Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Do "Zoo Wars" end in Joe Exotic murder for hire? Plot thickens around 'Tiger King.'

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Do "Zoo Wars" end in Joe Exotic murder for hire? Plot thickens around 'Tiger King.' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I Want Justice.
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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace premieres March ninth, only on
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Speaker 1: Fox Nation. Who knew that the grudge fest runs so
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Speaker 1: deeply in the world of zoos and animal sanctuaries in
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Speaker 1: our own country that are runs so deeply it leads
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Speaker 1: to hit men. Thousands of dollars exchanged in order to
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Speaker 1: knock off rub out put the head and a jar
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Speaker 1: of a famous animal rights activists who runs an animal sanctuary.
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Speaker 1: As the jealousy, the greed, the envy, the hatred, the
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Speaker 1: anger so intense they are willing to kill. We're talking
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Speaker 1: about none other than the flamboyant Joe Exotic a ka Passage,
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Speaker 1: a ka Shrevil. What is his real name and why
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Speaker 1: would he demand Carol Baskin's head quote in a jar?
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Speaker 1: His word's not mine? I Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
1:29
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A day at the zoo.
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Speaker 1: That's a specialty with me and my twins, my husband.
1:44
Speaker 1: Every time we go to a different city, we go
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Speaker 1: to the zoo and it's awesome. I'll never forget the
1:50
Speaker 1: zoo at the Bronx, their primates at the san Diego zoo.
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Speaker 1: It goes on and on. But I normally don't think
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Speaker 1: of hit men demanding somebody's head in a jar when
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Speaker 1: I think of taking the children to the zoo. But
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Speaker 1: all that has changed with the name Joe Exotic not
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Speaker 1: his real name. I mean, see Grace, this is crime stories.
2:17
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation,
2:20
Speaker 1: at Sirius XM one eleven. Let's kick it off, Jackie
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Speaker 1: roll that beautiful sound. A zookeeper with the prison for
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Speaker 1: murder for hire. There are more captive tigers in the
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Speaker 1: US than there are in the wild throughout the world.
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Speaker 1: They old people are nuts, man, They're all crazy. I'm
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Speaker 1: sure y'all got a story to tell. Good afternoon, ladies
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Speaker 1: and gentlemen. My name's Joe Exotic. In this society, it
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Speaker 1: was like a mythical character living out in the middle
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Speaker 1: of Oklahoma who owned twelve hundred tigers and lions and
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Speaker 1: bears and speaking good looking. I love the party and
3:02
Speaker 1: have fun. I don't think we're that flowing up today.
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Speaker 1: They have a heart than the soul in mind. I've
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Speaker 1: learned from them. But Carol Basket and Kate saying I
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Speaker 1: can't have these taggers if he ever had an animate
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Speaker 1: of his life, it was Carol Baskin Cool Cats and Kittens.
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Speaker 1: It's Carol, a big cat. Rescue Carol. It's the mother
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Speaker 1: Teresa of cats. Sleeve will into the private possession of
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Speaker 1: these cats. This is my way of living and nobody's
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Speaker 1: gonna tell me any otherwise. Well, I don't know about that.
3:33
Speaker 1: What you're hearing right there is from Netflix Tiger King, Murder,
3:37
Speaker 1: Mayhem and Madness. Yeah, that's a show on Netflix, But
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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the real world and how many dead
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Speaker 1: bodies are going to pile up before this thing is
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Speaker 1: all sorted out. Again, thank you for being with us,
3:51
Speaker 1: with me and All Star Panel to figure out how
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Speaker 1: Murder and Mayhem finds its way into as we call it,
3:59
Speaker 1: a zoo with me. Special guest the Sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida,
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Speaker 1: Sheriff Chad Kronister, Doctor Gray Stafford, Director Conversation Director Conservation
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Speaker 1: at Wildlife World Zoo formerly now author of Zoo Milty
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Speaker 1: Keeper Tales of Training with Positive Reinforcement. Just so you know,
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Speaker 1: we're talking about Tiger's Gray Stafford and we'll get to
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Speaker 1: that positive reinforcement later. Renowned defense Attorney Jason or Oceans
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Speaker 1: joining me out of the New York jurisdiction. Bruce Johnson,
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Speaker 1: ESP Investigations Master Sergeant, Region one Crime Scene Commander, Chicago
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Speaker 1: Metro Retired. Cheryl McCullum, Founder and Director of the Cold
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Speaker 1: Case Research Institute, doctor Bethany Marshall's psychoanalyst and Beverly Hills
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Speaker 1: at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. But right now to
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Speaker 1: the New York Post investigative reporter Michael Kaplan, I want
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Speaker 1: to start with you on who is Joe Exotic? Who
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Speaker 1: is that? Well, you know, he's this guy that owns
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Speaker 1: that he owned a roadside zoo where you were able
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Speaker 1: to go and pet you know, lying cubs, and you know,
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Speaker 1: then he was doing his roadside magic show where he'd
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Speaker 1: you know, show up at shopping malls to do the
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Speaker 1: sort of cut rate Siegfried and Roy deal. You know,
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Speaker 1: he had two husbands at once, and he m you know,
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Speaker 1: he was an interesting, colorful, weirdly charismatic guy. And he
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Speaker 1: developed his vendetta against this woman named Carol Baskin and
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Speaker 1: wanted to have her murdered, and he hired one person
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Speaker 1: to murder her, and that that did not whoa, whoa
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Speaker 1: whoa you get in the cart before the horse, Michael Kaplan,
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Speaker 1: Let me figure this out. Joe Exotic is number one.
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Speaker 1: Not his real name, um? Correct, what's his real name?
