Latest / The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen / 473 - Is Deportation With Dignity Possible? - Dr. Thao Ha

Transcript

473 - Is Deportation With Dignity Possible? - Dr. Thao Ha · The Vietnamese with Kenneth Nguyen

0:00
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the Vietnamese podcast today.
0:02
[SPEAKER_00]: I have a recurring guest, Dr. Talha.
0:06
[SPEAKER_00]: Welcome back to the Vietnamese podcast.
0:08
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you for having me back in.
0:11
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're going to start to drop the formal speak.
0:15
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk crazy.
0:17
[SPEAKER_00]: Because this is being lived in some crazy times.
0:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to take the gloves off.
0:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You and I wear very professional hats when we're like talking to each other on, on air.
0:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And but sometimes I just want, all right, like, we just gotta get as real as possible on this conversation.
0:39
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is a crazy time right now, I think, for for the United States.
0:46
[SPEAKER_00]: But I don't know if this is all in our head or is this the reality.
0:52
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say that because
0:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Have you ever been physically or directly a constant attack by anybody on the other side, whether it's Vietnamese or white or what?
1:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I was like, no, she's like, well, why do you take it upon yourself to fight so hard for this message?
1:16
[SPEAKER_00]: And now I wanted to bring that into our conversation today.
1:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Why are we
1:20
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you and I look fairly privileged lives, like we are really, you know, we live good lives.
1:27
[SPEAKER_00]: But why do we?
1:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Why do we put this burden on ourselves to fight so hard for this, um, for this message of equality?
1:35
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to start there.
1:38
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I like that.
1:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I like that.
1:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And I whoever said that to, um, you know,
1:47
[SPEAKER_01]: I think for myself, and maybe you're feeling the same way, you know, because something doesn't affect me, doesn't mean I don't care.
1:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And doesn't mean that I don't want to make things better for other people.
2:02
[SPEAKER_01]: I was reading this very poignant essay about folks who,
2:08
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, debate this on legality versus morality, um, self versus self versus community, and you know, some people are stuck in the legal aspect.
2:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, it's totally legal to get rid of illegals, um, and then the moral folks are like, just because something's legal, does it mean it's ethically morally, right?
2:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a better way or a different way.
2:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And the extensive legality can also be questioned in the tactics that are being used, right?
2:41
[SPEAKER_01]: That's very clear when you're paying attention to the legality.
2:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have to pay attention to that very, very specifically.
2:49
[SPEAKER_01]: the work that I do.
2:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the notion of empathy versus, you know, the self or community versus the self, you know, some people do think within their proximity, which at whatever's in their wheelhouse, that's what they're going to pay attention to and things are not happening to them.
3:10
[SPEAKER_01]: And some people are looking outside and saying, it does matter.
3:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It does
3:16
[SPEAKER_01]: It is wrong for XYZ to happen to these other communities or these other individuals, and
3:23
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a world lens, so when someone questions me in that way, I love the Let Them Theory, which is, let them let them, I'm not asking you to do anything.
3:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm saying that I would like to do something.
3:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully those who resonate with how I think and messaging that I have and carry, you know, follow along and as a collective, we make a difference.
3:53
[SPEAKER_01]: There's, you know, I'm never going to judge someone because they're like, well, I just don't care.
3:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't want to focus.
3:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I don't know why you do.
3:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you ask that?
4:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you do care.
4:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe you have an interest in why because you didn't care.
4:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You would just like it would just
4:11
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, no, I think the person is really, you know, they can just be really curious that person comes from Vietnam.
4:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, it's, it's, I think it's hard for people in Vietnam to understand why we struggle with identity.
4:27
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and it's so difficult for me to explain it now.
4:31
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, how do I, I don't know.
4:32
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know why I'm obsessed with this topic.
4:35
[SPEAKER_00]: Every time I'm in Vietnam every time I see somebody at the dinner table or I'm at a big,
4:40
[SPEAKER_00]: It's always about identity and we, you know, they're like, well, have you been affected by it?
4:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, many, many years ago when I was growing up, but not in the last 15, 20 years, maybe, no.
4:53
[SPEAKER_00]: But we live in this hectic, maybe media presented world of chaos and we're just trying to figure out and make sense of this.
5:05
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's why we're here.
5:06
[SPEAKER_00]: I have so many
5:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Questions about the work that you do, about the life that you live, as it relates to this administration and what can we do?
5:20
[SPEAKER_00]: What are some real things that we can do and that we should do?
5:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you asked me to do this because you said there was a social media thing I had written about like feeling that folks don't know what to do or how they can help or how they can get involved.
5:43
[SPEAKER_01]: And I
5:45
[SPEAKER_01]: felt compelled to write that because I think people were feeling the the monstrosity of the what you had mentioned earlier with the media like just pounding the information flooding the zone is what they've called it right flooding us with like
6:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So much stuff that our minds are chaotic and and it does, it freezes, you know, it freezes people because they are they're we're not able to kind of like will it will it will it will it down to something simple that can help us like maneuver in a way and it feels like right and.
6:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're asking, like, are we talking about ourselves real quick?
6:32
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, like, what do we do?
6:33
[SPEAKER_01]: How to, you know, what's the daily that that we're trying to make a change or making a difference?
6:40
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm asking an individual level when we're bombarded with all this chaos uh, information.
6:46
[SPEAKER_00]: What can, what can we do to help society and is it our job to really help society?
6:52
[SPEAKER_00]: I know the answer for myself, but I'm wondering from a standpoint, you're doing this constantly, literally helping people who cannot help themselves every day, you're in the trenches, and I'm not a whole lot of people know about the work you, yeah,
7:09
[SPEAKER_01]: they can help themselves.
7:11
[SPEAKER_01]: They can't.
7:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to ever say like, I'm helping people who can't help themselves.
7:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They can.
7:16
[SPEAKER_01]: They need the tools.
7:17
[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have the tools and they don't know about the tools.
