Latest / Incredible Mind / The Neuroscience of Musical Narratives: Itamar Jalon
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- speaker-1: You were made for creativity, learning, problem solving, and of course, action. On the Incredible Mind podcast, you'll hear from neuroscientists, psychologists, doctors, artists, and others, whose work expands our understanding of how the brain works, where things can go wrong, and what simple everyday steps you can take to make the most of the unique intelligence you were born with. The incredible mind I'm talking about is yours. How are music and imagination linked? Is it possible to transmit images and even stories through music? In today's episode, The Neuroscience of Musical Narrative, my guest Edamar Jalon, shares the fascinating research happening at Princeton University's Music Cognition Lab, part of the Neuroscience Institute. If you like brain science and creativity, keep listening. And if you like what you hear, please subscribe. Let's get started. All right, well, welcome everyone back to Incredible Mind. Today I'm speaking with Edamar Jalong, a postdoc researcher at Princeton University's Neuroscience Institute. We are here at the Princeton University campus doing this interview today, which makes it a special episode as well. Edamar just published a really fascinating research article. About the stories that we imagine in our minds when we're listening to music. And how not only was Edamar able to see these stories written as neural patterns in people's brains using MRIs, they were also able to see a consistent neural pattern of stories in the minds of multiple listeners to the same piece of music. Are you ready? I know it sounds really interesting. So welcome, Edamar. First of all, I wanted to know. speaker-0: Thank you so much. speaker-1: How you came to this focus on music and imagination and stories or narrative? speaker-0: I really lucked into this work and I'm very thankful for it. This work is mostly led by Professor Lisa Margulis here at Princeton. She's been doing really incredible work on the behavioral aspect of it. I think it started when people started telling telling her anecdotally that they imagine these stories when they listen to music. And she thought it was odd and every person that hears about it thinks that it's kind of odd. But she was somehow convinced to start seeing what these stories were. After studying them for a while, she found out That people tend to imagine very similar things. So not only are people able to imagine really complex stories when they listen to music, but they tend to imagine the same things. In the musical excerpts that we used in this study, for instance, we had around seventy percent of participants imagine roughly a similar or the same story to each of these excerpts, which I think is mind blowing. You hear instrumental music and independently without talking about it, seventy percent of the people who listen to it imagine these forest creatures emerging or mm two knights fighting with swords in front of a castle or a chase or someone walking down an old time street in black and white or music has this semantic content that is really shared among ⁓ individuals. speaker-1: Now when you describe the woodland animals and the fight and the street, is that the same song or the speaker-0: No, different song. speaker-1: Different songs. Okay. I actually got a chance to experience the Woodland Creatures song at a presentation that Edamar did. He played the music and had us imagine and then he showed us some pictures and I just laughed out loud because I completely envisioned the woodland creatures frolicking in a forest and there's there was the picture. And I was really surprised because in some ways it's humbling that we think we're generating these imaginations in our minds, but actually We are receiving them from the music itself. speaker-0: Yeah, it's incredible. And this demonstration, whenever you reveal the thing and people notice that they've really thought of the same thing as everyone else in the audience, everyone starts laughing. Which I've never had people laugh with my research before and it's kind of a new experience. speaker-1: It was a great experience. You were brought into this concept through your lab. speaker-0: Yeah, so I was I was brought into this because of experience that I've had with analyzing brain data, MRI data. I was brought into this project which has already been initiated by ⁓ Jamal Williams in the lab, who then had to leave. I was brought in to finish it up and analyze it with a big team of other researchers. First I didn't even believe the effect would be so strong. And when I started looking at the behavioral data, I was completely bought in. And then the brain aspect of it also it's such a weird thing that it was really cool to see what the limits of this shared meaning making where they are. speaker-1: So you took volunteers who were interested in doing speaker-0: So we took undergrads from Princeton University. No musical training or you know varying degrees of musical training, but no musical training is required. We do it mostly with instrumental music, just because when there's lyrics, it gives you something else to think about. Right. These participants came in to our MRI center and they listened to ten musical excerpts. They were given the instruction of listening to the music as if it's telling them a story. With each of them, they listened to the music and then they imagine their story. They didn't tell us anything. The music stopped and we then asked them to recap their story, to tell us what they imagined while the music was playing. And they did that in their own words. And then these are clips that we used in a different study before. So we already had