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Mishlei 25:21-22 - Mishleic Revenge is a Dish Best Served (Part 2) · The Mishlei Podcast

• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, day two of Mishlay 21, sorry, 25, 21 through 22.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: If your enemy is hungry, feed him bread.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: If he is thirsty, provide water for him to drink, bring your shovely coals onto his head, and Hashem will pay you back.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: We said there's ambiguity.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Either he will reward you or he'll pay you back in a negative way, like punishment.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Questions.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: Who is your son'aha?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: To what extent is this objective or subjective and defined by feelings versus actions?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: And to what extent does it even matter in terms of the advice?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: What can or can't be inferred from the fact that Hashem is rewarding you?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: What can or can't be inferred from the possessive son'acha instead of like Sone or Russia?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Two, practically speaking, what's included in hunger and thirst and feeding and providing drink?
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Is this limited to these exact actions or any physical needs or any acts of Sadak and Chasid?
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: How far does this go?
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: What are the parameters?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: What's the shear of interaction?
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is Shlomo talking about a one-time thing or an established pattern?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Is it necessary to mention food and water, or is that stylistic?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: And either way, what is it adding?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: Also, uh, are we to infer from the em that you're only able to implement this when he's in a situation of need?
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: Three, how is feeding him and giving him water like putting coals on his head?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Basic question.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_02: Four, what's the cause and effect between your actions toward your enemy and how God relates to you?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Also, basic question.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: Five, how are we supposed to read the relationship between the two actions?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is it saying that you are feeding him and pouring hot coals, or you might think you're feeding him, but you're really pouring hot coals?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: Six, what does Yeshalem Lach mean according to the Pshat, reward or payback punishment style?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Seven, what is the relationship uh in the kiddish between uh Kihal Atar Khosiar Rosho and Adarshem Yeshalem Lach?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Eight, what's the practical application?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Is this plus advocating this behavior proactively, like the Khaqhila, and using the reward as an incentive, or is the main point that if you want this reward, you should do this, but there's there's no imperative to engage your enemy at all.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Should you seek out opportunities for this, either for yourself or uh for being on the Javero purposes or for the society as a whole, or is this just the best course of action if you should happen to find yourself in this scenario?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm not gonna review the idea we had uh my child from yesterday because we'll see it a couple more times.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um I do want to point out Moshe Koppel said that the Havamina is that you should take revenge on him in a negative way, uh, but that's only gonna make things worse.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and that when he sees that you're being kind to him, he'll drop the aggression out of shame, and that will open a path to a new relationship.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I wanted to say, like, I wonder if you could read it as uh Yeshalim Lach as he'll make peace with you.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: So check out the Miri.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I mean, okay, well, you'll see.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: So he says, Hanigle bo he'aras shalom yihi adam achzari.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So he's learning it that this is a negative.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so I'm gonna put that another one.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: All right, um, so um, that this is a negative, right?
