Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Culture Coach or Chaos Couch?

Transcript

Culture Coach or Chaos Couch? · Roast the Post Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_03: Hi, I'm Jen.
0:02
SPEAKER_03: Job postings are rarely just job postings.
0:05
SPEAKER_03: On Roast the Post, we unpack the story behind the bullet points.
0:08
And in this episode,
0:09
there's more being said than the posting probably intended.
0:13
SPEAKER_03: So without further ado, let's roast.
0:20
SPEAKER_03: I have a post for you.
0:22
SPEAKER_03: You ready?
0:24
SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
0:26
SPEAKER_00: You have no idea how ready I am.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: I've been ready all day.
0:31
SPEAKER_03: Wow, you need to get a life.
0:33
SPEAKER_03: No, just kidding.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: February in Canada, what do you expect?
0:38
SPEAKER_03: February in Canada.
0:40
SPEAKER_03: So job title, culture coach, reporting to, doesn't say.
0:45
SPEAKER_03: The company's size is categorized in the 500 to 1,000 employee count.
0:51
SPEAKER_03: But what I could find online was that it's about 584 employees.
0:56
SPEAKER_03: The industry is IT services and IT consulting.
1:00
SPEAKER_03: And what the company does to summarize,
1:03
they use AI for software solutions to bridge the gap between
1:06
technology and
1:07
SPEAKER_03: business strategy to drive faster execution,
1:10
SPEAKER_03: lower risk,
1:11
SPEAKER_03: and scale growth.
1:13
SPEAKER_03: Their head office location is in New York, New York.
1:16
SPEAKER_03: The job location is remote Canada.
1:19
SPEAKER_03: Their geographical operating area is global.
1:23
SPEAKER_03: And the position is a full-time position.
1:26
SPEAKER_03: Got it?
1:29
okay i chose this job posting um because it was a job posting
1:35
that i had never i'd
1:36
SPEAKER_03: never seen this kind of title culture coach before as like an employment
1:41
opportunity versus maybe like a consulting uh opportunity and
1:46
so uh or a contract
1:48
freelance anything like that so i just thought it was a really
1:51
interesting culture
1:51
coach to me being in human resources was interesting i wanted
1:55
to know a little bit
1:56
SPEAKER_03: more
1:57
SPEAKER_03: And so that's why I chose this.
1:59
SPEAKER_03: And I'm really excited to dig into it a little bit more with you.
2:03
SPEAKER_03: So let's do it.
2:03
SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go through section by section, take some pauses.
2:07
SPEAKER_03: We can identify some flags.
2:11
SPEAKER_03: About the company,
2:14
this company is a leading consultancy on a mission to build
2:17
transformational
2:18
SPEAKER_03: digital solutions for the world's most innovative organizations.
2:22
We hire software developers passionate about the latest cutting
2:26
edge technology and
2:27
SPEAKER_03: working with other senior programmers on a high performing global team.
2:32
SPEAKER_03: So that's about the company.
2:33
SPEAKER_03: I feel like you have a question.
2:35
SPEAKER_03: Do you have a question?
2:35
SPEAKER_03: Are you good?
2:37
No,
2:37
I'm just like,
2:38
I'm chewing it over because you mentioned the culture coach
2:42
thing.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: And that when you said it out loud,
2:45
SPEAKER_00: that kind of piqued my interest too,
2:47
SPEAKER_00: because it sounds like it should be an HR function,
2:52
but it does not sound like a job title that you would get in a
2:56
normal job.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: structured HR environment.
2:59
SPEAKER_00: So my brain's kind of spinning with like, what is this thing?
3:04
SPEAKER_00: It's a software shop.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: It's like an IT services development, AI first, something or other.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Is this culture coach like an agile coach, kind of like that model?
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Because agile is super popular in software development.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: And
3:20
coaching like scrum masters or coaches basically is this kind
3:23
of that for HR and
3:26
people and it has it kind of adapted and evolved from that I'm
3:29
just I'm super
3:29
curious so yeah like the look on my face is like what's going
3:32
on here I'm confused
3:34
well let's find out what's going on in my brain very very
3:37
astute and I think this
3:38
is why I chose this because I had the exact same questions and
3:41
I was like I
3:42
SPEAKER_03: couldn't quite figure out
3:43
SPEAKER_03: where they were going with this role.
3:45
SPEAKER_03: And I love that you picked up on that too.
3:47
SPEAKER_03: I think listeners would as well.
3:50
SPEAKER_03: Let's read a little bit more.
3:51
SPEAKER_03: So let's learn about culture coaches.
3:54
SPEAKER_03: Culture coaches help people develop,
3:56
SPEAKER_03: grow,
3:57
SPEAKER_03: and navigate their work so they can perform at their best.
4:00
We identify themes and patterns across the organization and
4:04
ensure leaders have the
4:05
SPEAKER_03: insight they need to create a healthy,
4:08
SPEAKER_03: high-performing environment.
4:10
SPEAKER_03: what we're looking for.
4:11
SPEAKER_03: I'm just going to go straight into that.
4:13
SPEAKER_03: This is a short job posting, but I think we both have a lot.
4:16
SPEAKER_03: We'll have a lot to say about it.
4:17
SPEAKER_03: So who who we're looking for?
4:20
SPEAKER_03: Pardon me.
4:22
Worked closely with technical teams,
4:24
a former software developer or teacher would be an asset.
4:28
SPEAKER_03: Tech Forward needs to understand core engineering concepts,
4:32
SPEAKER_03: how systems fit together,
4:34
SPEAKER_03: and what's possible with modern tools,
4:36
SPEAKER_03: so AI,
4:37
SPEAKER_03: automation,
4:37
SPEAKER_03: workflows,
4:38
SPEAKER_03: and can help others adopt them.
4:41
SPEAKER_03: And Natural Coach,
4:42
SPEAKER_03: you enjoy helping people grow,
4:44
SPEAKER_03: giving feedback,
4:45
SPEAKER_03: translating complexity into clarity,
4:47
SPEAKER_03: and pursuing personal development on your own time.
4:50
SPEAKER_03: You think like a consultant,
4:52
someone who notices gaps and puts forward solutions that hold
4:55
both the people and
4:56
SPEAKER_03: business values simultaneously.
4:59
SPEAKER_03: We do everything on Zoom.
5:01
Therefore,
5:01
you must complete the video portion to be considered for a
5:05
first interview.
5:06
SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to stop there.
5:08
SPEAKER_03: We did the about culture coaches and who we're looking for.
5:12
SPEAKER_03: And I'm curious to you so far,
5:15
SPEAKER_03: any green flags,
5:16
SPEAKER_03: what's working for you,
5:17
SPEAKER_03: any red flags,
5:19
SPEAKER_03: any beige flags that you can identify here?
5:23
yeah there's there's some interesting stuff that sticks out um
5:26
so they they
5:27
explained what a culture coach is which is good um that
5:31
suggests to me that they
5:33
that they understand that this is kind of like a novel concept
5:37
uh and they're
5:38
they're hearing for something that doesn't really exist in a
5:43
kind of kind of
5:44
SPEAKER_00: purposeful structured way in the job market so they recognize that
5:48
SPEAKER_00: And they explain what it is like they mean by culture coach.
5:51
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really good sign.
5:53
It hints to me that there's some organizational openness to
5:57
this being a little bit
5:59
SPEAKER_00: kind of blurry around the edges.
6:02
And if that kind of extends into the rest of the organization,
6:05
great sign.
6:06
Like I personally believe that orgs that are kind of built with
6:11
that whole
6:13
clog in the machine mentality and they're all interchangeable
6:16
and replaceable uh
6:18
tend to be not great places to work in you know the 21st
6:22
century uh so that was
6:24
maybe a half a green flag what's uh what color is green but not
6:29
quite green um teal
6:33
SPEAKER_03: maybe
6:38
One red flag did kind of pop up for me though in that brief
6:41
introduction.
6:42
The expectation that you're going to do personal development on
6:45
your own time.
6:47
SPEAKER_00: Now, or professional development I should say, sorry, on your own time.
6:51
SPEAKER_00: People who are engaged with their work,
6:54
SPEAKER_00: they're naturally going to want to learn stuff on their own,
6:57
SPEAKER_00: especially if they're intellectually curious.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: And that's a good quality, I think.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: Like that's a great thing to look for in a person.
7:04
But if it becomes this expectation where you kind of as an
7:12
organization get into
7:14
SPEAKER_00: saying,
7:14
SPEAKER_00: okay,
7:15
SPEAKER_00: you must have a professional development plan.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: You must have like a certain amount of coursework,
7:21
SPEAKER_00: like maybe you're doing SEU,
7:23
SPEAKER_00: like credit type stuff,
7:24
SPEAKER_00: CEU type stuff.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: You must have a certain number of those every year and we'll pay for it,
7:31
SPEAKER_00: but you got to do it on your own time,
7:32
SPEAKER_00: weekends,
7:33
SPEAKER_00: evenings,
7:33
SPEAKER_00: whatever,
7:34
SPEAKER_00: and it's mandated.
7:35
SPEAKER_00: That gets a little bit iffy for me.
7:37
SPEAKER_00: If you're going to mandate professional development that's structured,
7:41
SPEAKER_00: you should account time for it as well.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: Otherwise you're kind of putting your people at risk of burnout, right?
7:48
Like you're piling more onto them onto what is probably already
7:51
going to be a bit of a busy job.
7:53
Like if this is a global company with offers offices all over
7:56
the place and they're
7:57
SPEAKER_00: operating remote,
7:58
SPEAKER_00: you're going to be working kind of weird hours sometimes.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: So that was, that was a red flag.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it did stick out for me.
