Latest / Teachers Talk Radio / Beyond the Classroom - How Outdoor Learning Builds Character and Wellbeing: TTR Special

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Beyond the Classroom - How Outdoor Learning Builds Character and Wellbeing: TTR Special · Teachers Talk Radio

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Outstanding and world-class vision and world-class vision.
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If you could move away from a model where teachers are so intensely focused.
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Good evening, everyone. Welcome back to Teachers Talk Radio this evening.
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We're delighted to have you with us.
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If you're joining us live anywhere, do say hi in the comments.
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Tell us where you're zooming in from, where you are in the world and what you're doing here.
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I've got a really exciting one for you this evening, looking at growing character
2:43
and wellbeing through outdoor education and outdoor learning.
2:47
I'm going to be exploring how outdoor education can play a transformative role
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in students' personal development and wellbeing.
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So I'm really, really interested to hear more about this. And I've got Nigel
3:01
Miller here with me. Nigel, good evening. How are you today?
3:03
Good evening, Tom. How are you? Not too bad at all.
3:06
Tell us a little bit about you first, because this show is built around outdoor
3:12
education, outdoor learning.
3:14
Should I tell you my story first from me at primary school? Go for it.
3:18
So I didn't like anything that was scary.
3:25
So unfortunately, I got chicken pox just before we did our year six away week
3:35
to some activity center.
3:39
I ended up going and it was amazing. but I always used to dread things that
3:45
involved anything where I was like outside my comfort zone,
3:49
in primary school I got better as it went on but definitely
3:53
in primary school I mean I still got a hint of that today actually a little
3:55
bit and that was one of the things that
3:58
I I mean there's certain things I don't feel are out of my comfort zone but
4:01
that was one of the things that was my comfort zone but I got loads out of it's
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probably one of the the few things from primary school I actually
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remember was that trip I don't know whether it's because I
4:09
had chicken pox the week before and I still managed to go on it but it
4:12
was actually the trip itself and I know that in the school I went to
4:15
that was like the trip that everybody in
4:18
that school remembers like do you remember what did you do on that trip you
4:23
know because we did all the usual things of orienteering kayaking all the different
4:27
things so I'm really intrigued by this conversation I know how transformative
4:32
this stuff can be so tell us a little bit about you and what brings us to this point.
4:38
I'd actually like to start by just picking up what you just said,
4:41
because I think, honestly, how you started this just captures everything that
4:47
outdoor learning offers to young people.
4:50
Your story is very common, where there's kids who are dreading going on these
4:56
sort of trips and go away.
4:57
It's a kind of the sort of first separation from mom and the family or mom and
5:03
dad and building up that kind of anxiety.
5:06
And i've got millions of
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stories like that in terms of kids who've gone on and
5:12
and had a similar experience to yourself on on that but it's
5:14
the fact of actually doing something beyond that
5:18
that level of comfort that you know going beyond and believing you can do something
5:22
and actually achieving it so it is so powerful and the essence of what you experienced
5:27
is the essence of why outdoor education is so special for young people so yeah
5:32
i've been doing this for 25 years now and we were talking just before we came on air,
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I kind of started off at the more extreme end of the sector.
5:42
I came into this from a career perspective.
5:45
I'm an accountant on that. And I joined it from a business perspective and I
5:50
joined an international expedition business, which delivered amazing life-changing
5:54
experiences for young people.
5:56
But it was the high-end extreme. It was going off to Africa and called up mountains
6:01
and going through jungles and doing projects. Yeah.
6:04
And over the last 20, 25 years, I've kind of broadened out across the whole sector.
6:10
And to where we are now with I'm CEO of Active Learning Group,
6:14
which is a collection of experiences for schools and young people,
6:20
which is beyond the traditional classroom.
6:23
So we stretch now from.
6:26
Single day camps for like five to ten year
6:29
olds forest schools bushcraft camps
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the active learning centers which are three very
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distinct centers one in the woods one on
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the coast one up in the mountains of snowdonia and i
6:41
still also have an expedition business as well
6:45
alongside active learning group which is doing the same things as i was doing
6:49
25 years ago so yeah it's been a kind of a strange entrance into the sector
6:54
but something that once you're in you find the sector wraps around you as as
6:59
an individual yourself because of what it gives to the kids but also it's just.
7:04
Such a creative space it's such a challenging space
7:07
to actually to work in as well because we seem
7:10
to get from everything from bottom mouth to cold red to increasing
7:13
fuel prices to like you know conflicts in the
7:16
middle east and flight prices everything hits you every single
7:19
thing you can think hits you but you keep
7:22
going you're teaching the kids resilience and if you
7:25
weren't resilient yourself well you've got to model it if
7:28
you can't stand there if you got to do it yourself how can you stand there and sell
7:31
them what they i must admit like that it
7:34
must be stressful from that perspective and imagine with
7:37
all the different things that you think could happen i know
7:40
you probably have but yeah stop reading the news
7:42
yeah yeah sure
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i mean i was going to ask you about the challenges now you
7:48
know you mentioned a few of them but when it comes to
7:51
when it comes to schools though specifically you know
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we've had covid we've got
7:57
lots of debate at the moment about rising screen time haven't we that you'll
8:01
have seen and debates about banning social media and so on we've got huge increases
8:06
in mental health needs and and and sort of conversations with young people so
8:12
why do you think that something like what you're describing of outdoor education.
8:17
I mean, because we'll come on to this later as well in terms of not just,
8:21
we're talking about this just for the classroom teacher who doesn't have an
8:25
outdoor learning space or opportunity.
8:27
We'll talk about that later as well. But do you think that there needs to be
8:31
more emphasis on it, nature, outdoor
8:34
education? Do you think that's the antidote to a lot of these things?
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I think environments, change environments that you put young people into can
8:44
only help develop and stretch.
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I think certain environments are extremely sympathetic to things that kids feel,
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you know, anxiety, just that general inability to deal with like noisy situations
9:00
and chaotic situations.
9:02
A chaotic situation in the classroom is very different than a chaotic situation
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in the middle of like 300 acres of ancient woodland, for instance, on that.
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And I see schools, when I walk around our woods, there'll be kids with,
9:16
like, headsets on. And I'll say to the teacher, what's going on here?
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And this, you know, kid obviously struggles with, like, noisy situations and
9:25
wouldn't normally take part in this.
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But it's inclusive when we come out to your bushcraft camps,
9:31
Nigel, and they thrive on that.
9:33
So I think it's not a luxury.
9:36
I genuinely say it isn't a luxury. but it's
9:40
in the environment we're in at the minute with costs increasing
9:43
time pressures you know grade pressure
9:47
all the the different challenges which are on the
9:50
kids but also the teachers delivering it it's very easy to say no to something
9:54
which is seen as extracurricular and i see this is like firmly part of the curriculum
10:00
and what we should be doing and there's lots of ways we can do this it doesn't
10:03
have to be extreme expeditions or or you know organized trips.
10:08
There's lots that we can go on to talk about with the teachers,
10:10
but this is core, this is important and this is something that actually.
