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Assertive Communication for Co-Parents: Boundaries That Work in Any Family Court Case · SPLITUP

• 0:07
  Speaker: This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not legal or psychological advice.
• 0:12
  Speaker: Listening does not create a professional relationship with a split up or any guests.
• 0:17
  Speaker: Launi and Robert are only licensed in the state of Arizona.
• 0:20
  Speaker: For legal or mental health concerns, please consult a licensed professional in your state.
• 0:26
  Speaker: Guest identities may be changed for privacy.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Hi, welcome to Split Up.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: I'm Launi Sheldon, co-founder of Split Up and attorney in Arizona, family law attorney in Arizona for 25 years.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: And I'm Robert DiCarlo.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I'm a licensed psychologist in Arizona and a co-founder of Split Up.
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Welcome.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So today I wanted to talk about again, we're kind of doing uh ask the doctor thing because I really like asking Robert lots of questions.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: And so I do have some questions I want to ask him, and it's about developing strength and assertiveness during divorce.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: So a lot of people going through divorce say yes to a lot of things.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Now, I understand as attorneys um we try and stop that.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: We try and make sure that they're getting a good deal.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Um, but many people just want it to be over with and they want um they just say yes because that's what they've been sort of programmed to do for the years.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: And so, Robert, talk about why this happens and when does keeping the peace become problematic?
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: So, I mean, there's probably a lot of reasons, but I think many people learn to keep the peace because conflict may feel unsafe to them.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: It could also be exhausting and tapping the resources and just creating a lot of feelings of being overwhelmed.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Um, sometimes that pattern started in childhood and sometimes it just developed during the course of the existing relationship that's dissolving, or perhaps other relationships.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: But what we do know is during the divorce, the pressure gets stronger because people worry about things like the kids or court or money.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: They may think about, you know, is my co-parent or ex going to retaliate?
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: Um, or will I be seen as difficult?
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: So they may say yes before thinking, or even having you know, you know, even further processing around it.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: And that could lead to apologizing when they did nothing wrong or agree to things that they later regret.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: So I think here the key distinction is choosing peace is different from disappearing to keep the peace.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Um, and de-escalating can be really healthy, but that might require confronting a conflict.
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: So if you keep silencing yourself or losing track of your own needs and feeling resentful afterwards, that's probably a sign that the pattern is costing too much for you.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: So a good reflection question might be what would I want if I were not afraid of conflict?
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's actually a great way to say it.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: And I usually ask my clients, look, look, what's your goal?
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: Let's start with a goal, and then you get to know where you would be if all things worked out fine.
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: Um, a lot of I'm gonna say women, but I'm sure there are some men who fall into this case, but um, that are people pleasers, they're raised that way.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Um, and I I think that that's a hard thing to go back on.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: They don't want to cause problems, they don't want to rock the boat.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Um, and and by the way, oftentimes it's not, well, let me say it's not unusual for women to, when they get assertive, that now they're being called names, they're being called the B word, they're um they're just really being assertive in a normal way, but they've never been that way.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: So why did you change?
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: Why are you becoming such a bitch?
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Why whatever, right?
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: And so um so talk to me about the difference between being assertive and being aggressive, because I I definitely have my opinions on it, um, but I want to hear what you say first.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and before I even go there, just commenting on the piece around, you know, if a woman might stand up for herself and be more assertive, then she's viewed a certain way.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: And that also ties into gender biases that we might have.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: And and that can be different depending on the culture and family that you grew up in.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: But a man versus a woman saying the same thing can be received very differently.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: So as that relates to assertiveness, I view assertiveness as kind of existing along a spectrum.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: And on one end of that spectrum, you might be in like more of the passivity range, and on the other end of that spectrum, full-blown aggression.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: Assertiveness is going to be kind of right in the middle of that spectrum.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: So, what that might sound like, passive communication, for example, on the far end of the spectrum in that direction might be, oh, whatever you want, or I guess that's fine, even when you know it's not fine.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: And it's it's reinforcing because it may reduce conflict in the moment, but you may feel resentful later.