5:52
Speaker 1: His real name is. His last name is um. His
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Speaker 1: last name is exactly thank you. But he's got a
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Speaker 1: much longer name than that that hef the tongue. No,
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Speaker 1: it really doesn't. And to Cheryl McCallum joining me a
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Speaker 1: cold case research institute, Cheryl, what can you tell me
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Speaker 1: about his zoo? It's a private zoo, Nancy, where he
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Speaker 1: has these tiggers, he's got the bears, he's got monkeys,
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Speaker 1: he's got all these wonderful animals that people can come
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Speaker 1: and see. But it's his private property. It's his private zoo,
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Speaker 1: a private zoo, you know. To you, doctor Gray Stafford,
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Speaker 1: h what's the name of your podcast? It's called zoo Logic.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for asking, right, zoo Logic. And you were
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Speaker 1: at Wildlife World Zoo. As a matter of fact, that's
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Speaker 1: where I met you when I was out in Arizona
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Speaker 1: covering the Jodi Aria's trial for months on end, and
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Speaker 1: I got a good look at that was a Wildlife
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Speaker 1: World zoo. Was that a private zoo. It is own
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Speaker 1: privately for profit, but it is accredited by national trade associations. Okay, TMI,
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Speaker 1: is it a private zoo? Because I'm trying to understand
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Speaker 1: what's the difference between a private zoo and a public zoo. Well,
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Speaker 1: very often it's just a matter of tax status. Zoos
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Speaker 1: are held to I don't know about that. I don't
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Speaker 1: know about that because when I saw a Wildife World Zoo,
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Speaker 1: it was and I loved it. By the way, it
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Speaker 1: was different from any zoo I had ever seen, such
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Speaker 1: as the Atlanta Zoo or the Bronx Zoo or the
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Speaker 1: San Diego Zoo. It was very different in many many ways.
7:36
Speaker 1: But let me get back to Joe Exotic. What does
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Speaker 1: that mean a private zoo? In my mind, as a
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Speaker 1: former prosecutor, immediately tells me, there's not as much a
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Speaker 1: governmental regulation. That's actually not true because if they're open
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Speaker 1: to the public, they're subject to USDA inspection. These are
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Speaker 1: random inspections, and so there's a minimum set of requirements
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Speaker 1: under the MMA Welcome X that all dudes, if you're
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Speaker 1: open to the public, are held to. Gotta do a
8:04
Speaker 1: little quick research here to you kaplan real name Joe
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Speaker 1: Exotic aka Joseph Allen Muldonno Passage aka Joseph Shrivel. And
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Speaker 1: you know, to you, Jason Oceans, you're the defense attorney
8:18
Speaker 1: joining me. I like nothing better than to read an
8:20
Speaker 1: indictment in front of the jury and read all the
8:23
Speaker 1: aliases of the defendant because very rarely does anybody on
8:28
Speaker 1: the jury have more than one name. I mean I
8:30
Speaker 1: have one name. I think you have one name. But
8:33
Speaker 1: when somebody starts adopting different names and going by them,
8:37
Speaker 1: you gotta wonder why Joe Jason Oceans. Well, he's a performer,
8:42
Speaker 1: he's you know, he's a character live, you know, bigger
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Speaker 1: than life. That's what you do. You change your name
8:49
Speaker 1: when you're part of Hollywood. Yeah, of course, every no
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Speaker 1: one has their real name. But whatever thought of being
8:56
Speaker 1: a zookeeper as being part of Hollywood. But okay, your interpretation,
9:01
Speaker 1: not my red and roy. I mean that's the area
9:03
Speaker 1: you're trying to create. Take take us and our friends
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Speaker 1: at kfo R. This is news for reporter speaking. Joseph
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Speaker 1: Mauldenado Passage, better known as Oklahoma's Tiger Guy Joe Exotic
9:18
Speaker 1: indicted by a federal grand jury Wednesday on two counts
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Speaker 1: of hiring someone to commit murder. The former owner of
9:23
Speaker 1: the Greater Winningwood Animal Park at twenty sixteen presidential hopeful
9:27
Speaker 1: and most recently Oklahoma Libertarian guber tentorial candidate, I ain't
9:31
Speaker 1: got myer, I ain't changing the address, arrested by US
9:35
Speaker 1: Marshalls in Florida Friday. Current park owners say Maldenado Passage
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Speaker 1: was kicked off the property months back and hasn't owned
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Speaker 1: the zoo for several years. But it was several years ago,
9:43
Speaker 1: beginning in February twenty fourteen, that, according to court documents,
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Speaker 1: Mauldenado Passage began posting threats on Facebook and YouTube like
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Speaker 1: this one. You want to know why you never never,
9:57
Speaker 1: never face to face. Never did you know that you
10:07
Speaker 1: were the subject of his possible clock. He's been threatening
10:12
Speaker 1: me for years, so there's no doubt in anybody's mind
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Speaker 1: who knows him that he intended to kill me. Crime
10:32
Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about a guy
10:37
Speaker 1: called Joe Exotic. He named himself Joe Exotic, not his
10:42
Speaker 1: real name, real name Shrivel, and he's a subject of
10:45
Speaker 1: a brand new Netflix hit called Tiger King Murder mayhem
10:49
Speaker 1: and madness. But it's real. It's not just a show
10:52
Speaker 1: a program on Netflix. This is real. You were just
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Speaker 1: hearing where Joe Exotic says never ever, ever, ever, ever.
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Speaker 1: I don't know how many nevers, but bottom line, never
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Speaker 1: should Carol Baskin see Joe Exotic. It sounds like Nanny
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Speaker 1: Nanny boo boo on the playground, But the reality is
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Speaker 1: take a listen to part of the Netflix dot Take
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Speaker 1: a listen to this. Joe brought it up several times.
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Speaker 1: You know, anybody can kill the lady. I just put
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Speaker 1: it off. As you know, bullet. I came into office
11:29
Speaker 1: one day and he's like, well, I got this crossbowt
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Speaker 1: he can use this on her nature trail. Wherever she walks,
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Speaker 1: You shoot her with this and nobody'd ever see it.