7:20
[SPEAKER_01]: Once they know and they are empowered, and they can feel that they can participate in their own decision-making, that's the goal here, right?
7:32
[SPEAKER_01]: So I can't help.
7:34
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't help people by saying, here, let me do things for you.
7:38
[SPEAKER_01]: You need to do things for yourself.
7:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I know you don't know how yet or you don't know what tools you have on what strategies so let me show you and then go execute it, right?
7:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think for me, feeling like, maybe because I'm a teacher, no, like it's education.
7:56
[SPEAKER_01]: It's, I have knowledge.
7:58
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me share it with you.
7:59
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's the pathway, right?
8:04
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, being an educator that is in intrinsic motivation to educate, but also guide and want to see people succeed in whatever it is that are endeavors.
8:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So when it comes to society, it's kind of like my general way I operate.
8:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And I do have to think about what can I do as an individual and then does that really make an impact on society, which is why I wrote something about doing things small because, you know, when I'm sociologist so when you're looking at like being picture of things.
8:42
[SPEAKER_01]: It does feel overwhelming, like, how do I change laws?
8:45
[SPEAKER_01]: How do I change the structure and the practices of going on in politics and the economy?
8:51
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you would all it down to yourself, you don't know what to do until you know what the big picture is.
8:59
[SPEAKER_01]: That's why sociology is important.
9:00
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to understand what the pieces and the structures are so that you have a better idea of how you want to participate in it.
9:10
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a good sense of systems and structures and I've made decisions about how I want to operate in it for myself, well, my own well-being, but also the well-being of others.
9:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's skills, different capacities, different directions for everyone.
9:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Can we talk about what exactly you do?
9:35
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, well, let me, let me talk about, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,
9:59
[SPEAKER_01]: an incredible player in this problematic corporate structure that is not just about greed now, it's like bleeding into, like, privacy and rights and, you know,
10:15
[SPEAKER_01]: harm.
10:16
[SPEAKER_01]: So as I am not going to use Amazon anymore and so I do I use them to search for things sure and then okay what do I because they're a great search engine for products then I go look I see and then I go and I look for that product on that providers you know website.
10:34
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and so for two months, I might want to think in my mom, you know, she lives out of state.
10:40
[SPEAKER_01]: So she has, you know, asked me to buy her things and Amazon's quick and easy, but I told her I said, okay, this is not going to come in two days like it usually does, can you wait a week?
10:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, oh, yeah, no problem.
10:52
[SPEAKER_01]: So it comes a week later than usual, and that's fine.
10:55
[SPEAKER_01]: And I explained to her, like, uh, uh,
10:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't say, I'm like, I was on and out of them, but I just say, oh, it's just shipping is taking longer.
11:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And she's like, okay, and do I pay a little more?
11:06
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
11:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's owning the bit of privilege where I'm like, okay, if it's $5 more, you know, I can afford it.
11:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I do emphasize for people who are like, man, it's, I'm truly stretching here and $5 more is it.
11:20
[SPEAKER_01]: So this is not like a judgment on people who use Amazon.
11:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just saying for myself, I don't.
11:27
[SPEAKER_01]: I go to Home Depot and Lowe's, no, I'm going to Ace Hardware, you know, so I'm researching these kind of corporate structures and how do I make alternative choices in spending and consumerism.
11:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And do I have to sacrifice a little yes and I'm okay with that?
11:45
[SPEAKER_01]: That's just one example.
11:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's really voting with your wallet.
11:53
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's not easy.
11:55
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a tough thing.
11:57
[SPEAKER_01]: I think this is we're being a Vietnamese refugee health because it's like delayed gratification.
12:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
12:05
[SPEAKER_01]: All right.
12:05
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to.
12:06
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't have to have it now.
12:07
[SPEAKER_01]: It's part also like
12:12
[SPEAKER_01]: looking for the deal.
12:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's go find it.
12:15
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's see the and it's also, I think, do the question is, do I really need this thing?
12:22
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this brand what I really need?
12:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Is well or is it what I want?
12:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, is, um, do I need it at all?
12:31
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, do I need it at all?
12:33
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I take a pause and I think about it, I'm like, yeah, I really don't need this right now.
12:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't remember, I don't need it.
12:41
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this thought of the practice of what you're doing, it's crossing my mind as you're telling me about what you do.
12:51
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not really the boycott of Amazon or the company.
12:56
[SPEAKER_00]: It's actually an integrity practice to check yourself.
13:01
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that taking inventory of your decisions,
13:08
[SPEAKER_00]: bleeds out into bigger waters and makes a different type of impact than hurting the pocket books of a ginormous corporation like Amazon.
13:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's just starting with our own integrity of what we believe in is what I glean from this process that you just explained.
13:27
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, um, you're so poetic and I'm just thinking about leading into, you know, the river.
13:37
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like visualizing and imagine me and a million other people deciding this, right?
13:44
[SPEAKER_01]: Then there's a difference.
13:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Then there's a dent.
13:46
[SPEAKER_01]: And then those million people have figured that out in a million,
13:49
[SPEAKER_01]: non-users over months, you know, makes a difference.
13:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's what the the the the post was about like they want us to feel that are small decisions every day don't make a difference.
14:03
[SPEAKER_01]: But enough people make that small change, it does it does bleed into the.
14:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
14:13
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
14:14
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's really a, like a, was on a quantum level, you know, trying to, you know, change ourselves.
14:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's like almost like a daily meditation, yes, not trying to be all poetic.
14:24
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just, really think you know, it's true.
14:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Everyone kind of thinks like, oh, you know, tell your sociologist, you look at big picture.
14:33
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, what can we do to change the big picture?
14:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like,
14:36
[SPEAKER_01]: come back to ourselves, right, that the micro daily changes and actions do have that ripple effect.
14:47
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a complicated world that we are literally trying to adapt to every single day of our lives.
14:54
[SPEAKER_00]: Like the conversations that we have and even the social media posts that I'm now creating more of, it's just a meditation of like, what are we doing to be more healthy?
