Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / A Conversation About Abuse in the Dance Industry

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A Conversation About Abuse in the Dance Industry · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: In today's episode of Making the Impact, we discuss an unfortunate reality in the competitive and studio dance industry: predatory behavior and abusive practices.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: We're joined by Keanu Yuchita, co-founder of NEMA, an advocate for raising awareness of sexual abuse in the dance industry, and Nicole Perry, intimacy coordinator and dance educator, who help highlight some of the ways dance parents and dance educators can create safer spaces for dancers.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, dance world, and welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Nealer.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey Courtney, how's it going today?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's going great.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: How are you?
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Doing great, just living the dream.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_04: And loving November and fall over here in New York City.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's beautiful, and we're getting closer and closer to competition season, which I can't wait.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_04: I know a lot of our uh we have a lot of new judges who have joined the roster over here at Impact Dance Adjudicators, and they are excited to go out this season.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_04: We have a lot of exciting competitions that we're working with in this upcoming season.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: So can't wait for that season to be here soon so soon.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and I'm super stoked that we have so many new judge friends.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: So hopefully you guys out there in uh podcast land will hear from some of them this season.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: We've got a ton more episodes coming your way uh in season five and new voices and new topics and all sorts of stuff.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: So thanks again, as always, for your support.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, and happy to address this important topic that we are covering today on making the impact that has been happening in our dance world for a I mean, for a very long time, but probably forever.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, for probably forever.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_04: But it's something that we knew we needed to tackle on the podcast, and we were just waiting for the right time to do it and the right guests to talk about it.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_04: So I think that we uh are gonna have a fantastic discussion today on making the impact about keeping our dance world safe.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_04: But before we jump in to this week's episode, we want to hear from our fabulous season five sponsors.
• 2:24
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• 2:48
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• 2:51
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• 2:54
  SPEAKER_04: Our season five premiere sponsor, Francisco Gella Danceworks, will be hosting a unique seven-day intensive this summer in Miami, Florida.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_04: Ballet Plus is an in-depth intensive leading students towards developing a strong technical foundation in ballet, modern, and jazz, with a highly refined and authentic artistic voice.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_04: Intermediate and advanced dancers ages 10 through 22 are able to attend this exciting week-long event with over 60 hours of dancing from an exceptional faculty, including Francisco Gella, Usha Marie Sorzano, and even me, Courtney Ortiz.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_04: Dancers will take a variety of different classes, like ballet, point, musical theater, modern dance with live percussion, Horton, contemporary, conditioning, Pilates, repertoire, and so much more.
• 3:39
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• 3:48
  SPEAKER_04: After teaching at the Ballet Plus Intensive last year for my first time, I was blown away by the amazing training these dancers were receiving throughout the week, and the high quality education from all of the instructors.
• 3:59
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• 4:04
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• 4:14
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• 4:21
  SPEAKER_04: All right, Dance World, let's jump into this very important chat that we're having on this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_04: As you heard in our intro, we are talking about keeping dance safe in our dance industry.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_04: And it's been a major conversation that's been buzzing around for the past few years.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I have seen a lot of change in our industry, but I always feel like there can be more progress made.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_04: And by having conversations like this on Making the Impact in our podcast, we are taking it one step further by just bringing more awareness and more light to what's happening in our industry.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_04: And we have two fantastic guests who are here joining us on the chat.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm so excited to learn from them and also speak with them on this important discussion.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_04: So the very first guest that I'm excited to welcome onto our podcast is a professional dancer and an advocate for raising awareness on sexual abuse in the dance industry.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_04: They're also the co-founder of NEMA, which is the nonprofit education and advocacy for the movement arts.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited to welcome Keanu Yuchita to the podcast.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome, Keanu.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, I'm so happy that when I reached out to you, you said yes to join us on this pod because I think that you have such passion for advocating in the industry and especially in the past few years.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_04: And I um am really excited to hear what you have to say about this and everything that you've been doing for our industry throughout the past three few years as well, has really been fantastic to watch.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you for everything that you're doing.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm excited to dive in.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_04: But before we do, if you wouldn't mind sharing with the world a little bit more about you, maybe where you grew up, where you trained, any career credits that you'd like to share, anything that you're currently working on, and anything about advocating in the industry.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, again, thank you so much for having me.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's very just exciting to be at a point in I think the timeline of this conversation over the past few years that it feels really right.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, a bit about me.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm from Canada, I'm from Otto originally.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of dance, I grew up as a big competition and convention kid that really defined my just everything in dance, and it meant everything to me.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so much of just my voice came from that world and kind of brought me into the professional world.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I started doing some work in Canada and also touring with a convention that I grew up with, and since then I've kind of branched out a bit to the US and have done some work there.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've kind of jumped in some like more commercial spheres, some you know, a bit more kind of company world.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, mainly it's I've been grateful for kind of these a lot of different experiences.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: A few years ago, I chose to me and some of my very close friends and people I I worked with chose to come forward about sexual abuse and in the industry, specifically in the convention dance industry.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, really so much to say about just what that conversation was and kind of what it would have meant for to for us.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I'm really grateful for kind of the conversation it started and I'm lucky that there's been an opening from the community and that I think people have been ready for these kinds of conversations on sexual abuse and what you know, so many obviously what we always say is, you know, you come forward and then you realize so many people have the same experience as you or have experienced what you've experienced in some shape or form, and that's fully what I experienced and got to kind of receive in response.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: So grateful for that conversation.