10:16
Can really help when the kid goes back into the classroom, both in terms of
10:20
them as an individual, the cohort, the class.
10:23
The connectivity between the teachers and the kids is massive.
10:26
We do a lot of trips that go out early in September.
10:30
Yeah. That's a real challenge because some of the kids go on these trips haven't
10:33
actually joined the school. So doing all the admin and collecting money off people.
10:37
It's easy to say, no, no, it's too hard. No, it's too hard.
10:39
But actually, it's the greatest start to like secondary school.
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You can have immediately in a different environment, getting to know the kids,
10:47
kids getting to know the teachers, the increasing confidence and connectivity on day one is massive.
10:55
And I think that comes out of the environment you're in and some of the practices
10:58
that we're doing when we get them into those environments. So very important.
11:02
That makes sense. And also, you know, we know that, you know,
11:06
nature can help reduce stress, being outdoors can help reduce stress.
11:10
And I wanted to touch before we get
11:13
into it a little bit more on this idea of resilience
11:16
because we've mentioned it a couple of times and you
11:20
know there'll be there's many people including we had we had teachers talk connect
11:24
on on saturday and you were there nigel at the event and we had a few people
11:28
actually in various talks talking about this idea of over protecting kids over
11:33
protecting children so everything you've just described there.
11:39
Is outdoor education one of the answers to that?
11:44
I think it is because the world is seen as a riskier place.
11:51
And you could argue, is it?
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When I was growing up a long time ago, on there than it is today.
12:00
But I think to shield young people from risk and to sanitize the environments
12:06
they live in, I don't think he's the answer on that.
12:09
I think when introducing young people to risk and helping them to nurture the
12:15
ability to make good decisions on that is a better skill set than banning.
12:21
I wrote a piece on LinkedIn about mobile phones a few weeks ago and he got a
12:25
lot of diverse traction on that.
12:29
I just think banning is an extreme way of dealing with something.
12:35
And I think trying to sort of educate and there's a use for mobile phones,
12:40
there's a use for technology, there's a use for the outdoors as well.
12:43
And it's about the whole child and, you know, a balanced environment.
12:48
So, yeah, I think it's a great tool and a great way of reducing stress,
12:54
you know, aiding well-being.
12:55
But also from a resilience point of view, there is kind of, there is no adventure.
13:00
There's no growth without risk. you have to stretch beyond
13:04
like the comfort zone you have to be
13:07
able to fail you have to be able to understand what you
13:09
could have done better but in a safe environment and
13:12
better to do that with like professionals around
13:15
you and teachers who can help you on that journey do you think that more children
13:21
are opting out either either pre the educational visit or even during it or
13:28
or or not based on everything we've just described all the different changes
13:33
in the way things are going.
13:35
I think less young people believe that they can achieve and do.
13:40
I think that they probably think within themselves.
13:42
And it's okay to stand there and talk to them about what you can achieve,
13:47
but taking them on a journey and showing them what they can achieve by letting
13:53
them achieve, letting them fail.
13:55
One part when we do expeditions overseas, I mean, the ideal expedition,
13:59
obviously in the past was a leader leading from behind to make sure nothing, you know.
14:07
Really bad happened yeah but actually at the front was the
14:10
kids with a packet of cash and a map and off they
14:13
went so they could manage themselves to buy their own stuff make their own decisions
14:16
fail the amount of expeditions where people have missed the bus and they go
14:20
when's the next boss and they went two days time so they then got to work out
14:24
what they're doing because they didn't get to the bus stop on time so that's
14:27
an extreme case but further down it's trying to introduce,
14:32
young people to decision making getting things wrong
14:35
getting things right as well and celebrating that and
14:38
and feeling and seeing that growth seeing other
14:41
people achieve and understanding hold on
14:44
they've just done that they've achieved and celebrating together
14:47
i think it's that whole dynamic of not being the individual
14:50
but actually learning from the collective as
14:54
well so i think we're just going to stretch young people because i think they're
14:57
amazing and i think they can do so much more than they than they do and they
15:01
do a lot they do a lot the demands on these people you know the young guys and
15:05
girls is big on that so but I think you can get so much more by by pushing them.
15:13
Kay's made a comment so great to hear outdoor learning is core for this school,
15:17
it's just a general discussion and to hear the massive health benefits
15:20
mentally and physically yeah I wanted to
15:23
ask you actually about this that you know any sort of evidence
15:26
or statistics or anything you can tell us in terms of
15:29
you know what the actual benefits are or the impact is
15:32
of nature-based learning well i
15:34
think there's there's lots of research out there i
15:37
mean practically what what what i see you
15:41
mentioned before about going out on your school trip and some of the trips that
15:45
kadean it was called nigel kadean kadean kadean i don't know where it is but
15:52
it was it was kadean 95 was mine but they did they might still do it i'm not
15:56
gonna look it up after this anyway.
15:59
I don't know how you spell it, maybe it was in Wales somewhere,
16:00
I don't know. But it sounds like, but I think,
16:04
It doesn't matter whether you're going into a rural environment or if it's in
16:09
a more kind of urban environment.
16:11
It's taking them away from their normal environment.
16:15
So that's the first thing. It doesn't all have to be this about mountains and forest.
16:20
There's certain benefits. There's lots of benefits you see around being in woodland
16:24
environment, around nature, forest bathing, different lights, all this.
16:29
There's lots of things that, you know, it's very soothing on the kids.
16:32
This is why I'm saying kids who are struggling in a more traditional classroom
16:36
environment do tend to thrive in those environments.
16:40
There are certain things that you can only do in those environments.
16:44
You go off into Wales, you encounter the mountains, cold conditions, wet conditions.
16:50
You might go down a slate mine or into a river.
16:54
So I think in terms of the overall benefit,
16:58
everybody can understand this, that if they've been sat in their office all
17:02
day and the fact of going out and going on a walk or going on a run or doing
17:07
some sort of physical activity,
17:09
I mean, a lot of our kids are statistically less physically active now than
17:16
we were 10 years ago, 20 years ago. It's just a fact on that.
17:20
So everything, we tend to be young people go to activities.
17:25
There's a lot more like clubs and activities to go to to do this.
17:29
Whereas 10, 20 years ago, you would do it on the street or with your mates in your local area.
17:36
So things are changing. Things are more structured. And because of that, all these things.
17:41
Different organizers have got risk assessments and all the controls set up to
17:47
control the environment, which is right. But I think we're getting less exposure
17:51
for young people to everyday risks that they'd have to manage themselves.
17:56
So I think environment is a key area of this.
18:00
Taking young people out of their day-to-day environment into a different environment stretches them.
18:07
They encounter new experiences. They feel discomfort.
