Latest / Karl and Crew / God’s Good Design for the Church with Jonathan Griffiths & Following Jesus Even When It Hurts with Lina Abujamra

Transcript

God’s Good Design for the Church with Jonathan Griffiths & Following Jesus Even When It Hurts with Lina Abujamra · Karl and Crew

• 0:00
  S1: Broadcasting from Chicago, across North America and beyond. It's Carl
• 0:05
  S1: and crew.
• 0:06
  S2: Come as you are an experienced guide, overcome what seems
• 0:11
  S2: impossible and live as you never imagined.
• 0:14
  S1: Start your morning with a laugh.
• 0:16
  S2: Cold spaghetti's. Great. Okay.
• 0:19
  S3: Okay, I disagree. I guess not. No, certainly it is not. No. Okay, well,
• 0:26
  S3: I'm going back.
• 0:26
  S2: To my bachelor days. I guess I thought cold spaghetti
• 0:29
  S2: was universally loved.
• 0:31
  S4: I've never been known for, like, high levels of coordination.
• 0:34
  S4: That's just. It feels like.
• 0:37
  S2: I've never been known for high levels of coordination.
• 0:42
  S1: Delivering the truth daily.
• 0:44
  S4: If it were possible to have every worldly gain available
• 0:48
  S4: and you're forfeiting your soul. There's no amount of gain
• 0:52
  S4: that would make it worth it.
• 0:53
  S5: Our own way never ever works. Because it's apart from
• 0:56
  S5: the life source, which is God.
• 0:59
  S6: For me, growing up, love was always conditional and can
• 1:02
  S6: be taken from you. Christ's love can't. And he went
• 1:06
  S6: to the cross with my mind and my heart that night.
• 1:10
  S1: Now from the call of Hope Studios, this is Carl
• 1:15
  S1: and Crew.
• 1:16
  S4: From a Non-runner. I have a question for you runners.
• 1:21
  S4: How and why do you do it? Seriously? Okay. How
• 1:28
  S4: and why?
• 1:30
  S3: It feels amazing.
• 1:31
  S5: What it really does, I.
• 1:34
  S3: And that's talking.
• 1:35
  S5: From somebody who used to hate running. My first run
• 1:39
  S5: after I got married, I remember I ran half a
• 1:41
  S5: mile and I collapsed on the ground afterwards and I
• 1:44
  S5: was like, I don't ever want to do this again.
• 1:46
  S4: I, I remember one summer I was a college volleyball
• 1:51
  S4: player and I was transferring schools from one program to another.
• 1:56
  S4: And so one of the A requirements that the coach
• 1:58
  S4: gave us in order to get ready for the season,
• 2:01
  S4: was that we needed to be able to have a
• 2:05
  S4: certain mile time. We needed to be able to run
• 2:07
  S4: a mile in a certain amount of time. Now you're
• 2:10
  S4: going to have to bear with me as you fall out,
• 2:13
  S4: as you listen to this story, because it's a mile,
• 2:17
  S4: and I fully recognize that some of you listening run many, many,
• 2:21
  S4: many miles daily. But although I was an athlete, I
• 2:25
  S4: was a volleyball player. Volleyball players don't necessarily love to run.
• 2:29
  S4: We don't do a lot of running.
• 2:30
  S5: You're in.
• 2:30
  S3: A box.
• 2:32
  S4: We kind of stay. I mean, lots of jumping and
• 2:34
  S4: quick lateral movements, things that will get you out of breath.
• 2:37
  S4: But there's something about running that I just absolutely hated.
• 2:39
  S4: But I wanted to go into this new program for
• 2:42
  S4: this coach, and I wanted to be ready. So I
• 2:45
  S4: asked my younger brother, who was probably maybe 14 at
• 2:51
  S4: the time, 1314, and he was an excellent runner. Gotcha.
• 2:55
  S4: He actually went on to run it at high level
• 2:58
  S4: Division one in college. Very cool. A hurdler and sprinter.
• 3:02
  S4: So I asked him, I said, hey, could you train
• 3:05
  S4: me because I. The idea of running a mile for time.
• 3:09
  S4: I could probably run walk a mile in like 11
• 3:13
  S4: minutes or something.
• 3:14
  S5: Sure.
• 3:14
  S4: And so I needed at at my position in volleyball,
• 3:19
  S4: depending on position, the better, like you were supposed to
• 3:22
  S4: be in better shape if you were like a back
• 3:24
  S4: row specialist.
• 3:25
  S5: Because you have to move around a little more.
• 3:27
  S4: So it was like, okay, for my position, I need
• 3:29
  S4: to be able to run a seven minute, seven minute,
• 3:32
  S4: 32nd mile.
• 3:33
  S5: Yeah.
• 3:34
  S4: And so I said, can you train me to be
• 3:36
  S4: able to do that? And he said, sure, no problem.
• 3:39
  S4: So I remember going out to the local high school
• 3:42
  S4: track and four laps around was all that was needed.
• 3:47
  S4: You would have thought. And he's like literally running backwards
• 3:53
  S4: behind me, trying to keep me motivated and encouraged. And
• 3:57
  S4: he's like trotting backwards as I'm full out. Like dying,
• 4:02
  S4: running forward. And he's like, come on, Ali, don't give up.
• 4:06
  S4: You can do it. I'm six years older. Six years
• 4:09
  S4: older than this is. This was humbling. It's great. A
• 4:12
  S4: new level of humbling. As he's backward running while talking
• 4:16
  S4: to me. Not even breaking a sweat. Not even out
• 4:19
  S4: of breath. Coaching me along. Oh, don't give up. Come on, Ali,
• 4:25
  S4: you can do it. Two more laps. You've got this
• 4:29
  S4: last lap. Come on. And I'm like, ha ha ha! Oh, man.
• 4:36
  S5: Trying not to die.
• 4:38
  S4: After, like, some sessions with him as he kept me going.
• 4:43
  S4: I was able to my best mile time and I will.
• 4:46
  S4: I ran this once and one time only. I was
• 4:50
  S4: able to get myself down my happy self down to
• 4:54
  S4: six minutes and 45 second mile.
• 4:56
  S5: That's very good.
• 4:57
  S4: One time.
• 4:58
  S5: That's.
• 4:59
  S4: It only happened there though. One time.
• 5:01
  S5: That's all you need.
• 5:02
  S4: By the time I went off to college for that
• 5:05
  S4: first time, I regret to tell you, I did not
• 5:09
  S4: make the time when it. On the first try.
• 5:12
  S5: As you needed.
• 5:12
  S4: To. And so here was the requirement. If you did
• 5:15
  S4: not make the time, you were going to have to
• 5:17
  S4: run that mile again every week until you got your time.
• 5:23
  S5: Okay.
• 5:24
  S4: So the first time came and I think I hit
• 5:26
  S4: like 745 and I was like, man, no way. Because
• 5:30
  S4: I had done a 645 at home. Right. But, you know,
• 5:33
  S4: I think that I didn't know how to pace myself
• 5:36
  S4: with the group. My brother wasn't running backwards offering, offering
• 5:39
  S4: encouragement and affirmation. So, so the, the second crack at
• 5:44
  S4: it comes and I'm like, I have got to do this.
• 5:47
  S4: I am not going to come out on this track
• 5:49
  S4: every week and run this thing. Let's just get this
• 5:52
  S4: over with.
• 5:52
  S5: Get it done.
• 5:53
  S4: Get get to the season, get to the volleyball stuff.
• 5:55
  S4: Which is why I'm actually here. So time number two comes. Yeah,
• 6:01
  S4: I really kicked it into high gear and I was
• 6:03
  S4: really proud of myself. I think of the group because
• 6:06
  S4: the best runners knocked it out the first time. So
• 6:09
  S4: the ones back on the track, I was, I think
• 6:13
  S4: either the fastest or the second fastest of the least.
• 6:16
  S5: The.
• 6:16
  S4: Repeats of the team B and that second time I
• 6:21
  S4: hit a 715 mile.
• 6:23
  S5: There you go. That's good.
• 6:24
  S4: See? Clocked it and did not have.
• 6:27
  S5: And I never ran again.
• 6:28
  S4: Do this again. I wanted to give up so badly
• 6:33
  S4: on that mile because my body hurt, my knees hurt,
• 6:37
  S4: my back hurt, everything in me hurt and it's not
• 6:41
  S4: like I had back knee problems. It's just something.
• 6:44
  S5: About hurt at that time.
• 6:45
  S4: Pounding around that track that just it just hurt my
• 6:48
  S4: mind and my knees in every part of me. And
• 6:51
  S4: I wanted to give up. And maybe that's how you
• 6:54
  S4: feel about the church. Thinking about it makes your back
• 6:57
  S4: hurt and your knees hurt and your head hurt because
• 7:00
  S4: church hurts. And that's what you associate with church is
• 7:04
  S4: just how I felt the pain of running that mile
• 7:07
  S4: and wanting to run right off that track and get
• 7:10
  S4: into my car and go home and not come back
• 7:13
  S4: because I didn't want to do it. That's how you
• 7:16
  S4: feel about church, if you're honest. Get in my car,
• 7:18
  S4: go home and do this thing alone. Because the church
• 7:23
  S4: is where people hurt me. And maybe that's how you
• 7:26
  S4: feel coming up. Going to hear from somebody who has
• 7:29
  S4: been there, survived and gone back despite the hurt that
• 7:36
  S4: she experienced. Got Lina Abujamra joining us coming up here
• 7:39
  S4: on Carl and Crew. And if you're a runner, hats
• 7:43
  S4: off to you.
• 7:44
  S6: Right.
• 7:45
  S4: How and why do you do it?
• 7:48
  S1: You're listening to Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 7:51
  S4: Have you ever thought about giving up serious questions? You
• 7:55
  S4: ever thought about giving up on the church? Maybe even
• 7:58
  S4: you've considered walking away from your faith in Christ. You've
• 8:01
  S4: been hurt. You've been maybe even betrayed. You've been disappointed.
• 8:07
  S4: And if you're honest with yourself, there's been the temptation
• 8:11
  S4: to just not keep going with this whole faith walk. Right.
• 8:17
  S4: I've got a special guest joining us this morning, Doctor
• 8:19
  S4: Lina Abujamra. She's a pediatric ER doctor. She is a
• 8:23
  S4: founder of Living with Power Ministries, and she's an author
• 8:27
  S4: of a couple of different books, the one we're featuring today,
• 8:29
  S4: still standing following Jesus, even when it hurts. Lina, have
• 8:33
  S4: you ever had that thought of is it all? Is
• 8:37
  S4: it worth it? Do I stick with it when it
• 8:40
  S4: hurts and when it's hard? I mean, you wrote a
• 8:42
  S4: book about it, so I'm assuming you're honest enough to
• 8:45
  S4: say yes.