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, a lot has happened if you've been, you know, kind of paying attention to just the ongoings over the past two years, and a lot of that I really see as as extremely positive.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: But now I I still dance, I do some stuff, doing some stuff in the commercial world now.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in a very transitional process in terms of my career.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I finished school and I'm still kind of figuring out exactly what what I'm gonna do next, but you know, that's okay.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta lean into that.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but that that's a little bit about me.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_04: I love it.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_04: And uh you are the co-founder of NEMA, is that true?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: Can you tell us a little bit more about that organization?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we're NEMA, nonprofit education and advocacy for the movement arts.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, basically our goal is to just provide support to the community in a lot of different ways, be it, you know, edu providing education for people who are wanting to build safer communities or create ties within the community or platforms that the community will be able to use to support one another.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: We've started about a year ago.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm so lucky to work with a lot of people from very different backgrounds who've really taught me a lot about what it means to be an advocate or what it means to really learn about a subject in an academic way.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So many different things.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, currently we've been in the process of working on a few different projects that are still in the works.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, it's been a ride for sure.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_04: Awesome.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: Great.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you for everything that you're doing for our dance world and our industry, and I look forward to chatting with you on this.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So grateful to be here.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_04: Yay! All right, and our next guest who is joining us is a certified intimacy coordinator.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure she's going to give you the definition of what that actually means very shortly once we dive into this chat.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_04: And she's also the founding member of Intimacy Direction in Dance, which is a program to help connect dance companies with quality and experienced intimacy directors.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: I'm excited to welcome Nicole Perry to this discussion.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome, Nicole.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited to be here with all of you.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yay! And shout out to Leslie for uh finding Nicole through so many different online platforms.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: And I know you've spoken a lot about this on different discussions, and I know you've run a lot of seminars and workshops as well, Nicole, on different um important topics like this in the industry.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: So thank you for all that you're doing to contribute.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: And we're um excited to have you here.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: So, same, same kind of deal.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: If you wouldn't mind just telling us a little bit more about you.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I actually started my performing life as a musician.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was a pianist, uh, and then I got into dance, but felt like dance was just where I wanted to be.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I kept going with piano, went to college originally for piano, and I was going to be a piano major and a dance minor, and kind of had almost the opposite experience of what we might expect this conversation to go, where actually I found the place where I belonged and I was valued and celebrated was the dance department.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And the place where I was experiencing gaslighting and abuse and all kinds of drama was the music department.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up I ended up becoming a double major because I'm like, I already put the work in, I can't just dump it, right?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I became a double major.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so just so I could spend more time in the dance department, just because I felt like those were my people and that's where I wanted to be, and that's the world I wanted to be in.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh super modern dancy, like roll on the ground, feel your organs slosh as you move, like kind of.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: It was totally my jam.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but then as I got out into the world, started working a lot in theater as a choreographer and also started acting.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was doing a lot of work uh in both theater and opera as a choreographer, doing some performing in theater, and also doing a lot of teaching.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was teaching at a private school, teaching dance and working on their shows.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was constantly going back and forth between this kind of performing and choreographing and teaching life.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I moved to Florida about a decade ago and again was balancing all of those things.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then in 2018, started being asked, particularly by students, about like choreographing scenes that were intimate, whether it was kissing or cuddling or whatever, that they would have to do in productions.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh, I don't really have the like the skills around this, but there has to be some skills, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't send anyone up on stage being like, I don't know, just figure it out, unless improvisation is supposed to be what you're doing.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly in theater, we're not asking them to improvise unless you're in an improvised show.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't ask them to draw on their personal experience.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're not like, I hope you had a sword fight before, blah blah blah off you go.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't, we don't do that.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yet, so often we're like, I don't know, just kiss.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: And we don't really give them direction.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, there has to be.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I am a super movement nerd.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I love the analysis.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also a certified Labon Bartani of movement analysis analyst.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I love the theory of movement.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, there has to be a way to do this.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started looking and discovered intimacy direction and just dove in and since then have been doing intimacy direction and intimacy coordination and theater and film and dance and opera.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm a professor of dance.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I was at the University of Miami, I'm now at Florida Atlantic University.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So still continuing to juggle that choreographing, performing, art making life with my teaching life and put those pieces together.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: That's where I'm at.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_04: I'm curious then to know is an intimacy director or coordinator, is that like a newer thing in the theater world?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: Because I feel like that I have only experienced it like on one contract of mine in my professional career.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's still pretty new.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: The first credited person as an intimacy director was Tanya Cena at the Stratford Shakespeare Festival in Toronto area uh in 2017.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the first credited intimacy coordinator was Alicia Rhodas on HBO's The Deuce in 2018.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's fresh.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're still, yeah, we're still like in that five-year range.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so the credits are it's really, it's really a new field that's also really growing.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: Whenever I work on a new project, I ask the performers, like, have you worked with an intimacy director before?
