Latest / Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries / #461: Anglo-Australian Telescope's Golden Jubilee, Starship's Stunning Catch & Laser Links to Mars

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#461: Anglo-Australian Telescope's Golden Jubilee, Starship's Stunning Catch & Laser Links to Mars · Space Nuts: Astronomy Insights & Cosmic Discoveries

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello again, Thank you for joining us. This is Space Nuts.
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: My name is Andrew Dunkley. I know it doesn't sound
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: like me, but I have a cold, so that's my
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: excuse and I'm sticking to it. Coming up on this
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: episode it is all about space launchers and telescopes and communications.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: We got a look at the Anglo Australian telescope fifty
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: years on Starship five's test flight, the deep space laser
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: communication system that NAS has been testing, and Europa Clipper
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: is off the ground. That's all coming up on this
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: episode of Space Nuts fifteen seconds. Guidance is Internal ten
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: nine ignition sigunch, Space Nuts four three.
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: Two Space Nuts as when I reported Neil's good.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: And joining us to unravel all the ravelment of space
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: science is Professor. I've read Wat's a Hello Fred, Hello, Hell,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: They're good to see you again, Andrew gotcha. Yes, indeed,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: I've been overseas. I know that people probably don't realize that,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: but I think we alluded to it in the last
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: few episodes that we were doing catch ups to try
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: and maintain the momentum, so we didn't miss any many weeks.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: But I've been to Turkey, which is what we call it,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: but it's Turkey in that particular country. And well you
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: can say Europe or Asia, which one do you choose?
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I mean that the country spans both continents, So yeah,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: it's fascinating country. Fred I loved it there, loved it.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: I haven't.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: Look, I chose that holiday because I wanted to go
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: to the Gallipoli Peninsula. Now that'll be familiar to Australians,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: New Zealanders, British and a few other contingents who did
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: fight on the peninsula in World War One in nineteen fifteen.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: But to people from the United States, they might go Galie,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: what Gallipoli? Gallipoli, the data and els. It was a
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: plan to take Constantinople from the Ottoman Empire in World
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: War One and it was an utter disaster, but it
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: was written into Australian folklore, so sort of a mecha
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: for Australians and New Zealanders to go there because it
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: was essentially Australia's first war as a federated nation. And
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: so I walked the beaches of Vanzac Cove and visited
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: the battlefields of Lone Pine. I wanted to see the Neck.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: The Battle of the Neck was one of the most
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: tragic advances I think the Australians fought in in the
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: entire First World War many but it was a hiding
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: to nothing. They just did not have to stand a
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: chance because they were running across ground that had cliffs
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: on both sides as wide as three tennis courts, and
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: they were up against machine guns and they just didn't
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: have a hope. And now that I've seen it, I
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: can see the problem. I didn't really you know, you've
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: heard the stories, but yeah, quite incredible.
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: I went to.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Chunnick Bear right up the top, which is where the
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: New Zealand has got, and that's as far as the
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Allies ever got in the Callipoli campaign.
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: They could see the dataels which was the target, but
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: they never got near them. Yeah.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: And then we visited all sorts of other places, some
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: incredible ruins, including the famous city of Troy.
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: And then we spent seven days out on a boat
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: on the Mediterranean, just flitting around from port to port
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: or cove to cove, swimming and relaxing and telling silly
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: stories to each other and eating up a dorms. Great
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: fabulous country. Loved it. Istanbul is just amazing, but so
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: as some of the other places you've probably never heard of,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: like Fettia and Cash and places like that, well.
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: Worth a visit.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: I would go back tomorrow. Yeah, So what have you
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: been up to while I've been away? You've been busy,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: You've been busy.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just a few minor you know, plans shaping my
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: entire future, which we won't go into at the moment,
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: but there might be news down the track, but more
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: especially it will lead into our first item. I think
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: we've recently had a symposium to celebrate the fiftieth anniversary
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: of the Anglo Australian Telescope, the largest optical telescope on
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Australian soil, together with the annual Siding Spring Starfest, which
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: is the open weekend that always happens at the beginning
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: of October.
