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UCC Admission Community Conversations Episode 7 | Beyond UCC · Upper Canada College Admission Community Conversation

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Community Conversations, a podcast series brought to you by the Upper Canada College Admissions team.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Nadia, and today we are diving into a question that is on the minds of so many prospective families, particularly as they look ahead to the upper years.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_02: What happens beyond UCC?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: When families imagine high school, it's completely natural to think about what comes next.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_02: But at Upper Canada College, we believe that preparing for the future isn't about rushing into university choices from day one.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: Today, we're going to explore how UCC prepares students beyond graduation, guiding boys to discover who they are and find their authentic passions while supporting them as they navigate global post-secondary options and prepare for meaningful, impactful lives.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: Our goal for this episode is to give you a window into the level of personalized care, self-discovery, and quiet confidence that shapes a boy's journey here.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm so thrilled to be joined by two wonderful guests today, Dr.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Michelle Mindorf, our Director of University Counseling, and Eric An, a young alum from Class of 2022, who is currently navigating his own post-secondary journey.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: And Eric, I remember you coming through the admission process here at UCC.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just so lovely to be reconnected with you.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mendorf and Eric, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_02: To kick things off, I'd love for each of you to briefly introduce yourselves to our listeners.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Dr.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Mendorf, can we start with you?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Nadia.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what a lovely uh framing of meaningful, impactful, and quiet confidence.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what we do here at UCC and uh at the IB as well.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm Michelle Mindorf.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I am starting new as the director of the University Counseling Office.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: I come directly from Singapore where I worked with the International Baccalaureate, servicing over 300 schools in support of the four IB programs.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And prior to that, I worked in international schools in administration and university counseling and academic leadership most recently in the Bahamas, in Chengdu, China, Hungary, Romania, and at Branksham Hall, right here down the road.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm very fortunate to be working with five other professionals in the university counseling office who are deeply passionate about their craft and who have a broad experience.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we bring the weight of five others, six of us in total in the university counseling office to, as um UCC says, to never walk alone.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we give you a launch out into the big wider world out there.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's my pleasure to be here to share those stories with you.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm we're again just deeply grateful to have you joining us and um here.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll be working really closely as we go through this uh process with our new families that'll be coming in.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Eric, over to you.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Nadia.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's actually funny that you mentioned it because I was just thinking about how when I was in grade six when I first met you, also during my application process and like in the old admissions house.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really funny to think back on.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, anyways, so my name is Eric.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: I graduated the class of 2022, so about four years ago, but it seems still like I I was there very recently.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and afterwards, um, once graduating from high school, I went to McMaster for the health sciences program.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: And now I'm my second year of med school at the University of Toronto.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: So um just recent graduates, so hopefully can chat a little bit more about that experience in high school and that transition.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, otherwise just happy to be here and happy to have this chat.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So happy to have you back.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I forgot that you actually started way back when we were based in the admission house versus here, you know, in the prep school.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was, it feels like a lifetime ago, but strangely, it also feels like just yesterday that you were here.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Dr.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: Mendorf, we're gonna uh kick things off uh with you.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dive right in.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: When prospective families think about university counseling, I know like they often you know default to thinking about the deadlines and the testing and and the application forms.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: How does the university counseling office partner with the boys and their families early on in the upper school to focus on self-discovery and personal growth first?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's a wonderful question.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate that.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, first to acknowledge uh university application post-secondary application is procedural.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Each different destination has a different set of requirements, processes, deadlines, procedures.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: So you use the word partner, we are partners with the families, with the boys on that, led by the boys.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we, you you talked about personal growth.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: We, through the whole process of the academic and extracurricular program here, teach boys how to find their voice, how to self-advocate by, as I referred to before, providing those structures.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So they've got all the information that they can lean into, and then we're there to sometimes give that added.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure Eric will remember this push reminder.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: We've got all sorts of structures in place so that they don't fall through the cracks.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we're experts in the procedure, but that actually doesn't necessarily mean that we know everything.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: We have expertise in reading the websites and interpreting the information to unpack it for the students and families to help them.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: So eventually they'll be able to do that on their own, which as you know, uh they have to at university.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: But what we like to say when we begin that personal growth exploration when they enter UCC, because we focus on supporting boys so that they're well-rounded in their development, right?