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: And that resentment is gonna build and maybe inform some unhealthy communications or unhealthy behaviors.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: So that's on the kind of passive end of the spectrum.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: If we go to the other side and we're in like the aggression end, um, that's gonna be comments like, you always do this, or you're impossible, or you're gonna regret this.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: And on that end, you may feel really powerful, but that power is brief and fleeting, and it's probably gonna escalate the conflict.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: So you're gonna want to be somewhere in the sort of middle range where it's clear, it's calm, it's really boundaried.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: And it might sound something like, hey, that schedule doesn't work for me, or I need time to review this, or can you please put that in writing?
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: You know, things that are uh, you know, balancing, you know, your assertive need, but doing it in a calm and boundaried manner.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: Um, so assertiveness, by the way, is not about winning the exchange.
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: It's about staying connected to your values while protecting your own peace.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm gonna throw something in there because where would in in the in the passive area and then more of the aggressive area?
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: So where in here um is this well for lack of a better way to say it, no is a complete sentence.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: No.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: As in like you're just responding to a request or some sort of impromptu and you're just gonna say no.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So you know, I have um clients who just felt like they've needed to explain everything.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: You know, no, I'm sorry I have to do this, no, I'm sorry I have to do that.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: And they'd prefer to make up a lie than just say no.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: And I think no is fine.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Um, I do think that sometimes things should require an explanation.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Um if you want, I don't want to say keep the peace, but uh because that really is kind of keeping the peace.
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: But if you do want to co-parent, you don't just want to be like no, because I it I think that sounds not very nice.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: Um and I don't think it's conducive to co-parenting.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: I think I even if you just say no, that's not gonna work for me.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: And then again, I as a peace as a peacemaker, I would say sorry, I don't, that's not gonna work for me.
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: So I would throw in the apology and I would still say no.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: And I'd probably rather make up a lie than than say like no, I don't feel like it, or no, you know what I mean?
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: So what are your thoughts on no as a complete sentence?
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, as as it relates to no being just a straightforward NO period, no is not very informative.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: So obviously it's gonna depend on the context of what's being asked or requested.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: No doesn't really teach anything, um, similar to like what we tell kids, no doesn't teach.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: You know, you've got to be a little bit more informative than um than just simply no, because no can also be uh possibly interpreting the the receiver could interpret the no as applying to one part of the message and not another.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: So you could be opening yourself up for more dialogue anyway.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I would just be really concrete and clear about what you're not in agreement with.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: No, I do not agree to X, period.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Hard stop.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: And it can be that straightforward.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: This is a particularly useful Lanian in cases and co-parenting dynamics in which you might have a lot of maybe coercive controlling behaviors or um just being sort of backed into a corner continuously and always feeling the need to explain yourself or justify your reasons.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: Um, you don't have to provide a justification if one is not warranted.
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: Now, there are co-parenting circumstances where dialogue is expected.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: You know, like if you are not agreeable, for example, to your co-parents' request to change your child's school, I don't think no, I don't agree is going to be sufficient because you're not actually hearing, potentially in some situations, you haven't heard what their argument is for changing the schools, and you're not able to engage in that material and say why you're opposed to it or offering alternatives.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: So again, like you don't want to shut down co-parenting communications, but if you've already expressed your opinion or your um position on a particular issue and you're just being worn down by the same question, a simple no, I don't agree, or please see my previous response where I said no, I don't agree.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: And that will shut it down.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: I'm writing down notes because I do want to touch on this.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: I think, I think what you were saying about the school was a really good one because I do want to go into a problem-solving podcast.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: Um, and I think that's that's a perfect way to start.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: So we'll hit that one later, but if I'm just I'm writing notes, you say things and then I write them down because I'm like, that's a really good idea.
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: So well, and and just to expand on that briefly, if you're the parent who initiated that um that idea or request or change, and your co-parent responds with just a straightforward no, that's going to be evidence that they can take to whoever they would like, perhaps a judge, to say, look, my co-parent isn't willing to cooperate or engage with me in any way.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: You may be appearing as the controlling one.