8:06
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
8:06
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:07
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
8:08
SPEAKER_03: I don't have that much to say at this point,
8:10
SPEAKER_03: if I'm reading this job posting for the first time,
8:14
SPEAKER_03: at this point,
8:15
SPEAKER_03: I'm still quite confused.
8:17
SPEAKER_03: Like I don't have the clarity that I was looking for with the job.
8:21
So I think that's my biggest red flag is that like halfway
8:24
through and I still
8:25
SPEAKER_03: don't actually know what this is.
8:29
My brain keeps telling me HR,
8:31
but like you said,
8:32
agile,
8:33
they're looking for people maybe who
8:35
SPEAKER_03: you know,
8:36
SPEAKER_03: someone who is a dev or a teacher,
8:39
SPEAKER_03: who also understands core engineering concepts,
8:41
SPEAKER_03: like,
8:42
SPEAKER_03: but then you're a natural coach.
8:45
And so I don't know,
8:46
like,
8:46
for me,
8:46
it just feels it feels a little bit odd.
8:48
Same like the personal development,
8:52
it says pursuing personal development on your own time.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: So it does say, Oh, okay.
8:57
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
8:58
SPEAKER_03: Which is, which is interesting, too.
9:00
SPEAKER_03: I think what they're trying to say is someone who's like, so into
9:05
they do that yeah they spend time learning more about it like I
9:10
don't know to me I
9:11
read it as like I'm really into HR so I will listen to HR
9:13
podcasts and read books
9:14
on HR and articles but that's not personal development so I
9:18
don't know if that's
9:19
like a typo I mean maybe it's personal development but
9:22
professional and personal
9:23
SPEAKER_03: are two very different things so
9:27
Maybe they want people that browse like the self-help aisle at
9:31
chapters like on the
9:32
SPEAKER_00: weekends or whatever and,
9:33
SPEAKER_00: you know,
9:33
SPEAKER_00: kind of work on themselves.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: If this truly is like a coaching type thing, but on their own time.
9:39
If this truly is a coaching type thing,
9:41
that would kind of line up for me.
9:43
And if you think about,
9:45
you mentioned the ambiguity that we kind of have with this.
9:49
SPEAKER_00: There's not a lot of detail so far and granted.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: more of the job post to come, even though you said it's short.
9:56
Maybe this ambiguity exists because they don't have a
10:00
structured kind of formula.
10:03
SPEAKER_00: Like there's no real formula for success with this.
10:07
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they could take a whole bunch of different combinations of people,
10:12
SPEAKER_00: like traits and skills and experience and whatever,
10:15
SPEAKER_00: and plug them in in a way that works.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: So maybe it's ambiguous because like the role is ambiguous.
10:21
Like it starts as a piece of a bowl of pudding and it just kind
10:25
of shapes itself
10:26
SPEAKER_00: over time into something that's more useful.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's one of those.
10:30
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, potentially.
10:31
SPEAKER_03: The other thing that stood out to me was that last bullet point.
10:36
SPEAKER_03: We do everything on Zoom.
10:37
Therefore,
10:38
you must complete the video portion to be considered for a
10:41
first interview.
10:44
SPEAKER_03: To me,
10:44
SPEAKER_03: I think that that means it's one of those like AI,
10:47
SPEAKER_03: like you're speaking to no one,
10:48
SPEAKER_03: you're just recording a video of yourself or,
10:50
SPEAKER_03: right?
10:51
SPEAKER_03: Like have you ever done those?
10:53
SPEAKER_03: And curious about your thoughts.
10:55
I've done one once where I had to submit a video as part of an
10:58
application process
11:00
SPEAKER_03: and like questions flashed on the screen and I had to answer them.
11:04
SPEAKER_03: And I was like by myself, it was so bizarre.
11:08
SPEAKER_03: I've only ever done one.
11:10
SPEAKER_03: And for me, it's almost like an immediate turnoff.
11:14
SPEAKER_03: Um, I can, I can understand why some companies do this.
11:19
Um,
11:19
I was just looking at another interesting,
11:20
uh,
11:21
job posting that I saw.
11:22
SPEAKER_03: And one of the things said exactly that,
11:24
SPEAKER_03: like do,
11:25
SPEAKER_03: do our whatever video first to submit your application.
11:28
SPEAKER_03: Um,
11:30
SPEAKER_03: I find it really impersonal.
11:33
SPEAKER_03: And if that's your entry point into an organization's culture,
11:38
SPEAKER_03: it gives me a bit of the ick.
11:41
SPEAKER_03: So curious as to like, why not just do a good old fashioned phone screen?
11:48
SPEAKER_03: That way you don't see what the person looks like.
11:51
You have less kind of like preconceived notion and notions
11:55
about them and biases creeping in.
11:58
SPEAKER_03: You just pick up the horn
12:00
and get to know the person ask a few questions um to me i
12:04
prefer prefer that as
12:05
just like this weird um recording yourself into the void type
12:10
thing and then they
12:11
also have that video too which is like what you're gonna do
12:14
with that video that's
12:16
weird to me that feels like vulnerable so that was that to me
12:20
is like a red flag um
12:22
SPEAKER_03: yeah
12:23
SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
12:24
SPEAKER_00: That's a good point.
12:25
The AI first hiring processes and the tools that have become
12:29
available now,
12:30
SPEAKER_00: the platforms that kind of do this stuff,
12:34
SPEAKER_00: it's very much designed for productivity.
12:38
operational efficiency and you you go into an organization you
12:43
sell these tools by
12:44
basically saying like hey no more phone screens hey you don't
12:48
have to actually hire
12:50
a recruiter anymore yeah you don't need to involve humans in
12:54
the early early part
12:56
of the interviewing arc like it's it's very much a productivity
13:00
and efficiency sort
13:01
of thing these tools but as you said it makes the cultural
13:05
entry point really weird
13:08
SPEAKER_00: I haven't done one of these yet,
13:11
but I've read enough from people who haven't talked to people
13:15
who have done these
13:15
SPEAKER_00: before.
13:16
And one of the things that sticks out in that commentary that
13:20
I've kind of had in
13:21
SPEAKER_00: conversations with people is that so many of the social cues are missing.
13:29
from like the the interview process because interviewing is
13:32
conversational right so
13:34
many of the social cues like body language facial expressions
13:37
tone of voice all of
13:38
that it's completely missing so it almost is an environment
13:43
that generates um
13:47
awkwardness and strangeness and weirdness and then how you
13:51
communicate into this
13:52
SPEAKER_00: black void
13:53
SPEAKER_00: is going to be awkward and weird and strange.
13:56
SPEAKER_00: So on the other side,
13:57
SPEAKER_00: when you have people who are reviewing this,
13:59
SPEAKER_00: like what's their impression of you?
14:01
SPEAKER_00: Their impression is going to probably be something like,
14:03
SPEAKER_00: oh,
14:04
SPEAKER_00: this person is really awkward and not great at talking to people.
14:06
So for people kind of like manager or leadership or like
14:11
whatever role where you
14:12
SPEAKER_00: have to be good with people,
14:13
SPEAKER_00: you have to have conversational skills,
14:15
SPEAKER_00: they're going to suck.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: So see you later.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's the system and the process that got them there,
14:21
SPEAKER_00: not the person's actual state of being,
14:24
SPEAKER_00: of who they are and how they behave.
14:28
SPEAKER_03: You make a really good point.
14:29
It is when you're just speaking on camera and you're by
14:32
yourself,
14:33
it is...
14:35
so performative like it's just performative you you just you
14:40
kind of put on a
14:41
little voice in a little show that's not really a true
14:43
reflection like you start to
14:44
warm up when you're having a dialogue with someone um so yeah I
14:50
I totally agree
14:51
it's also weird it's it's written it's worded in an odd way
14:55
that I don't quite
14:56
SPEAKER_03: understand like we do everything on zoom
14:59
got it therefore you must complete the video portion what video
15:02
portion to be
15:04
considered for a first interview of the interview like it's
15:08
just it's just weird uh
15:10
to me that just written oddly and i would love if they use that
15:15
opportunity to go
15:16
um step by step into what is that interview process it says
15:20
first interview how
15:20
SPEAKER_03: many are there who are they with um
15:24
yeah is this the is is that video portion gonna have questions
15:27
like just a bit more
15:29
information they have the space for it um and it's also weird
15:33
that they sec they
15:33
categorize that under the who we're looking for like that's
15:37
that's an odd place to
15:38
put that bullet point um and i've spoken before about just like
15:44
conjugation of
15:44
SPEAKER_03: verbs like who we're looking for and then it says worked closely with
15:49
SPEAKER_03: That doesn't mean me, so.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: And setting expectations goes a long way too.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: So if we think about this opportunity that has been missed,
16:00
SPEAKER_00: like you've kind of highlighted it,
16:02
SPEAKER_00: I was kind of dancing around it a little bit,
16:04
but there's an opportunity that's been missed here to really
16:08
outline the hiring
16:09
SPEAKER_00: process.
16:11
SPEAKER_00: And if you set expectations up front and you say,
16:13
SPEAKER_00: hey,
16:14
SPEAKER_00: we use the screening tool,
16:16
SPEAKER_00: you won't be talking to a person like,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: hey,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: 21st century,
16:18
SPEAKER_00: cool.
16:19
SPEAKER_00: We know it's kind of weird.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: This is how we suggest you prepare for it.
16:23
SPEAKER_00: Here are some tips on how to talk to the void.
16:27
SPEAKER_00: It does not seem like a bit of an unsuitable candidate.
16:31
There's an opportunity to guide people through stuff like this
16:36
and still gain those
16:37
SPEAKER_00: productivity and efficiency improvements that you want,
16:40
SPEAKER_00: which is why you would buy a system like this in the first place.
