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How Walking Barefoot Can Improve Mobility and Reduce Pain With Mark Sisson · Non-Toxic Living

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  anywhere from 77 to 83% of Americans complain of foot pain at some point.
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  That makes the 17% of us that don't have foot pain outliers, where it should be the other way around.
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  We're encountering a situation where the use of this footwear over the decades starting from people
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  are in so much pain because of their feet because of that chain that you talked about.
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  Out of all the biohacker health influencers you look the part and a lot of these folks that are
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  doing a lot of these different biohacks. They just don't look good. I don't do all the crazy stuff.
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  Yeah. And I think I look decent for 51, but you look amazing. How old are you 16?
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  No, 72. 72. Look at this guy. I mean, to look like you do it 72, you get proofs in the pudding.
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  The notion that our modern footwear is destroying our feet has pretty much been proven scientifically,
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  feet are the foundation of every movement that we make. The only people that should be running
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  are runners. And by that, I mean like ectomorphs with large lung capacity, high pain tolerance
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  in long legs. No one else should be running. They should be
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  Marxists and welcome to the show. How are you today? I'm great. Thanks for having me, Warren.
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  Yeah, this is really pretty fortuitous. I want to just quickly introduce you because I saw you
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  back at PaleoFx and I want to tell that story because it was a beautiful story. You just had
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  this amazing exit from Primal Kitchen. And in this space, we have a lot of health influence
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  res out there and individuals that are trying to make a difference in this world. And then once
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  they have the big exit, they're super popular. You are foundational in changing nutrition in America,
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  right? You're one of the OGs. And I walk up to you and you treat me just like you treat me today,
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  you know, just as a parent. Why wouldn't I? But that's a thing. Why wouldn't, why wouldn't we?
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  Yeah. Because no one's special. Yeah. More importantly, we do want to talk today about the new
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  area of disruption. You disrupted food. Yeah. And now you're going to disrupt feet because our
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  feet are poisoning our bodies and pretty much a pretty toxic, like toxic footwear. Yeah. And it's
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  trashing pain that I want the audience to hear from you, not me. So welcome to the show.
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  Thanks for having me. Yeah. So we're not talking about toxic. We're not talking about the chemicals
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  here. We're talking about the misalignment of toes and the destruction of the mechanics of the
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  foot as a result of years of wearing these restrictive shoes. We can talk about, you know,
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  what the foot is supposed to be doing. It's, I mean, we're born barefoot. We're supposed to be
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  living barefoot. But, you know, we've created this universe where every, every surface is compromised
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  with pavement or concrete or hardwood floors or marble or tile or glass or mother earth is covered.
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  Yeah. So we have to, we have to figure out a way to navigate the planet and with a barefoot
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  like feel with allowing our feet to do what our feet want to do, which is they want to feel the
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  ground they want to inform the brain of exactly how to organize the entire kinetic chain
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  with every step. So like every time you wait the forward foot, when you take a step, by the time
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  you, you put the weight on that forward foot, the brain has all the information it needs on exactly
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  how to scrunch the arch or articulate the toes up and down to accommodate the divot that you're
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  stepping in or the stick that you're stepping on. How much to roll the ankle to offset the tilt of
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  that so that it doesn't screw the knee up because the knee only works in one plane. The ankle moves
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  in a, in a, basically a pivot, a 360 replay. And so your ankle is supposed to roll. So people who
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  roll their ankle or spray their ankle is because they're weak, they're weak, and they've lost that
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  ability to allow it to roll with its rain. Anyway, so it's silly. Yeah. So I went from food,
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  changed the way the world eats to footwear, changed the way the world thinks about walking in
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  foot health. I'm going to keep going down foot health and talking about back pain problems are
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  with that. But I want to mention two things. One, with primal kitchen, when you sold that company,
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  you've still maintained, they've maintained a lot of those agreements. So when these big companies
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  buy, when you have good founders like you, they're maintaining that level of great ingredients. As a
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  matter of fact, I recommend your stuff on Costco videos, millions and millions of people say,
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  hey, this isn't mayonnaise, but they have primal kitchen like this old school, you know, first
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  disruptive product and it tastes delicious. It's better than all the other mayo that we use as a
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  family and that's something. Yeah. This is what non toxic dad uses in his house. So I'm going to
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  commend you for that. Yeah. And it's not like these evil companies can take over when there's
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  good founders like you that stay involved and you have the original team. So I just want to let
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  everybody. Yeah. This is pretty damn cool. No, but it's cool. But it's also you have to understand
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  that a large of these big food companies aren't really evil people rubbing their hands together.