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: That that uh that actually we'll see.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, about she rachem albryos aflosonov.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: You should be merciful even to your enemies.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: The ummar alze, imrahila hulafomir, etc.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: etc.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Upirsh uh, opiosho lo kehminha machda la holicham al rosho, kmo lochitos ishmiakodhu, keloshumani adam, shumru shha panim nisrafim mirovosha.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: So it's using cold because your face is hot from the embarrassment.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So when he takes his needs from you, his face is uh is burning.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if you could infer from there that Dafka needs, but we'll see how the people talk about it.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: The shamir meheralacha.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: So that's another interesting thing.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: He's saying that this will actually have a beneficial impact on you, that as a result of the shame, he will refrain from hurting you more.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so not just you're causing pain, but it's actually going to be to your benefit, uh, objectively.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: But a shem ishalim lach shakha kaful and razal peershuhu kamo yashli menu imah.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so it's drash, I'll direct drash, right?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: He'll make peace with you.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I don't know if when he's bringing this proof that um that uh that he's saying that you could read it this way, like literally, because he says, the silam uh nivas sidkacha, uh that God will um make your um I guess shilam without the dagesh would be he will pay, but shilam, I guess, with the dagesh is that he will make whole.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I mean I know that from that e of that's how um they translate that he'll make whole the abode of your uh your righteousness, uh or make you know um uh you know shalem.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uhara almidas ha rachmanos, uhzarius.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so that's different than what we had before, but the closest to Moshe's uh parish.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um before we go to the Derech Nister, I want to show you Sadhya Gaon.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: So Sadhya Gaon also says uh in the uh parish, not in the Targum, Lotiva Ah I think this is Sanui.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um it is not uh Linho Kane Kade Lahosi Pakakh Lisona O Tsar.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's not commanding you to behave this way against your enemy to increase his pain.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so not like I said in the Matzu David said, um Ella tivahu la hitiv of lisloachlo.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's commanding uh him to benefit him and and uh to forgive him even further.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Viti Tovaso Ra'a al Sono Beroa Bhiras Oivo, Bakakshi Hehu Metivlow, Bahu Mitar Laatmoshihi Ra.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Bukvari Data, as in other words, um he's gonna perceive he's gonna be ashamed because he's gonna perceive it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, is this the correct Bakakshi Hehu Metivlow that you're benefiting him?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: Bahahu Matir Laatmoshihi Ra.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I think he's gonna like view himself as bad in retrospect because he's the bad guy now because you're you're doing good to him.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you see from there that it's not limited to needs, okay, uh, from the Haman thing.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't know what he did with the uh the king of uh Aram.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Alpha Pish Inam Ra'ivim.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Kol Shaken Handisrahan.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: So he's saying it's a koshkin in the sense of the main issue is that you are basically you're being the better man and highlighting his uh you know antagonistic enemy-like uh actions towards you.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so and that doesn't seem to be the way he's learning it, right?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: Because he's saying uh Alpha Pishainum raiden.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, okay, so now turns out, and I'm not surprised.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, by the way, I want to say I'm I'm not gonna be reading a lot of the Mefarshim who did take our approach.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_02: It was not just the Matus Dub and the Rob, it's also the Mobim and others.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I don't want to give the impression that like our approach is not supported, but I'm just gonna read the different ones.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so exactly on point, all the Derek Nisters are pretty much the same.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So let's look at the Miri.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um I mean there's there's slight differences, but uh uh general uh decoding in the same way.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uv Derech Nister, Hasone huhay tahara.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so the enemy is Yuri Tahara.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh hunger and thirst are a marshal for excessive desires for bodily pleasures.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Kinyan must be u rah must be o ra'aiv.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that's Khazal's thing about there's a uh I think that's the Yesh Averkata.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: If you satiate him, he will be uh it'll make him more hungry, right?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um'im he mashal al-limotatora, that gives good quotes here.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh hoi kot.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Those are in the Niveyim that lachem is compared to Torah and Chachman, same thing with Mayim.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Ki kehalam at Rosho, who mashal al Hachna'aso.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that's interesting, also, is it is uh hachna'a, which we have to think about.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Same thing in the drush, plumar but lateva tservbaha yoshir.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: So when you help it, I guess through providing, then it will return to the nature of sedekir, I think, means like even tempered and yosher, meaning like um it'll be quelled in terms of uh not being uh blessing after excesses.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's another memor that if you encounter this uh uh you know disgusting one, then bring him to the base of midrash.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: Im Evanhu, Nimulafim Bar Barzello, whom he's potates.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: If he's a stone, he'll dissolve.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: If he's iron, he'll split.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: So we have to think about that.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: I also want to read uh someone else gave a good um.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, that's a different I do want to read him.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh maybe I was imagining it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's funny, I um I highlighted things and then I uh didn't realize that I had been logged out of my um account.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um because I I reset uh my uh I cleaned a bunch of browser stuff, uh resetting all the cookies or whatever.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I'm not finding what I wanted to find.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Isaac.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: I have a different underge.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so let's uh let's figure this one out first, though, just to get clear here.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: So what exactly is going on here?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um how does giving it Cachma be Machniya it?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: To me, that's the most intriguing part, right?
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: You're subduing it.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: It could just be subduing it, but like how does that work?
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and also is it in the moment or is it over time?