11:38
Speaker 1: I'm like, what the okay? You see me walking around
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Speaker 1: floor with a camouflage suit on. Okay, but a crossbow
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Speaker 1: give me a break. Alan Glover he's an old time
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Speaker 1: employee of Jeff. Jeff knows him real well, supposely since
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Speaker 1: he has a tear drop tattoo. He's killed somebody before. Well,
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Speaker 1: Joe Cannery one day decide the blue. He says, you
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Speaker 1: think Alan can kill somebody, I said, is you capable
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Speaker 1: of it? I said, of course, who's not. I'll cut
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Speaker 1: her head off for you if you want. And he's
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Speaker 1: all into that, said you would you let me never
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Speaker 1: bring it back? No, no, get rid of in the swamp. Okay,
12:15
Speaker 1: we'll do wow. Okay. So how did it suddenly go
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Speaker 1: to dctor Bethany Marshall from making threats? As I said,
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Speaker 1: it sounds like Nanny Nanny booboo on the playground. You
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Speaker 1: better not ever ever, never, never, never times ten to infinity,
12:32
Speaker 1: as I say to the twins, infinity see me face
12:36
Speaker 1: to face two actually speaking to someone about killing Carol
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Speaker 1: Baskin with a crossbow. First of all, hold on, let
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Speaker 1: me lay the foundation. Michael Kaplan, who is Carol Baskin
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Speaker 1: as it relates to Joe Exotic in a nutshell? In
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Speaker 1: a nutshell? She owns a place called Big Cat Rescue,
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Speaker 1: which is designed to as an animal refuge, you know,
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Speaker 1: for for big cats, for lions and tigers and the like.
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Speaker 1: And she is a big advocate against people who raise
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Speaker 1: who have you know, zoos we can go and pet
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Speaker 1: the cubs, because she believes that it's animal abuse. And
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Speaker 1: she went after Joe and he didn't like it. He
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Speaker 1: has that's his whole business is based on being able
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Speaker 1: to pet, you know, these cubs, and that's why people
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Speaker 1: go there. And she went after him, and to you,
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Speaker 1: doctor Gray Stafford of Zoologic podcast, Doctor Stafford, what was
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Speaker 1: it that he, Joe Exotic, was doing that drove Carol Baskin,
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Speaker 1: the fairy Godmother to Cats so crazy. Well, party was
13:43
Speaker 1: that he was raising cubs and using them for photo
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Speaker 1: opportunities when they're very young, very small, and raising a
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Speaker 1: lot of money that way. And she didn't appreciate the
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Speaker 1: uncontrolled breeding and the use of those animals from a
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Speaker 1: welfare indpoint that Well, you know, that's a lot of
14:01
Speaker 1: big words. I think what you're saying, let me just
14:04
Speaker 1: boil it down to regular people talk. He gets the
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Speaker 1: baby tigers and takes them out to malls and basically
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Speaker 1: wherever anybody will pay him for photo ops. And then
14:15
Speaker 1: the baby tigers, I'm calling them babies. I'm sure you
14:18
Speaker 1: have a zoological name for them that's proper. Then get
14:21
Speaker 1: human germs that can make them ill, and they're treated
14:25
Speaker 1: more like have you ever seen Dumbo. Let's really break
14:29
Speaker 1: it down. Have you ever seen Dumbo. Great. Okay, well
14:34
Speaker 1: you need to refresh yourself with a new one, or
14:39
Speaker 1: you've sent you've heard stories forget Walt Disney stories where
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Speaker 1: animals are kept in chains and mistreated. She's worried about
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Speaker 1: the way the tigers are treated. She doesn't want them
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Speaker 1: to be just a prop in a show. Is my
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Speaker 1: understanding of her anger toward him? Am I right or wrong?
14:59
Speaker 1: Tell me it won't my feelings? Well, I think she
15:01
Speaker 1: she had a personal alliance against him, but she has
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Speaker 1: been at a zoo for all of her public career.
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Speaker 1: She actively works against modern zoos that do credible things,
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Speaker 1: not just people like Joe exot. Okay, we're getting off
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Speaker 1: on a tangent. Let's get out of the weeds and
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Speaker 1: bat in the middle of the road. What was it
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Speaker 1: about Joe Exotic? She hated in a nutshell, Gray Stafford,
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Speaker 1: uncontrolled breeding and from her point of view, exploiting animals
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Speaker 1: from money. Got it? Thank you? You know what, once
15:31
Speaker 1: you got your PhD, you really started talking a lot more.
15:35
Speaker 1: But that's a whole other cannon worms. So another issue
15:39
Speaker 1: happened to Michael Kaplan as it relates to Joe Exotic.
15:42
Speaker 1: Carol Baskin sued him for what she discovered. She was
15:48
Speaker 1: going after him, and he didn't like it, so he
15:51
Speaker 1: changed the name of his traveling show to be very
15:54
Speaker 1: similar to hers. I mean, her company is called Big
15:56
Speaker 1: Cat Rescue, and his show had the words Big Cat
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Speaker 1: Rescue it and the phone number was very similar to hers.
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Speaker 1: And she sued him for copyright infringement. So she sues him.
16:05
Speaker 1: She's going after him for the way she perceives he
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Speaker 1: treats the tigers the cats as you guys call them,
16:11
Speaker 1: and he doesn't like it. So to get back at her,
16:14
Speaker 1: he renames him your Word's not my Michael Kaplan New
16:18
Speaker 1: York Post. He renames his show Big Cat, and it
16:23
Speaker 1: makes her mad. Is she sues him for infringement on
16:27
Speaker 1: the name of her wildlife sanctuary. I think that's the
16:32
Speaker 1: way it all goes down. Take a listen to this
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Speaker 1: from Netflix. Joe put a picture of her property and
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Speaker 1: on Facebook and it said finally found where the bitch lives?
