Latest / SEA of Startups / EP 22 - Meta's $2.5B "Butterfly Effect"

Transcript

EP 22 - Meta's $2.5B "Butterfly Effect" · SEA of Startups

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, let's get into it.
• 0:02
  Meta has just dropped $2.5 billion on a startup that is only 9
• 0:07
  months old,
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: based out of Singapore,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: called Manus.
• 0:12
  It's really the fastest 0-100 mil ARR run that's been seen in
• 0:18
  this region,
• 0:19
  for sure.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the question can't be helped,
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: but is this now the new blueprint for every founder in the region?
• 0:27
  Or is Zuck just buying a geopolitical headache by navigating
• 0:34
  this China transplant
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: into Singapore tightrope that he seems to have gotten himself onto?
• 0:42
  I'm not sure about what's going on with this big trillionaires
• 0:46
  who does Zuck,
• 0:46
  this Musk.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Their names seem to be pretty, like I said earlier, punable.
• 0:53
  Think about it,
• 0:54
  Zuck,
• 0:54
  Musk,
• 0:55
  and it's all,
• 0:55
  I mean,
• 0:56
  okay,
• 0:56
  that's overgeneralizing,
• 0:58
  but anyway.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this is not a headache.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like a brain transplant.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Look, we have spent two years talking about chat box.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_00: Manus is an agent.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I still can't quite with the name.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know why it sounds okay.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: You don't ask to write an email about a flight.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: You tell it,
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: find me a flight under 500 bucks to Bali,
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_00: book it and put the confirmation in my Slack.
• 1:21
  You know,
• 1:22
  it's got 80 million virtual computers running in the cloud
• 1:25
  doing the work for you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's the, you know, action era.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone's still talking about it.
• 1:30
  You know,
• 1:31
  Meta just literally bought hands up,
• 1:33
  bought a new,
• 1:34
  a different pair of hands,
• 1:35
  really.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And it's,
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: let's be honest,
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: it's the most expensive Singapore wash cycle we have ever seen.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Beijing startup, Lion City jersey on, Meta check clears.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not just any M&A story.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like a geopolitical case study,
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: a category reset for AI and,
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: a blueprint for founders across Asia.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get into it.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: this is basically the crux of the matter here is that,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: this Singapore washing of the company,
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: is it really not going to end up triggering the geopolitical headache,
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: There is a logic to it that we are seeing a US-China tech decoupling.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Singapore is the kind of the safe ground in the midst of it.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So for companies that are having global ambitions,
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: You likely have to exit out and Singapore is a logical extension to it.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: when you look at just last year,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: at least the numbers that I came across,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: there's like 1,500 other firms that basically did similar.
• 2:59
  What they're proving is that when you have solid tech and you
• 3:02
  can find product
• 3:03
  market fit and you can find this sort of lightning in a bottle
• 3:07
  that doesn't come
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: across so often,
• 3:10
  you can move fast enough and you can exit to big tech and that
• 3:13
  the geography is
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: just a footnote in regards to it.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll see, we'll see.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's still a lot of, as with any deals, especially ones like this,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: Even after a deal is agreed to,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: even if a deal is closed,
• 3:32
  regulators have a tendency of coming around and knocking on
• 3:35
  your door and still
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: making life difficult.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's probably still going to be things,
• 3:42
  whether it's happening in the back door and we're just
• 3:45
  completely unaware of it.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: I would assume that something is still happening around here.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: If they let it happen,
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: China's MOVCOM is already sniffing around,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: like I said,
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: saying this tech belongs to the mainland.
• 3:57
  And Meta had to literally de-China the cap table,
• 4:01
  buying out Tencent and Hongshan.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to be a hostage negotiation, you know.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's still a win for the local system.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've got 100 engineers in Singapore now sitting on Meta stock.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the next generation of founders.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: for our backyard.
• 4:19
  And,
• 4:20
  you know,
• 4:20
  the Manus Mafia is going to fund the next 10 years of SeaTac.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, let's break down the data, the Singapore washing playbook.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: Man, when did the Singapore washing playbook come around?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's so...
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is weird,
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: but...
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And why your next intern might actually be a Meta-owned agent?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Again, you see, Meta is pretty much... Have you used Manus by any chance?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Nah, it's just too many AI stuff to use.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: I like Claude, though.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I like Claude.
• 4:48
  I have not tried Meta because at one point when I started using
• 4:50
  Meta,
• 4:50
  it was just meh.
