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#384 Jason Flom with Stephanie Spurgeon · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: In January of twenty twenty two, we brought you the
0:03
Speaker 1: story of Stephanie Spurgeon. It's a shaken Baby syndrome story,
0:06
Speaker 1: and she was joined by her attorneys, Seth Miller of
0:09
Speaker 1: the Innison's Project of Florida as well as Alison Miller
0:12
Speaker 1: no relation, who recently ran for Florida's state attorney. But
0:15
Speaker 1: before we share her story again, we first wanted to
0:19
Speaker 1: share a recording of when we caught up with Stephanie
0:21
Speaker 1: at the twenty twenty three Innocence Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona.
0:26
Speaker 1: For those who are not familiar with this event, it's
0:28
Speaker 1: an annual gathering of the innocence community from all over
0:31
Speaker 1: the country ex houonnaies, attorneys, advocates, and folks like us
0:36
Speaker 1: from Lava for Good Podcasts. So Stephanie sat down with
0:39
Speaker 1: us for a chat and I'm going to let her
0:41
Speaker 1: fill you in on what she's been up to here
0:45
Speaker 1: at the Innocence Network Conference with one of my favorite humans,
0:48
Speaker 1: Stephanie Spurgeon. And I'm sure everybody's wondering that what are
0:53
Speaker 1: you up to now? Besides smiling and walking around making
0:56
Speaker 1: everybody happier.
0:57
Speaker 2: I'm absolutely enjoying freedom We've spent a lot of time
1:01
Speaker 2: trying to just reconnect with everybody. It's been a lot
1:05
Speaker 2: of years that were lost, so it's been really good
1:08
Speaker 2: to kind of really make up family time. Also, I
1:11
Speaker 2: advocated for Alison Miller, who was running for state attorney.
1:14
Speaker 2: I've done some public speaking, which I absolutely love to do.
1:18
Speaker 2: Recently I did Miami Andison's clinic in Boston College down
1:22
Speaker 2: in Jupiter, Florida, and my daughter and I started our
1:25
Speaker 2: own little podcast.
1:26
Speaker 1: Huh.
1:27
Speaker 2: It's called freedom Fighters, So you know it's we film
1:31
Speaker 2: right there at our car.
1:33
Speaker 1: I have a funny feeling we might be linking that
1:35
Speaker 1: at our bio. So freedom fighter is a great name
1:37
Speaker 1: for a podcast and I'm looking forward to hearing it myself.
1:41
Speaker 1: It's gonna give me something good to listen to on
1:42
Speaker 1: the plane. Very good.
1:44
Speaker 3: It's very uncensored.
1:45
Speaker 1: And do you I mean, I know you're a freedom
1:48
Speaker 1: fighter and I know you get joy from helping other people,
1:51
Speaker 1: both what do you do for yourself?
1:53
Speaker 2: You know? Actually my main focus is I'm advocating for
1:57
Speaker 2: Michael Giovo, who's wrongfully convicted in Florida as much like mine.
2:01
Speaker 2: He was convicted in Florida and Penellas County. Doctor Sally
2:04
Speaker 2: Smith was his expert, and he was convicted two months
2:07
Speaker 2: after mine, and he has a life sentence.
2:09
Speaker 1: That's the same quote unquote expert that helped to wrongfully
2:12
Speaker 1: convict you.
2:13
Speaker 2: That is correct. I was lucky enough. I work for
2:17
Speaker 2: Keith Law Firm now, so I am working in the
2:19
Speaker 2: legal industry. We primarily do civil law. But it gives
2:22
Speaker 2: me a little bit more knowledge, more power to try
2:24
Speaker 2: to be able to fight for him. So I'm hoping
2:26
Speaker 2: maybe to develop some bills that won't maybe allow him
2:29
Speaker 2: to get a second chance to her to have his
2:32
Speaker 2: case hurt again.
2:33
Speaker 1: Well, it's fantastic, and listen, you are a beacon of
2:36
Speaker 1: light and you inspire me and all the rest of
2:40
Speaker 1: us to work harder as s Marter. So just keep
2:43
Speaker 1: on being you, you.
2:44
Speaker 2: Know, thank you. It's a pleasure being here. Thank you.
2:49
Speaker 1: As we wrapped up the interview, a kind of only
2:51
Speaker 1: at the Innocence Network conference, moment happened. A woman named
2:55
Speaker 1: Michelle Lopez approached us when she had heard Stephanie's story
2:59
Speaker 1: back in jail twenty twenty two on this podcast. She
3:02
Speaker 1: reached out to Stephanie over social media. Michelle's son, Trey Clay,
3:07
Speaker 1: is currently enduring a similar nightmare in California, and Stephanie's
3:11
Speaker 1: story brought some comfort to this grieving mother. And although
3:14
Speaker 1: they had been in contact before, the conference was their
3:17
Speaker 1: first chance to meet in person and kind of a
3:21
Speaker 1: serendipitous encounter for all of us. We'll have the Justice
3:25
Speaker 1: for Trey Clay Instagram account LinkedIn the bio, along with
3:28
Speaker 1: some info about Michael Giovo's case and Stephanie's podcast Freedom Fighters,
3:33
Speaker 1: and now, without any further ado, the incredible story of
3:37
Speaker 1: Stephanie Spurgeon. Stephanie Spurgeon was a married mother of two
3:45
Speaker 1: and a licensed childcare provider who had been running a
3:47
Speaker 1: daycare facility from her home in Florida for fifteen years.
3:50
Speaker 1: On August twenty first, two thousand and eight, one year
3:53
Speaker 1: old Maria Harris spent her first day at Stephanie's daycare.
3:57
Speaker 1: Maria's grandmother had picked up a sleeping Maria that day,
4:01
Speaker 1: but soon after had noticed that Maria was unresponsive and
4:04
Speaker 1: in distress. Ignoring other potential root causes and relying on
4:08
Speaker 1: the junk science of shaken baby syndrome, doctors opined that
4:12
Speaker 1: brain bleed and swelling were signs of child abuse, placing
4:16
Speaker 1: blame on the brand new childcare provider, Stephanie Spurgeon, and
4:19
Speaker 1: when Maria died seven days later, the charges were upgraded
4:23
Speaker 1: to murder, but with the lack of external injuries, the
4:27
Speaker 1: state changed its shaken baby theory, concocting a new narrative
4:30
Speaker 1: in which Maria had been repeatedly struck against the soft surface.