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: You may be appearing to be unreasonable or not willing to um hear what could be a potentially good idea.
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for something like a school change, I think you do need to add a little bit to the end of that sentence.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: No, so-and-so's doing great at this school, loves this school, has had friends here for five years.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: I don't see any reason to change.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Um, depending on what the reason was.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Listen, it drives me crazy when somebody moves across town and goes, the kid has to change schools.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Right, right.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: So that just that just is one of those things that just pisses me off because it's like, let's let's think about the kid here for a minute.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: You just moved and now you want the kid who's had this school and these friends for five years to to go to a different school in the middle where he or she can't ride their bike to their friend's house.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: They can't hang out with people because you don't want to drive the extra 15, 20 minutes, but you want this other parent to drive.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: So, anyway, whatever.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: We'll get into that.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: A whole we can, and that's sort of a specialty topic, I agree.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: What about something that's just a little bit more mundane and probably common for co-parents?
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: And that might be a schedule change request, not a permanent, but a one-off.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Like, hey, I've got family coming into town.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I know the kids are with you this week, but the grandparents would really love to see them.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: Would you mind if I kept the kids this weekend?
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: Totally reasonable request, right?
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: In a high-conflict co-parenting situation, that might be viewed by the other parent who's receiving the request as improper or excessive, or maybe they've been given instructions that they should really adhere closely to their parenting time schedule and just make everything work the way they need it to under the parameters of the parenting plan.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And if it was my client, by the way, who who did that, I would if you, if my client's asking, I would say offer the makeup time now because you want to see that in there when we go back to court and say this person won't work with you.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: Well, and and I guess I would be looking at it from more of like what is in the best interest of the kids first.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: Is this do you think that it's good for the kids to have time with this family?
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: And that may not be even your um within your purview if it's not your parenting time, right?
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: We're not going to micromanage the other parents' um relationships unless there's safety issues, of course.
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: But let's just assume that you're in a general sense okay with that contact.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: So, Launi, you you had mentioned, you know, uh advising your client to um, you know, ask for makeup time for a certain optic of if somebody were going back and reviewing it.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: I would say even more so, consider first off, you know, if you're not in total disagreement with them having that um that exchange with, you know, other family members or just swapping your parenting time, it's more about is it going to benefit the kid?
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: But even if you believed it was good for the kid, you may not have that as an option.
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Maybe you already had plans or you had tickets to something.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: It's okay to say no if it's within the parameters of your parenting plan.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: You don't need excessive explanation.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: But in this situation, an explanation may be helpful in at least closing the loop on the discussion.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: So I'm sorry, I'm not able to accommodate that this weekend.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: We already have plans.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: If the other parent now continues to engage, that's where you could just reference, hey, please see my pre my previous response.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: You don't have to keep engaging and convincing them of the no.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I I we get this sometimes um because it's like, well, what are you doing?
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: And you get the back and forth, right?
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, um, for somebody who's been in a passive relationship and just wants to keep the peace, that's difficult.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: But I think you just say, you know, I don't need to explain that to you.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you we have other plans.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Um, I'm sorry we can't accommodate.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Um now, what probably has happened by this time is the kid's gonna come in and say, Why can't I go?
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Because the other parent has already let's go.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: I know I'm taking you way out of the circle of where we were going to be, but what do you then tell your kid who might rather like your plans might be, you know, a counseling appointment or a doctor appointment or a dentist appointment or something that you know that the kid does not want to do or doesn't care about doing, as opposed to going to see do something that they really want to do?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: So first off, um, your kids don't always have to be happy with you or the decisions you make for them.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: And that's hard as a parent, especially if you're already in a people-pleasing mode with your kids, or because you've experienced maybe parent-child contact problems or alienation dynamics, you may be especially sensitive to your kid coming back and saying, why couldn't I go with mom or dad uh to this really fun thing, but I have to go to a counseling appointment uh while I'm at your house?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Um that's legitimate.