15:10
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm talking about everything, you know, when we're dealing with,
15:15
[SPEAKER_00]: the pressures of losing our integrity with this administration.
15:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'll just say it, it's just like just watching the pan-bondy like hearings mind blowing, the kind of lack of control, the lack of like the the the the perspective of how the other side get see things, but then I have to like really check myself and go like, how did he get to this point?
15:40
[SPEAKER_00]: How did we in America?
15:43
[SPEAKER_00]: get to this point of like we're disintegrating.
15:45
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel like we're like falling apart.
15:48
[SPEAKER_00]: But I do.
15:49
[SPEAKER_00]: I feel every day I'm like we're falling apart.
15:51
[SPEAKER_00]: But then like when I talk to you, I'm like, okay, we as a collective can just do the little things that
15:59
[SPEAKER_00]: return the power back to us, which is really the daily meditations of what you're really doing.
16:05
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you taking part in this flow of like corruption and this flow?
16:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But the other side are not, you know, they're not seeing it that way, though either.
16:15
[SPEAKER_00]: They're seeing us as the adversaries.
16:18
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't want to lose my connection to the people I love that are on the right and are conservative.
16:24
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, daily I'm like struggling with
16:26
[SPEAKER_00]: this sort of divide that it's not just in the Vietnamese community, but it's in, you know, friends of mine that, you know, I'm sometimes I'm like, I'm on this side and then I'm on that side, it's just a very complicated and stressful time to be alive.
16:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is okay.
16:43
[SPEAKER_01]: Like I want the audience that watches your show, and especially the young people, the younger, we're still young, can.
16:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Younger folks to understand that this is not, this is not unusual, everyone is facing this dilemma
17:05
[SPEAKER_01]: Making decisions about how to keep your peace, but how to maintain relationships with people that you really do care about on a personal level when your political, social, economic visions are different.
17:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I think this is where you come back to that integrity piece right what you have to assess for yourself stop assessing other people and why they think the way that they think and why they that's on them right you focus on yourself and you think these are my boundaries these are my values and what other
17:41
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I don't want to say benefits, but what other ways does this person nourish you connect with you?
17:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that worth saving so that you can overcome or override these other things?
17:57
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've heard lots of people say, look, at this point, if you're a Trump supporter supporting this administration, you're just cut you off, right?
18:06
[SPEAKER_01]: And and that is okay and I and I can totally see that because there are some people that kind of were on the periphery of my space, my circles, that I'm like, yeah, I can let that go and it doesn't have to be dramatic.
18:20
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be like
18:22
[SPEAKER_01]: you know like just just move right they contact you just decide in that moment like hey I'm busy you know there's no need to announce your departure of that relationship right now if it's someone close to you and you want to maintain it it's your parents it's your siblings it's your close friends your business associates your coworkers your partner right people change
18:52
[SPEAKER_01]: that is when you have to ask yourself, you know, what is, I think people want to maintain those relationships.
18:58
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not as easy as like, well, you know, we're done.
19:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess for some people it is.
19:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that relationship just isn't close enough.
19:06
[SPEAKER_01]: But if it's somebody that close proximity to you and I'll use my example, I do.
19:11
[SPEAKER_01]: I have family that
19:13
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm listening to what they're listening to, and it's like Vietnamese YouTube, and it's like, but I'm very curious.
19:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, what are they listening to?
19:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I make some people in the way they feel, I think the way they think, right?
19:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I've battled with this every day with my parents.
19:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So for all those Vietnamese, young Indians, and adult, and young adults who are like feeling very, very pained by their relationship with their parents,
19:40
[SPEAKER_01]: like just let them, like there is no changing people's minds when they're steadfast.
19:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Not gonna happen, right?
19:51
[SPEAKER_01]: They're stuck, you're stuck.
19:53
[SPEAKER_01]: So move outside of this pool of conversation and let them, because I believe that if you focus so much energy on that other person, you're losing that well that you need to do what you need to do.
20:08
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm just like, they voted that way.
20:12
[SPEAKER_01]: And the amazing thing is as things get worse and worse,
20:17
[SPEAKER_01]: The evidence comes through and people are like, man, okay, the economy's really bad right now.
20:23
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man, they're arresting citizens.
20:25
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, man, they're trying to denatialize people.
20:28
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I didn't see this coming, right?
20:30
[SPEAKER_01]: And so when we get this conversation, chance to talk about the work that I do, I see it so much.
20:36
[SPEAKER_01]: I see so much evidence.
20:37
[SPEAKER_01]: And the only way that you could see it is if you stay engaged, if you stay engaged, if you cut that off, you don't know.
20:43
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't know if that person has come around or not.
20:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you've got to have some endurance to withstand this, and you don't even learn so then you need to find some ways to take care of yourself, so that you can endure.
20:56
[SPEAKER_00]: Martin Luther King, I think he said that arc of truth, arc of justice bends towards, you know, it takes time, but it bends towards justice.
21:07
[SPEAKER_00]: And we can see it, and we can see and feel it.
21:11
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's not about, I told you so, or dropping people, it's just, and some people just don't write lazy, too, about the, I don't know.
21:23
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just laziness because you know, we press them a little bit and they're like, you could tell they're just not interested in really digging into like, figuring this out.
21:33
[SPEAKER_00]: And I get that too.
21:34
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, we're too busy to be like, I don't work.
21:36
[SPEAKER_00]: Who cares about this, you know, just.
21:39
[SPEAKER_00]: but we're so random or I, you know, we're just so... That's okay, let them, let them.
21:44
[SPEAKER_01]: And but the challenge for you and for myself and for others that are in, you know, things, things, it's me, why am I focused, why is my energy with them?