16:43
SPEAKER_00: So missed opportunity.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Missed opportunity.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: I would classify that, I would flag that as a beige flag.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: It's a missed opportunity.
16:51
All this stuff is so new,
16:53
maybe they legitimately just didn't think of it.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: Would I think of it in the same place?
16:58
SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.
16:59
SPEAKER_00: This is new.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: But would I think of it the second time after watching this show?
17:04
SPEAKER_00: Of course I would.
17:06
SPEAKER_03: Of course you would.
17:07
SPEAKER_03: There's also some mandatory disclosures,
17:11
like legislation driven about using AI technology in the
17:16
recruitment and interview
17:17
SPEAKER_03: process.
17:18
And so we'll see if that's covered in this job posting,
17:23
but spoiler alert,
17:24
it's not.
17:25
SPEAKER_03: And so so let's just go a little bit deeper into the posting.
17:32
SPEAKER_03: So now we're on coaching responsibilities.
17:34
SPEAKER_03: So this is where we get a little bit more insight.
17:36
SPEAKER_03: I had said it's still a little bit unclear to me.
17:38
SPEAKER_03: What is this role?
17:41
SPEAKER_03: So we're going to learn a little bit more.
17:43
Develop meaningful relationships with software developers
17:46
through regular check ins
17:48
SPEAKER_03: asynchronously on Slack and synchronously via Zoom.
17:53
SPEAKER_03: coach developers on managing commitments,
17:55
SPEAKER_03: identifying and shifting unproductive moods,
17:58
SPEAKER_03: and building habits that support productivity,
18:02
SPEAKER_03: deliver constructive feedback tactfully with an outcome of change,
18:07
SPEAKER_03: lead company-wide training sessions,
18:10
SPEAKER_03: identify and escalate appropriate concerns to leadership,
18:14
SPEAKER_03: lead and execute special projects independently and achieve outcomes,
18:20
SPEAKER_03: actively create remote community,
18:23
uses AI to advance workflows,
18:25
coaching,
18:26
and puts forth new ways of solving problems that work.
18:30
SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to stop there.
18:31
SPEAKER_03: That's it for the responsibilities.
18:34
SPEAKER_03: Just a note to listeners and watchers, I'm just reading verbatim.
18:39
SPEAKER_03: When there are those grammatical errors,
18:42
SPEAKER_03: And I'm overthinking it.
18:44
SPEAKER_03: Probably others are like, let it go, Jen.
18:47
SPEAKER_03: But I just want people to know I can read.
18:50
SPEAKER_03: I'm just reading what it says.
18:52
SPEAKER_03: So disclaimer, let's talk about these coaching responsibilities.
18:59
SPEAKER_03: What stood out to you?
19:02
SPEAKER_03: What are some things that you like?
19:03
SPEAKER_03: What are some things you hate?
19:04
SPEAKER_03: And what are some things you're okay with?
19:07
SPEAKER_00: And another note for the folks listening at home,
19:10
SPEAKER_00: we do put a copy of the job description as written on Substack.
19:16
So there'll be a link in the show notes to go check that out if
19:19
you want to.
19:20
SPEAKER_00: You can follow along.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, Jen is just reading it out as it's written.
19:25
SPEAKER_00: And when I host, same sort of thing.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: I read it out as it's written.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: And we take on the risk that we sound like fools.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's a couple of things that stand out for me in that section.
19:37
So having gotten kind of what they expect from their culture
19:43
coach out in the open,
19:45
SPEAKER_00: this very much now strikes me as a scrum master type role,
19:50
SPEAKER_00: but they've chosen to call it culture coach.
19:52
Because when you're working in an engineering environment that
19:58
uses agile software development,
20:01
having a having a scrum master or whatever the comparable is is
20:06
an important part
20:06
of that process and really that person's that person's goal is
20:11
to be or their
20:12
purpose is to be a leader without title authority so they're
20:18
they're a peer leader
20:19
really their job is to help everyone get the most out of you
20:23
know their talents and
20:24
SPEAKER_00: whatever
20:25
SPEAKER_00: And this now is very much striking me as that.
20:29
SPEAKER_00: So green flag.
20:30
They listed out pretty clearly the outcomes that they expect
20:34
from the coach.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: You know, they said you're going to coach and mentor.
20:38
SPEAKER_00: You're going to help developers with like time management,
20:41
SPEAKER_00: with effective communication,
20:42
SPEAKER_00: whatever else.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
20:44
SPEAKER_00: That's a green flag for me.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: It very, very succinctly puts down like you're here to do this.
20:51
How you get there,
20:52
it's going to be up to you,
20:53
but this is what we expect.
20:55
Some people will find that a little bit wishy-washy and not
21:01
clearly defined,
21:02
SPEAKER_00: but that is the nature of this type of job.
21:05
it is very much an art form not a science this type of job so
21:08
green flag for me for
21:09
that uh one thing that kind of made me laugh a little bit was
21:13
uh the special
21:14
projects thing and i i would you actually mind reading that
21:18
part out again where
21:18
they say you'll lead special projects because i forget how it
21:21
was worded lead and
21:23
SPEAKER_03: executes special projects independently and achieve outcomes
21:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
21:29
SPEAKER_03: That's the part to have the disclaimer about knowing how to read.
21:35
SPEAKER_03: I know how to read.
21:38
SPEAKER_00: So you're,
21:39
you're going to lead special projects and the outcome of those
21:42
special projects
21:42
SPEAKER_00: will be outcomes.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
21:46
SPEAKER_03: And you will achieve those outcomes.
21:48
SPEAKER_00: Yes, because they are outcomes.
21:51
SPEAKER_03: And you're leading and executing them.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:55
SPEAKER_00: As you do, as you do when there are outcomes to be had.
22:00
I mean,
22:01
no mention of what those outcomes are and,
22:03
you know,
22:03
fair that you don't know them.
22:05
Like part of a good coach's job in an environment like this is
22:11
to identify
22:12
SPEAKER_00: opportunities for improvement.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: And that can be improvement from a financial standpoint,
22:18
SPEAKER_00: from an operations standpoint,
22:20
SPEAKER_00: from a cultural standpoint.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Really, the goal is to build something better.
22:26
uh so the the outcome of the projects with the outcomes is
22:29
going to be ambiguous um
22:31
but you could you could have found a better way to word it i
22:37
mean i feel like a lot
22:38
of it oh i'm totally taking over your it's still your turn um
22:44
but a lot of these
22:45
are like half sentences like just complete just complete the
22:48
sentence like actively
22:49
SPEAKER_03: create remote community by
22:53
SPEAKER_03: Like, by doing what, right?
22:56
SPEAKER_03: Like, what does that look like?
22:58
SPEAKER_03: And how will you know?
22:59
SPEAKER_03: Like, it's bizarre to me.
23:02
SPEAKER_03: So anyway, go on.
23:05
yeah no that's that's that's about all that i had to say uh
23:09
about this particular
23:11
section but it does it does that was short that section was
23:15
really short and it
23:16
does it does strike me as half-baked um so the the natural kind
23:22
of thought that
23:22
SPEAKER_00: comes to mind is like
23:24
does does their hiring platform also write the job descriptions
23:27
for them and did
23:27
they not like put enough into the instruction for their ai to
23:32
spit out like like a
23:35
rational sounding job description i don't know or is this just
23:38
somebody who is like
23:40
we want to coach we think it's a good idea because we read a
23:43
book about it being a
23:44
good idea but we have no idea how to do this let's write some
23:47
words one of those
23:49
SPEAKER_00: and in fairness if that's what happened
23:53
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
23:53
I will still give you bonus points for incorporating a concept
24:00
as unusual and not
24:02
SPEAKER_00: as mainstream as this into your business.
24:05
SPEAKER_00: Like you're trying to innovate, so you get bonus points.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: But damn.
24:12
SPEAKER_03: Damn, I so agree with you.
24:14
SPEAKER_03: What I like, the green flags for me is that it's exactly what you said.
24:18
SPEAKER_03: They're trying to do something different here.
24:20
SPEAKER_03: So kudos to them for doing that.
24:22
SPEAKER_03: Part of me loves this idea.
24:25
I wrote a post on Substack a while back about the concept of
24:30
like dual leadership
24:31
SPEAKER_03: roles.
24:31
SPEAKER_03: So on teams having like
24:33
um somebody who's manager in terms of those achieving outcomes
24:38
if you will but like
24:39
just making sure that they're delivering and then having
24:43
someone who's like in a
24:44
people development role and they kind of collaborate and work
24:47
together to support
24:49
the team so i feel like this is this is similar to that but it
24:52
also brings up a lot
24:52
of questions for me and one of them is when it says like
24:55
deliver constructive
24:56
SPEAKER_03: feedback tapfully with an outcome of change
24:59
SPEAKER_03: But like feedback on what?
25:01
SPEAKER_03: Do they have a manager?
25:02
Like,
25:02
do they have a people manager and this is a coach to support
25:07
the team?
25:07
SPEAKER_03: Because for me,
25:10
it's interesting that you would be delivering feedback like in
25:14
a coaching capacity
25:17
SPEAKER_03: You're guiding and you're mentoring.
25:19
I would assume that the people manager is the one delivering
25:21
the feedback.
25:22
So are you not guiding the people manager on how to deliver
25:25
that feedback if they need it?
25:27
SPEAKER_03: But this is one of very few bullet points in their responsibilities.
25:32
SPEAKER_03: So obviously then it's a big role.
25:36
SPEAKER_03: Identify and escalate appropriate concerns to leadership.