18:11
It's good to feel uncomfortable okay there's
18:15
a certain level and and we can we can manage this but it's
18:18
a good thing and a lot of young people struggle feeling uncomfortable
18:22
it's like a it's a worrying factor so trying
18:25
to help them and take them through that is is
18:28
a key part of education how do how
18:31
do you take them through that because i mentioned
18:34
five minutes ago about this idea of opting out so you
18:39
know how do you take them through that i know i know
18:42
for for me with the example i gave you at the
18:44
beginning it was quite often from my
18:47
parents or or teachers or whoever you're going
18:50
that's it it wasn't like it's just like no you're
18:53
going that that's end of the matter sort of
18:56
thing but you know that might work
18:59
with some children it might not work with others so what what's you know what
19:04
what are your sort of strategies and tactics and things and this might actually
19:07
apply for anything to be fair for teachers but particularly for them when it
19:12
comes to outdoor education hey this is fantastic it's going to be brilliant
19:14
here's all the benefits so yeah.
19:18
Well, I think with your experience on that, say I'm a little bit older than
19:23
you, so perhaps my generation, it was kind of, you just get on with it and you
19:27
push. Yours is a similar one.
19:29
Now we've got to sort of nurture and encourage and take them on that journey.
19:34
The big thing is around facilitation and actually making sure the beauty of
19:38
the outdoors and the activities and things we do are within the group.
19:44
It's it's not often about the individual
19:48
activity that that one child's doing you're doing
19:51
it as a as a group one of
19:53
the things that we when we set the bushcraft company
19:56
up the whole aim on there was it's
19:59
a very simple product what you're doing is very strict back there's not
20:02
you know under climbing walls and zip wires
20:05
and things it's a natural environment but there's
20:08
no queuing so if you're a climbing wall
20:12
or you just there's one kid going up and you're
20:14
sending kids and then coming down with with bushcraft it
20:17
was kind of everybody taking part at
20:20
the same time and so the key part on
20:23
this is the facilitation and a lot of my staff i mentioned this
20:26
on saturday in the talk a lot of my staff and not academically
20:29
brilliant people they're absolutely superb
20:33
people in terms of their ability to communicate
20:36
and their practical nature they can show
20:39
you and develop things with their hands and they can explain it but they're
20:43
not brilliant at writing it down and doing that so academically they've you
20:48
know not achieved the highest levels they do now in this environment so some
20:52
of that is about the environment some of that is about the activity we're doing some of that is the.
20:58
That you know what they're doing the teaching if
21:01
you like the facilitation they're a natural teacher they're a
21:04
real natural teacher these are young guys and girls as well but that's but that's
21:07
interesting nigel you say that is and this
21:09
is more a wider point within teaching is what's annoyed
21:14
me over the years is and i know this was i'm not
21:17
sure it's as strict as this on teach first now but it
21:20
used to be very much if you haven't been to
21:23
a red brick university and got a first
21:26
or a two one you can't get into on to
21:29
teach first and the number
21:33
of because i've been involved i've nearly up
21:35
to my 20th year now of teaching and over that time i've been involved in for
21:41
example interview processes i've been i've seen teachers come through doors
21:44
and so on i've seen really really good teachers i've seen a really good teacher
21:49
who you know after a while working with them said, I got a third class degree.
21:55
Now, some people would immediately react to that and say, that person shouldn't be teaching.
22:00
But they were really good, really good.
22:04
And sometimes, I think sometimes in that regard, it takes that to understand
22:10
the young people you've got in front of you.
22:12
You understand maybe a little bit more, maybe the struggle, the feelings,
22:18
maybe some of the negativity they have towards traditional learning.
22:22
In the same token, who you're describing might have more of an affinity towards
22:27
the type of learning you're talking about.
22:29
So then they can inspire with passion and they can try
22:33
and bring them along on that journey as well so i mean it's just
22:35
interesting what you said because i think there's wider points there about
22:38
you know good teachers being sort
22:43
of you know academics that don't
22:46
necessarily don't necessarily i'm not saying they don't because you can
22:49
have an academic who's also an amazing incredible teacher
22:52
i think of university professors who would fit that bill but
22:56
you can also discount people because they don't
22:59
maybe have that more academic background or
23:02
qualification or whatever before they've even
23:04
got started anyway there's a little it's all
23:07
about balance and all about breadth so it's
23:10
we need the brilliant academics on there but we need the
23:14
guys and girls who can can resonate connect
23:17
and inspire can take
23:20
these young people on on a journey and and i'm very
23:24
fortunate on that i think it's the one thing that sort of inspires me and keeps
23:27
me keeps me going on a day-to-day basis on this is you're surrounded by like
23:31
young people and you're seeing them there on the journeys as well but a lot
23:34
of them are coming in while they're at university and and mirroring their university journey and.
23:42
Some of them will start off doing like the basic camp and then they'll move
23:44
on to being like a leader on there.
23:46
Then they may run one of the sites for us. So it's like kind of the best mini
23:49
business school for them over, over, over three years.
23:52
So I think just the other thing, just to go back a little story about my, um,
23:56
I've got two girls and they've both been through with our school,
24:00
but through our, our courses and the one thing they'll say, the one thing they
24:04
always remember about the courses they went on with the instructors.
24:09
They're the ones they mentioned, but you know, by men, on
24:13
there and some of these guys are not working with us now this
24:16
is like going back over 15 years ago but it's
24:18
the people and it's the way that you know my my guys
24:21
will meet them off the coach and connect with them they actually go on
24:24
to the coach and start talking to the kids and bring them
24:27
off so you said there will be an anxious child on that who's
24:30
thinking i don't want to go my youngest tells
24:33
me the story that she actually cried at
24:36
night on the first one this is my own daughter on one of her camps
24:39
as you're saying because they're in this tent and one of the girls was
24:43
actually snoring in her ear and she couldn't actually sleep and
24:46
so she was saying oh she was so stressed on that was she going to be
24:49
able to sort of manage the day after she did and she's fine
24:52
she came through it and she's you know built some
24:55
resilience on that but it's those little stories and those little
24:57
experiences that you know
25:00
you can't write down in a book on that it's just that
25:03
they've experienced it and then just just dealt with
25:06
that one of my uh one of my friends daughter sorry
25:09
another little story on this one of my one of my friends said good luck on getting
25:14
my daughter to sleep when she comes out on the course i said why she's oh she
25:19
she won't go to sleep without her ipad her ipad at night i said oh okay fine
25:24
well that'll be interesting because we don't do ipads on there in the middle of the woods yeah.
25:29
And she was so anxious, actually. This is a three-day residence.
25:34
The first day, she didn't stay all at night. They came and collected her. She went home.
25:38
Second night on there, she was like, okay.
25:41
And the third day, she stayed and absolutely loved it.
25:44
And when he saw me a few weeks later and he said, like, she doesn't have her
25:48
iPad anymore on there. She just goes to sleep at night.
25:51
She's changed, you know, coming off this because she's seen the other kids around
25:54
and go, well, I've always had my iPad at night getting to sleep.
25:57
And I just found, you know, talking to my friends and seeing that,
26:01
it's just broken that, that, that sort of, I don't know, neurological pathway
26:06
that she needs her iPad to go to sleep at night.
26:08
So yeah, lots of, um, lots of good little stories like that.
26:13
Talk us through, because obviously you've mentioned Bushcraft Company and the
26:18
different things that Active Learning Group offers.