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Speaker 1: What are you doing? You know? What are you stupid?
16:43
Speaker 1: I'd love to cute cat truth be told. It'd be
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Speaker 1: better for the animal industry if Carol wasn't dead. Little
16:48
Speaker 1: Hearts from the bottom. But he started to concern me
16:55
Speaker 1: enough when I realized Joe's been gone for complete liability.
17:00
Speaker 1: We're not done yet. We're still gonna dig up Carrol's ask.
17:03
Speaker 1: Before I'm done with this, I'm gonna have the bitches
17:06
Speaker 1: add in a jar. Joe probably thought I was loyal
17:08
Speaker 1: to him and I would never turn on him. I
17:11
Speaker 1: told Lauren, I said, you know, I'm Colin James Garretson
17:14
Speaker 1: and I want to meet. So jeff Low decided, Hey,
17:18
Speaker 1: let's meet at Applebee's. Jeff Low claims Joe's doing all
17:23
Speaker 1: this illegal stuff. He said, I wanted to get rid
17:25
Speaker 1: of that zoo. I want to get out of that headache.
17:29
Speaker 1: And I said, call Carrol Baskin can tell her. For
17:32
Speaker 1: half a million bucks, I will hand her Joe on
17:34
Speaker 1: a silver platter with all the crimes I know he's committed. Wow,
17:38
Speaker 1: we're hearing a lot. But the words that stuck out
17:40
Speaker 1: in my mind that really made me sit up straight.
17:44
Speaker 1: Sheriff Chad Kronister, or the sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida,
17:48
Speaker 1: and Carol Baskin's sanctuary. There Sheriff, the words, I want
17:55
Speaker 1: her head in a jar. Doesn't that sound a lot
17:58
Speaker 1: like a terroristic threat to you share you know, but
18:02
Speaker 1: I tell you, if you watch the documentary, everyone on
18:05
Speaker 1: there is eccentric and complicated. But the sad part is
18:10
Speaker 1: it's all real life. Now. I was just going to
18:12
Speaker 1: say that to you, Sheriff with me special gifts, Sheriff
18:15
Speaker 1: Chad Chronister, the elected sheriff there in Hillsborough County, Florida.
18:21
Speaker 1: You know, Sheriff Chronister, again, thank you for being with us.
18:24
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say everybody in this
18:26
Speaker 1: scenario is eccentric. Well, that may well be true, but
18:31
Speaker 1: calling for somebody's head in a jar goes beyond. It
18:36
Speaker 1: crosses the line of eccentricity to a terroristic threat. What
18:41
Speaker 1: exactly We've been talking about this a lot lately, terroristic
18:44
Speaker 1: threats as it relates to coronavirus hoaxes and scares doctor.
18:48
Speaker 1: Excuse me, Sheriff Chronister, When is something a terroristic threat
18:53
Speaker 1: as opposed to just bragging and boasting. Well, any with
18:57
Speaker 1: any type of threat, the same threshold remains. And that's
19:00
Speaker 1: when you take an overt act to carry out that threat.
19:04
Speaker 1: That's what it becomes problematic. That's what it becomes criminal.
19:06
Speaker 1: When you threaten it verbally or an email, text, a
19:11
Speaker 1: phone call, and then you commit an overt act. It
19:15
Speaker 1: can be sending an email, it can be leaving a
19:18
Speaker 1: phone message when you actually start to do something about
19:21
Speaker 1: the overt threat. Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here. I have
19:33
Speaker 1: investigated and prosecuted literally thousands of felony cases. I have
19:40
Speaker 1: covered literally thousands of cases of missing people, adults and children,
19:46
Speaker 1: unsolved homicides, of violent crimes. My question is what can
19:52
Speaker 1: we do about it. I don't want to just sit
19:56
Speaker 1: back and report on it. I want to take action,
19:59
Speaker 1: and I know you must feel the same way. And
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Speaker 1: exploited children crime stories with Nancy Grace. Guys were talking about,
21:01
Speaker 1: as he titles himself, Joe Exotic. Take a listen to
21:05
Speaker 1: our friends over at Netflix. I heard that Joe tried
21:08
Speaker 1: to hire someone to kill Carol. He's been trying to
21:11
Speaker 1: get somebody kill Carol for years, all right. When Jeff
21:14
Speaker 1: came along, everybody thought Jeff was this multi millionaire and
21:18
Speaker 1: had all this money and blah blah blah blah blah.
21:21
Speaker 1: And whenever Jeff got around, Joe got a big head.
21:24
Speaker 1: And those two we're trying to eat Carroll wept. Why
21:30
Speaker 1: are you so convinced of that? Because I was the
21:32
Speaker 1: only one there. You were actually there. Yeah, the first
21:37
Speaker 1: time I met and discussed the whole murder for hire.
21:40
Speaker 1: We're sitting in on a meeting Joe's and his little
21:43
Speaker 1: office back there. Difflos right here, and they were talking
21:46
Speaker 1: about the easiest way to kill Carol. Youah, you cool.
21:49
Speaker 1: Cassie Kitten sas Carroll for Big Cat Rescue. It was
21:52
Speaker 1: a day where she was riding her bicycle down by
21:54
Speaker 1: cycle path and she's riding with the wicked Witch of
21:57
Speaker 1: the West, and Joe's his look at this bitch. She
21:59
Speaker 1: rides this entire bike trail and there's nobody around. He says,
22:03
Speaker 1: that's where you gotta hit her. That's where I gotta
22:05
Speaker 1: get it. Let me take a shot from the bushes
22:07
Speaker 1: and get her right there. Okay, out to you, Cheryl McCollum.
