, I I know a lot of people that do this in law. I think perfectionism is huge. And I like to remind our clients that if everything is important, nothing is important, you have to be able obviously to let go of everything being this need to be perfect and important, but that's a huge one. All of those are I can definitely relate with a lot of those saboteurs, if not all that you mentioned, I think most lawyers could. Wayne Basist: And I'll kind of give you, I'll speak in a little bit of technology terms, because when people, you know, in being able to better understand the nature of this particular approach, you know, our brain is our operating system. And so these negative thought patterns, which actually were developed from the time we were kids. So quick example is if your parent was a perfectionist and insisted on perfectionism, you as a kid, well, you realize that I you need to do things perfectly, otherwise your mommy or daddy are not gonna like you, love you, or you know, you're gonna disappoint them. Well, that's what you did as a survival mechanism when you're young. But as you become an adult, now it works, it's it's really working against you. So think of those thought patterns as if they're older programs that are still inside of even a new, you know, advanced operating system. And so they're hidden. You don't really know that necessarily there, but they can be there. And when things become more pressure packed, those old programs, they they become stronger. And they and they further undermine the efficiency of the operating system. And so Nadine Navarro: I love that. I like that analogy. So let's let's get into a little bit of this AI and the AI wave in law. So let's talk about it through the lens of this saboteurs methodology. When a lawyer is using AI for the first time and trying a new AI tool, which of these saboteurs do you think comes up for them? Wayne Basist: Well, what I would say is that again, right, it's all about the individual's sort of predisposition and which of these patterns are most prominent in their lives. so for some people, if you are, you know, a perfectionist or what we call in the the framework a stickler, right away. You're gonna feel like, I gotta master this. I need to know how to use, right away, it's like, I've got to figure out how to be able to do this perfectly. I need to use all aspects. Or, you know, if you're a hyperachiever, you're like, yeah, I'm gonna be the person that is the master of this new technology. And so your mindset is is controlled by those thoughts. Or if you're you know subject to greater hyper-vigilant tendency, which means you're always watching out for the next bad thing to happen. And so initially, right away the thought becomes like, my god, like what if I don't learn how to really master this? And how am I gonna learn how to use all aspects of it? And if I don't, then it's gonna have all kinds of negative consequences. the technology is just technology, right? It it's just there as a tool. But it's because what our mindset is and just our natural long established neural pathways, which is what directs all of our thoughts, behaviors, actions, That's how you will react to this new platform. so so right at Nadine Navarro: That's fascinating. And I would say I could validate that is how people have told me the view. It's either you're skeptical about it or you're overwhelmed. Like, my god, everybody's talking about it and now I'm behind, right? There's those people that you see at conferences and now that AI is banned so much. They see it everywhere. They're like, I'm overwhelmed and now I feel like I'm behind. And then there's of course the ones that are far ahead where they are like. Building whole technical systems. And I'm like, are you still practicing law? So there's there's a lot of different personalities. Wayne Basist: Right. Yeah. it's created an enormous, you know, enormous fear. and that fear, you know, preys upon whatever these sort of natural thought processes are for each one of us. my my perspective is that honing our cognitive capabilities, our human capabilities, to enable us to have that greater focus and to have you know to be mentally clear so that you're able to exercise the sound judgment that's now critical in how we utilize this technology and the information it's it's it's generating for us. And this is something that I'm very focused on right now is is helping people to understand how critically important it is. for us to actually literally be able to think clearly. Because if we're not thinking clearly, we may not use it responsibly, let's put it that way, meaning we might use it improperly or unethically, which of course we both know lawyers are getting s slammed all across the country for not using it responsibly. Nadine Navarro: for sure. And you've mentioned in your work HBR's research on b brain fry. can you talk a little bit about what that could look like for a lawyer or or for a law firm at large? Wayne Basist: Absolutely. you have this wonderful technology that can generate enormous amounts of information. the challenge now is you've got to work through all that information. So one when we speak in terms of brain fry, we're we're talking about how in effect it's created this additional layer of work. that lawyers now have to do in order to use the technology. So it's like, yeah, if you weren't having to sift through all that, you could you might get certain things done more effectively. But the reality is in the culture is like, hey, you know, if that attorney's using it and that attorney's using it, then I have to be using it. and it has you know it's demands a lot of