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer still five years later, quite often, is no.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm on a project right now with eight actors.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And of those eight actors, one of them has worked with one before, one of them's worked with one as a director, but not as an actor, and the other folks haven't.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: So it's still very, very new.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And in terms of dance, it's even newer.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: Dance is sadly and perhaps unsurprisingly behind the curve in utilizing the role.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_04: I could see that for sure.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: Wow.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm so excited to learn on this chat.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: This is awesome.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_04: Well, thank you so much uh for you both to being here.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_04: And let's jump in.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_04: Leslie, you ready?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let's go.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, so I will echo Courtney.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both for being here.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you for sharing your knowledge with us.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so, first, I would love to hear from Nicole a little bit about power dynamics, because in in every sort of place we go, there's a power dynamic.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody's in charge, right?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: Somebody is the subordinate, somebody's a student, somebody's a teacher.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: That happens, you know, from age tiny, tiny to adult.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: And in dance studios and in dance conventions and in dance workshops and any any area where we're using a teacher and a student, there's a power imbalance and a power dynamic that is has somebody in charge and somebody not, which can also create perhaps an unsafe space depending on who is in charge.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Can you speak a little bit to that and how that kind of manifests in these environments that we put our kids in?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I teach whole two-hour workshops called power dynamics in the rehearsal room.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna try not to give you one of those right now.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know that is not the time that we have, uh, but I could talk about it forever.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of my favorite things.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Power dynamics exist.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: They are just like the water that we swim in, and we take them kind of for granted that like this is just the way it is.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's a teacher and a student, there's a choreographer and a dancer.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And somehow, I mean, I suspect it has a lot to do with like capitalism.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's a different conversation.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: We have this idea that like teacher is more valuable than student, and choreographer or director is more valuable than actor dancer, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that the person who has more expertise, expert power, has that power over the person who's doing some learning or doing some gaming this piece to go then put it out on the stage.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, they have to do everything that that person is telling them to do.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: This idea of like power over somebody has it and somebody doesn't.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: If I have it, I want to keep it and you can't have it if I have it and I don't want you to take it from me.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so I will fight you to the death if I think that you threaten my power.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this sets up this conflict.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes conflict can be really creative, like right, friction creates heat, and sometimes that's great, and sometimes that is distractive.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it sets up this competition where we see the person as other.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, even if I know that my teacher wants me to do well, they're other than me, and we're not really on the same side of things.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Even if I know the choreographer wants me to do their piece well, they're other than me.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And this idea of someone being over me, because we're humans, just tends to make us go, I don't really like it.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I don't really like it.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have some resistance.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Some people really love being told what to do, and some people are have some resistance.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Mary Parker Fullet, my BFF, I brought props.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Mary Parker Follett, she has this idea that like power over is not really how things should be working.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: We want to have power with or collaboration, which I think is what a lot of creative people really do want to have or think that they have.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: But in that idea, like I, as the teacher, have to look at the students and go, I need these students to be students, which means I need them to show up to learn.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: I need them to be in their expert power about their bodies and what's working for them and what's not, because I'm only a teacher because students exist.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're both here to do this work, then I need them.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I, as a choreographer, have to be like, I need dancers to do this piece if I want to make the art.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And we're all here to do this work, and nobody's more important or more valuable in the doing of the work.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: We just all have different roles and we have some certain responsibilities in those roles.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And my responsibility as the choreographer is to make sure that I'm teaching things clearly and well and in a timely fashion.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And your responsibility as the dancer is to approximate them as best as you can because that's your job.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not because you owe the choreographer anything, not because you're afraid for your next job if you don't, because we're all here to do this work and we value each other's input to the work.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: And that's my ideal power dynamic of power with where we really collaborate and share.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Keanu, do you feel like the power with dynamic in your experience having been a convention kid and now being an adult looking back?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Is that what you experienced, or or were you mainly experiencing the power over?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would say definitely the latter.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it would be important to mention that I think there are a lot, tons of examples of really the other type of power in tons of relationships in all these different parts of the dance world where there really is like a nice cooperation between the person who's teaching and genuine respect.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I've had those types of people who really have looked out for me and where there's just been a level of, you know, not feeling like the dynamic is even there, like not having to even question it because you feel like there's kind of inherent respect.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think exactly what exactly what Nicole is saying is just what's embedded in the system.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like by default, that's what's there, and unless you're like aware of it, it's going to have power over, unless you're willing to do something about it.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, that's what you just see in so many spaces is that there isn't that understanding.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just an idea that came up for me is like, and I don't know, I'm curious how that would fit into what you said, Nicole, but also my experience is like in thinking about the problem is the level of like access the teachers able to give to like their knowledge and their resources is such a big factor as to why there's such the dynamic is so big, especially you think of like dance studios, obviously, even on a local level, like that expert still has something to offer that you may not be able to get elsewhere.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: But then when you talk about the convention world, what it was for me, once a year you get to see these the biggest people in your industry who you you know you've seen dancers grow up and be granted that those opportunities and then have become those people who you admire so much.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: But to really only have access to those people once a year and or you know, sparingly if they come to your you're lucky enough for them to like come to your studio or have these opportunities, like that there's just so much power to me in like that the ability to give you that.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: And well, and the stakes are really high in that scenario for the for the student.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because you you know, you you see them as this sort of god-like figure of you can give me all these opportunities, and you know, so that's that is such an interesting uh point.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sorry.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like people often ask, like, oh, why is it so pervasive, specifically in like sports and dance?
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just that it means everything to the person, to the young learner when they're at that age.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: When someone first learns, like, I love to dance, it really means so much to them.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: That someone who can really like allow them to pursue their craft and make it further is is going to like you know have so much of that power.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_04: The power dynamic is is so real.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_04: Even obviously when we're young and looking up to like you like you said, Keanu, some of the teachers that we idolized and the people that we see on TV and then you know getting getting to work with them or getting to be in a room with them, like not even whatever it may be.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: And you're looking to make connections and and hope that it leads you to something.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: But I am like the the entire time while y'all were talking, I was just, especially Nicole, like it was almost like a little triggering for me when I was listening.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_04: No, and not in a bad way, but like just like I was just like reliving, like, oh my god, this sounds exactly like my time on finding Neverland National Tour because I exactly lived like the power dynamic of the choreographer.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_04: Y'all can go look up and see who that was.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_04: And it was just like that was like one of my first real, I mean, I've experienced other things which I didn't really throughout my profession.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm talking my actual adult professional career working as a working act uh dancer, but that one in particular, it really kind of showed me that what this industry is really like in a very different way.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: And it wasn't what I expected, especially when it came to like my very first equity Broadway show.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, that's like what the what you look for.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_04: That's your goal.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_04: That's like, you know, as a professional dancer, your goal, you have these goals and you finally reach it, and then there's just this thing that come almost ruins the experience over a power trip, over uh like a toxic workplace.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_04: And even as an adult, it was hard for me to navigate.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: So I can only imagine if if children are in similar situations growing up and experiencing that, how that is is affecting them then.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: And then also how that's going to translate into their adult life as well is probably gonna be um extremely hard to figure out life because life is tough.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's really important that you bring that up because like as children, there's like that double decker power dynamic, right?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like teacher student, I assume the teacher knows more than me, or the choreographer can give me some opportunities or grant me this access to this world.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: But then I also have just the adult childness of it.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in our society, like children are not really valued, they are dismissed, they are sit down, shut up, be quiet, be over there, be entertaining, at least if you're gonna be here, right?