• 8:46
  S7: You know, I think I've written about it in every
• 8:48
  S7: book that I've ever written. The concept of wanting to
• 8:51
  S7: quit is so common, and I think the more serious
• 8:54
  S7: you are about following Jesus, the more the temptation is.
• 8:57
  S7: I think the more the spiritual attack and opposition, which
• 9:00
  S7: we know is so real. But I think that the
• 9:03
  S7: higher the stakes are, and particularly in the hidden spaces,
• 9:07
  S7: you know, the Bible talks so much about the fact
• 9:09
  S7: that much of our battle is in the hidden in
• 9:11
  S7: the unseen. And so I think absolutely. And I think
• 9:14
  S7: because it's unseen, it becomes a mind game. And so
• 9:17
  S7: much of the Christian walk is the battle of the mind.
• 9:20
  S7: What do you think about how do you fight it?
• 9:22
  S7: This morning I thought about quitting. Do you see? It's
• 9:25
  S7: happened so much. Yeah. And I think you have to
• 9:27
  S7: become equipped and knowing how to fight that battle so
• 9:30
  S7: that you're in it like the apostle Paul until the
• 9:32
  S7: end and say, I've finished the course and all glory
• 9:34
  S7: to Jesus. So absolutely, if you're listening and you're in
• 9:37
  S7: that space and then you are in similar company.
• 9:40
  S4: So give us a little bit of your own story,
• 9:42
  S4: like the challenges that have caused you to kind of
• 9:45
  S4: wrestle deeply, right?
• 9:47
  S8: Well, you know, I will say I.
• 9:49
  S7: Do not think of myself as a quitter. And most
• 9:51
  S7: people who know me know our ministry wouldn't describe me
• 9:54
  S7: as a quitter. If anything, I've been in it for
• 9:56
  S7: a while. This is, I think, what comes as a
• 9:58
  S7: surprise to people. It's not so much how you look
• 10:00
  S7: on the outside. So I grew up in Beirut. The
• 10:03
  S7: war torn city continues to be in the throes of
• 10:06
  S7: a war now, but I grew up in the midst
• 10:08
  S7: of that. Moved to green Bay, Wisconsin when I was
• 10:10
  S7: in high school and in high school became a doctor.
• 10:13
  S7: So certainly not an easy road. Practiced pediatric emergency medicine.
• 10:17
  S7: Have had a ministry for the past, you know, 12
• 10:20
  S7: years in Lebanon providing relief. But beyond that, even before that,
• 10:24
  S7: and I think probably where the bulk of the battle
• 10:26
  S7: has been is in teaching the Bible and in writing
• 10:29
  S7: about Jesus and kind of doing what a lot of
• 10:32
  S7: people who are in ministry, you know, in the United
• 10:34
  S7: States tend to do, which is to proclaim the name
• 10:36
  S7: of Jesus through teaching the Word of God. And in
• 10:38
  S7: the course of that, one of the battles that I've
• 10:41
  S7: been through is, of course, I've written about fractured faith,
• 10:43
  S7: which came at the hand, you know, a lot of
• 10:45
  S7: hurt at the hand of the local church. But, you know,
• 10:48
  S7: I think, you know, those are all sort of when
• 10:50
  S7: you hear the resume of a Christian, you can be like, wow,
• 10:53
  S7: she's done a lot. She's, you know, she's put in
• 10:55
  S7: the miles, so to speak. And yet I have found
• 10:57
  S7: the most surprising thing in this battle to stay in
• 11:02
  S7: it is that the longer you're in it, the more
• 11:04
  S7: the battle to want to quit is because you kind
• 11:07
  S7: of think like, what's happening? Why am I facing these discouragements?
• 11:11
  S7: Why do people that I think are gonna, you know,
• 11:13
  S7: come through for me continue to disappoint me? Why is
• 11:16
  S7: the Lord not showing up in my prayer life the
• 11:18
  S7: way that I was hoping he would, and what we
• 11:20
  S7: see as the hardest thing or maybe the most, you know,
• 11:24
  S7: the questions that come up about calling are often the
• 11:27
  S7: very tools, the very instruments that God is using to
• 11:30
  S7: cause us to depend on him more deeply and to
• 11:32
  S7: show us that all of these things that we use
• 11:35
  S7: to prop ourselves up are just a mirage. What we
• 11:37
  S7: really need is Jesus himself. And the more we understand that,
• 11:41
  S7: and that only comes by learning it through difficulties. But
• 11:44
  S7: the more we lean on him, the more his grace
• 11:46
  S7: becomes sufficient, the stronger our faith is.
• 11:49
  S4: You know, we mentioned your background as a pediatric E.R. doctor.
• 11:54
  S4: What have you seen as a doctor as far as like,
• 11:57
  S4: how people respond to pain or discomfort as it pertains
• 12:02
  S4: to kind of our Christian walk sometimes or almost always discomfort,
• 12:07
  S4: pain catches us by surprise.
• 12:09
  S7: So there's a lot of people that go to the doctor,
• 12:11
  S7: but the ones that are most prone to listen are
• 12:14
  S7: the sicker they are. The patient is, I have found
• 12:17
  S7: the easiest patients to care for are the ones that
• 12:19
  S7: are truly in a bad place. Very sick. If you're
• 12:23
  S7: a little bit sick, you have a lot of demand.
• 12:25
  S7: You get a lot of. Now I practice telemedicine and
• 12:28
  S7: it's so interesting to me. I get a lot of
• 12:29
  S7: patients with agendas and the bulk of the patients are not.
• 12:32
  S7: But enough now that that you're like, wow, you know,
• 12:35
  S7: you really don't care what the doctor says. You want
• 12:37
  S7: what you think is right. But when you're really sick,
• 12:41
  S7: it doesn't matter. You don't you don't have an opinion
• 12:43
  S7: at that point. My mom is going through cancer treatment
• 12:45
  S7: right now, and the doctor, whatever he tells her, she's
• 12:48
  S7: going to do it. She'll tell him. She walks into
• 12:49
  S7: the office, says, whatever you tell me, I'm going to
• 12:52
  S7: do it. And she is the most faithful, obedient patient
• 12:54
  S7: that you're going to get. She doesn't argue about what
• 12:56
  S7: medicine she needs or how long to take it. She
• 12:58
  S7: just does what she's asked to do. And I think
• 13:01
  S7: this is sort of the spirit that the Lord wants
• 13:03
  S7: us to have, not robots that just like walk through it,
• 13:07
  S7: but as we go through pain, the deeper our pain,
• 13:10
  S7: the more we become unable to fix our problem, the
• 13:13
  S7: more our hearts are desperate for someone who can help
• 13:17
  S7: take care of us. And often I found that the
• 13:20
  S7: people in this world, they're not going to do it
• 13:21
  S7: for us. The only person able, the only power able
• 13:25
  S7: to get us through our difficulties is the power of
• 13:27
  S7: the Lord through the person of Jesus Christ. And His
• 13:30
  S7: word has been, you know, the source of strength in
• 13:32
  S7: my life and that I keep going to. And I
• 13:34
  S7: think this is the freedom that we have to open
• 13:36
  S7: his word and to learn from examples of others. Just
• 13:39
  S7: this morning I read about David, man. He should have
• 13:42
  S7: wanted to quit a million times over. And yet it
• 13:43
  S7: was God's grace that kept him. And it is indeed
• 13:46
  S7: God's grace that keeps us day after day.
• 13:48
  S4: Lena Abujamra with us this morning. Coming up, let's talk
• 13:51
  S4: a little bit more about church hurt. Lena brought that
• 13:54
  S4: up as part of her story. She's written about it.
• 13:57
  S4: Maybe you have turned your back on the church and said,
• 14:00
  S4: I'll just, you know, I'll kind of go this thing alone.
• 14:02
  S4: I'm still with God. But I don't know about those Christians.
• 14:07
  S4: I don't know about his people. How do we deal
• 14:11
  S4: with that coming up?
• 14:13
  S1: He's a sports fanatic with a stat for anything you
• 14:16
  S1: can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew. It's
• 14:20
  S1: curl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 14:23
  S4: Lena Abujamra. She is the author of Still Standing Following
• 14:26
  S4: Jesus Even When It Hurts, among other books, she's also
• 14:29
  S4: founder of Living with Power Ministries. You have been no
• 14:33
  S4: stranger to church hurt to some betrayal. The fact that
• 14:36
  S4: we kind of have a category for it, church hurt
• 14:39
  S4: that as soon as you say that many people have
• 14:42
  S4: a story or a memory that comes up and that
• 14:45
  S4: can tempt us to want to just go it alone,
• 14:49
  S4: we're sticking with God, but we're kind of done with
• 14:51
  S4: his people. Why does that not work?
• 14:53
  S7: Well, this is so interesting because we talk about the
• 14:56
  S7: unseen battle, how Satan wants to bring people down. You know, C.S.
• 14:59
  S7: Lewis wrote a Famous Screwtape Letters, which is sort of
• 15:02
  S7: a display of how Satan would get us. And if
• 15:04
  S7: there is a modern day scenario of how Satan would
• 15:06
  S7: get Christians to quit, it's by causing them to doubt
• 15:10
  S7: the local church. And while the church is not, you know,
• 15:13
  S7: this magical place. In fact, I mean, I, you know, again,
• 15:15
  S7: I did write a book about it because I was
• 15:16
  S7: deeply hurt by a lot that happened in a church that,
• 15:19
  S7: by the way, that now is completely healed. And in fact,
• 15:22
  S7: this week I'm going to be doing a podcast with
• 15:24
  S7: the pastor that the Lord's been so good to bring
• 15:27
  S7: that around. But the very thing you need as a
• 15:30
  S7: Christian to thrive has become a point of deep pain
• 15:34
  S7: for so many people. And there's no better place that
• 15:37
  S7: Satan wants us to be, where we're like alienated from
• 15:39
  S7: other Christians who are meant to encourage us. And I
• 15:41
  S7: think people are starting to understand that. I think a
• 15:44
  S7: decade ago, I was in a different place than I
• 15:47
  S7: am now. But I think as the Lord has healed
• 15:49
  S7: me and helped me to understand, people aren't perfect. You know,
• 15:52
  S7: of course there's going to be sin. The church is
• 15:54
  S7: a place where sinners go. Of course there's going to
• 15:56
  S7: be hurt. Of course there's going to be misunderstanding. But
• 15:58
  S7: I think the Lord is the one who heals us
• 16:00
  S7: in those places. And I think to abandon the very thing,
• 16:04
  S7: the very place that God has given us for healing.
• 16:07
  S7: It's a misunderstanding of how Christ works. And so while
• 16:10
  S7: I do have deep sympathy or empathy or compassion on
• 16:13
  S7: people who've been through church hurt and who are going
• 16:15
  S7: through it now, man, it's hard to find a church
• 16:17
  S7: in in 2026. Sort of like finding a spouse, a
• 16:21
  S7: person to marry. I'm single, you know, my whole life, right?