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  Everyone, how can we screw things up? Yeah, they're occasions where they'll buy a brand and they'll
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  figure out ways to use cheaper ingredients or to, you know, economize and extract more margin.
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  But with with our product, because our product was always based on the highest level premium
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  ingredients, you can't that that's the nature of our brand. So you can't buy the company and then
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  go, yeah, we're going to, you know, use crappy ingredients just as the work it way. So we craft
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  when craft bought us, they're like, we love what you're doing. We want you to do more of it.
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  We want to give you the resources to be able to continue to build on the product line to improve
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  the products with great ingredients. We'll stand back. We'll give you the resources. We'll give
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  you the money. We'll give you advertising. We'll give you distribution. You keep your team.
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  Just build the company within the craft family, which is what we've done. And so now the the
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  companies, you know, six times larger than when I sold it to them. And we're in virtually every
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  food store. And we're on eight. I mean, I was in Whole Foods the other day. We're on, you know,
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  we're in the pasta aisle. We're in the condiments aisle. We're in the ketchup. I wouldn't
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  salad dressing aisle. We're all over the place. We're in like six or eight different aisles with
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  our products. So it's really cool because a lot of people like try to get a viral video just
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  beating these things up. And in this case, your disruption six acts by making this partnership
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  with craft. And I know that when you negotiated this thing, this was this was part of the deal. So
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  I want to thank you for that. Appreciate that. The other thing, by the way, is change the way the
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  world eats includes lifting other companies, inviting other companies to participate in the same
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  arena where they make better for you products based on the competitive nature of what we're doing.
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  So absolutely. We've had a lot of other companies enter the realm of healthy foods and
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  particularly condiments. And great. I love it because now it gives access to more and more
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  families. I'm using one. I ordered from Whole Foods. It was it was a substitute because
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  years was sold out. So so I've got a substitute of another another product similar yours. I like
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  yours better. Yeah. And so I want to thank you for that. And the last thing I want to say about
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  biohacking. And then let's talk about more a foot pain and why people are in so much pain because
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  of their feet because of that chain that you talked about is that out of all the
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  biohacker health influencers, you look the part. And a lot of these folks that are doing a lot
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  of these different biohacks, they just don't look good. I don't do all the crazy stuff. Yeah.
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  And I think I look decent for 51. But you look amazing. How old are you 60? No, 72.
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  72 freaking two. Look at this guy. I mean, to look like you do it 72, you proofs in the putting.
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  You're in connection with nature. It's primal living. Your feet, the connection. You're just
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  working with nature because nature is not our enemy. It's a friend. Of course. And so it's a
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  beautiful thing. So I want to thank you for for leading the way. And more people need to get
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  connected and be primal. So let's let's talk about modern footwear. Yeah. The toxic. We're not
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  talking chemicals, but the the toxic nature of footwear and how it's causing a lot of low back pain,
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  knee pain. Yeah. I mean, most most shoes just people are suffering. Yeah. They interfere with
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  their biomechanics. No, there's a American podiatric association claims various sensory numbers
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  anywhere from 77 to 83% of Americans complain of foot pain at some point. Well, you know, so that makes
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  that makes the 17% of us that don't have foot pain outliers where it should be the other way around.
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  So we're, you know, we're we're encountering a situation where the use of this footwear over
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  the decades, starting from the first time your parents could fit you into those cute little
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  sneakers. And they smash that little foot in there. It's it's it's criminal, right? So
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  but then we, you know, we we maintain that sort of allegiance to fashion and
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  wearing the, you know, the whether it's the narrow pointy heels that women wear or the the
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  Italian slippers that men wear into sportswear where a lot of the shoes, even though they claim to be
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  wide, you know, like new balance came in with a wide toe box shoe, but it's still it's still still
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  to a point is still the toe still it would it would only it would only work if it was a V-shaped shoe
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  with, you know, the widest part being at the at the toes. So even a lot of the brands that have
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  claimed to be technologically advanced Nike, you know, created the the cushion shoes so that
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  more runners could run more miles without without suffering the jolts and jarring that the original
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  good runners were suffering on the Oregon track club, which is why the shoe was invented.