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which I went to a couple of time times
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: over the years, but I was away for this one.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: And look, fifty years is an incredible achievement. But for
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: twenty of those years you were in charge of that place.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: That's correct, and actually.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: And that's how we met.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: It is how we met, that's right when there was
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: astronomer in charge there. So yes, it's as I said,
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: the biggest telescope on Australian soil, mirror three point nine
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: meters in diameter and sits on the mountain in the
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Warren Bungle Mountain range. Warren Bungle is a go millar
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Ray word. It means crooked mountains that's not very far
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: from where you are now, and yeah, they are very crooked.
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: So we had a lot to do with each other.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: But what a lot of people in the astronomical community
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: don't realize because they have no idea that I am
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: actually one hundred and ninety years old, but I was
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: involved with the Anglo Australian Telescope before it was even
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: built because my first job in astronomy and the only
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: time I've ever worked for a private company other than
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: with casual student jobs, I was an optical physicist fresh
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: out of university at a company by the name of
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: Sir Howard Grubb, Parsons and Company Limited, which was founded
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: back in the eighteen thirties or its original version was,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: and that was the company that got the contract to
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: build the telescope itself. That's what we call the tube,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: even though it's more like a you know, it's an
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: open framework and the optics they had the contract to
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: do that. The mounting of the telescope, a bit that
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: pointed around the sky, was built by the Mitsubishi Corporation
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: in Japan, who you may have heard of. And my job,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: this is back in nineteen sixty nine, was just after
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: the sting for the mirror. So the mirror is made
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: of not glass quite, it's a glass ceramic material called
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: serve It, which has which has zero expansion coefficient, which
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: means that as the temperature changes, it doesn't change its shape.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Quite a revolution at the time, because you know, as
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: the temperature warmed. With old fashioned telescopes, she had to
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: refocus them and do all sorts of things, but Servit
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: changed all that. So this twenty ton casting three point
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: nine meter diameter casting of Servit material was cast in Ohio,
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: which is where O AND's Illinois, despite their name, where
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: they had their glass factory. My boss at the time
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: went to inspect this glass blank in nineteen sixty nine
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: and came back saying it's all good. There is no
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: there are no flaws with it that will compromise its
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: you know, it's becoming a perfect mirror and it's coming
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: back to the United Kingdom where I was working. What
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: we need is we need a proper mat for it
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: to sit on while the optical polishing is taking place.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: But it's more than a matt. It was an air bag.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: So this was two thick pieces of polyethylene welded together
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: around the edge three point nine meters in diameter, to
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: be filled with air under high pressure when the mirror arrived,
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: so it could sit on that for the optical surfacing,
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: which actually took about four years and removed something like
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: four tons of material. The finished mirror was sixteen tons,
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: delivered in nineteen seventy three to the observatory. I didn't
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: actually make the air bag, but I did start the
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: work on the air bag. Remember these huge pieces of
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: black polyethylene. That was my part in the origins of
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: the Anglo Australian Telescope. As you said, it very quickly
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: became an icon in its own right. It was commissioned, well,
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: it was actually opened in fact, as we are recording
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: this on the sixteenth of October twenty twenty four. It
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: was opened fifty years ago today by a gentleman who
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: simply signed his name Charles in the visitors book and
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: has now been promoted is his Majesty the King he
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: opened it, and that's what we're celebrating with that anniversary.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: It went into service in nineteen seventy five immediately became
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: one of the leading telescopes in the world because it
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: was the first telescope of its size to be completely
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: computer controlled, and that meant it was could work very efficiently.
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: And another thing that put it very quickly on the
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: map was the photographic work of my friend and colleague
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: David Malin lives not very far from where I'm sitting
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: now in retirement, although he's still active. He perfected the
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: art and science of making true color images of the sky,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: which had never been done before. He used a combination
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: of three photographic plates and in red light, one in
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: blue light, one in green light, combined them together to
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: make true color images, and they became world famous. There
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: were books and albums and all sorts of things, but that,
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: plus the scientific ability of the telescope is what really
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: put it on the map, and so for fifty years
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: it's been one of the leading instruments in the world's
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: arsenal of great telescopes.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: We nearly lost it, though, didn't we At Big Fire.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's correct. Twenty thirteen, the thirteenth of January was
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: the date the womble On fire swept across the top
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: of siding Spring Mountain and nearly took out everything. The
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: reason why it didn't one of the reasons why it
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: was that exactly a decade earlier, almost to the day,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: not quite, but almost to the day, a similar fire
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: had swept across the Mount Stromlow Observatory in Canberra, which
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: was the parent body of the Siding Spring Observatory, and
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: that did take out pretty well everything. And the bottom
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: line was lessons were learned from that that were applied
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: at Siding Springs, so we had amber screens on all
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: the windows. One of the problems with the bush fire
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: is that the ambers, the burning embers get through the windows,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: they smash the glass and before you know where you are,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: you've got a fire inside the building. Doesn't matter how
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: you know how good it is on the outside, the
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: fires burning inside. And that's what happened Stromlo. We were
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: saved from that by the lessons learned, plus the aerial
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: water bombing of the Rural Fire Service as well. So yeah,
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: they were infrastructed.