• 16:23
  S7: It's the same idea. How do you find a church
• 16:24
  S7: that meets all of the boxes? And in an era
• 16:27
  S7: when we can do without it, because we have online
• 16:29
  S7: justifications of why we don't need to go? I think
• 16:32
  S7: there's never been a time that we need the church more.
• 16:34
  S7: You know, the one thing he's promised is to be
• 16:36
  S7: the Great Physician. And if there's anyone that can heal
• 16:38
  S7: us from church hurt, it is Jesus. And so don't
• 16:41
  S7: give up if that's you. And you're wondering, like, am
• 16:43
  S7: I ever going to find a home church? You will.
• 16:45
  S7: I promise you, because I never thought that I would.
• 16:47
  S7: And I have a place now where I feel at home.
• 16:50
  S7: I think the Lord can do that for you, too.
• 16:52
  S7: That's what he's promised to do.
• 16:54
  S4: You talk in the book about the deception of self-sufficiency.
• 16:58
  S4: I mean, if what I know about you, I mean,
• 17:01
  S4: you and just anyone who's listening and hears your testimony,
• 17:06
  S4: there's got to be a temptation to be self-sufficient. I mean,
• 17:09
  S4: you're a doctor. You have a thriving ministry. I mean,
• 17:13
  S4: going it alone is tempting for all of us. But
• 17:16
  S4: there are certain personality types that going alone is even
• 17:18
  S4: going to be a stronger temptation. How do you fight
• 17:21
  S4: against that self-sufficiency? Like, I mean, I kind of got this.
• 17:25
  S7: Well, I think the American spirit, I'll be honest, like,
• 17:28
  S7: even I understand what you're saying about me, but it's
• 17:30
  S7: I'm not unique. I think the American spirit. So anyone
• 17:33
  S7: listening here in the United States. At least I know
• 17:36
  S7: you guys are global, but anyone listening understands that we
• 17:39
  S7: are wired to think that we are strong enough to
• 17:41
  S7: get this done. And if I can't get it done,
• 17:43
  S7: then I can reach what can get it done. You know, like, like, honestly,
• 17:47
  S7: even when we're weak, we still have the sense of,
• 17:49
  S7: I can do this. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps.
• 17:51
  S7: And honestly, this doesn't work. Eventually it fails us because
• 17:55
  S7: it's not meant to work this way. If it was
• 17:57
  S7: meant to work this way, we wouldn't need visas. And
• 17:59
  S7: so the very, you know, thing that is usually our
• 18:02
  S7: deepest point of pain and need is what the Lord
• 18:04
  S7: will use again and again and again to help us
• 18:06
  S7: to understand that it is only as we depend on him.
• 18:09
  S7: The best image is probably Peter. After he denied the
• 18:12
  S7: Lord and he went out fishing, and then Jesus meets
• 18:14
  S7: him for breakfast and. And he says, do you love me?
• 18:17
  S7: And Peter says, yes, I love you, Lord. You know
• 18:18
  S7: I love you three times. And then the Lord Jesus
• 18:21
  S7: says to him, look, when you were young, you used
• 18:23
  S7: to dress yourself. But now as you're getting older, you're
• 18:25
  S7: gonna put out your arms and someone's gonna dress you.
• 18:27
  S7: And I think that is the best picture of the
• 18:29
  S7: Christian life. The older we get in Christ, the more
• 18:32
  S7: dependent we have to be on him. And that comes
• 18:34
  S7: at the cost of self-sufficiency. So if you're in a
• 18:37
  S7: place where you're like, I don't think I can do
• 18:38
  S7: my life. You're in the perfect place for the Spirit
• 18:41
  S7: of God to come in and do what you can't
• 18:43
  S7: do for yourself.
• 18:44
  S4: The book is called Still Standing Following Jesus Even When
• 18:47
  S4: It Hurts also fractured faith. Another one she mentioned finding
• 18:50
  S4: your way back to God in an age of deconstruction.
• 18:53
  S4: Great resources. If you have man, if you are tempted
• 18:57
  S4: to give up on the church or you're struggling with
• 18:59
  S4: your faith, just text power to (800) 555-7898. We will get
• 19:04
  S4: you connected. Just text power to 805 557898.
• 19:10
  S1: He was sharing the gospel on the radio and then
• 19:13
  S1: he got saved. Young thunders in the crew. It's Colin
• 19:18
  S1: crew on Moody radio.
• 19:20
  S9: Got a quick poll for you listening and my team. Okay,
• 19:24
  S9: let me give you the numbers so that you can
• 19:26
  S9: get ready.
• 19:26
  S4: To answer 805, 55, 78, 98. I want to know
• 19:30
  S4: when you have a Zoom meeting or Zoom equivalent? Do
• 19:36
  S4: you turn your camera on or do you keep it off?
• 19:40
  S4: Generally speaking, are you a camera on? You can see me.
• 19:44
  S4: I'm alert looking at you straight in the eye or
• 19:48
  S4: you are camera off. I'm chilling. Go ahead and tell me. (800) 555-7898.
• 19:56
  S4: Camera on or off for those meetings. (800) 555-7898. Young Thunder.
• 20:03
  S5: Why are you making me do workplace confessionals?
• 20:06
  S4: This could be work related. It could be.
• 20:10
  S6: Uh.
• 20:12
  S4: Family calls, I don't. Okay. It's work related.
• 20:16
  S5: Yeah. Uh, no, I'm camera off.
• 20:19
  S4: You're camera off, guys. And you act like I don't
• 20:21
  S4: know this because I'm on the meetings you're on. Right? Exactly.
• 20:23
  S4: I'm asking you, but I.
• 20:25
  S5: Was gonna say, you see? Yes. I'm camera. Off.
• 20:29
  S4: Super di.
• 20:30
  S6: Camera off. You know that.
• 20:32
  S5: Too. Ali.
• 20:35
  S6: Ali.
• 20:36
  S5: I'm a camera off too. Yeah.
• 20:40
  S6: Now I feel like we're probably maybe we shouldn't have
• 20:42
  S6: done this. But you know what I love about Ali?
• 20:44
  S6: And I'm gonna call her out on this one just
• 20:45
  S6: a little bit, though. When Ali's off camera, though, there's
• 20:48
  S6: a beautiful picture of Ali.
• 20:51
  S5: On the screen. She's got like a professional portrait as
• 20:53
  S5: her thumbnail blacked out.
• 20:54
  S6: You know what I mean? Mine's just blacked out, but
• 20:56
  S6: there's Ali in this beautiful photo. I was like, she's there.
• 20:59
  S4: My headshot shows up for me. Hey, you know what
• 21:02
  S4: that I mean? It's it's the way to go because
• 21:04
  S4: then you guarantee you're always at your best.
• 21:08
  S5: You're like, I am here.
• 21:09
  S4: Is if I were to turn the camera on most mornings,
• 21:12
  S4: people would be like, hey, are you the same person
• 21:14
  S4: as that picture?
• 21:16
  S6: She's smiling. That's great. If you just glance, it's like, oh,
• 21:18
  S6: there's Ali.
• 21:19
  S4: Fully made up with a little bit of wind rushing
• 21:21
  S4: through her hair. And what is.
• 21:23
  S6: This.
• 21:24
  S4: Like? Uh, folks, this is after a morning show, so
• 21:28
  S4: you get what you get. It's purposeful though, so it
• 21:31
  S4: looks like from what we are, what's coming in. I think, well,
• 21:36
  S4: it's it might be split mixed.
• 21:39
  S6: Yeah.
• 21:39
  S5: Yeah. Okay. On a camera.
• 21:41
  S4: Camera off was coming in steady. But then some camera on. Okay.
• 21:45
  S4: 5437 gives a little bit of a nuance. Large group off,
• 21:49
  S4: small group on. Okay. That is.
• 21:51
  S6: There you.
• 21:51
  S5: Go. Yes. That's fair.
• 21:52
  S4: That's very important.
• 21:53
  S5: I agree with that.
• 21:54
  S4: I yes. So when we when we gather as a
• 21:57
  S4: large group, I am more likely to have my camera off.
• 22:00
  S4: But when for smaller meetings where it's.
• 22:03
  S6: It's a little more.
• 22:04
  S4: I would say ten or fewer people.
• 22:06
  S5: And for the larger stuff, there's usually like participate, there's
• 22:10
  S5: not participation with everyone who's there, right? When it's a
• 22:13
  S5: small group. Yeah, you're all talking with each other. So yeah,
• 22:16
  S5: I agree.
• 22:17
  S4: So that thank you for that. 5437 yeah, there is
• 22:19
  S4: a difference between the, the, the large meetings and then
• 22:22
  S4: the small meetings. 9743 says camera on or we get
• 22:27
  S4: called out for it.
• 22:28
  S5: Oh the.
• 22:29
  S6: Worst.
• 22:30
  S4: 0345. Off. I'm very camera shy. Afraid. You know there's something.
• 22:35
  S4: It's weird because it's not like you feel self-conscious sitting
• 22:39
  S4: in a room full of people who can see your face.
• 22:42
  S4: But there's something that can feel intimidating about your face
• 22:45
  S4: appearing on camera. That's different from just being in the
• 22:49
  S4: same room. Even though you look the same.
• 22:51
  S5: You know it's because you can see your face.
• 22:53
  S4: It's because what? I can see my face too.
• 22:55
  S5: You can see your own face.
• 22:57
  S4: But you can hide that.
• 22:58
  S5: Oh. Can you? Yeah, yeah.
• 22:59
  S4: Oh, you can hide the ability to see yourself.
• 23:02
  S5: I don't know.
• 23:02
  S6: I think a lot of people are at home too.
• 23:04
  S6: It's part of it. Like what's behind me. They can
• 23:06
  S6: blur the background or the kids or the dog or
• 23:08
  S6: somebody that feels.
• 23:09
  S4: Almost too personal.
• 23:10
  S6: Right? Right.
• 23:11
  S4: Okay. Let's see. 0152 for work, we have to keep
• 23:16
  S4: our camera on. That's fair.
• 23:19
  S6: It is. That's fair.
• 23:21
  S4: I want to be camera off 514.
• 23:24
  S6: I want to be.
• 23:25
  S4: But there's a bot dot, dot, dot. I can't see
• 23:28
  S4: the rest of your text message.
• 23:29
  S5: It says everyone else is on.
• 23:31
  S4: Oh, okay.
• 23:32
  S6: Ah, okay.
• 23:33
  S4: Yeah. There is a little bit of peer pressure there.
• 23:36
  S5: So yeah.
• 23:36
  S4: Sometimes.
• 23:37
  S5: You can't be the only one who has their camera off. I,
• 23:39
  S5: Ali doesn't feel shame when she does that though.
• 23:42
  S6: Wow.
• 23:42
  S5: Because she there have been some moments where I'm like, oh,
• 23:45
  S5: Ali's camera's off too.
• 23:48
  S4: So what, you keep yours off too?