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  The next thing, you know, millions of Americans are running marathons with horrible form
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  with and getting injuries from heel striking. And again, overpronating because their toes is
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  squished, the big toes squished against the other toes, which sort of forces an old pronation.
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  But then they fix it with orthotics. Yeah. No, so it's like you it's like what I call digging a
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  hole to put the ladder and wash medications. No, it's the same exactly the same thing. So the
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  notion that our modern footwear is destroying our feet has pretty much been proven scientifically.
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  Yeah. Now it's just a cultural thing. How do I get people to understand that a minimalist shoe,
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  a wide, thin, flat, flexible shoe is ideal for you to be navigating through life, regardless
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  of what you're doing, whether you're dropping the kids off at school or doing errands or
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  going for a walk or or in the gym or playing a sport, you should be taking care of your feet,
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  because again, feet are the foundation of every movement that we make. And once the feet start to go,
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  you know, I tell people like what mobility is one of the defining factors of longevity. And without
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  mobility, you can't you can't experience the wonders of the world, you know, if you're stuck in a
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  real tear or whatever in a nursing home, okay, you're living longer. But, you know, to what end,
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  my dream here is for everybody to maintain their mobility and agility and resilience as long as they
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  can. And it starts with foot health. And, you know, so I wrote a book last year called Born to Walk.
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  And in this book, I trash the running boom of the last 50 years as having been wholly inappropriate
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  for all, but like 5% of the population. The only people who should be running are runners. And by
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  that, I mean like ectomorphs with large lung capacity, high pain tolerance and long legs. No one
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  else should be running. They should be they can run if they want to, but not metronomically every
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  day, day in and day out, five minute, you know, five miles, eight minutes miles, nine minutes, whatever.
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  It's hard on you. It's it's catabolic. Every time you run, it's catabolic and it takes it takes
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  time to recover from that. So if you do it once a week and you recover from it, okay, but if you're
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  doing it every day, you just tear yourself down. So running, running is not the answer for anyone's
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  anti-aging strategy. It's a horrible way to lose weight. In fact, most people run the lose weight,
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  don't, they're unsuccessful. It's a great way to court injuries. Runners are injured at a
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  greater rate that NFL football players are. So it's like 50% of all runners get, you know, get
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  injured every year. And at any point in time, 25, 25% of people who claim to be runners are injured
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  right now. And it talks about that in the literature, the health benefits of walking versus
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  running. And if you're going to run, you can run on a treadmill and get the same effects. I run
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  on treadmill for movement and bare feet, right? And there's massively more benefits to that than
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  running without the injury, right? So I was a career runner. I ran a hundred miles a week for
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  seven years and then I, when I stopped, I kept running for a while, but I haven't not run a mile
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  in 35 years. And I was a runner. I was a, I was a, you know, a good runner in one of the best in
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  country. And I haven't run and have not run a mile 20 in 35 years. Now I sprint and I play
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  games that they involve a lot of running, but I haven't put on the shoes to go out and run
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  metronomically a mile or two or whatever. Just it's, there's nothing, there's no attraction at all.
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  It's painful every time I do it. So yeah, there's no, I have no desire to run and you still look great.
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  Yeah, as I lift, I lift twice a week. I sprint once in a while. I do stand up paddling.
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  I play a lot. I ride a fat bike on the beach in the deep sand. I do a lot of, I do play for
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  SB still. Look, when I was a runner, my life was about managing discomfort. That's all I did.
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  Every day, the workout, every day, just manage discomfort. How, how much can I hurt
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  in this workout and then train myself to hurt so that when I get to a race, I can hurt even more,
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  right? So it's managing discomfort. In my entire career of competition and endurance events,
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  there was no point wherever at this, you know, after from the time the gun went off until I
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  crossed the finish line, there was no point where I could go, wow, this is fun. I'm out of blast.