4:34
Speaker 1: The defense failed to pivot to this new theory, instead
4:38
Speaker 1: presenting a shaken baby syndrome defense, and with the states
4:41
Speaker 1: uncontested yet totally dubious soft impact theory, the jury found
4:46
Speaker 1: Stephanie guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter and sentenced
4:50
Speaker 1: her to fifteen years in prison. With the help of
4:53
Speaker 1: multiple innocence projects and a current candidate for state's attorney,
4:57
Speaker 1: Stephanie was able to present the proper expert testimon This
5:00
Speaker 1: proved the state's ludicrous soft impact theory, win a new trial,
5:04
Speaker 1: and ultimately be set free after nine long years. This
5:10
Speaker 1: is wrathful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. Today's episode
5:27
Speaker 1: is well, I'm going to be honest with you, it's
5:30
Speaker 1: terrifying because this is a story that is both unique
5:36
Speaker 1: and also somehow not uncommon, and it involves an innocent
5:41
Speaker 1: woman working at a daycare center who got caught up
5:45
Speaker 1: in the criminal legal system for no reason of her
5:48
Speaker 1: own making. I'm going to introduce our incredible guest today
5:52
Speaker 1: because we have three, including the woman who lived through
5:56
Speaker 1: this nightmare herself, Stephanie Spurgeon. First, I'm going to introduce
6:00
Speaker 1: are very distinguished group. Seth Miller is here. He's the
6:04
Speaker 1: executive director of the Innocence Project of Florida. It does
6:07
Speaker 1: incredible work day in and day out, pushing huge boulders
6:11
Speaker 1: uphills of justice. So Seth, thanks for being here.
6:14
Speaker 4: Thanks Jason thrilled to be here.
6:16
Speaker 1: And with him and with us. Is Alison Miller no relation.
6:21
Speaker 1: She is an attorney with Ripley Wisenhunt and is also
6:24
Speaker 1: currently running for the State's Attorney Office of Florida, and
6:29
Speaker 1: I hope people will support her because we need people
6:32
Speaker 1: like you in positions like that. But for the time being,
6:35
Speaker 1: we're happy to have you right where you are and
6:37
Speaker 1: right here on the mic. So Alison Miller, welcome to
6:39
Speaker 1: Ronfel Conviction. Thank you so much for having me and Stephanie.
6:43
Speaker 1: What can I say? I feel like the whole human
6:45
Speaker 1: race shows you a debt of gratitude for sharing your
6:48
Speaker 1: story and for just being the strong, courageous woman that
6:52
Speaker 1: you are. And I appreciate you being here. So Stephanie,
6:56
Speaker 1: to you. Also, welcome to Ronfel Conviction.
6:58
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason. It's my pleasure sure.
7:00
Speaker 1: And so Stephanie, this is the story that we've heard
7:03
Speaker 1: time and time again where somebody like yourself is doing
7:06
Speaker 1: you know, let's call it what it is, essential work.
7:09
Speaker 1: Where would we be as a society without daycare centers?
7:13
Speaker 1: The working world would grind to a halt. And yet
7:16
Speaker 1: people like you too often end up in situations like
7:19
Speaker 1: the one we're talking about today. I mean, it really
7:23
Speaker 1: makes my heart hurt. But let's please take us back
7:26
Speaker 1: before this incident happened in two thousand and eight. Can
7:28
Speaker 1: you tell us what your life was like back then.
7:32
Speaker 2: I was married for nineteen years and I had two
7:35
Speaker 2: beautiful children. We had a beautiful life. We were a
7:38
Speaker 2: well knit family. We did a lot of family vacations.
7:42
Speaker 2: I was a licensing home daycare provider for fifteen years.
7:46
Speaker 2: The parents that would come into my home, they became
7:49
Speaker 2: part of my family, Their kids became part of my family.
7:53
Speaker 2: We would celebrate holidays together and different things. It was
7:57
Speaker 2: very fulfilling. I was able to work with children, I
8:00
Speaker 2: was able to be at home with my own children.
8:03
Speaker 2: I decided at one point to go into special needs children.
8:07
Speaker 2: So I took lots of children that came in who
8:10
Speaker 2: had speech issues or different disabilities, and I grew a
8:16
Speaker 2: real hart for these kids because not a lot of
8:19
Speaker 2: places would accept any special needs children. And then I
8:22
Speaker 2: decided to branch off a little bit further and start
8:26
Speaker 2: taking teenage parent children. So Esther Harris was actually the
8:32
Speaker 2: very first teen mom that I took. She was seventeen
8:35
Speaker 2: years old when I was introduced to her and Maria.
8:40
Speaker 1: And so, not only are you taking care of other
8:42
Speaker 1: people's kids, you're doing it in your own home, opening
8:44
Speaker 1: your doors and your heart, and taking care of kids
8:47
Speaker 1: who have issues with other people. Well might not want
8:50
Speaker 1: to open their home too, or their hearts, right, I mean,
8:53
Speaker 1: so this case, I'd like to say it happened a
8:56
Speaker 1: long time ago, but it really didn't, right. I Mean,
8:59
Speaker 1: it would feel a little bit better if it was
9:01
Speaker 1: back before we had science evolved to a place that
9:05
Speaker 1: it was at in two thousand and eight, which is
9:06
Speaker 1: when this tragedy occurred, of course, and I said tragedy,
9:09
Speaker 1: not crime. That's deliberate, because that's what it was. And
9:13
Speaker 1: so Seth, do you want to set the stage for
9:15
Speaker 1: us of what happened on that awful day and how
9:17
Speaker 1: this became a criminal matter.
9:19
Speaker 4: When I think about these cases when a child dies,
9:22
Speaker 4: a lot of times the folks involved in trying to
9:25
Speaker 4: figure out how that happened kind of go nutty. They
9:28
Speaker 4: aren't able to take sober views of what might have
9:30
Speaker 4: happened to that child. And that's what happened here in
9:33
Speaker 4: this case. Stephie Spurgeon was running an in home daycare
9:36
Speaker 4: at her home. It was better business Bureau rated, had
9:39
Speaker 4: generations worth of children who come through the daycare who
9:42
Speaker 4: really positive experiences, their families had positive experiences. And the child,
9:46
Speaker 4: Maria Harris, was our first day at the daycare. And
9:50
Speaker 4: yet on this day, this poor child was suffering from
9:54
Speaker 4: what was clearly a distress, a medical situation.