25:39
who but who so they don't have a manager like it's because that
25:43
would be the first
25:44
point right is to to escalate that or i would think the manager
25:48
would be escalating
25:48
that to the coach like it's so it's weird dynamics i'm very
25:52
curious about what this
25:54
structure uh looks like again love the idea of having like an
25:57
embedded coach onto a
25:58
team but i need to know a little bit more to understand who's
26:03
accountable for what
26:04
SPEAKER_03: where
26:06
SPEAKER_03: Where are you escalating things?
26:08
SPEAKER_03: Where does the risk live for people?
26:12
SPEAKER_03: So I just thought that that was really interesting.
26:14
SPEAKER_03: And then at the same time, actively create remote community.
26:17
SPEAKER_03: That's a weird fragment of a sentence.
26:21
SPEAKER_03: Like, what does that mean?
26:23
SPEAKER_03: Does that mean that they are helping to build a strong remote culture,
26:29
SPEAKER_03: keeping people engaged and connected,
26:31
SPEAKER_03: like just a little bit more information there?
26:35
and then uses AI to advance workflows coaching and puts forth
26:38
new ways of solving
26:39
SPEAKER_03: problems that work.
26:42
SPEAKER_03: That's interesting to me too.
26:44
SPEAKER_03: What AI tools,
26:46
SPEAKER_03: what are kind of the,
26:47
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
26:48
SPEAKER_03: they're not gonna put like an AI policy in the job posting,
26:50
SPEAKER_03: but I'm really curious as to what that like ethical and moral line is,
26:54
SPEAKER_03: because you can hire someone to be a coach.
26:56
And if they're just expected to spit out like frameworks and
27:01
sessions using AI,
27:04
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
27:05
SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that's, that doesn't really make sense to me.
27:08
SPEAKER_03: So, so I guess for me, I'm sitting here looking at the job posting.
27:12
SPEAKER_03: They've told us everything about the job.
27:14
The next parts are going to be a little bit about like benefits
27:17
and stuff.
27:18
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
27:18
SPEAKER_00: before we,
27:19
SPEAKER_00: before we move on to that,
27:21
SPEAKER_00: um,
27:22
I want to circle back to one to one comment you made about the
27:24
structure of team
27:25
SPEAKER_00: and the structure of the team and authority that this is,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: this is an example of a job posting where it would have been really,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: really
27:35
useful for people who are potentially applying to this job to
27:41
detail the immediate
27:43
SPEAKER_00: organizational structure,
27:44
SPEAKER_00: like the reporting structure.
27:46
SPEAKER_00: Because you're right,
27:48
SPEAKER_00: it sounds in that job,
27:50
SPEAKER_00: in that particular part where they're talking about the responsibilities,
27:53
SPEAKER_00: like giving feedback and whatever,
27:55
SPEAKER_00: through the traditional management structure that says,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: okay,
27:59
SPEAKER_00: so this person is doing performance reviews,
28:02
SPEAKER_00: but
28:03
in an agile software development environment it's actually
28:06
that's not the case so
28:09
you have in those traditional or those agile software
28:12
development environments when
28:13
you implement a system like scrum you've got product owners so
28:18
they're responsible
28:19
for kind of project management the development of different
28:22
products or features or
28:23
SPEAKER_00: what have you uh and they're they're
28:27
SPEAKER_00: Kind of like the hierarchical managers.
28:30
You will have a team lead who typically your feedback and your
28:36
performance related
28:36
stuff goes through the team lead or the business unit owner or
28:39
something like that,
28:41
SPEAKER_00: which is also a separate person.
28:43
SPEAKER_00: The coach is completely divorced from that.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: And that's intentional.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: It's by design.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: So the coach is meant to deliver day-to-day feedback,
28:52
SPEAKER_00: usually through a team review process,
28:56
SPEAKER_00: like a sprint review or something,
28:58
where you kind of get into the nitty-gritty about how the past
29:03
two weeks went.
29:05
and you know the coach the scrum master kind of leads that
29:08
process but none of that
29:09
is clear from this job posting so are these folks kind of
29:14
implementing a bit of a
29:15
bastardization of scrum like they're trying to make it their
29:19
own and fit their own
29:20
business if they are cool um or are they using kind of this
29:26
agile process and
29:27
you're just not explaining well you don't know i don't know
29:30
it's ambiguous
29:31
SPEAKER_03: It is ambiguous.
29:32
SPEAKER_03: So this is a good point.
29:33
SPEAKER_03: And like I was saying,
29:34
SPEAKER_03: if you take all of that,
29:35
that's just about the role itself before we get into like
29:38
benefits or anything
29:39
SPEAKER_03: else.
29:40
SPEAKER_03: To me, that was not enough.
29:41
SPEAKER_03: And so I did some research.
29:43
SPEAKER_03: I was like, is this HR?
29:44
SPEAKER_03: Is it like you were talking about?
29:45
SPEAKER_03: Are we talking Scrum Master?
29:48
And what I found is that each of these culture coaches
29:52
previously held human
29:54
SPEAKER_03: resources roles,
29:55
SPEAKER_03: every single one of them.
29:57
SPEAKER_03: And they all report into like a director of human resources.
30:02
So this to me is a re-imagination of a human resources business
30:07
partner role.
30:09
That's the only thing that makes sense to me based on looking
30:13
at the LinkedIn
30:16
SPEAKER_03: profiles of all of the people in their company who hold this role.
30:21
SPEAKER_03: while they ask for like a technical expertise or background,
30:25
SPEAKER_03: everyone I found has done HR,
30:28
SPEAKER_03: people ops,
30:29
SPEAKER_03: people in culture,
30:30
SPEAKER_03: whatever it is in some shape or form prior to having this role.
30:36
SPEAKER_03: So,
30:37
SPEAKER_03: Now that we know that and like I looked up the structure,
30:40
SPEAKER_03: I mapped out an org chart about what I used AI to help me,
30:47
SPEAKER_03: but I mapped out based on those roles,
30:49
I mapped out what an org chart would look like for this
30:51
organization for this
30:52
SPEAKER_03: department.
30:53
SPEAKER_03: And essentially, it's an HR department.
30:57
SPEAKER_03: So based on that information,
31:00
what did like does that change your mind a little bit about how
31:03
this is written and
31:04
what they're trying to do like because to me it's not i get
31:07
what they're trying to
31:08
do but it's not translating they need to they need to do a
31:12
little bit more work on
31:13
SPEAKER_03: this to to make it make sense but curious to hear your thoughts
31:18
yeah with with knowing that it's it's almost like they're
31:22
trying to create a new
31:25
type of boot uh by by cutting a heel and a running shoe in half
31:33
and like gluing
31:34
SPEAKER_02: them together wait what's happening
31:39
SPEAKER_00: Your confusion is palpable,
31:40
SPEAKER_00: and that's the confusion I feel internally,
31:43
SPEAKER_00: knowing what you just told me.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: Again, I still give them bonus points.
31:50
SPEAKER_00: I'll give them credit for trying to innovate and add something unique and
31:56
SPEAKER_00: interesting to their organization that...
32:01
But it seems to me like their vision for this is to modernize
32:08
HR a little bit,
32:10
SPEAKER_00: make it about people and culture,
32:11
SPEAKER_00: embed it directly into teams and completely disintegrate silos.
32:19
like that that feels like the vision that they have for this
32:21
and if that's the case
32:22
awesome good for them because HR is a practice in growing
32:26
companies tends to tends
32:28
to get siloed and like there are a ton of structural issues
32:31
with it despite
32:32
people's best efforts so if they're trying to like address that
32:35
awesome but it's
32:39
SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
32:41
SPEAKER_00: I don't think necessarily that,
32:43
SPEAKER_00: and maybe this isn't policy,
32:45
but if each of the people who hold this role now are former HR
32:50
practitioners and
32:51
kind of quietly that's what they're hiring because that's what
32:54
they believe will
32:55
SPEAKER_00: fill the role,
32:56
SPEAKER_00: they're doing themselves a disservice,
32:58
SPEAKER_00: I think.
33:00
SPEAKER_03: I agree.
33:00
SPEAKER_03: I agree.
33:02
SPEAKER_03: And I wonder then when the organization does have
33:08
SPEAKER_03: HR, like human resources issues.
33:12
Are these coaches addressing those issues or is that what they
33:15
mean when they say
33:16
SPEAKER_03: identify and escalate appropriate concerns to leadership?
33:21
SPEAKER_03: That's weird to me.
33:22
SPEAKER_03: And I feel like there's a risk of lines blurring just a little bit here.
33:28
SPEAKER_03: Again, I like what they're trying to do.
33:30
I think they're trying to be innovative and change it and maybe
33:33
just like do some reparation of
33:38
you know,
33:38
poor,
33:39
poor trust issues with human resources and maybe specifically
33:43
with like devs.
33:43
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, rehab jobs.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: Right.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
33:47
SPEAKER_03: So,
33:48
SPEAKER_03: so I get it,
33:49
but I thought that was an interesting like plot twist that
33:53
everyone is human
33:55
SPEAKER_03: resources.
33:55
SPEAKER_03: They report into human resources.
33:57
This is not,
33:59
it just doesn't,
34:00
it's not clear in the job posting whatsoever.
34:03
SPEAKER_03: And there are, there are a lot of them, like it's a large team.
34:07
SPEAKER_03: And so this is what was interesting to me too,
34:09
SPEAKER_03: is that then why is the job posting so like vague and bland?
34:13
SPEAKER_03: And if they have,
34:15
so many of these people then why aren't they just writing a
34:17
really like sick job
34:19
posting like i love the idea of this i think it needs to be
34:22
written a lot better uh
34:25
and just a lot more like it needs to be a robust job posting um
34:29
so it's it's it's
34:31
SPEAKER_03: weird it's weird right yeah okay
34:36
SPEAKER_00: It's weird, but is it weird because it's not mainstream?