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: And and and I still feel like he's not really bringing out the Gehalim aspect of the mushroom, yeah.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think there's a question on this.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't seem to me at least that he's he's really uh addressing with the the content of the mushroom because of the in the mushroom you're giving the you're giving your enemy what he needs.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And here it sounds like you're not giving me what you need to give me a instead.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: No no no.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, um your Itsahara does need Hachma.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I mean it it does not need what I think it needs, it does not need uh Taiwan's kufanios, it really needs Hachma and uh Torah, yeah, Mojo?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say that you can think about Haganda that when the expira is a title or something, but I think the only way to satisfy it is with Taigo's Kufanios.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like intellectual titles just it's totally different, so it's not for the Zahara.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, right.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, you're only you're in the mood for it.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, otherwise it's just not gonna work.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, okay, yeah, that's good.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So actually, you know, it's funny.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I uh I just now remember what I was gonna show you.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: There is a good Vilna Gone on this, but I did not finish it because it was too long.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: He ties this into Lishma and Shalolishmah, and that experience of like thinking that the last thing you want right now is to learn, and then it can have an instant effect.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember what I wanted to show you.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so Zurachiain, who's the Maimonidean one, so he does a knister and then he does a mashup.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, so uh so he says he doesn't say in in terms of positive or negative, but it's related to actual revenge.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: So if a person is uh is uh overpowered by the hara, yehin moshet also lhokma ha nikra lachan.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: I've never seen that in the plural ever.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, this is the the um the uh character of the m most yet zaharas, which is that uh kik hamargil behem hu mis avel lahem yoser, the more you accustom them um uh through habit, like by feeding it in, feeding it, the more it will desire.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So this is a better description here is that the more you accustom it to getting its needs, it's more like a uh it's more like a spoiled child in that way, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: That that like it's not that giving into it.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I'm not negating this, but he's he's not saying that if you give into it, the does the the like quantity of the desire necessarily increases or gets stronger.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: He's saying that it'll become accustomed, it'll become more addicted and more demanding, um, and it'll be difficult to separate from that.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Valkyran kar hapas with raev, the son, um ra'aiv lufi tevaha goof, the son of tevaha nafesh.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it is uh hungry uh in terms of the bodily nature and uh it's sone based on the soul.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, now I just want to read this here, we'll work on this separately.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: But Tukholoparaj Gankin Im Yeah Sonacha Mamesh Ra Evla Chachma Lontimna Enemy Meno.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a mashup here is that that if your actual enemy is hungry, then for um for um Chachma, you should give him Chachmah.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Don't withhold Chachma on account of the fact that he's your enemy.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um okay, so yeah, so did this give us any insight into the actual dare minister here?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't have to go based on the Miri.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just saying, like uh, you know, what what's the dynamic of of giving them Chachma?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_02: See, definitely in the long run, Michle shows us that if you provide Hachma for the um if you provide Hochma, it will uh over time bring your desires in line with with your actual needs.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: So over time you'll quell it, but the way the Fazal say it is it's like you know, you could stop the Atar in its tracks, which I think is more along the uh your lines, which is that that um you know, I know the uh the old uh you know Ybt Freudian way, I'm not saying it's wrong, but but just the unthinking automatic Freudian shot is you have a lot of psychic energy and like it's going towards the taivas, and if you bring to the smidrash, then you'll sublimate it to Chachma.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I think that's true, but like it doesn't mean I understand it, you know.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have to like uh understand how that works.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: And by the way, that's not just a Ybt Freudian thing, that's Rambom and Fazal.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I want to read the uh um uh come on, Fazal work for you.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, um but uh no the um the Fazal says this the Ramba quotes the good the the Fazal at the end of uh Yesuri Bia, um specifically with the sexual.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: He says, um it goes into all the stuff that is uh um you know the prevalence of uh of a rayos and isurabiya.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: This is in 2220, royal atam la chuf yetaver.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's proper for a person to uh subdue his yet in this matter.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Ulhargiel atom of the kidusha yesera, uvamhshava tora, uv das nahona kadailhinasal mehen, uh, and to accustom himself in excess excess kidusha, which I think here I'm plugging in my definition of you know transcending your animalistic desires.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, uv machshava torah, pure thoughts, which I assume that means like working on the not indulging in fantasy.