9:57
Speaker 2: When Maria's grandmother, Patricia came and picked her up that day,
10:01
Speaker 2: Maria had been sleeping. So I reached into the pack
10:05
Speaker 2: and play and I picked her up, and she kind
10:07
Speaker 2: of stirred in my arms, and I passed her to Patricia,
10:10
Speaker 2: and she stirred in Patricia's arms, and then Patricia took
10:13
Speaker 2: her and placed her in the car and drove her home.
10:15
Speaker 2: Thirty minutes later is when we got the phone call Maria.
10:20
Speaker 2: I guess was deteriorating as she was sleeping, and I
10:23
Speaker 2: was unaware that there was any issue because I simply
10:26
Speaker 2: thought she was asleep.
10:28
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, the child was growing up.
10:31
Speaker 4: The child was crying and was clearly kind of lifeless
10:34
Speaker 4: in a lot of ways, and called nine one one.
10:37
Speaker 4: It took the child to the hospital and when they
10:39
Speaker 4: were on the way to the hospital, they tested the
10:40
Speaker 4: child's blood sugar and the child had a high four
10:43
Speaker 4: hundreds of blood sugar. And I don't know if any
10:45
Speaker 4: of y'all have diabetes or test your blood sugar regularly,
10:48
Speaker 4: but that is four to five times the normal level.
10:51
Speaker 4: So this child is in major distress. What they do
10:53
Speaker 4: when they get the child to the hospital is they
10:56
Speaker 4: realized after doing a number of tests on the child
10:58
Speaker 4: that the child's suffering from a brain lead a subdural
11:01
Speaker 4: hematoma and the child has brain swelling and that has
11:05
Speaker 4: led to the child having retinal hemorrhages and instead of
11:09
Speaker 4: treating the child for what looked like a diabetic situation,
11:13
Speaker 4: a diabetic distress because the child had the subdual heemo tone,
11:17
Speaker 4: because the child had this brain swelling and the retinal hemorrhages.
11:20
Speaker 4: The doctors immediately assumed that this was an abusive situation
11:25
Speaker 4: because they thought that this was the three ingredients, the
11:28
Speaker 4: triad as they call it, cause by taking baby syndrome
11:31
Speaker 4: or what is more commonly known now is abusive head trauma.
11:34
Speaker 4: So that had a chance to try to treat this
11:36
Speaker 4: child to maybe ameliorate or even prevent a bigger problem
11:40
Speaker 4: or death, to treat this metabolic, this diabetic situation, but
11:44
Speaker 4: instead they assumed it was abuse, and we were often
11:46
Speaker 4: running taking a medical situation and elevating it to the crime,
11:50
Speaker 4: and unfortunately, this child died seven days later.
11:53
Speaker 1: The idea that this might have been prevented if they
11:57
Speaker 1: just simply focused on the problem at hand, rather than
12:00
Speaker 1: turning this into wild accusations of child abuse makes my
12:04
Speaker 1: blood boil. I mean, and I think it's worth mentioning.
12:07
Speaker 1: As we've covered extensively on our show Junk Science and
12:11
Speaker 1: other episodes of Wrongful Conviction as well, just a general
12:15
Speaker 1: overview of the theory of shaking baby syndrome or SBS now.
12:19
Speaker 1: It was initially introduced as a hypothesis by British pediatric
12:23
Speaker 1: neurosurgeon doctor Norman guth Kelch, who was trying to explain
12:27
Speaker 1: a cause for inexplicable child deaths in which a child
12:31
Speaker 1: or baby, toddler whatever had presented subdural hematoma otherwise known
12:35
Speaker 1: as bleeding in the brain, retinal hemorrhage, so you know,
12:38
Speaker 1: bleeding in the eyes and brain swelling or cerebral edemon Now.
12:42
Speaker 1: Doctor Cuthkelch hypothesized that perhaps a typical method of scolding
12:46
Speaker 1: a child in Great Britain at the time, giving the
12:48
Speaker 1: child a good shake, maybe that was the cause for
12:51
Speaker 1: unintended or unexplained child deaths in which this triad of
12:55
Speaker 1: medical findings occurred. He never was able to prove this,
12:57
Speaker 1: He just hypothesized it and caution parents against the practice. Understandably, however,
13:03
Speaker 1: since that hypothesis, the criminal legal system just sort of
13:06
Speaker 1: ran them up with this idea, right leaping to the
13:08
Speaker 1: conclusion that any child presenting those symptoms, especially if there
13:13
Speaker 1: was any other bruisings, had been fatally abused like sort
13:15
Speaker 1: of one size fits all which is ridiculous, and that
13:18
Speaker 1: the person less responsible for the child therefore must have
13:21
Speaker 1: been the culprit.
13:22
Speaker 3: And I think we as people understanding the inner workings
13:25
Speaker 3: of the human mind, when bad things happen, we want
13:29
Speaker 3: to be able to say there's someone or something responsible
13:32
Speaker 3: for that bad thing happening. And so where there was
13:35
Speaker 3: a legitimate science maybe at the inception, this idea has
13:40
Speaker 3: been horribly bastardized to get convictions involving usually the death
13:46
Speaker 3: of infants or toddlers, and Stephanie's case is a perfect
13:49
Speaker 3: example of that, where there is legitimate scientific evidence that
13:54
Speaker 3: this child was in medical distress that went ignored by
13:58
Speaker 3: medical professionals because it is easier to say, oh, this
14:02
Speaker 3: child must have been harmed.
14:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's worth noting that in recent years, as
14:06
Speaker 1: doctors in larger and larger numbers, I've been challenging the
14:09
Speaker 1: notion of shaking baby syndrome. They've identified, get this, over
14:13
Speaker 1: eighty different preexisting conditions that can cause what they call
14:17
Speaker 1: the triad of findings that were historically just attributed to
14:19
Speaker 1: shaking baby syndrome almost automatically. Right, So the science is there,
14:24
Speaker 1: but I mean, I wish I could say when the
14:27
Speaker 1: criminal legal system is going to catch up, it's entirely
14:30
Speaker 1: possible that it never will because science, let's face, it
14:33
Speaker 1: looks forward, while the legal system only looks backward at precedent,
14:39
Speaker 1: sort of the opposite. And so Stephanie, if you could
14:41
Speaker 1: take us back to when you were arrested, what all
14:44
Speaker 1: happened before the trial.