34:42
SPEAKER_00: Or is it weird because it's poorly conceived?
34:45
SPEAKER_00: Or a bit of both?
34:46
SPEAKER_00: It's probably a bit of both.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: I think that's a good, that's the question.
34:50
SPEAKER_03: I think it's a little bit of both.
34:51
Again,
34:51
like I've said so many times in this one episode,
34:54
I love this idea.
34:55
SPEAKER_03: I'm all for completely changing like the HR,
35:00
SPEAKER_03: the field,
35:01
SPEAKER_03: everything,
35:02
SPEAKER_03: and trying different things,
35:03
SPEAKER_03: but this ain't it.
35:05
SPEAKER_03: I don't think this is the way to do it.
35:07
SPEAKER_03: So let me talk a little bit about,
35:10
I said it's a short posting and here we are just blabbing on
35:14
and on about it.
35:17
SPEAKER_03: Okay.
35:18
SPEAKER_03: Our benefits.
35:20
SPEAKER_03: We know that people do their best work when they're taken care of.
35:23
SPEAKER_03: So we make sure to offer great benefits.
35:26
SPEAKER_03: Fully remote role,
35:27
SPEAKER_03: PTO,
35:29
SPEAKER_03: flexible family leave,
35:30
SPEAKER_03: annual financial allowance for your development,
35:35
SPEAKER_03: strong company community,
35:37
SPEAKER_03: company name,
35:38
SPEAKER_03: you.
35:39
SPEAKER_03: So basically it's the name of the company,
35:41
SPEAKER_03: you as in university,
35:42
SPEAKER_03: meaning they have training programs.
35:46
SPEAKER_03: which is interesting because from,
35:48
it sounds like these career coaches are the ones doing the
35:51
training program.
35:52
SPEAKER_03: So does that also apply to them too?
35:56
SPEAKER_03: So those are the benefits.
35:57
And I'm just going to quickly go into getting hired and then
36:01
there's more after
36:01
SPEAKER_03: that,
36:02
SPEAKER_03: but we can pause.
36:04
SPEAKER_00: That's it for benefits.
36:05
SPEAKER_00: That's all they listed.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: There's nothing really concrete in there.
36:11
SPEAKER_03: Fully remote role.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: Carry on, sorry.
36:14
SPEAKER_03: Well, I'm just repeating it.
36:15
SPEAKER_03: So fully remote role, we know that.
36:17
SPEAKER_03: PTO, I should hope so because it's illegal otherwise.
36:22
SPEAKER_03: Flexible family leave, annual financial allowance for your development.
36:27
SPEAKER_03: I'm saying that because it's an uppercase for your development.
36:31
Strong company community and then company name university
36:35
training programs.
36:37
SPEAKER_03: My eye is twitching, Paul.
36:40
SPEAKER_03: It really is.
36:41
SPEAKER_03: I hope it's not showing up.
36:45
SPEAKER_03: So those are the benefits.
36:46
SPEAKER_03: Maybe I will stop there because we both have feelings about it.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that was really sparse.
36:58
When you said PTO,
36:59
the first thing I did was I wrote down PTO question mark.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, cause there, there's nothing, there's, there's nothing there.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: Like, is it, is it one of those unlimited PTO policies?
37:10
SPEAKER_00: Is it, you know, PTO, uh, negotiated commensurate on experience?
37:15
SPEAKER_00: Is it like,
37:16
SPEAKER_00: is it,
37:16
is it a fixed model where you start with two or three weeks and
37:21
you advance to like
37:22
SPEAKER_00: five after so many years of service?
37:24
SPEAKER_00: Like doesn't, doesn't tell you anything about that.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: Um,
37:30
SPEAKER_00: that strikes me as strange.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: Flexible leave for family.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: Nice.
37:36
SPEAKER_00: Really nice, but ambiguous.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
37:40
Does that mean that you can do flex time and,
37:44
you know,
37:44
duck out for your kid's soccer game or
37:47
SPEAKER_00: you know,
37:47
SPEAKER_00: to take somebody to the doctor and make up the time later,
37:50
or does it mean you can actually like take the time off to deal
37:52
with family stuff?
37:53
SPEAKER_00: And is it only family stuff?
37:55
SPEAKER_00: What about stuff with friends?
37:56
SPEAKER_00: What about personal stuff?
37:58
SPEAKER_00: What about, I need a mental health day.
37:59
SPEAKER_00: Like what, what is that policy?
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not clear at all in the way that they wrote it.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Um, the, the, the university thing.
38:14
SPEAKER_00: Cool.
38:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
38:16
SPEAKER_00: that's also a little bit big and ambiguous.
38:19
Though I am quite curious now about like from a structural
38:25
standpoint,
38:25
how is that administered?
38:27
Like if your coaches are coaching teams and also building and
38:32
maintaining content
38:33
SPEAKER_00: and courses and whatever for this like,
38:35
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like in the job?
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Like, are you kind of running that too?
38:40
SPEAKER_00: Are there resources in place to kind of help with that?
38:44
SPEAKER_00: Like it just, it sounds, it sounds a little fly by night.
38:49
SPEAKER_00: It sounds weird.
38:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Doesn't talk about healthcare.
38:53
Doesn't talk about healthcare benefits,
38:55
vision,
38:55
dental,
38:56
any of that stuff like American company.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: And this is a remote role for Canada.
39:03
So,
39:04
like,
39:05
maybe they're assuming that universal health care just kind of
39:09
does it all.
39:11
Does more than what's available in the U.S.,
39:13
but no,
39:14
it doesn't do it all.
39:16
SPEAKER_00: Most provinces, like, don't cover vision or dental.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Or there's a bunch of other stuff that people need that's not covered.
39:24
So,
39:24
like,
39:24
there's nothing about health benefits,
39:28
which is a big,
39:29
big red flag for me.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: Big red flag.
39:33
SPEAKER_03: I agree.
39:33
I feel like the whole posting,
39:35
including the benefits,
39:36
is like,
39:36
oh,
39:37
almost.
39:39
SPEAKER_03: Tell me a little bit more.
39:40
SPEAKER_03: You know, there's there's a lot missing here.
39:42
SPEAKER_03: I agree.
39:43
SPEAKER_03: Flexible family leave.
39:44
SPEAKER_03: Well, what if you don't have a family?
39:46
SPEAKER_03: What does what does that mean?
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Does the foster cat that we have at home count as family?
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Like, can I take three hours off to take her to the vet?
39:55
I have seen one of the coolest job postings I saw benefits was
40:00
that you if you get
40:02
SPEAKER_03: a new pet,
40:02
SPEAKER_03: you also have paid time off like like maternity,
40:07
SPEAKER_03: like parental leave thing.
40:08
You get a period of paid time off to adjust and get them like
40:12
house trained.
40:13
SPEAKER_03: I thought it was super cool.
40:14
SPEAKER_03: Like I like.
40:17
SPEAKER_03: yeah, family looks and feels different for everyone.
40:21
SPEAKER_03: And,
40:21
SPEAKER_03: you know,
40:23
SPEAKER_03: someone who does have a child,
40:25
SPEAKER_03: I know it takes a lot of time,
40:26
but I don't think I'm special or deserve special treatment
40:28
because of that.
40:30
SPEAKER_03: Like,
40:30
I don't think that people should have to make up for me when I
40:34
have to run and go
40:35
SPEAKER_03: deal with a sick kid or anything like that.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:39
The more the more that you create policies that are narrowly
40:43
targeted to benefit
40:45
um certain groups of people even even if it's with the best of
40:49
intentions and you
40:50
know to try and be good and supportive the more that you do it
40:53
the more that you
40:54
risk creating um otherings with people who don't fall into that
40:59
group and like the
41:00
SPEAKER_00: the parents non-parents thing it's a good example
41:03
like I don't have kids so that's if it was like strictly for a
41:07
family and it was
41:08
meant to be used for kids I wouldn't be making use of that and
41:12
you know what I
41:13
would I feel a little bit bothered by it no because like from a
41:17
societal standpoint
41:18
like supporting people who have kids and families is a good
41:21
thing like there's that
41:21
whole it takes a village but it does create a separate class of
41:26
employee yeah that
41:28
SPEAKER_00: isn't cool
41:30
I agree I think the like long story short we've said this
41:35
before list all of your
41:36
benefits and perks like this can't be it do you use like
41:41
amazing technology do you
41:43
like what what else is there list everything start by listing
41:48
every single thing
41:48
that makes your company really cool to work for and the
41:51
benefits and then you can
41:52
SPEAKER_03: start like trimming back a little bit but this this is way too short um
41:57
SPEAKER_03: Getting hired,
41:58
SPEAKER_03: our team is made up of people who are not only from different countries,
42:01
SPEAKER_03: but also from diverse backgrounds and disciplines.
42:04
SPEAKER_03: Our focus on employing respectful,
42:06
introspective and collaborative talent is what powers our
42:09
company and our success.
42:12
SPEAKER_03: That's under getting hired.
42:14
SPEAKER_03: That's weird, right?
42:17
SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you mean?
42:19
SPEAKER_00: It didn't actually explain how to get hired.
42:24
no it says getting hired and then it just talks about like
42:27
hiring diverse people so
42:31
SPEAKER_03: that's that's weird too
42:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're not being gaslit by the post.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: I also think that that is incredibly strange.
42:40
SPEAKER_03: I want to like it so badly.
42:42
SPEAKER_03: I really want to like it.
42:44
SPEAKER_03: But then it's not about getting hired.
42:46
SPEAKER_03: This is like maybe a DEI statement, inclusion statement.