• 4:51
  So I didn't really want to look into it anymore,
• 4:54
  but I think I should know.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Meta is a llama model.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: I never really got in.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: But Manus was quite good in regards to doing a number of activities.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: Claude has definitely moved forward,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: but I know a number of people that are very diehard on leveraging Manus.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: And it gains super wide popularity.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And grew very fast.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a competitive space.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And mind you, we are in kind of the why not try it sort of phase.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: Let's rewind for a second.
• 5:34
  Just for anyone that is listening in and might be living under
• 5:39
  a rock and hasn't
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: seen this news story.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: Just to recap, Meta acquired Manus.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: Manus is originally a China company,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: moved to Singapore,
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_01: basically scrubbed themselves clean,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: disconnected.
• 5:55
  Only less than a year later,
• 5:57
  boom,
• 5:57
  two and a half billion dollar acquisition.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Super fast.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Launched in March 2025.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hits 100 mil in eight months.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Faster than Kirster.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: Faster than ChatGPT's Enterprise Wing, at least.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: The product is agentic AI.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of asking it,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: something telling you how to do something,
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Manus actually can open up the browser,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: find you what you need,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: do it for you.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's agentic.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: It actually is an execution layer.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And if you put this in context of other recent activity,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Meta literally just bought Scale AI not too long ago.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the only other bigger deal besides Scale AI was way back when,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: when they bought WhatsApp,
• 6:46
  which was also a very tiny team and everyone was saying that
• 6:49
  they overpaid for it.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, all of those same people can't get off of their WhatsApp.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, yeah.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's an interesting deal.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Meta has been super aggressive, super aggressive.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: They bought Scale AI.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: They've been throwing around like these hundred million,
• 7:15
  multiple hundreds of million dollar paid packages in order to
• 7:19
  try and recruit top
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: talent.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Their head AI researcher left when he got put under...
• 7:26
  23 year old or maybe he was 26 or whatever whatever age he was
• 7:32
  he was like I'm not
• 7:33
  doing this then he did a whole bunch of like grumpy commentary
• 7:38
  in the news about
• 7:40
  where the direction is but Meta has tons of money so like in
• 7:45
  all honesty like two
• 7:47
  and a half billion dollars for Meta is like finding coins in
• 7:53
  your couch cushions
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter to them.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: In all honesty,
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: it sounds like a big acquisition,
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: but the amount of free cash flow that Meta creates is just astronomical.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: So these figures don't even matter.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: it does sound like even by the name matter,
• 8:21
  I think it was derived from this Buddhist Pali word called
• 8:25
  loving kindness.
• 8:26
  So I guess he must be spreading love too much that he's getting
• 8:29
  all his karma,
• 8:30
  good karma back.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: you know, all this is just coin money.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: You never know, right?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because it is a form of,
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: it is a Pali word actually,
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just with two T's and it's just,
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: but meta is just one T.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: But meta also means big,
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: so I don't know for sure.
• 8:44
  I think his meta was when he was dumping tons of money into the
• 8:48
  metaverse and all
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: of that just basically went poof.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: I actually,
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_00: when I was running a networking event,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: Manus happened to be one of the sponsors of it.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I saw the demo of it and it's really powerful.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: The way they're doing it is really aggressive.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Just for attendees alone, we got like...
• 9:12
  three months of free credits for the first for the first three
• 9:15
  months just by us
• 9:16
  watching it and scanning so they are trying to get as much of
• 9:19
  like for us like data
• 9:20
  points to get people to use it and that's why they could scale
• 9:23
  so fast I mean
• 9:24
  literally if you think about it they launched in March and end
• 9:27
  of the year in eight
• 9:29
  months they you know they they hit 100 mil ARR it's like anyone
• 9:33
  who got not who got
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: pregnant and now gave birth literally you can get 100
• 9:38
  million arr that's crazy um um yeah um but then you know i
• 9:45
  don't think meta given
• 9:47
  it's loose like to your metaphor of saying like 2.5 bill
• 9:51
  doesn't really matter much
• 9:53
  to them it feels like they didn't just they didn't buy arr
• 9:56
  multiples it's more like
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: they just bought time um
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: they're trying to acquire talent because,
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 10:05
  I don't think they've had a high level of success in creating
• 10:09
  it themselves.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: The pieces fit.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you could make a logical argument on this.