14:46
Speaker 2: My first arrest was August twenty first, I was twenty second,
14:51
Speaker 2: maybe two thousand and eight. I was arrested on aggravated
14:54
Speaker 2: child abuse. I went to Neells County Jail. I was
14:58
Speaker 2: housed in a solitaire cell because of course my face
15:02
Speaker 2: was on the news, and I was able to bond
15:04
Speaker 2: out the next day. I think it's important to say
15:07
Speaker 2: my bond was fifty thousand dollars, and my parents got
15:11
Speaker 2: an attorney for me, which was fifty thousand dollars, So
15:15
Speaker 2: right away we're in the hole. I came home and
15:20
Speaker 2: was unable to have a daycare. Of course, so I
15:23
Speaker 2: had no income, so that became an issue immediately. Maria
15:28
Speaker 2: passed away seven days later. I was rearrested six weeks later,
15:32
Speaker 2: on November eighth, two thousand and eight, on capitol felony
15:37
Speaker 2: murder I had just taken my son to his bus
15:41
Speaker 2: stop in the morning, and when I came back home,
15:43
Speaker 2: I put up in a driveway like three squad cars
15:47
Speaker 2: surrounded me, and everybody come racing out, screaming and yelling,
15:51
Speaker 2: and put me in cuffs and put me in the
15:52
Speaker 2: back of the cruiser and took me back to County Jail.
15:56
Speaker 2: When they brought me in from booking that day, they
15:59
Speaker 2: brought me straight to Solitaire cell in the lobby area,
16:04
Speaker 2: and I could look out and see my face on
16:06
Speaker 2: the news. And as I'm looking at my face on
16:08
Speaker 2: the news, I'm looking at the other inmates that are
16:11
Speaker 2: in there getting processed in, and they're all looking back
16:14
Speaker 2: at me and that Solitaire cell. So it was a
16:17
Speaker 2: very scary situation. There was a grand jury hearing, and
16:22
Speaker 2: the attorney that I had that was fifty thousand dollars.
16:26
Speaker 2: He wouldn't try a capital case, so we had to
16:28
Speaker 2: hire another firm and they cost us one hundred thousand.
16:33
Speaker 1: I ended up.
16:33
Speaker 2: Getting indicted and then we moved for a bond hearing.
16:38
Speaker 2: My bond hearing was successful, except it was three hundred
16:42
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars with an angle monitor and no
16:46
Speaker 2: contact with any child in the age of twelve. I
16:50
Speaker 2: thought there was no way that my family was ever
16:53
Speaker 2: going to be able to come up with those kind
16:54
Speaker 2: of funds because we had already spent so much. They
16:59
Speaker 2: did come up with it. They fundraised, They drained all
17:03
Speaker 2: of your savings, accounts, everything, and one night, on January
17:08
Speaker 2: twenty sixth, two thousand and nine, after I think eighty
17:11
Speaker 2: nine days in a solitaire cell, I was released at
17:14
Speaker 2: two am, so I was able to come home and
17:17
Speaker 2: wake both of my kids up. My daughter and I
17:20
Speaker 2: ended up sitting on the front porch in a rocking
17:23
Speaker 2: chair and watch the sunrise together. It was very hard
17:26
Speaker 2: to sleep because I kept thinking I was going to
17:29
Speaker 2: wake up and be back in there. The nightmare would
17:31
Speaker 2: be there again.
17:43
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18:28
Speaker 4: There were signals even before the trial that the state
18:32
Speaker 4: was going to move away from a shaken baby syndrome diagnosis.
18:35
Speaker 4: The real issue in this case is that we had
18:37
Speaker 4: these presentations in the brain and the skull, and the
18:41
Speaker 4: doctors were used to saying, oh, this could only be abused,
18:44
Speaker 4: it's shaking baby syndrome. The problem is these things are
18:47
Speaker 4: normally associated with signs of abuse, external injuries, and this
18:51
Speaker 4: child did not have a scratch or a bruis, or
18:53
Speaker 4: not even a single mark on her. And so the
18:56
Speaker 4: doctors are trying to figure out, well, how can we
18:58
Speaker 4: make this abuse and explain away the fact that there's
19:01
Speaker 4: no visual injuries.
19:02
Speaker 1: On this child.
19:03
Speaker 4: And this is how what they call the child abuse
19:06
Speaker 4: pediatrician I'm using air quotes. She came up with the
19:09
Speaker 4: theory that, well, the reason there's no injuries that are
19:12
Speaker 4: apparent on the outside is because the child was slammed
19:16
Speaker 4: repeatedly on a soft surface like a crib mattress.
19:20
Speaker 1: So this case is nutty, right, because you don't see
19:24
Speaker 1: it very often that the state changes their theory sort
19:28
Speaker 1: of midstream, right, So then they came up with this
19:31
Speaker 1: soft impact theory. But the crazy thing is it seemed
19:35
Speaker 1: like her attorneys were defending a different theory than the
19:39
Speaker 1: one that the state was trying to convict her on.
19:41
Speaker 1: Am I mistaken about that? That's exactly right.
19:44
Speaker 4: The defense attorney was very focused on shaking inmy syndrome.
19:47
Speaker 4: And when I deposed this attorney in post conviction, I
19:50
Speaker 4: asked him about cases that he had done previously, and
19:53
Speaker 4: what I found out was that he had done a
19:55
Speaker 4: series of shaking baby syndrome cases where he got favorable
19:58
Speaker 4: results from his clients. So he had his pat experts
20:02
Speaker 4: in a formula for how he would approach these cases.
20:04
Speaker 4: But he simply failed to learn his own case well
20:08
Speaker 4: enough to know that he could not simply employ the
20:11
Speaker 4: same formula that he employed in other cases where shaken
20:14
Speaker 4: baby syndrome was a theory. Because not all cases are
20:17
Speaker 4: the same, they're not creating equal In this case, the
20:19
Speaker 4: state had already abandoned the shaking baby syndrome theory for
20:22
Speaker 4: this seft impact theory, and so we're pressing long in
20:25
Speaker 4: a case they get the biomechanical expert. They do the
20:28
Speaker 4: thing that a lot of people don't do. They get
20:30
Speaker 4: the right expert, they prepare that expert, but they prepare
20:33
Speaker 4: them for the wrong theory. And there was this striking
20:37
Speaker 4: moment in the trial where after the defense attorney sits down,
20:41
Speaker 4: he thinks he's done a great job with the biomechanical expert.