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: We children are not valued as full people.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, this person will eventually be a person, but right now they're a child.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: They're a full person, they're a full person with their own ideas and their body and their autonomy, right?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're experiencing all of that all the time.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this double decker power dynamic.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just wild to think that their little selves have to process that and they can't process that, right?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like that is just how they are learning that life is.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's up to the adults to be able to look and go.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is a power dynamic situation that I can use to create opportunities for the students and dancers in my space to step into their power and practice their power that they have over their bodies, over their choices.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or this is an opportunity for me to just live in my power and do what I want.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 25:36
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• 25:47
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• 26:02
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• 26:15
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• 26:21
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• 26:26
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• 26:35
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• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Hope to see you in Miami this summer.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we talk a lot on this podcast about the ego and the ego of teachers and the ego of choreographers, and you know, why it's very important sometimes to drop that ego because it's not about you anymore.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's about the student, it's about the learner, it's about the process.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think we're we we're basically saying this, but I'm gonna say what it is is that the environment of a dance studio and a dance convention, because A, there's a power dynamic, and B, the Nicole's uh double decker pint uh power dynamic picture there because they're children involved.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: This scenario, this whole community, this whole situation we've put ourselves in is ripe for exploitation because of its two different levels of power, but also the idealization or the idolization, like Yano was saying, of these people that we see once a year.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a recipe for potential really bad stuff.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's but so we know it, we know it happens, we know it has happened.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: What are the red flags, I think, to hear from both of you that a studio or a studio owner, a teacher, a parent could look out for in environments like this?
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we're going to a convention.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: What are some what are some things that I need to be aware of that are gonna be a a tip for me to say, ooh, I don't know if this is a safe space?
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything you guys can can share with us?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of things, but I mean, one that comes to mind is often you have this impression that if there's some sort of predatory behavior going on, like it's going to be I think we just have a certain picture of what that looks like sometimes and like where we should look for it, and that there's like specific, there's always going to be certain things.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's the same when you just talk about child sexual abuse in general, like the expectations that you have, but I think it's important to know, especially in the dance world, like a lot of that you can really see on the dance floor and in the dance classes, how things are taught, what the interactions are between the teachers and their students.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think like definitely kind of the way that in general, just like dancing that is more infused with sexuality is approached, is gonna say a lot about just like what kind of respect there is for people's sexual development.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very, very nuanced conversation about, and I don't have all the answers about like in what ways should we allow, especially teenagers, to kind of start thinking about their sexuality or you know what it means to kind of like have a sexual identity because I do believe that teenagers that's obviously a part of puberty as you explore that, and it's not completely wrong for that to be expressed through dance.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I think it totally can be a vehicle for people to really learn who they are, but it's a very nuanced conversation.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I definitely think that there does need to be some boundaries, and like one of them is especially when you have choreography that's having people Leslie Scott, who's a co-founder of NEMA, so much of this I'm sharing so much of the lessons that she's taught me, but so much of it is gonna come from the way that teachers ask students to like sexual to show a certain type of sexuality that's performed and that isn't for themselves, also, that's for someone else.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you see that in so many classes where it's really like you are selling it, you are giving it, you you have to give it to someone, and within that is so many just like assumptions about sex in general that's like embedded into how we see people and how what really objectifying people.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just like a a bit of a more kind of subtle cultural thing that plays into a larger culture of how these things happen.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it would be important to mention maybe some more specific details.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I don't know if Nicole anything.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really appreciate what you said about like assumptions.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: And we also have an assumption when you're in a dance space, quite often that if you're there to take class, you're also there to be touched by the teacher, by the choreographer, by whatever.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: And those are separate events, right, that should be addressed that way.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that to me is always a flag that like just because you're in the room, you therefore are available.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, yeah.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And two other things that I talk about when I do boundary workshops is a boundary crosser sometimes does it in sneaky ways, right?
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they just grab you and you're like, what the heck?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but sometimes they do it really sneakily.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And one is like when it's conditional, it's like they only want to do this, or like there's only one option.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: You can only do it this way, my way, my vision.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: This is the thing, right?
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: So your boundary is null and void because it doesn't fit their one idea.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I thought we were creative people in this room.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Creative people have more than one idea, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So like that doesn't work for me.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then also when like they're consistently bumping up against a boundary that you've stated of like, you know, I don't want to be lifted, but they keep asking you every class if you want to be lifted.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I'll tell you if I've changed my mind, right?
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need to ask me every time.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a subtle pressure of telling you that your boundary's not not valid and that you shouldn't have it.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those ideas of like assumptions, there's only one way to do it and it's not yours, and this pressuring to change a boundary are some some sneaky red flags.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And like also if your teacher or your choreographer ever says like that you owe them anything.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: You paid your money by I just happen to think of something else like that, maybe on a more concrete level.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think a big thing that happens at conventions often or that is kind of the the seed for like this kind of behavior is just obviously communication that happens in between like a teacher and a student that isn't like being seen by anyone or that is in a social media account or something.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like my opinion, I think I'm glad, I think a lot of competitions and conventions have started to do this.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the concept that you in no circumstance should you be privately messaging a minor student who's at your convention, involve a teacher, have someone in in that conversation.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's often a big sign is just when when there's a a level of closeness or of a relationship that's going on that isn't m being monitored by a parent or a student.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, another one maybe also be just like being in a physical space, you know, being like, oh, such and such person invited me to go do something in some hotel room or wow, because I say it and it sounds so absurd, but it actually does.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: This stuff does happen.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think it happens often with with that the age disc not even discrepancy, but the the closeness and age of like you've got your 16, 17-year-old assistant at a convention who's traveling, and then the teachers may be 23, 24.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Some of these teachers at conventions aren't they're not 38, they're not 50, they're in their 20s, so like that age difference isn't so big that they don't almost feel like peers, but that is still too much of a power imbalance, and there's this age factor too.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and a minor.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think still a child.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, fully.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: But uh yeah, I think it comes back to what Nicole is saying that it's like it's just there's something with like the convention, even if you talk because there's situations where like, you know, there's a teacher and then their assistant is like two years younger and they're like 20 or 22.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's a bit of a more kind of nuanced, but like in the end, I think it comes back to the roles, like the fact that look, the choreographer exerts a certain amount of power and like it's indifferent of age.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, you know, when we came forward about our experience of sexual abuse, there were some people who were interested in kind of talking to us, and I remember that like their interest actually like changed once they because I guess they hadn't properly understood what like what our allegations were and stuff, but when they understood that more or like a a majority of us actually were not underage when we had some of our experiences, they were like no longer interested in the story.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And like I think we need to get rid of this idea that like, you know, really thinking about age in this like numerical way because we know obviously all the age consent, it's there for like there's obviously a reason why that's there.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: And but the reality is there's so many different levels of maturity, and it comes down to the the positions that people are in and like what the the level of power and influence they have, which yeah, I think we don't we still need people to understand that dynamic kind of in our society, but yeah, I think it might be helpful to just like define a power dynamic because also one of those things that we're like power dynamics, thanks a word, yeah.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the definition that I use is anything that impacts a performer's ability to speak, choose, behave in space.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if they are speaking or choosing or behaving in a space because they want you to be pleased with them, you have a power dynamic.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: Anything that impacts a performer's ability to speak, choose, or behave totally under their own volition is a power dynamic.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if if we are influencing them, not always even purposefully or uh with awareness that we have that influence, right?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_01: But they're making choices based on the fact that they are being influenced.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_04: That's a really great point.