• 10:17
  And let's say,
• 10:17
  for example,
• 10:18
  that they're buying it in order to improve their ads product.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: Facebook ads,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: it's a little bit of a pain to be honest with you,
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: but it's a giant moneymaker.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 10:30
  imagine if you could end up layering on a Gentic product that
• 10:36
  enables all of these
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: brands and all of these marketers to more easily decide,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: create the lookalike audiences,
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_01: do the research on who they're targeting,
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: create the copy,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: do all of these different aspects.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And they could charge.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: They could charge more.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure if that's the use case that they're going after.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just kind of like going off the top of my head of like,
• 11:01
  what would I use Manus for on Facebook specifically or on meta
• 11:05
  suite of a suite of
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: products?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't think that this deal isn't really about chat.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like action.
• 11:12
  Like,
• 11:13
  as much as you say,
• 11:15
  especially there's a lot of saying right now for entrepreneurs,
• 11:18
  right?
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Ideas are cheap.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I agree fully with it, but it's always about execution.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's some parallel to this as well.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just drawing it.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: LLMs help you think, but agents replace labor, right?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's a bit of the valuation shift.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: We've moved from tokens per minute to tasks per outcome.
• 11:40
  Menace runs tens of millions of virtual machines in the cloud
• 11:44
  doing work on your
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: behalf,
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: which is exactly why...
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: To a certain extent,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: from a skeptical point of view,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm being skeptical about it,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: sorry,
• 11:52
  which is exactly why regulators are pretty nervous because once
• 11:56
  software acts,
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: it stops being just a software.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why this deal,
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 12:02
  kind of resets the pricing a bit because a 25 million ARR agent
• 12:06
  company isn't 150
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: million company anymore.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like a 500 mil to 1B strategic asset because you
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: pretty much just reprised the entire agent category globally.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where I kind of see it because it's like,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: it's pretty much the single largest pure play AI exit in C history.
• 12:27
  It validates the Singapore HQ strategy for deep tech founder in
• 12:31
  Asia,
• 12:31
  right?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: And like we said earlier, the meta mafia is coming.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: 120 employees, mostly in SG.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a lot of fresh liquid capital hitting the local angel market.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And like today,
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: your post,
• 12:42
  you were saying angel investing is one of the most expensive
• 12:45
  hobbies ever.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: There is some truth to that,
• 12:49
  because I think we've highlighted this in our previous podcast
• 12:52
  episodes as well,
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: whereby...
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of just last year alone,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Singapore accounted for 91% of all tech funding in C.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Singapore taking the lead.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then AI infrastructure, massive spillover.
• 13:06
  AI data investments in SG is hitting,
• 13:10
  in Singapore,
• 13:10
  it's hitting $810 million in 2025.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's projected to double in, what, the next five years?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I think this kind of changed things a lot.
• 13:23
  Like it's as though inflation is another level inflation just
• 13:27
  from a deal basis.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's going to make.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a bit.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I hope that there's the the mafia coming out of this.
• 13:39
  I hope that this ends up mincing a bunch of people that are
• 13:43
  going to dump some of
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: those gains back into startups.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: The skeptic in me is looking around and saying,
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: we have plenty of people that have plenty of liquidity.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: We've had some exits in the past.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: We have some well-to-do founders.
• 13:59
  But we have a few different mafias that we can point to in the
• 14:05
  sense of people that
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: go off and found new companies.
• 14:09
  But from the angel side,
• 14:11
  it's hard to point to it and be like,
• 14:13
  who's the founders fund?
• 14:15
  Who's who's the sort of who's who's the grayscale or some of
• 14:21
  these other storied
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: venture firms that basically got spun out of the same.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really have those as of yet.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: We don't really have this sort of super active super angel that spun out.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hopeful.
• 14:37
  and that some liquidity into the market and this playing into
• 14:42
  it hopefully drives it.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: But at the very least,
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: I hope,
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_01: and I think this is probably more realistic,
• 14:51
  is that a lot of the young founders that are out there that are
• 14:54
  now building an AI,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: and I think we've kind of,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: because of the tooling,
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: we've essentially democratized your ability to
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the hurdle on the build side has lowered.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: You still need some technical capability.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not easy.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the build side has been de-risked.
• 15:13
  I hope what this starts showing is that you can build global
• 15:19
  scale from out here.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: In Southeast Asia.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Singapore HQ, sure.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, I don't care about the origins.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because I talk the same game in regards to like,
• 15:34
  if you're in Malaysia and you start getting big enough and you
• 15:37
  need to tap into the
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: big pockets,
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: you should have a Singapore HQ anyways.
• 15:41
  You should take advantage of how good the regulatory and the
• 15:45
  tax regime and the
• 15:46
  predictability and just the clarity of the black and white of
• 15:50
  the operating
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: ecosystem.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Go there.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:53
  If you're in the Philippines,
• 15:54
  build there,
• 15:55
  keep your operating base there.