20:44
Speaker 4: And the first question the state asked the expert when
20:47
Speaker 4: they get up is who told you that this was
20:49
Speaker 4: a shaken baby syndrome case. It was a devastating moment
20:53
Speaker 4: in the trial. And of course he could have put
20:55
Speaker 4: his expert back up, got them to prepare all the calculations,
20:59
Speaker 4: and he failed to do that because he just didn't
21:01
Speaker 4: even understand his own case.
21:03
Speaker 3: The State of Florida in their prosecution, if Stephanie relied
21:06
Speaker 3: on one particular pediatrician that they frequently rely on. It's
21:10
Speaker 3: so hard because these doctors and experts come in to
21:15
Speaker 3: court couched with credibility and reliability, and especially in areas
21:20
Speaker 3: like Vanillas and Pasco County where we've used the same
21:23
Speaker 3: experts forever, it's hard helping whomever the FactFinder is, jurors
21:28
Speaker 3: or judges to understand this is a misapplication of science.
21:33
Speaker 3: And so you get doctors that come in and they
21:35
Speaker 3: use words that we as average folks don't understand, and
21:40
Speaker 3: it sounds like, well, it must be true. And then
21:43
Speaker 3: at the end it's with the conclusion that this child
21:46
Speaker 3: died as a result of intentionally inflicted abuse of trauma.
21:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, so the deck is truly stacked against even someone
21:54
Speaker 1: like Stephanie. Right, she gets swept under this title wive
21:57
Speaker 1: of nonsense that comes from preconceived biases and notions and things. Right,
22:02
Speaker 1: because someone sees her in the defendan's chair, they automatically
22:05
Speaker 1: assume somebody who was there must have done something to
22:07
Speaker 1: be there. Right, there's that you have to overcome. Then,
22:09
Speaker 1: as you said, there's all the medical stuff. A guy
22:11
Speaker 1: gets up there and reads his credentials sounds very impressive,
22:15
Speaker 1: and then spouting these theories that most jurors are not
22:18
Speaker 1: equipped to understand or unpacked. So they think they're doing
22:22
Speaker 1: the right thing. And I've have empathy for them too
22:24
Speaker 1: for making these mistakes. And Stephanie, you've lived through this,
22:27
Speaker 1: So I want to get back to you. What was
22:29
Speaker 1: this like from your perspective as a mom nineteen years married?
22:33
Speaker 1: You know, upstanding citizen to say the least.
22:36
Speaker 2: Well, Jason, I was absolutely devastating, to say the least.
22:40
Speaker 2: I kept waiting for truth to prevail. I knew that
22:44
Speaker 2: I didn't hurt Maria, so I knew that something would
22:49
Speaker 2: eventually come to surface that would show what had happened.
22:53
Speaker 2: It was terrifying, terrifying for me, It was terrifying for
22:56
Speaker 2: my children, It was terrifying for my then husband. It
23:00
Speaker 2: was awful, and in the end, it destroyed our whole family.
23:04
Speaker 2: I got a divorce, went to prison, and my kids
23:08
Speaker 2: grew up without their mom.
23:09
Speaker 1: How old were the kids when this happened.
23:12
Speaker 2: My son was twelve and my daughter was seventeen.
23:17
Speaker 1: So, Stephanie, when the jury went out, can you tell
23:21
Speaker 1: us what you were thinking at that time? Did you
23:24
Speaker 1: think that finally this wrong would be righted and this
23:27
Speaker 1: nightmare would come to an end.
23:29
Speaker 2: I just kept thinking that eventually they would realize that
23:33
Speaker 2: there's no way that I did this, That nobody heard Maria.
23:38
Speaker 2: There had to have been something else. They jury deliberated
23:42
Speaker 2: for twenty one and a half hours before they came
23:45
Speaker 2: back with an acquittal of capital filmy murder, but a
23:48
Speaker 2: guilty charge in manslaughter I heard a horrible noise from
23:55
Speaker 2: behind me, and it was my son crying out. It
24:00
Speaker 2: just felt like I was in a fog. I remember
24:04
Speaker 2: mouthing I love you to my family before they alled
24:08
Speaker 2: me out of a curtroom and put me back in
24:10
Speaker 2: that solitarire cell. I got to prison, I was absolutely
24:25
Speaker 2: terrified and had to learn very quickly how to adapt
24:29
Speaker 2: In a maximum security prison. You have to always pay
24:32
Speaker 2: attention to what's going around you, and you had to
24:35
Speaker 2: kind of learn how to bob and weave between people.
24:39
Speaker 2: You didn't want to draw any attention to yourself. It's
24:42
Speaker 2: a very scary place. And not only is it scary
24:45
Speaker 2: from the other inmates, but not all the officers are
24:48
Speaker 2: on the up and up. The officers are also very scary.
24:52
Speaker 2: So I got to prison, and naturally I was quite angry,
24:58
Speaker 2: and I knew that if I I didn't do something
25:01
Speaker 2: with my anger, I was just going to go down
25:03
Speaker 2: a dark path. So I threw myself into learning about
25:08
Speaker 2: my own case, and I got certified and became a
25:12
Speaker 2: law clerk, which of course is how I met Amanda Brumfield.
25:16
Speaker 2: We were co workers in the law library. We both
25:19
Speaker 2: left the maximum security prison and we found ourselves at
25:22
Speaker 2: a faith and character based war camp and that was
25:26
Speaker 2: a much safer environment, albeit it did not have AC
25:30
Speaker 2: so it was extremely excruciatingly hot. But I traded the
25:35
Speaker 2: heat for the safety and I worked with Amanda in
25:39
Speaker 2: the law library and we did everything we could for
25:41
Speaker 2: other people in there, meanwhile, both learning each other's case
25:46
Speaker 2: as well as our own case. And that's how I survived.
25:50
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know where. I don't know where they
25:52
Speaker 1: make people like you that find this sort of otherworldly strength, spirit, courage,
25:57
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. But I'm just glad
25:59
Speaker 1: you did. And I'm glad that Amanda Broomfield did as well.
26:02
Speaker 1: I mean, she just recently joined us here on Rampel Convictions,
26:05
Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm so freaking glad that you both found
26:09
Speaker 1: the strength to pull through and be here.