• 23:49
  S6: Yes.
• 23:50
  S5: Yeah, a little permission.
• 23:51
  S6: Yes.
• 23:52
  S4: I wonder if we're going to get an email soon for.
• 23:55
  S6: I know I'm waiting.
• 23:56
  S4: Going forward.
• 23:57
  S5: We'll say we're live.
• 23:58
  S4: After.
• 23:58
  S6: Listening. Listening to this. Our manager. Um.
• 24:02
  S4: There's something about doing something virtually that despite all of
• 24:08
  S4: our best attempts to make it like we are together,
• 24:13
  S4: it's just not the same, right? Because we can do
• 24:16
  S4: things like turn our camera off or multitask and be
• 24:21
  S4: doing other things. There's something about gathering, whether it's for
• 24:24
  S4: a meeting and especially when it's for church, where camera
• 24:29
  S4: off sitting back, kind of not fully participating. It's just
• 24:33
  S4: not the same as showing up. Coming up, the importance
• 24:39
  S4: of just showing up.
• 24:41
  S1: She's a choreographer extraordinaire and everything is Greek to her.
• 24:46
  S1: Super di is in the crew. It's Carl and crew
• 24:50
  S1: on Moody Radio.
• 24:51
  S4: Well, we're going to bring in a special guest this
• 24:54
  S4: morning as we talk about, um, why do we stick
• 24:57
  S4: with the church when maybe it can be tempting to
• 25:01
  S4: just watch online or to go it alone? Jonathan Griffiths
• 25:05
  S4: with us this morning. He serves as chancellor of Heritage
• 25:08
  S4: College and seminary. He is the author of a great
• 25:11
  S4: book called gathered for good. Jonathan. Good morning. Thanks for
• 25:15
  S4: being with us.
• 25:16
  S10: Great to be with you. Thanks for your welcome.
• 25:18
  S4: You know, when we look at some of the reasons
• 25:22
  S4: why people neglect to gather. Covid was a big one,
• 25:27
  S4: but what are some of the deeper reasons? Because we
• 25:29
  S4: know that in Scripture, if we have to be encouraged
• 25:31
  S4: to not forsake gathering, then implied is that there must be,
• 25:37
  S4: and it's not new reasons why we would neglect it.
• 25:40
  S4: Go ahead and speak to that first.
• 25:42
  S10: I think there are all kinds of different reasons that
• 25:45
  S10: can keep us from gathering or stop us gathering. I
• 25:49
  S10: think convenience is one of those big ones. And I think, yeah,
• 25:52
  S10: I think we learned some things in Covid that probably
• 25:55
  S10: didn't help us. We learned that we can connect virtually
• 25:58
  S10: and get some kind of church experience, and it's not
• 26:02
  S10: so disruptive to our weekend and to our kids sports
• 26:05
  S10: and whatever else we might want to be doing. So
• 26:07
  S10: that's one thing. And, and I think that probably hasn't
• 26:10
  S10: helped us overall. I think, you know, you've referenced it.
• 26:14
  S10: There are instances where people have had a really bad
• 26:16
  S10: experience in church and have been really hurt, and it
• 26:19
  S10: can be tough to get over that. I think hurt
• 26:22
  S10: in the context of church is often a very deep
• 26:24
  S10: hurt because it's a place where we don't expect it.
• 26:27
  S10: And when folks have experienced that, I think they can
• 26:30
  S10: back out of church for a very long time. I
• 26:33
  S10: think also, there can be seasons in life where you're
• 26:35
  S10: just not in a good place spiritually, spiritually, you're not flourishing.
• 26:39
  S10: And actually, it can be a time when you want
• 26:41
  S10: to hide away from other Christians. I think sometimes people
• 26:44
  S10: disappear from church because of what's going on in their
• 26:46
  S10: own heart. So I think it can be a multifaceted thing,
• 26:50
  S10: but it's a very real phenomenon that we can be
• 26:53
  S10: drawn away from the gathering that God calls us to do.
• 26:55
  S10: And ultimately, if we know it's spiritually good for us,
• 26:58
  S10: there's going to be a spiritual battle involved in getting
• 27:00
  S10: ourselves there and committing ourselves to the local church. The
• 27:04
  S10: enemy doesn't like it, and there'll be all kinds of, uh,
• 27:07
  S10: tricks he uses to keep us away.
• 27:09
  S4: Absolutely. Jonathan Griffiths with us this morning, president of Heritage
• 27:12
  S4: College and Seminary, also lead pastor. He was lead pastor
• 27:15
  S4: of the Metropolitan Metropolitan Bible Church in Ottawa, Canada. So
• 27:19
  S4: let's build a case for why the local church is
• 27:23
  S4: God's idea.
• 27:25
  S10: Yeah, I think the case for that goes way back
• 27:28
  S10: in the Bible story. And it's really rooted right in
• 27:31
  S10: the Bible story. So we could trace a big theme
• 27:34
  S10: through scripture, which we won't take time to do today,
• 27:37
  S10: of sin, scattering people away from the presence of God
• 27:42
  S10: and God in his grace, gathering his people together. And
• 27:45
  S10: one of the things we see happen in the Old
• 27:47
  S10: Testament is in grace. God gathers the people of Israel
• 27:50
  S10: together in the wilderness as his saved people, and he's
• 27:53
  S10: taking them on a journey to the place of salvation
• 27:56
  S10: to their homeland. And in the church, God has gathered
• 28:00
  S10: us together through the Lord Jesus Christ. Sin has scattered us.
• 28:03
  S10: It's pushed us far away from him. And in Jesus,
• 28:05
  S10: he's called us together to be his family and to
• 28:08
  S10: be his people. And as we get together each Sunday
• 28:11
  S10: and worship God together and hear his living word, and
• 28:14
  S10: we're reminded of the gospel, it's a picture of what
• 28:17
  S10: God has done for us in Christ. And it's a
• 28:20
  S10: little foretaste of where God is taking us, because ultimately
• 28:23
  S10: we're going to be gathered in his presence for all eternity.
• 28:26
  S10: All those who belong to him through faith in Jesus.
• 28:28
  S10: So it's tied to the the big plan of God
• 28:31
  S10: and to the deep themes of the gospel. And so
• 28:34
  S10: that tells us it's really important. It really matters to
• 28:36
  S10: God a great deal.
• 28:38
  S4: Interesting the way you explained sin scattering God's people. Because
• 28:42
  S4: when we think about the impact of sin, I think
• 28:45
  S4: we often think of it as as a pretty personal
• 28:48
  S4: thing that's we know that sin separates us from a
• 28:51
  S4: holy God. So sin puts distance between God and man.
• 28:55
  S4: But the fact that sin puts distance between man and
• 28:58
  S4: and other men and women is an interesting nuance. Dig
• 29:01
  S4: a little deeper there.
• 29:02
  S10: Yeah, it's really interesting. I think if we go back
• 29:04
  S10: to the Garden of Eden, we see this because when
• 29:07
  S10: Adam and Eve rebelled against God and disobey him, we
• 29:10
  S10: find that not only is their relationship with him damaged,
• 29:13
  S10: their relationship with one another is damaged. So the bond
• 29:17
  S10: of intimacy that they enjoyed together in the garden, you know,
• 29:20
  S10: they were naked and they were unashamed. Suddenly, you know,
• 29:23
  S10: they've got hide from each other. Suddenly they're blaming each other.
• 29:26
  S10: Suddenly their dynamic of relationship is not what it was.
• 29:30
  S10: It's clear. It's clearly malfunctioning. At the same time as
• 29:34
  S10: God sends them out of his presence. So, you know,
• 29:37
  S10: sin isolates us from one another and it isolates us
• 29:39
  S10: from God. And when we think about sin in our
• 29:41
  S10: own lives, we know that's true. Because when you sin,
• 29:44
  S10: you know there's a relational component to it and your
• 29:47
  S10: relationships are damaged. You know, you hide your sin from
• 29:49
  S10: other people. You're ashamed of yourself. And you know that
• 29:52
  S10: your fellowship with the Lord is damaged as well. And
• 29:55
  S10: so there's a there's the vertical and there's the horizontal.
• 29:58
  S10: And as we reflect on that in our own lives,
• 30:00
  S10: I think we know full well that it's true.
• 30:02
  S4: Tell me your vantage point as a pastor. What has
• 30:05
  S4: been for you one of the toughest seasons in terms
• 30:08
  S4: of navigating and keeping a church together? I mean, it's
• 30:13
  S4: not your work, obviously, it's the work of the Lord.
• 30:15
  S4: But have you experienced challenges? Was was Covid that for
• 30:19
  S4: you or maybe something else?
• 30:21
  S10: Yeah. I mean, I think every pastor experiences that in
• 30:25
  S10: different measure and in different seasons. Absolutely. And I think
• 30:28
  S10: at the heart of the job of the pastor is
• 30:30
  S10: through the Word of God and through the faithful shepherding
• 30:32
  S10: of the people, actually to be on agenda with God and, and,
• 30:35
  S10: and on message with God gathering a people and holding
• 30:38
  S10: them together in fellowship. I think Covid was a unique
• 30:41
  S10: challenge for that. Covid was really tough because, you know,
• 30:45
  S10: all of the restrictions that we faced in different jurisdictions, uh,
• 30:49
  S10: naturally inhibited our ability to be together, but it generated
• 30:52
  S10: conflict in churches as well as people responded to it
• 30:56
  S10: in different kinds of ways. In our particular church, you know,
• 30:59
  S10: we were spared the worst of it. The Lord was
• 31:01
  S10: really gracious to us. Um, but we felt the strain
• 31:04
  S10: of it and the difficulty of not seeing each other
• 31:08
  S10: for periods of time when we were in very extreme lockdowns.
• 31:12
  S10: That was very, very tough. So so that was a
• 31:15
  S10: hard season. But I think whenever you're in a season
• 31:17
  S10: in a church where there are strains tied to any
• 31:21
  S10: kind of conflict, which which arise from time to time,
• 31:24
  S10: you feel it again. And how do we how do
• 31:26
  S10: we stay together? How do we remember the gospel? How
• 31:28
  S10: do we forgive one another? Um, how do we keep
• 31:31
  S10: rejoicing together in, in God's great salvation in Christ? Yeah.
• 31:35
  S10: There can be, there can be tough seasons.
• 31:37
  S4: Jonathan Griffiths with us this morning, author of gathered for
• 31:40
  S4: Good God's Good Design for the Local Church. How do
• 31:43
  S4: we stay together more coming up here on Carl and crew.
• 31:47
  S1: She was trying to earn her way to God, but
• 31:49
  S1: God showed her she didn't have to. Ali is in
• 31:53
  S1: the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
• 31:57
  S4: Talking about sticking with the church this morning. Even when
• 32:01
  S4: it's hard, even when it's tempting to just turn on
• 32:04
  S4: that live stream. You know, going back to church after
• 32:07
  S4: everything opened up again. My son was he was probably
• 32:12
  S4: when Covid hit, he was maybe seven and he started
• 32:16
  S4: to really enjoy just being at home. And one of
• 32:18
  S4: the things he pushed back when we said, no, we're
• 32:21
  S4: going back to church. We want to gather with God's people.