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm really glad that you you shared that definition for everyone.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I do think uh some of the things that you said, Keanu, even when it comes to social media, I mean that's a huge discussion when when it comes to this type of chat, because that is a new part of this world.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure that's you know what we're talking about in like sexual misconduct and and grooming and things were probably happening way before social media came about in this world, in the dance world, in the convention world, whatever.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_04: But now we're adding this other layer of being able to directly communicate with our students and use that power dynamic even more than when you're just in that class for an hour.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_04: And k and k kids can follow you and watch your every move and see what you're doing every hour of the day if you if you choose to post it on your story publicly.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I agree that like there shouldn't be any type of conversations being had on social media from teacher to student, student to teacher, like unless it was thank you for class, and that is it.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like, truly that is it.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_04: Because if a teacher is reaching out to your student directly, that's a red flag.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know what what's what's the intention there.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, great.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, you were so awesome in class today.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like, you could have I mean, did you really have to?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I don't know.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: They know they were great, like, you know, just like you know, my thing too is like if you really felt that strongly, go comment on their latest dance post.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like something that's public, something that people can see.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: I know some people think you know, there shouldn't be follows, but I think a realistic happy medium is just like the interactions, there can be interactions, just like let them be public, let them be in a space where everyone can see.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're probably not gonna message if if you had bad intentions, you probably wouldn't met message them on the same way as you would as you would in a in a comment that everyone could see.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, totally.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_04: But I can see how that is probably tough for kids to understand when oh my god, the teacher from the convention just messaged me on Instagram.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, and they're showing all their friends, and oh my god, I'm not gonna tell them, I'm not gonna tell anybody, okay?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I can just already see it playing out because that's how teenagers are.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so it's it's I can I could I mean I know that's how I was when I was young, and we didn't even have social media.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_04: So like I can't imagine what that's like now.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure it's extremely hard for young dancers to to wrap their head around and and really see those red flags as as actual red flags and and know maybe I shouldn't continue this conversation.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe take the conversation, loop somebody in.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's one of those things where you can, like Nicole was talking about, like to kind of take your power, like here here's a thing I can do.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's not necessarily a boundary.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what the terminology would be.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: But like if you as a student are feeling uncomfortable, what's the next thing you do?
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna loop somebody in that you trust because maybe that's gonna maybe that's gonna be the fix.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's gonna be the thing that that changes the equation.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_04: And another thing that you mentioned, uh, Keanu, that I thought was really interesting was just like kind of talking about the like the sexualization of movement in choreography.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_04: I I do think that that is obviously a giant issue in our industry in general.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I do think it actually, you know, obviously when we as artists and choreographers and and uh dance teachers, we watch what's happening in in the biz, we see things on stage at an at a show, we see what's on on TV, in this television show, at this concert, whatever.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_04: And we're influenced by that, and that gives us, you know, artistic fuel.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, majority of the time, those are always adults in those in those working environments and not children.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_04: And then when convention teachers sometimes might be used to only teaching adults, and then they're coming into a space that is now heavily and predominant all of the kids that's kids.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_04: Let's be real, it's 18 and under usually.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_04: How do we adjust the way we move and the choices that we're making within our choreography to not make it too sexualized within it?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_04: When that might be what we can do with adults, but we also probably need an intimacy coordinator, also.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: Exactly, you know?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it I do, I do see that as a big issue in our industry.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: And I I don't love it.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_04: And it it concerns me a bit because then if people see it happening at convention, then the rest of again, the power dynamic.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's a the primary part of this conversation, I feel, because it really just is ingrained in this industry so much where the studios and the teachers that are attending the conventions are looking at these teachers as, oh my gosh, you're above me.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_04: Oh my gosh, you know so much.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_04: Look at your career, look at what you've done.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: You're a convention teacher.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_04: If you're doing this, then this must be what I need to do at my studio.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_04: So now I'm gonna teach sexualized movement to the kids at the studio when we need to just do what we know is right.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: And if we feel like that some of these moves that might be quote unquote trendy right now or quote unquote win at competition, which like what is going on?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_04: Like why do they win?
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_04: But again, like it just is it's just this huge circle of I saw it here, I'm gonna do this, this is what I need to do to win because it's learning and growing from each other.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_04: But at the same time, is that the right way that we should be creating movement for children?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't necessarily think so.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I do think that that's something to be on the lookout for when it comes to which events you choose to go to, which teachers you choose to bring in, who's doing your guest choreography.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_04: Like, do you like the the way that they are moving and teaching children?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_04: Because again, once you move to LA and you can go into those classes, great, go to those classes and live your life.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_04: But until then, you're still a kid, and we have to be making sure the environment that we're creating and even the movement that we're giving is appropriate.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think if if we're talking about it, totally, totally re agree with everything you said.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think if to maybe a parent is maybe thinking about what how to contextualize that, if you know, they see because that must happen so much, or it does happen so much where parents, you know, bring their kid to the convention.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, they're gonna take all the classes, they see the one, the one class that's like, ugh, and then you know, they're like, ugh, I don't like like that, but I'm also happy my kid is is here and like getting this amazing.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's still an amazing experience overall, you know.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like one really good way would just to at least, you know, start the to what just to ha have a conversation about it, to really like kind of engage in like, well, what like do you understand the context in which this is being taught?