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  It's all about managing discomfort. Well, I shifted away from that a long time ago. Like, I want
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  to have fun now. I want to play games. Like, if you're playing, you know, Major League Soccer,
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  you're still having fun out there on the pitch with your, with your mates. You know, there's
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  times like this is great. You know, yeah, you got to dig deep. But in running, it's like there's
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  never a moment where you can cruise back. Oh, this is amazing. No, it's not. So that was a big
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  mindset for me. I want to, I want to, I want to enjoy my life. I want to do the least amount of
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  training necessary to be able to play a lot. So it's sort of this minimum effective dose of,
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  of exercise, which in my mind, which I started talking about again, 20 years ago in the primal
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  blueprint is move around a lot at a low level activity, which is walk walk as much as you can.
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  I want to say one thing you just remind me of something. There's a Nike commercial, right? There's
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  this overweight man running. And as he's pounding the pavement, just, and they're trying to,
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  because that's how they make money is people doing that. And he's sweating and he's pounding.
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  And essentially they're selling weight loss, right? And it's actually the opposite. It's the opposite.
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  And I forget what they, you know, what the tagline was, but it was suffering. This guy was
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  suffering. And they were training you that this suffering is okay, because it's selling their
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  shoes. And they were connecting. This is what, because anyone will do anything for weight loss.
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  Like if you look at the studies, they will literally, well, that's why they overdo a
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  Zempick. I don't care if they lose their, like whatever I can do to lose weight, so I can,
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  I can feel normal, right? And marketing knows that and Nike knew that and they perpetuated a lie.
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  So yeah, throw back to you. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, it's an interesting concept that you,
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  that you have to, that you must struggle and suffer in order to get the body that you want.
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  So my minimum effective dose was lots of walking, lifting twice a week and not for, you know,
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  an hour and a half or whatever, but you know, 35 minutes a session twice a week sprinting once a
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  week and not doesn't have to be a track. It can be on an assault bike and getting your heart rate
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  up as high as you can for 20 seconds. Rest for two minutes. Do it again for 20 seconds. Yeah,
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  that's six times eight times. You're done. So this is sort of the minimum effective dose of exercise.
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  That allows you to have the tools and, and the, and the metabolic capacity to be able to play games,
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  like to play a softball, pick up softball game or basketball or in my case, ultimate frisbee,
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  or go out on a one hour stand up paddle and play with dolphins. Yeah, I love ultimate frisbee.
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  It's such a fun game. So believe it or not, that's exactly what I do. I work out twice a week.
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  I don't have a minute because I'm doing all this stuff. I'm making wrong sacrifices,
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  but I'm not doing the, I do walk. I do all my calls walking. So I walk for an hour and a half,
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  three to five times a week. Yep. I'm just not doing, I have my assault bike. I have my
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  roller. I haven't integrated in this minimal effective dose, but just doing that if you're listening
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  to this and will literally change your life. You don't have to go to the gym. You don't have to,
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  it'll get you 90% of where you need to be. And then you can come off the couch and have a good
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  time with your grandchildren or our children and throw your kids up and catch them and do all the
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  things that people really want to do that bring joy to their life because they want to add value
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  because they want to be present. They don't want to be in pain. So when we're wearing these shoes
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  and we're going to come full circle, it creates pain. When you, there's research that shows when
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  you widen your, your toe spread again, you can eliminate knee pain and back pain and other pain
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  in your, in your life. And yes, there's a transition. When I, when I went to minimalist type shoes and
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  I go barefoot as much as I possibly can, we have to navigate this world. You don't want to be
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  stepping on, I mean, you know, you step on here in Miami. So you, you have a shoe company that
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  allows people to reconnect in this modern world with nature. That's as it possibly can. If you can't
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  go barefoot, I highly recommend it grounding the science. It's not we will. Yeah. Connecting to
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  the magnetic field of the earth and discharging this bad electric fields and these things, these
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  ions attached to yourselves. Yeah. So it's great to ground and it's great to be barefoot. But my
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  feet, my arch has improved my, the, the planar fasciitis that I once had is gone. And that's
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  another thing that the research shows with the toesplay, which is what your shoe is promoting.
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  Yeah. So, you know, people, planar fasciitis, good example. So it's, it really should be
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  diagnosed as planar fasciosis. So anitis is an inflammation that's whatever an osus is sort of
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  more of the death of a tissue. And, and the osus part of planar fasciosis is a lack of circulation.