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: They were fabulous.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Of course, you and I spent a lot of time
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: on here over those twenty years talking astronomy and some
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: of the things achieved by the Anglo Australian Telescope. And
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: our transmitters were on the neighboring mountain, yes, zen Kruek,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and our transmitters were under threat from that same fire,
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and the Royal Fire Service saved our transmitters by bombing
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: it with retardant, and the whole top of the mountain
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: was pink. I got some photos of it, and it
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: saved the transmitters. And I actually got into trouble from
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: the ABC because I didn't tell anyone in Sydney that
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: our transmitters were under threat, simply because nobody told me.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: But that was no excuse apparently. But yeah, but andrew
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: you any harrowing time.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: You were always in trouble with the ABC.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Now if I was over, yes, I pretty well defied
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: political correctness on a few occasions and got me into
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: some boiling water.
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: But great time spread, great time.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: There were just very briefly, just to give you a
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: flavor of our listeners, of a flavor of what the
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: telescope did. It you know, had some world first It
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: was the first telescope to see down to the surface
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: of Venus with infrarend like penetrating the clouds. It was
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: one of the first telescopes to discover the optical flashes
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: of light from these rapidly spinning neutron stars that we
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: call pulsars. In later years, it made and still does
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: actually made huge surveys of the environment of our galaxy
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: in the universe. So we've got, you know, surveys out
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: to several billion light years. I think it's about five
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: billion light years now, the originally it was two and
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: a half billion light years. Where you map all the
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: galaxies and from that you can deduce the structure. You find.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: There's this kind of honeycomb structure of galaxies which we
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: relate to the Big Bang, and it lets us learn
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: more about dark matter and dark energy. The actual structure
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: that's imprinted on the universe as a whole is still
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: doing that, and the other thing it's doing is investigating
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: galaxies themselves in detail and discovering and characterizing the planets
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: and of the stars. So it's right across all these
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: hot topics in contemporary astrophysics. Fifty years after it was built,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: it's pretty good.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: It's remarkable and hopefully it will keep on keeping on.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: My first and last sojourn into television was with you
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: at the observatory.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: So long ago.
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they were testing whether or not regional stations, regional
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: radio stations could become kind of television bureaus. It was
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: somewhat successful. I think they've reignited that policy now. But yeah,
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: we did a story about the two d AP wasn't
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: it the two degree field Yes, I think yes, which
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: was installed there.
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Great, it's a great facility.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: After that fire, you could drive towards Kunebarrabrin from Dubbo
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: and you could see this white pimple on the side
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: of the mountain because none of the trees were there,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: so the observatory stood out like a literal sourcear. Yes,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: it's a remarkable site driving towards the Warren Bungles, but
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: even more spectacular with all the trees burned away.
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: It has changed the whole landscape.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: But yeah, congratulations for your part of it, because you
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: were there for quite a significant part of those fifty years.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Well done to you and everybody. Fred let us on
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: if you want to read about it.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: Fred's written a terrific article about the telescope in the
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Australian Geographic magazine online at Australian Geographic dot com dot au. Fred,
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: let's have a quick chat about SpaceX and their test
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: launch the other day. The Starship rocket last weekend, as
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: we speak, got off the ground. This was a really
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: interesting launch, not only forgetting it off the ground but
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: getting it back in a way I've never seen before.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: And when I watched the video, I went, this has
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: got to be science fiction.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: That's not real. Yeah, it's computer generated.
• 16:10
  Speaker 3: But no.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: In fact, they did catch the rocket in like clamps
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: back on the platform. Amazing, a pair of giant chopsticks.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: Yes, so what they described them as.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: So, I mean we you know, I've been keeping an
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: eye on this for a long time and because this
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: has been planned for a long time. The idea of
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: capturing the booster, the Falcon super heavy seventy one meters high.
