Latest / Democracy Tomorrow / Spain's Housing Rights Election!
Transcript
- Scott Leckie: Hey everybody, it's Scott Leckie from Democracy Tomorrow coming to us from Madrid in Spain. Spain has undergone quite a crisis lately in the housing sector, and this is could easily be called the world's first housing rights election. The new elections were recently called for the latter part of or the end of November by current Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez. All of this came about in connection to a very widely publicized eviction case of an eighty-seven year old woman who'd been living in her apartment in Madrid for most of her life, who was going to be threatened with eviction. There was a big protest, lots of international news coverage of this, and eventually she was evicted and then reinstated into her house and then sadly, tragically, subsequently died. Housing rights and housing issues have been prominent on the political agenda of Spain for many, many years. Housing prices have gone through the roof, leading to a huge number of younger people living with their parents until late their 30s, making most housing in the country unaffordable to most people. there are migration issues involved, there are landlords power vis-a-vis tenant issues involved, there are constitutional issues involved, and so on and so forth. Today we have with us housing rights expert and resident of that very same town, Madrid, Spain, Jose Ariza, with us again on Democracy Tomorrow to give us the inside look at what's going on in Madrid, what's going on in Spain, and how is the current campaign for the election heating up and what is the likely outcome. So with that, Welcome to Democracy Tomorrow. Jose, it's great to have you back. Jose Arraiza: Thank you. Thank you very much. The housing rights issue has exploded in Spain. has taken the politicians by surprise. They were not talking about housing at this moment, but this eviction of Marie Carmen, which is one of thousands of evictions that happened every year, has been really the drop that has spilled the beans and the people have taken it to the streets. They have camped in the famous Seoul Square, very similarly to the 15M movement that happened years ago with the financial crisis. But this time it's even stronger. It's really a massive protest that has polarized society. has brought also hundreds of far-right protesters just to protest against these housing rights. movement and it has really put the issue of housing rights on the edge and forced the government first to issue two decrees to protect tenants, to restrict prices, to prevent evictions of vulnerable persons, to construct and produce more social housing. But because this decrease were not supported by the allies, especially the Catalonian right-wing allies of the Partido Socialista, the Socialist Party. Basically, whole government has fallen down. It has not fallen down, but they have called for these snap elections. Also because they've seen it as an opportunity for the left wing. in Spain to mobilize, you know, a left wing that has been demobilized by corruption cases and many other issues that have affected the government. Scott Leckie: Right, right. And it seems like the h the housing crisis is something that really affects just about everybody everywhere. I I'm looking at an article now that's talking about average home prices in Spain rising by eighty percent over the last ten years and rent prices going up eighty-seven percent. I mean, those are shocking levels when wages have only gone up by thirty percent. And also that the mass population increase in some of the the biggest towns, Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia. By hundreds of thousands of people and not being dealt with in terms of building new housing. The government apparently promised in 2023 to build 184,000 new homes, which is a fantastic commitment to make. It should be said too that housing rights are in the Constitution of Spain, but only 14,000 of those 184,000 houses have as of yet been built. So housing is really at the forefront of everything is given the the difficulties affecting not just the housing sector but the government specifically forcing them to call this election, do you think the the pivot towards housing as the key theme is going to help them win an election that looks, according to the opinion polls, very difficult for Sanchez and his allies to win? Jose Arraiza: Yes, mean, most likely it's not going to be enough to produce a victory for the left coalition as it happened in 2023 because the distance is too high. know, it's a distance of around 15 points in the polls and the sum of people's party and Vox, which is the far right, is well beyond the absolute majority. So this can be interpreted as a last move by Sanchez, who is a great strategist to again, hold the next government. But it also can be seen as choosing the less damaging moment to keep an opposition as strong as possible. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: basically the political calculation was like, okay, if we call elections now, it's going to be better than if we have them one year from now when they are due by Scott Leckie: Right. Jose Arraiza: law. And then there is also the issue of the timing of the municipal and regional elections. the municipal and regional politicians from the left side, they were urging the Socialist Party to have first the general elections and then the municipal elections because they feel that the punishment, the punishing vote and the demobilized voter will appear primarily in the general elections. So if you had had first the municipal and the regional elections, it would have been a disaster for the socialist party and the left because they would have been punished at the local level. and then again punished at the central level. Scott Leckie: Right. So I mean are I mean, does does Pedro Sanchez and the Socialist Party have any chance of pulling off a surprise victory at the end of on the twenty eighth of November when the elections are held? Or twenty ninth? Jose Arraiza: Well, one never knows, you know, how the left voter and the left center voter will be mobilized. The reality is that there are several incentives for mobilization. First, there is the housing rights, which is an issue that young voters will care a lot about because they don't have access to housing. That's the reality. No, so the only way a youngster And you can see it in the the posters that they write, you know, they say, OK, I did a master. I studied, I saved. And the only way I get a house in case if my mother dies, you know, if I inherit, that's the reality, you which is very sad. Scott Leckie: Mm. Jose Arraiza: so that's one incentive. The other incentive is that people are left and center left people and even moderate right. they don't like the far right. The far right that has come about is a threat for the institutions, is a threat for fundamental rights, including rights of women, for example. also many women will be probably mobilized to vote because they don't want to see their sexual and reproductive rights curtailed. They don't want to have sexist people as ministers, less measures to curb violence against women. Then there is the motivation of many Catalan and Basque nationalists Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: who really loathe having basically a Francoist movement in government because box at the end it's basically a how would you say it's as if the Francoist ideologies lose their shame and actually they say we have no Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: shame, no complejos, right? complejos. So many Scott Leckie: Right, right. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: people and especially in Catalonia and Basque Country, they will love having these centralist Francoist people in power. And actually, we can talk about it later, but the implications of a PP box government for Catalonia and Basque Country are something to watch for. But we also have to see the opposite. know, like we have seen in July the coming of around 80,000 Moroccan, Sudanese and other nationalities migrants in one day into Ceuta, which has Scott Leckie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: polarized enormously the population. has created a lot of fear. has been basically a chocolate bar for the far right. And Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jose Arraiza: it has increased enormously xenophobia, racism, and so on in Spain. Definitely, same as the Catalonia bill for independence inflated the far right, this Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jose Arraiza: CELTA intrusion or as right wing portrayed as invasion by Moroccan migrants has inflated and given a lot of force to the far right. Scott Leckie: Right. Just just to focus on the Sueta situation, what's the truth about it in terms of was it planned? Did somebody set it up? Did it just happen by accident? What happened? What's the truth behind it? Jose Arraiza: Yes. Well, in my personal opinion, I think this is more of a social media phenomenon than a political conspiracy by states. Why? Because there was a sentence by the Supreme Court concerning the issue of devoluciones in caliente, which means when you take a migrant that has jumped the fence and you just push back the person, a formal legal process determining whether it's an asylum seeker, who is that person. So the Supreme Court logically said that you cannot push back a person like that because you don't know who that person is. It can be a... legitimate asylum seeker. It can be anybody. It could be a resident of Ceuta. So, and especially if they are minors, no, I mean, the issue with minors then becomes even more sensitive. So what happened that this sentence was portrayed in social media in Morocco as saying, you know, anybody can come to Ceuta. The Spanish government will give you a house, a job. and probably free cinema tickets every weekend. this kind of lies exploded in Morocco and there was like this kind of organization. Then what was the role of the Moroccan government? Probably very ambiguous, know, probably they saw it coming. Maybe they, you know, it's not the first time that this happens, right? Scott Leckie: Right. Jose Arraiza: At that time of the year when it's good weather and people can swim. around the barriers. So what did the Moroccan government do? We saw videos of policemen guiding the traffic and some suspicions that they could be involved. the day before yesterday, it was known that at the same time some naval warships of Morocco had entered into Spanish waters and the Spanish Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: warships had guide them back. So Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: who knows? We are in a geopolitical scenario where hybrid warfare is an issue. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: We know that Trump hates Sanchez. He's probably the politician that he hates most. Morocco is an ally of Trump. One day we will know. My opinion is that I find it hard to believe that this was like a full conspiracy operation, political operation. I don't think so. I think it probably started as a social media hype and Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jose Arraiza: then political actors used it whichever way they could. Scott Leckie: Right, right. Yeah, and man yeah, many took advantage of the situation for their own particular objectives. Jose Arraiza: Yeah, exactly. Scott Leckie: Does Spain and do pi do Spain and Morocco generally have good relations with one another as neighbors? Jose Arraiza: I think generally, yes, generally Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: it's a good neighbourly relation. are Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: several areas of agreement from fisheries to border management to many to agriculture and so on. Morocco is a huge producer of fruit, for example, that is crossing into Spain. Scott Leckie: Mm, sure. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: And then there are There is a considerable population of Moroccan migrants and their descendants in Spain. But there are issues of contention that are always there. One issue is always there, sovereignty over Ceuta and Melilla. So the issue Scott Leckie: Yeah, right. Jose Arraiza: of Morocco not recognizing the sovereignty of Spain over Ceuta and Melilla, which dates back Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: to... centuries ago is an issue. Then the issue of the Western Sahara has been a contentious issue for many years and Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: at the moment the politics have changed. Scott Leckie: Yeah, because that was of course that was that was Spanish Sahara before, right? Right. Jose Arraiza: It was Spanish Sahara before it was Spanish Sahara before it was taken over peacefully by by Morocco in an action that was called the Green March, the Marcha Verde. So Scott Leckie: Yeah. The Green Marsh. Yeah. Yeah. Jose Arraiza: this SEWTA issue, you know, it could it could awake this fear, you know, of suddenly Scott Leckie: Mm. Jose Arraiza: huge masses of Moroccans just coming into SEWTA. It didn't, it really didn't go as far as that. And the Moroccans Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Right. Jose Arraiza: that came in, the vast majority, they left a day after because they found everything shut down. They couldn't, they couldn't buy food. They couldn't sleep anywhere and they just left, you know, and they had no intention of staying, you know. A lot of them, Scott Leckie: They went back. They just went back into Mark. Jose Arraiza: a lot of them did it for fun, to tell you the truth, you know, it's like, go. Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: But it was a tragic. Scott Leckie: But as a but as a political issue, I mean it's going to clearly benefit the the anti immigrant right wing parties much more than the governing socialist party. Jose Arraiza: Yeah, and it's connected to the housing rights issue. And I'll tell you something very, very interesting, you know, because you see in Ceuta, the irregular migrants, they created a camp in the beach and the Ceuta inhabitants very rightfully, they were pissed off, you know, because suddenly the beach was occupied by people that had no clear right of being there. You know, there was a... concern about security for young women, et cetera, et cetera. And then right a month later or two months later, you have another camp, which is the camp of the housing rights defenders. That is also a camp, you know, it's also with tents and so Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: on. the far right protesters that... came last Saturday and also this Monday and you know that have been kind of threatening. Yeah, now it's Madrid. So the far-right Scott Leckie: Now we're talking about Madrid. We're talking about Madrid. Yeah. Jose Arraiza: protesters in Madrid, slogans, one of their slogan is, Ceuta is Spain, you know, but it doesn't Scott Leckie: right. Jose Arraiza: make sense because you coming with a big Spanish flag to the housing rights defenders telling them, no, Ceuta is Spain. But it's like, come on, it has nothing to do, no? Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: They are not, it's not about Ceuta. The Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: other are protesting about the rent prices. So everything Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: is getting mixed up and everything is getting mixed up also with memories also from the civil war. You know, like I was myself in the protest, you know, and so the far right protesters, they were coming on the day of Hispaniad, it's the day of Spainhood of... Hispanic heritage and they were coming to let's say intrude into the square. So the housing rights protesters, they blocked the streets that gave entrance to the square. And what was really a bit shocking to tell you the truth, when many things were shocking, but one shocking thing is that the insiders, the housing rights defenders, they started shouting, no pasaran, no pasaran. And no pasaran Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: is the slogan of Madrid in 1939, when it was about to be Scott Leckie: Yeah, right. Jose Arraiza: taken over by Franco. So no pasaran, they shall not pass. And Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Jose Arraiza: then you had on the other side, the far right who were saying something like reds dead reds are good for my garden or something, something terrible, Scott Leckie: Mm. Jose Arraiza: Terrible, you know, but totally unnecessary. Then another thing that was shocking is that we had a group this Monday, the day of Hispaniadal, a group of children, you know, children like 15, 16, 17 years old. kids that