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like everything you just said, Courtney, like this is one a movement style that is more for adults and that is is more like adult-oriented, but kind of like it's obviously a very personal conversation, but I think so much, unfortunately, when so much of this movement kind of teaches there's sort of this idea that like that's what sexuality should be.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like if I go into a class and I teach you certain things, like that's how you should be thinking about your experience.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like I think it's just important for students to know that that's not it, you know, like it's a style and that shouldn't be necessarily be defining like how you I guess like think about your your sexuality more broadly.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously these kinds of conversations really gonna depend on where you're what kind of relationship you may have with your child and kind of where they're at and or what kind of how they're feeling.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I just think that context could can be really valuable of like.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, th this is a specific kind of thing and as long as you know what that is, then like then so be it.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: I do want to talk a tiny bit more about boundaries and how that works in a studio setting.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_04: We've talked a lot about like convention and I think that the studio is another place we needed to discuss.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's, you know, a convention is not necessarily an intimate place because it's just there's so many people and it's a million, and you're there once, and maybe you're never gonna see these people again.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: But at the studio, you're there every week.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: You're with maybe the same teacher every week for several years.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: Where you know, it's you become a family, but even within families, and that's a whole nother podcast, people need some boundaries.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: And but then, you know, you can only you as a person, as a human being, can only you can set your boundary, but then what happens when the person doesn't accept your boundary?
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that dynamic can be, you know, messy if not everybody is on board.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: And also, you know, I think I would love for you to speak a little bit about this too.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you mentioned it earlier, Nicole, that we're we're in a studio.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: My job as a dance teacher is to teach you dance steps and teach you choreography.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I need, I need you to be on board.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: And even if we're collaborating, I still need you to be on board because if you are just gonna sit on the sidelines because you don't feel good today, well, then we can't accomplish the goal that we've set for ourselves, which is let's do a dance for recital or whatever it is.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: So, how how do we create these spaces where it is, it's it's equitable and there's boundaries and we feel safe and we feel good and we feel creative and happy and we don't feel threatened or nervous or scared or like somebody doesn't trust me and I don't trust them.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's always a balance too, because like if we were just like, okay, students, do whatever you want, right?
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like one, they wouldn't really trust us because that's not their experience in school or in the dance studio at all.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like they don't ever get to just do whatever they want.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: So they're like, what's this person's game?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we were just like, do whatever, there has to be some structure just to build that trust of like this person knows what they're doing.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: I can explore with them, I can listen to what they have to say.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's part of it.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's also, you know, I teach a lot of teachers in my workshops.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, there is often a fear that, like, well, if I tell the students that they can have boundaries, then they won't do anything.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, really?
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's not my experience of your students that are here every night for four hours a night.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like they won't do anything.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is that really what you think is gonna happen?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, that's not who these kids are, right?
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, they're going to say, I'm not interested in doing that thing.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that'll be hard to hear, but we should we should be listening to that.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's really important to help, particularly young people, frame what's the difference between having a boundary and feeling uncomfortable?
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because those are different things.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as dancers, we're asked all the time to do things that are uncomfortable.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like doing a split is not that comfortable for most folks.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: Balancing on one leg is not that comfortable for most folks.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: We do things all the time that are uncomfortable.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: So then the question is like, is this resistance because this is a new thing and you just need some time to learn and you or you need some assistance, or it feels scary for a need that could be met?
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you need a spotter?
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do you need a mat?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a way that I could meet a need for you that helps you do this thing?
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: Then that's a space of like learning and risk taking.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm trying to meet students' needs.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Jerry Brown says, meet students where they are in service of the work, right?
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm trying to meet you where you are to get the work done.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to meet you where you are so you like me, and I'm not making you do what I say because I said it.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to meet you where you are so we can get the work done.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: And if that means that we need to pull out a mat or then maybe that's what we do, right?
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if you tell me there's no world in which you feel even like attempting this thing, then that's a boundary and I should respect that and be the creative person that I've been hired to be as the choreographer and teacher and find a way around that.
• 48:29
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• 48:33
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• 48:54
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• 48:59
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• 49:06
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• 49:10
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• 49:14
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• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, your piece is not gonna save the world.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: If you if you don't have the lift, it's not gonna you're it's gonna be fine.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: But also, like you said, be creative.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is what we're here to do.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: Find another way.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you're making someone do something they don't want to be doing or they don't feel safe doing, like that's gonna come through too.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: And your piece is not gonna be what you thought it was gonna be anyway.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: So like yeah, I think we we all need to get really comfortable in talking around like this spectrum of attempts, and like boundary is at one end of the spectrum, and there's just so much space in there before, where as teachers, we need to be really curious about if there if there are needs that we can meet, and as students and as learners, we need to get just a little better, and our teachers need to provide us with the language and the experiences to know I feel unsafe.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is a boundary, and I feel uncomfortable.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if there's something that could make me feel like trying.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the good, the the sort of piece of this that plays into, you know, the kids being at a bigger event.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_02: So if they're learning in their dance studio that they have the agency to be able to say, no, Miss Nicole, I don't feel safe doing that, they're gonna be able to have the agency to say, no, Mr.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: Whoever you are at this dance convention that I've never met before.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Don't, please don't touch me like that.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: And that will also play into hopefully their personal life, where if they're learning it somewhere that they have the ability to say, no, thank you, this is not what I want, that's gonna happen.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, it happens in another scenario.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: If they're ever in a scenario where they're put in an uncomfortable position with an adult, a power, you know, dynamic figure who's making them uncomfortable and not uncomfortable in the physical, the split hurts way, but uncomfortable in the I don't feel safe here way.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: And even if they don't, because of the power dynamic of someone famous, someone impressive, right?