26:12
Speaker 2: Well. I had a good support system, Jason. I had
26:15
Speaker 2: wonderful parents and my brother and my children, and they
26:18
Speaker 2: made sure I had all of my needs because you know,
26:21
Speaker 2: in prison they don't give you shampoo and deodor and
26:25
Speaker 2: things like that. You have to buy these things. Thankfully,
26:28
Speaker 2: I had an amazing support system that are still my
26:31
Speaker 2: support system. And you know, it was very touching because
26:36
Speaker 2: not only did I have a support system for my family,
26:39
Speaker 2: but my clients and the childcare. All of my daycare
26:43
Speaker 2: babies that I raised grew up and sent me checks
26:48
Speaker 2: while I was in prison to help pay for whatever
26:51
Speaker 2: I needed in there. So these daycare babies that I
26:53
Speaker 2: raised were taken care of being while I was in prison.
26:57
Speaker 1: Well that's full circle, isn't it. I mean, it's a
26:59
Speaker 1: little bit of light in a miserable dark place and
27:03
Speaker 1: speaks to your character as well. So Seth Allison, how
27:07
Speaker 1: did this then eventually make its way to your desks?
27:12
Speaker 1: And how did the process finally right itself?
27:15
Speaker 4: You know what's unique I think about this case is
27:18
Speaker 4: that it got to us so much earlier than a
27:21
Speaker 4: lot of other cases. I've gotten guys out of prison
27:24
Speaker 4: who have spent thirty or thirty five or over forty
27:26
Speaker 4: years in prison, and once you find out about that
27:30
Speaker 4: twenty or thirty years down the line, it's.
27:31
Speaker 1: Very hard to rectify that.
27:33
Speaker 4: It's a reclamation project that sometimes is beset with procedural
27:36
Speaker 4: problems that doesn't really allow you to turn it around.
27:38
Speaker 4: But here we were able to get in on the
27:41
Speaker 4: initial post conviction motion, where you have all of the
27:45
Speaker 4: potential claims available to you have no procedural problems. And
27:48
Speaker 4: so we only did that because Stephanie wrote to us
27:51
Speaker 4: almost immediately after her initial appeal was denied. And what
27:55
Speaker 4: was interesting is that she had written to us. I
27:57
Speaker 4: was litigating another case with Kate Json and we come
28:00
Speaker 4: to find out that this other person's case, Amanda Brownfield,
28:04
Speaker 4: and Stephanie were friends in prison, and that's kind of
28:06
Speaker 4: how Stephanie got hooked up with us. I remember being
28:09
Speaker 4: in the car driving home from a different prison visit
28:11
Speaker 4: talking to Kate about Stephanie's application and saying, hey, you
28:15
Speaker 4: want to do another one, and that was kind of like, yeah,
28:17
Speaker 4: let's get it. This case has some crazy issues in it.
28:20
Speaker 4: So what became clear to us is what we've already
28:22
Speaker 4: talked about. The lawyer didn't use the biomechanical engineer that
28:26
Speaker 4: he had at his disposal to rebut the state's soft
28:29
Speaker 4: impact theory how this supposed abuse happened. What happens is
28:32
Speaker 4: that juries are looking for an answer, and the prosecution
28:36
Speaker 4: gave them an answer. It's incumbent upon the defense to
28:39
Speaker 4: rebut that if you don't, your client's going to be convicted.
28:42
Speaker 4: And So what happened here is that not only did
28:45
Speaker 4: they not give them an answer, they put up another
28:48
Speaker 4: expert who agreed that this was from violent trauma. So
28:51
Speaker 4: the defense expert agreed is from violent trauma. And they
28:53
Speaker 4: never went into any of them doing medical issues that
28:55
Speaker 4: were very clear that existed.
28:57
Speaker 1: So that was kind of where we focused.
28:58
Speaker 4: Can we get the biomic anaut engineered to look at
29:00
Speaker 4: the studies, do the calculations to prove that slamming on
29:03
Speaker 4: a soft surface can't cause these injuries? And can we
29:07
Speaker 4: talk to pediatric endochronologists, pediatric genesis, forensic pathologists or clinical
29:12
Speaker 4: pathologists a neuroadiologists to look at all of this material
29:16
Speaker 4: in the case and help us understand whether this could
29:18
Speaker 4: even be trauma and if it wasn't trauma, could it
29:20
Speaker 4: come from another underlying medical issue, particularly issue of related diabetes.
29:25
Speaker 4: And when we were able to do that, what we
29:27
Speaker 4: found out is that we had an expert, a biomechanical expert,
29:29
Speaker 4: who was able to say with supreme confidence that this
29:32
Speaker 4: slamming on a soft service could not have scientifically caused
29:35
Speaker 4: this child's injuries because he did the preeminent study of
29:38
Speaker 4: just this type of scenario and it proven that a
29:42
Speaker 4: human of Stephanie's size can't create enough force to cause
29:46
Speaker 4: those injuries in that child's brain without also causing massive
29:51
Speaker 4: external injuries. Of course there were not, and so scientifically
29:54
Speaker 4: they couldn't do that. Our experts together showed that this
29:58
Speaker 4: was a situation where the child had a blood clot
30:01
Speaker 4: in their brain. The blood clot in their brain caused
30:04
Speaker 4: spillover bleeding into the brain because blood couldn't get out
30:08
Speaker 4: of the brain back to the other parts of the body,
30:10
Speaker 4: and that caused swelling in the brain, which caused the
30:12
Speaker 4: retinal hemorrhages which caused this child's disease. And all of
30:15
Speaker 4: this was caused by a thicking of the blood due
30:17
Speaker 4: to a diabetic situation. And so we have this evidence now.
30:21
Speaker 4: But the key was to show that the trial council
30:23
Speaker 4: violated Stephanie's constitutional right to counsel and effective assistance of
30:27
Speaker 4: that council by not bringing about all of this information,
30:30
Speaker 4: all of which would prove that there was no crime
30:33
Speaker 4: here and that this child died from a tragic a
30:36
Speaker 4: medical situation that was just undiagnosed.
30:38
Speaker 1: So that's what we did. What was it like, Stephanie,
30:41
Speaker 1: when all of a sudden, you've got sort of the
30:43
Speaker 1: dream team, right, I mean the Florida Innocence Project. Those
30:46
Speaker 1: of us who work in the Innis's movement know that
30:48
Speaker 1: the Florida in Project is held in the highest regard.