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: From the prep school, they're exposed to all sorts of different ways of learning, of experiences to get the widening of their brain so that they won't say no to anything.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: You're playing outside, you're doing art, you're doing music, you're trying all sorts of different things, you're experimenting in a positive way.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the IB attributes is being a risk taker.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And it's a we we appreciate that in a constructive approach, that you'll try different things because you'll never know what might come out of it once you're faced with that.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that process of skills development ultimately leads to competencies that I'm sure Eric can recognize when the students start to look at different programs and realize, okay, I know how to do this because I was in the Lego club or I was in the robotics club, and now I'm in physics class, and all of this is coming together, and I can see, you know, my future path or not.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay too.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's absolutely okay too.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: But again, it's the exposure to that.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we talk about the wide range of experiential learning, whether it be um going to the Norville Center or just participating and winning the teams or going on some of the cast trips or volunteering in different community impact organizations or learning how to set up their own club because the club doesn't exist here.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: We say at UCC that we um are a challenging institution, but challenge is good because it helps you to think in different ways.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the IB says.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our own view doesn't preclude the view of others.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's something that we're taught in the inquiry process.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: But there's so many opportunities to learn as well.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn in a loud way, you can learn in a quiet way, all at service of figuring out your own path, your own unique um fingerprint.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's also based on values clarification, all the way from the prep up.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: You're making choices, but again, in a secure, safer environment.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't fall too far if some of those choices are not innate of well-being of others and peaceful uh collaboration.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think key is because we're an IB school as well, in a multicultural city, we're understanding uh different perspectives.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I won't say alternative perspectives because we all know very well in the world everyone believes their own perspective is necessarily the right one.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there's multiple ways.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So we focus in attitudes and approaches to being an effective learner, and that's emphasized all the way through and valuing that pathway that leads to a sense of self, your own voice, and a deep interest and care about the world and others around you, and the five values that UCC talks about, embedded in pluralism and learning and service to others, the whole idea that we're in a privileged position to begin with, to be here anyway, that we can help.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we have to figure out how we are going to help.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: When the students come into the high school, we have a bridging program starting in grade eight where we're talking about approaches to learning a little bit more now that they're in high school.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that tails into some of the other middle years program core areas of community project and personal project and how you do extended research and learning about integrity and research and so forth.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then students start to make some choices in grade nine.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: They can choose in within the arts.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then the big choices begin in grade 10, um, where they have to make choices uh for their diploma pathway, uh, whether it's courses or full diploma.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: We have now a pilot systems transformation project.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: But again, we're with them shoulder to shoulder, even when students are not sure if that's the right course or choice.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we support them in that through a course change process.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: So we have processes and structures for everything.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And at every touch point, the students are exposed to a variety of experiences so they can clarify what they like and what they don't like.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I'm going to emphasize they don't always have to know what they like.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay to say this is not a good fit, this is not a good fit, because that's the language that we ultimately use when we get to the university for post-secondary choices.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: Because gap years.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um we have students who are major league baseball players now, and you know, they're hockey players and they're choosing different paths when they leave um UCC.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the it's the idea is to have a path and to understand how to access the resources that we that we have.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we have structures, we have a variety of information, um, and we have a timeline of when we start to formally discuss with the boys so that they won't get lost in the process.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: And we we've not lost a young man yet.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: But the to go back to what I was saying about if it's a fit to be found and not a prize to be won.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: We we talk about what does success mean to you?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: And a success to an eighth grader is very different than success to an 11th and uh 12th grader, but they have to be comfortable in that definition.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: And comparison is the thief of joy, is something that we say all the time.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I just was at the alumni panel where we had a whole range of students from students in film at TMU to dual program at Wolford Laurie and Waterloo to Queen's Engineering.