• 15:56
  But ultimately,
• 15:57
  you're going to put the legal,
• 15:58
  regulatory,
• 15:59
  et cetera,
• 15:59
  et cetera.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you're going to rotate that over to Singapore.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: So from my standpoint, it's basically same, same, but different.
• 16:08
  But I hope that this leads as an example to all of the people
• 16:11
  that are building
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: across the region right now.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, hey, let's have a me too moment.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: And all these founders are like, I can do it too.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: 800 mil in nine months?
• 16:21
  I want to see whether or not I can hit that revenue run rate in
• 16:29
  six months.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not everyone's going to get that lightning in a bottle.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd prefer if they just focus on building really cool businesses.
• 16:38
  But hopefully it acts as an inspiration,
• 16:40
  I guess,
• 16:41
  is the other way that I should be putting it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's like the way it's done right now, it's democratic.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: What do you call it?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Democratizing.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: I have a short tongue.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I'm not going to say that.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's making that happen for Nazis.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: It started off with what?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Instagram, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And Instagram is now also part of Meta.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now it's Meta.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: AI is being created.
• 17:08
  democratized yes finally um so what i'm trying to say it's like
• 17:13
  if you draw it to
• 17:14
  another parallel again as you were talking about how you know
• 17:19
  hq should be set to
• 17:21
  um singapore and how you didn't you don't really think much
• 17:24
  about where the origins
• 17:25
  are somehow or they kind of brought me to the whole the
• 17:28
  american dream like it
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: doesn't matter where you're from
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: As long as you work hard, you get to where you are, you get that dream.
• 17:35
  So to a certain extent,
• 17:37
  and it echoes this movie called The Singaporean Dream.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's on Netflix as well.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: See again, movie nerd here again.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of it.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm trying to say is,
• 17:47
  I just feel like some things are always coming back full circle
• 17:50
  again and again.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's just how you see it.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So this is one example of it.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought I had to say it anyway.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: But let's talk about the Singapore washing debate.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: Is it really a Singapore company?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, because it does matter to a certain extent.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Perception matters, whether or not, you know, where it comes from.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It does matter, but it doesn't have to matter that much.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: But then again, let's talk about the uncomfortable part.
• 18:12
  So Manus started as Monica.im in Beijing,
• 18:15
  and they relocated to Singapore in mid last year.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: they deleted all of their Chinese social footprints,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: and they laid off 80 plus stuff in China,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: and they cleaned a cab table.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like we said earlier,
• 18:28
  that's pretty much they're risking and they're not alone
• 18:30
  because we've seen this
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: playbook with other companies as well,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have TikTok, we have Sheen, we have TerraHop as well.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And Singapore pretty much,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: given where they are in this part of the world,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: in Asia,
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: it's become a jurisdiction of optionality.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: If the code was written in Mandarin,
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: but the text written is in Singapore dollars,
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: my question is what national fee is this company?
• 18:54
  Because it's like the way I see it,
• 18:55
  it's like software doesn't have a citizenship anymore.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: It just has compliance because it depends on where they are.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: They have to comply with the local rules and regulations.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:08
  it's basically Singapore is again in a very great place that is
• 19:12
  monetizing its
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: neutrality.
• 19:15
  think about it like it is right like because of where it is is
• 19:19
  regulations that are
• 19:20
  pretty you know pretty black and white and it kind of attracts
• 19:26
  so many people
• 19:26
  coming and it's like the gateway to the next level and china is
• 19:31
  de-risking that by
• 19:32
  coming to singapore singapore neutralizes it and push it out
• 19:36
  pushes it out into the
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: great world of international markets
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think there's two things on this.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: One,
• 19:45
  there's a bunch of VCs that are now like jumping on the
• 19:49
  bandwagon and looking for
• 19:51
  that China to global bridge and trying to see whether or not
• 19:54
  they can lure more of
• 19:56
  these wonderful startups and these great founders and bring
• 20:03
  them over to Singapore
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: and say,
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: let's clean you up and get you ready for the global stage.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's definitely players that are trying to take that strategy.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:16
  On the question of is it really a Singapore company,
• 20:20
  I would say no,
• 20:22
  to be honest with you.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because, I mean, it's not.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't start there.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: It didn't incubate there.
• 20:29
  It came when it was ready for prime time and trying to clean
• 20:34
  itself up for larger fundraising.