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  So when you scrunch the big toe against the rest of the, the other toes in, in the shoe, you are
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  creating a, a lack of blood flow from the bottom of, from the leg through and down across all the
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  way out to the end of the toes. That, that blood flow is restricted. And that's when that tissue
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  starts to die. It starts to, and so no amount of rolling or stretching, sometimes the worst thing
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  you can do for, for planar fasciosis. It's just opening up. It's, once you are, are able to abduck
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  the toe away and regain some of that circulation and improve it just through, not through running,
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  not through necessarily doing all kinds of, you know, PT rehab stuff for your feet. Just walking
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  in my shoes, for instance, and walking in a, in a five toe articulated shoe that allows you to
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  conform to the, and every muscle, every intrinsic muscle of the, of the foot to work independently
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  according to the temperature and the texture and the tilt of the ground underneath. You regain
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  that, that mobility, and you regain that resilience, you regain that blood flow. So we're seeing a lot
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  of cases of people amazing, you know, who've, who've had long term planar fasciosis. I mean,
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  people with bunions, whose big toe, you just doesn't, it's now it's bent over across, you know,
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  there's a big knuckle sticking out. Yeah, hammer toe, the infamous hammer toe. That too. And then
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  what else causes hammer toe? And you disengage your, your upper glutes is when you wear sandals, you,
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  you grip a, some of you came up, I just gave a talk, you know, on, on foot strength and foot health.
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  And a doctor came up to me after the talk and he's wearing sandals. I'm like, what do, he says,
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  what about sandals? And, you know, not even like, almost worse. Yeah. Because of that, the,
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  the unnatural grip that you have to do. If you had a strap around the back of it, it'd be a lot,
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  a lot easier, a lot better, but wearing flip flops. No, it disengages. It gives you, it gives you a,
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  a flat butt and a, and a hammer toe. Yeah. And so, and that's one thing I wanted to, I'm going to ask
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  this question again, because there's a powerful thing in that I, I think it's a shocking piece of
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  information that your planar fasciosis is the result of lack of blood flow to the, to your tell.
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  Yeah. There have been a couple of pediatrists who have done research on this recently and,
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  and have shown that that's what's going on. It's not necessary. Look, this, this is that planar
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  fascia part, that planter arch, that windless mechanism is an integral part of your ability to
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  move throughout the world. So to jump and spring and every step it needs and wants to be engaged.
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  Now you have a death of that tissue as a result of lack of a butt flow. It, it, it's going to get
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  irritated every time you take that step. So if, unless you open up the blood flow to that area
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  and regain circulation, that, again, no amount of stretching, and people like stretch in their,
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  in their crappy shoes, which is almost making it worse, or they, you know, they roll it out with a,
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  with a lacrosse ball, which is just, that's causing inflammation now when, in fact, what you really
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  need, it doesn't, it, you need to open that up with that, with abducting, that pulling away,
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  that splaying out of that great toe of that big toe. Now you can do that barefoot, but most
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  people's feet are so messed up already. But once you take your shoes off, they stay. Like people
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  say, what about, like other minimalist footwear that has like a mitten shape, a wide toe box,
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  foot doesn't like automatically find some beautiful natural display inside that. Your foot is still like,
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  now you have this a lot of space inside, but now you're, it's, you're still your nasty,
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  disformed foot is still in there. It's like toxicity. Yeah. I know you have 50 years of being toxic,
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  or 60 years, how long it is. You're not getting, get that out just by putting a, a, a band-aid on it,
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  and putting in a bigger shoe, you have to retrain your, your foot to play as it was, as they,
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  there's a reason that like 20 million pair of toe spreaders and toe spacers have been sold over
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  the past couple of years. People get that their toes are messed up and they want to, but you know,
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  if you sit for an hour with toe spreaders on and watch TV and then, you know, take them off,
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  you haven't done a lot other than like relieve them in the short term. What you want is you want,
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  you want them to be moving independently, articulating and walking on uneven surfaces like cobblestone.
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  We call cobblestones foot candy in, in polo, at polova. And that's where you regain the, the,
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  the display, the natural display, and the natural function of the toes. And the strength. Yeah,
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  for you're not going to get, like, I have wide toe bucks right now. I'm going to get a pair of
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  polovas. I'm not articulating. I'm not strengthening. I mean, I have, I have toe space. Yeah, yeah.