30:52
Speaker 1: So when you got the letter or a call or
30:55
Speaker 1: whatever it was saying that they were going to represent you,
30:58
Speaker 1: what was that like?
31:00
Speaker 2: It was a phone call from Seth at the Florida
31:02
Speaker 2: Innocence Project and he patched through Kate Judson at that time,
31:06
Speaker 2: she was with the Innocence Project of Wisconsin now with
31:10
Speaker 2: the Center for Integrity and Forensic Science. And I also
31:14
Speaker 2: had Josh Teffer, who is with the Exoneration Project out
31:18
Speaker 2: of Chicago. So it was unbelievable to know that not
31:23
Speaker 2: only did I manage to get one innocence project, but
31:26
Speaker 2: I managed to get three projects all working. And I
31:30
Speaker 2: guess I just kind of like threw up my hands
31:32
Speaker 2: and was just like finally, finally, like I knew there
31:36
Speaker 2: had to be something there, and finally somebody sounded.
31:40
Speaker 1: Right, all of a sudden, you've got the literal dream
31:43
Speaker 1: team on your side. And Allison, can you take us
31:46
Speaker 1: through how you got involved in what eventually led to
31:50
Speaker 1: Stephanie's freedom. I love this. This This is my favorite
31:52
Speaker 1: part of the story.
31:54
Speaker 3: So Seth, with Kate and Josh did that lengthy post
31:57
Speaker 3: conviction hearing in front of Judge Burgess, which denied. They appealed,
32:01
Speaker 3: and the Second District Court of Appeal overturned that denial
32:05
Speaker 3: of the post conviction motion, finding Stephanie's original trial lawyers
32:09
Speaker 3: to be ineffective. Seth and I have worked on a
32:11
Speaker 3: number of different cases or just sort of floated in
32:14
Speaker 3: the same circles myself at the trial court level and
32:17
Speaker 3: set more in the post conviction world. I could remember
32:21
Speaker 3: when Stephanie's case was overturned, Seth and I having this
32:25
Speaker 3: meeting of the minds where he was like, you know,
32:27
Speaker 3: myself and Kate and Josh obviously still want to be involved,
32:31
Speaker 3: but we need somebody who does trial work. And I
32:34
Speaker 3: was like, well, I would love to be involved. And
32:36
Speaker 3: so that's when I got appointed. Was like, okay, we're
32:39
Speaker 3: back for a new trial. And instead of the State
32:41
Speaker 3: of Florida saying we concede, the state indicated it intended
32:46
Speaker 3: to retry Stephanie, and so we were like, bring it,
32:49
Speaker 3: y'all are prosecuting an innocent woman, and we're going to
32:53
Speaker 3: embarrass you was the mentality that we had. It was
32:56
Speaker 3: all new prosecutors, all new defense attorneys, and we were
33:00
Speaker 3: gearing up for a battle. Frankly, to make a very
33:04
Speaker 3: long story short, the state would not agree to not
33:08
Speaker 3: go forward, but to bring an end to this for everyone,
33:13
Speaker 3: the Harris family, Spurgeon family.
33:16
Speaker 1: The state was.
33:16
Speaker 3: Willing to accept what we call an Alfred please where
33:19
Speaker 3: a defendant pleads guilty but is still exerting his or
33:22
Speaker 3: her innocence, saying, I'm pleading guilty but because I believe
33:25
Speaker 3: it's in my best interest to do so, not because
33:28
Speaker 3: I'm legally admitting to doing what I'm accused of. And
33:32
Speaker 3: I think we all felt like because of all the
33:34
Speaker 3: shortcomings in the criminal justice system as they exist, the
33:37
Speaker 3: over reliance on this pediatrician who doesn't seem to understand science,
33:41
Speaker 3: I couldn't tell Stephanie there was no chance that a
33:45
Speaker 3: jury would convict her again. Stephanie wanted her life back,
33:48
Speaker 3: she wanted her family back, she wanted to be able
33:51
Speaker 3: to put her toes in the ocean, and so for
33:53
Speaker 3: everyone's sake, she agreed to enter this Alfred plea and
33:57
Speaker 3: bring resolution to the case.
33:59
Speaker 1: So look, no one could fall at you, Stephanie for
34:02
Speaker 1: making the decision that you made. People make it all
34:05
Speaker 1: the time. I can find a lot of faults in
34:07
Speaker 1: the state for dangling that sword over your head again.
34:11
Speaker 1: So when did you come home, Stephanie? And can you
34:14
Speaker 1: tell us what it was like walking out into the
34:17
Speaker 1: fresh air? Give us as much as you can.
34:20
Speaker 2: Well, it was definitely hot. I had an entourage if
34:23
Speaker 2: people out there along with Netflix. We're doing a series,
34:27
Speaker 2: so everybody was filming. I got in the car and
34:30
Speaker 2: the first thing they did was hand me a cell phone.
34:33
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do with it. I think
34:34
Speaker 2: they were just so excited to finally give me some
34:37
Speaker 2: piece of technology. And I went to Wahwahs. My kids
34:41
Speaker 2: had always told me about Wahwahs. And when I walked in,
34:45
Speaker 2: it was just so overwhelming, all the lights and all
34:48
Speaker 2: the things to look at. And I know that probably
34:50
Speaker 2: sounds so silly, but when you've been trapped inside for
34:53
Speaker 2: so long, and I must look like I was from
34:56
Speaker 2: outer space because my eyes are staring at the lights,
35:00
Speaker 2: I'm sure my mouth was open. It was interesting. I
35:03
Speaker 2: allowed Netflix to come home with me and film me
35:05
Speaker 2: coming in and that was a really difficult thing to
35:09
Speaker 2: allow them to film me at my most weakest, vulnerable
35:13
Speaker 2: moment of happy tears. That I did allow it because
35:17
Speaker 2: I wanted to help bring more knowledge when the series finally.
35:22
Speaker 1: Does air, amen to that, and I think we all
35:25
Speaker 1: who work in this field for those happy moments. So Stephanie,
35:30
Speaker 1: you a top of all the other unspeakable treatment that
35:33
Speaker 1: you had to endure, you also, as you mentioned, had
35:36
Speaker 1: to spend a king's ransom, you know, to try to
35:39
Speaker 1: defend yourself hundreds of thousands of dollars. You weren't a
35:42
Speaker 1: rich person going into this. So we now have a
35:45
Speaker 1: bigger support system. Right over one hundred thousand people who
35:47
Speaker 1: are listening to your voice now. I'm sure many of
35:50
Speaker 1: them would like to do something to help you if
35:52
Speaker 1: they could. Is there some way for people to donate,
35:55
Speaker 1: or is there anything else that you could think of
35:57
Speaker 1: that they might be able to do.