• 20:37
  And it just so happened that things struck and took off and
• 20:39
  then it got acquired.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: too short of a time period, in all honesty, in order to really say it.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: From my standpoint,
• 20:49
  in order to say a company is representative of the jurisdiction
• 20:54
  that it's in,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be founded there.
• 20:59
  We all call Grab a Singapore company,
• 21:01
  even though it was not founded there.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: But...
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's formative years in building were there, you know?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: mind you,
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: it was spread over a much longer time frame,
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: so maybe I'm biased in regards to,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: length of time or whatever.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:23
  But,
• 21:23
  you know,
• 21:24
  I mean,
• 21:24
  they were incubated under the umbrella of another company.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: So there was some like legacy of what was going on with Manus in the past
• 21:32
  underneath another entity along with another product and then
• 21:36
  just kind of carved
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: out.
• 21:38
  But like,
• 21:39
  whether it's really a Singapore company or not,
• 21:42
  does it really matter?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: In all honesty?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Not really.
• 21:48
  Like,
• 21:48
  I know people that have moved jurisdiction just because they
• 21:52
  want a better place to live.
• 21:55
  Does it mean that their company is homeless or like without a
• 22:00
  nationality?
• 22:01
  Because like,
• 22:02
  you know,
• 22:03
  they left the prior so they can't be associated with that.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: They're not accepted in the new one.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: To be honest with you, it doesn't matter.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: The company's not a person.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have a nationality.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe it has a formal company registration and incorporation.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a legal document that says what the jurisdiction is.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: But it doesn't matter.
• 22:26
  What matters from my standpoint is where are the people and
• 22:31
  what is going to be the
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: residual impact on the ecosystem that they're in?
• 22:37
  And I'm optimistic that the signaling effect that this has will
• 22:42
  play positively for
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: the local ecosystem,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: that there's an example of a company that was acquired in this region.
• 22:50
  It shows that big companies will still look at Southeast Asia
• 22:54
  to make acquisitions.
• 22:57
  It shows that founders from no matter where you're at can still
• 23:02
  use Southeast Asia
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: as a base to hit global markets.
• 23:07
  It shows a number of these positive characteristics that I
• 23:12
  don't think are...
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: well accepted enough because we don't have enough examples.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so having a big mega one like this, sure, it's probably a one-off.
• 23:23
  We're probably not going to see this repeated next month and
• 23:25
  next month and next month.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or hopefully we see another one this year.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_01: But at least it's something.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not a Singapore company.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Singapore domiciled eventually.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: No, it doesn't.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 23:44
  Hopefully that money gets recycled into this ecosystem and the
• 23:49
  newly rich and
• 23:50
  hopefully they had some good stock options for the employees
• 23:53
  that were there and
• 23:54
  the staff and like they start going off and like spraying that
• 23:57
  money around in
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: angel investments and whatnot.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, hopefully it works for the ecosystem, like I said.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: One can only hope, right?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because of this part of the world, everything is pretty slow.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: But this has been pretty eye-opening, really refreshing.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully it would, you know...
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: enable more companies to come.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: with Singapore being the gateway,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: it could potentially provide more opportunities such as this to come on.
• 24:29
  It kind of puts us onto the stage again,
• 24:31
  the international stage on a different level too.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: That, hey, we are not slowing down.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: We are still there.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: We still exist, rather.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: But then again,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: if you put it from a geopolitical point of view,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: then,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: China's Ministry of Commerce,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: MOFCOM,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: is pretty much sniffing around.
• 24:49
  It's already sniffing around and they're investigating whether
• 24:52
  agentic AI violates the...
• 24:56
  2024-2025 Export Control Catalog,
• 24:58
  arguing that behavior,
• 24:59
  not code,
• 25:01
  is restricted.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's new and dangerous because if this deal gets blocked,
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: it pretty much sets a precedent,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Rather, software behavior becomes export controlled.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's pretty bad for cross-border SaaS.
• 25:18
  And on the US side,
• 25:19
  you know,
• 25:19
  Meta has to prove that there are no backdoors,
• 25:22
  right?
• 25:23
  and that this isn't an acquisition it's more like a hostage
• 25:27
  negotiation with
• 25:29
  regulators watching regulators watching sorry and you know the
• 25:34
  the next ai war
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: won't be fought in github it might be fought at customs maybe
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's one point to look at because Singapore is a neutral zone,
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: but the zone is getting narrower.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: if the lines are not clear,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: the boundaries are not clear,
• 25:55
  big countries such as China where they're huge will start
• 26:00
  sniffing and it's not
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: going to help the ecosystem as well,
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like, if China blocks the deal, then it becomes a zombie.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Two American for China, two Chinese for the US.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's a nice catch, yeah.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: See?