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And the keynote speaker was talking about I did business because I thought I was supposed to, and go to Bay Street.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: And now I'm I am serving Bay Street as an addictions counselor.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, finding that pathway in as safe way as possible is what we want.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: But we want through the prep all the way up, in the structured approach that we have, happiness and self, purpose and place, and engagement in the choices and owning them is how we support that personal growth.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then we also support with procedures.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, those procedures, we can't forget those.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, but it just sounds so fulsome, right?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're really supporting them from beginning to end.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: We actually start supporting our families, you know, before they even get here, before they even finish their, you know, their their current school.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_02: So um I love to hear that and thank you for um just sharing that so beautifully.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um Eric, I'm gonna I'm gonna move to you.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, Michelle, I'm gonna continue with you.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know I I do love the emphasis on finding the right alignment before, you know, looking at an application strategy.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So building on that, navigating post-secondary options globally, whether across Canada, US, UK, or international systems, it can feel pretty overwhelming for parents.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: How does your team help families navigate the global pathways so that they feel supported, confident, and de-stressed through the process?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all right.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so a little bit of stress is good.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure Eric can support this as well because it shows that you're engaged and you care.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but we we focus very much as the IB does, as UCC does, on well-being as well.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: So being prepared in advance, having a clear pathway, um, being aware of the information and giving yourself time to process that information and have the conversations is critical.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the alumni panel this morning, they talked about relationships.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So we work really hard to build strong relationships with our students and with the academic team as well, who are interacting with the students.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: All our counselors are have houses and we have them from the beginning when they enter grade eight all the way up.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: So we're building that long-term relationship.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a buildup of trust.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: We get to know the parents and the families really intensely when we start the course selection process in grade 10.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: But we again, building on that um scaffolding image, we do presentations to parents to explain the process.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have on Brightspace, we have a whole UCC course.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: So just like you would expect on any shopping website or university or college website, all the information is there.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: So students can read through it all of our slides and presentations.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: But then we offer an open door policy.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Any age, any grade level, parents or students can come in to say, I heard this, I thought of this, I read this, what does that mean?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's the beginning of the relationship.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: But like I said, and also importantly, in grade 10, a critical uh transition year, we have a careers course where they're actually going through a curriculum about careers and future planning.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And that's our jumping point to ensure that they're on our system.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Going back to scaffolding, we have a system called Navions where the students can engage in exploration and they can save, just like the Amazon shopping cart, they can save their thoughts and the colleges and universities they're looking at as a place for us to uh begin the conversation.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And then in grade 11 and 12, we have a very clearly structured timeline where there's support as an example.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, the grade 12s are not off on any trips this week.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: They've got the whole week to work on their IB deadlines, extended essay internal assessments, have presentations, we have a university, uh mini-university fair.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: We just had the alumni panel, and we have a full day Friday of mini workshops.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we've built up from when you enter UCC to by the time you get to grade 12 October, you actually probably know more or less.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I need to go to this workshop, I need to go to this workshop.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: And we even have just a QA.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure where I need to start or what button I'm supposed to press.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: So we really work hard to provide the, I like I said at the beginning, the challenges and the opportunities.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: We're pushing you, but only so far as you know, the zone of proximal development that is good for you to go with well-being at the center and what's important to you right now.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: You can hear our counselor saying, how's your extended essay going?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: I know the deadline is today.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: We don't need to talk about that tomorrow.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we're modeling, setting priorities, having the difficult conversations.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: Did you get your extended essay in?