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that is in feet, but it's
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: a lot. It is the basically the first stage of
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Elon Musk Starship project, and that idea of capturing the
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: booster by this extraordinary mechanism of a couple of clamps
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: that grab it as it falls back down to the
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: to the launch pad where it left from seemed like
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: a crazy idea. We've been talking they've been talking about
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: it for years, but then this week we actually watched
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: it happen on TV and it was truly amazing. So
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: just quickly about the rationale for this, Andrew, I think
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: most of the people who catch our podcasts will be
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: aware that the Falcon Falcon nine boosters, which are really
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: the workhourse of Star Sorry SpaceX's fleet. They routinely land
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: on bar drone barges and they touched down on a
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: flat surface, but they've got landing legs which fold outwards.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: I've stood underneath them actually in Houston and at Cape Canaveral,
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: they they've got ones that have actually flown there. Those
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: landing legs fold out and the rocket touch down and
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: of course doesn't fall over because you've deployed the landing
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: legs and they hold it up. But for the Falcon
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: super heavy, it is so super heavy that landing legs
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: strong enough to keep it upright just couldn't be made,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: at least with the weight penalty that you'd have to
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: take with you up to deliver whatever payload it is
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: you're delivering into orbit. So this really audacious idea of
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: capturing it with these two chopsticks on this structure that
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: they call mecha Zilla is amazing. And you know, I
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: don't even think Elon thought it would work first time,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: but it damn well has done. So that start that flight.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: It's called Starship five. It launched from Bocachica in Texas,
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Orange Site with the starship itself, which is the payload.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: The pair of them what is it, one hundred and
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: twenty one meters tall, incredible went up as planned. The
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: starship itself was injected into orbit. It only made half
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: an orbit, but it was actually an orbital velocity that
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: dropped under control. Actually it was a soft landing, but
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: not on land.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: It was in the ocean.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: I think it was the Indian Ocean, if I remember rightly.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: While seven minutes after the launch, the super heavy launch,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: the booster itself came back down to Earth where it
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: set off from, was grabbed by these two clamps and
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: is now sitting there ready to be used again where
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: it needs to be. You don't have to go out
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: to the Atlantic to get it, bring it back or whatever.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: It's where it needs to be used again. Achievement almost
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: a game changer I think in spaceflight.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure, it'll save them a lot of time
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: and probably a little bit of money in the process too,
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: because the recovery process must be very costly and time consuming.
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they can make this work time and time again.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: It'll it'll just.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Just increases the efficiency of the process. So well done
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: to everybody at SpaceX with that Starship launch test launch
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: that was so successful and so spectactic. If you haven't
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: watched it the X, just do a search online and
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: find the Starship five test flight and watch the video
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: of the landing. That thing just drops like a rock
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: and just to watch it adjust its trajectory and balance
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and flight path and just sort of coming back to Earth.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: It's like you're watching a film in reverse.
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: That's what it loves like. Yeah, it's quite incredible.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: This is space nuts. Andrew Unkley here with Professor Fred Watson.
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  Speaker 2: Space buds.
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  Speaker 4: That was Fred sniffing, not me.
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  Speaker 2: Oh did I sniff? Actually I did sniff. I do apologize.
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  Speaker 4: It could have been me. It could easily have been me.
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  Speaker 2: I'm usually careful with that sort of thing, but my god.
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  Speaker 3: Do I know that's can we get in the when
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  Speaker 3: the jingles are on it just sort of yeah, you think, yeah, embarrassing.
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  Speaker 4: It's all good for it, it's all good. Just o't
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  Speaker 4: cat No.
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  Speaker 2: I'll try to avoid that by being three killings.
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  Speaker 4: Probably not far enough.
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  Speaker 1: One of the most important things in space flight and
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: space travel and putting bases on moons and planets, which
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  Speaker 1: will probably ultimately happen, probably sooner than we think, is
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  Speaker 1: communications and NASA. NASA has been looking at methods of
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  Speaker 1: communication that you know, through through a series of tests,
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  Speaker 1: and they've been very successful with this particular process, which
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  Speaker 1: I am still trying to get my head around. But
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  Speaker 1: it's it's a laser data system. And am I right
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  Speaker 1: in saying that they've actually successfully sent signals to Mars.
