Latest / In The Business of Humans / Keen presents: Employee Experience = Customer Experience: Why Happy Teams Create Loyal Customers

Transcript

Keen presents: Employee Experience = Customer Experience: Why Happy Teams Create Loyal Customers · In The Business of Humans

• CX Joe: What do you get when you take a former manager and report combo who are now real life friends? One a management coach and sudden viral internet star who shoots from the hip, and the other a CX exec turned advisor who overthinks everything. This podcast. Welcome to the business of humans. I'm Joe, founder of CX Joe Advisory and the Overthinker. My partner in crime is Lynda She's the founder of Leveled Up Leadership and the Internet Star. Join us as we talk about business, relationships, humanity, success, and also failure, through the lens of friendship, heaps of radical transparency and honesty, and zero BS. Lynda Harvey: This episode is brought to you by Keen. If you've ever looked into companies like Deal or Remote because you wanted to hire internationally, you've probably realized something. They make it easier to employ people around the world, yes. But they don't actually help you build the team. That's why I like what Keen is doing. They combine the infrastructure. Of an employer of record with specialized global talent, helping companies build customer experience, creative marketing, and operations teams that feel like the true extension of your business. Now, let's jump into today's episode. CX Joe: Let's get started with today's episode. Lynda Harvey: Hi Joe. CX Joe: Hello, Lynda, how are you? Lynda Harvey: I am, you know, I'm living the dream. Always living the dream, how are you? CX Joe: Well that's great to hear. And as you know, that's one of my favorite Lynda isms. ⁓ I know I was Lynda Harvey: You CX Joe: very surprised today to find for anyone who listens and doesn't watch that we have a blue shirt theme today. That's pretty Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: uncommon for us. often like black, CX Joe green is my jam. Today went blue and we're team blue. Lynda Harvey: We are Team Blue. We are Team Blue. that's funny. So I live in Utah. And there's a lot of things going on in Utah right now. There's a lot going on in Utah, which I CX Joe: do tell. Lynda Harvey: know. Yeah, well, it's all it's, there's the data center, which is making huge, huge news across the country because it's. CX Joe: I'm gonna do a little like whoosh over my head sign. Maybe maybe I've heard about this. What's going on with that? Lynda Harvey: Yeah, so in Utah, there was a 40,000 acre data center approved by local government, CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: which, to put this in context for you, Joe, is larger than Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I felt like I should really make that connection for you. Yeah, so it's CX Joe: wow. Thank you for putting it into the Northeast mindset perspective. It yes, yes. Lynda Harvey: been a really, really big deal. And it has been making national news for a couple of months now. And it's been a really, really... CX Joe: 'Cause is it is it owned, like which company is it attached to? Lynda Harvey: So Kevin O'Leary is heading up the whole project. know, Mr. Wonderful, one of the shanks, shanks and sharks. CX Joe: The Shark Tank Guy, Mr. Wonderful. I love Shark Tank. I miss watching Shark Tank. Lynda Harvey: So, but here's the rub. So one thing you may not know about Utah, I think everybody knows that Utah has got a large, well, what used to be large body of water, which is salted, right? And other than the Dead Sea, it's the only other body of water that is landlocked where it is a salty body of water, right? And I have been it when I was younger. It is very odd. I've never been to the Dead Sea. but it is a very odd experience that you get in and you literally can sit straight up and float, right? It's not like a lie down. Yeah, it's the great Salt Lake. Yes, it's an actual thing. Well, barely, Yeah, so Salt CX Joe: And this is in Utah? The Salt Lake act does still exist? Okay. I don't know if it went by the wayside. You know, the world's crazy. Lynda Harvey: Lake is not just like something fun to say, it's an actual thing. And so anyway, so we have the great Salt Lake, which is not so great. Any longer. I was flying over it. I was coming home from a trip this year and it had been a while since I've flown over it. And it is really, really sad just to see that there's just because outside of the Great Lakes. So it was actually the fifth largest lake by area. I think by area outside of the Great Lakes. But the thing is, is it's slowly evaporated. And Utah, for those who don't know, is a desert. So I live in a desert climate. And we are running out of water. And Utah is an extreme, like extreme state of emergency drought situations. And, you know, I mean, we can chalk it up to the fact that most, majority of our water is either siphoned off to send to Vegas or is used to supply alfalfa farmers, which again, I'm very pro farmer. but it supplies alfalfa farmers who ship their alfalfa crops out of the country. So it's not feeding really, it's not feeding the United States, it's not feeding these things, right? And a data center, when it comes in, in order to keep the mechanisms cool, require a lot of water. CX Joe: Yes, so I've heard. Lynda Harvey: And the water cannot be recycled because of the way that the... the water is used, it's then polluted and then it goes into the surrounding areas. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: So we have a lake that's running dry, are in extreme droughts and then a 40,000 acre data center was approved. CX Joe: That's draining the water and using the water to pollute the air. This is not even a double or triple whammy. This is like a 5X whammy or something. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, this is the, yeah, it's bad news bears, right? It's bad news bears. But in a turn of events this week, which may be inspired the blue shirt, a lot of these political leaders who have approved these things in closed door meetings, who are also benefiting immensely from these things coming into the state have been ousted. So maybe that inspired my blue shirt. CX Joe: Wow. That that that was like a remark I think you did a great job too of summarizing what some pretty complex and broad topics there. Lynda Harvey: Thank CX Joe: I was thinking as you were talking of, you know, naming the episode the the lakes of later to come is customer and employee experiences and lakes. that was an amazing story and it Lynda Harvey: Thanks. CX Joe: seemed to have a happy ending though. That was that was that was ride. But I think that's a great example. A lot of people, so I joke about having grown up in the five boroughs of New York, and people might be aware of this like cartoon. I think it came out ages ago, but it's like the East Coast or West Coaster's view of the country, and it's like New York, and then it's California, and it's just everything kind of in the middle. Lynda Harvey: Everything else, it's sparse, yeah. CX Joe: And it's true, and I'm very I'm not proud of that. I'm just very I'm a realist that that there is that to some extent. And so an example of that for me is I've read articles that made me sad and troubled about how in other countries there are different examples of, you know, producing a crop and using up the local water. Folks don't have enough water. And like for example, I think in Mexico and the avocados, it's really sad in like these areas where it's being produced. So it's a whole whole other topic. But I've, you know, I've been really troubled. And people don't know what's going on right in our own country, right in the state of Utah. that's a lot. That's a lot. And Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. CX Joe: You know what's gonna be really typical for us and for my life is Lynda Harvey: detail. CX Joe: I'll explain my blue shirt. Lynda Harvey: Do it. Yes. CX Joe: So I'm revealing on my shirt the FIFA logo. It's not Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: just a solid Navy blue shirt. And this is my FIFA World Cup shirt that I proudly purchased and overpaid egregiously for on site Lynda Harvey: Yes. Yeah, totally. CX Joe: at MetLife Stadium in in New Jersey. one of the sites of the World Cup is air quotes New York slash New Jersey. Now Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: I am originally from the five boroughs of Queens, New York. and growing up in New York, you're going to New Jersey, like, like pollution, Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: just horrible, ugly, boring, whatever. Now I'm a New Jerseyite. So it's funny how the table and eventually by now I'm going like, my God, it's so funny. Always like it's called New York, New Jersey. All the World Cup matches in this region are being played at one stadium. It's in the state of New Jersey. It's not even close, but it's great for everybody traveling in because a lot of them are staying in Manhattan. They experience Times Square. They take over Times Square and they're watching their team. play and then they have to trek in and it's a little bit of a it's becoming like an infamous trek into this like huge concrete like parking lot area of New Jersey. It's Lynda Harvey: That's funny. CX Joe: a stadium where the supposed New York Jets and New York Giants in the NFL play again, always playing in the state of New Jersey. So the matches are there and I did get to go to a match with my wife Ina and we had a great time. The whole it Lynda Harvey: That sounds great. CX Joe: was awesome. the whole experience of like before the match, during the match After seeing we got to see like French and Senegalese fans who had just been like battling during the match, were like dancing together Lynda Harvey: of that. CX Joe: after. There were Mexican fans roaming around for whatever reason and big hats on. It was just like it was an it was an amazing scene. Getting home was terrible. but overall it was a great scene, and I was just excited to throw on my FIFA World Cup t-shirt today, which now comparing my story to your story, you know, this is just Oblivious Joe, just going about my business, going to the World Cup, got my CX Joe, my family. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, see, I don't see it that way. I see it as we both have different stories of unity. CX Joe: wow, that was good. Yes. Yes. Excellent. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, we both have different stories of unity, right? So like, the people of Utah band together out CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: of like pure rage and CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: voted something different. And then, you you went and the fans of opposing teams were dancing together. This is all just a story of unity. That's how I see it. CX Joe: And bonded together in the spirit of soccer slash football and egregiously overpriced tickets and just celebrating life. Okay. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. Well, and you also had like the Knicks one. So you've had like some CX Joe: my gosh. Lynda Harvey: pretty and you know, you know, I don't. Well, it's so funny. I was actually thinking a lot about sports this morning, which is not something that I normally do because I famously make incorrect, usually on purpose sports references. And I actually feel a little badly that I haven't watched. I watched my first World Cup game last night because I'm an Olympics fiend. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yes, yes. That was another thing when I put the t shirt on. I was I because I'm Lynda Harvey: I think you know this about me. I'm an Olympics fiend. CX Joe: pretty into the World Cup and I was thinking about your Olympics fandom and wanted to know if you Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: if you were partaking at all in the World Cup. So it's perfect. Lynda Harvey: So I felt, I feel really badly. Like my daughter last night's like, mom, let's go watch something else. I'm like, no, I like, I, need to be involved in this world situation. Like I need CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: to do the things. So I, I, I feel badly because I mean, the best part about the Olympics is the variety, right? Like it's CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: many events. I struggle with just one sport. but CX Joe: Yeah. Yes. Lynda Harvey: I do, the thing that I, and again, I'm not that into sports. But the thing that I do love is the psychology behind CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: the teams and those types of things. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: I was thinking about, was like, oh, I get to talk to Joe today and we're going to talk about the things and then the Knicks and they won. And then I remembered that a former jazz man from Jordan Clarkson is on the Knicks. And I'm CX Joe: Yeah. A jazz man. Yes. Lynda Harvey: a huge fan of Jordan Clarkson, like huge fan. CX Joe: He's pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: and was so excited that he finally got his ring because, know, CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: notoriously chokes every time, every time. get to CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: the, they get, and I mean, my favorite team, my most favorite team, and I know this is going to go someplace. This is really going to lead into our topic, I promise you. But my favorite team that we've had of the jazz, I know everybody talks about the... the 90, I want to say like the 92, 93 jazz with Karl Malone and John Stockton. And yeah. CX Joe: That's like John Stockton, Carl Malone, yep. Lynda Harvey: I mean, I will say that we did have as many members on the Olympic team as anybody else. Right. So there's that on the dream team. CX Joe: Yeah, they came within a within a game and a couple of Michael Jordan shots of winning the title, so Lynda Harvey: Yeah, yeah. So but my favorite team happened to have Jordan Clarkson on it and the dynamic of that team. we we also talk about Donovan Mitchell, who at the time when he was on the jazz team was in the name of some of the greats and his career is kind of not done as well on the Cavs as it was doing as it was like the trajectory of being on the jazz. And we talk about Rudy Gobert, who also, you know, for time, think was for a defenseman of the year, like CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: all of these things. And interestingly enough, go bear had been on the jazz for seven years before he got these defenseman titles. And it was all because of the dynamic of that particular team that had Jordan Clarkson on it. So I was really CX Joe: Yep. Yep. Lynda Harvey: excited about that. But the reason this feeds into our overall topic today is CX Joe: huh. Lynda Harvey: I love the psychology of it, of how you pair your talent. and how you have your talent kind of compliment to become an Epic team, even if they don't go all the way, right? But it's a team to talk about and it helps the franchise go from this level to the next level when you have CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: paired all of your talent and when you have them all serving kind of like that common goal. And it's not about one particular rising star. or having like these knockout players, it's about having a combination where they all become better together. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: And the reason I think this feeds into our topic today is that's what I actually believe like a good, a company does in order to build solid talent teams, especially when it comes to CX. Would you agree CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: Joe? CX Joe: I would totally agree. And I'm I'm smiling because, you know, on one hand you always have these masterful kind of segues and weaving everything together. And then I'm always like wiggling and like fighting back from the so what I would say is yes. And I I think that, you know, this topic you brought up of sports and the Knicks champion I brought up World Cup and the Knicks, but also we've been today's episode because our whole podcast is about the humanity in everything. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. CX Joe: So the whole episode's not going to be like the humanity of sports and business or anything, but it I I agree it actually is a really appropriate lead-in. And the reason that my New York Knicks, and I am a long-suffering fan or was a long-suffering fan, now a jubilant fan, I have won the championship this year. And then I do have a case of the World Cup fever. And I think that so much of what I take from these sporting events and runs is the humanity aspect. I recently had somebody really clearly articulate kind of the downside of of being a massive sports fan, which earlier in my life I was a little bit more in that direction of like, I had to watch the Yankees game, the Knicks game every night. And this guy who I was meeting with recently said to me that we're allowed to choose what we care about and spend our mental energy on. And most of us, including myself, or like ⁓ including when I got together with Lynda today, are going around all the time saying, I feel so busy and this and that. But you get to choose what you're spending your time on. And he pointed out to me, like, well, if you watch every damn you know, 162 baseball game of the year, then you really care about the playoffs, and then you're really upset and grumpy when they lose, but you don't have to choose to care about that. And so that that, et cetera, is kind of like the, I think, the argument against sports. And then I think the argument for sports Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and what it means for society, you can see like turning on a World Cup match. or when I saw like a dance party afterward, that was like pretty impromptu and it was just all these different countries getting together. And what the world could appreciate about my New York Knicks winning the title is not so much what happens on the court, but the jubilation kind of the New Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: York City is one of the most diverse cities on the planet. And to see Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: everybody come together and just act like friends and family, you know, in the spirit of watching the games together and celebrating after and strangers hucking in the street from all walks and everything, that that is cool. And in a way, it's too bad that there aren't more things in society that bring us together that way. But sports could have that effect, which which is sort of the the pro sports argument. and I completely agree with you. everything when you think about like the composition of a team and then any sports fan listening knows there's always like those teams that seem to have the talent and they flop, they don't execute every year, they never get it done. And other teams which on paper you're going like, where's the star power? And you know their their payroll is not as big. And then they overachieve and they win the championship. Lynda Harvey: Okay. CX Joe: So a lot of that I think we've always talked about and when I bring up my sports analogies at Daily Harvest is usually in this direction of like you're building the championship team and then we were so strongly aligned. on doing all the little things from a management and motivation standpoint to you know get the best out of people and have them feel like they were part of something really special. And all of us, all of us, not just like the people we were managing, like, they were the puppets on the string. Like I always want to be managed this way too. You want to feel a part Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: of something great. And there's so much that goes into that. So yeah, in today's episode, we're actually going to dive deeply into employee experience and especially this dynamic that we've lived through our whole career of how the employee experience ends up equaling or having this massive impact on the customer experience, the customers of that, Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: whatever the company is, whatever they're selling, whatever whatever industry it is, they've got customers. And we've lived, we've like, we don't have to speculate or just write papers on it. We've lived through the experience that the better the team members feel and are treated, the better the team experience, the better the customer experience ends up being. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, I 1 million percent agree with that. I think that there's also, you know, so often... We hear, you know, and I dropped it a little earlier, this idea of being customer centric, right? We hear companies who are like, oh, we're, we, we are customer centric. Everything that we do, I know that Daily Harvest touted, you know, we co-create with our customers and we are so customer centric. But the thing is, is at the end of the day, those can be very, very empty words. It can be so empty words. And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: it's about kind of defining who your customer is. And it can be so easy where we're like, well, our customers like in this age range and they make this much money. And I would challenge companies to go a little bit deeper and think about how every member of your company, every CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: employee, every person who's punching that, like the time clock is an extension of your customer support team CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: because every single department has their own customer. And I think that, you we'll get people all the time. They're like, well, I'm not customer facing. I'm like, but you still have a customer that you serve. You still have like you, you work in finance. Okay. Well then your customer are the people that you are CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: connecting with. It's not just about your bottom line, or it's not just about what you're reporting to the board. It's about how are you supporting these teams? Because CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: there is no person who doesn't have to support someone. We can, we can talk about our, our facility staff. Like our facility CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: staff, the entire company is actually their customer. They are on, and when we think about how do we empower the employee experience and drive positive employee experience, not just for the people who are talking to your customers, which we really need to, we're gonna talk about them. We're gonna talk about them. CX Joe: Yeah. Mm hmm. Lynda Harvey: Like how are we empowering the people on our engineering team? Who are their customers, right? Or how are we empowering our accounts receivable team? Because they're serving customers as well, or I mean, my word, our HR team. How are we empowering these individuals and informing their experience? CX Joe: Yeah. So I think that's great. I think that's awesome. And this is why sometimes I picture, you know, we should do like a one two punch advising some companies and kind of our our perspectives. Like this is the way that I've thought about things for a while, and now I'm reflecting on your perspective and how it even broadens it further. But I've thought about how every business has these two groups of human beings of its team members and its customers. to your point, the team members then in most companies will have this one group of customer support or care or CX, and they're actually literally speaking to the customers. but you have these two groups of humans, the team and and the customers. And I think so for all the things I got wrong in my career, and like it's a laundry list, like millions of things where you know, I just I thought one thing as a naive kid and then I was proven wrong. But I would say in like a shorter list of things that maybe I had the right hunch. Was I remember because when you're when you're young and you join companies, you're naive and you just like believe some simple truths to be true. And I remember when I was on the front lines talking to customers, I would think about this aspect of like, wait, it seems so simple. If you treat the team well that's going to be speaking to your customers, and ideally the whole darn team, that will lead everyone to be happy and energetic and resilient and optimistic and show that face and show that voice to customers. Customers will be happy. And they'll come back and and do business with you again, whatever that looks like, whether it's a subscription or buying your product more, it could be software, even anything. so that this dynamic of like team experience equals customer experience. And why wouldn't you just treat the humans of your business well, the team and the customers, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and and that, you know, believing that there'd be this strong correlation between treating those groups of customers well, translating into revenue and growth and business, you know, corporate success and all of that. So that is one thing that I think I naively believe that I actually was true, and I believe with so much conviction now. and basically that there's going to be one of two cycles you could think of as either a virtuous cycle or a very invirtuous cycle. the virtuous cycle that you want to drive is that dynamic of like the happier the team is, the happier customers are, the business is prospering, and it just kind of goes in this beautiful cycle. And the complete Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: opposite could occur. And when you have a team that is not motivated, is not being treated well. ⁓ absolutely those who are speaking to customers, it's going to shine through, create a more negative experience. The business won't prosper. And I think to your point, Lynda, we've seen how that actually exists across the whole company, not just on the customer facing teams. So that Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: was that's like a whole ⁓ career philosophy that I've just really cultivated and I will always be passionate about. I think in classic Lynda fashion, what I see as kind of like a yes and like a broadening of that perspective is almost challenging in a in in a positive, healthy way. Is it even like distinct groups of humans? You know, like these, they Lynda Harvey: Mm. CX Joe: have the customers here and the team here, but your point is that you have customers here and and customers also here. That, you know, the team, Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: everybody has it is a customer and has other customers. And that is truly like a next level customer-centric perspective, which I find really interesting. Lynda Harvey: Well, I mean, I just, you know, the way that I look at life is we're all on this journey together, right? CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: And we have to be reliant on one another and we have to find ways where we're serving and sometimes when we are being served, right? And I think CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: that if companies would look at it in that way and identify and really talk about, especially when we're talking about customers, instead of, you know, we, talk internal and external customer. I mean, it's just all. business bullshit at the end of the day, right? But I think that if we would, CX Joe: Sure, yeah. Lynda Harvey: if we would start asking within companies every single time, who is your customer? Like if we would ask that, then we stop because I think, and Joe, I know you have felt this. I think that CX teams always kind of feel like the lowest common denominator, right? Like I think that we always feel, and for a long time, I even, and I share this story quite candidly. I took me, it took me a long time to find a career in CX and customer support or whatever we're calling it any longer. It took me years because I always kind of felt a little embarrassed. I always felt a little embarrassed about being like, yeah, I work in customer support. mean, even, even when I was a head of a department, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I was having a conversation with this individual who was downplaying customer support. And he was just downplaying customer support. CX Joe: Mm, mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And he's like, well, you talk to customers. I'm like, OK, I don't think you understand. Like, I actually have a career in this industry. And yes, well, I do talk to customers because I think it's critical that every person in the organization at some point in time has a conversation with your actual external customer. CX Joe: Plus one, preach. Lynda Harvey: You know, I was like, I'm the head of a department. I'm making quite a bit of money. I have quite an impressive title. but it was still very much downplaying, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: all you do is talk to customers. And I'm like, that CX Joe: Right. Lynda Harvey: could actually be the most critical role within your organization. it's so, but for a long time, it was very embarrassed about my career CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: path. And I didn't think that there was an actual career path within customer CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: service, customer support, customer experience, because I was just like, you know, it's like, it's the call center job that you go get right out of college or right out of CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: high school, depending on where you are. And so the thing is, is it's really interesting that it is one of the most critical, vital roles within an organization, and yet it is still very much viewed as the lowest common denominator. CX Joe: I agree with you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But when you have a conversation with someone and you're like, yeah, I work in customer support. Joe, what is the first thing I want to know truthfully, what's the first thing that people say when you say that you work in customer support? What's like the first thing they say to you? CX Joe: there's usually whatever the exact words are, there's usually a sense of like pity. Like they're like there's some respect or they think it might be fun on some level. But I could also tell that, like, yeah, to your point, I might have just been downgraded in their mind Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: and they sort of feel bad and feel pity on me. Like that must be terrible. They probably assume to your point that me and all of my colleagues are not paid a lot and that we're all just yelled at all day and are miserable. I don't know if that's always the case or The world's changing a little bit in that regard, but traditionally speaking, that that's my that's what comes to mind. Is that what you expected me to say? Lynda Harvey: Similarly, the first thing people always say to me is like, I could never do that. you talk to customers all day. I could never do that. Right. CX Joe: yes, yes, that. Right. With the pity and just like, yeah. Yeah. so sorry to hear that. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: So the thing is, is it's one of the most critical roles in the organization. And yet everyone wants to stay as far away from that part CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: of the business as possible. And yet that's how most companies keep their doors open. CX Joe: 100%. Yeah. So I'm just ex I'm excited about what you're saying because I'm looking at it on two levels. One is like at face value, it's a very important point. And really everyone in the business should be speaking to customers. And this is something that I've talked about in every exec role at every company where I was. ⁓ and to your point, Lynda, like the first response to ⁓ an idea, let's say of having, for example, like everyone in the business speaks to customers for, I don't know, like a week, a year, a month, you know. I built out this whole program at one of my stops where depending on what team you're on. Like if you were an engineer and you were really shy and nervous about it, okay, but it's still really important you have some exposure. So maybe that engineer would spend a couple of days per year like in the email queue and at least just like live the life of a customer service associate. Maybe somebody who's on the marketing team and is in charge of customer facing messaging, they should really spend like a couple of weeks a year. They should get on the phone with customers, right? It's like to really Lynda Harvey: Right? CX Joe: know the way they think. So I could that could be a it's it's a whole own episode. But again, I really like that. I think there's like a deeper level here speaking to, which is that. Traditionally the customer f and speaking to customers ironically and business actually has a negative connotation of the the you know bottom rank, the bottom level, nobody wants to do it. Those folks are off in the corner, they oftentimes work in a different office, their pay beliefs, et cetera. but I love what you're saying. It's a little bit like this servant leadership mindset in a sense of Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: just keeping in mind if if if we could challenge everybody to think about how everybody has customers that they're serving. And yeah, for teams that we've co-managed or teams I've managed with other brilliant people, always encouraging them to think about the internal customers they had too. And like what is your we talk about in customer support, there's like SLA service level agreement. Lynda Harvey: Hmm? CX Joe: And so traditionally that means like getting back to customers for anyone, not for you, for anyone listening that doesn't know, getting back to chats in 30 seconds and you know, email customers in two hours. And I've always challenged my teams to think about what is our internal SLA for our internal customers. know we don't want to keep that other team waiting too long. Let's get back to them also same day. And then you always challenge. And the hard part is challenging other teams all the way up to the C suite to think about things similarly. Of like we're all kind of serving each other in a way. It's like how everybody has a boss. Everybody has a boss. You know, the Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: C the chief marketing whatever reports to the CEO and the CEO usually reports to a board or whomever. Everybody's kind of serving somebody. And so a similar kind of humble mindset of we all in a sense are also customers within the organization. and are serving other customers. And if everybody looked Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: at it that way, like you're articulating Lynda, I think that would also just be there'd be an incredible correlation between that mindset and the ultimate success of the business. Lynda Harvey: 1 million percent, 1 million percent. And I do believe that there are some organizations that have gotten that correlation. And I figured that out, namely Nordstrom, right? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: It's so funny. The company, my very first time I was ever fired is the company I talked about in still high revere. But we talk about the fact that Nordstrom has got the reverse pyramid, right? CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: And the way that they look at their organization, the way that they look at, how they serve their customers is they actually say that the, it's not that they're frontline employees, their salespeople are at the bottom. Those are the exalted CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: people. Those are the people at the top. And it's the executive's job to continue to serve these people because they serve the customer. And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: when we think about the fact that Nordstrom continues to be not part of a giant conglomerate, it's not part of this giant thing. It's still very much its own standalone organization. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and has continued to keep its doors open. And it's done CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: this specifically through the service of its customers, right? Because CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: of the way that they look at it, that every choice that they make serves their frontline individuals, their salespeople who serve their customers. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: And I think about, you know, I make connections all over the time. Like I have clients all over the world, all of the things. And yet I consistently find Nordies, which is what we call ourselves. CX Joe: Norties. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, we all call ourselves Nordies. But I CX Joe: Yeah. Yeah. Lynda Harvey: consistently have a group of people in my sphere who come through who are like, my God, I worked at Nordstrom. I worked at Nordstrom. And we talk about, yeah, we had some really doozy experiences. But at the same time, like we always felt like they were there to serve. We were there to serve CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: our customers and that every person on our team that was behind us that had more money than us that were making decisions were consistently. pushing this idea of the customer experience and making CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: the customer feel like the center of everything that we do, right? And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: that organization, I think really, really has nailed that piece. And I think CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: in general, most of the employees, again, it's not that they're the highest paid. I mean, even their discount, like the discount sucks. And yet you're CX Joe: Ha ha ha. Lynda Harvey: so excited about it. Right? Same 20 % and sometimes 33 CX Joe: So yeah. Lynda Harvey: % and 40 on those rare weeks and the Nordies listening CX Joe: Uh-huh, Lynda Harvey: understand that that's like a big deal and the discount sucks and you're still like bleeding. I still shop at Nordstrom. I was there this weekend taking the kids back to school shopping. CX Joe: It's so interesting. And I could I could verify too, you know, all the even like the the techie or trendy startups that I worked at, at all of them actually typically Nordstrom still has that reputation. It goes across industries and types of companies and size of companies. You that Nordstrom's on the short list of companies that really do customer care right. And then you have the perspective that, you know, some of it starts in in the internal team employee direction. I actually have I have a positive example I wanted to give also from my career. So look at us, we're both being positive. Ironically, mine does kind of have to do with a really sweet discount or credit for customers. There's different ways of getting there, right? and so I want to give a positive example and use it to really hammer home like sort of what this dynamic is and how we've in our roles seen it play out. And then we could get into maybe some of the tips that we have and also how how you know examples of of how it could go sideways. But the positive example for my career is for my days at SeatGeek. And you know, I always find it interesting, Lynda, when we do our episodes and we have positive examples, negative examples. And one dynamic that I've really like sort of celebrated as we've done the podcast is that there's no really simple neat narrative with any one company we worked at. So here, I mean, Z Geek was a normal company that had its pros, it had its cons. I think more pros. I had a great experience overall, but I will kind of put them on a pedestal for this one aspect in the two, three years that I was there. I think they still have the policy to this day. They had something called a ticket perk. And the ticket Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: perk was just cool. It was like a fun perk that helped to draw people in the doors. But I think we would both appreciate kind of what's happening at a deeper level. So the ticket perk was that everyone who worked at SeaGeek, from C-suite to what are we called ourselves like event experts. So that's basically Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: like your tier one, you know, customer facing, crushing tickets all day on the front lines, speaking to customers, trying to use their tickets, they have questions, whatever. Everyone got the same ticket perk, the same dollar amount. We got $120 every single month to just spend on the platform and go to live events. And it was so exciting. It was something that was talked about literally on a daily basis at the office. And you could go in so many different directions with it. So sometimes I'd use it as a to subsidize an even bigger