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AIM High: The role real assets play in a portfolio · Two in Twenty

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another episode of AI.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Twink Field.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host for these podcasts, which cover a range of subjects across industry and product and career development.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: And today we are getting more involved on the product side.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about real assets.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: We've seen many more campaigns and certainly in White Marble, a lot more work related to this area.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so we thought it would be really good to explore it with a couple of experts.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Today we've got Rulie Riel from Morningstar.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: She's the head of manager selection there, as well as Alex Farlow, who is head of risk-based solutions at Square Mile.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: So over to them.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Enjoy.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, thank you both so much, Rulie and Alex, for joining me today to talk about real assets and the kind of role that they play in a portfolio.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's very much just as a gentle walkthrough for marketers to really get to grips with why we're seeing such a growth in the campaigns around these types of assets.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: So just as a way to kick off, Rudy, maybe you could introduce yourself and your role, and then I'll come to you, Alex.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hi.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Rudy Fulyun.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: I um am head of manager selection for Morningstar's Manager Selection Services Team.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've been with Morningstar for just over 11 years now, having originally joined Morningstar when they acquired OBSR in 2010.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Alex?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, hi everyone.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm Alex Farlow.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm head of risk-based solutions research at SquareMile, and I cover all things multi-asset as well as Asian and emerging market equities.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've worked in the industry now, I hate to say it, for over 20 years in various research roles, and I've been at Square Mile since launch in 2014.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: Super duper.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think the best way to start this conversation is to for us to define really what we mean by real asset so that everybody knows what what the starting point is.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um so who would like to sort of give their version of that first?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I'm happy to start off.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think for most of us in the industry um up until recently, um the the main asset class that we have that investors and we have thought of when we refer to real assets has been property and then also to some extent infrastructure projects or infrastructure investments.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think in the in the context of financial markets, uh, we think of that in the form of open-ended funds.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Although I think when we're thinking about property, um it's also important to highlight that most people, to the extent that they own a home, uh, probably already own a real asset.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: But from an investment point of view, I'd say historically we've mainly thought of them in the form of property infrastructure, um, and then maybe also things such as uh gold, natural resources, but I think we um anything that we consider to be a physical asset is what we'd consider to be a real asset.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So all these sort of projects around windmills and forestry and things like that, is that all under you typically bracket under infrastructure?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yes, absolutely.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that is um considered, as I say, a tangible asset.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So something that has a physical aspect to it would I would consider to be a real asset.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe just to uh help people visualize it a bit more and slightly further, what would be kind of typical examples of of investments in this space?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think as Ruly alluded to before, um property is fairly well known.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you have various open-ended um property companies.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, unfortunately, some of them have been in the news more recently because um you haven't been able to get your money out.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I guess that's not anything that that's that's new.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um you've got investment trusts um which invest into direct property as well.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and investment trusts and closed-ended vehicles seem to be much better structures um for dealing with these illiquid assets.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: And plus, you've got global RITs, which invest in property companies which own properties as well.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and sticking on that property theme, there's there's been um that there's a number of specialist property vehicles out there as well, which specifically invest in things like care homes and doctor surgeries, um, student accommodation and um warehousing.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: They've become particularly popular.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um on the infrastructure, and so uh names like um GCP, student living, civitas social housing, um, Tritek's big box are quite well widely held by a number of multi-asset investors.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um on the infrastructure side, one of the biggest infrastructure companies is Hickle, um, which invests in lots of different global infrastructure projects.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and on the closed-ended side, you've got companies like Legmace and Rare Infrastructure.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, you've got investment trusts, which invests directly in physical mining.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, quite a topical one in 2018 was CATCO, which is um insurance contracts, which are catastrophe insurance.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, unfortunately, that particular vehicle is now in runoff given the um wildfires and hurricanes that occurred in 17 and 18.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think it highlights whilst a number of these investments are seen as diversifying investments, they're not without their underlying risks, which are um and can be very different to those um of other businesses.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think another um thing to bear in mind is a lot of um funds try and get access to real assets via equity um instruments, so things like gold funds, uh, Fidelity used to have a real assets fund that was run by Amit Loder, um, but that subsequently was closed and merged into his global equity focus fund.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the reason people try and offer investors access to real assets via funds that are investing in equities is to overcome the liquidity issue that Alex has alluded to.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the thing that people have to be mindful of is that when you're investing in equities, even though you're investing in something that is backed by a real asset, they have the beta of equity markets.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so they don't necessarily offer you the characteristics of diversification and stability that you would be thinking you were accessing if you were investing in a real asset fund.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the Fidelity Real Assets Fund, as an example, used to invest predominantly in the cyclical parts of the market.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so lots of exposure to things like industrials or stocks that fall in the industrial sector.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: So that meant it was it probably had an above-average uh liquidity and in an and in a market environment such as the one that we've had for the last few years, where people have mainly been focused on investing in quality growth, defensive areas of the market, a fund like that would have been very, very volatile.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the same within property, you can access investments in property via bricks and mortar funds, but you can also access them via real estate investment trusts.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: Again, those are equities, and so the return profile is likely to correlate much more closely to that of an equity portfolio than what you would expect a property portfolio to give you.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's just something to be aware of is that when you're accessing real assets via equities, you you're getting partly an equity profile, not a real asset stable profile.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's right, Ruly.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think we we we saw that a couple of the infrastructure funds um that we invest in in 2018, in the final quarter, um when we saw the markets fall, they protected much better than global equities.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um but in the recent bount of uh volatility and drawdown that we see that we saw, um they behaved in line with global equities.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there are occasions when they can provide diversification.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but when when everything correlates to one um and investors are just trying to sell, then that they do sell off and do behave um just just like equities.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was just gonna say, is it worth just touching on why and and maybe you know, just to ask the question, have we seen allocation to these types of assets?