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uv da'as nakona, that I don't know in this context what that means.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if that means actual knowledge or or das somehow in relation to the isurabiya or the atahara.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: Be careful about yihud because that's the big gorim to these things.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh okay, and then he gives a bunch of yihud warnings.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah, this is the part.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh, I meant to start here.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_02: Person should distance himself from uh skok here.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the means um means flirting.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, because I remember uh I always remember Faisak explaining this when it says that um in talking about how you should relate to your wife, and he says, like you should um uh there's some statement that like talks about skok, and I remember Facebook saying it doesn't mean telling her knocknog jokes.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so it does not mean like like joking.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Umina shikru uh maybe a better term for skok is also like foreplay, certain types of uh, you know, um uh uminah shikrus, umidivir agavim.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think that's like like uh again, like sensual, like uh erotic like type stuff.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: Shein, these are big causes of uh Easter Abiya.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think this means um, I don't think it means the virtues, but I think it means like steps towards arrias.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Veloyesha Vloisha, Shiminhog Zah Gorm Latara Gdola, a person should not remain unmarried.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: Ram has a lot of that in um Tamatora and like how how to like navigate those areas.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because this uh this minh, meaning the minhog of getting married, right?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Or of not not being married, Gorm Latara Gdola causes great Tara.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little misleading there.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yesera Mikulzos Amru, Yefane Atmo um machal divitorah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: More than all of this, they say turn yourself and your thoughts to Divy Torah, Vyarhib Dato Bukhmah, and expand your mind through Khachma.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I never know what Harchalas Das means uh in different contexts.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh the thoughts of Arayos only overpower a mind free from Kachma.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that in Mishlay five, uh that um it is a hind of of loved ones, whatever that mushrooms is, and Ya'ala Shain.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, same thing.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, da daha yuravuha, her breasts will say you both aes at all times, baha, ba'abasa, tishke tamid.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you should constantly be immersed in her love.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, in other words, there is uh an idea here about like that somehow involvement of your mind and your thoughts in Torah does draw away from the same resources that ordinarily be flowing towards Taiva.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I don't think it's just a matter of like, what are you thinking about?
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because he you know, he does put it in terms of what's occupying your mind, but I think there's an actual like uh draw of energy.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Isaiah?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I was thinking about it like I feel like when a person is involved in a Taiva, then like the thing they want is to just continue like being involved in that, like it feels good, and then is like you know, they're psyching like invested in it, and then as soon as they like apply Khasma to that thing, then it like it doesn't become it's not the same thing anymore.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Now they're like you have to be involved in the Taiva and Khakma, and then like it like it makes it like not fun now.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's interesting, it's not appealing in the way that it it would have been like before though that's interesting.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, um the uh I'm just laughing because um you know I have my I also have a Ninja culinary chat.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, and the the the one line that I I have in all my teaching for them is uh that the purpose of of Torah or a human being or life is to be a truth seeker, you know.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so one of my students was asking to get into a discussion about like how much fiber you should have and like how much others, you know, and then one of them said, like, you know, like uh you know, uh being a truth seeker in food is not fun or something like that, you know.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but like it reminds me of exactly what you said.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: But that that approach is interesting because that's not, I think, what chazal mean about dragon to the base midrash.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I think that is what Michle would say is that like if you try, if you bring your Yitzirhara into the world of Chachma and show it how to satisfy itself through Chachma, like our Pshat of if you want to get revenge, then do it through Chachmah, that will start transforming the way that you relate to the Taiva because part of what allows a Taiva to run free is it Yitzirhara feels like this is an area that the rules of reality don't apply.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing to spoil the the fantasy of like I could just indulge, you know.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so the more you root it in Chachma or channel it through Chachma, then the more you can like mitigate that uh that quality.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, Moshe.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, is that so much of Shaqma, or is it I mean awareness of awareness of reality?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it it it so it's it's I think it's both.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: It the awareness of reality is the foundation, you know, that'd be like a Euros HM in the beginning of Ray Shis Das type awareness.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I think applying Chakma to it takes it from being like this, you know, um super indulgent fantasy escape type thing and makes it into like a concrete real thing that operates based on principles.