purchase Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: because it, I mean, it's just, my God, $120 head Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: start and buy my wife, you know, concert tickets. Like we saw, greats. We saw Lady Gaga and Madonna and Justin Timberlake and the price point felt more approachable because of the perk. Sometimes what I would do, and I know what the team in Portland would always do, because Portland had an awesome music culture of like smaller venues. And, you know, concert tickets could be 20 or 30 bucks, especially. I'm old. This was a few years ago. And so some of those team members would literally go to like four or five concerts a month on the company. And so I cannot overstate what this did for the company culture and the customer experience. Because now when you have somebody call in and I'll give a common use case, like they're frantic or like either I haven't gotten my ticket transfer yet. something happened, I can't get in the door. I took a lot of pride with the real empathy and emotion that my team would show and I would show if I was interfacing with a customer because I felt I felt their joy and their excitement personally and I felt their pain personally. That it wasn't Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: just, I spent a hundred bucks and like I want a refund. It's not about the refund. It's about you have a special experience probably with a friend Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: or a loved one plan. And there there's there's emotional and real significance in your life attached to that event. And so we'd really go about with passion trying to troubleshoot that issue, knowing that it wasn't just like a barcode. It wasn't even about the hundred bucks or whatever. It was about the experience that the customer was expecting to have. And it could really be enriching. It could get get you through that week or be the highlight of the year or whatever. So that was an example where the company was spending and as a company scaled $120 per employee, you know, times 12 months, it was a real expenditure for the business. But Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: I think It it it the the return on investment on that particular investment, I would argue was like a hundredfold, a thousandfold, a millionfold, Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: right? It really carried the business. So not every industry is kind of as fun as live events or might have such an obvious example. But I think the challenge we put forth to every company is whether it's the ticket perk, whether to your point it's something not involving you know discount codes at all. But what is it going to be that you do with your employee base that spreads joy and makes them feel appreciated? And then importantly. connects their experience to the customer experience in some direct way. And that's going to shine through and it's going to create that amazing customer experience. And, you know, everyone might either know Seag not or have their opinions on secondary ticketing. But I would say that to this day, the company is X years old, like 10 or 15 years old. And I would think that it I would say that in general it's known as a very customer and fan friendly business. So, you know, I have that insight that a lot of that I think is driving from this one investment the company made way back when in the ticket perk. And making employees feel valued and connected to the customer. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. And I think that it's a good way to talk about how, you know, yes, they were investing in it. What I think that in in general, that was just like such a strategic and smart move, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: right? Because, yes, they were spending on employees and it was real money. Like these are real CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: events. But at the end of the day, they were also feeding it back into their business. CX Joe: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: So they were feeding it back into the business in the sense of like, in the form of feedback, in the form of like, yes, I gave you $120 and you then just put it right back into my pocket, essentially, right? So on paper, like when we were looking, if we were to look at a balance sheet, $120 isn't actually $120, but that didn't matter. Yeah. Right. Right. CX Joe: It's maybe like a hundred. You have to pay the venue. You have to pay the venue, the artist, everything. But I get what you're saying, and you know, you get to keep your own commissions and just generally speaking, right? It probably showed as like top line revenue and all of that. So smart in all the ways. No? Lynda Harvey: But the employees don't see it that way. The employees see it as like, I get to go to a show or I get to go CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: to a thing where maybe they're like me. I'm a bit of a bah humbug when it comes to like live events, but CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I sure would love to give those, right? Like I would love to be the hero in CX Joe: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yep. Lynda Harvey: my friend group, my family to be like, oh yeah, what show would you like to go see? Or what event do you want to go take part in CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and being able to do that thing? CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: So the thing is, is like, what a smart investment. And I think that that's where somebody in the C suite or somebody in that marketing group really had a good idea, right? And figured out how to optimize and say, okay, hey, listen, how can we do this for the people? And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: I think so often companies are like, well, and especially in the CX space, and we'll probably spend a ton of time talking about this because this is what we really know. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But in the CX space, know, CX centers get labeled as a cost center. Constantly and let's go ahead and call it what it is, right? Yes There is a cost to run an organization and you don't see The a lot of companies don't contextualize This this idea as well, we're just spending for people to talk to people we're just spending for these things where this is a cost center instead CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: of thinking about like, okay Well, what are you gonna do? Who's gonna talk to your customers? Who's going CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: to take care of your customers? Who's going to provide empathy or enthusiasm for your customers? CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And so using the phrase cost center is just such an antiquated term, I think, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and is also just so it lacks nuance for what these CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: individuals are doing. And it's really interesting, you know, you and I have both spent time in startups. You have spent a lot more time in startups than I have. And what we do, and I think we both witnessed this. in the business cycle of they burn cash. Startups burn cash like it's going out of style, right? And then all of a sudden, all of a sudden they're like, apparently we're not supposed to light our cash on fire. How weird. Where can we start saving money? CX Joe: Somebody just informed us that we need a path to profitability. Layoff time. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, it's so weird. I can't, mean, I know you advise with so many companies, but I have seen this so many times where it's just like all of a sudden it's like, why would we spend money like this? What do we, what are we doing? Why, why are we burning through cash? And the very first place they step to every single time, the very first place they step to trying to cut costs is in the CX department where I argue. CX Joe: Trim down the team, outsource all the support. Yep. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. And here's the thing. I am a big fan of utilizing outsourced customer support divisions. CX Joe: Yeah, same. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And I know you are as well. And I believe that it is such a smart business move for certain types of conversations or certain types of. CX Joe: Right. The the the sort of blended Lynda Harvey: tiered problems. CX Joe: strategic tiered approach is what I'm a huge fan of and advise companies on on the side where you're Lynda Harvey: Yes. Yes. Yes. CX Joe: blending together nowadays AI, amazing offshore support where they're one and same in the team, they're treated well, they're part of the business, and then you're in house specialists as well. So I think this is sort of the blended approach that you're speaking to. Lynda Harvey: And it is so smart to do things like that. Number one, because I think that you get different work dynamics and different work cultures. when you have things that, especially when you go offshore, and I know that there's a lot of people who don't love the idea of offshore, and I am a huge proponent of it because I believe that you get a different kind of working dynamic, a different kind of work ethic that comes with CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: that as well. And then I think what it also does is it, allows you to diversify your experience and put things, your experiences. So you have like a really great escalation path for your customer experience, right? So CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: if you've got kind of your tier one that your AI is handling, like your tier one, and then you have maybe your offshore that's handling your tier two and then things that maybe, and, know, I've worked for all kinds of industries and in those industries, sometimes you have to have somebody in that country. And I'm not talking the U S specifically because you CX Joe: Uh-huh. Lynda Harvey: and I have both. managed global teams. have sprung up global customer support teams and worked outside of the United States, but sometimes you have to have somebody licensed in that country that you're talking to as well. Right. And so that