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  So they're more comfortable to wear, but you're not, you're not using your toes the way they're
• 21:37
  supposed to. So this is a really enlightening. Yeah. So this is, this is the difference between,
• 21:41
  again, people say, well, you know, there's lots of barefoot shoes out there. There's people,
• 21:44
  there's shoes that call themselves barefoot or that are minimalist shoes. But unless it has individual
• 21:49
  toes, it's not really foot shaped. And it's not really allowing your foot to do what your foot
• 21:55
  really wants to do, which is conformed like every time you step on a rock or stick or divot or whatever,
• 22:00
  the toe you want the toe to be able to accommodate that change. And then when you, when you step off
• 22:05
  when you roll off it, that's, that's where the toes are going to get stronger and more resilient as
• 22:10
  a result of that's why I tell people like people hike in my, in my shoes a lot. And they look for,
• 22:15
  you know, like bouldering type situations where they can hop from one rock to the next.
• 22:19
  You can't do that in a hiking boot. In a hiking boot, you're, every time you step on a rocky
• 22:23
  boulder is this big, you keep thinking, oh, I'm going to twist my ankle or twist my knee.
• 22:27
  They just lace it up so damn tight. And the, and the shoe is so stiff that it's, it's, again,
• 22:33
  it's preventing the foot from doing exactly what that you want the foot to do in that situation,
• 22:37
  which is to grab around that rock and the grab around that whatever it is that you're,
• 22:42
  that you're stepping on and feel it and conform to it and allow the brain to immediately know.
• 22:47
  This is exactly how much I need to roll the ankle. This is exactly how much I need to scrunch the
• 22:50
  arch. This is exactly how low I need to bend my knee to accommodate the fact that I just stepped
• 22:55
  off a 18 inch ledge to get there. All that information comes from the bottoms of the feet. So
• 23:01
  by the time you, with it, that's why minimalist footwear has to be thin. It has to be thin, wide,
• 23:06
  flat, and flexible with a thin part is allowing the ground feet. And ground feels like the most
• 23:11
  important part of this whole equation. So it's got to be great for brain health too. Yeah,
• 23:14
  yeah, it's neuromuscular education. Well, so then the big toe is directly linked to the brain.
• 23:20
  If you follow anything about reflexology, like if you Google reflexology right now, look at the
• 23:24
  map of a foot and you have people who come and work on your feet and you hear your liver,
• 23:28
  here's your kidney, here's your, yeah, the brain is the big toe. There's some research now looking
• 23:33
  into the fact that if I restrict my big toe my entire life, especially as I get older in
• 23:39
  orthopedic accommodating shoes that are clowns or orthopedic approved or podiatrist. I'm going to
• 23:47
  choose right. I'm going to invent a new term called orthopedic dementia. But I mean it's like
• 23:52
  you, but if you can't use that big toe can't, can't feel the ground and sense the ground and the
• 23:58
  connection through the glute up to the, up to the brain, there's, there's a, there's a real connection
• 24:03
  there. I'd love to have a study done on people wearing five toe shoes for years and then see what
• 24:09
  happens with the, the decrease in the risk for, you know, laid on sit dimension. This is amazing.
• 24:14
  It's, I mean, it's not rocket science. It's, it's right in front of our faces. Yeah. It's,
• 24:18
  it's nature. Yeah. And our connection to nature is key, primal living, you're a foundational
• 24:24
  part of changing the world. You look the part, you live the part, you're an amazing human,
• 24:29
  you're kind. And we're, we're just doing, you did an amazing job. And I just want to thank you
• 24:34
  for being on the show. And I want to know how people can find you. I got to respect your time.
• 24:38
  Yeah. No. Um, I'm on Instagram. I'm a Mark Sisson primal. Mm hmm. And, um, on, uh, the shoe
• 24:46
  company is Palova PELUVA Palova.com. All right. And on Instagram, the, the shoe company is
• 24:52
  Wear Palova W-E-A-R Palova. Um, we have, you know, a lot of followers, a lot, like thousands of
• 24:58
  testimonials about people's lives being changed, like, rediscovering walking and actually,
• 25:04
  not just enjoying it, but wanting to walk a lot. Yeah. I did a little research before you came on.
• 25:08
  And I saw that natural leather brown pair with a natural leather base. And I'm, I know,
• 25:13
  those up. Cool. Um, for myself and my family. So thank you so much for being on the show.
• 25:16
  Of course, my pleasure. All right.