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: And if so, why and what investor demand are they sort of serving?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um really, maybe you could talk to that.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think it depends on when you say, have we seen allocations to these increases?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on um what um market you're looking at.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if we are talking about the um multi-asset fund a fund world, then I would say yes, we have seen allocations to these increases because increasingly multi-managers are aware of this growing need for income.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, on the whole, they have not liked the traditional sources of of income, which has been bonds.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and where they have invested in bonds, um, they've tended to invest in higher risk bonds, so um anything from high yield and emerging market debt and um and an investment grade, although obviously that wouldn't be as high risk as high yield and emerging market debt, and they've been avoiding um largely been avoiding government bonds.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: So their portfolios, however, still have a significant need, and their clients have a significant need for income, and so they've been trying to access this income by investing in some of these alternative asset classes.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: When so I'd say in the multi-manager space, yes, I think we have seen an increased demand for real assets, and um and that probably includes any fund groups that are running DFM type portfolios too.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: If I think about the more traditional model portfolios that are using a long-term strategic ast allocation and that are being used by advisors to help construct client portfolios, I would say I don't think so.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: The traditional strategic asked allocations that we have used to run portfolios on behalf of our clients have typically only ever included property as an alternative real asset in the estallocation.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: And most recently, because of the liquidity problems that have once again been highlighted in traditional bricks and mortar property funds, we're actually starting to receive astallocations where the astallocation provider has been asked to specifically exclude property from the portfolios.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And if I look at our own astallocation that we use for our long-term strategic model portfolios, we actually removed property from the portfolios, I think back in 2016, um, and we haven't and we haven't reintroduced it.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not sure that we would because when you are dealing on an individual client basis and you have an asset allocation that includes um an asset that suddenly becomes non-tradable, it becomes very, very tricky.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Alex, how do you balance that with the sort of the search for income with the you know uh the kind of additional risk, liquidity or otherwise that that can bring?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think um I'd echo what Ruly said, and and just in terms of, I mean, we haven't been investing in in property and bricks and mortar um for a while now, given um liquidity issues, but we do use um some infrastructure funds and some asset-backed securities or some asset-backed um securities funds within the portfolio, and that is generally to provide um a higher natural income for our clients.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and when we're thinking about the the funds to to invest in, um, you know, you have to you have to consider where in the market um that they're aiming at, um, what their I guess their USP is in terms of their management team.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So not all of these funds are going to be playing in in the same space.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you have to understand exactly what they're trying to achieve.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and as a business, we prefer those that are um so from an asset-backed securities perspective, those that are investing in um, I guess, lower risk typed securities rather than the the uh the higher risk end of the market.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and do you, I guess in your assessment of these types of assets alongside any other of your investments, you're still looking at the sort of ESG sort of principles and that, you know, looking at the risks there as well.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Do they do they stand up as well as other investments in that regard?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, that's an interesting question and and and very topical at the moment.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it is something that we we certainly um look at.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that ESG is really a you know is at the forefront of everyone's thinking at the moment.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I think to be fair, most companies um that are investing have have thought about the governance aspect um of the companies that they're investing in, and they've thought about that for many years, and that's always been ingrained within the process.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think the the the social and the environment, environmental aspect is something that people are thinking more and more about, and it is certainly something that we look at.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: But um, you know, as long as the the the funds that we're investing in are very clear um about how they go about looking at those types of uh at those types of um factors and what they're happy to include and don't include in their portfolio, then you know, we're happy to to invest, even if the ESG score um is slightly lower, as long as they're upfront about that, as long as we know that, then um, but I I think it is very topical.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: As Alex says, it has become so topical.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think the first thing to um to be aware of when you're looking at this ESG space is which of the streams of ESG are you actually talking about and referring to when you when you reference ESG.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um traditionally in the UK uh we had uh a reasonable amount of funds that did negative screening.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's now sort of seen as the as the starting point.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And um, although when people think about ESG in today's terms, I don't think um the negative screening aspect necessarily features um highly in that table.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Then you've got um what I'd call the sort of conventional ESG, which it which plays to the E, the S, and the G, and um, and Alex, as Alex has said, um the extent to which funds in this in this real asset space um play into those themes varies uh on each of those components.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think the third one, which is probably um where we'll see growing interest and growing demand, and where certain aspects of real asset investing lend themselves naturally to this theme, is impact investing.