42:51
And then we go into,
42:51
I mean,
42:52
I'm just going to,
42:53
we both agree that's weird.
42:54
SPEAKER_03: Location.
42:55
SPEAKER_03: This is a fully remote position.
42:57
However,
42:58
candidates must be based in regions that align with the
43:00
Pacific,
43:01
Central,
43:02
or Eastern US time zones to ensure effective collaboration with
43:06
client and team schedules.
43:09
SPEAKER_03: Fair enough.
43:11
SPEAKER_03: The application deadline,
43:12
it just says that it's an evergreen position with no
43:15
predetermined start date.
43:17
SPEAKER_03: Applications will be accepted, though, until end of this month.
43:21
SPEAKER_03: As we continue to build our talent pipeline,
43:22
the position may be reposted to allow us to connect with
43:26
additional qualified
43:27
SPEAKER_03: professionals.
43:27
SPEAKER_03: And I will say I have seen this role posted several times.
43:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thoughts on maybe evergreen location?
43:38
well that's the evergreen thing at least they're being honest
43:41
about it i will give
43:42
them that um that to me says that this is a fishing expedition
43:47
uh and they they may
43:49
or may not have a vacancy on this team right now that they're
43:55
hiring for that very
43:57
SPEAKER_00: much feels to me like they're trying to build a database of people who
44:03
are interested in perhaps a skills and experience fit,
44:08
and they'll tap that in the future.
44:11
SPEAKER_00: I will give them credit for being honest about it,
44:15
but I don't like it because you're basically saying to the
44:19
person reading the job
44:20
SPEAKER_00: post,
44:20
SPEAKER_00: there may or may not be a job here,
44:22
SPEAKER_00: but still go through the trouble of applying.
44:26
don't think that i don't i don't either i laughed because you
44:30
said tap that and i
44:31
thought it was funny um i don't i don't like it either then i
44:36
think there needs to
44:36
be disclosure at the top just saying because i've seen those
44:39
positions like those
44:40
things where they're like called to interest or whatever like
44:44
if it's like an open
44:45
job posting not specific to a role more like if you're
44:49
interested in our company i
44:51
SPEAKER_03: i agree i think that that's a little bit
44:54
SPEAKER_03: That's odd.
44:54
SPEAKER_03: But then again,
44:55
SPEAKER_03: it might work in someone's favor,
44:56
SPEAKER_03: you know,
44:56
SPEAKER_03: somebody who isn't in a rush or needs to give a long notice period.
45:00
We were just talking about that before we started recording
45:04
about having to give
45:05
SPEAKER_03: long notice periods and things like that.
45:06
SPEAKER_03: So, yeah, it's interesting.
45:10
I the the format this is going to be weird I'm we're going to
45:13
go into salary
45:16
guesses right now but then there's more in the job posting I'm
45:21
just following the
45:21
way that it's laid out so I'd love to know what you think a
45:24
salary range for this
45:25
job posting would be reminder fully remote in Canada what are
45:31
your thoughts
45:33
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
45:34
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:34
SPEAKER_00: my comments about there not being health benefits and whatnot before,
45:39
SPEAKER_00: which I didn't really like that.
45:42
SPEAKER_00: But if the price point is high enough, it doesn't matter.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: You can buy your own insurance plan.
45:49
SPEAKER_00: Like there's tons of plans that you can tap into from there.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: It's freaking tap into again.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: Like you got in my head.
45:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:59
There's tons of health and benefits plans that you can
46:03
participate in outside of
46:06
SPEAKER_00: being a part of an employer-sponsored program.
46:09
SPEAKER_00: There's a bunch of them.
46:10
SPEAKER_00: They're all over the place.
46:11
SPEAKER_00: So,
46:11
SPEAKER_00: like,
46:11
if you're being paid well enough and you want that kind of
46:15
traditional coverage and
46:16
SPEAKER_00: you want to spread the risk over,
46:18
SPEAKER_00: like,
46:18
SPEAKER_00: an insured pool of people who are kind of in the same boat,
46:21
SPEAKER_00: cool,
46:21
SPEAKER_00: cost you a thousand bucks a month,
46:23
SPEAKER_00: but,
46:23
SPEAKER_00: you know,
46:24
SPEAKER_00: If your salary sign of some matter, what do I think this job is worth?
46:28
SPEAKER_00: It's a US based companies.
46:32
SPEAKER_00: They're probably baselining salary in USD.
46:35
SPEAKER_00: I would assume that them being in headquartered in New York City,
46:38
SPEAKER_00: they've got kind of a sense of cost of living in different areas.
46:43
SPEAKER_00: Um,
46:47
As usual,
46:47
I think that what I think that there's what they offer is one
46:51
thing.
46:52
SPEAKER_00: And what I think it's worth is another thing.
46:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
46:55
I think that they're probably offering about the equivalent of
47:00
85,000 Canadian a year.
47:03
SPEAKER_00: And I feel like it should be a little north of 100,000 Canadian a year.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:13
um you nailed it the range is 75 to 100 canadian i think that's
47:21
a fair range um i
47:23
didn't guess because i i saw it but when i was reading through
47:27
the first time um i
47:28
would guess like 85 ish uh there's just not a lot of
47:33
information that's why and
47:34
then as a career coach it's hard to benchmark that in my mind i
47:37
can't think like
47:39
SPEAKER_03: what's comparable to that so
47:41
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
47:41
SPEAKER_03: you were right,
47:42
75 to 100 annually with final compensation determined by your
47:46
qualifications,
47:47
SPEAKER_03: expertise,
47:48
SPEAKER_03: experience,
47:49
SPEAKER_03: and the role's scope,
47:51
SPEAKER_03: which is also interesting.
47:54
SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah.
47:55
SPEAKER_00: Are they,
47:56
SPEAKER_00: are they,
47:57
are they building like your scope of responsibilities and
48:00
practice around,
48:02
I guess this would kind of make sense if they're treating this
48:04
like an evergreen,
48:05
SPEAKER_00: always hiring thing.
48:06
Like maybe there's some element of,
48:09
uh,
48:10
tailoring the,
48:11
the position and offer to like,
48:13
to you.
48:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, if that's the case, cool.
48:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, should have said that though.
48:20
SPEAKER_03: Well, and I like that they put a salary range like I can't complain.
48:25
SPEAKER_03: It's it's just it makes me brings me joy.
48:30
SPEAKER_03: But I have a twist for you.
48:31
SPEAKER_03: I feel like this one has had a lot of twists.
48:35
SPEAKER_03: You would think that that would be it.
48:37
SPEAKER_03: But there's also benefits.
48:41
SPEAKER_03: Wait a minute, Jen, you just said the benefits.
48:43
SPEAKER_03: I know, but for some reason they have benefits twice.
48:47
SPEAKER_03: And in the second part, they have more details.
48:53
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
48:53
SPEAKER_03: So we went through salary.
48:54
SPEAKER_03: So now let's go through benefits.
48:56
The first section was our benefits and it listed a whole bunch
48:59
of like bland bag type benefits.
49:03
SPEAKER_03: Benefits redux, I guess, is in addition to competitive pay.
49:09
We offer a variety of benefits to support your professional and
49:13
personal growth,
49:13
SPEAKER_03: including flexible working hours in a remote environment,
49:17
SPEAKER_03: health insurance,
49:19
SPEAKER_03: medical and dental for T4 employees.
49:23
SPEAKER_03: We'll get to that.
49:25
SPEAKER_03: A professional development fund to enhance your skills and knowledge.
49:29
SPEAKER_03: 15 days of paid time off annually.
49:32
SPEAKER_03: Access soft skill development courses to further your career.
49:38
what why okay so so the the second time around they actually
49:44
properly listed out
49:45
the benefits that uh that are a part of the total compensation
49:48
package good for
49:49
them um weird way to go about it but yeah i think that they i
49:56
think that they
49:56
should have like hired somebody to uh to like read this thing
50:00
before posting it
50:02
SPEAKER_03: Maybe we should offer our services.
50:05
SPEAKER_03: Proofread.
50:07
SPEAKER_00: I kind of,
50:08
a part of me really wants to like apply for this job and go
50:11
through the motions
50:12
SPEAKER_00: just to see what it's like.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: And then like report back and we'll do a follow-up episode or something.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: Part of me really wants to do that.
50:20
SPEAKER_03: You know what?
50:20
SPEAKER_03: If there are any listeners who are like,
50:22
SPEAKER_03: I know this job,
50:23
SPEAKER_03: I applied and went through,
50:25
SPEAKER_03: please,
50:26
SPEAKER_03: if any of these jobs ring a bell to you,
50:28
SPEAKER_03: let us know.
50:29
SPEAKER_03: Because I'm curious too.
50:31
SPEAKER_03: Because if there's not,
50:32
proofreading please proofread your job postings but if you're
50:35
not like how do you
50:36
not catch that you've done this twice like it's it's so weird
50:41
to me um but yeah any
50:43
SPEAKER_03: any thoughts on now that we have the information what those benefits
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:48
So knowing knowing that there's knowing that there's actual
50:52
like health insurance,
50:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
50:54
SPEAKER_00: vision,
50:54
SPEAKER_00: dental,
50:54
SPEAKER_00: all that stuff,
50:55
SPEAKER_00: they said for T4 employees,
50:56
SPEAKER_00: which means any employee in Canada,
50:59
SPEAKER_00: that was a little strange to call that out.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: Like, do they hire contractors, independent contractors as well as
51:09
Directly employed people,
51:10
I don't know,
51:11
because you get a T4 when you're an employee.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: So like, I don't know, weird.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: But it's good to know that they actually have those benefits in place.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Three weeks vacation, sure, it's fine for a starting point.