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: What can I do to help you?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Did you talk to your supervisor so that the students are again building the skills of good communication, good research?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't use AI in any of these essays, did you?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go through the AI process.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and but creating that safe to answer the question about demystifying and building up that trust so that the students and parents feel they can come to us with anything and say, I'm not sure how to proceed.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Let's book a meeting, let's sit down, let's look at where you are with your numbers, with your essay, let's look at the universities together.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we're that safe thought partner.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the final thing that we do significantly to help demystify is we are an open book for university reps to come here.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: So we we have a whole plan of university reps to come where the students can ask all sorts of questions, meet them, and then we're teaching the students how to follow up with the reps as appropriate.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we do that on an individual basis.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: We also have fairs where they're learning how to go from table to table to have conversations.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I we go out and meet the universities at conferences and we visit the schools as well.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So again, going back to what we mentioned earlier, building those relationships up so that we can pick up the phone and say, hey, I've got a student, my student has this question, and they know who we are and they're comfortable um answering the questions for us.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: So we create an open, warm, welcoming space.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's it's okay to take risks to ask those questions, but we have clarity and structure as well.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I mean, I'm always so amazed at how supported our our students are, you know, throughout everything.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: We have um, I'm sure you've heard and used the the phrasing, wrap around support, you know.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Often when I'm with families, I always say, you know, back in my day we had a guidance counselor, and that one person was responsible for so many things, you know, your um, you know, your personal growth and development, yes, you know, post-secondary school, um, you know, pathways, trouble with friends, it's all the you know, all your one guidance counselor, but it's so lovely that uh, and we're very fortunate here uh for our students and our and our families to have the type of support, the level of support that they do um, you know, by department.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: So um, and I'm sure Eric can um testify to that too.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: It because we have we have specialized expert support, not only in the field of post-secondary pathways, but in the relationships with the students and understanding in great detail what they're going through right now.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you say to me, I've got a rowing competition in the Charles, I know what that means and what that student will be undertaking over the weekend.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I can help him prioritize.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's do this now.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: We can do this in five minutes.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: But again, it's modeling those skills so that when they go off, they've not only learned it themselves, but they've they've seen how it works.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure Eric can speak to that in great detail.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, this, you know, this partnership, it really does that support, it really does make a world of a difference for our families.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Eric, I'm gonna bring you into the conversation.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, prospective families always love hearing from alumni.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they don't like hearing the student voice, but you know, the alumni who have recently walked the path is such a perspective that they appreciate.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Take us back to your time in the upper school and how did and just tell us how did your teachers, your counselors, um, your experiences at UCC help you explore your interests and figure out what you wanted to do after graduation.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I love how we were talking about just like the special relationships that a lot of the students have with the faculty and the counselors and their advisors, because I think that's a huge underrated um aspect of being at the college and just like being in high school in general.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think we kind of underestimate just how long we like the student spends in school.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for most of us, it's eight hours a day.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it was more like 12 with sports.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, really, the teachers, counselors, and advisors that you see uh at the college are the ones that kind of get to know you a lot and get to know you very, very well.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just do like everyday conversations and whatnot.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think for me uh especially, I found that so many of my teachers and my counselors I found that we had like so many different smaller conversations throughout kind of my years from grade eight to grade 12 that have kind of built up over time to the point where they knew me almost as well as, for example, my parents, because I saw them basically the same amount of times.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's very interesting because like the college is set up in that way too, where you come back to the same teachers, you come back to the same advisors.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my grade eight math teachers, like my grade 10 math teacher, was my advisor in grade 11 and 12.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: In the IV specifically, you see the same teachers uh throughout those two years, and that's done purposefully because they get to know you better.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so they end up becoming a resource that so um that many of us, or at least I realized over time, I could go to, especially when I was lost in the moment, or just like even talking about my future.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and so it ended up being something that I slowly realized I could access and and you know be uh.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Vulnerable in those conversations and understanding that I'm not alone in this process.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so an example I like to give is kind of, well, I'm in medicine right now, but that was I wasn't quite set on that evening in grade 12.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I had a have a conversation with my biology teacher.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: It was like a 40, 45-minute conversation.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: He had known me for three to four years at that point.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it was really talking about my hesitancy of going into the field and you know, what if I'm not made for it?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: What if I'm not ready for it?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: And just having his perspective, his take on me knowing me all these years, and honestly the reassurance that he had given me and his belief in me was a huge motivator for why I kind of still went down this route.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that's like that small conversation is something that's happened quite often for me, even uh throughout grade 12 and the big years for applications where I kind of felt lost at times and felt a little confused as to which direction I wanted to go.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: Especially with my university counselor, um, I feel like I was annoying him a lot because I would just knock on his door like once a week and just chat about oh, here's an idea for an application, or here's an idea of like where I want to go with my next program because I was going like business, medicine, science, like all over the place at that time.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think just having those conversations and realizing you can have those conversations helped me really explore those interests career-wise.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think beyond that, uh just building on that emphasis on like well-being and and and the idea that your life is more than just your career and the university application, what university you go to.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that was a super huge thing for me as well.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like when it comes to my hockey, I was on the varsity hockey team, so with my hockey coach, as well as just generally with um a lot of my other uh faculty advisors, a lot of our conversations just revolved around what I enjoyed doing with my with my time outside of school and being able to learn more about myself and that uh journey of self-discovery that kind of attaches your own worth beyond just that career and beyond that university that I think a lot of us in high school really fixate on and worry about.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that was an important uh starting point at least to finding a balance of just like, okay, entering university, you're focusing in on yes, your career, but also what else can I do with my life outside of that and outside of um outside of worrying about the next thing and the next thing.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because in the field of medicine, like this never stops for me.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like I have a I'm gonna have a test every day of my life probably for the next nine years and why not.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so um just being able to find that balance is is is a huge emphasis to um that started off in the at UCC, which I think is important for a lot of high schoolers that would I think we're getting like we're always stressed out people anyway.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So it's nice to have that.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, both of you um touch on something really interesting there.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: And um we often hear that the top universities they do look for more than just the you know the high marks, and they are asking what else is there about you?