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that is not going to be too of like yeah, meaning awareness of reality just means like you know, like you can't um you know, there's gonna be consequences here.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: But like you know, like it almost reminds me of um I mean, okay, this is not exactly this is not really Taiva, but like if you watch a movie with my brother, then you have to, you know, he's very good about this, but like you can't ask him about it unless you want to risk ruining your experience of the movie because he's gonna unpack how the thing is made and how it's done, and then at a certain point it just becomes like you can't fully immerse yourself in the in the uh experience.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: So let's say like I'm aware that movies operate based on principles of psychology or whatever, but somehow seeing it dissected like like you know, um uh affects the actual enjoyment.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Or Ryan Moskowitz's example is, you know, again, this is going back to Freud, but like, you know, Freud, if I would oversimplify it, held that all humor ultimately boils down to the sexual or the aggressive.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And Ryan Moskowitz was saying how, like, you know, there are certain things where if you show why a joke is funny, then like you can't fully immerse yourself.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: That joke anymore.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So like I know that that many jokes are aggressive and sexual, but I can still I have the awareness and I can still enjoy it.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: But when you actually go and you you see why it is that you're like where this is coming from in you that you're finding it funny, it it can kill the uh the enjoyment.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh okay, Isaac, what's your uh yeah?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So so you're saying this is specifically for um uh this this is specifically um where you're applying chachma to the specific taiva?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um no i i i'm i'm i'm saying it could tolerate both interpretations.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that chazal mean dragging to the base midrash, meaning involve yourself in learning.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't think they mean what we're saying now, but I do think that we can say in a mishlayc way, apply chachmah to your taiva, your specific taiva that you're saying, yeah.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I have an explanation for the Miri that's I'd say more in line with Khazal where it's you're you're just um seeking chachmah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're you're going to learn chachmah, not specifically about the the taiva.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So just so just like in the in the mushal, where you're you're in this cycle of vengeance with your enemy, and as long as you keep you keep uh engaging in it, you know, you're like, oh I'm gonna do this, and then this is gonna be the last time.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: But then what you know, but then what happens is your enemy comes back even stronger.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then that keeps escalating and escalating.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, that's good.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_04: That's good for the case.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: But when you yeah, but when you break the the cycle by by doing something that's that's like um kind of like that we're acting against the cycle, then um it then it breaks it, but also and then also um and almost like then you're making it so your enemy enemy almost like feels foolish and silly for wanting to continue it.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that the same thing happens with with your tyvas where well as soon as you're not engaged like like engaging in in like reality instead of your cycle of tyvas, then suddenly it's like you know, why did I even want that?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's almost like ridiculous.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I can say from experience, uh, and I've given this advice before, um uh which is that if uh you are on the fence, community, um, if you're on the fence about whether to um like let's say you're feeling really tired or like upset or depressed or or or restless or whatever, and like you have a shear that you usually go to or a chirusa that you that you attend and you're considering not going, always a good idea to tell yourself, I'm gonna go for 10 minutes and then reassess.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because so often what happens is you start and then it changes the whole dynamic because you break the cycle and you get your mind involved in this stuff, and then like it's it's just worth it to give that a try um because it can be so transformative.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Isaac.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I also have an example which is uh every night, or not every night, so some nights before bed, um when Aviva and I are watching TV, yeah.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be late, and we know that we really should go to bed now.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, like I really, really want to watch one more episode.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so what we'll say is I'm gonna I'm gonna go Dovin Marv, and then afterwards we can watch another episode in bed.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, every single time I really mean I'm actually we're actually gonna do that, and every single time I'm like, no, actually, we should just go to bed after I've yeah, once I've already done because it just because I I broke you know broke out of the cycle.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's good.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just one uh I just want to show you this thing also in the re nach miyas.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um he said uh it starts on the other one.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: He says, uh which we don't know who that is.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: So try not to have an enemy, but if you have one, strive to make benefiting him his punishment.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: So that's another expression of the Monsur's Davi N Rab Bag idea.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: And he also has another proverb that he says, um uh oh in the in the footnote, I think.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the footnote 56 says, Oh, mivkar pninim shar hasina, shalu ha kakham bame yis nakim hadam yisono amar shiosif mala hisera batsma.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: So they ask the Khacham, um, what what can you do to take revenge on your enemy?