way you can really diversify, but ultimately then you can also spend more on CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: your in-house people. I, I, CX Joe: Yes. Lynda Harvey: I will on this Hill, on this Hill, I will stay that we CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: need to pay that team. so much more. And we need to really, and when companies, when we're saying like to make your employee experience and keeping your employees happy, you've got individuals who are maybe talking to 80 to a hundred people a day. Yesterday, CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yes. Lynda Harvey: I didn't leave the house. I didn't leave the house. I didn't have conversations outside of the people CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: who dwell in my dwelling, right? CX Joe: Yeah. Yep. Lynda Harvey: When you think about people who are talking to 80 to 100 different people a day, sinking more money into that department and you can do those things by diversifying, by using kind of offshore teams or by using these business partners that can bring different nuances to your business. So you can actually invest in those people to invest in that employee experience who give the good customer experience. CX Joe: A million percent. Well, you know very well, Lynda, that you have me all fired up and excited now. And I'm gonna break down my excitement into two directions. one to compliment what you said and then one to kind of segue into you know one of the big and you know, big last portions we want to get into. But first just to compliment what you said, that i ⁓ yeah, this is another one I could do a whole season on. ⁓ in terms of, you know, keeping jobs in-house and then this this stigma with offshore support and everything, stigma with AI. ⁓ a perspective that I definitely have from 20 plus years managing these departments and you have, and the whole CX space generally has. And so interestingly, when you get within the space, there's actually not this holistic sort of overarching negative view ⁓ against Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: certainly offshore support and even AI. And the reason is is everything Lynda was just speaking to. So ideally, yes, in an I in an ideal world as a business scales, I led teams of like, 200, 250 people was the biggest they got, which was pretty big for my world. Of course, there's customer Lynda Harvey: Bitch, yeah. CX Joe: service organizations out there in the thousands, like Lynda's worked at Amex or Verizon or wherever, and you have to picture thousands or tens of thousands of customer service employees. And you want all of them, and and yes, you guard with kind of this certain extra passion and and ferocity. Like your in-house folks, if you're a US-based company, you picture like our in-house US-based folks, you want them to have the best job experience. You want them to be paid very well. You want them to get Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: all the best benefits and you want them to feel fired up when they sign into work every day. And you want their brains to be fully utilized and this like sort of cultural almost advantage they have of like, hey, I happen to work for US-based business. I live here, I am living the same lives as my customers. You want to take advantage of that to the fullest. What might surprise people is that that vision that a lot of us share and I share doesn't actually equate to the 250 people all being on the front lines. All being in-house US-based employees, or if you picture these large organizations, like 20,000, 50,000 people. Why is that? I think for a host of different reasons. It's really hard to pay and treat that many people. And it goes with the scale of the business. So when I led a team of 200, 250, you have to keep in mind that was like more than half the business. That was more Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: than half like the humans associated with that business. And so the sort of the prospect gets very, very hard to manage of treating all those people 10, 10 out of 10, compensation. benefits, stretches in their career. We have a culture in the US that, you know, I happen to overall love, but I'm also just stating it as a fact. Whether you like it or don't like it, we have a work culture in the US where every year or two you want that next level. You want a promotion. You want to raise. You Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: want your brain to be used in in different ways. Not to take away or say the wrong thing about any other work cultures, because it's actually not a bad thing. It's not like they're less ambitious or anything. It just looks different in other cultures. So for example, Lynn and I have worked with teams in the Philippines that has this incredible work culture around customer support. People go to college, they get their masters and they want their Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: whole career to be customer support. And if, you know, five, 10 years down the road, they get to be tier two and another five years tier three, by the end of their career, they're a manager. That's a successful career. It pays Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: them well. It's held in high esteem. And the idea of crushing customer conversations and working with a seat geek or a kin or whomever and being that company's like face and voice fires them up. If you don't believe me, you have to go. Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: I I've been to you know birthday celebrations after the shift and they would be praying for seat geek and everybody would be high-fiving and hugging and sh it's just a completely different work culture. So having this diversified team allows you to have everyone waking up every morning and just being blessed in their seat. Your team member in Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: the Philippines, who you love and respect and pay well for that market, they're fired up to speak to your customer. And now the escalation, the specialist, that which is US based and in-house, they're fired up. So I could go on and on as you could tell. But I think the other thing I want to speak on briefly and to you up ⁓ also, Lynda, is the other aspect of this is just getting into this dynamic of treating your people well. So the connection that I want to make sure is coming through in my long rant is that when do you actually keep your in-house team to a manageable size, whatever that is relative to your business? That could be five or 10 people, it could be 50 or it could be a thousand, depending on the scale of the business. But when you keep the size of that team in check relative to the business, what you then need to make sure to do And yes, even the customer supporter CX people, you've got to pay your people well. You've got to treat them well, and you have to start with the basics. And so I came to today's episode with a list of all the different ways that you could actually drive that virtuous cycle of team experience equals amazing customer experience. And it's like I have to cut myself off because you could have dozens or hundreds of different words and concepts on there. But actually in our in our brief, you know, episode chat, we not surprisingly aligned on the fact that while that While that list of of dynamics, you know, things to keep in mind and kind of nail could be dozens or hundreds long, we both start out with the same one or two items on top. So if you could speak to that a little bit more, Lynda, like even if you have to have compromises in some areas, like where can you not compromise to drive that virtuous cycle of great team experience equals great customer experience? I want to take a minute to thank our sponsor, Keen. One thing we talk about a lot on this podcast is that great customer experiences don't happen by accident. They happen because great people are behind them. But building those teams globally can feel overwhelming. Maybe you've looked at Deal, Remote, or another employer of record. Those platforms solve the legal side of hiring. Keen goes a step further. They help companies build dedicated customer experience, digital, creative, and operations teams. While handling the global employment infrastructure behind the scenes, whether you're making your first international hire or building a team of 100, Keen gives you the ability to scale without opening entities or managing the complexity yourself. I love the way they describe it. Hiring globally is easy. Building globally is hard. That's what Keen was built for. Learn more at KeentoHire dot com. And by the way, I know the founders, Jake and Martin. They're phenomenal people and they'll be great consultants to your business and give you an awesome world class experience. Check out at keen2hire.com. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And I think it's very nuanced. And I think that's so often we can say it all boils down to pay. First of all, yes, money is a factor. And money is a factor because we have to live. Just plain and simple. We do have to start there. CX Joe: You do kinda have to start there, right? If you get that terribly wrong, it's gonna be hard to recover in a way for the team. Lynda Harvey: Yes, but it's not just about pay, at least for me. Like, yes, we CX Joe: It's not just no. No. Lynda Harvey: have to be competitively. And, you know, I think about... I think about the state of California a lot. I promise this is going to make sense. I promise we'll get there. I think about the state CX Joe: I love this. Lynda Harvey: of California a lot because I think that for all of the things that we can say about California and the weirdness that ensues in California and Californians, you know, I'm talking about you and you know that it's right and it's fine, right? It's fine. CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I do believe that California kind of leads the market for so many things. And when they came out and said, It's expensive to live in California. We understand it's expensive to live in California. So our minimum wage is going to be this, right? And I didn't Google that before the show and I'm not going to Google it now, but it is significantly higher. I mean, I think it's like three times higher, the actual CX Joe: No. Lynda Harvey: minimum wage, the federal minimum wage, which is laughable. And still in California, that's still barely a living wage, right? But they came out and they said, we are going to do this. Or I think about some of the universities that came out and said, we are going to pay our student athletes. We understand that like we move forward because of this. So we are going to start paying our student athletes because it makes sense, right? Like it makes dollars and cents. So I think organizations really need to take that overall into consideration. Yes, you need to start at pay. And it's not just about being competitive for the market. It's about following California's rule going. It's not about, yes, the federal minimum wage is seven something, so we're going to pay 12. No, it's not that. We understand the cost of living. We understand what it takes to be in California. This is what we're going to do. That's the stance organizations should take when it comes to pay, especially when you're talking to people who their output. Like, listen, I understand you could have somebody, you could have a graphic designer who's incredible, but you've got graphic designers that are making 2X what your CX people are doing. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: and they have a quarterly project when your CX people are talking to 80 to 100 people a day. And CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: not just people, decision makers. These are people who decide to be part of your organization and how one poor experience, and there's so many statistics and there's books written about this, how one negative experience. For one person who has a negative experience with an organization, they shared with seven to 10 people, where CX Joe: Right. Lynda Harvey: one person who has a positive experience with your organization shares with one to three people. So I want you really to think about the impact. So yes, it starts with the money. CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: But then what organizations do is they start throwing other perks out there, or they start throwing things out there without doing the market research. And their market research should be with their employees. CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: of what matters to our employees. So they start doing like, we're going to give you a pizza party. If I have one more slice of pizza at work, I'm going to flip the table. Like I don't want any more pizza. Right. But it's, well, we're going to give you a birthday gift or we're going to do this. it's like, nobody, nobody cares about that. Ask your employees what drives value. Right. My favorite is CX Joe: It also has to be high quality and I'm sorry I'll I'll totally let you keep going, but I just want to interject that it also has to do with the quality of some of these ideas, interestingly. It it really does. Like Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: a pizza place from the best place in town and with like a really thoughtful and like we want to treat you as different than getting, you know, dominoes with our respected dominoes and also in birthday present. Domino I I I like I like all junk food, so yeah. But I think I think more notably like birthday present, for example, if you got somebody a really thoughtful and like luxurious birthday present that makes them feel elevated and appreciated is very different than getting like some tiny trinket that every so anyway, I I I think we'll get to all of Lynda Harvey: Yeah, a t-shirt that says happy birthday. CX Joe: this, but the qual the quality of how you execute on these things matters too. Lynda Harvey: 1 million percent, 1 million percent. And I think it's how do you drive again, how do you drive value and loyalty within your organization and give CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: them something meaningful? And that's what I CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: think is the most important thing is how do we provide for you something that's meaningful? And maybe it's not a one size fits all. Maybe it's, CX Joe: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: we have a catalog of things that you can pick from, and then you get to choose what's most meaningful for you. So when we're CX Joe: Mm. Lynda Harvey: showing up for you, maybe it's. Hey, we as an organization, we cover 50 % of your health benefits, right? Like that's CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: what we cover. But maybe in your catalog of things, you're like, I don't need a bonus. I don't want a bonus because I know that I need, I have 12 kids and I need more coverage on my health insurance. So I'm going to forego my health benefit or my bonus because I would rather have a larger percentage paid for these things. And the thing is, is it's not that hard. We have enough technology that we can do these things. I worked for CX Joe: I love that. Lynda Harvey: an organization that gave you travel benefits based CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: on your tenure. So at five years, you got like $5,000 travel voucher. And so you just went to your company thing. I know people who took trips of a lifetime because they, again, they, had been at the company five years. They went and cashed in on their 5,000. They got a bonus week of PTO to do it. And they got $5,000. And then at 10 years, they got $10,000. CX Joe: Yeah. I th I think that in itself is an incredible policy. And I also love the concurrent point you're making that the more you could actually empower people and give them choice to actually choose what sorts of benefits and rewards benefit them and their family. To your point, it I mean it's brilliant, period. And it also like really should be achievable nowadays with the right brain power and the right technology behind it. I mean, maybe for one person, I I I mean, I I'm really a fierce advocate of companies giving their team members really high quality healthcare. I worked for a small startup in the beginning of my career. And I'm thinking of some things we did wrong along the way again. It's all nuanced and you know, there's layers to it, but where even that tiny startup did start with kind of big, bigger company healthcare. And I'm huge advocate of that. It's right up there with pay. And then at the same time, what's also true to your point, Lynda, is what if you have a team member who's like, I really am I I love that we're doing that for everybody. I don't happen to need that because of my spouse or my parents or whatever. How cool and how empowering would it be to be like, great. Well, we as a company are saving that money. Would you like to use it on something else? Or s or to your point, you know, maybe there's like a travel perk that for some X percent of the business and the team, it just it it it's like their reason for staying. And then somebody else out there is like, nah, not actually, I it's funny, guys, not not so much my cup of tea, I stay local, but I could take advantage of this other reward and benefit. So now everybody's feeling the rewards and you're also being treated like an adult grown-up who has agency and could actually choose. you know, which benefits and rewards to take advantage of. So I love that point too. Lynda Harvey: And I think that what it feeds into is the greater conversation of, you know, there's all these research done about like, how do we drive loyalty at work and how do we do these things? Right. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: And one of the biggest things that people crave, and I see it in my comments, I have conversations about this all of the time is autonomy. And if, you even have the autonomy of how you are compensated at work, it's not just an overall. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: This is our one size fits all compensation package, but hey, this is something where you can build it. This, is a number one loyalty builder. And again, if you're providing that employee experience, they're going to tell everybody about it. You are going CX Joe: Yes, exactly. Lynda Harvey: to be the desired place to work. And you might say, well, why does that matter? Some place in the marketplace, you have to have a frontline customer. You have to have somebody who has purchasing power. And you never know who has influence over the people who have purchasing power. And so if you're treating your employees and you're giving them that level of autonomy or something to that effect, they talk CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: about it and you're the preferred employer. And when you're the preferred employer, ⁓ everybody knows about that. And CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: that's when people want to come purchase. ⁓ And that's even when they're willing to spend more money. ⁓ They might say like, well, Lynda's business is more expensive. But the reputation that comes with that and seeing the employee experience and seeing all of these things, I know it's not a revolving door. So my customer success manager is not going to be somebody who is new every single time, or I can see CX Joe: Exactly. Lynda Harvey: that they invest in these things. So when I'm making an informed decision with my money, CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: I'm going to go someplace that has kind of that reputation. And I think that CX Joe: Yeah. Lynda Harvey: that's where we're seeing a lot more of the shift in the marketplace. CX Joe: A hundred percent. I love it. And I mean that's that's one of the points that I just couldn't wait to plus one and amplify, which is, you know, the theme of the episode is this overarching concept of team experience equals customer experience. But to Lynda's point, you could actually break that down and start to get a little more specific with the business metrics or KPIs that you're looking at. So to your point, ⁓ team retention also is going to end up equaling greater customer retention. Because you're treating your your team members well and they're staying longer. And now they know the business and your customers inside and out, like the back of their hand. They bring years of experience to every meeting, an internal meeting, every customer facing