• 32:24
  S4: And he said, I don't feel like it's that much different.
• 32:27
  S4: And I made him. I made the case for why,
• 32:30
  S4: you know, being connected to the body is important. He goes,
• 32:33
  S4: I don't. But I sit there and maybe I say
• 32:35
  S4: hi to a couple people and then I leave. And
• 32:39
  S4: Jonathan Griffiths with us this morning. You know, I was
• 32:43
  S4: trying to make a case for the connectedness of the
• 32:47
  S4: body of Christ. But even in the best churches, many
• 32:50
  S4: people feel like my son did that. I go and
• 32:54
  S4: I sit there and I listen to somebody speak, and
• 32:57
  S4: I maybe shake a couple of hands, and then I
• 32:59
  S4: leave on my way. So this idea of being super connected,
• 33:03
  S4: even though we know that it's biblical, sometimes it doesn't
• 33:06
  S4: feel like it's the lived out reality. I mean, certainly
• 33:11
  S4: that's not the first time you're hearing this.
• 33:13
  S10: Oh, absolutely. And, you know, I often find when we're
• 33:16
  S10: really grappling with this question, you know, what's the point?
• 33:20
  S10: Why should I go? I'm not sure I really find
• 33:23
  S10: it that helpful. I'm, you know, I'm maybe I'm not
• 33:26
  S10: feeling like others are noticing me and I'm not receiving
• 33:30
  S10: what I what I would like to receive from church.
• 33:32
  S10: Why not just do the online thing? You know, I
• 33:34
  S10: can hear the sermon. I can hear the song. I
• 33:36
  S10: can sing along even. And I think when we're in, in,
• 33:39
  S10: in that kind of a place and having that kind
• 33:41
  S10: of conversation, it's really good actually, to go back to
• 33:45
  S10: a verse that you, you referenced earlier, but is kind
• 33:48
  S10: of the theme verse of the whole discussion. And, you know, that's,
• 33:50
  S10: that's Hebrews ten 2025, where we're reminded not to neglect
• 33:55
  S10: to meet together as is the habit of some, but
• 33:57
  S10: to encourage one another. And all the more as you
• 34:00
  S10: see the day drawing near. And sometimes in those conversations,
• 34:03
  S10: what I want to say, okay, maybe you're not feeling
• 34:05
  S10: like you receive all you want to receive from being there,
• 34:08
  S10: but you have a calling actually to serve others. And and,
• 34:12
  S10: and going to church is not just about receiving. It
• 34:15
  S10: is also giving. And in that, I mean, giving relationally
• 34:18
  S10: and spiritually, that biblical word encourage is a powerful word.
• 34:23
  S10: It really means to speak gospel truth into another person's life,
• 34:27
  S10: to help them to keep going, to keep trusting Jesus
• 34:30
  S10: as the day approaches. And, and I think to someone,
• 34:33
  S10: you know, like the conversation you were playing out maybe
• 34:35
  S10: with your son or someone else, say, okay, you've actually
• 34:38
  S10: got an opportunity to be a spiritual help to someone
• 34:41
  S10: else today and they need you. So even if you
• 34:44
  S10: don't feel like going go for their sake, if you
• 34:46
  S10: don't go for your own. And I think that just
• 34:48
  S10: changes the whole dynamic. And it's a very important part
• 34:50
  S10: of the conversation.
• 34:52
  S4: So you mentioned that part of our the reason that
• 34:54
  S4: we gather is to, to serve others, to encourage one another.
• 35:01
  S4: And as the day draws near, I mean, it's sometimes
• 35:04
  S4: it's easy to isolate when things are calm weather. Personally,
• 35:09
  S4: sometimes we isolate when things are going tough. But I mean,
• 35:12
  S4: when Covid hit, there was this strong desire of we
• 35:16
  S4: don't like this is kind of a scary time. And
• 35:18
  S4: there was a desire to be with other people like
• 35:22
  S4: no other, where it's almost like we had taken for granted.
• 35:25
  S4: And then all of a sudden it was like, no,
• 35:26
  S4: this is this is a hard thing that we're going through,
• 35:29
  S4: and we can't even come together to encourage one another
• 35:32
  S4: that at least for me, it felt like, I don't
• 35:34
  S4: I don't want to be alone, even, I mean, Covid
• 35:37
  S4: or germs are not like we, we really need other people,
• 35:41
  S4: especially when life gets really hard.
• 35:44
  S10: We do, we do. And, you know, the writer of
• 35:46
  S10: Hebrews is reminding us this world is, is a temporary thing.
• 35:50
  S10: And there are spiritual realities that we have to take
• 35:52
  S10: into account. And the big one is, you know, the
• 35:54
  S10: Lord is returning, the time is short and we need
• 35:57
  S10: to be we need to be serious about our walk
• 35:59
  S10: with the Lord. We need to be serious about serving
• 36:01
  S10: others and building up the body of Christ. We need
• 36:03
  S10: to be serious about getting the gospel out and our
• 36:06
  S10: weekly gatherings remind us of that because otherwise, you know,
• 36:09
  S10: we just keep going with all the busyness of life,
• 36:11
  S10: you know, school and sports and, and work and, and
• 36:15
  S10: all the rest of it. And Sunday we stop and
• 36:17
  S10: we say, no, this is the big thing. This is
• 36:18
  S10: the important thing meeting with the people of God, hearing
• 36:21
  S10: the word of God, speaking the gospel, um, having our
• 36:24
  S10: eyes lifted to heavenly realities. And, and we just, we
• 36:28
  S10: need that. And the gathering is our weekly help, our
• 36:30
  S10: weekly encouragement, our weekly reminder.
• 36:33
  S4: Final word here. I want you to speak directly to the,
• 36:36
  S4: the person who's listening this morning. And they've been tempted
• 36:39
  S4: to shut this off because there's a little bit of
• 36:41
  S4: conviction happening because they've been away from the church for
• 36:44
  S4: maybe a short time or a long time. Speak to
• 36:47
  S4: that person today about going back like, what does that
• 36:51
  S4: look like? I've been away a while. Do I just
• 36:53
  S4: walk back in? Do I need to explain myself?
• 36:56
  S10: I don't think you need to explain yourself. I think
• 36:57
  S10: you just need to go. You know, the gathering is
• 37:00
  S10: for for a sinful people who are recipients of the
• 37:03
  S10: grace of God and we and we, we, we go
• 37:06
  S10: as we are, knowing that we need the Lord's grace.
• 37:09
  S10: And if it's a good church, it's going to be
• 37:11
  S10: a place where that grace is extended to you and
• 37:13
  S10: you can extend it to others. Find a church that's
• 37:16
  S10: teaching and preaching the Word of God faithfully. Yeah. Uh, find,
• 37:20
  S10: find a church where, you know, there's going to be
• 37:22
  S10: a welcoming, welcoming, and loving community. Find a church where
• 37:25
  S10: you're going to have an opportunity to serve. And if you're,
• 37:28
  S10: if you're wavering on, you know, should I really go back?
• 37:30
  S10: Do I really need to go? If you've been out
• 37:33
  S10: for a long time, let me ask you this question
• 37:35
  S10: just for personal reflection. How has it gone for you
• 37:38
  S10: spiritually trying to live the Christian life in isolation? Because
• 37:42
  S10: I have never met a single person who have said
• 37:44
  S10: I've really flourished on my own. I've done really well
• 37:46
  S10: in isolation. I don't think it happens.
• 37:48
  S6: Yeah.
• 37:49
  S4: Amen to that. Jonathan Griffiths with us this morning. The
• 37:51
  S4: book is called gathered for Good God's Good Design for
• 37:54
  S4: the Local church. Text gather to 805 557898. Just text
• 38:00
  S4: that one word, gather 805 Five. 78. 98.
• 38:05
  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to cast and crew.
• 38:11
  S4: Something special happens when you go back to church. So
• 38:15
  S4: I want to hear from you this morning. I want
• 38:16
  S4: to open phone lines as we've been talking about some
• 38:19
  S4: of the challenges, sticking with it when you want to bail.
• 38:24
  S5: Mhm. You know, for me, my, my experience with the church,
• 38:29
  S5: I grew up in the church. So I really spent
• 38:31
  S5: like my whole life in church. But a part of
• 38:33
  S5: my story is that even though I was definitely a
• 38:35
  S5: cultural Christian, I didn't have a relationship with Jesus for
• 38:39
  S5: most of my life. And when I went away to college,
• 38:43
  S5: even though I went away to Bible school, I kind
• 38:46
  S5: of took that as an opportunity to get out of church. Mhm.
• 38:51
  S5: You know, I wasn't being looked at by my parents anymore.
• 38:54
  S5: And although it was a requirement at Moody. Uh, it
• 38:58
  S5: was something that I could easily, you know, just not,
• 39:01
  S5: not follow up on not be seen. You know, so
• 39:04
  S5: I'd go with friends every now and then to their churches.
• 39:06
  S5: But I wasn't involved with the church. Uh, and, and
• 39:10
  S5: for a while, as someone who wasn't, who didn't have
• 39:13
  S5: a relationship with Jesus, I kind of felt I thought
• 39:15
  S5: that was freedom. I, I felt like, oh, I'm kind
• 39:17
  S5: of free of the obligation. Yeah. But once I came
• 39:21
  S5: to a genuine relationship with Jesus and my wife and
• 39:26
  S5: I went to church together and got involved in the
• 39:29
  S5: community and, and really lived it out. It's been the
• 39:34
  S5: best thing in the entire world. I, I see church
• 39:38
  S5: a completely different way than I used to when I
• 39:39
  S5: was a kid. When I was a kid, it was just,
• 39:41
  S5: I go and I do the thing. I see my
• 39:43
  S5: friends and sometimes we joke around with each other and
• 39:45
  S5: that's great. But. And then I go home. Uh, but
• 39:48
  S5: now I get to see it from the perspective of
• 39:51
  S5: I get to go live life with my brothers and
• 39:53
  S5: with my sisters and, and I can share my heart
• 39:55
  S5: with them and be helped by them. I can also
• 39:58
  S5: hear their hearts and help them and serve them. And,
• 40:01
  S5: there's a completely different perspective to it that God has transformed.
• 40:05
  S5: And it's, it's life changing.
• 40:06
  S4: Yeah. You know, I want to shift a little bit
• 40:08
  S4: in terms of the question I want I want to
• 40:11
  S4: hear from you because, you know, we had a, we
• 40:13
  S4: have a guest who comes on from time to time.
• 40:14
  S4: And one of the quotes that he said, he said,
• 40:16
  S4: you he's a pastor in the Chicago area. He said,
• 40:19
  S4: you do not want to go through something in your
• 40:22
  S4: life and not be connected to a local church.