really focused attention and concentration So there's the actual mechanical process that you have to go through in verifying all of it, that creates mental fatigue, physical fatigue, right? But then there's all of the inner emotional responses and reactivity that's occurring that's also draining. Because there's just this fear, fear, fear, fear, fear. for some people, it it is creating overload, when you do AI research, you almost always get more information than you're expecting. you have this technology that just gives you a data dump, right? So we now have to try to balance that with everything else that's going on. within the big firm, big law, what I've heard said is that their expectation now is that the young associates are gonna be masters of this new technology. Now imagine new young associate and you have you have all the pressure and challenges of being a brand new lawyer and now you're expected to really know how to utilize this this new fast evolving technology. Now small firms, solo practitioner, even more because you're all alone. in having to try to learn how to master the use of that technology as well as having these additional burdens of verification Nadine Navarro: Mm. Wayne Basist: and Nadine Navarro: AI has shuffled the work that we do. And we've always viewed our work as research, writing, speaking, arguing. and now AI is staring us in our face and saying, Well, I can research and write in sub ten seconds, right? A lot of attorneys can use the technology improperly, like you said, allowing it to do everything, not reviewing it thoroughly. And then we're starting to see these ethical issues. So you're mentioning that Senior partners are expecting the young associates to understand this technology and to potentially implement it. and firms need to have AI policy. You can't just expect employees to bring their own habits, good or bad, into your firm and create that the AI policy this way or not have one at all. And two, the question of Is I don't understand this technology going to become an ethics problem, right? Not just a skill gap because not understanding the technology may violate ABA opinion five twelve that says that you must understand the AI that your firm uses. Wayne Basist: well it's interesting because Texas has a rule that came out about it's now, considered a part of the competence education and the expectation that the attorney is going to have a reasonable understanding of how to use generative AI. Nadine Navarro: I like to equate it to when QuickBooks and all this accounting technology came out back in the day and the accountants were all thinking we're gonna lose our jobs, right? There's an automation technology now that can do your taxes. And now I can't imagine a single CPA that would ever want to do that stuff manually. And of course we've all seen the attorneys in the headlines with the fake AI citations. but you know it's got me thinking since we're in the topic of mental fitness, like how often are these failures really an AI failure? Or how often is it more of a mental fitness failure like the person exhausted or on autopilot when they reviewed it, right? just the way a junior associate or a law clerk can hand you a brief with a bad citation in it or misspelled citation and improperly cited holding, and we have to review that. AI because it sounds so good, we're allowing our saboteurs to let us pass, you know, when we're tired or rushing, etcetera. Wayne Basist: Right. Yes. And I'll tell you something else too, that again, because there's a lot of fear in the profession right now, right? That that lawyers won't be needed as much and AI can do the and I I kind of want to help attorneys understand that the human element is critical. but here's another challenge has has occurred. clients are using AI to try to answer Nadine Navarro: yeah. Wayne Basist: their own legal questions, and they're coming to attorneys essentially trying to tell the attorney, like, okay, this is what we should do. And the attorney, you know, has to be able to, you know, thoughtfully and mindfully Nadine Navarro: Yeah, Wayne Basist: deal with that with the clients. Nadine Navarro: Mm. Wayne Basist: and you know, that's an entirely, you know, new and and novel situation for sure. I know that pro se filings in general are way up. which is presenting all kind that's a whole other conversation about the the complications Nadine Navarro: Huge can of worms there for sure. Because not only are clients coming to attorneys with a block of text for an email that is now creating more work for us to get back. It's basically my AI is talking to your AI and explaining to each other via email But an even bigger issue there is that Heppner case that came out of the federal court where the client used. Claude to talk about his case and then that got subpoenaed. And they found that there's no privilege there because it's not work product because it's not the attorney that did it. and Wayne Basist: Right. Nadine Navarro: it's one it's also there's no confidentiality with AI. So there's this issue of now we have to protect from our AI disclosing all these pertinent facts about their case to AI, which is a huge can of worms that could deserve an entire other podcast episode. But yeah, I think that's something Wayne Basist: And I I'd like to add Nadine Navarro: Issues being injected into the profession. Wayne Basist: and I and exactly. And this goes back to the reference to brain fry, right? It's all these all this additional you know the all these additional issues that have to be addressed. What I consider to be the good news is that I I think we have quickly found that the role