participant responses from previous studies. So we brought them in on a second day. We didn't tell them anything about the music or that it's related, and we just played them the short stories that we call these consensus narratives. So these are the aggregates of what people seem to imagine on average when listening to these. So we just told them these stories and the scanner and no music on that day. And some people did the first day with music and others did the first day with speech. The first thing that interested us is whether people in the MRI scanner still imagine the same stories as everyone else. Right. So we checked that in two ways. One of them is just checking manually whether what you're telling me fits a criteria of does this story qualify or not. So if you didn't imagine particularly I don't know. Not exactly forest creatures emerging, but some other kind of animal or something in the sunrise in a country setting or something. That's close enough. We don't expect people to have the exact same mental image, but to have something that shares its essence. So that's a manual thing. And then the second thing we wanted to check was how specific were these stories? Because you could argue every song can make you think of forest creatures. There's nothing unique about this story. So we also check the specificity. We're scientists, we have to make sure. We also compared the stories that each participant told us to either its matched consensus or any other. And we also saw, you know, significant specificity. Each participant story could be matched to its counterpart group level story. speaker-1: Right, right, the consensus version of the story. But then when these participants had to listen to a a story told, what did that do? How did that help you? Having them listen to a spoken story and then repeating it. speaker-0: So basically the idea is that there's a bunch of ways in which we can create mental content. Things can seemingly arise spontaneously, or you can see something and it can make you think of something, or you can hear something it can make you think of something. So what we wanted to do was to generate ideally similar mental content using music and using words. Okay. And to see whether it seems like we're actually generating something that two people's brains are represented in a similar way. And speaker-1: ⁓ and are you looking at the MRI results to look at the similarity? Exactly. speaker-0: And this is where the brain data comes in. We scanned these brains in an MRI scanner using functional scans, which basically we get a snapshot every singer's. So we had the brain data for all of these different things. And first we wanted to see what was shared within a group, within condition. Is there a specific way that everyone's brains represents song one versus all the other songs? And we did that, and we saw that the relevant parts of the brain seemed to be mostly around the auditory cortex. speaker-1: Makes sense? speaker-0: Yeah. Makes sense, but also we're doing neural patterns and not just fast activations. So usually in these brain studies of auditory stimuli, you do things that are really coupled to the stimulus. So is there something in the brain that is really tracking the amplitude of the sound or the pitch or something? Yeah. So really fast changing properties of the stimulus. And here we do these temporally aggregated neural patterns. So we take your brain response during a full minute. We average that, we do some statistical hand waving to make sure that it matches all the others. But in essence, we compare aggregate brand representations over a full minute. So the fact that we have some auditory cortex representations here is actually not fully trivial because this is not just is the auditory cortex active, it's is it encoding this song in a different way across the full minute than another song? speaker-1: ⁓ okay. Yeah. Now neural patterns is a very fundamental concept to understand in neuroscience, but it can take a little bit of explaining to understand what is a neural pattern and how is it measured. So to do it. speaker-0: Yeah, so it's just it's a term that can mean several things. Basically we have neuron-level electrochemical responses in the brain. And in humans we never record these very directly, or it's very rare that we record something that is really close to this. We record all sorts of correlates and echoes of it. Sometimes I use intracranial electrodes. These are electrodes placed directly on the cortex, directly on the brain in patients. Got it. And even there, we're not doing single cells, we're aggregating over thousands or millions of neurons at once. If we do EEG, then we're getting echoes of this activity as it radiates through meninges, skull, skin, hair, and so on. If we do functional MRIs, then we track slow changes in blood oxygenation levels over time. Yeah. Yeah. So we're doing correlates of neurons. We're not directly measuring neurons most of the time. speaker-1: Bold signal. speaker-0: We're interested in how the brain represents things. Is there some sort of a signature of representing a concept or a thought or an idea or whatnot? There used to be a fairly simplistic view that is the easiest to explain, which was if you know 10,000 concepts in the world, which you probably know more, but yeah. You should have 10,000 cells and each of them will fire whenever you see or think of that concept. You would have a dog neuron, and in order to think of dog, you need that neuron to fire. Yeah, this is sort of a straw man. speaker-1: This is the simple version. speaker-0: Situation. But yeah, we kind of know now that representations are way more distributed over many neurons, potentially many regions, many modalities, all these things. And we can think