• 40:25
  S5: Agreed.
• 40:27
  S4: You think about like the things that you go through,
• 40:31
  S4: you don't know what any day could bring, the kind
• 40:34
  S4: of support or help you might need.
• 40:37
  S6: And be careful, because that's when the enemy will strike
• 40:39
  S6: you the most and try to convince you that your
• 40:42
  S6: shame and that you need to hide away and the
• 40:45
  S6: enemy will fight you the hardest to have you do
• 40:48
  S6: the opposite. Please be careful. My heart pleads. Be careful
• 40:53
  S6: of that.
• 40:54
  S4: So I want to ask you this morning, how has
• 40:57
  S4: the church shown up for you? We've talked a lot
• 40:59
  S4: about some of the challenges this morning. There can be
• 41:03
  S4: church hurt. There can be a sense of duty or obligation.
• 41:08
  S4: But how has the church shown up for you? In
• 41:12
  S4: a way, that boy, it blessed your life. 800 555, 7898.
• 41:18
  S4: How has your local church shown up for you in
• 41:22
  S4: a time where you absolutely needed it? 800 555 7898.
• 41:28
  S4: There's something so powerful about story that I think is
• 41:32
  S4: going to help hold this out in front of people
• 41:35
  S4: in a way that even our experts can't. So your
• 41:39
  S4: story this morning, how has the church shown up for
• 41:42
  S4: you when you needed them the most? 805 557898 phone
• 41:48
  S4: lines wide open. 805 557898.
• 41:53
  S1: It's Carl and Crew on Moody Radio.
• 41:56
  S4: How has your church shown up for you in a
• 41:59
  S4: time where you needed it most. 800 555, 7898 let's
• 42:05
  S4: go to the phones. Denise. First time caller from Indiana.
• 42:09
  S4: Tell us, how did your church show up for you?
• 42:13
  S11: Um, last year I had a surgery that got botched
• 42:17
  S11: and ended up severely septic. I almost died. I was
• 42:21
  S11: in the hospital ICU for 30 days and rehab for
• 42:25
  S11: 26 days. Um, the church stepped up and supported us
• 42:31
  S11: financially because I wasn't working anymore. They prayed for us.
• 42:36
  S11: They put a ramp up at my house so that
• 42:38
  S11: when I got out of the hospital, I could get
• 42:41
  S11: into my house. They just, uh, visited us. They did
• 42:46
  S11: so many things for us.
• 42:48
  S6: Yeah.
• 42:48
  S4: It's beautiful. Denise. First time caller from Newtown, Indiana. Thank
• 42:52
  S4: you so much for your call this morning. Mike from
• 42:55
  S4: first time caller from fishers, Indiana. How did your church
• 42:58
  S4: show up for you when you needed it the most?
• 43:02
  S12: It showed up when I just needed needed. The Lord
• 43:06
  S12: needed the Lord to be there and the people in
• 43:08
  S12: the church.
• 43:10
  S4: Yeah, Mike was. What was going on in your life?
• 43:14
  S12: Well, I was just, uh, people in the church just
• 43:17
  S12: reached out to me, saw that I just wasn't the
• 43:20
  S12: same person I was, had been going to church and
• 43:23
  S12: a gentleman had asked me if everything was going okay
• 43:26
  S12: and told me to go ahead and move. Move to
• 43:30
  S12: the crossroads. Great banquet. Um, it was a time where
• 43:34
  S12: I had one foot on a banana peel, one foot
• 43:37
  S12: on a divorce with an eight month old and a
• 43:40
  S12: year and a half year old. And I just needed
• 43:43
  S12: that time to be away for four days with the Lord.
• 43:47
  S12: It changed my whole life. It changed my relationship with
• 43:50
  S12: my wife, my kids, my family, my friends. Um, and
• 43:54
  S12: it just brought me closer to the Lord. And I'm
• 43:56
  S12: just extremely grateful for the church, the people in it,
• 44:00
  S12: and their willingness to help out and extend and just
• 44:03
  S12: help us all take our next steps with the Lord.
• 44:05
  S4: Wow. Mike, I want to I, so I think I'm
• 44:08
  S4: hearing this correctly. So somebody actually reached out to you
• 44:11
  S4: because they noticed either something was different or that you
• 44:14
  S4: hadn't been around to kind of check in. And that's
• 44:17
  S4: how they stepped up.
• 44:19
  S12: Yes. That's exactly what.
• 44:21
  S13: Happened. Wow.
• 44:21
  S12: Back in the day before Covid, when we used to
• 44:23
  S12: shake hands, the gentleman shook my hand and just didn't
• 44:27
  S12: let go and looked at me and said, we need
• 44:29
  S12: to talk after church. And we did. And that's when
• 44:32
  S12: he invited me to the great banquet and things changed
• 44:34
  S12: my whole life forever.
• 44:35
  S4: Mike, first time caller from fishers, Indiana. That is powerful.
• 44:40
  S5: That's real connection there to to shake a hand, look
• 44:44
  S5: in the eyes and see something's not right.
• 44:46
  S4: And how can I help? Man. Good stuff. Let's go
• 44:49
  S4: to Nicole calling in this morning from Chicago. Nicole, how
• 44:52
  S4: has the church shown up for you when you needed
• 44:54
  S4: them the most?
• 44:57
  S14: Yeah, I was just sharing with them. Like my pastor,
• 45:00
  S14: he said, like, you know, the God, he put Salome
• 45:03
  S14: and family and that's been, you know, my story. And
• 45:06
  S14: I came to the church and I received family. Um,
• 45:10
  S14: I met my husband at the church and then as
• 45:12
  S14: a new mom, uh, we had our first daughter. Like
• 45:16
  S14: there was an older gentleman at the church and he
• 45:18
  S14: reached out to my husband and did prayer calls with
• 45:20
  S14: him about being a father and prayed with him every week.
• 45:24
  S14: Him and another man. And then there are women at
• 45:26
  S14: the church. They would call me, um, all the time,
• 45:29
  S14: pray with me. They did a meal train for us
• 45:32
  S14: to make sure we had food, so we didn't have
• 45:34
  S14: to worry about cooking with, you know, all the early
• 45:37
  S14: mornings with the new baby. Um, they got all the
• 45:40
  S14: things that we needed for the baby diaper bags and
• 45:43
  S14: just so many things. And it's like not having, um, the,
• 45:48
  S14: you know, the full connection of our biological family just
• 45:52
  S14: in the season that we're in. Just following Christ and
• 45:55
  S14: wanting to do something new. Um, just experiencing the support
• 45:59
  S14: and the family of the church was just like really huge.
• 46:02
  S14: And being able to trust God in this new thing
• 46:05
  S14: that we're doing and our family wanting to establish faith
• 46:08
  S14: in a new way and the church really being there. Um,
• 46:12
  S14: it's just every time I think about it, I'm just
• 46:14
  S14: so grateful to have them and to, to get to
• 46:17
  S14: have a family.
• 46:19
  S4: Yeah. Nicole. That's so powerful. From Chicago, you know, a
• 46:24
  S4: meal train from the people of God that will bless
• 46:27
  S4: your life.
• 46:28
  S5: No doubt.
• 46:28
  S4: Because it's so much more than just a casserole.
• 46:32
  S5: Yeah.
• 46:33
  S4: I remember being Nicole. I was a new mom, and
• 46:37
  S4: I was postpartum depression, and I was struggling. And then
• 46:41
  S4: someone would show up with a meal and really look
• 46:45
  S4: me in the eye and see how I was doing,
• 46:48
  S4: and maybe sit down for a minute or two to
• 46:51
  S4: chat and to encourage. That was life giving.
• 46:55
  S5: It's. It's so good to know that somebody sees you.
• 46:59
  S4: What about you? How has the church shown up for
• 47:02
  S4: you when you needed them the most? 805. Five. Five. 78. 98. Oh, Linda.
• 47:08
  S4: Calling in this morning from Florida. How is the church
• 47:10
  S4: shown up for you?
• 47:13
  S15: Good morning. Um, well, my church showed up for me
• 47:20
  S15: paying my car insurance. Just, you know, it wasn't the
• 47:25
  S15: year or anything. It was just one month at a time.
• 47:28
  S15: And it was. I was so grateful for it. I
• 47:30
  S15: paid my car insurance so that I could make it
• 47:34
  S15: to church and be there.
• 47:35
  S13: Yeah.
• 47:36
  S15: And it's a beautiful thing. I, it's not not something
• 47:40
  S15: that I take for granted either because, hey, you know, uh,
• 47:47
  S15: they kept me going. I mean, there's places around here
• 47:51
  S15: it's hard to, you know, they're not close. And I
• 47:55
  S15: if I couldn't drive anywhere, I couldn't make it to church.
• 47:59
  S15: I couldn't make it to the grocery store. I couldn't,
• 48:02
  S15: you know, I mean, my church came up.
• 48:04
  S13: Yeah.
• 48:05
  S15: And showed up for me like that. And and I'm grateful.
• 48:08
  S13: That's amazing. Thank God.
• 48:11
  S4: Yes. Thank God. Thank you so much for your call
• 48:13
  S4: this morning. Oh, Linda, that's a beautiful picture of the
• 48:16
  S4: body of Christ. What do you say? How has the
• 48:19
  S4: church shown up for you when you needed them the most?
• 48:22
  S4: Phone lines open for you 805, five, five, 78, 98.
• 48:26
  S4: Give us a call 805 557898.
• 48:30
  S1: He was running from God, but God's love brought him home.
• 48:34
  S1: Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on
• 48:38
  S1: Moody Radio.
• 48:40
  S4: Great topic this morning as we talk about sticking with it,
• 48:45
  S4: sticking with the church when things are challenging, when there's
• 48:49
  S4: maybe some hurt, some misunderstanding, maybe there's the isolation that
• 48:54
  S4: can come when you just don't feel like going. And
• 48:57
  S4: maybe you want to watch online. Why stick with the church? Well,
• 49:00
  S4: I'm asking you, how is the church shown up for
• 49:03
  S4: you when you needed them the most? 805 557898. Let's
• 49:09
  S4: go to Eli calling in this morning from Amherst, Ohio.
• 49:12
  S4: How has the church shown up for you?
• 49:15
  S16: Hello. Good morning. Um, this is my first time calling. Um,
• 49:20
  S16: last year when, uh, I was, I was struggling with
• 49:24
  S16: some stuff in life. Uh, I ended up having to
• 49:26
  S16: go to court. I had a good brother in the Lord, uh,
• 49:30
  S16: who showed up in my life and wanted to build
• 49:34
  S16: a relationship with me and, uh, help me and guide
• 49:37
  S16: me through this walk. Um, and a little bit after
• 49:42
  S16: this whole process of, you know, going to court, a
• 49:45
  S16: lot of stress and a lot of things in life.