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean...
• 26:22
  I think inevitably there's going to be some positioning
• 26:27
  politically around this.
• 26:29
  I'm not convinced that there's a lot that's going to happen at
• 26:33
  the end of the day.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think this is probably going to go through clean.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think behind the scenes, you're exactly right.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think that on the China side, they're going to be looking at it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean...
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: to be honest with you,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: because of the geopolitics,
• 26:49
  no US politician wants to see American technology bought by
• 26:54
  Chinese and no Chinese
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: want to see their technology bought by Americans.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the nature of the bipolar system that's going on right now.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good way to put it.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is as such.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, but like at the end of it, you know,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: If China tries to block it, what's their avenues in order to block it?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because the U.S.
• 27:25
  government is probably not going to acquiesce and say you can
• 27:28
  dictate what our
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: companies can and cannot acquire.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Presumably the bank accounts are not there.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: The transfer of money is not there,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: so I'm not sure what their long-arm capability of going after them.
• 27:43
  Now,
• 27:43
  mind you,
• 27:44
  they could say there are citizens,
• 27:46
  we could not renew their passports.
• 27:48
  They're probably clever enough to have bought second passports
• 27:52
  or something elsewhere anyways.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: So there's probably something there,
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: but I think at the end of it,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: it's unlikely that much is going to end up happening.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: I do think that METS is going to have to prove on the U.S.
• 28:06
  side that there's no security risks or otherwise in regards to
• 28:10
  the technology
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: because that's always sensitive.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I think at the end of the day,
• 28:16
  it's just another thing that's going to make politicians start
• 28:20
  puffing out their
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: chest and talking tough people.
• 28:24
  Yeah,
• 28:25
  and,
• 28:26
  you know,
• 28:26
  the speed matters in AI,
• 28:29
  you know,
• 28:30
  and timing matters even more.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: And if Singapore isn't a launchpad, then it's pretty much the...
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, if Singapore isn't the destination, then it's a launchpad.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I see it.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is a launchpad.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's a gateway, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said,
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: nationality doesn't matter,
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: but the next border rocket in AI will,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: be defined by execution and not the language,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: not the nationality.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: But
• 29:05
  about meta we talk about geopolitics talk about valuations and
• 29:07
  regulators but if
• 29:08
  you're a founder listening to this giving it a spin within
• 29:12
  southeast asia the real
• 29:14
  question is much simpler so what does this then really actually
• 29:18
  unlock for me
• 29:20
  because like you said earlier right like menace isn't just a
• 29:24
  headline it's more
• 29:25
  like there's more of a signaling effect now more than ever and
• 29:28
  it signals change
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: behavior um
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And the rules of the game have changed, but perhaps only temporarily.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the flip side is that,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: sorry,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: if Singapore becomes only an exit factory and not a scale-up hub,
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: you hold out long-term value creation and too many fast exits.
• 29:54
  I think it's definitely an interesting avenue in regards to
• 29:58
  what that means and
• 29:59
  trying to put more into what does this mean for the operations
• 30:02
  of companies.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So in some ways, Singapore is winning.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's no question about it.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also being used because IMDbA wants neutrality.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at the operations of the companies and trying to get a more solid
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: understanding of what can they do.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, those goals don't always align forever.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, they do collide.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: The thought process that...
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: If Manus can do it,
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: then using that as motivation and saying,
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be able to do something similar with my company,
• 30:39
  I think it needs to be used as a motivational factor that
• 30:46
  inevitably will hopefully
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: be able to drive more attention.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: companies forward and become more ambitious.
• 30:54
  Southeast Asia needs to be put on the map and we need to be
• 30:57
  able to drive more
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: opportunities and seeing more of these access is just a first of many,
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: hopefully.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: With that, I think that wraps up our session for today.
• 31:11
  I'm sure it's been a fast-moving news cycle at the beginning of
• 31:15
  this year so far,
• 31:16
  and I'm sure we have lots of material to be covering over the
• 31:20
  course of the next
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: weeks.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 31:25
  Give us a like,
• 31:26
  give us a follow,
• 31:27
  subscribe to the newsletter,
• 31:29
  share it with a friend.
• 31:30
  All of this helps continue to allow us to bring you more
• 31:33
  content,
• 31:35
  and it certainly means a lot.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Until next time, bye-bye.