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_01: Then they still have that knowledge of like, I don't think that was and then maybe maybe they can't say it in the moment, but maybe they can come to someone afterwards and be like, I'm just feeling weird about this thing that happened.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_04: Another thing I want to briefly chat about and learn about is just like grooming in the industry because I feel like that kind of goes a little hint.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, definitely can go in any part of the industry, whether we're talking about like convention stars grooming their students or even in a studio, like you said, like Leslie, the teacher you see every week for year and year and year.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_04: And the and kids understanding what's happening and also parents being aware of what like I I can sense what's going on here.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_04: I think a lot of times parents don't even see it.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_04: It's right under their nose, and they don't even really see that this is what's going on, and the kids are or the kids just never mention anything because they're afraid, or they were told not to, or whatever may be happening.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel like especially in the past ten years, and I'm sure prior to, but there have been a lot of different things coming to light uh as far as teachers working in studio settings for years and things coming out about them and many, many people getting going to jail for it.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure you can look up and see some of these articles and things, but anything on y'all's end that you can share that can be some, you know, things things to be looking out for when it comes to that within m potentially a studio setting more so.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, maybe just to like you know, give anyone an idea of grooming, maybe you haven't heard of it.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's at least the way like I tend to define it is just a variety of different tactics and acts that someone may do to gain access to someone, to someone that's being targeted.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_00: Usually almost exclusively someone who's less, you know, has less power th than them, someone they have power over, to eventually exploit them or have a sexual relation with them in some way.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, those tactics can obviously vary so much.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say like often what happens in studio settings is kind of like you're saying Leslie, it is a lot more intimate.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so you do have real relationships that develop in between studio owners and teachers and their students, which me, you know, so many of them are really, really healthy and important to have, but that's where it can get really difficult because so many people can take advantage of that.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think one often what you'll find is that could be in tons of different ways, but a groom will just develop a strong bond with the person they're they're targeting, and that can be a bond that's actually completely, you know, may seem benign or that seem to be completely genuine, a friendship.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I think a few things that maybe you could look out for in particular is just like a a unique treatment of the person that's being targeted.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, obviously teachers will have a certain relationship with all their students, but you'll see certain patterns or certain things that they they'll do with that student that other people don't do.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you know, spent like we talked about, like spending any time privately with that student without supervision is a huge red flag, sending messages, sometimes giving gifts or small like gestures of like affection to that person can be a sign.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, one could also be just like exposing the if we're talking about minors, but grooming can happen with adults or or minors, but in the context of a studio, really exposing that the child to adult subjects, like things that that person may not know about, like talking to them about drugs or like your relationships that are completely too mature for that, you know, child to understand, or sexual things, in order to maybe make that person feel like they know more, or that like you're giving them something that other people don't, or letting them into something that's like cool or that they don't have in in their lives.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's also negative things like really kind of targeting their vulnerabilities or insecurities.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes teachers will like, you know, really pick on someone, and then the only way they'll validate them is in a sexual way.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it works because it's you've really brought that person to such a low level that they're going to accept whatever whatever kind of affection you validation that you have to give them.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, those are just some ideas.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for sharing those the I mean I think it's it's so it's nuanced, like you said.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you as a student want that, you want some special attention because how great is that that my teacher cares about me and is looking at me and thinks there's something there, but then it crosses a line at some point.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's that's a really valid um thing to look out for.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's hard because in so many of these relationships that are great, you may see some of these things and they're not like But it's the intent behind it that you know it's like if if the intent is pure, then you shouldn't feel the ick, you know?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: Also, what's important to mention too is that often if you're and and from the parent's point of view, like often the the person who may be grooming will really be careful about what their relationship is with respect to you, how they make you feel.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that complicates things because you may you may love that person.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: They may be the person who like you know really has gotten on your good side, but really it's a it's a front for you know what what they're trying to carry out.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really difficult though, um, you know, from the perspective of I mean anyone involved, but I think just like kind of having a having an intuition about the ways it can come up is well could help.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the also this like going back to like in service of the work thing, like are we interacting about the the purpose that we're here, whether it's dance class or the convention class or the piece that we're creating, like is our interaction mainly based around that?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that of course can get too transactional if we take that too far, right?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to only value a student because they are a student, I want to value them because they are a few full human.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: But when they're in this space, we're here to do this work of learning, teaching, whatever.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think does the interaction fit the purpose of like why we're here?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can it fall within that?
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then also this idea that Keanu brought up about like validation and rewards and power dynamic that we didn't talk about because we didn't even look at like academic places, it's grades, like Jesus.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: We put grades on top of things, and then we've got all kinds of extra stuff.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I always say like a reward's only a reward.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like a reward's only a reward one time.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: After that, it's a coercive technique because you're always going to get you want to get the sticker, you want to get the cookie, you want to get the trophy, you want to get the grade.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so rewards only a reward one time, and then it becomes coercion, whether it's in your own heart of like, I want the trophy, or it's someone being like, Well, you're not gonna get that.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: You're you know you're capable of that, and you're not gonna get it now if you don't do this thing, or I can make sure that you get this thing if you do this thing that I say.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so rewards and validation can so quickly become a manipulative tool because of because we want them, because we value them.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's that literally just made my brain explode.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Me too.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_02: Because I never looked at it that way.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right, me neither.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that is a complete can we have another podcast about that?
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's all it's like we we live in this industry.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like we make our, at least Courtney and I make our living in the competitive industry.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, and even in the audition world of like, I want the job.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: I have to perform in order to get the job, and it's competitive because you're gonna get it if I don't get it.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then everyone else, if this industry trains us to see everyone as our competition instead of our potential collaborators.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so then it's also no wonder that we can have these power dynamics that disrupt collaboration because it's been ingrained in us since we were a mini that everybody else is my competition.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do it all my own.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_01: I can only trust this person that wants me to get the thing.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Alfie Cohn wrote an amazing book called Punish by Rewards, and it's mainly about like academic grading.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: But the first time I read it and I read it like on the regular as a teacher, just to I don't do traditional grading, I do ungrading in in my classes because of the paradigmics of grading.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I I revisit it regularly, but like the first time I read it, there's a quote somewhere in it that I'm not gonna remember it right now, but about like when you see everyone as your competition, you live in a perpetual state of insecurity.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh hello, hello, dance.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_05: Oh my god.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it really flipped not only how I was like looking at grading, but also just like how I was looking at all of these kind of ranking systems, whether it's the trophies or getting the role that we live in as artists.