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if we think about funds in the energy space where people can buy into wind and solar farms, as well as battery manufacturers and that invest in things like lithium and cobalt and other products involved in electrical vehicles, uh, I think those naturally play very strongly into the impact theme.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: But again, um to the extent that one is accessing those types of investments through equities, um, all the comments I made previously about equity investing come into play.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Another area would be in with in forestry where investments are having to meet deforestation laws.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think, and or infrastructure projects that tend to focus around societal improvement, um, those are all things that I think fall very naturally into the impact investing aspects of ESG investing.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just to add to that as well, I think um, you know, even in industries traditionally perceived as being kind of quite dirty industries, the mining um sectors, etc., I think there are companies that are probably at the forefront of being at the cleaner end of that, um, and those that would be perceived as you know at the at the other end.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and I and I do think that you know, companies need to be explicit about, you know, are they looking for improvements from those businesses?
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, this is the whole thing that Ruly mentioned, it's easy just to exclude certain areas of the market, but if you're not engaging and you're not including certain businesses, um, you know, you're not encouraging them to clean up their act.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I think there are businesses that are at very different ends of that scale.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, to be clear and up front in the marketing literature about exactly what sort of companies you're you're looking for is key there.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: Before we move on, are there any other sort of inputs and considerations?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: I guess when you you as um kind of fund selectors and sort of looking at the balance of the portfolios that you're managing, what are the other considerations, I guess, more broadly when you're looking at when you're typically putting together your portfolios?
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: Alex?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean we've we've mentioned um probably all of the areas already, but I'll I'll probably just recap.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So clearly, if it's their income products, then you know we want to look at the the level of income um that those uh assets are generating, and I guess where their income is being generated from, so that we we we're ensuring we're getting good diversification, um, whether that be from a sector perspective or whether it be from a regional perspective.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um obviously you want to look through your whole portfolio and make sure you have that diversification because it may look on the surface like um from a sector or from a global perspective, you are diversified, but it may be um quite heavily skewed towards um certain risk factors.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, clearly, liquidity and we'd mentioned it before, um, but clearly some of these assets are much more illiquid than others.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you want to make sure that you have enough liquid investments within your portfolio and enough cash within there to be able to deal with redemptions um if they do come.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, and an ESG um would would be another one.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, we run some ESG portfolios um for our clients, and and we want to make sure they hit a certain hurdle rate.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, they would be the key considerations.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, really.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: So and then a third and another point that I'd add is um I guess that the the key reasons why you are investing in the in this class are income and diversification.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: So um we've spoken about the income aspect.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd say with regard to the diversification, you want to make sure that the assets Are truly uncorrelated to the rest of the portfolio, and that there isn't too much similarity in directionality with the core portfolio, because if that is the case, you're just getting a watered-down version of what it is you're actually trying to achieve.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, and I think with with all of these things, there's a trade-off.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the um the key trade-off when it comes to real assets is probably the liquidity one.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's that's the one that one wants to get your head around most carefully in terms of understanding what are the um what are the stress points and and what are you what are you dealing with when when you get into that scenario?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: And and and to that end, I suppose more and more people are starting to question whether open-ended um vehicles with daily dealing are the right way to access these these investments.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what what would be the other ways, just sort of more broadly, Rudy, to that point?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think um Alex mentioned them right at the beginning.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_00: He spoke about um closed-ended um vehicles.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: That that's that's definitely a better way.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then you also um you can access them through um sort of private equity type structures, but then you know, when you start moving into that realm, then you're moving away from just your um regular retail investor, you're talking about very, very high minimums, you're talking about unregulated investment schemes.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so those are potentially not, you know, that that I guess that alone that in itself suggests that um these are not necessarily always investments for the average um man on the street.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, and so it's it's important to think, well, if this is an investment that is most suitable to something with a very, very high minimum, a long lock-in, um, it's unregulated.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, is it something that we should be looking to offer to a retail investor?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I guess with the kind of market volatility that we're seeing, you know, that's very much the kind of conversation that's sort of been kind of thrust to the fore.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you do you think as a result we'll see a demand for different types of products or different products a result of this market that we're going through now?