22:10
Speaker 1: This is no longer just bragging. This is real. They're
22:13
Speaker 1: taking a look at her bike trail where she walks
22:16
Speaker 1: and bikes every day to pick out the location to
22:19
Speaker 1: murder her. All because of this lawsuit, which I might
22:22
Speaker 1: add she won about a million dollar verdict. So that
22:27
Speaker 1: is starting to sound real based on what Sheriff Chad
22:31
Speaker 1: Chronister just said. That's an overt act. You're not just
22:34
Speaker 1: saying I want her head in a jar. You're saying,
22:36
Speaker 1: let's pick out her bike path, this is where we
22:39
Speaker 1: can kill her. They are plodding, they are planning, They
22:42
Speaker 1: are mapping this thing out. Joe is definitely looking at
22:46
Speaker 1: you know, on Google Earth. He visited the place. He's
22:51
Speaker 1: telling people what he wan't done to her, where he
22:54
Speaker 1: wants it done to her, and they're talking about money
22:57
Speaker 1: at the straight up murder for high You're right, as
22:59
Speaker 1: you say, a straight up murder for a hire. Because
23:02
Speaker 1: he's gone beyond just bragging about it. Listen to our
23:05
Speaker 1: friends at Netflix, and then Jeff Low goes to Good
23:08
Speaker 1: Work shows a bike path right by big Ter Rescue
23:12
Speaker 1: and stuff, and he's like, oh, you go to sit
23:14
Speaker 1: right here and then shoot her while she's riding a bike.
23:17
Speaker 1: So Jeff Low knew more about this thematics than anything
23:22
Speaker 1: that was because I was the only one smart enough
23:24
Speaker 1: to bring up the picture on Google Earth and show
23:26
Speaker 1: it to Travils. Travis says, I can shoot it from there.
23:29
Speaker 1: I can shoot it from there, and Joe was like,
23:31
Speaker 1: you're not shooting there because you're my husband and you're
23:33
Speaker 1: you'll go to jail forever. I'm looking back. None of
23:40
Speaker 1: that gone to mine. Commuter talked, Jeff Lowing knew now
23:47
Speaker 1: now Joe talked about killing this woman. If it wasn't
23:52
Speaker 1: a daily basis, it was definitely every week as well.
23:56
Speaker 1: The bitch still lives another day and says, I'm I'll
23:59
Speaker 1: find somebody. He just wasn't a show about it. You're
24:01
Speaker 1: hearing our friends at Netflix in their new program Tiger King, Murder,
24:06
Speaker 1: Mayhem and Maddness. That's a program. This is real. So
24:10
Speaker 1: now to you joining us, Bruce Johnson. Bruce, owner ESP Investigations,
24:16
Speaker 1: former crime scene commander in Chicago. Bruce, Now he's got
24:20
Speaker 1: the route his call for her head in a jar,
24:23
Speaker 1: and he's looked up the route for her murder on
24:26
Speaker 1: Google Earth, and it's passing it over to a would
24:29
Speaker 1: be hit man. That makes out a bona fidei terroristic threat,
24:34
Speaker 1: does it not, Bruce? Yes, it does. But as the
24:37
Speaker 1: sheriff mentioned earlier, there are many characters to this plot,
24:41
Speaker 1: and a lot of the stuff that Carol was doing
24:45
Speaker 1: was not one hundred percent innocent either. Number one, she
24:49
Speaker 1: has a missing husband that wasn't fully investigated according to
24:53
Speaker 1: the story. Number two, this guy Jess as a convicted
24:56
Speaker 1: felon his partner that brought into the scene with the
25:00
Speaker 1: drop tattoo Ona's eye, possibly into Conney. He's done a murder,
25:04
Speaker 1: is his best is Jeff's best friend. So you got
25:07
Speaker 1: this circle of people that are all, wait a minute,
25:11
Speaker 1: you know, wait a minute, Bruce Johnson. Cheryl McCollum, founder
25:16
Speaker 1: director of Cold Case Researches, did you trying to put
25:19
Speaker 1: this thing back together again? Who do you think Joe
25:21
Speaker 1: exotics going to hang around with nuns and priests and virgins.
25:24
Speaker 1: Of course they're all eccentric, as you guys are saying,
25:29
Speaker 1: that's certainly a euphemism putting perfume on the pig, and
25:33
Speaker 1: nobody's in this with clean hands. But the reality is
25:36
Speaker 1: we're talking about a murder plan, Cheryl, that is set
25:40
Speaker 1: apart from all of the other eccentricities. Would you not agree?
25:43
Speaker 1: I agree? And as my former prostitutor used to say,
25:47
Speaker 1: swans don't swim in the sewer. If you are looking
25:50
Speaker 1: for somebody to do something for you, look for her.
25:54
Speaker 1: You're clearly going to go to the guy that you
25:56
Speaker 1: think can pull it off, which used to be in
25:59
Speaker 1: a gang, used to be in prison. That's who you're
26:01
Speaker 1: going to go to. You know, I forgot. I used
26:03
Speaker 1: to say that to juries until you reminded me. Suans
26:06
Speaker 1: don't swim in a sewer. Well put, Cheryl McCollum, So
26:10
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. As the murder for Higher
26:14
Speaker 1: plot thickens. All I knew is Joe had already picked
26:18
Speaker 1: out in Glover for the hit, so I told the
26:21
Speaker 1: FBI lover was going to actually do it. Nobody at
26:26
Speaker 1: the park knew about the undercover stuff, not even Jeff
26:29
Speaker 1: Lowe I was sitting at my desk when the phone
26:34
Speaker 1: rang and it was FBI. They felt there was an
26:38
Speaker 1: effort by Joe to kill Carol. So when I'm told, well,
26:42
Speaker 1: there's a credible threat, now, I'm like, there's been a
26:44
Speaker 1: credible threat all of this time. You just caught onto
26:47
Speaker 1: it in the last few days. We were aware of
26:50
Speaker 1: this possibility. It's just that call seriously elevated this. We
26:55
Speaker 1: reached out to miss Baskin and I want to say
26:58
Speaker 1: November twenty seventeen, and this was at the point where
27:01
Speaker 1: we'd heard some recorded phone calls and conversations between mister
27:05
Speaker 1: Garrettson and mister Maldon Auto Passage indicating that there was
27:10
Speaker 1: in fact a plot coming together. If mister Glover was
27:14
Speaker 1: leaving to commit this murder, mister Garrettson would have knowledge
27:18
Speaker 1: of that straight out to a New York Post investigative
27:21
Speaker 1: reporter Michael Kaplan, Michael, how much money are we talking about?