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, Eric, from the student perspective, how did UCC help you articulate your own story?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh man, that's uh for so this is something that actually I speak to a lot of parents.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, a lot of parents reach out to me, and a lot of uh students that are about to kind of go through this application process also reach out to me, just talking about you know, what can my kid do, or what can I do, or how can I, you know, tell my story so that um I can get into the program that I want to.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't have a direct answer because I'm still like in the middle of trying to figure out my own story, to be honest with you.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's I think that's something that you quickly end up realizing is like your own story is an iterative process.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had two major application processes at this point, one well, three if you count UCC, but in grade 12, applying to university, and then a year and a half ago when I was applying to med school, and I I found like what I was thinking from that point to a year ago from high school to now is like completely different, like my understanding of myself and everything.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I like to say like application seasons are like the best times to understand yourself because in order to best articulate who you are as a person, you genuinely have to be genuine and you have to figure that out.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I like to say that the counselors that we have, they're but like partners.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not the main driving force to telling you who you are, but they're individuals that can see all these things because they know you very well, as I was just mentioning, with these relationships that um that you end up building with your with your teachers and with those counselors.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they can help you process the things that you're doing in a way that help you understand yourself better.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: But but that journey has to come individually.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for me, for example, I did a lot of random things, at least in my eyes, it was very random.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: But uh in my core is something that I was passionate about that I enjoyed doing.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I was leading a business club that had like over a hundred members.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was um on the varsity hockey team, volleyball team, I think I was playing cricket at one point, um, and just like several other clubs at once.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And in terms of theme, it didn't seem like it fit anywhere, but you know, just talking about uh why I enjoyed the things that I did and having these kind of everyday conversations with uh anybody, really including my counselors, they kind of helped narrow things down into themes, whether that's through leadership, whether that's through advocacy, and better and it helped me better understand why I did the things that I did, and that helped me guide uh my purpose and and my drive and motivations into university where I started building off of that, where I joined our varsity team, but I also did a lot of advocacy work and I did a lot of roles that uh were leadership related because that was important to me.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'd like to say that from my perspective, it helped me process why I did the things that I did so that I can understand myself better and I can describe that to people, but also I can kind of use that knowledge to help uh further who I am with my future journey, whether that was an undergrad and now in med school.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I I think that was kind of the the key there.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's less about the counselors doing the job for you and more about them being that person that you can go to when you need to just have a chat about why things are happening or things that you're confused about, and and and it helps you sort all those things in your head so that you can uh find those things and figure those things out for yourself.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's great.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: And and thank you for you know adding that that that piece of clarity for me.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: So Dr.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: Mindorf, just you know, off of that, how does the you know the UCO department, how do they help, you know, how do they help the boys pull that authentic personal narrative together, even though we know it is something that's going to continue to evolve over time.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, to start with, if you're at UCC, you're already the kind of student uh who's ready to learn, uh lean in and take advantage of the various opportunities to engage in learning beyond what is is considered typical.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a mindset piece there.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: Second, both the Ontario curriculum and the IB qualification have a service requirement and an act, and an IB has an activity and a creative um requirement.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a standard expectation that if you're an IB student, you're going to be involved beyond academics.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be active, you're going to do something creative, knitting club.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're going to learn how to play the recorder, that you know, you're keeping your brain elastic and going.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like with scaffolding, the structure's there.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a requirement.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: And there's learning outcomes related to that.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just hours, it's what did you gain from this?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: What were your goals?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's using the SMART goal framework.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: So going back to what I talked about before, all the opportunities, whether it's academic or extracurricular or related to creativity, activity, and service, um, has expectations.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: They're not just checking a box.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it goes back to what goal did you set and what did you gain from that goal?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um Eric might remember the middle years program design course and the design cycle.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: What was the problem?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: What are the different solutions?