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, put yourself in the child's, you know, uh shoes.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: There the the two options, one is clearly more favorable than the other.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: So you can you can validate without agreeing.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: You could say, I'm really sorry, that sounds disappointing that you can't go do that.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Um, unfortunately, we already had these um these appointments scheduled, and um maybe it'll happen next time.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: And I do I do know that's hard for some parents, you know, especially when there is something like that, especially when there is high conflict and you've got a negative parent or parents saying negative things over here, and now you've just, you know, rained on your kid's parade and for a valid reason, but it's it's hard because now it just gives the other parent more ammunition to come back and say what a shit you are.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: So well, and the other thing that happens too, especially for parents that are trying to find that balance between assertiveness and not becoming overly aggressive but not being too passive, is that they look at a singular event and kind of um catastrophize it, like it will always be this way, or this event will carry more weight than others.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: I think if parents stop and kind of zoom out a little bit and think about what are the patterns and themes in my inner relationships with my kids and my co-parent, am I regularly denying my co-parent requests just because I want to deny them or because I'm stuck in my own version of what needs to happen?
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Um, if you're viewing it as or sort of recognizing a pattern, you may want to like loosen up a little bit and be flexible at times if it's appropriate.
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Um, if it's not, if it's a one-off, I wouldn't put too much emotional energy into it and not worry about it so much as sort of some negative data point against you by some judge or evaluator if it's like once or twice you've denied a request.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: So sometimes it seems like when when parents maybe are have had some domestic violence or some just difficult relationship issues with the other parent and they just don't necessarily know what they want.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: Do they want to please the person?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Do they want to just stick to their guns?
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Um if if if going either way really wouldn't make a difference to the kid.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: Um so if they don't really know what they want, what do you you know, but so do they default to being the the people pleaser, or do they fault to just saying no?
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Like, how do they make that decision if they're not really sure what they want yet?
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this is my favorite kind of dilemma.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: It's like the person who overly acquiesces.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And so that's fine if you don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: And so your co-parent's decision might be just as good as any other.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: So you're like, I'm just gonna go with the flow, it keeps the peace.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: I don't have a dog in this fight anyway.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: Um, that's great until the moment you do have a passionate idea about something or a strong feeling about the way something should be.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: And it's not that you've set a precedent, but you've you've conveyed to your co-parent that you haven't had strong opinions in a lot of different areas.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: So um, especially when someone has spent years adapting to another person or trying to avoid conflict, it's really important that that person who's navigating that um creates a lot of clarity before they communicate.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: So um a helpful tool, and this isn't like a clinical tool necessarily, it's just sort of something helpful that um, you know, we thought of to maybe help parents who are in this situation, is use the acronym WANT, W-A-N-T.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: So it's a it's a tool to help you check in before you make a decision.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: So the W or the first part of this, W, what is happening?
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: So stick to the facts, describe it in your mind or sketch it out on paper.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: What are the facts around this particular situation?
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Um, we'll just go with the school choice thing.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: The other parent wants to switch the child's school.
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: You might put down some other facts there that the uh child has been at the school that they're currently at for the last five years.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: They only have one more year at the school anyway.
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: You know, lots lots of different variables you can consider.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: The second part is A, which is the affect.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: What am I feeling?
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: So this is going to be really, really telling for you.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: If you're feeling a sense of pressure, if you're feeling scared, guilty, maybe angry or confused, write that down or make that part of your equation in checking in with yourself.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: The next part is need or N.
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: What do I need before I answer?
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: So this is really critical because sometimes parents, especially if you identified pressure as the A, the affect, um, you may just need more time to process.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe you don't have all the information about the schools, maybe you don't have all the information you need, maybe you don't have the emotional supports you need to make the decision, or people in your corner that can help kind of walk you through that.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Um, maybe there's a safety issue.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: Um, maybe making a certain decision places you in a vulnerable position from a safety perspective.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Maybe you need legal guidance, maybe you need split up.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Um, and then T would be the truth.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: What is my honest position?
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: So put that down.