• 49:48
  S16: My wife and I, we found out that we were
• 49:50
  S16: pregnant and it was an unexpected pregnancy. And the church
• 49:56
  S16: ended up embracing us, loving us and caring for us
• 50:01
  S16: and providing for us.
• 50:03
  S13: Yeah.
• 50:03
  S16: And they supported us in many different ways. Uh, one
• 50:07
  S16: of them was through a meal train, which definitely helped
• 50:11
  S16: us a lot.
• 50:12
  S13: Yes.
• 50:12
  S16: Um, and I've had a lot of, uh, good, good
• 50:16
  S16: friends and brothers and sisters in Christ as well. My
• 50:19
  S16: wife that have been there for us and guiding us
• 50:22
  S16: spiritually and just in a day to day basis and
• 50:27
  S16: always checking on us. And we are more than thankful
• 50:30
  S16: and blessed for them.
• 50:32
  S4: Wonderful. Eli, thank you so much for your call this morning.
• 50:34
  S4: First time caller from Amherst, Ohio. How has the church
• 50:38
  S4: shown up for you when you needed them the most? Joel.
• 50:41
  S4: Calling in this morning from hillside, Illinois. Tell me.
• 50:46
  S17: The church was there for me simply by being faithful
• 50:49
  S17: and loyal to God's Spirit. I had stopped going to church.
• 50:53
  S17: I've been to the church that I had been with
• 50:54
  S17: my wife several years back, and my wife and I
• 50:58
  S17: were estranged for three years. We were about three weeks
• 51:01
  S17: away from getting divorced, and I was in another relationship,
• 51:05
  S17: and I was I was lost. I started to visit
• 51:08
  S17: this church, and the people at the church had showed
• 51:10
  S17: me so much love, and the Holy Spirit was speaking
• 51:13
  S17: to them in my life that my life wasn't over
• 51:16
  S17: and that he loved me. And I started to feel, uh,
• 51:22
  S17: very passionate about fixing my marriage again. And I asked
• 51:26
  S17: the Lord to give me a wedge between me and
• 51:28
  S17: this person that I was going to move on with.
• 51:31
  S17: And the Lord brought that about. I almost drowned in
• 51:34
  S17: the ocean. I, uh, I had a dream of my father,
• 51:38
  S17: my pastor and the church had been praying all along Long, faithful,
• 51:44
  S17: faithful to the Lord and help me to get through
• 51:46
  S17: this time. And I called my wife one day. I
• 51:49
  S17: told her I loved her and she said she forgive me,
• 51:52
  S17: and she had been praying for us for the three
• 51:54
  S17: years that I had been gone. And we are now reconciled,
• 51:58
  S17: and we give all the glory to the Lord Jesus
• 51:59
  S17: Christ for that and the church.
• 52:01
  S4: Joel, thank you so much for your call this morning.
• 52:04
  S4: That is so encouraging to hear. You know, it's so
• 52:07
  S4: many different ways that the church can show up. Sometimes
• 52:09
  S4: it's a meal, but walking through those seasons where by
• 52:14
  S4: your own acknowledgment, man, you weren't in a good place
• 52:16
  S4: and the church comes around you and shows love, shows,
• 52:20
  S4: care shows you the love of God. That's there is
• 52:23
  S4: nothing like that because God moves through his people.
• 52:28
  S1: Start your day moving closer to Jesus. You're listening to
• 52:31
  S1: Carl and crew.
• 52:33
  S4: You know we are designed to be together. We're made
• 52:38
  S4: for worship of God. We're made for connection with his
• 52:42
  S4: people as a body of believers. We all have our
• 52:46
  S4: own part. Just like a body that you have your
• 52:48
  S4: fingers which do one thing. You have your your arm
• 52:52
  S4: and your head and your legs. And everybody has every
• 52:55
  S4: part of your body has a different function. Same in
• 52:57
  S4: the body of Christ. We cannot be detached trying to
• 53:00
  S4: do it on our own. How has the church shown
• 53:02
  S4: up for you when you needed them the most? Mary Scout,
• 53:05
  S4: first time caller from a great Lake, Illinois. Tell me,
• 53:09
  S4: how did the church show up for you when you
• 53:10
  S4: needed them most?
• 53:13
  S18: Well, my husband and I moved to an over 55
• 53:15
  S18: community two years ago, and my husband celebrated his 90th
• 53:20
  S18: birthday yesterday. He has dementia and he's wheelchair bound, and
• 53:25
  S18: I am his care person. But the church that we've
• 53:28
  S18: attended for 56 years have been there for us all along.
• 53:33
  S18: There's a care group and they send someone one afternoon
• 53:37
  S18: a week so I can get out and go grocery
• 53:40
  S18: shopping and any other errands that I might need to do.
• 53:45
  S18: And so my church has just always been there for me,
• 53:49
  S18: and I'm so thankful for them and for all that
• 53:52
  S18: they do for my husband and I.
• 53:53
  S13: It's a.
• 53:53
  S4: Beautiful thing. Mary, thank you so much. From right here
• 53:57
  S4: in Illinois. And happy birthday to your hubby. Thank you
• 54:00
  S4: so much for the care and the service you provide
• 54:03
  S4: for him as unto the Lord. What's your story as
• 54:07
  S4: the church shown up for you when you needed them
• 54:09
  S4: the most? I kind of kicked this off with a
• 54:11
  S4: quote from a local pastor who's been on with us
• 54:14
  S4: quite a few times. He said, you don't want to
• 54:16
  S4: go through something in life detached from the local church.
• 54:20
  S5: You sure don't.
• 54:21
  S4: Who? Who do you call? I mean, you have friends.
• 54:25
  S4: Does someone have to be a believer to to make
• 54:28
  S4: a lasagna for you? No, no.
• 54:30
  S5: But they do have to be a believer to give
• 54:32
  S5: you the hope in Christ.
• 54:33
  S13: Yeah.
• 54:34
  S4: That's much more than a lasagna when you've got a
• 54:37
  S4: follower of Jesus Christ preparing it for you, delivering it
• 54:40
  S4: for you, and praying for you as they see you
• 54:43
  S4: through a hard, hard season. So let this be the encouragement.
• 54:47
  S4: If you've been disconnected from the church, go back. I mean,
• 54:51
  S4: it really is that simple.
• 54:53
  S5: Just it is.
• 54:54
  S4: Go back.
• 54:55
  S5: Go back.
• 54:55
  S1: A basketball mom who's mastered the dad joke. Ali is
• 55:00
  S1: in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody radio.
• 55:05
  S13: Well, when we think about.
• 55:06
  S4: God's will for our life. Your life, my life. You know,
• 55:10
  S4: you've heard the phrase sometimes used as kind of a
• 55:13
  S4: shortened mission statement for a church. Love God, love people.
• 55:17
  S4: Sounds simplistic, but really, everything pretty much hinges on those
• 55:22
  S4: two things that we love the Lord your God with
• 55:24
  S4: your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor
• 55:26
  S4: as yourself. The loving your neighbor as yourself part can
• 55:30
  S4: get pretty difficult. Special guests joining us right now. Chip Ingram.
• 55:35
  S4: Sometimes loving people. Okay, let's not say sometimes pretty much
• 55:39
  S4: all the time loving people is really, really hard to do,
• 55:43
  S4: am I right?
• 55:44
  S19: I think you're really right. And it doesn't matter whether
• 55:47
  S19: it's a roommate or someone you're married to, or young
• 55:50
  S19: kids or adult kids, or those who are on the
• 55:52
  S19: other side of the political arena or the gender arena.
• 55:57
  S19: We're living in such a world where hostility and division
• 56:01
  S19: and judgment. And, you know, everyone tells us how we're
• 56:05
  S19: all being conned by the algorithms. If there's ever a
• 56:08
  S19: time to model the most important thing. I mean, the
• 56:14
  S19: litmus test of every follower of Jesus is not how
• 56:17
  S19: much Bible we know, or even how much impact we're making.
• 56:21
  S19: If we don't love God and we're not loving our
• 56:24
  S19: neighbor as ourself, then if Jesus is giving out grades,
• 56:29
  S19: you don't do those two things. You get an F. And, uh,
• 56:33
  S19: so his heart, I mean, his last prayer was all
• 56:37
  S19: about us loving one another.
• 56:40
  S4: Uh. Chip Ingram is our guest right now. He's got
• 56:42
  S4: a title out I Choose Love How to Love Your
• 56:44
  S4: Neighbor as Yourself. Chip is a pastor, author, teacher for
• 56:47
  S4: more than 30 years. He's the CEO and teaching pastor
• 56:50
  S4: of living on the edge. You know, your book challenges
• 56:54
  S4: the popular idea that love is something that happens to us.
• 56:57
  S4: We think about falling in love. Maybe it's something that
• 57:00
  S4: we think we don't really have much control over, but
• 57:03
  S4: explain the premise that love is something we actually choose
• 57:06
  S4: to experience even when we don't feel it.
• 57:09
  S19: Well, we're all a product at some degree of our culture.
• 57:12
  S19: And in the last couple hundred years, I mean, love
• 57:15
  S19: has gone from this reality and this choice of putting
• 57:19
  S19: others first and making sacrifice to romance and how I
• 57:24
  S19: feel and is that special person coming around. And don't
• 57:26
  S19: get me wrong, I mean, romantic love is wonderful. And
• 57:30
  S19: early in the book, you know, I quoted, I mean,
• 57:32
  S19: some of the popular songs and, you know, the hallmark
• 57:36
  S19: movies and just the absolute billions and billions of dollars
• 57:40
  S19: that has created a world where people are desperately waiting
• 57:44
  S19: for that wonderful, perfect person to come into their life.
• 57:47
  S19: And often when that happens and it doesn't work for
• 57:49
  S19: very long, we look for the next one. And there's
• 57:52
  S19: a foundational in the New Testament, there's at least four words.
• 57:56
  S19: And in the ancient Greek, likely five for love. And
• 57:59
  S19: the contrast for us is that it's, you know, I
• 58:01
  S19: love pizza and I love God. And we use the
• 58:04
  S19: same word, right? And so, you know, there's family love,
• 58:07
  S19: there's romantic love, there's erotic or sexual love. And then
• 58:11
  S19: the New Testament talks about agape love. It's God's love.
• 58:14
  S19: And when you have that love as the foundation, it's
• 58:17
  S19: a willful, volitional, putting others first, regardless of how you feel,
• 58:22
  S19: love that that builds great family, love that builds friendship, love.
• 58:27
  S19: And that's the basis of the kind of wonderful romantic
• 58:31
  S19: love that God wants. That's not just based on her
• 58:34
  S19: feelings going up and down, or whether we gained £25
• 58:37
  S19: over the years.
• 58:37
  S13: Yeah.
• 58:38
  S4: You've mentioned a framework in your book, a four part
• 58:41
  S4: framework for biblical love. Can you go over that briefly?