of our you know humanness is still critical and even more so right now, even though as a you know the technology is extraordinarily helpful, but it is a tool. It's a technology, right? And and Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Wayne Basist: ultimately how we utilize it is what's most important and critical. And how we use it starts from what are we, what's going on within our minds and our our thought processes. Nadine Navarro: For sure. The technology is definitely stretching the profession quite a bit. we're in a growth phase, pretty similar to b the big internet boom and previous technology booms before. I try to remind our clients that, you know, these technology shifts and waves, like they happen over many years. It always feels overwhelming at first because you're gonna be seeing them everywhere on social media talking about Claude, talking about Chat GPT, talking about all this tech, all these things that they're doing. and that overwhelm is real. Also, all of the really cool ads I'm getting every freaking day for a new AI tech that can do just about anything these days. And you're like, should I be trying that or what about that? Or social media marketing, or this app does this other thing really well, or this app can chat inside Slack and do all these things. So There's also this big rush to the candy, right? Like everybody wants the candy while also being overwhelmed. So I I like to remind people that it's a long game. We do have a responsibility of adopting responsibly. So if for you that means slowly, that's much better than adopting a bunch of stuff quickly or you know, not having the right time to learn it and and really adopt ethically into our practices, right? Create policies, teach the people that you're asking to use. Cause another thing we're seeing in firms is, the law firm signs up for a product like Drafty and they just give it out to the paralegals, hey, we're using Drafty now, just run your cases here. That is no Wayne Basist: Yeah. Nadine Navarro: formal change management at all. Not only do you need a policy of hey, these are the ways that we prefer to use the tool so that it's safe or the way we prefer, but you also need change management. that means training. It means some people are gonna Wayne Basist: Mm-hmm. Nadine Navarro: be slower to adopt than others. It means some people are gonna be more proficient, some are less. that type of training and ability to help with change management is going to become, I think, probably. a new hire in many firms, a change management expert, someone that, you know, asks the owner of the firm, which is usually the induced one at adopting new efficient technology, starts throwing technology at us. that hire would probably be the one to train, the one to go to with questions, the one to address anything that keeps the firm from adopting Kingston block, different staff, et cetera. And that person's not usually an IT person, because IT usually knows general tech or one specific tech. This person would be an expert in training, an expert in human behavior, human adoption, and that sort of stuff. it'll be interesting to see that. And like you said, it's just another change that is happening and that might be overwhelming. From one perspective, but I think it's also exciting. the law could use a change. it's been one of those professions that have been old school for so long. that for me, while the ethical duties are super important, having policies, having training, having proper change management is important, it's also really exciting what can change because I love the idea of the law becoming more. empathetic, more human aspect, right? Like the lawyers get more time with the clients and less time with this admin stuff that can now be automated. so that's Wayne Basist: Right. Nadine Navarro: the exciting aspect for me. It's also challenging, right? Because I feel like a lot of attorneys struggle with the wellness stuff, right? Going to therapy, becoming more empathetic. A lot of us are very practical thinkers. So it'll be interesting the shift. Wayne Basist: Which is yeah, which is sorry to interrupt you there, because that's that's another also common saboteur among attorneys is what we refer to as the hyper rational. Nadine Navarro: Mm. Wayne Basist: you know, there are many attorneys that are that are brilliant and extremely intellectual, but you know, kind of lacking in emotions, it's difficult for them to connect with others emotionally. they don't like understand it. and particularly in those critical client attorney relationships. You know, because again, I think on a certain level, AI is going to create in a sense its own degree of brain fry among just the, you know, non-lawyer community. You know, the the clients themselves that are going to go down rabbit holes, you know, in researching things that are going to get them potentially all stirred up. emotionally and showing up to that very first meeting of an attorney on the very positive side, look, I have a lot of fun with it you're right, we're going through a time of of enormous change. we could talk for days on this Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Wayne Basist: subject for sure. And I really appreciate it. Nadine Navarro: Do you have sorry to interrupt you? I was gonna ask, Wayne Basist: No, go ahead, please. Nadine Navarro: do you have a practical reset that a lawyer may be able to do at his desk? sitting down to either work on AI or not, but just sitting down at your desk to work, what would be a good practical reset that you could share? Something they could do maybe for five minutes before they begin working? Wayne