21:57
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, I know where they stand, don't need to have that conversation, you're lazy, let them, and my strength comes from finding the people that are like me, because they nourish me, they make me like rejuvenate it, they're like, okay, so I did this today, I'm like, yeah, awesome, and well, this is what I did today, they're like, yeah, awesome, and then we just kind of like,
22:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, chug along like uplifting each other with the things that we were doing on a daily and then we collaborate and we're like, okay, you're doing this.
22:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm doing this and then it all it just it feels more of a blossom than.
22:44
[SPEAKER_00]: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
23:01
[SPEAKER_00]: uh... she is a writer who wrote a book called let them uh... last year and published and uh... i read that book um... as i was going through a tough time in my life uh... and it really does help to uh... to really integrate that idea it's a very simple idea whatever people do let them
23:21
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not invited to a party, you're crude and invite you, let them.
23:26
[SPEAKER_00]: That's how she opens up the party.
23:28
[SPEAKER_00]: She's like, she didn't get invited to like this woman's weekend.
23:31
[SPEAKER_00]: And she was like, whoa, and that, and I've been through that many times too, you know, it's hurtful.
23:37
[SPEAKER_00]: You're sitting alone and you're just like, wow, everybody's at the Super Bowl party and I didn't get invited, you know?
23:43
[SPEAKER_00]: go on through that and you kind of have to let them be.
23:49
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a reason and you grow from these experiences tremendously.
23:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Sure, and I encourage folks to think about assessing your own self in
24:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Was it something that I did, you know, and if you, if you live with integrity, you're like, well, I don't think I did.
24:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, okay, now if it really hurts because it's somebody you're close to, maybe that's a conversation you do need to have.
24:27
[SPEAKER_01]: And so how do you express your discomfort with that person, hey, I heard there was an event like.
24:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's really uncomfortable, I was like, I really wanted to go, would you pardon me saying this so many times, right?
24:45
[SPEAKER_01]: You heard me go, where was my invite, right?
24:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, just put it out there.
24:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Hey, you know what I mean?
24:52
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's always a great reason.
24:53
[SPEAKER_01]: The like, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
24:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought you were invited or I, oh, you know, I was so busy and I'm sorry and you're like,
25:06
[SPEAKER_01]: There's you don't you don't know until you you have that conversation.
25:11
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but that's if you, you know, you're feeling you're sitting with it like down.
25:16
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get invited to this thing.
25:18
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't get to go, you know, it was part of this whatever.
25:24
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, let me add one more thing that I think is very helpful.
25:28
[SPEAKER_01]: And this is what I've learned from like reading the Stoics, right?
25:31
[SPEAKER_01]: Stoicism is being able to sit with discomfort because as soon as you practice sitting with feelings that you don't like and and really intentionally letting them simmer and then settle.
25:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you move forward, right?
25:51
[SPEAKER_01]: What happens is over time with practice like muscles, right?
25:54
[SPEAKER_01]: It's your soul's muscle.
25:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're like, you feel a little pinch.
25:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you're like, yeah, yeah, things to do.
26:01
[SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, yeah, yeah.
26:03
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I love it.
26:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it's the conditioning of the mind, the soul to sit with discomfort.
26:11
[SPEAKER_01]: let it pass.
26:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you know what is little and what is big because if something is still sitting with you, then you're like, okay, this needs to be addressed because I can't seem to manage this particular emotion.
26:27
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for that.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
26:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Am I, I'm only going to give this a shot at what you do at collective freedom or are you going to just step up and like explain it to
26:41
[SPEAKER_01]: And well, you know a little bit, or you actually know a lot.
26:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And so collective freedom is a nonprofit.
26:49
[SPEAKER_01]: It was started very recently, maybe a year and a half ago, I would want to know a word for social justice where I can San Diego on campus, where I teach.
26:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I also have been the coordinator of a program that helps people who come home from prison in incarceration, go to college.
27:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And from that word,
27:09
[SPEAKER_01]: I had gotten this award, it came with some money, and I was like, well, I would love to start an organization outside of the campus to kind of help folks.
27:20
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't know, you know, I had an idea of how I would structure the programming.
27:24
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, I just went with it and I started it as filing paperwork and everything getting a board together, getting a team together to think about what that programming would look like to help folks.
27:34
[SPEAKER_01]: outside of college.
27:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Fast forward to, and that was June, summer 2024, fast forward to November 2024 when the election happened and Trump was running his campaign on mass deportation.
27:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, there are a lot of folks that have criminal convictions, old ones came home from incarceration, rebuilt their lives.
27:57
[SPEAKER_01]: second chances and because of immigration laws, they have never been able to secure citizenship and people don't understand that.
28:06
[SPEAKER_01]: They're like, why have you been here 30 years when you're not a citizen?
28:09
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, there are barriers in immigration law.
28:14
[SPEAKER_01]: How do they get to stay?
28:15
[SPEAKER_01]: There's policies within Homeland Security and ICE that allow them to stay and work and build lives.
28:25
[SPEAKER_01]: The data that Trump won, that this was going to be an issue.
28:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So by January, I had pivoted the idea of what collectum freedom would be to really start focusing on folks who were coming, who had criminal convictions in the past, or were coming home from incarceration, and were going to face these immigration consequences.
28:46
[SPEAKER_01]: long story, it could be a long lecture about why Vietnamese loud and Cambodian communities are severely impacted.
28:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And we can go into that later or not or just come visit my website, their history in there.
29:01
[SPEAKER_01]: And so by February, March, this is when we saw a lot of folks who
29:15
[SPEAKER_01]: when they were young and now, you know, had been able to maintain their lives here, or we're now getting picked up or arrested by ICE and put in detention centers and then eventually deported, right, to Vietnam Cambodian else.
29:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And Cambodian actually,
29:34
[SPEAKER_01]: been affected during the first administration because there were, again, immigration and legal policies that allowed Cambodia to accept their community members in the past, but Vietnam and
29:52
[SPEAKER_01]: in the view of the amount of community in the morning and all the ethnic minorities of those countries were being impacted.
29:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So I just pivoted, I was like, our community needs help, you know, all the other communities, particularly that the Latin next communities were.