26:20
And just in case anyone's tuning in live, we've had 70 people so far tuning
26:25
in live. So thanks very much if you are watching this right now.
26:28
Please leave us a comment, give us a like, share it if you're enjoying it, say hello.
26:34
But besides the point, we're talking about Active Learning Group,
26:37
we're talking about outdoor education.
26:39
Just in case anybody doesn't know, Active Learning Group is a business that
26:42
offers education experiences beyond the classroom for children five years old and upwards.
26:47
So Nigel, what I wanted to ask you is just give us a bit of a taste of if I'm,
26:53
let's imagine I'm a secondary age student and I'm in year nine.
26:59
So let's say I'm 13 or 14 years old and my teacher says,
27:04
we're doing an outdoor education trip with
27:07
Active learning group and i want you
27:10
to pick maybe two experiences that
27:14
are maybe maybe popular ones they could be niche i don't
27:17
mind but two experiences preferably at
27:21
least one out of the two should be an overnight one and
27:24
more than a day but you know give us a bit of a
27:26
walkthrough as in like the schedule and
27:30
the different activities and the different things let's call
27:33
them child a a different experience schedule that
27:37
child a might have with active learning group and also tell us like what would
27:42
make that experience i'm not going to use the word unique because you know there'll
27:46
be a lot of different things happening in this space of outdoor education but
27:50
something that you know where you think yeah this is why we're successful yeah well i mean,
27:57
let's start off with a bushcraft course and we'll build up to active learning centers so you.
28:03
So actually, let's do the whole active learning centre.
28:06
So we've got three experiences all around the environment that you'll experience.
28:12
So the first one is in Hertfordshire.
28:14
And these are a collection of centres that...
28:17
Have basically been neglected by their previous users.
28:23
And generally, they've come out of local authority ownership where their budgets
28:28
have been cut over years, top slicing and stocks as a concept on that.
28:33
None of these tens have got sales and marketing capability in teams,
28:36
so as soon as a top slice comes in, they wither.
28:40
So we picked up three of those, Hertfordshire, North Wales, which was Wolverhampton
28:45
Council, and Seelium, which was a private-owned business.
28:49
But it basically follows the woods in Hertfordshire.
28:52
So we're like 10, 15 minutes off the N25 in the middle of 110 acres of ancient woodland.
28:59
You've then got Pembrokeshire, which is coastal.
29:03
So co-steering, surfing, beachcombing, and lots of activities around there.
29:10
We've got our traditional ropes activities as well. and
29:13
then you go to north wales which i would
29:17
nearly say is my favorite then but that'll offend the other people through the
29:20
center so i won't say that but i do specifically like
29:23
that one because i'm proud of the center that we've developed because it's
29:26
actually a it's quite a small center about 90
29:29
beds which is small for our our industry yeah
29:33
north wales got steeped in in history of
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like schools going out there but friends who live in more
29:39
than we went there as kids and were telling me
29:41
about this center totally derelict and we brought it
29:44
back to life kept it in education which is the
29:47
bit i am i am proud about could have easily been a hotel or
29:50
something else on there but you go to the woodland
29:53
environment and on there you're doing my big
29:57
driver is is no queuing i try to reduce queuing because i want the kids to be
30:01
active all the time i want them to be involved yeah it's not a case of like
30:05
two of you got the climb all to come down to you're trying to work together
30:09
the activities are built around challenge and stretch so a good facilitation community group's.
30:16
Very adventurous we can stretch them further on there
30:18
we can go quicker we can go faster we can go further if they're
30:22
not we can nurture them at a slower pace through
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the activity so they're getting growth they're getting
30:28
stretched they're getting achievement as they go the other
30:31
thing that we really focus on is we don't hand
30:34
the kids back at night so it's not a case like
30:37
they're nine to five when we hand the kids back my staff on
30:41
road took us along they do need to sleep as well is stay
30:44
with the group so if you're in the woods they camp out with the group
30:47
so the kids wake up and they're not happy in the evening my
30:50
staff are there supporting the teachers so we're
30:52
not handing back to teachers so it's kind of i call it
30:55
like teacher light so teachers can
30:58
come and actually enjoy being part of it really get
31:01
stuck in or they don't have to be because there's there's
31:05
a whole range of appetites for this from the teaching
31:08
side but because we don't depend on the teachers stepping into the activity
31:14
it means this can happen it means that you can facilitate so you got a teacher
31:18
who's very confident and adapting the outdoors might want to be that if you
31:22
got somebody who isn't this is what makes it accessible so making it accessible and easy for teachers.
31:27
Not handing the kids back it builds that rapport at
31:30
night so you do the activities but you might be sat around a campfire talking
31:34
telling stories singing songs being collective
31:38
that's not common these days
31:41
you know people sitting around the dinner table eating together so
31:44
if you're on one of the the camping trip
31:47
the kids will wash up yeah that's quite a
31:50
novel factor for someone where's the dishwasher uh it's
31:53
the bowl over in the corner over there and off you go so it's kind of taking
31:57
the responsibility you come to the towers on there you take it in turns over
32:03
the different nights to serve your peers you go and pick the food off of a cook
32:08
and we come and like you know, lay the tables out.
32:12
So it's very much more, you know, collective, taking responsibility for the
32:15
environment that you're in,
32:18
good manners, good communication with people.
32:21
So it's the whole experience on that. So it's not just about activities.
32:26
And this is the big thing to get around people.
32:29
Your experience of outdoor learning may be huge climbing walls and zip wires.
32:33
They're great. A lot of fun. It's a lot of fun.
32:36
But for me, at the heart of this, it's about challenge. It's about stretch.
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It's about taking people beyond where they think they can go safely.
32:48
On there and understanding you know
32:51
where that where that cutoff is and and people getting
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to the end of the trip and and feeling you know
32:56
there's a big uh a big achievement so that's
33:00
the three the three areas really with a ofc around the the woods the coast and
33:04
the mountains yeah so taking like north the north wales one as an example then
33:08
so in a in a given day like from like give us an example of wake up time you
33:14
know activity one you know go into like the granular detail end of the day.
33:19
So generally, if they're going to Wales, they're going for five days on there.
33:24
If they're going from slightly further afield, if it's kind of North Wales schools,
33:29
Merseyside, they might come for like three days on there because you've got
33:31
to get out into the mountains.
33:34
Up at seven, breakfast, briefing. Here's the first thing, the weather changes
33:40
a lot in North Wales. Yeah.
33:42
Might say we've got like a carousel of
33:45
activities and sites we can go to that
33:48
with the weather the changes we can adapt so the staff in north wales are highly
33:53
experienced they've been doing this for a long time it's a more extreme environment
33:56
so the level of expertise that you need is higher so if you're in north wales
34:01
you may be kayaking in a lake you may be gorge walking,
34:06
you go in the slate mine which is probably my favorite so
34:09
you go into one of the old slate mines and walk
34:12
through then you fear ferrata on on your
34:15
way out it's pretty unique it's a pretty amazing
34:19
a lot of kids have not done that sort of thing yeah it
34:22
is an amazing thing quite honestly you wake
34:25
up in north wales you walk outside the view is
34:28
stunning it is an unbelievable part
34:32
of part of world it's somewhere i've been for quite a
34:34
long my career i actually went to university in north wales and i keep so did
34:37
i through business where did you go university where did i did you oh there
34:42
you go so you know the special place that that is yeah so yeah you become slightly
34:47
blase because you open your bedroom curtains and snow in front of you and you see that.