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: What did you engage in to carry them out?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what's your reflection?
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that reflective piece is critical.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I heard Eric talking about.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um so the third thing that we do in support of what I've just said is we're helping students go beyond themselves.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because Martin Seligman, who was um uh head of the American Psychological Association, talked about what does well-being and resilience mean?
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we're a finite vessel.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's only so much you can do of focusing on yourselves.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And the minute you start going beyond yourself, that's how you're you're gathering the ammunition to be happy.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it it fills up with your resilience um pod as well.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: So universities are looking beyond grades, they're looking at impact.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: How do we do that?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: We'll create the structures within the school so the students have the experiential learning through, like I mentioned, with the CAS, the the all the requirements there.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then the clubs Eric talked about are here, and there's an absolute open invitation of the club.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: The student doesn't see a club he's interested in.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: He learns how to set one up and take leadership, like we heard Eric talking about.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the key things I think here are the safe places for relationships where, as Eric said, a student can come into the UCO and just start talking, right?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And our job is to listen.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're going to talk about all the different questions they have, the experiences they have.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: So in that partnership, then we can help weave the story.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like the magic sauce or the magic sparkle dust.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I had one student who's doing a Latin extended essay, and he's um he said, I'm all over the place.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do engineering.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, That's an amazing story.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let's weave this together kind of thing.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we listen and we want the students to be frequent flyers into our office, just popping their head in for a snack or just say, I read this, I looked at this program, and by doing by creating that warm, welcoming environment with structure and expectations, um, we can listen and help them weave that story together.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: So following up on that, Eric, high school it is a time of intense personal growth and plans don't always move in a straight line.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Was there ever a time where your interests evolved or you felt uncertain?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and how did you know how did the school support support you?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean I feel like it's it's normal to have a very difficult time uh in in high school, especially in a school like UCC where it can be very intense academically.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um you can feel a lot of pressure.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I won't lie, for me, I was the stereotypical, like stressed-out high school student that was always worried about the marks and and what the future kind of holds for me.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that when you face a lot of uh struggle, you you end up uh you end up relaxing a bit more actually, and you end up learning that um through that process you there's a lot more to uh well life than than just what what comes next and what what degree comes next and and what undergrad and what university comes.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me that moment came when uh it was around grade grade 12 in the middle of grade 12 where I was playing uh at a hockey tournament, I got a concussion, and it took me out for four to five weeks in around December and January, which is a pretty difficult time to be having any time off because that's in the middle of IB exams, that's in the middle of applications where the US are just ending, and the the Canadian ones are basically around that application deadline period as well, if I remember correctly.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's probably the worst time.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, it was like, what am I doing?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what am I gonna do?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because I couldn't see, you know, have a screen in front of me for two weeks.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I was writing things on pieces of paper, I was stressed out of my mind.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think what really helped me a lot was just taking things day by day and and also the the support system that the people around me at the college kind of came around and and and helped um helped me progress through that difficult time.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so this didn't only come in the form of my teachers, it also came in so many other support uh areas that UCC has, whether that is university counseling, whether that's um with the the learning, uh, the learning team as well, where I kind of just had a plan the second that I got back into school.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they helped me kind of ease my mind by setting up a weekly plan where they already communicated with my teachers to figure out okay, here's how you're gonna come back from from all these tests you might have missed, all these assignments you might have missed, and we'll get you there and we'll get you back.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And also I had my teachers always checking in on me constantly, so I never felt like I was alone for sure.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of these teachers that I had, you know, during this difficult moment that came and helped me and supported me, I'm still in touch with to this day.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, whether that is with um, I think I like I just had lunch with my hockey coach, for example.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I still keep in touch with a lot of other kind of um my chemistry teacher, as well as uh my econ teacher, like all of these guys, all these uh teachers are are were super important during that time for me, and people that I still keep in touch with and and had built lifelong connections because of that.