30:08
[SPEAKER_01]: they've been going through this for decades, you know, they have organizations, they have nonprofits, they have legal advisories, and their circumstances are so different from our Southeast Asian refugee experience.
30:21
[SPEAKER_01]: So there's this new landscape that people had to learn how to navigate.
30:25
[SPEAKER_01]: And I crash course immigration, policy, law, legal relief.
30:31
[SPEAKER_01]: I worked
30:37
[SPEAKER_01]: program to really, you know, at first I was a little nervous, I was like, man, there's so much like safety and security with around people who were going to like harbor illegal or like help the illegal.
30:54
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm like, yes, but over time I really understood my, my, the mission that I wanted at collective freedom, which is nobody's trying to stop, you know, and, and harbor anybody
31:09
[SPEAKER_01]: illegally do anything.
31:10
[SPEAKER_01]: There are legal pathways for these folks, and then they're on the majority list, real talk.
31:15
[SPEAKER_01]: They will be deported.
31:17
[UNKNOWN]: Yeah.
31:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And so my mission was how do I help people feel like they are knowledgeable about what's going to happen to them?
31:27
[SPEAKER_01]: What is the light that we can bring to the situation?
31:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Because most people were just in the dark.
31:31
[SPEAKER_01]: They had no idea.
31:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And the number one thing that people will tell me is, thank you for letting me know.
31:38
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that this was the way it was going to be.
31:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know this process.
31:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know what was going to happen when my loved one got into detention.
31:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know what was going to happen when my loved one got to Vietnam or else.
31:50
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, so it's clarity and then it's saying, I'm so sorry, you know, let's do what we can, let's try to help, and people feel a little bit of dignity and not feeling alone.
32:03
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
32:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that mean that we haven't helped people stay?
32:07
[SPEAKER_01]: We have because they have legal options depending on every circumstance, right?
32:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So yes, through the last year, we've helped people fix their problems legally.
32:19
[SPEAKER_01]: and they got their green card back and they get to stay with their families.
32:22
[SPEAKER_01]: It's really small, but it's still very important, right?
32:25
[SPEAKER_01]: For those who could stay and in the vast majority you've had to go.
32:30
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do those families feel supported?
32:34
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's the work that I've been doing.
32:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's heavy and it's, you know, if it's an hour session on the phone, 45 minutes of it is like,
32:45
[SPEAKER_01]: emotional support, right?
32:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm so.
32:47
[SPEAKER_01]: And 15 minutes of like, okay, here's what legally we can do.
32:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And oh, this is your husband's old conviction.
32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm sorry.
32:54
[SPEAKER_01]: There's nothing we can do.
32:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's not really for this situation, right?
32:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And just giving people the real talk of like, and so they don't spend 15 20 30 thousand dollars on these attorneys that are telling them, oh, yeah, I can do this for them.
33:07
[SPEAKER_01]: I get it.
33:08
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, no, not in this case, this is not going to work.
33:13
[SPEAKER_01]: And
33:14
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's guidance, it's advocacy to, for them to understand their unique situation legally and how to prepare them for what the reality is in the majority of these cases.
33:32
[SPEAKER_00]: And how do people find you?
33:34
[SPEAKER_01]: or to mouth at first.
33:38
[SPEAKER_01]: We were a little quiet, you know, I had a website, but like I put some information out there, but you know, luckily I'm in Southern California.
33:46
[SPEAKER_01]: So my first outreach was,
33:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We tried to hold a zoom session and I was like, I don't know man, some of these guys are like 50, 60 years old, they don't know zoom and stuff.
33:58
[SPEAKER_01]: So the impacted people that I knew, we were brainstorming and I was like, they're at the coffee shops, they're at the one y'all right like so I printed physical.
34:09
[SPEAKER_01]: business cards.
34:10
[SPEAKER_01]: We handed them out and I said, God, immigration problem.
34:15
[SPEAKER_01]: It's been like a few to me.
34:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You do home.
34:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You don't like home.
34:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Click this link and learn more, right?
34:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I think it was like maybe only 20 people in January last year, but now it's
34:32
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, if I go through my spreadsheet of like people that, you know, know, it's a like people I'm trying to help.
34:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm in the hundreds, you know, and it went from Southern California, to Northern California, and then my connections in Texas, and people have started calling from Texas, and and people know each other, right?
34:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's all word of mouth.
34:52
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, some of the attorneys have been trying to learn specifically what it's like to litigate for Southeast Asian Americans and so helping attorneys also learn the social cultural political landscape that would make a good case for things in their
35:16
[SPEAKER_01]: legal relief options.
35:19
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's been been really helpful, but yeah, that's how people find out.
35:24
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm okay with that.
35:25
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not on social media, you know, I'm not loud.
35:29
[SPEAKER_01]: I just work real quietly and I get, you know, and I'm going on your podcast now because I feel much more confident.
35:35
[SPEAKER_01]: I wasn't very sure of the security issues in the past, but
35:41
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not here to break any laws.
35:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not here to, you know, I'm thwart what board of patrol or ICE or homens care is doing.
35:52
[SPEAKER_01]: I just give information.
35:53
[SPEAKER_01]: I learn what the memos are.
35:55
[SPEAKER_01]: I learn what the rules are.
35:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And I pass it on to our community.
35:58
[SPEAKER_01]: And I say, stay safe.
35:59
[SPEAKER_01]: If you can, but if you find yourself in detention, which or deportation, we're here for you.
36:06
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all it is.
36:08
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, took you some convincing to get you to come on the podcast to talk about this very important work.
36:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
36:17
[UNKNOWN]: I.
36:18
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, it must be all.
36:20
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm like, can you already had me?
36:21
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't need to.
36:23
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we did.
36:24
[SPEAKER_00]: We talked about the elections the last time that which was a year ago.
36:28
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but this is a completely different phase of your life that you're in.
36:35
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to pose a question that is probably on the other side, just playing devil's advocate.
36:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Look, these are criminals.
36:44
[SPEAKER_00]: Why should we help them?
36:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, because they've done their time, you know, if we've studied the long, um, the long history of of crime in the US and who's a criminal and.
37:01
[SPEAKER_01]: they've taken, you know, they come in at crimes, sure.
37:03
[SPEAKER_01]: And then they go to prison and they serve their time and then they come home and rooted back into my work on campus is, yeah, these are criminals I work with if you want to, if we want to label them, right?
37:18
[SPEAKER_01]: And say, but they want to do better and that's okay.
37:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And so for me, it's like if these folks were,
37:27
[SPEAKER_01]: already making decisions when they were younger and got themselves in a situation and they're more mature now.
37:35
[SPEAKER_01]: They're getting a second chance.
37:37
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, hey, I'm here to help that.
37:39
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm all about second chance.
37:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm about to underdog.
37:42
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm about to make mistakes and owning up to it.
37:45
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm all about forgiveness, right?
37:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Now,
37:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Do some of these people commit like heinous ones.
37:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about this.
37:53
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about our people in the 90s, right?
37:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Like they were doing some shit on our own community.
37:59
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what I mean?
38:01
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, let's not show your coat that, you know, and I do want to address that though.
38:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I do want to talk about that because you, you we brought it up and I was thinking about it the last two minutes as you're telling me about criminals.
38:15
[SPEAKER_00]: My theory is this.
38:18
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I built my sort of like my scaffolding in how I look at people this way, which is are there really criminals out there or are there just wounded kids that grow up to be
38:37
[SPEAKER_00]: people who are unresolved with their core wounds and I tend to believe more in that.
38:43
[SPEAKER_00]: So this idea of rehab and all of these things unfortunately has to happen in prison and over many many years of some of the people that we've known who sat in there for 20 years.
38:55
[SPEAKER_00]: But the reality I feel is this we look back at the history of
39:01
[SPEAKER_00]: The Vietnamese youth men, males, being pushed off the dock to be with their aunts and uncles because their mom had to keep back and stay back and get out for six or seven other kids.
39:13
[SPEAKER_00]: They had to send the two of the brightest ones out into the ocean to be with their aunts or uncles and then they get to America and then the aunts and uncles treat them like shit.
39:22
[SPEAKER_00]: then there's this core wound of being abandoned by your family.
39:25
[SPEAKER_00]: And you can see if it's not your uncle or your aunt, it's your mom and dad who had to work, who did not give you love.
39:33
[SPEAKER_00]: It was just this pattern of the lack of love, this core wound that creates this like, and then other people are like, well, I went through that too and I didn't turn out that way.
39:42
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, no, I really do believe that these
39:52
[SPEAKER_00]: the lack of love.
39:54
[SPEAKER_00]: That's just my own anecdotal feel as I've lived through the 90s and have known so many of these people that ended up in jail as in prisons that if they were loved and if they found family and if they found reason to be good people, we'd have a really good society.
40:17
[SPEAKER_00]: We wouldn't have this like,
40:19
[SPEAKER_00]: population in jail.
40:20
[SPEAKER_00]: And so I think that's more of the thing to address for me when we're thinking about like these brothers who are like, yeah, anyway, that's my two cents on core wounds and and the gangs of the 90s as a result of the immigration of the 70s and 80s cross in the oceans, you know, that's really how I feel about this.
40:37
[SPEAKER_01]: 1,000% that impact of our communities experience is it's unique to that time period, but it's not unique to
40:57
[SPEAKER_01]: the refugee experience, right?
40:59
[SPEAKER_01]: And when we, when we examined that, exactly the way that you had presented it, it's the core wounds that you were talking about, but it's also like, there's so many other socioeconomic structures, like,
41:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, the discrimination and people said, well, I was also called to look, I'd do those things and you know, okay, but other people did so it
41:29
[SPEAKER_00]: Now what, yeah.
41:31
[SPEAKER_01]: You know what, right?
41:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's just the self-righteousness and judgment that I just don't want to operate under.
41:39
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, let them.
41:40
[SPEAKER_01]: And you want to argue with me, please don't because I don't have the ban.
41:44
[SPEAKER_01]: I have, I'm too busy helping people.
41:46
[SPEAKER_01]: OK, you don't want to help.
41:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Please don't push me down.
41:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I can let you think the way you think, let me think the way I think you do you, I'll do me.
41:59
[SPEAKER_01]: that these folks are were under a different set of circumstances than a lot of people.
42:08
[SPEAKER_01]: And the decisions that they made were out of, again, the circumstances that they were in and cash many of them were so young.
42:19
[SPEAKER_01]: And with out that safety and stability,
42:23
[SPEAKER_01]: You know how many people I help who are gone lie, right?
42:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, they were children of the soldiers.
42:29
[SPEAKER_01]: Their stories break my heart the most, you know?
42:32
[SPEAKER_01]: Because they were, they were used to come here.
42:36
[SPEAKER_01]: They were left behind.
42:37
[SPEAKER_01]: They were at beef.
42:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And the crazy thing about law and policy is that they were not automatic citizenship.
42:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Even though they're parents, they're one of their parents.
42:47
[SPEAKER_01]: Biological was a U.S. citizen.
42:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, and being used abused a band-end, right?
42:55
[SPEAKER_01]: But also like identity, you were talking about identity, what am I?
42:59
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm not citizenship, so not white enough or black enough or American enough, but I'm not Vietnamese enough, so they're ostracizing from the Vietnamese community.
43:08
[SPEAKER_01]: They have a legacy of like stigma because their moms were bar girls, you know?
43:13
[SPEAKER_01]: Like there's all this pile on
43:16
[SPEAKER_01]: When I listen to their histories, I'm like, man, I, you know, and then they go to, they get sent to Vietnam, they don't know anybody, they don't have family, they're, they're lost.
43:27
[SPEAKER_01]: So.