• 58:45
  S19: It's really rooted in Philippians chapter two. And the reason
• 58:48
  S19: I talk about division is that there was external pressure
• 58:51
  S19: that was creating problems for this little church that Paul loved.
• 58:55
  S19: And there was internal division. And so he took the
• 58:58
  S19: very life of Jesus. And he talks about how Jesus gives.
• 59:01
  S19: He was the model and then how Jesus goes beyond giving,
• 59:05
  S19: and he actually becomes a servant, the Lord of the universe.
• 59:08
  S19: Great theological passage humbles himself to serve even to the
• 59:12
  S19: point of a slave. And then he obeys. He's willing
• 59:16
  S19: to actually die on a cross. He obeys. And, you know,
• 59:19
  S19: sometimes we forget he did not want to go humanly.
• 59:22
  S19: He was fully man. God, if there's any father, any
• 59:25
  S19: other way can can we come up with a plan
• 59:27
  S19: B nevertheless, not my will. And then he. He just
• 59:31
  S19: cares and gives examples of that. And when we begin
• 59:35
  S19: to think about love that says, I'm going to show
• 59:39
  S19: up at work and in my marriage or in my
• 59:41
  S19: parenting or with my friends or roommate, I'm going to
• 59:44
  S19: be a giver. My eyes are how do I help?
• 59:46
  S19: I'm going to be a servant. I'm going to see.
• 59:49
  S19: I talk about a I am second mindset and then
• 59:52
  S19: I'm going to, oh gosh, it just kills me. I'm
• 59:56
  S19: going to do what God calls me to do, whether
• 59:58
  S19: I feel like it or not. Obedience. And then you
• 1:00:01
  S19: care when that becomes when we talk about a process
• 1:00:04
  S19: and how to do that in the book and how
• 1:00:06
  S19: to go into training it, it is amazing. Relationships get transformed.
• 1:00:12
  S19: We're doing life Jesus way. We're, we're following him in
• 1:00:15
  S19: that path. And God uses that in a great way.
• 1:00:18
  S19: He heals relationships. And the byproduct is those things that
• 1:00:22
  S19: we want, you know, connection, joy and well beyond just
• 1:00:26
  S19: our romance. But it certainly impacts that.
• 1:00:29
  S4: Chipping from our guest pastor author, the book we're talking
• 1:00:32
  S4: about today. I choose Love How to Love Your Neighbor
• 1:00:34
  S4: as Yourself. Coming up, it's come up a couple of
• 1:00:36
  S4: times already in our conversation, our current divisive culture, even
• 1:00:41
  S4: within the church, where divisions politically of what people think
• 1:00:45
  S4: about certain issues has caused a lack of love among Christians,
• 1:00:50
  S4: a lack of unity. How do we bridge that divide
• 1:00:53
  S4: when people engage in person to person, but especially on
• 1:00:57
  S4: social media, in ways that call into question, do we
• 1:01:00
  S4: love each other at all, even in Christ? Coming up.
• 1:01:05
  S1: Breaking chains and running free. You're listening to cast and crew.
• 1:01:10
  S4: Well, if you spend much time on Facebook or Instagram,
• 1:01:14
  S4: you will notice that you have many friends who probably
• 1:01:18
  S4: think differently than you on certain issues, maybe politically. And
• 1:01:22
  S4: what's happened is there's not a lot of love happening
• 1:01:25
  S4: on Facebook between people who don't agree with each other.
• 1:01:28
  S4: Chip Ingram our guest right now. You know, I regularly
• 1:01:30
  S4: see things where people will say, if you feel this
• 1:01:33
  S4: way or if you follow this person or if you
• 1:01:36
  S4: believe this, go ahead and unfollow me. We can't be
• 1:01:39
  S4: friends anymore. Maybe not in so many words, but sometimes
• 1:01:42
  S4: that direct where there's this idea that I am so
• 1:01:45
  S4: polar opposite in terms of how I see things right now.
• 1:01:49
  S4: Even though we are fellow believers, we really can't be friends.
• 1:01:53
  S4: How do we address this division within the church, let
• 1:01:57
  S4: alone what's going on in the world?
• 1:01:58
  S19: Well, first of all, great observation. It's true and it's tragic.
• 1:02:03
  S19: And I would just say that these issues aren't new.
• 1:02:05
  S19: And if you can imagine being a Christian in the
• 1:02:09
  S19: first century, different Christians from different backgrounds, you're a Jew
• 1:02:12
  S19: or Gentile, a Samaritan, different cultural issues. How do you
• 1:02:16
  S19: feel about Caesar? What about the political issues? Jews who
• 1:02:19
  S19: think we should overthrow the government, Jews who think we
• 1:02:21
  S19: should be passive. I mean, all the same kind of
• 1:02:24
  S19: issues politically. issues around women, issues around all kinds of
• 1:02:29
  S19: things were at the heart. And what the early church
• 1:02:33
  S19: did was they took seriously the commands of Jesus and
• 1:02:38
  S19: the relationship with Jesus in obedience to him. To follow
• 1:02:42
  S19: his path and treat people that way was more important
• 1:02:46
  S19: than their view of Rome, than their view of women,
• 1:02:49
  S19: than their view of children, than their view of their
• 1:02:52
  S19: cultural background. And they chose to, rather than be judgmental,
• 1:02:56
  S19: to actually listen, to say that what we have in Christ,
• 1:03:00
  S19: the big agenda, is not our secondary agendas. As important
• 1:03:05
  S19: as some of the moral issues are as important as
• 1:03:07
  S19: some of the national issues are. All those have to
• 1:03:10
  S19: fly under the flag of I love God, I love
• 1:03:14
  S19: my brothers and sisters. I. As far as it depends
• 1:03:17
  S19: on me, I'll be at peace with all men. I
• 1:03:19
  S19: will not let anything come out of my mouth that
• 1:03:22
  S19: Jesus would say, that's not loving, that's not kind. The
• 1:03:27
  S19: judgmental perspective of basically on this political party first, and
• 1:03:33
  S19: I'm a Christian. This is my view of Gaza or Israel. Oh,
• 1:03:37
  S19: and then I'm a Christian. This is my view of
• 1:03:39
  S19: what the government should do or isn't doing. And by
• 1:03:42
  S19: the way, I'm a Christian. That has to get flipped
• 1:03:45
  S19: completely upside down and say, as fellow brothers and sisters,
• 1:03:48
  S19: let's talk. Let's be open, let's model. We may agree
• 1:03:52
  S19: to disagree, but lost people are not seeing the love
• 1:03:55
  S19: of Christ because of our division found people are not
• 1:03:59
  S19: maturing their anger and and and their lack of compassion
• 1:04:03
  S19: and kindness and the lack of truth. We're going to
• 1:04:07
  S19: live in a world that's I mean, I hear every
• 1:04:09
  S19: single day about the impact of AI Ali. God's wisdom
• 1:04:13
  S19: is going to be the most important thing Christians can follow.
• 1:04:17
  S19: And we're living in a world where knowledge and information
• 1:04:20
  S19: is at the touch of AI. Tell me what the
• 1:04:23
  S19: last hundred songs were tell me what three things I
• 1:04:26
  S19: need to do if I'm going to fix my marriage. AI,
• 1:04:29
  S19: I feel lonely. What do you want me to do?
• 1:04:32
  S19: That kind of informational connection and learning is going to
• 1:04:36
  S19: take Christians farther and farther away from the most precious thing,
• 1:04:40
  S19: the wisdom of God, that leads to other centered relationships,
• 1:04:44
  S19: empowered by the spirit that set the early church apart.
• 1:04:48
  S19: Any movement of God is when people have been willing
• 1:04:51
  S19: to lay down secondary issues and say, I care about you.
• 1:04:56
  S19: I will be a listener. Whatever God shows me obedience
• 1:04:59
  S19: I will do. My role, first and foremost is to
• 1:05:02
  S19: be a servant. I like to talk about Ali. It's
• 1:05:06
  S19: really hard, by the way. In fact, it's impossible on
• 1:05:08
  S19: our own.
• 1:05:09
  S6: Yes.
• 1:05:09
  S19: And this this is the Holy Spirit using the Word
• 1:05:11
  S19: of God by the power of God to change us.
• 1:05:14
  S19: And it's what I call the platinum rule. I mean,
• 1:05:16
  S19: the Golden Rule. A lot of other religions, I mean,
• 1:05:19
  S19: Jesus stated it, do unto others as you would have
• 1:05:21
  S19: them do unto you. But really Jesus modeled. And the
• 1:05:25
  S19: Apostle Paul teaches us what I call the Platinum rule
• 1:05:28
  S19: do unto others as God has already done unto you.
• 1:05:32
  S19: And we're living in a day where we wait. Well,
• 1:05:34
  S19: they did that to me, so I'm not going to
• 1:05:36
  S19: do that to them, or they did that to me.
• 1:05:38
  S19: So I'll do it back to them. And love breaks that.
• 1:05:42
  S19: Love never fails. It's powerful. And in this book I'm called,
• 1:05:46
  S19: I'm asking people, would you be willing to choose love,
• 1:05:51
  S19: to take some steps to obey, to, to walk in
• 1:05:54
  S19: a way that's counter-intuitive to all that's around you. It
• 1:05:58
  S19: causes breakthrough, causes revolutions to occur.
• 1:06:01
  S4: You know, and it starts with we know that we
• 1:06:04
  S4: can only love because he first loved us. So understanding
• 1:06:08
  S4: how you are loved by God has to be at
• 1:06:11
  S4: the forefront of this, right? Because otherwise our attempts to
• 1:06:14
  S4: love other people are going to be pretty hollow.
• 1:06:17
  S19: I don't think there's anything more important than what you
• 1:06:19
  S19: just said if people don't get anything else. So much
• 1:06:23
  S19: of the rancor, so much of the judging other people,
• 1:06:26
  S19: is these deep levels of insecurity and are longing to
• 1:06:30
  S19: make life work out our way. And that freedom can
• 1:06:33
  S19: only come when we grasp the height and depth and
• 1:06:37
  S19: length and breadth, and know that we are secure in Christ,
• 1:06:40
  S19: that we are deeply loved, that we're valued, that we're wanted,
• 1:06:44
  S19: that we've been chosen, that we've been sealed, that we're
• 1:06:46
  S19: made for more than just this little thing called life.
• 1:06:49
  S19: We're made for eternity. So we don't have to guard
• 1:06:52
  S19: and protect and defend and lash out. And, uh, that's
• 1:06:57
  S19: part of what I do in the book is talk
• 1:06:59
  S19: about how do you learn to experience the love of God?
• 1:07:04
  S19: Because you can't give away what you don't have.
• 1:07:07
  S4: Chip Ingram, our guest. He's the author of I Choose Love.
• 1:07:10
  S4: Just text chip to 800 555 7898 for more on
• 1:07:15
  S4: this book. Text Chip to (800) 555-7898.