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and from that experience for me, I think I started realizing that there was a lot more value to just like the applications and just like stressed it about everything that comes from it.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: A lot more came just like you know, taking care of yourself, making sure that um you kind of better understand your own path and your own journey to wherever you go.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next steps, and and and then and it's nice to of course get to their get to point A to point B the fastest possible, but it's there really is no rush to to do so as long as you're making sure that your own well-being is taken care of.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: And and so that's kind of like one of the most one of the more difficult times I had in grade 12.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I definitely think that that was an important life lesson for me because if I didn't have that, I'd probably be stressed going into university to an undergrad um and stay like that.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that was kind of something that the UC support system really helped um in terms of getting me back to where I needed to go and back on my feed, but also just teaching me that lesson.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thank you for that.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great story.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Dr.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: Mindorf, from your perspective, after you know, guiding many, many, many families, um what does true post-secondary ready readiness, you know, um, and I say readiness in air quotes, what does it look like, you know, beyond academic grades?
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that's a wonderful supportive question.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the answer is you're ready if you know how to fail well, um, as Eric just talked about.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: When you're faced with uh vagaries of life, with things, especially coming from an environment where everything went your way.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: You made the team, you're getting the grades, you're in the classes you want to be, you're in this warm, lovely wraparound environment, like we say.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when things don't go your way, or a relationship didn't work out, or you didn't get the grade that you wanted, or you didn't perform the way you wanted to perform, how do you deal with that?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_00: And how do you, that's resilience, pick yourself up and say, okay, this is not what I wanted, but this is where I am right now, and having the faith that things will work out in ways that possibly you haven't even imagined.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it's developing, I think, the bravery to say, no, in a social situation, this is not for me.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, no, I'm looking at this program.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be swayed by all of you saying we have to apply to these Ivies.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: This dual program at these two schools who maybe don't have the same recognition that you're talking about are a good fit for me.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: I need a small school where I don't have to, you know, watch how much my food is being charged and a bed that's long enough for me.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, what's important, you know, it all goes back to being brave about who you are and what's important to you and not apologizing uh for it as long as it's not illegal or hurtful to anyone else or unethical.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: So building that competencies, right, and confidence.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And people can have competencies and lack confidence and people can be highly confident and don't have the competency.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: So those two things together, and it all goes back to those experiences of failure and challenge and how you deal with them in an impactful way.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the three things I'd like to mention is impact, you know, and agency.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um students understanding when they've got confidence would understand that they've got agency, that their presence in a class, in a meeting, in a conversation on a team has impact and is meaningful because they know what they can and cannot do.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as Eric talked about, he couldn't do certain things after his injury.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a smart person to say, I'm not going to even try to do that.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or the the other side of that is uh, you know, everyone's saying I've got the math grades to apply for engineering, but I really do not like fiddling with small things, or I'm not going to architectural school because I don't like drawing and graphing, even though everyone says I've got the mind for it.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: I really want to study film.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: So having the bravery and the self-awareness for that.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that leads to character.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: You develop a sense of who you are, of your own voice and what you stand for.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's um what universities are looking for.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: They want a variety of different characters who are going to stay in university, who will thrive.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what the IB program does.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Even there's a study done in 2015, I believe, that said students coming through IB programs, whether or not they pass them, they're still more likely to thrive in universities because they know who they are and they know how to fail and fail well.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: And part of that is setting realistic SMART goal framework of what works and what doesn't work.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And again, not putting yourself in a situation where you're not going to flourish.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how you know that you're you're you're ready because you have character, you, you know how to have impact, you know when to say something, you know when not to say something, um, and you know how to fail well.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and that that perspective is it's so valuable.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um thank you so much for that.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: To bring our conversation home, I'd really love to ask each of you for one final takeaway.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: So for a prospective family listening today, perhaps with the son applying to the upper school, what is one piece of advice or reassurance you'd offer as they look ahead to these high school years?