34:52
But it's a pretty unique, special, special place. So...
34:57
It's about the environment. It's about seeing that it is a very,
35:00
very, you know, different and beautiful place.
35:01
But it is about, let's say, that facilitation through those amazing natural activities.
35:07
In Wales, it's entirely natural. There's no man-made, like, walls or activities.
35:12
We are using the environment to, you know, create the challenge and create the adventure.
35:18
If you went to South Wales to Cilium, on there you go co-steering.
35:23
Have you done co-steering?
35:25
I've not really. I mean, again, I did my teacher practice in Pembrokeshire.
35:30
So I know that area and we used to holiday there. I mean, the reason I picked
35:33
that as my teacher practice is because as a kid, that was our sort of holiday
35:37
destination where we used to go to Havreford West.
35:41
And I was in Pembroke High School, which was a pretty tough school, actually.
35:48
It was a good little baptism of fire for me, that one. It was my second placement, actually.
35:53
So I picked like the two, I think I had like the two, and this is no disrespect,
35:58
it was a lovely school, great staff, but I think I picked like the two toughest,
36:02
toughest schools for my teacher practice and with those two. But yeah, but St.
36:06
David's, I have the West. New Gale Beach is one of my favorite beaches down
36:12
there. Yes, we use New Gale.
36:14
Do you use that? Yeah, New Gale, White Sands. I mean, it's just, it's a stunning place.
36:19
I tip my family that every year we always have a little trip down there. It's just.
36:23
I liken it. It's like Cornwall where the traffic in terms of the beaches.
36:28
Sure. And the roads are getting better. It's quite a distance.
36:32
It's quite a distance, which is, yeah, it's quite a distance.
36:36
But the coasteering there, it's, you know, unless you stood on one of the ledges
36:40
and then looked down and thought, I've done this, you know, with the team.
36:46
And you look down and go, I can't do this. I don't want to, you know, and then you do it.
36:50
And honestly the adrenaline and the
36:53
rush from achieving that and doing it you're
36:56
up again wanting to go again it's not a kind of one-off you
36:59
know activity so yeah the other big thing
37:02
for us food we take you know we like to
37:05
serve like you know good food we like to serve
37:07
food that's naturally sourced locally and great
37:11
environments in terms of south wales and north wales we've
37:14
got cooks on site which are just superb
37:17
and very caring we never ever don't take
37:21
kids because of like dietary and med and all this and trust
37:24
me the kids are allergic to things these days you
37:27
would not even think you could be even allergic to and we generally get delivered
37:31
the information on the friday night before the monday so we're geared up to
37:35
all that it's part of what we do we get so fast curveballed and deal with it
37:41
but it's a big part of what you know it's a big part of the the ability to do what we do.
37:47
I was going to sort of ask you you talk there a little bit about adaptations
37:51
but how do the centres adapt activities then to make sure every child's sort
37:56
of included they can take part particularly send students as well if they have
38:00
particular needs or adaptation requirements?
38:03
A lot of it comes out of the pre-trip information briefing.
38:09
If there's nothing challenging on there for us to deal with,
38:13
then it goes through the standard system.
38:16
But if there is, then there's lots of dialogue back and forth for the school.
38:20
Really understanding, briefing, because all we want to make sure is when the
38:24
coach turns off, they hit the ground, they're off, the instructors are with them and they're away.
38:29
So we don't want to be spending time when the kids have been on the coach for
38:33
quite a long time sorting this out.
38:36
So it's detailed um detailed operation planning
38:39
on on that and a lot of their businesses the season
38:42
we're not working for the majority of
38:45
the year not working not operating we're off
38:48
doing all the pre-trip yeah so it's
38:51
a very very intense period between kind of
38:54
april the end of october yeah on
38:58
that so it's obviously the machine is a pretty
39:02
well-oiled machine but it's about dialogue and it's about communication with
39:05
the teachers and another it talks about anxiety within
39:07
the kids quite a lot of it i'm seeing more and
39:10
more is anxiety with the teachers not believing that they can do it
39:13
it's very easy to say no to what we're doing because
39:16
costs are going up transport costs are going
39:19
through the roof they're going to go even more narrow what's happening at
39:22
the minute or on there so there's lots
39:25
and lots of reasons to just go it's too hard
39:28
i'm not doing it and what our aim is every single
39:31
thing that we're doing is trying to go no we've got to keep doing this so in
39:35
terms of deals we do with coach companies free places for kids or for teachers
39:41
to facilitate kids who may not be able to come if we don't do that just doing
39:45
everything to make sure we keep going and this you know just keep moving forward yeah.
39:52
Yeah, I mentioned that. It's interesting you say that about the teachers and
39:56
stuff and them being anxious about what they think the students can do.
40:01
It's an interesting point, that. I mean, why do you think that is?
40:06
Some of it's generational. Well, now we're going through some of it.
40:09
It's, you know, different generations of, we went back before and you said that,
40:15
in my generation, you get on
40:17
with it and you're pushed into it and you get things right and you fail.
40:21
And I'm not saying it was perfect by any means on there, but it was just the
40:25
environment that we lived in. I think now there's a lot more.
40:29
Analysis and like we're saying risk assessment we
40:32
we do risk assess risk assessments or yeah
40:36
and you know being said is the heart all we
40:39
do is like i'm the director of five
40:42
outdoor education companies people say do you
40:45
sleep at night they're very soundly because of the people and
40:48
the procedures that i've got around me so risk is very important and you've
40:53
got to analyze it it's not a blocker to me you find a way of doing it and make
40:58
it make it safe so i think on there it's just generational where people we've
41:03
been through a lot haven't we you know six years you know covid.
41:07
And and cost of living crises and we've had
41:10
times where you couldn't get there's just lots and lots of reasons to go
41:13
we can't do that anymore and a lot of stock
41:15
there's a lot of outdoor centers that have fallen by the wayside that
41:19
i was offered one this afternoon up in north wales
41:22
which i would absolutely love to pick up but it's just
41:25
been neglected too too far so it's too it's
41:28
too much money to bring it back into into operation so
41:32
yeah it's yeah and if
41:35
i think if you're not on top of your game in
41:38
this sector at the minute it's very hard to survive on
41:41
there because there's a lot of reasons to to say no yeah i mean i wanted to
41:46
ask you like sort of anything because we've talked about this idea of the uniqueness
41:53
of outdoor learning opportunities and how unique they can be and how different they can be.
41:59
Tell us an experience or something you've seen of where like a child,
42:04
something you might see in this, in this, you know, sort of environment that
42:09
you wouldn't see in a classroom.