Basist: What there's a fundamental little mindfulness technique. there's specific ones that I that I teach but in general you can actually invent your own, which is this. if we use our five senses, so we take our five senses and let's take touch, all right. One of the little mindfulness techniques that that I share is where you, you know, I always encourage, you know, taking two, three really deep breaths and exhales and really letting emptying out all of that air and and you know starting to calm the nervous system down. and then turning to our senses. So like using touch, literally taking your thumb and forefinger. And just rubbing the fingertips together and focusing intently on feeling the ridges of your fingertips. In order to do that, you have to be 100% focused on that touch. Well, guess what's happening? It is really quieting your brain down, bringing the mind to a place of stillness. I had a call earlier today and I was getting I was getting kind of stressed and anxious beforehand. I could feel it. And I went and I used the touch, using some breath, using sound? where you focus on one sound and just intently focus on that one sound to the point where you block everything out. you can start your day with the most wonderful daily reset whether you go to the gym, yoga Meditation, journaling, prayer, inspirational reading, and you start your day, and you're like, Yes, I'm ready to take on the day. And then the day gets started, and you start getting really distracted, and you're thinking a gazillion things, or you're starting to feel stressed or anxious, getting frustrated, whatever, and it's like, okay, now what do I do? So that's what these techniques are designed to do. Because literally, 30 seconds. Of just this with that intense focus is gonna calm and quiet your mind down. They saw this on the studies they were doing, and you are now gonna have maximum concentration, focus back, and you're gonna be able to think more clearly. So use your senses. you're drinking your coffee, focus on really feeling the taste or the tea, or whatever else you may be drinking or eating. Really simple, practical. But it doesn't require, even five minutes of seconds, couple of moments, couple of minutes. and through repetitive practice, you actually develop new neural pathways where your brain starts to understand, okay, time to relax. and it's it's really super effective. When I do my classes, That's one of the takeaways that they always love are the little techniques, because they can't believe how there it is in the middle of the day, in the middle of a s a seminar or a webinar, and they're that I can quiet their brains down to where they're like, wow. And that was only a minute or two. those are some of the tools I use. let me just add this. I want to spotlight the difference. getting up to walk away from your computer, get outside, take a walk, no question, those are helpful. But they don't really give your brain the break it really needs. Because think about it. When you're on that walk, what are you thinking about? More likely than not, you're still thinking about your work. You may Nadine Navarro: Yeah. Wayne Basist: not be in front of the computer. And this is the kind of approach that is intended to. really give your brain a break and that's what we need much more of as the AI technology and just technology in general continues to you know evolve and create additional work additional responsibilities and so forth Nadine Navarro: No doubt, no doubt, mental fitness is definitely going to be a huge skill to have moving forward. And the ability to unplug is is clearly becoming more and more valuable. So for my last question, let's picture a mentally fit attorney five years from now working alongside AI. What does their day look like? Wayne Basist: I would summarize it the big picture is that they're gonna feel more balanced they're going to operate at much higher levels of efficiency They're not going to, if you're cognitively fit, you're going to be able to utilize that AI technology or any other technology that that comes along to its fullest. You'll be performing at your best. you'll be more productive. you're going to have more time in your life to create that healthier work-life integration that Everyone desires the term work like balance is used a lot these days. The younger attorneys really want that. I am trying to shift their thinking from not balance because that's not going to happen. You're not going be have equal amounts of personal time and professional unless you don't sleep, right? So I look forward to seeing what it's gonna look like five years from now for for sure. And I'm gonna do my part to, help outfit the attorneys with the the mental cognitive skills so they're able to go through this change and this transition in a way that's frankly gonna be more effective and healthier for him. Nadine Navarro: Wayne, where can people learn more about your work if they wanna work with you? Wayne Basist: Sure. you can contact me through my website, which is esqmentalfitness.com. you can reach me through my LinkedIn. I'm the only Wayne Bassist in the world that I know of. and so you can message me that way. My email is wbassist at esqmentalfitness.com. I'll just add that I offer a free saboteur assessment to evaluate your performance capabilities. I offer one-on-one coaching, small group cohorts. I do a lot of public speaking on this and I have a series of CLE ethics courses that I am delivering all the time. Nadine Navarro: Thank you so much for being with us today. It's been a pleasure. Wayne Basist: Well thank you. This was fun, have a wonderful rest of your day today.