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: Like even if it's just not something that you are likely to act on, you want to know what your truth is and what your honest position is.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: Because even if you have an idea about something, it doesn't mean it's informed by the information.
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Does that make sense, Launi?
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Um I I have to say, I think this is where we all get it, let me think about it, right?
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: It it comes down to let me think about it, like what I always told my kids give me a little bit of time, let me think about it.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: With um Britney, it meant for sure I was gonna do it.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: And with my other kids, it meant probably not, but I still wanted that time to process and think about all of the everything that could happen if that happens.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: So in in my mind, it was always time.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Time was just a really good important part.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Um well, and time is sometimes required for information gathering.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: So and your parenting plan, by the way, may have.
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Specific parameters on how long you can wait before you respond to a co-parent.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: That doesn't mean you have to have the answer.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: And I think a lot of parents misunderstand that.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: You don't have to know what your answer is, you just have to provide a response.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: So using that method, you can say, um, I need to check my schedule before I respond.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: I'll get back to you and then tell them when you'll get back to them.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: And that's got to be reasonable.
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: You can't say, I'll get back to you in six months.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: It's got to be within a reasonable expected time frame, you know, like I'll I'll get back to you by the end of the week.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I I agree a hundred percent.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: I I like to see my clients respond timely and say I need more time.
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: Or listen, if they disagree with what was said, say I disagree, but I will respond later, or I disagree a hundred percent and I'm not gonna respond any further.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: But for something like this, absolutely give yourself the time.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Um, so let's talk about like phrases people can use with the co-parent to create boundaries.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: Again, not sounding trying not to sound difficult.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Um I mean, I don't know.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: I need my boundaries.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know that that's gonna work, right?
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, like what language do you use to set boundaries?
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: And by the way, I think I I mean, let's talk about boundaries too.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: What is a boundary?
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Talk about that first, and then if you could go into some language for it.
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: Well, you made a comment about um, you know, I need my boundary.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: And if you said that to somebody, it could be interpreted 10 different ways depending on who you told that to.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: So boundary, saying I need a boundary doesn't communicate anything other than I'm feeling vulnerable or I need some guardrails on this.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: But that's essentially what a boundary is.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: It's a it's a guardrail, it's a parameter, it's a limit, it's it's what you're willing to do and not do.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: And when you build small, healthy boundaries, that builds strengths.
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: So you don't need to start with a major confrontation.
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: You just need to know what your limits are in a particular situation.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: So when we talk about boundary phrases that could um either create a placeholder in time for you to come back with more information, or just identify what the upper limit of what you're willing to do.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So we already talked about one, I need more time to think about that.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Um, you can even say, I can't answer right now.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And you don't need to go into a lengthy explanation about why you can't answer, but it is helpful to indicate when you can answer, like I'll respond by tomorrow evening at 5 p.m.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: That puts your co-parent on notice, so they're not just waiting indefinitely for a response from you.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: Um, you can also have a boundary around perhaps communications verbally have not gone well.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Uh, maybe there's a history of um argumentativeness in your verbal conference uh conversations with the co-parent.
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: And from a legal perspective, perhaps, or or even just a documentation perspective, you want things in writing.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: So you could tell your co-parent, I'm I'm not discussing this by phone.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Um, please send this in an email, or please put this in writing.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Um, or if they're bringing in topics that aren't related to your co-parenting task of raising your joint children or child together, um, that's the boundary that needs to be set.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I will only discuss child-related logistics.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Um, if they're asking you questions about your current relationship or your family or your personal opinions on things, if you are not comfortable, that's your boundary.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Or if that's not part of your co-parenting dynamic, um, there's no need to start now unless there's a compelling reason.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: You don't have to be best friends with your co-parent, you just have to work together with them.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Um, you can also make validating statements that set a boundary, like, I understand you disagree.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: You're conveying to your co-parent, I get that you don't agree with me on this.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Nothing more needs to be said about that.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: We're at an impasse.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Um, there may be a next escalation, then it could go to somebody else making a particular decision for you.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: Um, but the big one that I think is really critical is if you're not feeling safe or you're in a situation where the conversation is clearly not going in a direction that will result in a solution, you just say I'm ending this conversation now.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: That sends a really strong message.