42:10
So, you know, something that you'd see happen that you wouldn't see happen in class.
42:17
So let's just go, let's go to the extreme end with the expeditions. Two things.
42:22
My favorite part of the year used to be standing at Heathrow with the parents,
42:29
waiting for the kids to come back.
42:31
And this shows you where things have changed. So we used to,
42:34
all the expeditions were a month.
42:36
You went away for a month on that. And actually it was the fact that it was
42:40
a month, that takes you through a different cycle, doesn't it?
42:43
You know, a week, two weeks. Well, if you're on two weeks, the end of your first
42:47
week, the end of your first week, and it's the start of your last week.
42:51
But four weeks, it's like you're going a bit, you know, it's a longer period of time.
42:56
And I'd stand with the parents and these were just, these are like normal,
43:00
you know, ladies and gentlemen who were like, if it was at Manchester, it was at Heathrow.
43:06
And these are not cheap trips either. And they put a lot into it.
43:12
And they said the kid coming back in, they said the growth, the parents are in tears.
43:18
I can't believe how much they've grown. And we go and see them in school.
43:21
I don't know if you've physically gone. I mean, they've gone away as kids and
43:24
come back as young adults.
43:27
And the stories they've got to tell are mainly things that went wrong.
43:32
It's absolutely immense. but on the expeditions if
43:35
you ask any of the leaders who take them away and and
43:39
the concept on lead on these is leading from behind as
43:43
well not leading from the front so it's standing behind
43:46
letting the kids self-lead and just making sure
43:49
that the environment we don't go too far on
43:52
that but it's when you're doing many gonna
43:55
say altitude okay and an altitude
43:58
is is a real level real leveler and you'll
44:02
get the big strong athletic kid who's normally
44:05
the one who's you know really old and really you know gregarious and then the
44:09
the little kid who maybe is quiet and who actually the big kid struggles at
44:17
the environment and the little kid doesn't and it's the little kid helping the
44:20
bigger kid to get to the top of that mountain which is a well-trodden,
44:25
a path and a story on there.
44:27
So altitude is certainly a big leveller. And that's one extreme.
44:31
I mentioned before about the kids we see who come out.
44:34
Into the environments with you know a lot
44:37
of scnd requirements on that
44:40
just find the environment we work in like you know
44:43
absolutely amazing lots of kids who don't say
44:47
don't don't excel academically on that
44:50
are very very at ease with
44:53
the people that that you know we are we are working with on
44:57
on that so it's just like lots of
45:00
stories and it's not the big stories you know those are big the little
45:03
things you hear like the story you know a friend of mine
45:06
it's like my own daughter telling me that story you know years later
45:09
me going as a parent thinking oh my god and
45:13
then going hold on it is the right thing you
45:16
know what she is and what she's doing now so it's it's
45:19
the little stories that and experiences that you see which are the i think the
45:24
greater sort of benefit it's coming out of you know the outdoors sure sometimes
45:31
in schools and we know this now it's always been an issue but you know certainly
45:36
still an issue is like bullying yeah and like you know,
45:40
the higher the social hierarchies in in year groups and in social groups and
45:46
peer groups peer pressure a lot of it coming from obviously social media you
45:51
know a lot of them will be on social media, et cetera.
45:54
Do you think you can genuinely break that down in these experiences?
45:59
Or do you think that, I mean, do you have to look out? I mean,
46:02
how do you deal with the kid there who isn't going to say anything?
46:07
They're never going to come to a facilitator or a course leader.
46:10
They won't even go to their own teacher and say, do you know what?
46:12
I'm feeling like I'm intimidated. But you'll be able to see it because you see it in a classroom.
46:18
Teachers can see that in classrooms where they go, that kid's being left out.
46:22
That kid's worried to stick their head above the parapet.
46:25
That kid's worried about making a joke.
46:28
Those kids are the kids that aren't part of the it crowd.
46:31
So how do you, how do you as a facilitator on this sort of trip where that's
46:35
going to come out potentially even more?
46:37
Because in a classroom environment, it's pretty strictly controlled because
46:40
you've got them wall to wall.
46:41
Yeah, you, you can manipulate, I don't say that in a negative sense as a teacher,
46:46
you can, you can manage that situation to actually boost those kids.
46:52
That's what I try to do as a teacher. I always have through
46:55
my 20 years is I will see the social dynamic and
46:59
I will then manage that in a way where I'm gonna I can't change it because what
47:06
happens outside of that classroom I can't control it but what I can control
47:12
is what happens for that hour inside those four walls.
47:17
That's easier to control so I'm saying like do you
47:20
keep that in mind where as facilitators do
47:23
your facilitators keep those social dynamics in mind and is there anything you
47:27
can do to say okay at the end of this week those kids might feel a bit more
47:33
part of it or they might or like minimum at least they'll have had like an experience
47:38
where they're not going I was
47:39
I was picked on I was bullied I was you know anything happened you know.
47:43
I think there's a few things going on here.
47:46
One, I actually think it's probably easier beyond the classroom.
47:53
I think that the kids eventually, as you go, will naturally relax.
48:00
There's probably less anxiety when you get out into the environments we're working in.
48:05
But I think the sort of bushcraft earlier years part of the outdoor education
48:13
is my instructors are quite young.
48:16
So there's not a huge age gap in, you know, there's probably,
48:21
I don't know, 10 years or something on there between them.
48:25
They're probably 19 and like nine on that.
48:29
So there is that sort there is that dynamic different than
48:32
say like a 55 year old is doing yeah instruction with
48:36
them so there is that kind of infinity there's the
48:39
environment there's the length of time as well because you often when you're
48:42
waking up to when you're going to bed you're together there's a lot more there's
48:46
just a lot more time and and when you have a challenge or a problem one of the
48:50
things you can do to help on that is put time into the situation to give you
48:54
time to converse I think there's a lot of side conversations when you're walking down a track,
48:59
when you're going off and getting out of the water and helping it's like there's a lot of and it's.
49:06
Friend a little bit these there's a lot of banter yeah sort
49:09
of like you know badgering cajol then there's a lot of humor around
49:13
that it's just a great dynamic to create that sort of safe environment the other
49:18
thing as well which is a big part of outdoor and and and facilitation is is
49:24
um active reviewing and actively like reviewing what you've just done how you
49:29
thought before how you feel,
49:31
and really allowing people to take how they felt in terms of they felt anxious
49:38
before they jumped off of the clip and how they feel a great feeling of exhilaration.
49:43
So I think constantly reviewing what they've done, dialogue,
49:47
and in different environments, different times.
49:51
You're in a classroom where you teach at the front or in a round, whereas here it's not.
49:56
It's a more kind of diverse set of environments.
50:01
I mean, I know that sometimes people say, you know, residential trips,
50:06
you know, costs a major barrier.
50:10
So, you know, what cost effective strategies can schools use to make these experiences
50:15
more accessible to more students in general?
50:19
I think, so let's just step back from the residential activity, first of all.