were coming from the marches that were celebrating Spain's heritage and Latin America's heritage. And they came with flags from the Franco era. So these flags have like an eagle. And they were also coming with flags from Falange, which is the fastest... the fastest party of the 1930s in Spain. they were chanting, know, Francoist slogan. were using the fastest salute, you know, with their hand up high and really with very, very hateful rhetoric, know, flipping the finger insult. But the crazy thing is that these were children. You know, and even when the TV Scott Leckie: Mm. Jose Arraiza: cameras were filming them, the film crew was saying, don't film them because they are children. You know, cannot, you Scott Leckie: Right. Jose Arraiza: should not put the image of children on TV, you know, because they are underage. And this Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: has been quite shocking. And then what has happened yesterday is that at the same time we've had a a protest by the educators that are seeing their educational projects and their schools being underfunded. So the educational protest came together, they came to the camp. So it was again a huge demonstration. Another fun thing, if there is something fun about this, is that when when the far right was in one side and the left side was on the other, you know, with the police in the middle, inside the square, there were several musical events. So I was actually witnessing a flamenco dance of a flamenco group. It's like a flamenco for Palestine group that were playing. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: So you have like really surreal scenes. Scott Leckie: Wow. Jose Arraiza: because you have the far right, the police, the other saying no pasaran, and then in the middle the flamenco. And it's like, Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: okay, Spain is different, no? It's like a Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: really movie-like stuff. Scott Leckie: Yeah. God, it's really it's a frenzy. And Jose Arraiza: Yeah, it's different. Scott Leckie: so I mean this far right stuff is happening, you know, everywhere, unfortunately, across the world now, right? So S Spain is not immune. I mean, Spain has really never been immune in the last Jose Arraiza: And Scott Leckie: century to these forces. And as you said, they now feel like they can climb out from under their rock and and express themselves without consequence. publicly saying things that they would have never dared say during the immediate post Franco period, right? So is Jose Arraiza: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: the most likely scenario a an alliance between the Vox Party and the the the P P, the Partido Popular, the p the right wing conservative party? Is that the most likely scenario in a month's time or or what what are other Jose Arraiza: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. mean, they have already made alliances at the regional governments, you know, wherever they needed in Castilla León, in Andalusia. They've already done that. And you Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jose Arraiza: have to understand that Vox is an excision of the People's Party. So actually, Vox was before... a component of the People's Party. So Scott Leckie: Right. Jose Arraiza: it's the same politicians. know, the leader of Vox, Santiago Abascal, is a former People's Party leader, So Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: they have zero problem in joining together. The problem they have is they compete with each other. You know, the real Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: issue is an issue of... of a run to see who gets most voters because at the end, the fear Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: of the Partido Popular is to be overtaken by box, you know, because at the moment, the leadership, yeah, the leadership, yeah. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Yeah. You have Hm You have exactly that same you have that same exact phenomenon happening here in Australia right now. Jose Arraiza: Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: The two right wing parties, the one extreme right and the centre right, are basically fighting a battle downwards, you know. Who can be worse and and fearful Jose Arraiza: Yeah, yeah, it's like Scott Leckie: losing to each other, you know? Yeah. Jose Arraiza: It's like who says the most chauvinistic stuff to Scott Leckie: Yeah. Right. Right. Jose Arraiza: impress the voters? No, I'm more Spanish than you know. I'm 100 times more patriot. So I will Scott Leckie: That's right. That's right. Jose Arraiza: hunt down the migrants. No, I will push them to the sea. So Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: it's a race to the bottom, really. Scott Leckie: Like the like most of the pl or almost all of the political parties in the Israeli election right now, same exact thing happening, you know? So, Jose Arraiza: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: so it's a pretty high risk gamble that Sanchez has taken to call this election now, but I guess he figured strategically Jose Arraiza: Hmm. Scott Leckie: it was a there was a higher likelihood of victory to call the election now and base it on a prevailing issue which everybody's focused on housing, and see what happens in a month's time. Cause I this will if the election goes the way the polls are saying and Sanchez does not pull off a miracle, this will have huge implications for y the European Union, the position of Spain vis a vis the Palestine issue, The the question