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: So I want to address two things in what you just said.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Um, first, one of the things I used to tell my ex was if you would send me a long like email, you know, complaining about things for the first, you know, four or five paragraphs and then there was something I probably needed to respond to in that last paragraph, I would send back a note that said, I'm not reading this, make it a hundred words or less, and then I'll read it.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Um and I I think we have to do that.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: I think people don't have to read a bunch of negative stuff about themselves before they um just to get to the point of one thing that might be, you know, down the page 2,000 words down there, whatever in the email.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: So that was number one.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I think you can set up boundaries, and I strongly urge you to do that in your parenting plan.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: And like Robert said, you know, split up will help you with that.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Um, we do have good videos on parenting plans.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: So make sure you're you're setting appropriate boundaries that will help you during that time.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: And then the second thing you just said was the safety.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Um and I do feel like there's times where assertiveness can make you feel unsafe and possibly even be unsafe.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: And so what you know, you had said a little bit about that, but can you be can you spend more time on what people should do if they're not feeling safe in being assertive?
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let me address the first part that you said.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: You know, first you don't need the other parent to agree that your boundary is reasonable for the boundary to be valid.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think it's totally appropriate to set a, you know, a character limit, if you will, on how much you're willing.
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, if they're sending you 10 pages of text, you know, that's not reasonable.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: There's no good co-parenting reason why you should have to spend an hour deciphering, you know, a very lengthy email.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: They should be, I mean, we I'd be hard pressed to find anybody who does family court work or been in family courtwork who has not come across Bill Eddy's work.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: But if you haven't, um he's uh an attorney and social worker who came up with the BIF BIF method, B I F F.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Um, certainly um look up his work because a lot of people use that as the standard, but brief, informative, friendly, and firm.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: So I'm looking for his book.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: I know I have his books all around.
• 28:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: I might look a little odd.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, everybody loves Bill Eddy's work and they do because it's effective.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: So, you know, an example of applying um the Biff method would be instead of a comment like, You always change the schedule because you don't respect my time, you can say, I can't change the exchange exchange time today.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I'll be at the usual location at 5 p.m.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: So that's a I am.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: I'm this is a great time for me to plug this book.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: So Annette Burns wrote this one with him, and it's your guide to difficult co-parent texts, emails, and social media posts.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: So this is a book that my friend and Robert's friend, Annette Burns, uh wrote with Bill Eddy and Kevin, I'm assuming is it Chaffin?
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Do you know him?
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Um and so we will link this because this is a really great one, and I'll probably link his other book down.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: Uh this is such an important book.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: It's really well, and it's so it's wouldn't you agree, Launi?
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: It's so accessible.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: It's not just um, it's not written from the perspective of having to be a professional.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can read it as a parent, you can read it, read it from the perspective of being a litigant, an attorney, a mental health professional.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: Can you can you say like it's super easy because it's like there's a biff checker?
• 30:13
  unknown: Yeah.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: It's like a yes, a yes, a no, and a maybe.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Do you see that?
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Like it's it's super easy to use.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: Um I need to I need to meet with Annette on this book because we we I plugged her other one in a podcast, and I want to plug her on this one, but this is this is a great book.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: So when we're talking about Biff, this is one of many that he's written, and he also has a website.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, sorry.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, great, great plug for Bill.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: Um, so yeah, you would ask specifically around situations in which assertiveness may feel less safe and maybe put the person in a risky situation.
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: So this is absolutely an important topic, um, particularly if you've been in a relationship involving domestic violence, uh course of control, which is um a component of domestic violence that I think is becoming more understood in terms of its implication in family court cases.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: If there's been stalking, threats, intimidation, uh retaliation, both legal and otherwise, socially, maybe, uh, maybe there's a lot of fear in the relationship.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Any of those factors can lead to an increase in danger for the person trying to be assertive and assert their needs and boundaries.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Um Robert, I do have a question for you.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Um, another one that maybe we really hadn't talked about much before, but you know, when we work out and we lift weights, right, we do that to build muscles.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: And I think people need to do some kind of workout or use some sort of tools to build to develop that strength, right?