27:25
Speaker 1: How much did Joe Exotic aka shrivil Aka Passage offered
27:31
Speaker 1: to pay? How much did he actually pay for the
27:34
Speaker 1: hit on Carol Baskin They Godmother of Cats. It was
27:38
Speaker 1: three thousand dollars down payment. I think more to come
27:41
Speaker 1: after the job was done. So this guy took the
27:43
Speaker 1: three cats. Not that much, Kaplan, three grand. I can
27:47
Speaker 1: off you for three grand, don't do it. I mean,
27:51
Speaker 1: you know you can max out your credit cards and
27:53
Speaker 1: get that much. Okay, I won't. So he actually, though,
27:56
Speaker 1: paid over several thousand dollars. How much did he actually
28:00
Speaker 1: a handover for the hit? My understanding is it was
28:03
Speaker 1: three grand. That's what he gave. I don't know what
28:05
Speaker 1: the total sum was going to be, honestly, So that
28:08
Speaker 1: was kind of like a down payment. Do you do
28:10
Speaker 1: you remember the phrase layaway you'd give let's just pretend
28:14
Speaker 1: Sears Roebuck, you know, fifteen dollars for your sweater, so
28:18
Speaker 1: by Christmas time you could pay the whole thing off.
28:22
Speaker 1: So he put up down three thousand dollars on the hit,
28:25
Speaker 1: with the rest guaranteed after the murder. Is that the
28:27
Speaker 1: way it worked, Michael Kaplan? I've never done it before,
28:32
Speaker 1: but that's my understanding. Well, I think you get the
28:35
Speaker 1: basic nuts and bolts of the whole thing. You know,
28:37
Speaker 1: one thing that Carol Baskin, who we call today, doesn't
28:40
Speaker 1: want to speak, and I'll tell you why later. Sheriff
28:43
Speaker 1: Chad Kronister joining me special guests out of share. He's
28:46
Speaker 1: the elected sheriff out of Hillsborough County, Florida. When she said, hey,
28:52
Speaker 1: this has been happening for years, but you guys just
28:54
Speaker 1: caught onto it. Well, had she ever made affordable complaint
28:58
Speaker 1: to police about him and death threat? She did not.
29:01
Speaker 1: We didn't have. We weren't working anything here on the
29:03
Speaker 1: local level now because it was made over state lines.
29:06
Speaker 1: It's my understanding that the Feds were involved with it,
29:09
Speaker 1: but we were never notified of it here locally. I
29:12
Speaker 1: mean Sheriff Chronister. I appreciate her fear that this has
29:16
Speaker 1: been threats, had been going on for years, but then
29:19
Speaker 1: suddenly stay, hey, you guys just caught onto it. Well,
29:23
Speaker 1: you know what if you want the cops to know something,
29:26
Speaker 1: that's why we have nine one one. We are talking
29:30
Speaker 1: go heck Sheriff absolutely one percent, no different than any
29:34
Speaker 1: other areas as a local law of course agency. If
29:36
Speaker 1: we believe someone's life is an immediate fear of danger,
29:39
Speaker 1: we're going to go there. We'll sign someone that that
29:41
Speaker 1: person twenty four hours a day, so we're not going
29:43
Speaker 1: to let any harm come to anybody, and to go
29:45
Speaker 1: back to your question about how much he was supposed
29:48
Speaker 1: to pay him five thousand dollars, he could only come
29:50
Speaker 1: up with three. Well, I guess he better get right
29:52
Speaker 1: back to them all with all those baby tiger cubs. Guys,
29:55
Speaker 1: this guy did not make it a secret. He publicly
29:58
Speaker 1: called for Carol Baskin, victim in this case head in
30:01
Speaker 1: a jar. Well, that was not lost on a jury.
30:05
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at News nine Oklahoma City,
30:08
Speaker 1: Sylvia Corkuel. We told you that he could take some
30:11
Speaker 1: time in order for the jury to come back with
30:13
Speaker 1: its verdict, seeing that there were nineteen counts. Ever, after
30:17
Speaker 1: just three short hours, nearly four hours, a jury came
30:20
Speaker 1: back finding Joseph Maldonado Passage guilty on all nineteen counts.
30:25
Speaker 1: Two of those largest ones were the alleged use of
30:27
Speaker 1: interstate commerce for murder for hire. They found him guilty
30:31
Speaker 1: on those two charges. Remember one of them, he was
30:35
Speaker 1: found guilty of paying an individual three thousand dollars in
30:38
Speaker 1: order to commit that murder, a former employee, and he
30:42
Speaker 1: was also accused of trying to pay an undercover FBI
30:46
Speaker 1: agent money as well, though that money never exchanged hands.
30:49
Speaker 1: The jury did find him guilty of those charges as
30:52
Speaker 1: far as the rest of those charges are concerned something
30:54
Speaker 1: that defense called paper crime, seeing that many of them
30:58
Speaker 1: were what he considered to be citations. The jury also
31:01
Speaker 1: found him guilty on all of those charges, all of
31:04
Speaker 1: them surrounding animal crimes, the transport of these animals crime stories.