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: They encourage a view of others as rivals rather than potential collaborators.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: What's more, they lead people to see their own worth in terms of whether they have beaten everyone else, a recipe for perpetual insecurity.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's true.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: That is true.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: So true.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: We live that.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I'm gonna need to read that book.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_04: We'll link it in the show notes.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we sure will.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's available on perfect.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_02: Guys, this was such a wonderful conversation that I hope was enlightening for our friends out there in the dance world who may not have heard some of these thoughts or you know, stories.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm just I'm again grateful for your time and and your energy and all the good things you're both doing for the industry.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sad it's over.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_04: It goes by so fast.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_04: I know.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_04: And yes, we're we're really glad to to be having these types of conversations to continue to make progress.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_04: And I know that we didn't really have a chance to talk about like what can our industry do better?
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_04: What are the things that our industry can continue to do?
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I we hinted at it towards the beginning that there has been change in the industry and it's happening slowly, and that's great.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_04: And the different conventions are implementing certain safety precautions to uh certifications, different things are happening.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_04: There have been conversations in progress, which is awesome.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, we have looked back on the time when I was growing up and and when we were younger and things like none of that ever would exist.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_04: Even the part of, like you mentioned, Nicole, like when you go into a classroom and you are you're agreeing to be touched and manipulated to gain corrections.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like that is um that's pretty much a thing of the needs to be a thing of the past uh at this point.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_04: And there have been many times where I've been in places where teachers have come up and say, Is it okay if I touch your arm and ask for your permission before they just grab your arm and you know, you know, manipulate you?
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I do think I have been seeing progress in in the industry as a whole, and I think that's wonderful.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_04: So that could be a way to help lead us out in this episode.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_04: I think would be a great final thought would be what else can we do in this industry for our dance world, for dance conventions, for dance studios, for dance competitions, for professional dance careers in any avenue, just to lead us out with our two spectacular guests, Keanu and Nicole.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for joining us.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_04: So let's jump into final thoughts.
• 1:03:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm gonna go with maybe a wild one, an edgy one, to one that we might get letters about.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what to do.
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_05: Yes.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_01: I challenge the teachers and the choreographers, and you heard me self-correct this earlier because I'm still working on it, to stop using the word my about dancers and students, to stop possessing them and to be like, there are dancers in this class that I'm facilitating, there are dancers in this piece that we're creating together, they do not belong to me in this moment or at any other time.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: They are their own full autonomous humans, and if just that elimination of the word can start to shift how we think of people as fully powerful autonomous people and as just not not only ours, not only our idea.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: They have influences and other people in their lives that are also valuable.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: So just shifting that word, try that out.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I noticed that before, and I was I was trying to, yeah, it's so when I see you put into words and it makes so much sense.
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why would you need to have for them to be yours?
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, on what I'd say is like I I'm really optimistic about, I think it's important to state about you know where the industry is going.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really, really feel like people are willing to have these conversations and are open to them and want to make changes, and people are starting to really use their influence and their circles to really make real changes, and a lot of that, you know, you don't always see it.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: You may not necessarily see it come up on Instagram.
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's kind of how I feel too about my own advocacy in general.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like so many of these conversations are being had, and you may not see them, but they are being had, and I I think that's definitely happening.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think the biggest one of the biggest things I think is just really being willing to have that conversation even more and kind of lowering the the stakes of that conversation.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I think it's a very charged, especially when you talk about sexual abuse, it's very charged topic and brings up a lot of feelings.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I kind of think of it a bit like when you talk about when you're in a building and then you see like the fire procedures and like what happens, what do we do when there's a hurricane or even an active shooter or something?
• 1:05:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like those are obviously all if they were to happen, those are very horrible things and and you know, traumatic.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_00: But the reality is the most important work is just like, okay, how what are we gonna do to make sure this doesn't happen?
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so so many of these conversations can already be had in between parents and teachers of like, okay, you know, like what are the logistics of like if a choreographer comes, how can we just make sure that look, I would really rather that, you know, there not be direct or my child not have a private with the teacher alone at the studio at this time.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many things that you can kind of implement in your spaces without having to it to be this like really uncomfortable thing, as long as you just all agree that like look, we're here to be safe and so that everyone feels, you know, is comfortable.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so I yeah, I just hope that maybe that just becomes more of a normal thing.
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think we're we're getting there.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really do have a lot of of hope in that sense.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm so thankful for this conversation.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_04: Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode, all about keeping our dance industry safe.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_04: Special shout out to our fabulous guests Keanu and Nicole for joining us on this important discussion.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_04: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_04: You can find Keanu at Keanu.ucita and Nicole at intimacyquore FL and Dance and Drama.
• 1:07:07
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• 1:07:14
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• 1:07:20
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• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_04: Be sure to check out IDA affiliated competition Gems Dance Competition.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_04: Gems Dance Competition is a fresh dance event created by studios for studios with the intent of changing the norm.
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_04: Their competitions are designed to be a positive experience for you, your staff, your students, and your entire dance family.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_04: At GEMS, you're always guaranteed an encouraging educational, professional, and fun environment at each location.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_04: With full panels of IDA judges at every event and locations throughout the Midwest, we highly recommend adding Gems Dance Competition to your 2024 competition schedule.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_04: To learn more about GEMS and register for an upcoming event, head to their website at dancegems.com and come show your sparkle at Gems Dance Competition.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_02: Season five of Making the Impact is on a roll with upcoming episodes including our next studio spotlight, pay rates in the professional dance world, and competitions versus convention competitions.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_04: We hope you're continuing to enjoy season five.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_04: We'll see you next week.
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_04: Until then, keep dancing.