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: To learn how to become a little more assertive and a little less passive in uh any kind, and I say divorce, but it's also you know, paternity, custody, any family law litigation, um they may need to learn to you know trust themselves and make themselves be a little stronger.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Do you have any tools or little things they can practice to do that?
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, my first thought is if, first off, if you're if you've been a victim of domestic violence, or even if you don't identify it as domestic violence and you just don't feel you have the strength to be assertive, um, working with a good coach or therapist can be really, really helpful in helping you see things from a different perspective and challenging maybe some of the unhelpful beliefs that maybe you've convinced yourself of that when you are assertive, then something else must be true.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: A therapist can really help you unpackage those things to remove those sort of artificial barriers.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: Um, but you can start small.
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: You can you can start having a sort of moments in your day-to-day life by by challenging yourself in situations that feel safer to do it in.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: It's like developing a proxy.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So maybe it's just um, I don't know, maybe you're not that kind of person at a restaurant that would ever send your food back because you don't want to offend anybody, but your meal is just horrible.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: That might be a safe situation outside of maybe having your food tampered with.
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: Maybe some restaurants are better than you're not going to be attacked by a co-parent.
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: There's not going to be a legal repercussion.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: It's just a matter of practicing the strength of, wait, I can advocate for myself here.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I don't have to tolerate, you know, this particular meal if I don't like it.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: And you can do that in a polite, clear, and friendly way, but it's practicing the skill set of confrontation.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: Rather than staying quiet, I'm going to speak up in a way that helps me get my needs met.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: So that's just a small way.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So I think um this kind of just came to me while I was listening to you.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: I I I think knowledge also helps, right?
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: If you're feeling like you just don't know, especially in a family court situation, um, if you don't know what your rights are.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: And somebody says with you know, a lot of authority that they probably don't even know anyway, but they say it as if they know what the law is and you believe them.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: I think you feel like you have to give in.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: So I think educating yourself in family court is a really good way to help you um develop some of that assertiveness too, just because you know you're not going to go around with somebody who goes, you can't do this, and you're like, Yeah, I can, um, because you know.
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: And that's one of the things we really, you know, for split up, we're an educational forum, really.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: We the app is made to educate people on um all parts of family law.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: And so if somebody's acting as if you don't deserve some amount of the retirement or some amount of a pension or anything from the house because they've been the one that's the sole provider, but maybe you stayed home and took care of the kids.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Um that's probably not true.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, certainly check the laws in your jurisdiction, but it's probably not true.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: You probably have a lot of rights unless you've signed off, and then that's a whole different issue.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: But um, but knowledge really is power.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: You hear that, but it's you hear it because it's true, right, Robert?
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Would you agree?
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, and you don't know what you don't know.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: So you're operating from a position, a disadvantaged position because why would you distrust what somebody is telling you?
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: So I think the skill set there would be to question and be curious, you know, maybe not be so uh fearful or reactive when you hear something, but like, oh, that's an interesting perspective.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna look into that and see if there's alternative perspectives.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: And when you view it from that less threatening lens or framework, um, you're probably gonna be more open to new information and you may advocate for yourself better.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's much easier to advocate for yourself when you actually have knowledge of what to do.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: And I um before we kind of wrap this up, there is one other thing that I do want to point out.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: And it's it's you're kind of like buyer's remorse when you go buy something and then you hate it, whether it's a car, whether it's clothes, whatever it is.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: That happens in settlements sometimes because somebody doesn't advocate for themselves or because they don't know what they don't know and they didn't know that they deserved half of this.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've gone back to court numerous times trying to get mediation agreements set aside because they were just blatantly unfair.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: Um I I think again, the knowledge helps, but don't settle until you know.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: And I I had a client go, I just don't even want any of that retirement.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: I don't care.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, you will in a year, you'll care.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: You will care.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: You know, right now it's hard.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Right now this is difficult.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: Well, and even going back to the um the want uh tool, you know, that affect piece, you know, if you're feeling guilty because you did something in the relationship, that may also inform your willingness to maybe acquiesce or give in or not take advantage of something that you're otherwise entitled to.