51:23
SPEAKER_00: After five years, you'd want more.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: But three weeks is perfectly sufficient for a starting point.
51:29
SPEAKER_00: Now, what they didn't do was in the first benefits section,
51:34
SPEAKER_00: They talked about like the family leave thing.
51:37
SPEAKER_00: They didn't mention that in the second one.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: I don't think they said they said flexible time,
51:42
SPEAKER_00: something or other,
51:43
SPEAKER_00: but it wasn't quite the same.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: So which one's true?
51:48
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:48
SPEAKER_03: Which one is it?
51:49
SPEAKER_03: More more details, please.
51:51
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
51:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: Benefits still strike me as a little light, though.
51:55
SPEAKER_00: Like there's not a ton there.
51:58
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there's there's it's not.
51:59
SPEAKER_03: And the 15 days of paid time off annually.
52:02
SPEAKER_03: Cool.
52:03
But then maybe say to start so that people know that there's an
52:06
opportunity for that to grow.
52:07
SPEAKER_03: So like, again, they're almost there with a lot of it.
52:12
Pro professional development fund access to soft skill
52:16
development courses.
52:17
SPEAKER_03: Great.
52:18
SPEAKER_03: But still,
52:19
SPEAKER_03: it's just as vague as the previous section,
52:21
SPEAKER_03: though,
52:21
SPEAKER_03: because it's not really telling us a whole lot more.
52:23
SPEAKER_03: So it's just reiterating the same thing.
52:25
SPEAKER_03: with a few more words.
52:27
SPEAKER_03: And then finally, position details.
52:29
This is a full-time position requiring a minimum of 40 hours
52:33
per week,
52:33
Monday through Friday.
52:35
SPEAKER_03: At this company,
52:36
SPEAKER_03: we are committed to creating an environment that prioritizes growth,
52:39
SPEAKER_03: work-life balance,
52:40
SPEAKER_03: and the diverse needs of our team members.
52:44
SPEAKER_03: And scene.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: So work-life balance with a minimum of 40 hours per week?
52:51
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
52:51
SPEAKER_00: that's not,
52:52
SPEAKER_00: not to,
52:53
SPEAKER_00: not to be pedantic about it,
52:54
SPEAKER_00: but this kind of does make me think like,
52:58
SPEAKER_00: especially the use of the word minimum.
53:00
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: Right.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: Um,
53:02
SPEAKER_00: when you say this position requires a minimum of 40 hours per week,
53:07
SPEAKER_00: uh,
53:07
that suggests that it's quite frequently going to be longer
53:10
than 40 hours a week,
53:10
SPEAKER_00: more,
53:11
SPEAKER_00: more effort than 40 hours a week,
53:13
SPEAKER_00: which
53:13
SPEAKER_00: Nothing wrong with that.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm no stranger to stupidly long work weeks.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: Like, at points in my career, I've put in 80 and 90-hour weeks.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: Sucks.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: Takes a toll on you.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: But it's a thing, and some people are okay with it.
53:28
SPEAKER_00: Is this going to be one of those jobs where,
53:31
SPEAKER_00: on one hand,
53:31
SPEAKER_00: you've got,
53:32
SPEAKER_00: hey,
53:32
SPEAKER_00: work-life balance is great,
53:34
SPEAKER_00: and on the other hand,
53:35
SPEAKER_00: you've got,
53:35
SPEAKER_00: hey,
53:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
53:37
SPEAKER_00: Jarvis over in Section Q needs this cover sheet for the TPS report by...
53:43
SPEAKER_00: 5 p.m.
53:43
SPEAKER_00: today or whatever.
53:46
Like,
53:46
are you going to have to like literally work stupid hours to do
53:51
your job?
53:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't know.
53:54
Maybe I'm being pedantic,
53:55
but the use of the word minimum really sticks out for me.
53:59
SPEAKER_03: Or they just didn't mean to put that right.
54:01
SPEAKER_03: They didn't they didn't quite.
54:03
It feels like the whole thing just needed another set of eyes,
54:07
another review.
54:08
SPEAKER_03: Maybe they just didn't mean to put that because,
54:10
SPEAKER_03: yeah,
54:11
SPEAKER_03: like you said,
54:11
SPEAKER_03: I didn't even think that until you said it,
54:13
SPEAKER_03: but that doesn't make any sense.
54:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that's the job overall.
54:22
SPEAKER_03: Do you feel ready to give it a score?
54:25
SPEAKER_03: Do I?
54:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:30
SPEAKER_00: So there are actually two scores.
54:34
The score that I would have given it before the benefits redux,
54:40
and that score was like a two.
54:45
SPEAKER_03: Yikes.
54:46
SPEAKER_03: I think that's your lowest score yet.
54:49
Yeah,
54:50
we're trending down because last week we had my lowest spot
54:53
number.
54:54
SPEAKER_03: A three.
54:55
SPEAKER_03: I think that was a three.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: Three or three and a half or something.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
55:00
SPEAKER_00: No.
55:00
So they kind of redeemed themselves a little bit in my eyes
55:03
with the benefits redux
55:05
SPEAKER_00: part where they clearly stated what the benefits actually were,
55:08
SPEAKER_00: even if they are a little light.
55:10
SPEAKER_00: I think overall, I'd probably score this like a four, four and a half.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: Even with the additional information, it was a bit vague.
55:21
There wasn't a lot here to really help the job seeker
55:27
contextualize what this role is.
55:30
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you know, it's a coach.
55:33
SPEAKER_00: You're a coach.
55:34
SPEAKER_00: You're in a software development IT services organization.
55:37
you know it's a professional services environment so your job
55:39
is to be a coach and
55:40
to help all the people who are producing billable hours like be
55:43
better um that that
55:45
part's pretty clear but there's a lot of context missing about
55:49
the organization and
55:50
about the clients and about like the work that's being done
55:54
there there's a ton of
55:55
SPEAKER_00: stuff missing that
55:57
SPEAKER_00: And you don't always have to put that into a job description,
56:02
but specifically when we're talking about a role like this that
56:07
is very ambiguous
56:08
just by the nature of what it is and the innovative thing the
56:11
company is trying to
56:12
SPEAKER_00: do,
56:13
SPEAKER_00: more contextual information would have been a whole lot better.
56:16
SPEAKER_00: It would have been really helpful.
56:19
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that was missing.
56:21
SPEAKER_00: They also didn't disclose use of AI in the hiring process, though we can
56:25
pretty much be certain that they're using ai in the hiring
56:28
process given the uh the
56:30
kind of loosely described uh video thing that you have to do
56:35
like yeah it's going
56:36
to be a screener of course it is um but they didn't disclose it
56:39
and they they were
56:40
required to by law in uh i think at least three jurisdictions
56:43
in canada now and
56:44
SPEAKER_00: several in the us yeah so that was that was a miss for me
56:49
And then just,
56:51
yeah,
56:51
the general ambiguity and lack of clarity really struck out.
56:56
SPEAKER_00: Like it really,
56:56
SPEAKER_00: it really struck out for me on this,
56:59
SPEAKER_00: like this,
56:59
SPEAKER_00: this job posting struck out big time because of that.
57:02
Though I do love what it seems like they're trying to do and I
57:05
wish them,
57:06
you know,
57:06
success.
57:08
But you needed to be a whole lot more clear about it to get a
57:11
report out of me.
57:14
SPEAKER_03: I agree.
57:14
SPEAKER_03: And I think that for me,
57:18
SPEAKER_03: I'd say it's probably going to be my lowest,
57:20
SPEAKER_03: like,
57:20
SPEAKER_03: like a two or something like that.
57:23
SPEAKER_03: If I, if I have to give them, I mean, they, they did something.
57:29
SPEAKER_03: So yay.
57:30
There's,
57:30
I think maybe even participation ribbon would be my ranking for
57:35
this one.
57:36
SPEAKER_03: And I think it's because, and maybe, maybe it's by design.
57:39
Maybe they're being really vague by design because they want to
57:42
cast a wide net
57:43
SPEAKER_03: see what kind of different skill sets they're attracting.
57:47
But like,
57:47
when I go back to,
57:48
I just pulled up my notes from when I was researching this
57:51
role.
57:51
SPEAKER_03: When I go back to the people who hold this role already,
57:55
one of them lists their responsibilities in a lot more detail
57:58
than what the job
57:59
SPEAKER_03: posting does.
57:59
SPEAKER_03: And I think that they could have just done that.
58:02
Like some of it is they,
58:06
they mentioned,
58:06
they mentioned HR,
58:08
they,
58:09
but they manage PTO requests.
58:11
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
58:12
SPEAKER_03: That's weird, right?
58:14
SPEAKER_03: Promotions, career progression discussions.
58:18
SPEAKER_03: They collaborate for events, initiatives, engagement, retention.
58:23
SPEAKER_03: So it's weird.
58:24
There's a lot more detail that you can find if you do a little
58:27
bit of digging,
58:28
SPEAKER_03: but why not just provide that information?
58:30
I can only assume that it's by design that they want to be
58:33
vague because if it's
58:34
SPEAKER_03: not,
58:35
SPEAKER_03: then it's like a really,
58:37
SPEAKER_03: really crappy job posting.
58:39
SPEAKER_03: And I am like, my mind is blown as to why
58:44
anyone approved that to go live for a posting like it's it's
58:49
really good and again
58:50
there's nothing about the company culture like if you're asking
58:53
someone to be like
58:54
a champion of culture or to like create a remote community give
58:59
us a little bit
59:00
more about what that what if it's some a culture that i
59:02
fundamentally disagree with
59:03
or whatever like what are what are the values what's the
59:06
mission like what are what
59:08
SPEAKER_03: are the folks like who work there um it's yeah like really uh
59:14
SPEAKER_03: Thumbs down job posting for me.