35:58
Speaker 2: I have a GoFundMe and I would appreciate anything that
36:03
Speaker 2: anybody could do to help me get back on my feet.
36:05
Speaker 2: I've been home a year now and really haven't been
36:09
Speaker 2: able to build up a whole lot, so I would
36:11
Speaker 2: appreciate that. Thank you, Jason, Yes.
36:13
Speaker 1: And we will link to that in a bio of
36:15
Speaker 1: our episode. So please take a moment right now. If
36:18
Speaker 1: you're listening and you have something you can spare, please
36:21
Speaker 1: go to the link in the bio and donate, and
36:23
Speaker 1: we're going to join you in doing that and trying
36:26
Speaker 1: to help make this next period of your life a
36:29
Speaker 1: little bit less difficult. So now we turn to my
36:34
Speaker 1: favorite part of the show, and everyone who's a regular
36:37
Speaker 1: listener knows what to expect, and by that I mean
36:40
Speaker 1: closing arguments, and for anyone who's new to this, closing
36:44
Speaker 1: arguments works very simply. First, I once again think our
36:48
Speaker 1: incredible guests today, Alison Miller, attorney and candidate for State's
36:54
Speaker 1: Attorney in the State of Florida, Seth Miller, executive director
36:57
Speaker 1: of the Florida Innocence Project and personal hero of mine,
37:01
Speaker 1: and Stephanie Spurge in my new personal hero. And what
37:05
Speaker 1: happens next is I turned my microphone off and leave
37:09
Speaker 1: each of yours on so that you can share any
37:12
Speaker 1: final thoughts that we haven't maybe covered yet, or anything
37:15
Speaker 1: else you want to say. I'm just going to kick
37:17
Speaker 1: back in my chair. Let's start with Seth and Allison
37:21
Speaker 1: and then just hand the mic off to Stephanie and
37:24
Speaker 1: she'll take us out.
37:25
Speaker 4: So one of the things that I think about coming
37:27
Speaker 4: out of these cases and working on others now is
37:29
Speaker 4: how these things keep happening. We talked about it here,
37:31
Speaker 4: and I wonder what we can do to prevent them
37:34
Speaker 4: from happening in the future, and how we can end
37:38
Speaker 4: what is like a cottage industry of medical fabrication, and
37:42
Speaker 4: so that to me is the next step of this.
37:44
Speaker 4: We should continue to get people out of prison who
37:47
Speaker 4: are innocent, who put in prison for accidents or for
37:51
Speaker 4: things that have medical causes that weren't even crimes at all.
37:54
Speaker 4: This is the leading cause of wrongful conviction and women.
37:56
Speaker 4: We have to also think about how we can prevent
37:58
Speaker 4: it in the first place, and to be a change
38:01
Speaker 4: in the medical community. If medical doctors are still being
38:04
Speaker 4: trained every day in medical school to make the same
38:06
Speaker 4: mistakes that the medical doctors in this case and other
38:09
Speaker 4: cases have made, and to me, that's the next stage
38:12
Speaker 4: of how do we prevent this and really just eradicate
38:15
Speaker 4: this fabrication from the criminal legal system.
38:18
Speaker 3: Jason, I want to echo what you said, is that
38:21
Speaker 3: Seth and Stephanie especially are personal heroes of mine as well,
38:26
Speaker 3: and Stephanie is part of the reason why I am
38:29
Speaker 3: running for state attorney. If people like us don't do
38:32
Speaker 3: this type of work, then nothing will ever change. People
38:37
Speaker 3: have to be more involved in their local downbout elections,
38:41
Speaker 3: whether it's called the district attorney or the state attorney.
38:44
Speaker 3: We have to take ownership in what prosecution looks like
38:48
Speaker 3: in our jurisdictions, or this sort of thing will continue
38:51
Speaker 3: to perpetuate. And so, if elected state Attorney, I don't
38:55
Speaker 3: intend to prosecute child abuse cases based exclusively on the
39:00
Speaker 3: testimony of doctor Sally Smith. I've already enlisted people like
39:03
Speaker 3: Seth and Kate understanding we're going to have to continue
39:06
Speaker 3: prosecuting child abuse. Of course, everyone wants child abuse prosecuted,
39:10
Speaker 3: but we need to do it with reliable forensic evidence.
39:12
Speaker 3: And we have seen repeatedly in this jurisdiction at the
39:15
Speaker 3: very least, that this pediatric is a danger and everyone
39:19
Speaker 3: frankly seems willing to ignore it.
39:21
Speaker 1: Stephanie closing arguments, well, I would.
39:24
Speaker 2: Like to start by thanking Allison. I appreciate your confidence
39:28
Speaker 2: in me coming into this. I also, of course have
39:31
Speaker 2: to thank Seth the Florida Ennison's Project, Kate Judson from
39:35
Speaker 2: the Center of Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Josh Teffer from
39:40
Speaker 2: the Exoneration Project, all of their staff, the experts, and
39:44
Speaker 2: all the law students. Because it took an army to
39:48
Speaker 2: bring me home. And I'd also like to thank all
39:51
Speaker 2: the people who donate and support organizations like this, because
39:56
Speaker 2: if it wasn't for your support, people like me would
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Speaker 2: still be trapped behind those prison gates. I'd like to
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Speaker 2: urge law enforcement and medical staff to not assume abuse
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Speaker 2: when they see a triad of injuries, to not race
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Speaker 2: in emotionally charged and be more diligent. I hope that
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Speaker 2: my story brings awareness to shaking baby syndrome and abuse
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Speaker 2: and head trauma. I appreciate you allowing me to share
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Speaker 2: my story for the first time today. Thank you Jason, Thank.
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Speaker 1: You for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank
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Speaker 1: our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn, and
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Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in
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Speaker 1: this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer
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Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at
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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on
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Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good.
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Speaker 1: On all three platforms, you can also follow me on
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Speaker 1: both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction
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Speaker 1: is the production of Lava for Good podcasts and association
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Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one