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: So you can apply that tool across a number of different situations.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: I did want to circle back though, Launi, because we are talking about people in danger situations.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, when you're considering applying assertiveness in those situations and it's not safe, strength in that regard may not look like a confrontation.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: In fact, it may look like more quiet planning, using safer communication channels.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: It might look like you just taking really careful documentation, working with a victim's advocate, obviously speaking with an attorney if you can, or getting some sort of professional support before making major changes.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Because in those situations where you have uh violence and similar dynamics at play, being assertive may not be safe at all.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: So just some warning signs, you know, include being afraid of the other person's reaction.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: That's going to be a first big clue to, you know, the safety or informing the safety.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Um, if you're being monitored, if if somebody's like tracking your movements either through a private investigator or air tags or um GPS tracking, that's a red flag.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Um when you're being punished or retaliated against simply for disagreeing or having a different perspective, that's a warning sign.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Um and then there's like obvious things like threats to harm you, harm other people, harm the children, harm pets.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, that that comes up sometimes, you know, threatening to harm other objects of affection or property.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: Um, and and the other person becoming more dangerous when they feel rejected or exposed.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: If you're experiencing those things, um you probably do need to consult with a professional or start engaging in some sort of safety planning rather than trying to apply some assertiveness framework.
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: And I think besides the fact that I completely agree with all of that, I just also want to say, you know, $100 a month extra in child support is not worth it.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Um, a house isn't worth it.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: There are things that aren't worth dying over.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Um, and so you need to keep that in mind.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Do you want to give up everything?
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: No, as your attorney, do I want you to give up everything?
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: No.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, my job's to advocate for you.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: But I was just telling Robert today, and we were looking at doing another podcast, on the amount of domestic violence out there and the amount of people who have been murdered even in the last 30 days.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: It's it's that's not worth it.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's not worth it.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Sometimes your safety is really what you need to worry about.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: So I just want to I want to jump on that bandwagon that that Robert started and say, yeah, that's there may be a time not to fight so super hard for, you know, the beanie babies, um the, you know, whatever it is that that your ex might want, um, that your safety is really most important.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: And if you can't afford an attorney, you know, go to a volunteer lawyer's group or um a domestic violence shelter and see what kind of help they can help you with.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you don't always know when you're in a a DV situation what agreements or lack of agreements would trigger some sort of violent act.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: So, yes, to your point, Launi, it may not be worth a hundred an extra hundred dollars in child support and they acquiesce to that, but some other issue may be seemingly smaller on paper, but create a bigger trigger for the the um perpetrator.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: So I guess the bottom line is, you know, get the support, get the help, safety first before applying, you know, any of these suggestions.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: And um, you know.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: But if you're not a victim of domestic violence and you're the other party is not an abuser, I mean, you know, advocate for yourself.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, be assertive and ask for what you want and get what you want.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: Just I just worry about the people who who might be in the middle of something more dangerous.
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: But for the people who are not in danger, 100% learn to advocate for yourself.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: You don't have to be everybody's, you know, welcome, Matt, and you don't have to make everybody happy and apologize for everything and be a people people pleaser.
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: You get to get what you lawfully um have the right to.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the bottom line, victim or or not, or or sort of classic kind of co-parenting dynamics, assertiveness is not the same as confrontation.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: And I think people fuse those concepts that if I'm being assertive, I'm creating a conflict or I'm I'm being too confrontive.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: And that's not always the case, obviously.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being here again.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: As always, if you have any questions and we didn't address something that you're interested in, please feel free to reach out to us because we do want to create podcasts and uh social media videos and even uh courses in our split up app that specifically address the needs for anyone who is kind of looking for something that maybe we didn't cover.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: So thank you.