conversation, drives a better customer experience. And my God, we've somehow solved now this customer retention, you know, issue that we've always had as a business. We'll start with a team. And then to your point, you know, this one would probably be more controversial, but I would believe in the research we could do of Paying your team more will will probably, to your point, also equal customer spending more. And it's because of all the same dynamics that we keep talking about. So when I when I thought about this stuff, I thought about comp and benefits needing to start out as like the first holy grail. Make sure that that you're taking care of your team members on a basic level. I thought about growth paths, career growth. Again, especially in, you know, I've been a part of this culture too. And I've had friends joke with me of like, why did you leave a company after a year or two? I didn't really want to. But sometimes it's because that growth path kind of dried up. And it's true, it motivates us, especially in our culture. So if you start with comp and benefits and you look at true career pathing and and and growth paths after that, start there. And then there's so much else that could follow. ⁓ first from the standpoint to your point, Lynda, of like fun perks. And we've talked about this even before we had a podcast, we would talk about this a lot. Again, the first company in my career, one thing we didn't always do well is we would do like the pizza parties, and we really Once I became a part of leadership, we genuinely want to show our gratitude with the small budget we had. But in retrospect, what's clear to me now is that pizza party is not going be received well if you're making 10 or 12 bucks an hour. If you're not being paid fairly, then it almost is it it it could almost be like salt in the wound, these Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: small perks. Whereas when you're being treated well, when you're getting a nice direct deposit twice a month, you have beautiful health insurance, maybe you get an update at once a month showing their equity has vested further. So you're a co-owner in the business. Well, now that pizza party tastes great. And now that Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: cool hat that was sent in the mail, this happened at a later company I worked at where those of us who felt like really satisfied with the way that we were paid and taken care of and we got great equity packages, I would freak out in a positive way to get that new sticker, the new hat. It was so fun for me. But I also did have the awareness and the empathy or at least try to fight the battles behind the scenes of like, you're wondering why that didn't hit as much with this group of team members. It's because you're not paying them well yet. So they don't want the sticker or the hat yet. 'Cause they need pay. also I just wanna, you know, sneak in. I mentioned before there are like hundreds of other aspects and we don't have time in this episode to unpack them all. But once you have the basics down, you of course you want to focus on things like honest feedback, both positive and negative, let people know how they're doing, striking a real sincere two-way dialogue, you know, with with leadership and and kind of the front lines. leadership always approaching conversations with honesty, showing respect to your team members, showing genuine gratitude every single day. Express words Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: of gratitude for especially for your frontline team members are the ones that are always pushing the boulder, you know, up the mountain and getting paid the least and maybe they're earlier in their career, but show your damn gratitude to them. Show humility Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: as a leadership team. very important one when you have critical feedback to share, always do that privately as a rule. And when you have praise to share, try to do it in public as often as possible. A lot of leaders get that wrong, and that's a big one. and truly involve your team members and empower them in. including and actually shaping the culture and the policies of the business, making them feel a part of things. So that's at least a preview to all the other episodes we could do, Lynda, but those are some of the things I think really important to get right. Lynda Harvey: Right? Right? I agree. I agree. And I think that's a mic drop moment in all honesty. I think that's the mic drop. CX Joe: Why, thank you. Okay, thanks. Lynda Harvey: I think that's where we wrap things up. CX Joe: Lynda is g Lynda's guiding the episode again. Thank goodness. Thank goodness for Lynda. Lynda Harvey: I just don't think that we can, you know, it's like we're good. The cake is iced. We are good. We are good. Yeah. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Yeah, okay. Good. Lynda Harvey: Call it done. Amazing. So, but I think we covered some really great topics. I think we've CX Joe: Me too. Lynda Harvey: given the people a taste. think again, at the basis of everything we've talked about is again, we're talking about humanity at work. We're talking about how do we bring the people, just our customers, but all of the people CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: back to the center. of the things that we do. CX Joe: Mm-hmm. Lynda Harvey: So I think it was good. I think it was good episode. CX Joe: Same, same. So what else is on your mind, Lynda? What has you Lynda Harvey: Well, you know, I'm going to have to ask you because, you know, this is how we close the episode. CX Joe: Yeah, yeah. Lynda Harvey: Anything that's got you hot under the collar, Joe? CX Joe: Yeah, I'll so my sister kindly and my sister and nephew are staying with us this week and so it's really special because my older son and and my nephew are able to go to a day camp together just for the week. They're in from out of town, but it was a nice idea. Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: We've had done a couple of times where they could just go to camp together for a week. So today my sister handled the drop-off, which I've done other days, and so we're both bothered under the something about the same thing, which is basically when you have Positive intentions. We drop the kids off at camp. There are certain procedures to dropping them off. Totally Lynda Harvey: Mm-hmm. CX Joe: understand these procedures are well meaning. Child safety is in mind. Also all the Lynda Harvey: Yes. CX Joe: respect in the world to like running this complex, you know, operation of the day camp every day. But when things get to that level where you could tell people are just having fun with the control and the little power trip. So we have people in like very bright shirts and kind of the air traffic controllers as we drive in. We're driving like five miles per hour very safely. We know where the drop off area is. And they're just like overdoing it though, like air traffic, like left, left, cut the wheel more, slow down, speed up. Where is your sticker? Where are the hanging things in the car? And we're like, we're just talking to each other. So it'll be like, yeah, sorry, it's right here, but it's Kai and Caleb Gilgoff. Where is the sticker? Okay, here's the sticker. Okay, wheel in to the left. And then now they pass you out of their airspace, like to the next team member in a bright shirt, the air Lynda Harvey: jeez. CX Joe: traffic controllers. And as you enter their airspace, they're like, Why are you going left? Got the wheel right. We're like, because he was just telling me. And you know, I'm 43 years old, and there could be like a pack of three to five, like 18-year-olds, and they're just making me want to cry. They're making me feel so belittled. Like, why did you do that? Stay in the car. If you try to get out of that car, Lynda, I'm like, my son, I just opened the door and he hops out. Stay in the car, damn it. Kids' lives are at stake. By the time you Lynda Harvey: Yeah. CX Joe: leave, it is very stressful. Like my sister got home like, thanks doing drop off how to go. She was like, That was a lot. I got yelled at. I'm like, I know. ⁓ It's traumatic. It's hashtag traumatic. Lynda Harvey: see, and I wanted in that whole CX Joe: All right. I had one this week, Lynda. ⁓ Lynda Harvey: thing, I was like, geez, if they just would have hired one or the two of us to come in and consult, I would remind them it CX Joe: Just yeah. Lynda Harvey: is not your customer's job to know your process. That's what you're here for. And kindness goes a long ways. So good times. CX Joe: ⁓ No. Just tell us. Yes, it does. Have some grace. Alright, what about you, Lynda? ⁓ Lynda Harvey: Well, I have something that's literally making me hot under the collar. It's fires. My entire state's on fire. So that's that sucks. CX Joe: my god, things just took a sharp turn again. My trivial Lynda Harvey: You CX Joe: life here in the woods of New Jersey and just like the welfare of her state. Lynda Harvey: I don't think that your emotional distress is trivial at all, Joe. I'm not trying to like play speed or CX Joe: Thank you. Lynda Harvey: downplay any of that. But yeah, CX Joe: my goodness. Lynda Harvey: my whole state's on fire. So there's that. Again, CX Joe: You're really just gonna leave it there. Lynda Harvey: data centers. So whatever. CX Joe: Okay. Well, on that note, Lynda Harvey: I love that. CX Joe: everybody send your best wishes to the state of Utah. Lynda Harvey: Get your lades, everybody get the cards put on your damn sticker and figure out how to. CX Joe: Please, if every yeah, everybody could ⁓ send your best wishes to my next camp drop off and to the actual literal well being and welfare of Lynda's home state, that would be very much appreciated. Lynda Harvey: All right, thanks everybody. CX Joe: Okay, thanks so much. Back away from the scene. Team experience equals customer experience on three. One, two, three. Go team. Like and subscribe. Lynda Harvey: Yeah, like and subscribe. Bye. CX Joe: Bye. Lynda Harvey: And thanks again to Keen for sponsoring today's episode. If you're growing your business and thinking about building a global team, don't stop at finding an employer of record. Find a partner that helps you build the team too. Check out KeentoHire.com to learn more.