of Catalonia and Basque Country, other territories of Spain, I mean all of these things are gonna re be really subject to some controversial periods. Jose Arraiza: Yes, I mean, you have to understand that the socialist, what has happened in Spain since the dictatorship is that the socialist have advanced on rights protection in areas like the right to abortion, the rights of LGBT rights, know, the right to equal marriage, the rights Scott Leckie: Hmm. Sure. Jose Arraiza: of fight against gender-based violence, the housing rights, all have been advances. And then there's always been a pushback from the right wing. But Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: at the end, the right wing has incorporated these advances. So Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: many right wing leaders have used, for example, the right to divorce. Divorce was illegal when not Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: right. Many, Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: of course, they have divorced, many gay marriages in the People's Party. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: You know, lots of advances that at the end, the right wing, will incorporate, you know, that's the dynamics. when now when Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: when Pippi and Vox come together, I'm sure they are going to dismount, you know, and demolish. a lot of the protections in place. I'm sure a lot of the Vox voters, for example, their main motivation is that they hate gender equality legislation and institutions. They hate it. Like a neighbor Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Right. Jose Arraiza: of mine says, well, all politicians are horrible, but at least Vox will erase the Ministry of Equality. you know, which is the one that they hate, So, yeah, yeah, like, so it's a lot of Scott Leckie: Right. Like like Miley did in Argentina. One of the first acts. Jose Arraiza: change, so change, so, story. So I think they are going, definitely they are going to, to change the legal framework in terms of, many, you know, cultural war issues. And, Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: but, but there are issues that are even worse, you know, I think, the environment. protection is a big worry, you know, for me personally, I think in Spain, there's a Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Sure. Sure. Jose Arraiza: huge pressure to construct and to use areas regardless of the natural value. And it's the same pressure that has led the housing market to skyrocket in prices. So the Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: pressure is enormous, the tourism pressure on protected zones. the pressure of hunters that want to be allowed to hunt wolves, to hunt even bears, you know. So I think the environment will be a new important risk also in terms of climate change and climate change policies, which is horrible. And then the issue that it's not being paid enough attention. is the issue of the Basque Country and Catalonia because the Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: Basque Country politicians of Basque Nationalist Party, Bildu in Catalonia, left Republican Party of the Catalans and Junts, they are going to freak out with boxing power. mean, this is going to elevate tensions, territorial tensions to... to the degree of 2017 or more. Because Vox Scott Leckie: How it used to be. Yeah. Jose Arraiza: is really Francoist, and Franco Scott Leckie: Right. Jose Arraiza: completely erased the linguistic rights of the Basque, their self-governance rights, and the Catalonians. So that Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Jose Arraiza: tension is skyrocketing. And actually, now we are about to see another event that is going to definitely give a lot of... air and oxygen to the far right, which is the return of Carles Puigdemont, who is the leader Scott Leckie: Right, right. Jose Arraiza: that organized the 2017 unlawful independence referendum. And he's been in Scott Leckie: Yeah. Jose Arraiza: exile in Belgium until now. Scott Leckie: Uh-huh. Jose Arraiza: However, there's been another sentence of the Supreme Court that has basically said that the detention order against him, the arrest warrant is off because the amnesty that was enacted by the socialist government applies to all his pending cases. Until now, there was a type of corruption prevaricación that was not covered by the amnesty, but now it is covered. So he's free to come back anytime. So at some time we're going to have this character, which is kind of a comic character to tell you the truth. This Pujdemont and he wants to be like a Catalan Mandela, And his supporters... I'm sure they will make a lot of noise and he will come between now and the November elections. that's going again, that's going to drive the right and far right crazy. That's going to mobilize them. Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Right. Well, it sounds like a pretty crazy period in the political world of Spain at the moment, and you know, with huge implications domestically and regionally and even internationally. let's keep our fingers crossed that things remain calm, because y you know, people often forget, you know, especially people that don't know Spain. I mean, y Spain's Jose Arraiza: Hmm. Scott Leckie: political history has been extremely checkered in the past over the past Jose Arraiza: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Scott Leckie: century and even less. You know, the Spanish Civil War, of course, was, you know, notoriously Jose Arraiza: Yeah. Scott Leckie: brutal. And then that whole period of Franco what w how long he governed for what, thirty years or more? Wha how Jose Arraiza: 39 to 75, so I think it's 39 years. 