43:28
[SPEAKER_01]: My hair please for them.
43:29
[SPEAKER_01]: So I'm looking beyond their decision and the crime that they come in in and that because that's done.
43:36
[SPEAKER_01]: So what do we do?
43:37
[SPEAKER_01]: We just trash them more.
43:38
[SPEAKER_01]: They're really building a pile on of like negativity and like not reform and not helping people get better.
43:47
[SPEAKER_01]: So when you ask, how do we make society better?
43:49
[SPEAKER_01]: We make people better.
43:50
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we help people feel better?
43:52
[SPEAKER_01]: Be better.
43:54
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
43:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So, so to those people were like, they're criminal, yes, okay, like, carry on, you know, like, why are you doing this?
44:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me be, why are you not?
44:06
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, we can agree to disagree, but just let me do my thing and don't get in my way and like stop adding to the negative energy of, you know, what I'm, what I'm about and you can focus on what you're about.
44:17
[SPEAKER_01]: You want to vote for Harsher Laws for these individuals, please do so.
44:21
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I'm going to do on my end and and and more hopefully people like that are like mine and with me will eventually vote on the other end and let it let it play out.
44:32
[SPEAKER_01]: But but this this this fighting and this negative and this is like, what are you holding people?
44:36
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave it alone.
44:39
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:40
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I mean, I am, you know, like I'm just one person.
44:45
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
44:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I'm helping people,
44:47
[SPEAKER_00]: Let me do my thing.
44:48
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
44:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me do my thing.
44:50
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
44:51
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, it's not hurting you for me to help people.
44:55
[SPEAKER_01]: You will not be harmed if I help someone who's already here, who's already working, who already has a family, who's kids are in college.
45:04
[SPEAKER_01]: Jane tagging.
45:05
[SPEAKER_01]: being taxed.
45:07
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's all this myth about these people don't play tanks.
45:10
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, they're illegal in a moment.
45:12
[SPEAKER_01]: They're legally, you know, there's differences in people who came legally, illegally, and they're like, well, we came here legally, technically, as Julie lies that if you'd so, you know, powerfully demonstrated, we kind of technically were illegal at one point.
45:27
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're honest about.
45:28
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
45:31
[SPEAKER_01]: We're human, and regardless of status, like I just wanna make people's lives better.
45:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And if it is that they end up having to go be deported to laws or Vietnam, like, can we still treat them like human beings?
45:44
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, this is their consequence.
45:46
[SPEAKER_01]: They're getting deported.
45:48
[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's good for them.
45:49
[SPEAKER_01]: Like, okay, yeah, I care about the human people.
45:55
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, when you study artists, like when I look into artists' lives, I look into like the early works and like if they're drawing like a sketch of a flower, right?
46:09
[SPEAKER_00]: You can like it as a kid.
46:11
[SPEAKER_00]: You just start to see the journey of like this flower becoming more complicated, complex, than simple, and you know, there's like different iterations of flowers like Georgia, okay, right?
46:22
[SPEAKER_00]: And then when you think about like social activists, you look into their early histories, and you think about their lives as young women, young men.
46:35
[SPEAKER_00]: In your case, there is, in early, there's early records of you and gang life, right?
46:46
[SPEAKER_00]: really going through that stuff.
46:48
[SPEAKER_00]: And I'm here to kind of bring up another point, probably this is the last part of our conversation, which is your journey into putting all of that into a living breathing document, a book that you are,
47:03
[SPEAKER_00]: that you are complete with and, you know, we can tease it a little bit.
47:08
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not sure where you are allowed under your deal to discuss it, but maybe it's not something that we get into details with.
47:17
[SPEAKER_00]: But I just want to say that in a few more months that we are going to probably get back under the podcast to show and to allow people to understand that.
47:26
[SPEAKER_00]: all of this stuff that you're doing right now, it doesn't come from nowhere.
47:31
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, and this is for the young people that are listening out there, that if you are caught up in a life that is not where you think that you should be and it's confusing right now because you're not, there's no light at the end of the tunnel.
47:45
[SPEAKER_00]: Talha is somebody who's really gone through the arc of the entire journey of living through that, that you're probably living through right now.
47:55
[SPEAKER_00]: And that it is the basis of like the flower that I just talked about in the artist journey.
47:59
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like you start with this little thing.
48:01
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a seed and it germinates into a life of, you know, getting a PhD and then, you know, writing
48:09
[SPEAKER_00]: big memoir this book that we can begin to understand who you are.
48:13
[SPEAKER_00]: So I just wanted to see how much you're allowed to talk about.
48:17
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I appreciate you because this book has managed been a long journey, right?
48:23
[SPEAKER_01]: And people are told me, and if you want to be a writer, she's ready to be ready for the long enduring journey of what it takes to like really get a book out there in a traditional press and not, you know, self-published, which at some point I was like, yeah, I'll just put it on Amazon and self-published, which I so glad I didn't do because I don't like Amazon right now.
48:46
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you know, I want you enough to go through this journey of like having a literary agent and pitching the book and getting a publisher and like going through like 10 different versions of this the story, right in how it's written, um, you know, when your life is like so rich with like many stories, how do you?
49:05
[SPEAKER_01]: narrow it down to little pieces that make a book that's not 500 pages long and it shouldn't be.
49:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And so at the stage and then I am now, yes, it is getting ready for publication, I've been told like September, early September will be the release date, the launch date.
49:23
[SPEAKER_01]: At this moment, you know, we're going over the cover design, which is a whole other, you know, yes, that you're you're you're you're jacking with the the team, right?
49:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And to bring that back, you know, for those who are familiar, then you kind of know the snippet about the book, if you're not familiar and you're watching for the first time, you know, I grew up in the 90s and I was, you know, the world that you just gained life was like ubiquitous like everywhere around me in Houston, Texas, I was a early middle schooler when kind of like the rise of like the games we're coming through and.