31:23
Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace, we are talking about the now conviction
31:28
Speaker 1: of the so called Tiger King muldonno passage shrivil a
31:34
Speaker 1: lot of different names. But remember not just the hit
31:37
Speaker 1: on Carol Baskin that he forked over thousands to get
31:40
Speaker 1: a rival murdered. He hated her in a long time
31:44
Speaker 1: grudge match, but also for killing tigers, for killing his
31:50
Speaker 1: tigers allegedly to make room for more profitable animals. Nine
31:56
Speaker 1: counts of that as well. But you know, you'd think
31:59
Speaker 1: that his conviction would be the end of the story.
32:02
Speaker 1: But it's not. The Fat Lady. The Fat Lady hasn't
32:06
Speaker 1: sung yet. Take a listen to our friends at Netflix.
32:10
Speaker 1: What a story. It's so wild, it must not be true.
32:15
Speaker 1: That's the first thing people think. Oh, come on, that
32:18
Speaker 1: can't be true. It's twenty years ago, cold case. Twenty
32:21
Speaker 1: year old murders, don't get solved. Well, it all starts,
32:27
Speaker 1: you know Kale Kale Baskin, who was Kale Lewis at
32:31
Speaker 1: the time, was married to Don Lewis. Oh, but I
32:35
Speaker 1: did see Don Lewis about maybe a month or so
32:38
Speaker 1: before he disappeared, and he didn't mention to me that
32:43
Speaker 1: he felt his life was in danger. There are so
32:48
Speaker 1: many strange twists in that story you would have to
32:52
Speaker 1: write books, volumes, and the stuff that went wrong there,
32:55
Speaker 1: the lives that are there, all the circumstantial evidence. Somebody
33:00
Speaker 1: and something too, Dona. There's a lot of stories about
33:04
Speaker 1: Carol having some finger into it, but nobody can prove it.
33:08
Speaker 1: In the last hours, the investigation into the disappearance of
33:12
Speaker 1: Carol Baskin's husband has been reopened. Why and let me
33:20
Speaker 1: stay at the get go. She has not been named
33:22
Speaker 1: a suspect or a person of interest in her husband's disappearance.
33:28
Speaker 1: First of all, you just heard about quote circumstantial evidence.
33:34
Speaker 1: Take a listen one more time to our friends at Netflix.
33:38
Speaker 1: Jack don Lewis was last seen on August the eighteenth.
33:43
Speaker 1: He was reported missing on the nineteenth by his wife
33:46
Speaker 1: at about one thirty in the afternoon. The detectives walked
33:49
Speaker 1: the property and drove the property. Now you talking about
33:52
Speaker 1: forty acres. Apparently there was nothing there that suggested that
33:55
Speaker 1: they should pursue that area any further. Were aerial searches done,
34:02
Speaker 1: we found nothing. Then after three or four days, we
34:09
Speaker 1: found his van abandoned at an airport with the key
34:14
Speaker 1: still in it, his briefcase in it, but no Don Lewis.
34:18
Speaker 1: And it didn't make sense, like with what he said
34:22
Speaker 1: to me, if you was truly wanting to disappear and
34:24
Speaker 1: nobody know where you was at, would you leave your
34:27
Speaker 1: van where you got in a plane to take off,
34:29
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want nobody to know you was in the plane,
34:31
Speaker 1: because that's now a clue. Do you think it was planted?
34:35
Speaker 1: I think someone else drove the van there. I don't
34:38
Speaker 1: know if it was planted there, straight out to New
34:41
Speaker 1: York Post investigative reporter Michael Kaplan, Who is Don and
34:47
Speaker 1: when did he go missing? He is the first husband
34:51
Speaker 1: of Carol Baskin and he went missing in it was
34:56
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven, and he you know. She claims that
35:02
Speaker 1: he had apparently he had tried to get a restraining
35:04
Speaker 1: order on her. She claims he had Alzheimer's they were,
35:08
Speaker 1: you know, not doing great as a couple apparently, and
35:12
Speaker 1: he was supposed to go on a trip to Central
35:14
Speaker 1: America or South America, and his car was found at
35:18
Speaker 1: the airport and he basically disappeared into thin air. He
35:21
Speaker 1: was never heard from again, and he was apparently quite wealthy.
35:25
Speaker 1: Trying to take in everything that you are telling me,
35:28
Speaker 1: It's like drinking from a fire hydrant. Michael Calvin joining me,
35:31
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, New York Post, my number one favorite newspaper
35:35
Speaker 1: in the world. Michael, interesting that last thing you said
35:39
Speaker 1: he was very, very wealthy. You know, it seems to me.
35:42
Speaker 1: Sheriff Chad Kronister, our special guest, joining me, the elected
35:46
Speaker 1: sheriff of Hillsborough County, Florida, where Carol Baskin's animal sanctuary
35:53
Speaker 1: was house. Sheriff. It seems to me the first thing
35:56
Speaker 1: you try to do is pull up surveillance video from
36:00
Speaker 1: the parking deck at the airport and check airplane manifest
36:05
Speaker 1: do you know. I don't know if you were sheriff
36:06
Speaker 1: at that time, but was that done at the time
36:09
Speaker 1: or was it believed he just took off so there's
36:11
Speaker 1: no reason to investigate. And I wasn't sheriff at the time.
36:15
Speaker 1: I've been here twenty eight years as a deputy. But
36:17
Speaker 1: even back then, we did check that we checked all
36:20
Speaker 1: passenger manifests. Nothing showed up for some reason. And I
36:23
Speaker 1: don't completely understand why he had two passports. Neither one
36:27
Speaker 1: of them were flagged as he left the country as well,
36:30
Speaker 1: so even raising even greater Wait a minute, you said
36:33
Speaker 1: two passports. Were they in the same name or did
36:36
Speaker 1: he have an alias? He had an alias, so it
36:38
Speaker 1: was under two different names. Is it with all these
36:41
Speaker 1: people having aliases? Okay, so he has two passports that
36:44
Speaker 1: you know all, but the fact that he's got two,
36:46
Speaker 1: one with the real name, one with an alias. Was
36:49
Speaker 1: it an alias or was it another derivation of his name?