50:25
For me, at the heart of this, outdoor learning doesn't have to be going on four-week
50:32
expeditions or even going on three-night trips.
50:36
It isn't. I know the challenge is, the big challenge is transport costs on that and the general cost.
50:43
General cost so i think doing anything taking
50:46
the kids beyond the classroom spending time
50:50
within within the week on working on
50:53
team building problem solving activities or on that trying to find ways in the
51:00
environment you're in where you can stretch them and can get them working together
51:05
and working differently that's the very basic you can do that extremely extremely cheaply i think,
51:11
activities such as forest school at the early stage is great and that's you know,
51:17
I think with Forest School, have a go, and you can always bring in resource
51:21
that's not that expensive externally to help you. But it's a great starting point.
51:26
We do giant sleepovers with schools as well. One night, the primary schools.
51:30
Yeah, because it's just a kind of, mom's not there, and they're not sleeping.
51:36
It's literally. What does that mean then? What is the giant sleepover?
51:40
What is it? Oh, come in and do some activities in the school hall.
51:43
And literally sleep in the school overnight together, and
51:46
they're doing like a little camp but in the hall so these are young kids
51:49
yeah so i mean that's it's not outdoor education
51:52
no then you'd be on the classroom but they are interacting they
51:56
are they are you know they are learning so i think teachers can do
51:59
and they can do that so there's lots of things you
52:02
can do early stage and for me it's about progression and
52:05
you as like you know professionals observing these
52:08
kids and taking them on a journey and progressively yeah
52:11
getting them to understand they can do a lot more than they
52:15
are doing then you go to the residentials and
52:18
if you can't afford to go for five days go for three days maybe
52:21
can't go for three days do an overnight you've got
52:24
to go the overnight piece is important i think
52:27
to get them away and get them into different environments so
52:30
we'll keep the cost then there'll be lots of centers near you
52:33
locally you know use them some amazing
52:37
people so and then negotiate hard i'm
52:40
i'm telling against myself it now but that's what i would do
52:43
i was on there because i'd sooner people do it rather
52:46
than not do it because of the cost and
52:49
it's so easy to say no but we have to say yes that's
52:53
that makes perfect sense a perfect sense you know
52:58
you've sort of touched on this earlier but what changes do you think a teacher
53:05
might see when they a teacher might see i mean you've mentioned it i sort of.
53:10
A bit from a parent but what changes do you think a teacher might see after this from students.
53:16
I think the relationship back with the with the students themselves is is huge on their.
53:23
Those trust a real trust
53:26
a real kind of affiliation i
53:29
remember just putting aside the outdoors for
53:31
the minute you know at school i was heavily into lots
53:34
of sports and my teachers that i look back with with
53:38
like real fondness are the teachers that i spent time
53:41
with football or rugby or cricket yeah you
53:45
know i i i told the stories where my geography
53:47
teacher bowled at us every lunchtime in the in the playground
53:50
on that i remember him you know i mean because that and i had affinity with
53:54
him because he not only was he a brilliant geography teacher by the way he was
53:58
also he had a pretty good light offspin as well so it was we we built that rapport
54:04
so i think you build a rapport i think you build the trust to see a different
54:07
side of you as well you you know of Mr.
54:09
Or Miss coming into a classroom is different than Mr. or Miss out.
54:14
Maybe struggling to, you know, do some of the activities with them on that,
54:19
or actually being really, really good at them. And the kids going,
54:22
wow, I didn't think you could actually do it.
54:24
And it's that kind of humility and that sort of bonding that you can get and
54:30
you can build over these activities.
54:32
And ultimately, I think kids genuinely really appreciate it when adults,
54:39
support them and do things with them they just see
54:42
it and and might not say it to you i might not show
54:45
it in immediacy but it will come into experiences as
54:49
you go further forward so i just feel you've got you've got that i think there's
54:54
kids that are maybe slightly more introverted but slightly more you know would
55:00
have been sort of the back you will start to see them It's not a light bulb
55:05
and everybody suddenly starts, you know,
55:07
running marathons and sort of being totally gregarious. But actually...
55:12
It's small steps and it is about small steps and about progression.
55:15
So you will see subtle changes in the kids when they come back into the classroom.
55:22
Sure. Just again, if anybody's watching, check it out, activelearninggroup.co.uk.
55:27
Find out more about what we're talking about tonight if you're interested or
55:31
if you're, we'll come back to that at the end.
55:33
But I just thought I'd throw it up now for anyone watching. we're
55:36
going to move on a little bit now to the sort
55:39
of well-being and sort
55:42
of free time side of this so you know
55:46
i'll start with one question if you could ban because you mentioned you wouldn't
55:50
ban mobile phones i would at certain times yeah i i in certain situations but
55:56
what was it social media i don't know what it was that you said on your on your
56:00
linkedin what was it mine was more it's about the phones.
56:04
For instance, when you come in our experience, we say, don't bring phones. Yeah.
56:07
And the battle, some parents are not comfortable with that. So no,
56:11
the child needs the phone.
56:12
And we say, trust, trust us, you don't need the phone on that.
56:17
And so, I think not having that, the phone and those devices sometimes is vital
56:24
because we're all glued to them all.
56:27
Sure. But I was going to ask if you could ban one thing from modern childhood,
56:31
overnight. What would it be?
56:37
In some cases like with them is is
56:39
parents being at all the activities so
56:43
outside of obviously the beauty of
56:46
when you go on the outdoor education is mum and dad aren't there and
56:50
if anybody is listening to this and is running
56:53
sports teams at weekends know most of
56:56
the problems you have around sports teams at weekends don't involve
56:59
the kids it's the parents and quite a
57:02
lot of the behavior around there and then the result and interaction
57:05
between a parent not behaving and
57:08
the kid not behaving or the kid not
57:11
behaving and the parent not doing anything about it so i think for me would
57:14
be having activities where kids were away from from the parents so they can
57:20
be you know themselves and probably open up more and and discuss yeah do you
57:26
think that that so you're saying that happens less maybe now.
57:30
I think so. That the parents are with them more during...
57:34
100 percent i mean i was saying to uh to
57:37
my mom this weekend i was back up in in in obviously
57:40
after saturday i was back in rochdale for for mother's
57:44
day i'm just saying i used to play cricket i used to
57:46
get two buses i was like 15 14 15
57:50
and i'd go off and my dad wasn't there because he
57:52
was away okay so they weren't in and around me
57:55
very very supportive as they were on on with
57:58
me but let me get on with it you know i played in
58:01
bands i played cricket i played football and and you went around so and i think
58:05
that gave a certain level of independence and a certain level of understanding
58:09
feeling uncomfortable feeling a bit nervous at times but i didn't have that
58:14
i wasn't ferried from post to post and to this club to that club to another club there's a lot more.
58:21
Free play i believe a lot in the power of
58:24
play as well kids just being kids and getting out and playing
58:27
we just told before matt that you couldn't wait
58:30
for lunchtime to get out and be playing playing cricket someone
58:33
made a job the other day the young boy who just played for arsenal he's like
58:36
16 the other day i know yeah i wonder what he's like in the playground playing
58:41
football i'm thinking it's a shame for him actually because he doesn't he won't
58:44
be allowed to really because of what he what he is but he's 16 on that he's
58:49
15 whatever he is on that and so just allowing.