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  Speaker 2: It's it's it's the distance that Mars is out that
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  Speaker 2: it's not true that they've sent signals to Mars. Well,
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  Speaker 2: they might, they might have done, but they're not have
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  Speaker 2: come back because there's nothing on Mars to send them back.
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  Speaker 2: But the reason why Mars is mentioned in this story
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  Speaker 2: is that the distance that have these signals have been
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  Speaker 2: successfully received and transmitted four hundred and sixty million kilometers
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  Speaker 2: or two hundred and ninety miles two hundred ninety million
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  Speaker 2: miles of make apart. It's the same distance as separates
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  Speaker 2: Mars and the Earth when they too at their furthest apart.
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  Speaker 1: To Mars, but to a distance equivalent itchroxtremity.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, it's almost half a billion kilometers. It's wow, an
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  Speaker 2: amazing distance, and it's part of a project that is
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  Speaker 2: really all about something completely different. This is the Psyche spacecraft,
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  Speaker 2: which is on its way to an asteroid called Psyche, which,
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  Speaker 2: like so many other things in astronomy, is very close
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  Speaker 2: to my heart because Psyche was one of the asteroids
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  Speaker 2: that I tested my brand new software on that I
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  Speaker 2: wrote for my master's degree back in the eighteen fifties
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  Speaker 2: or whatever it wants it was. So Psyche is an
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  Speaker 2: asteroid that I've known about for a long time. It's
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  Speaker 2: of great interest today. Can you remember why it's exciting
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  Speaker 2: as an asteroid? Andrew, Yes, good, well, I'll tell you
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  Speaker 2: it's a metal asteroid.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I was going to say that I should
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  Speaker 1: trust myself, trust yourself.
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  Speaker 4: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: Should put your money where your mouth is, or your
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  Speaker 2: mouth where your money is. That must might be the
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  Speaker 2: right one or the other. It's it's it may be
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  Speaker 2: the sort of denuded core of a protoplanet that never formed.
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  Speaker 2: So it's thought to be mostly made of II. That
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  Speaker 2: may be other stuff mixed with it, but it's it's
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  Speaker 2: got that density that suggests it is the actual core
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  Speaker 2: of a of a of a planet that never made it.
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  Speaker 2: So Psyche the asteroid is being visited by Psyche the spacecraft,
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  Speaker 2: but en route the spacecraft has been testing out this
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  Speaker 2: new technology of optical communications. So what you do is
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  Speaker 2: to use a laser rather than a radio transmitter, and
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  Speaker 2: beam your signals which are modulated with the information that
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  Speaker 2: you want to carry in just the same way as
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  Speaker 2: you do with the radio signal, and you pick it
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  Speaker 2: up at the other end, and you look at what
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  Speaker 2: you've got. Now, this is not it's not sort of
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  Speaker 2: insignificant technology. The transmitter on the Earth is a laboratory.
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  Speaker 2: It is actually near right Wood in California, and it's
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  Speaker 2: run by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory. They have a facility
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  Speaker 2: at a place called Table Mountain which is near right Wood,
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  Speaker 2: and that's got the terrestrial laser transmitter on board which
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  Speaker 2: beams out wait for it, seven killer watts of laser
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  Speaker 2: power up towards Psyche. So you've got to have because
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  Speaker 2: Psyche itself has only got a small telescope. To receive
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  Speaker 2: these signals, you need to beam them out with a
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  Speaker 2: huge power, which is why it's a seven killerwa laser.
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  Speaker 2: Remember that you're even a strong laser pointer will be
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  Speaker 2: about three milliwatts or something like that, two to three milliwatts,
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  Speaker 2: So seven killer whats is a lot. The spacecraft receives
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  Speaker 2: those with its little optical dish and could then beam
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  Speaker 2: signals back. Now, because the spacecraft doesn't have a seven
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  Speaker 2: killer what laser on board, it means that at this end,
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  Speaker 2: if you're trying to get the signals back from the spacecraft,
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  Speaker 2: you've got to have a big telescope. And in fact
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  Speaker 2: what they've been using is an instrument that for many
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  Speaker 2: years was the biggest optical telescope in the world, the
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  Speaker 2: Hail Telescope at Mount Palomar, not far from San Diego
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  Speaker 2: in California. It's a five meter telescope two hundred inch.