of these patterns that are aggregated in space and in time as some level of representation. So in our case, neural patterns in this context are a pattern of activation in a few points. So we call them voxels, they're 3D pixels in our MRI images. that we average over time. We can take these patterns of how a small piece of the brain over time represents song one versus song two versus song five, for instance. speaker-1: So the neural pattern, first of all, we have billions of neurons in our brains, right? Potentially. speaker-0: I don't remember what the count is fully, but yeah. speaker-1: There's not a set count yet. That is just how many neurons and let alone neural pathways we have, which is an even greater, greater number. We obviously can't measure one neuron to one neuron when there's so many we can't even give a final average count of how many neurons a human brain has. However, when neural patterns happen, they may activate different sets of neurons in different areas of the brain at the same time. And that visual distribution of activity in different areas of the brain, that is the neural pattern. Is that could that a neural pattern? However, when you think about your experience of anything in your day-to-day, it's usually not just my eyes see dog, right? So you may smell the dog, you may feel the dog that it can come to get petted. There's all those different sensory ⁓ inputs that you're getting that also create individual. speaker-0: This could be a neural pattern. speaker-1: They're all patterns and work together as almost like an orchestra to construct in your mind this sense of what a dog is. And then you're also act maybe retrieving memories of other dogs. You have meaning. If a dog's bit you, maybe you're afraid of a dog, or if you had a beloved family dog, maybe you just see happiness when you see a dog. There's all these multiple dynamics of meaning and input that are coming in just from one experience. And that's why it's not such a simple thing. To understand, but at the same time, we're doing it all the time. Yeah. speaker-0: So you really touched on a thing here, which is the closer you wanna get to complex, real world subjective experience, the harder it's gonna get because you have all of these levels of ⁓ degrees of freedom, right? Of you might be lovingly remembering one dog, but also remembering frightening experience with a different dog. You might be hopeful towards seeing some dog in your life. You might be remembering the smell, fearing the touch. Like you have all of these interactions. speaker-1: Conflict. speaker-0: Yeah, so it gets really tricky and it's hard to measure. And a cool thing about music here and why I think music is really cool in studying these high order cognitive states is the fact that we see people thinking similar things. So they feel as if their minds are doing their own thing. And this is why people are always surprised that someone else had the same thought. So you think you're doing something super personal and idiosyncratic because this is how it feels inside, but actually we kinda know what you're likely thinking, which lets us get into this state in a way in which you still feel like you're doing something unconstrained, but we kind of know something about what state you might be in. speaker-1: You know, it makes sense. It's not telepathy but it's a different way of telling a story and putting a story in our minds. It's very, very common, although I have to admit that until I read your research piece and learned about your research, it was only once in a while that I would really find myself imagining a story on a specific piece of music. speaker-0: Yeah, so unless I'm trying to, it doesn't really happen to me spontaneously all that much. We do know that people with musical training did you play an instrument growing up speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: So there is something about musical training where especially if you're classically trained, you're taught to stay focused on the music as a listener. But also there is something about free thought and mind wandering, which is when we have easier tasks at hand, we don't do it. If you have things to hang your consciousness onto, then you'll do these. If you can count try and get what the beat is or try and follow the harmony or Pay attention to different instruments. There are different tasks that you might be doing instead of just kicking back and imagining a story. Even though it sounds easier, I think somehow it's harder. speaker-1: No, it it makes sense. Of when I had a great conversation with the music therapy researcher Anna Palumbo, she talked about music being connected to the motor system of the body. And for me, dancing is sort of an automatic response to music. And but when I take the time to listen to a piece and imagine, that's a whole other really exciting experience that is accessible to anyone at any time. And that's one of the things that I feel is so beautiful about this research that you're doing, is it's showing us yet. Another way to use our minds in collaboration with a piece of music, even if it's a story everyone else is imagining at the same time as us. speaker-0: Yeah, and to connect to the thing you just said, we have a few people in the music cognition lab here and we don't think that the fact that people can think of these narratives means that they don't do other things. There's a lot of type of thoughts ⁓ that you might think in response to music. We call them extra musical thoughts. So thoughts elicited by the music but not necessarily d directly thinking about the music itself. It's I don't know, acoustic properties. So we have Karen Christiansen who is working exactly on people either consciously or unconsciously imagining movement. Mm-hmm. She