58:53
Kids to be kids and playing i think is a a
58:56
a huge huge part if you look at super
58:58
cam super cam is the kids turn up and it's very structured you
59:02
know we're there yeah i mean now is yeah parents
59:05
want to know what are they doing what what have they done today what are they doing
59:08
here and i'm going a lot of the time just let them
59:11
play and interact with other kids and just like make their own games up and
59:16
and play some some of the time but there's people know we want structure we
59:20
want to know what we're doing between nine and ten and ten and eleven so i would
59:24
remove a lot of the structure around some of the things that kids do and just let them play.
59:31
I think a lot of people resonate with that. I think one of the things from a
59:35
schools and teaching perspective on that is,
59:38
and we were talking about this funnily enough a few weeks ago on CTR,
59:42
is the lessening and lessening of the time for lunch and the sort of time for
59:48
play during lunch has lessened and lessened.
59:52
Students are much more supervised now during breaks. There's much less free
59:55
time, spare time to sort of go around.
59:57
Part of that is because of behavior. I think some schools have gone,
1:00:01
we need to really, you know, really structure and box up our lunchtimes into
1:00:06
shorter packages so we can monitor the behavior.
1:00:10
So I think that's the flip side of that in terms of what you're saying,
1:00:14
which I, by the way, on a personal level, it resonates with me and I agree with,
1:00:18
but also I guess the flip side to that is, you know, it does require trust in that.
1:00:24
Although what you're saying is and i had the same experiences as
1:00:27
you when i was a when i was a child is like
1:00:30
they you know we must have done that
1:00:33
in the past i guess is sort of trust children but
1:00:36
maybe you know that there is that sort of concern over
1:00:40
behaviors i guess i think in school i mean you know
1:00:43
the teachers they have to have the structure we get
1:00:46
that the reason we're talking about outdoor learning another
1:00:50
stuff is it is learning beyond that classroom when you're in that
1:00:52
traditional environment yeah absolutely they need
1:00:55
the structure behavior is not good so we have to sort of lock it down a little
1:01:00
bit more sometimes that that behavior i see is different when you get them away
1:01:05
from the classroom and yeah slightly different way of i don't know communicating
1:01:10
less formal maybe and and and the the facilitation side of it so i think.
1:01:16
Answering the question is really, it is the power of taking it beyond the classroom.
1:01:21
It is the power of a different environment that allows you to get different
1:01:24
outcomes on there. So, yeah.
1:01:28
Two questions to finish. Part one is if you could change one thing about how
1:01:32
schools or the government approach outdoor learning in the next five years, what would it be?
1:01:38
Well if you go to scotland and wales
1:01:41
are following it's being mandated about the
1:01:44
right for you know for residentials i know the
1:01:47
new national curriculum it's in there and it's a
1:01:49
right across certain subjects on there but it's it's a lot
1:01:52
softer approach on that and generally policy around the outdoors uh colleagues
1:02:00
in scotland and wales have kind of led on this and seen the real importance
1:02:04
of it and we have lagged somewhat and there's been less support for the sector,
1:02:10
money and resources and focus has gone into other areas
1:02:14
on there clearly you know
1:02:16
i wouldn't advocate for that but i can understand there's a lot of different
1:02:20
demands on the money and the resources but it would be putting this at the you
1:02:25
know really the heart of a whole you know a holistic education experience for
1:02:32
young people because the experiences they're getting.
1:02:37
You mentioned at the start, didn't you, the experience you had,
1:02:40
whether that was good or bad, you remembered it.
1:02:42
You still remember it, you know, today on that.
1:02:45
And it did stretch you. And I think it's, we definitely need to take the young
1:02:50
people on these journeys and stretch them and make them believe they can do more.
1:02:55
I think, you know, the outdoors is a perfect environment to achieve that.
1:03:00
Yeah yeah it's interesting i didn't know that actually about did
1:03:04
you say scotland and wales yeah the the
1:03:07
actually scotland is it's what you know a right
1:03:10
for the kids you know to have the residential whereas wales
1:03:13
are moving towards that they're slightly behind where scotland are and we've
1:03:17
got this sort of new national curriculum which is in there but it's kind of
1:03:20
more guidance rather than you know totally prescriptive so it's still easy to
1:03:25
say no that's the thing i'm saying in on that and we've got to find ways of saying yes.
1:03:32
Yeah yeah yeah i'll talk to you some other
1:03:34
time about urban experiences which is something else i'm thinking of because
1:03:38
i just say we've got i just think we can get the same environment you know experience
1:03:43
in an urban environment a different experience but say you know it'll still
1:03:49
hit some of the the key fundamentals that we want but we just got to get the
1:03:53
kids out and doing things more,
1:03:55
got you okay well it's been
1:03:58
a great chat you know really really enjoyed it what where
1:04:02
can teachers watching this who have
1:04:05
maybe tapped into this conversation and found something interesting
1:04:08
from it where can they go to find out more or
1:04:11
specifically if they're interested in even even embarking
1:04:15
on outdoor education and they're thinking we haven't done this
1:04:17
we need to do it yeah sure you put the website
1:04:20
up before active learning group.co.uk you
1:04:24
can follow me Nigel Miller on LinkedIn on on there be great to say say hi to
1:04:30
you on on there if you go to active learning group you'll see the different
1:04:34
businesses within there so you can drill down into into their sites and then
1:04:39
the social media that hangs off that as well but if anybody's.
1:04:43
Got any further questions or want some ideas or some support or anything,
1:04:49
just pop into my LinkedIn, say hi, and I'll help you from there.
1:04:55
Brilliant. I mean, just to emphasize, if you want to connect with Nigel,
1:04:58
just head to LinkedIn, Nigel Miller, Active Learning Group, you'll find him
1:05:02
there and obviously have a chat with him about anything we've discussed.
1:05:07
I've taken a huge amount of that out of that tonight. So thank you very much
1:05:11
indeed, Nigel, for that.
1:05:13
Loads to think about and to sort of reflect on.
1:05:17
And yeah, this will be available as well as a podcast. So if anybody's just
1:05:21
joining in now, then you can download this as a podcast through all the usual
1:05:26
places in a couple of days time. It will be out on Spotify, Apple Podcasts,
1:05:29
Amazon Music, et cetera.
1:05:31
But if you want to catch up now, then you can do that in all the usual places,
1:05:35
is YouTube, Facebook, LinkedIn, and X.
1:05:39
So yeah, Kay also says, love what
1:05:43
you're about. Great advocate for outdoor learning. Keep up the great work.
1:05:46
So Nigel, thank you very much indeed.
1:05:49
And we'll see you soon. You've been listening to Teachers Talk Radio.
1:05:54
Tune in live and listen back at ttradio.org.
1:05:59
We look forward to hearing from you next time on Teachers Talk Radio.
1:06:06
Thank you.