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  Speaker 2: When I was a lad, it was my father the
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  Speaker 2: biggest telescope in the world. There were pictures of it everywhere,
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  Speaker 2: prominent in history, and now it's still a fully used
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  Speaker 2: optical astronomy telescope. But it's also being borrowed to be
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  Speaker 2: used as a ground station for this experiment. What is
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  Speaker 2: the point of it, Well, if you can use optical
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  Speaker 2: communications from space or even on the ground, you've got
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  Speaker 2: data rates that are up to one hundred times more
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  Speaker 2: than you can with radio frequencies. You can pack much
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  Speaker 2: much more data into your signals, and so it is
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  Speaker 2: particularly for space communications, is being seen as a really
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  Speaker 2: interesting way forward for our future in communications in deep
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  Speaker 2: space using lasers. These are in forra read lasers. Then
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  Speaker 2: they're not visible light wavelengths, but they're still much much
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  Speaker 2: more capable in terms of their data content.
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  Speaker 1: The radio signals are lasers amazing what they can do
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  Speaker 1: with them, and they use them in medicine and radio
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  Speaker 1: radiation oncology, they use them in day to day life.
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  Speaker 1: They use them, as you said, with pointers, just little
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  Speaker 1: things like that, and idiots use them in their backyards
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  Speaker 1: to try and infew with aircraft.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, there's it's all sorts of that've become such
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  Speaker 4: a very.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know, pliable tool in so many ways.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Another tool that astronomers use them for is to create
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  Speaker 2: artificial stars that their adaptive optic systems can lock onto.
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  Speaker 2: So some of the biggest telescopes in the world in
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  Speaker 2: Hawaii in Chile have these laser systems that what they
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  Speaker 2: do is they shoot out light of wavelength the same
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: wavelength that sodium atoms a bit. And you'll all remember
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  Speaker 2: the yellowish color of sodium lamps, sodium vapor lamps, which
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  Speaker 2: that's the characteristic color of glowing sodium. But if you
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  Speaker 2: beam a laser up to the upper atmosphere at about
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  Speaker 2: ninety kilometers above the Earth, there is a layer of
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  Speaker 2: sodium and you can excite it to glow like an
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  Speaker 2: artificial star if you pump it up with a laser,
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  Speaker 2: and then you can lock onto that with your adaptive
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  Speaker 2: optic system to remove the twinkling effect of the atmosphere.
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  Speaker 2: So that's one of the new technologies that astronomers use
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  Speaker 2: using laser.
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  Speaker 1: Not to mention also military applications, but we it's a
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  Speaker 1: very sensitive subject. So well there's all that too, Yes,
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  Speaker 1: that's right, say nothing more about that at the moment.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great story.
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  Speaker 1: If you'd like to read read all about it, you
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: can do that at Sidetechdaily dot com. And being an
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: ASSA project, you probably find it on their website as well. Okay,
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: we take all for space nuts, from one mission to another,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: from Psyche to europea clipper. We could not finish the
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: show without mentioning that it is now up and running.
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  Speaker 1: Europa Clipper is a go and was launched this week
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  Speaker 1: our time.
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  Speaker 2: Indeed it was, and so far everything's functioning perfectly. It
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  Speaker 2: has already unfurled its solar panels, which I think I'm
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: right in saying are the biggest in the biggest solar
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  Speaker 2: panels that have been used for an interplanetary mission. They're
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: thirty one meters long, which is a lass. What's that
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  Speaker 2: one hundred feet are there about it?
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: That's about the size of your average caravan. No, once
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  Speaker 1: you get around, yeah, what did you get stuck behind?
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: Exactly?
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  Speaker 2: So it's yeah, So it's on its way. It's going
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  Speaker 2: to enter orbit around Jupiter, even though it's looking at Europa,
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  Speaker 2: one of Jupiter's moons. It will be in orbit around
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  Speaker 2: Jupiter from Is twenty thirty is when it will arrive.
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  Speaker 2: It will make. It has a four year lifetime and
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  Speaker 2: during that time we'll make forty nine flybys of Europa.
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  Speaker 2: The water world, the ice world that we know is
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  Speaker 2: orbiting Jupiter, a rocky body with all a global ocean
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  Speaker 2: over the top of it and a layer of ice
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  Speaker 2: over the top of that. So every three weeks or
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  Speaker 2: so it will sail past Europa, which is why it's
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  Speaker 2: called the Europa Clipper, because that's what it's going to do,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: ye past Europa and it's it will you know, it's
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  Speaker 2: festooned with things like ice penetrating radar and all of
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  Speaker 2: that sort of stuff that will allow us to detect
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  Speaker 2: what sort of content the water beneath the ocean might have.