59:17
I was going to say when you were talking about that,
59:20
I was going to say the MDV was missing.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: The organizational purpose,
59:25
SPEAKER_00: the values,
59:26
the things that make people want to contribute to the success
59:30
of an organization
59:32
SPEAKER_00: beyond putting food on the table.
59:35
SPEAKER_00: Because let's be real about it.
59:37
There's a huge difference between working a job to put food on
59:41
the table and
59:42
working a job because you believe in what the organization is
59:45
trying to do and you
59:46
SPEAKER_00: want to advance their purpose,
59:48
SPEAKER_00: really.
59:48
SPEAKER_00: Big difference between those two things.
59:51
and the the talent who comes in for those two things into an
59:54
organization also very
59:55
different right like your motivation for someone who's just
59:59
there to collect a
59:59
paycheck versus your motivation for somebody who like believes
1:00:04
very different
1:00:04
SPEAKER_00: things so missed opportunity and um
1:00:08
SPEAKER_00: Another missed opportunity.
1:00:09
SPEAKER_00: I think anyway,
1:00:10
it was like I'm starting to really agree with you when you said
1:00:14
that That this was
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: a like kind of we're going fishing.
1:00:19
It's an evergreen We want to see what we get and then we'll get
1:00:22
more clear from there
1:00:24
SPEAKER_00: I really, I'm kind of starting to agree with you on that.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: But that also represents a missed opportunity unto itself.
1:00:32
SPEAKER_00: Why not just say that?
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
1:00:33
SPEAKER_00: And why not lean on that to do some employer branding and be like,
1:00:37
SPEAKER_00: hey,
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: this,
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: you could just like flat out say something to the effect of,
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: Hey, we're trying something.
1:00:45
SPEAKER_00: It's worked for us before.
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: It's ambiguous and weird and very bespoke.
1:00:50
SPEAKER_00: So we don't know what we're looking for,
1:00:52
SPEAKER_00: but when we find what you have,
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: we will know how to plug it in.
1:00:56
SPEAKER_00: So you're successful.
1:00:57
SPEAKER_03: I would love that.
1:00:59
why not tell that story that's a huge missed opportunity like
1:01:02
if i if i kind of got
1:01:03
that story out of that job posting i'd be amped i'd be like
1:01:06
yeah hey like co
1:01:09
co-design this with us like tell us yeah the ideas that you
1:01:13
have for this i agree
1:01:14
nothing about it was like exciting to me and i think people
1:01:16
forget um employers uh
1:01:20
SPEAKER_03: that they could be making it exciting.
1:01:22
Like you want the job posting to be like,
1:01:25
oh damn,
1:01:25
I need to apply for this job.
1:01:27
SPEAKER_03: Like this is so cool.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_03: I want to get this job.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_03: There's none of that here.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_03: Yeah,
1:01:34
SPEAKER_03: I was going to say something else along those lines,
1:01:36
but I completely lost my train of thought because you got me
1:01:39
excited about
1:01:40
SPEAKER_03: something else.
1:01:40
SPEAKER_03: So I saw a squirrel, I guess.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I think that
1:01:48
lots of lost opportunities i think it's super vague i'm not
1:01:51
sure they know what
1:01:52
they're looking for i remember what i was going to say all of
1:01:55
this to say that
1:01:57
there will be no shortage of people applying for this job like
1:02:01
people are going to
1:02:02
be applying because it's vague enough that you're like i could
1:02:05
do this right like
1:02:07
it's i was a teacher i was a software developer i was in hr i'm
1:02:12
a coach like it's
1:02:14
SPEAKER_03: it's so
1:02:16
SPEAKER_03: It's so vague and ambiguous that they will get a lot of applicants.
1:02:21
And I feel like if they just focused a little bit more than
1:02:26
that pool of candidates
1:02:28
SPEAKER_03: would be more aligned with what they're looking for and higher quality.
1:02:32
and i really wonder so that also kind of speaks to even though
1:02:36
they didn't disclose
1:02:37
it it kind of speaks to the use of an ai screener right yeah
1:02:40
like if they if they
1:02:41
know that they're going to get 10 000 to the e squared
1:02:47
bazillion people applying
1:02:49
for this job uh maybe they run into that problem that's like
1:02:52
yeah they're there
1:02:53
ain't enough hours in the day for a person to really manage
1:02:56
this process maybe
1:02:57
SPEAKER_00: that's
1:02:58
or the reason why they're they're using the ice greener thing
1:03:01
which suggests to me
1:03:02
that the uh the the pool of tears on the highway of sadness for
1:03:06
the people who
1:03:06
never hear back is going to be quite deep and quite long yeah
1:03:12
and you just made me
1:03:12
think of something else if it is an evergreen post if it is a
1:03:16
little bit of a
1:03:17
SPEAKER_03: fishing expedition
1:03:18
SPEAKER_03: then like, don't rush it.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_03: Slow down, write a better job description, right?
1:03:24
SPEAKER_03: Like again,
1:03:24
SPEAKER_03: if you're not in a group,
1:03:25
SPEAKER_03: there is no specific start date for someone,
1:03:28
SPEAKER_03: then just reel it in a little bit.
1:03:31
SPEAKER_03: There's lots of fishing that we're talking about right now.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_03: Reel it in a little bit,
1:03:38
SPEAKER_03: get it right,
1:03:39
SPEAKER_03: refine it,
1:03:40
SPEAKER_03: and then cast it back out into the pool of applicants,
1:03:44
SPEAKER_03: if you will.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_03: I hate myself right now.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_03: for talking about fishing so much.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: My wife hates fish.
1:03:52
She just is weirded out by them,
1:03:54
so she wouldn't dig this conversation either.
1:03:55
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to tell her not to watch this one.
1:04:00
But you make a very good point like if you're going to if
1:04:03
you're gonna have a
1:04:04
continual kind of application process for this Then you can you
1:04:09
can adopt an
1:04:10
SPEAKER_00: approach and a process that is iterative,
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: right?
1:04:14
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're always recruiting for this role Maybe like do something
1:04:20
kind of normal on linkedin or indeed or whatever and just kick
1:04:23
people off to your
1:04:23
website and then have like a very um a very like human centric
1:04:29
marketing focused
1:04:30
kind of like this is what we're doing like yeah you know get in
1:04:34
or get out like
1:04:35
what do you want i don't know yeah and also if you are you said
1:04:39
a good uh you made
1:04:40
me think of something else if you are always looking to hire
1:04:43
for this role
1:04:45
why is it high turnover like what or is it like again like we
1:04:51
alluded to something
1:04:52
that that's in development and is emergent and iterative yeah
1:04:57
very very interesting
1:04:58
this one for such a short job posting like on paper it made us
1:05:04
talk a lot there's a
1:05:06
SPEAKER_03: lot do better do better with your job postings I don't understand
1:05:13
SPEAKER_00: I would imagine,
1:05:14
SPEAKER_00: to touch on what you just said,
1:05:15
I would imagine that there probably is quite a bit of turnover
1:05:20
for a role like
1:05:20
SPEAKER_00: this.
1:05:21
Because it is not every single person on the face of the earth
1:05:26
who deals with ambiguity well.
1:05:29
SPEAKER_00: There are lots of people who
1:05:31
who don't deal with ambiguity well and who really collapse in
1:05:38
the face of like a
1:05:39
SPEAKER_00: lack of structure.
1:05:41
SPEAKER_00: I would imagine that there's quite a bit of turnover from folks who,
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: you know,
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: they went in,
1:05:45
SPEAKER_00: tried to make it work.
1:05:46
It was just hair shaped right from the start because they were
1:05:49
the ones who were
1:05:50
SPEAKER_00: supposed to be shaping it as well as actually running like their program.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_00: That's tough to do.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: So I would imagine there's quite a bit of turnover because of that.
1:06:02
SPEAKER_03: And if you don't have the authority to shape things,
1:06:04
SPEAKER_03: if you don't have the resources,
1:06:07
SPEAKER_03: then it's just going to combust.
1:06:09
SPEAKER_03: That's a really good point.
1:06:14
If you're a coach,
1:06:15
then you probably don't have authority to make structural
1:06:17
changes.
1:06:19
SPEAKER_03: But a coach, remember, who's approving PTO?
1:06:22
And stuff and and who's who's talking about like I don't know I
1:06:27
feel like there's
1:06:27
SPEAKER_03: some we talked about this,
1:06:28
SPEAKER_03: but they're they're blurred lines,
1:06:30
and I think that being a coach is a role that requires a lot of
1:06:34
like high integrity
1:06:36
SPEAKER_03: and compartmentalizing and not blurring the lines,
1:06:40
SPEAKER_03: but here you're saying.
1:06:41
You're a coach for people and you also get to decide like their
1:06:45
salaries and
1:06:47
SPEAKER_03: approve their time off.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_03: And like, that's weird.
1:06:50
SPEAKER_03: Again, that tells me that you don't have a manager then.
1:06:53
SPEAKER_03: Maybe they're trying to do a whole like manager one or situation.
1:06:56
SPEAKER_03: I don't know, but it's like making this person be a coach and a manager.
1:07:02
SPEAKER_03: It's really weird.
1:07:05
Well,
1:07:06
it seems like we have talked the talk and we have talked
1:07:10
ourselves out.
1:07:13
SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed that, though.
1:07:14
SPEAKER_00: For a short post, that generated a lot of thinking.
1:07:18
SPEAKER_00: But I think we can consider this thing roasted.
1:07:23
Thanks for riding shotgun with us on roast the post,
1:07:25
the story behind the bullet points.
1:07:27
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1:07:31
just confirmed your
1:07:31
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1:07:32
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