39 years, Yeah, 36. Scott Leckie: Yeah. Thirty six years, yeah. Right. And yeah, it's very fresh. I mean, it's only nineteen seventy five that full democracy returned, to Spain. Right. Jose Arraiza: I mean, I don't think there's a real democratic backsliding risk. I think that there is a real risk of rights being curtailed and the environment being damaged. That's for sure. Scott Leckie: Yep. Yeah. Right. Jose Arraiza: But I think the... What would be a pity is that the camp, the current protest in Seoul, up with violence. That would be terrible. And actually, could be a fight, could be somebody, some far-right person with a baseball bat or molotov cocktail or whatever, you know? So I think personally, I think that... a good strategy would be to start planning them leaving the square. Because the longer you maintain this encampment, the longer the chance that something Scott Leckie: Yeah, sooner or later. Right. Jose Arraiza: will go wrong. So it's better sometimes to live with a positive note. Live while your image is still highly regarded and positive. than stay Scott Leckie: And Jose Arraiza: longer. you know, there's also sometimes homeless people that have been accommodated by the campers. And it's, you know, it may end up leading to trouble, unfortunately. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Right, right. Have there been any reports of foreign in engagement within the election process, as is so common now in Europe and the United States elsewhere? You heard of anything? Jose Arraiza: Not yet. Nothing major, nothing major, but that will be something to watch for in the coming weeks. I think probably Russia and the US have not had time, you know, because of the snap elections. It's been by surprise, but I'm sure, Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: I mean, I'm sure they have used the Catalan issue. They will use migration. There will be fake news. about the migrants and about Morocco and you know it's going to be a very tense period and we're going to see a general strike on 11 November which Scott Leckie: Mm. Wow. Jose Arraiza: is a bit crazy to tell you the truth you know to have a general strike I heard the campers calling for a general strike, the first days of the protests, and I thought it was really exaggerated. But Scott Leckie: Mm. Jose Arraiza: there's going to be a general strike. So be ready Scott Leckie: Wow. Jose Arraiza: to see things happening in Spain between now and the 29th of November. Yeah. Scott Leckie: Right. Right. Is there any danger? I mean, a lot of these extreme right parties in Europe, the Af Day and d in Deutschland and Germany and you know, some of the parties in Holland and elsewhere, France of course, are really anti EU and wouldn't mind pulling their countries Jose Arraiza: Yeah. Scott Leckie: out of the EU. I mean, is there any danger of that happening if you get a extreme right wing government there? Jose Arraiza: Not in Spain, know, not in Spain. Spain, the far right has not taken the anti-EU agenda for Scott Leckie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jose Arraiza: many reasons, because Spain is really a beneficiary of the European Union, you know, and the public knows that. So they Scott Leckie: Right, right. Totally. Yep. Jose Arraiza: do have, you know, statements against the bureaucrats of EU and how they are. against the small agriculture workers and so on. But it doesn't go further than that. And then they are supporting Trump, which is the worst policies for trade that you can have for the Spanish countryside. yeah, Scott Leckie: Mm. Right. Jose Arraiza: the Spanish far right, their center is in migration and also against the Catalonian and Basque nationalists. Scott Leckie: Right, right, right, right. Well, we're gonna have another Spaniard on democracy tomorrow in a couple of weeks. The United Nations Special Rapporteur on Housing Rights is gonna be joining us to talk about housing rights generally as well and and also the situation in Spain. So we'll see how things have evolved at that time. Well, thank you very much, Jose. Super interesting to get the perspectives of what you've seen on the ground in your city. and in your country and fingers crossed that things go smoothly in the coming weeks and who knows, there might be a electoral miracle at the end, but it does seem from everything I've seen and everything you've said to be not very likely that the current government's gonna maintain its position. But the important thing is from a position of democracy, there is a vote. There is a pro Jose Arraiza: Yeah. Scott Leckie: there is a process. It is a fair and free election. It is something in which everybody over the age of is it eighteen or sixteen in Spain, the voting age? you know, in a growing number of Jose Arraiza: 18, 18. 18. Yeah. Scott Leckie: countries it's sixteen, of course. but everybody over the age of eighteen can issue a legal vote and expect that it will be counted. So that's an important thing to remember and to not forget how precious that is for the billions of people in the world that don't have that right. So with that, thank you very much for watching, everybody. This has been Democracy Tomorrow. We'll be back soon with the next episode. If you like what we do, please like and subscribe. It helps us do what we want to do. And wishing you and everyone all around you a democratic future for yourself and for the world. Thanks for watching, everybody. See you next time.