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  Speaker 2: It will also we think, like Saturn's moon Enceladus, Europa
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  Speaker 2: has plumes of ice coming from its polar regions and
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  Speaker 2: so Europa Clipper will fly through those and it's got
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  Speaker 2: equipment on board that will say whether there are any
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  Speaker 2: perhaps suggestions of prebiotic molecules in the water or even biomarkers.
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  Speaker 2: Maybe we might discover that there's something in that water
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  Speaker 2: ice that tells you that there is life beneath the
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  Speaker 2: icy surface of Europa. That would be the discovery of
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  Speaker 2: the sension still bedding on krill.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: I've got very very long odds on a detecting whale song.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: But well that's right. Well, so might be there.
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  Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be the extraordinary?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: Probably, it'll probably be squid. Science fiction always seems to
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  Speaker 1: go to the squid, like yes, discoveries on these kinds
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  Speaker 1: of world.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it could be, could be.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, Ut least I have something to eat when we
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: finally go there.
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  Speaker 4: But it's very exciting. It's a long mission.
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  Speaker 1: If you've got a job on this mission, you could
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  Speaker 1: be pretty happy because you've probably been involved long enough
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: to get long service leave.
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  Speaker 4: So it's a big mibb.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, And it'll probably.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Lasts longer than the four years that they've given it,
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  Speaker 1: because that seems to be the norm these days with
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  Speaker 1: some of these spacecraft.
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  Speaker 4: They just keep going.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, look at the Voyagers and all those things
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  Speaker 1: that are still trundling around on Mars that we thought
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  Speaker 1: would be forever gone long ago, and they're still working.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Everything seems to work well past it's use by date
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: these days, which is a good thing. We'll probably possibly
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: get more out of it, unless they're planning to crash
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: it into something for it.
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: Are they?
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: I don't know.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I don't know what the mission is, but you're right,
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: that was exactly what I was thinking, because in some ways,
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: it's a kin to Cassini, which was in orbit to
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: satur And the reason why it was crashed into Saturn's
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: atmosphere to melt basically by friction, is in order to
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: avoid any suspicion of contamination by some of the moons
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: of Saturn that may contain living organisms. So maybe a
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: similar fate, It's bless you, maybe a similar fate away.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: It's Europa Clipper at the end of its life.
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: That was my wife.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: It's become part of the program that she has to
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: sneeze at least once during a recording section.
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I'm just grateful that it wasn't me sniffing.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the thing is she'd probably do about twenty five
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: more before she's finished.
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: She only sneezes once a week, but she does them
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: all at once. Oh gosh.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great story, and europea clipper on its way.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: So sit back, relax, get yourself hurt, spin a collad
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: and we'll get back to you in twenty thirty.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: So yeah, we probably Well that's the tough part about you.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: You've got to be patient. You've got to be patient.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: You can find that story on the NASA dot Gov website.
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: We're just about done. Don't forget to visit our website.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: As well while you're online Space Nuts podcast dot comspacenuts
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: dot io and have a look around.
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: Don't forget.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: We've got the Astronomy Daily news feed there that you
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: can subscribe to. You can communicate with us via the
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: am a link up the top.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: There.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: You can visit the shop if you've got the old
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Christmas is coming up. You know, if you've got Astronomy
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: nuts in the family, you might find something really juicy
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: there that you can get somebody for Christmas. Whether it's
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: a T shirt or a cap or a book or
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: there's all sorts of stuff. Space Nuts podcast dot Com
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: is the site and we are done. Fred, thank you
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: so much.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me and great
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: to see you again. Andrew.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Always good to have you along, Fred, Otherwise I'd be
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: sitting here just doing that getting RSI of the thumbs.
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: Yes, thanks Red, Fred, Wat's an astronomer at large.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: And thanks to here in the studio for being so
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: very patient and sitting back for four weeks waiting for
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: me to get back from Turkey and from me Andrew
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: uncle you thanks for your company. Catch you on the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: very next episode of Space Nuts. Bye bye, Thanks.
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: You'll be listening to the Space Nuts podcast.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Available at Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or your favorite podcast player.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: You can also stream on demand at bites dot com.
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: This has been another quality podcast production from nights dot com.