50:03
[SPEAKER_01]: I knew some of the players in Houston, and by the time I got to high school, some of the networks of folks from California and these other areas in New Orleans and Texas kind of like we're we're we're braiding with each other.
50:17
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was very familiar and I also you know had been affiliated with I don't know you know like to say like you're a gang member.
50:24
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a structured like
50:28
[SPEAKER_01]: out kind of like initiation.
50:29
[SPEAKER_01]: It was just like clicks, right?
50:31
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you name yourself.
50:32
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you part of the take and like things, right?
50:35
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I was always kind of in that.
50:38
[SPEAKER_01]: And then in my 20s, you know, I had a life changing experience.
50:43
[SPEAKER_01]: I talked about that in the first episode, you know, there was gang violence.
50:46
[SPEAKER_01]: I got shot, like it was just going to put that out there, right?
50:50
[SPEAKER_01]: And then, so the book is kind of like this journey, I pull the pieces of the journey of my life to how did I end up being a getting a PhD and becoming a professor, but throughout that journey was the first my first love, right, who had been incarcerated, when we were young.
51:08
[SPEAKER_01]: and what happened when we disconnected and then we reconnected.
51:11
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it is a love story.
51:12
[SPEAKER_01]: The title of the book is Love Letters to the Dirty South, right?
51:17
[SPEAKER_01]: And like Dirty South's, you know, we grew up, right?
51:22
[SPEAKER_01]: That's how like Southerners, like claimed our region.
51:26
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, there are, you know, and we have so many love letters to each other and and so there's a use some of the writings in the letters, you know, so you'll get to read some of our letters, you know, like, what were you guys writing about how to develop within letters, so it's the arc of my life in this journey.
51:52
[SPEAKER_01]: But it's about it's through the lens of this relationship and how it ends and how it, you know, the things that are social and political that came up through us being connected together.
52:07
[SPEAKER_00]: I look forward to talking more about the book because we can use and dedicate a whole
52:20
[SPEAKER_00]: what is actually in the book without giving it away.
52:23
[SPEAKER_00]: But you know, there's, I'm always interested in the process because you know, typically some of these things take and cost five to 10 years of your life.
52:32
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
52:33
[SPEAKER_00]: I, I, I, I guess it's, it's incredible.
52:36
[SPEAKER_00]: But then, you know,
52:37
[SPEAKER_00]: I like to hear from the author's perspective how these things come about, how the books finally get finished and what motivates us to cross the finish line.
52:48
[SPEAKER_00]: What drives you to put words to paper and commit to something so arduous.
52:55
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, well, I'll just say one more thing about like just a snippet to just a little part of that is earlier when you're talking about like, how do you deal with like people who are like negative and all of that and against your opposite side and I'm like, I'm just too busy just too busy to deal with them because, you know, when you when you could dedicate yourself to like this writing life.
53:18
[SPEAKER_01]: At last year, I was literally working three jobs.
53:22
[SPEAKER_01]: I was in a daytime professor in, you know, was the other part of my hours of doing collective freedom.
53:29
[SPEAKER_01]: And at night, 10 p.m., we left p.m. to 1 a, 2 a.m., like I was writing.
53:36
[SPEAKER_01]: And the book was done, but it was like editing, like the editor wanted
53:41
[SPEAKER_01]: change it or you don't want it revision.
53:44
[SPEAKER_01]: So, and before that, when I was writing, yeah, same thing, you know, you live your life.
53:49
[SPEAKER_01]: And like late in the night, you're just saying, I was sacrificing 10, you know, eight, nine kind of clock till midnight, sometimes.
53:56
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had to tell people, I'm so sorry.
53:58
[SPEAKER_01]: I cannot make dinner right now.
54:00
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't make it to dinner with you, or I can't make it out to this event.
54:04
[SPEAKER_01]: I gave up a lot of social life, right?
54:06
[SPEAKER_01]: So,
54:07
[SPEAKER_01]: You have to be prepared for that.
54:09
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot of quiet alone time that you will need to to endure this process.
54:18
[SPEAKER_00]: Dr. Talha, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.
54:25
[SPEAKER_00]: It is a soul comforting, not S-O comforting, but S-O-U-L comforting for me.
54:32
[SPEAKER_00]: It's comforting my soul to know that you're fighting the good fight out there, and that you're putting in the work of really, it's the justice work that we need today.
54:47
[SPEAKER_00]: And thank you for the work that you do.
54:50
[SPEAKER_01]: So I will plug the website, if anyone has any questions, you know, if you know somebody, if you don't, and you just want to learn like what is this history and and what collective freedom is doing, it's collective-freedom.org.
55:07
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, we're on Instagram, but it's very,
55:10
[SPEAKER_01]: a very quiet, very close little things at collective freedom group is the handle.
55:18
[SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that we're launching is a virtual support group for partners of people whose partners have been deported.
55:30
[SPEAKER_01]: because, you know, trying to start your life over as a single parent or a long distance international relationship, you know, what does that look like?
55:41
[SPEAKER_01]: What does maintaining family look like?
55:45
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what's your individual trauma that you're trying to work through because your husband, your boyfriend, your spouse, your partner,
55:53
[SPEAKER_01]: is in another country now.
55:55
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're hosting those and it's virtual and it's free.
56:00
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you know anybody who might want to join in, it's going to be run by a licensed healthcare met a marriage family therapist.
56:09
[SPEAKER_01]: So a licensed counselor.
56:11
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
56:13
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's on there too.
56:14
[SPEAKER_01]: It's called Resilient Hearts.
56:16
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much, Tau.
56:19
[SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Ken.
56:20
[SPEAKER_01]: All right, see you again soon.
56:22
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to the Vietnamese with Kenneth Wynne.
56:25
[SPEAKER_00]: Special thanks to Brittany Tran, to Jane Wynne, Catherine Wynne, Tina Fam, Sydney Jamie, and Crystal Tran.
56:33
[SPEAKER_00]: Please find us on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok at the Vietnamese podcast.