calls it kinesthetic imagery and she's doing a whole bunch of studies into that. Very cool. We had Kara Turnbull work on all of these autobiographic memories. Exactly the thing you saying about how music can remind you of things. Mm-hmm. How does that work? What kinds of songs might remind you of things, what kind of life events are certain genres more likely to remind you of certain situations and so on. ⁓ so yeah, we definitely don't think that it's just these stories that people might imagine. But there's a lot of different places music can take your mind. speaker-1: Well, I just want to say that I'm very impressed with Princeton that they're doing this level of dynamic research on music. That is so cool. speaker-0: That is Lisa Margulis. She's an incredible scientist. speaker-1: Thank you, Lisa. It's one of those hidden treasures that most of us are not aware of. One of the elements of Edamar's research that I found really interesting was that in addition to activation in the auditory cortex of the brain and semantics making meaning, his team also discovered connections with the mind wandering network, which he just talked about, but also the association cortex. So can you tell us a little bit more about that? And you may need to define default mode network and association cortex for us. speaker-0: Yeah. First for the single conditions, so the same song, the same condition. So either listening to it or describing your story or listening to a story, we found activations reliably either in auditory corteces or around language related areas of the brain. And then we wanted to go one level of abstraction up from this, which was if we think of these three different modes of creating mental content or eliciting mental content, can we see something that is shared? And is specific to the mental content elicited by each and every song. Is there something that is shared when you imagine a story listening to a song, when you tell me that story later, and when you just listen to someone else's story, that is not just shared between these three, but also specific to that song and will not be shared with similar patterns elicited by a different song. And this is where we found significant Neural patterns around the default mode network and around these association corteces and so the default mode network is a set of brain regions that we kind of know that do they're involved in a lot of things. So when you just think your thoughts, when you're mind wandering, these areas pop up when you think plans in the future or remembering things like what we call mental time travel, these pop up. When you do social cognition, you think about other people, you think about your relations with other people, same set of regions. So a lot of our higher order cognition, social cognition, when you comprehend stories, these regions seem to pop up. A lot of different things can activate them. And we saw specific activations within these areas. And when we talk about association corteces, we have these parts of the brain that are primary sensory cordices. If you think of auditory information as landing in your brain, travels from your mouth to my ears, goes into the brain, the first stop in cortex would be the primary auditory cortex. Right. Which we think that mostly represents acoustic information in its raw form. Yes. And then when we make meaning, when we turn this acoustic information into music, into language, into words, into characteristics of the sound, these things travel up the cortical hierarchy. And at first it's still integration of auditory information or acoustic information. And little by little we have ways if we want to get at that representation of dog you were talking about where dog sound must meet dog smell somewhere. Right. So we have these regions that could combine information from a few modalities. Yeah, these are association. speaker-1: And that's the association corte. Sort of grabbing grabbing information. Interesting. And the default mode network, it sounds extremely versatile. When you first hear it, you think, ⁓ it's just when I'm sitting there twiddling my thumbs and thinking about nothing, but it sounds like it's much more than that. speaker-0: It's really a misnomer and it's the reason we call it that is because it was found when you compared in the early days of MRI, you had people do tasks and then stop doing tasks. And whatever task you gave people, when they stopped doing it, you saw a default mode network. Uhhuh. So it's like if you're not doing the task, then you've got these regions popping up. And I guess the people who first defined it might have still thought of it as a nuisance. speaker-1: ⁓ And it it and I I also I really imagine daydreaming was was another one. But what I understand, it's not just you're in default mode for hours or even a minute. It sounds like our brains can cycle through their different network modes, right? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you can really see these f slow fluctuations between being on task and drifting off and being mind wandering and coming back and speaker-1: Yeah. Don't we all? Yeah, it makes it makes perfect sense. With this information, how can our listeners apply it in their daily lives? Because there are different ways you could apply what your team has uncovered. speaker-0: I would say the most important thing about this is you don't always experience it. We've heard people tell us that when they listen to music in a concert hall, it happens. You sit in a concert hall, you're focusing on music, and all of a sudden you're transported into a different mental state and you imagine all of these epic battles or ⁓ forests or mystical ⁓ magical worlds and all these things. But it's not that you walk down the aisle in Trader Joe's and a song plays and y you have to drop everything and just kind of Go into that world. It's not something that is compelling to the extent of grabbing you from whatever you might be doing and putting you there. And I would say that my biggest take home from this is that you really have to make the space for these things to happen. Your mind can really take you to all these incredible places or it can take you down an Instagram feed, which Right. Yeah. And we tend to be super overstimulated a lot of the time. Yes. And I think that is really taken us away from a lot of things that could really be fun or incredible things our minds can do that we just have to give them the space to do. speaker-1: They're simple activities we can use with our minds and get a lot out of. We are currently living in an environment where truly our attention is being harvested. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, for sure. speaker-1: By by software. We haven't had anyone on the show yet to talk about this, but the entire structure of social media feeds is to activate your attention networks and keep you glued for as long as possible. Why? Well, as someone who spent about six years in advertising technology, I can tell you the reason why is to serve you as many ads as possible. Sorry, but it's true. Yes, there are amazing things you can discover on social media, but when it is taking up all your spare time, then you're missing out on the actual experience of your senses right in front of you, not just your eyes getting continually hit with new phenomena that's attracting your attention. There's the birds right outside your window or even speaker-0: Boredom, just being bored. Boredom. Boredom is great. ⁓ speaker-1: Try telling that to a nine year old. speaker-0: In a previous study, I was looking at emotion and the way that people describe their emotions and their subjective life experiences. This is work with Professor Tama Handler and Professor Yuval Benjamini from Tel Aviv University and ⁓ Hebrew University in Jerusalem. And we had people come into the lab and just tell us whatever they found to be emotionally salient life events in their own words. So we recorded these interviews and they told us about these emotional episodes from their lives. And I remember looking at the distribution of what emotional labels kind of fit. We didn't tell them what stories to tell. We recorded each person for a few hours and asked them to bring up as many emotional events from their own lives they could. Conjure. And we kind of saw which emotions tended to pop up more in these stories. It was really interesting because there could be a lot of biases making you tell or not tell a story when you know you're being recorded. And we saw that boredom was really low. On the one hand, it's really hard to center a story around boredom. And also there's a bias there where no one wants to hear it. If it's boring to you, it might be boring as a story. ⁓ but that got me thinking also about to what we experience less boredom now in our over stimulated Is it an emotion that is going extinct? speaker-1: I think it's an emotion that was never well tolerated to begin with. I remember complaining about being bored when I was a kid too. But it's become almost intolerable because you have available at your fingertips a whole world of information that you can access or things to gather your attention. So the fact of just sitting quiet, it's difficult, but it also does seem to be making a comeback. ⁓ I don't know if you've heard about this concept called raw dogging it. And what it is is it's it's people who will take a long airplane ride and refuse to watch any TV or media, listen to any music, and just sit there, maybe read a book. speaker-0: Do you have to be on a plane? Pleasant environment or speaker-1: I'd have to do a little bit more looking up, but I heard about it and I just laughed, thinking, Well yeah, you could do that to yourself but a lot of times I'm too cheap to pay for the Wi Fi anyway, so I'll just sit there and read a book. speaker-0: Yeah, I mostly fly with toddlers now, so I would say being left alone with my thoughts is not on the table for me in flights, but I'll remember that for speaker-1: The future if you're ever ever by yourself. ⁓ no, that is a really great point about your research. It's showing us and really all the research in your lab is really showing us what we have access to cognitively that can bring all this color and richness into our lives. Cost nothing. I guess it requires some electricity or some Wi-Fi signal to listen to the music, most likely. speaker-0: And again, this is not the only mode of music listening that makes you think nice thoughts. There's a paper by Lisa Margulis and Kelly Jakobowski. Where they didn't ask people to do anything in particular. They just played them sequences of short music clips and they asked them what they were thinking about. And we see memory, we see just sights or sounds or yeah, we see media memory. People tend to think about movies or series that they watch when they listen to random music a lot. We see these narratives. There are different things. Sometimes it's just an isolated image that comes up, not a full story. speaker-1: I like that. I think I've experienced all those different things when listening to music. One thing that I did want to to mention is when I was going on about all the different ways you can experience something like a dog, or it can be anything, it can be your favorite food or your least favorite food. What I think is worth calling out and why research is important is that a research project like yours has really isolated very specific elements of experience. If you try to get the whole experience, like you said, it's very messy. There's too many different pieces of information. But if you are laying in an MRI listening to music, that is the only thing you're going to be doing, most likely. speaker-0: So in a way yes, but in another way you're thinking all of your other thoughts. It's a pretty physically salient thing being an MRI scanner. Most people find it very uncomfortable. Right. ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, claustrophobia. speaker-0: Yeah. So there's all these different things you're experiencing. My other advisor here at Princeton is Uri Hassan, who is really a radical believer for a long time now in naturalistic neuroscience. ⁓ okay. So instead of trying to isolate things, just study them as they occur and try and make sense of the data afterwards. So try and measure things in as similar a way as they are experienced in the outside world, and do it in a way that lets you analyze it and make sense of these really Noisy patterns afterwards. So really we're doing it in an MRI scanner because we can scan your brain as you just go about your day, but ideally we would do it anywhere. Behavioral studies were really taken out of the lab now. We did one collaboration with the Princeton University concert series. ⁓ okay. We had people just complete paper questionnaires describing what they thought of during an actual concert they attended to see to what extent these thoughts arise. Naturally in a concert setting. We're trying to have people in the lab just listening to longer pieces of music and seeing what comes up. So we're really interested not in isolating a music listening, but going to where people listen to music and doing it there. Excellent. I would love to just talk to commuters on a train or we're doing stuff now with online behavior and find people wherever it is they listen to music and capture their thoughts there. speaker-1: Having a naturalistic environment that is is really interesting and it it reminds me of my conversation with the neuroaesthetics lab where it was Vasiliki Melataki was really studying what she called out in the wild, the neuroscience experience of aesthetic experience. speaker-0: Really a big part of this for me is naturalistic shared meaning making. Like how do we make sense of the world around us? How do we share it with one another? So the thing with the stories, this is not an actual conversation. Are stories there? But there's something about conversations where you can have mental content in your mind, and you can basically transfer that or attempt to transfer that into my mind, which is such a wild concept. speaker-1: Yet an everyday occurrence. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Incredible technology when you think about it. And we're currently working with a data set of ⁓ patients with these hyper invasive electrodes in their brains. Okay. And we just have a full week of recording of both brain and audio. So whatever conversations these patients just spontaneously had during their hospital stay, we can use that to study all sorts of ways in which you use language. Right now we have something that will not be out by the time this ears, but hopefully in a few months, where we're looking at how you're balancing understanding what I might have said, planning what you might say next, and remembering all of the broader context of our conversation while also doing the sensory and motor work of producing single words or receiving single words. So trying to parse out this multiple demand situation in conversations. speaker-1: And it sounds so complicated when you put it that way. When you start to think about all the things that you're doing at the same time when you're having a conversation, it is almost paralyzing. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of it and that is only half of it. Like if you start thinking of all the social context or all of the nuances that speaker-1: Absolutely. Are you are you talking to a friend, an acquaintance, a boss, a family member with a very long shared history? There's so much context that could be built into that conversation. And also, are you trying to be persuasive? speaker-0: Yeah, so persuasion really goes into these conversational goals. Like what are you trying to get out of a conversation? Or for every sentence that you say, ideally there should be a reason something made you say it. You could just be silent or you could think about something else. speaker-1: It's it it's it's very interesting. In fact, the more conscious I am of all the dynamics going into a conversation, the more self-conscious becoming. I really appreciate you, Idomar, taking the time to speak with me about this because your research is very deep, it's complex, but it's also it's making neuroscientific sense of the things that are going on in our brains all the time. And some of those things like Imagining stories with music maybe either require our conscious effort or they may even be happening unconsciously under the surface. And the more that we become aware of these things, the more we're able to actually pay attention and start using them. So I do really appreciate that. Thank you for coming. This episode is dedicated to my daughter Claire, who regularly visualizes stories she imagines when listening to music. speaker-0: Thank you so much. speaker-1: Incredible Mind Podcast is written, produced, and edited by me, Michelle Cross Smith. Peter Aronson is consulting producer. Angela Ferrero designed the cover art and the music was created by Alex Grohl. If you're enjoying this content, please like and subscribe to Incredible Mind Podcast wherever you're listening. Extra credit if you share an episode with friends and family. For more information, including a look at our course, Your Electric Brain, visit Incredible-Mind dot org.