• 41:50
  unknown: Dr.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_02: Mandorf, let's start with you.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, being a parent is the most challenging job that you can have in the world.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: I I have four, four sons.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they've they've all gone through the process.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so it is it is the most worrying thing.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say have the confidence that Upper Canada College will take care of your son as closely as you do.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: We are in this profession because we care deeply and we love the relationships and helping launch these young men.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: The second piece of advice I'd give to parents is give your students, your children, exposure and the experiences.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in my in my household, we had the rule, you had to do two sports and two music.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then as they got older, we said, okay, you don't have to do the double bass anymore, but you still have to keep one thing.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Having that ability to go beyond what's you what's known and what's comfortable is is really, really important because it helps with values clarification and that builds confidence that if you can play an instrument, you can get on the sports field if you've never seen a soccer ball in your life, but you're going to figure it out.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and okay, if you kick the ball into your own net, you'll figure out how to deal with that as well.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you might decide, okay, soccer is not for me.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to play hockey, I'm going to play tennis.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_00: It just give it giving the experiences there.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then as a family, having conversations about and reflections about those experiences.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then that speaks to what does success mean for us in our family?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like?
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I can tell you, as a mom of four boys, and as you said, Nadia, someone who's launched a lot of students around the world, um, you want your children, we want our students to be happy.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: And happiness is we define that.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and again, comparison is the thief of joy.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Don't let anyone take your own joy away from you.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to climb trees, even though you have a master's degree in urban planning, which was my eldest son.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it brings you, it brings you joy and you have impact in the world.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: And you're making the world a more peaceful place in one way or another.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you've found your place.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I really, and I'm sure our parents and families are really gonna appreciate, you know, not just um the professional respectful uh professional reflection, but you know, you able to have your parent hat on as well.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um so thank you for that.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Eric, your closing thought.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for me, it's it's difficult to give something uh that's like a blanket statement.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I think every family um depending on on their situation and context can can can help from from some different pieces of advice.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Coming from like me personally and my family, my family had no idea where private schools were when we were applying.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh my mom kind of just applied off a whim after hearing about UCC from a uh a coworker.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think for us when we applied, we didn't think anything of it.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: We we were worried about financial reasons.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: We we were like, can well they were like, can can I even survive in in that atmosphere?
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, we lived also kind of far away, so the travel distance as well would be too hard on the family.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so all of those considerations, I think, I think coming from that perspective, for me, I would have just told my family to just like give it a shot.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at the end of the day, it doesn't hurt to try.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's amazing supports both financially, but also just for the student within the college uh to help them succeed.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest thing I'd say is once you go to the college, uh don't set crazy high standards or expectations on the kid to kind of and and and and almost predetermine their journey.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I find that so many of my friends right now are like who who didn't necessarily go to private school are saying, oh, I'm gonna send my kid to private schools because they're gonna like become this great successful person.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's like unfair expectations to set because I don't think going to you going to UCC is necessarily the magic wand to bring uh your child to medicine or to investment banking if that's something that um is that if that's how we quantify success.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I do think it's it's a place that can really help with self-discovery, can really help with just helping you reach your potential because there's so many opportunities to reach for and grab.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and I think that's something that is really important to emphasize for for any person or family or kid.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: Eric, thank you so much.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for keeping it real.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um thank you both, Dr.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: Mandorf and Eric, for sharing your time and your insights with us, your stories.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: So valuable.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you to our listeners for tuning in to Beyond UCC.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Whether your son is joining us in the early years or entering high school, our team is here to support your family every step of the way.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_02: To learn more about our academic programs, university counseling, or the admission process, please visit our website or reach out directly to the admission office.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Be sure to listen to other episodes in our community conversation series to learn more about life at UCC.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Until next time, take good care.