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Alex?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of, I mean, in in terms of what we've what we've seen more recently, where all asset classes have sold off, I'm not sure that we'll see a significant um increase from here, certainly over the next couple of years for um you know, for real assets, because I think as I alluded to before, in 2018, when markets um sold off in the in the fourth quarter, they did provide some diversification.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think the recent volatility as it has reminded everyone that these assets are not a silver bullet.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then when when investors are rushing for the exit, then they will fall in value.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And those diversification um factors that are that are so um important, um, you know, that they they tend to disappear.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I I think that in terms of demand for for this area, it will continue within the institutional um space where they tend to have um, I guess, a longer-term mindset and can weather the ups and downs and are not forced to sell.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um but in the retail space, um, you know, I I think this has been a reminder and and may not um you know, may not increase demand for from here.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: I guess, I guess one of the advantages of real assets funds, even though they're in an open-ended um structure, is because they invest not just in infrastructure or in asset backed securities or property, they invest across a broad spectrum of assets.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and you're investing smaller amounts into a more diverse pool, um, they can provide greater diversification properties than investing just say in an infrastructure or in an asset-backed securities fund.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there are some advantages of the open-ended structure for real assets, and there are some benefits of that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Anything to add there, Rooney, before I look to sort of close this off with a couple of, well, one final question around you know, some tips for marketers.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I'd say to the extent that we see more demand, um that would probably be driven by their ability to prove that they're achieving what they set out to achieve, particularly in times like the one we're just living through now.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if property is the is most people's sort of frame of reference, their most recent experience has been negative in the sense that the property funds have closed and people have no idea when they may reopen.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's not something that's likely to generate more demand for a product.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: But the property is not the only um real asset play that's available.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_00: So to the extent that people are aware of or hold investments that have um proved their mettle in this current market, um, I think yes, we would we would see increased demand, but um the headlines right now are not in their favour in the sense that it's property that most people still have as their as their frame of reference.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um so yes, just cycling back really as we sort of wrap wrap this up, um, for the kind of our core audience for this podcast being being marketers, thank you so much for talking us through all of the sort of the uh the kind of real assets area of the market.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I guess for marketers, we touched a bit on kind of how we present the credentials, maybe the ESG elements of these products.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: How would you uh advise marketers um in terms of how they can showcase the capabilities of their company to I I think I don't think it differs significantly to what we'd say to any other asset class, really.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think we'd say um present the facts um in an honest and transparent manner, um, be clear about what the fund is and isn't, um, where it invests and where it won't invest.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, showcase the uh pedigree of the investment team, their experience.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think just be honest with investors around the fact, I mean, I think investors understand that there isn't a silver bullet.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, everyone wants the nirvana of um a higher return with no risk, and and it doesn't exist, unfortunately.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if it did, I would certainly bottle that.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I and I think it's just you know, be honest about the challenges because I think if people can understand when these funds might be challenged more so, then I think they're much more likely to remain invested, not panic.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, if things are in line with their expectations, whether they like it or not, they tend to behave much more logically.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I I would just say um be be very clear uh about what it is, um, you know, and and be open and honest with investors.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'd I'd agree with all of that.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say in these early stages, um there is as much a need for education as there is for marketing.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So any um any literature that can be produced that is as much educational as it is promotional just helps um frame people's expectations.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because ultimately, as Alex says, um, if you're investing in something where you understand the opportunity and the risk, you can frame your expectations in a realistic way.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, when the tougher times come, you're less likely to be uh disappointed if it's in line with what you were expecting from the investment in the first place.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's brilliant and really clear and great advice for all marketers.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you both so very much for sharing your expertise and experience with us today.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, really very grateful on behalf of all of us at the Association of Investment Marketers.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.