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, uh uh uh add a virtue to yourself, uh, you know, like be the you know, be the better person.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Best revenge is to not be like that.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's what Marcus really said.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, Isaac, you had another parish?
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so um yeah, so my my parish is yeah, so alternate darkness, sir, which is is um that um it's it's warning the it's warning you against like going to the um too far to the to the opposite extreme with regards to your typos, where you may feel like you know with you know they're telling you to do something, so you want to try to do the opposite.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then because you're yeah, like I said, it's something so then because you're um um because you're continuing to to fight it um in the sense of like d denying it, then um then um it's gonna continue trying to fight you.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: But if when you when you're when you're giving it bread and water, which is just like its needs, yeah, then um then that's then you're able to um resolve things.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's really good.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I I that's what I wanted to say yesterday, and I'm surprised I didn't see anyone say that.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, I think not not that the fact that Khazal says about about Torah like should override or override everything, but uh you know, I I that's a good shot in my opinion, or a good Nister.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um going back to Zraqi, by the way, with the uh the hybrid that um uh Tuchalafar's gank, I just want to say that would really be harming him.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_02: And that's real evil.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, if he's hungry and you don't feed him, so you're depriving him of his physical needs, which is a uh, you know, that's not just.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: But like if you say, let's say you have someone who is you know, again, a human being who who we have some personal beef with, and you say, I'm not gonna tell him uh a good idea, like that's real corruption.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that it's it's just worth noting that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, last thing I want to read really quickly is the Immanuel Haromi, who's a little bit long, but he has a good description.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Umr im Tir Sonaha Raiv Inlo Ma Yokal uh Helkelehu Lakim Im Tami Haku Mai V Huadin Im Tirh Lidavar Mi Hadvarim, any need, not just those.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: Al Tomu Assal Menu Rainlo de Maxorasha Yaksarlo, putting it to Dokkan terms, but nothing but zev Amar kihelmatakose, again, this is our side.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: Is the greatest revenue revenge you could take.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: So he's a combination of two things.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: He'll be pained, but he'll see that he needs you and that he'll see his own loathiness.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: He'll see that you could have taken revenge on him.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that that you've raised yourself up above the uh degenerate Midos and the uh and and being like a kamohu, like him.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: Viewchan Kutzer Sihlo, and he'll discern the uh the deficiency of his own inflict, uh, uh based on your level.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, he'll realize how petty he's being.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, mitzurafisala Yeshalamlach Kumoto Bavurzehmaisvaso, Shitivoski Velo Sitor.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: So this is also Halak to Bidraka.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Vrem is gankin shim rabbu yeta harashu sone at musam, your it's our hate, your essence, um sho haseka, which is your intellect, haqili lacham has kehum, plumer, imtimza yad uh yitzar yitz rakha raevtame alt el tavas kinyanha olam, tasyoso meoso derak shell raivelo taspi no, tosbivlo to malito, mikoshari shall, he who kamos uh kimavis, volo yisba vokol asher taksho has biotimsehu yose raiv, the tame nix of eltavas, rach bakarlacha, a kateh akher.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, this is what uh this is like like uh Isaac saying the Tipik Lo Srachab Hahe Rakim Bilvad.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: I I I mismiss this.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Give him um his necessary needs, Bilvad alone, Asher Efshar Lam would share him nim saim bimat al.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's an allusion to the Morning Vukum, by the way.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: 312.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: All right, so this is uh I'm very glad we we we gave this in the normal Mishlei treatment because we got a lot of nice ideas here.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, uh so bli nedr continue after Pesach.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, yeah, continue after Pesach.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was just thinking what David and get back, so it should work out.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thanks.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.