36:53
Speaker 1: Like I guess I could be Nancy Grace or Nancy
36:56
Speaker 1: Lynch or Nancy Grace Lynch. I mean, was it a
37:00
Speaker 1: derivation of his real name or was it really a
37:03
Speaker 1: fake name on that second passport? Sheriff. Yeah, the easier
37:07
Speaker 1: the changing up. Don Lewis Donald is his middle name,
37:10
Speaker 1: so one was Jack, one was Don Lewis going by
37:13
Speaker 1: two different names. Is Jack part of his real name?
37:15
Speaker 1: It is? It's it's it's his real first name. Everyone
37:18
Speaker 1: went he went by, he went by his middle names, Donald,
37:21
Speaker 1: he went by Don. Okay, and no suggestion that there
37:24
Speaker 1: was a third passport, or was there? I mean, you know,
37:27
Speaker 1: when you don't know a horse, Cheryl McCollum, you know
37:29
Speaker 1: the rest of that. Look at the trick record. He's
37:31
Speaker 1: already got two passports, one first name one using second
37:34
Speaker 1: name is primary name. But still airport surveillance should show something. Um,
37:42
Speaker 1: what do you make of it's Cheryl McCollum. What do
37:43
Speaker 1: we have to go on? Well again, Nancy, this is
37:46
Speaker 1: a private airport, so it's a smaller airport. It's not
37:50
Speaker 1: like he'd, you know, pulled into Hartsfield. Um this case,
37:53
Speaker 1: whoa wait? You mean we're chartered planes, correct, and no
37:58
Speaker 1: regular carries carriers like Delta or Southwestern, JetBlue, nothing like that.
38:04
Speaker 1: Craig didn't need a ticket, Michael Caplan, you didn't tell
38:07
Speaker 1: me that. Hello, I mean you can hop on a
38:10
Speaker 1: private plane with your library card for Pete's sake. That's true,
38:14
Speaker 1: that's true, spanky, spanky, Michael Caplan. But wait a minute,
38:19
Speaker 1: here's another facet to the whole private plane. There are
38:23
Speaker 1: so many less people they would know who came through
38:28
Speaker 1: their IFB that day. They I mean, they're like little offices.
38:33
Speaker 1: You park your car here, you go into a little office,
38:35
Speaker 1: and the plane's right there. They would know if they
38:38
Speaker 1: were shown a photo, wouldn't they, Shriff Sheriff Carnister, if
38:42
Speaker 1: that person under whatever name was shown up with a
38:45
Speaker 1: library card or a fake passport, wouldn't they Shareff, you're
38:48
Speaker 1: you're one hundred percent correct. No one recognized them. You
38:51
Speaker 1: have to remember two, we're back in nineteen ninety seven.
38:53
Speaker 1: There was no surveillance video. We weren't that high tech.
38:56
Speaker 1: There was no GPS, there was no cell phone, There
39:00
Speaker 1: was no technological advancements that would have helped us today.
39:03
Speaker 1: But again check and even private planes have to declare,
39:07
Speaker 1: especially going out of the country, who's all that passenger
39:10
Speaker 1: manifest there? There was none, no planes that he chartered
39:13
Speaker 1: her anyways, anyone else chartered that had his name under
39:16
Speaker 1: either of those two names? J and say leaving the
39:19
Speaker 1: country during that during the time period his disappearance Sheriff chronist.
39:23
Speaker 1: Or is it true that the disappearance of Carol Baskins
39:27
Speaker 1: then husband has been reopened as an investigation? Well, it's
39:31
Speaker 1: it's always been open let me just clarify that a
39:33
Speaker 1: cold case is always open, but when you run in
39:35
Speaker 1: a dead end. The last thing we did was back
39:37
Speaker 1: in twenty eleven, and I know I'm going to get
39:39
Speaker 1: off face, was when we asked her to come in
39:41
Speaker 1: and take a polygraph and she declined. And the year
39:44
Speaker 1: before we took DNA samples from all Don Lewis's children
39:49
Speaker 1: in case that body was ever recovered, it would be
39:51
Speaker 1: interned in database when we would be able to track
39:53
Speaker 1: it back that way to Cheryl McCollum, what's the theory
39:58
Speaker 1: and again, Carol back skin, it's not a poy person
40:01
Speaker 1: of interest or suspect. What's the theory? What's the Scuttlebut
40:05
Speaker 1: out there from the show, the scuttlebutt is Carol killed
40:08
Speaker 1: him and fed him to a tiger for insurance or
40:13
Speaker 1: so that you know, he wouldn't take the retrain order
40:15
Speaker 1: out against her and he wouldn't leave her because he
40:18
Speaker 1: was wealthy. But again, what the sheriff is going to
40:20
Speaker 1: have to do is start from ground zero. If there's
40:23
Speaker 1: a way to pull the number on one tap, if
40:25
Speaker 1: there's a way to look at her statements now versus
40:28
Speaker 1: the statements that she made on the show. Did she
40:31
Speaker 1: put up flowers? Did she look for him? Did she
40:34
Speaker 1: call the first wife and beg for help? Did she
40:37
Speaker 1: call the daughters and say, I cannot find your dad.
40:41
Speaker 1: When did he go missing? Versus when did she reporting
40:44
Speaker 1: He's got to build this whole case from ground zero. Well,
40:47
Speaker 1: here's the deal, Cheryl McCollum, The love of money the
40:52
Speaker 1: root of all evil. On the other hand, this theory
40:57
Speaker 1: that she killed him and fed him to tigers, that
40:59
Speaker 1: sounds like my last book, Murder in the Courthouse, where
41:03
Speaker 1: I don't want to give it away, but I will
41:05
Speaker 1: tell you this. Somebody got hot dogs stuff down their
41:08
Speaker 1: pants and pushed into the pool at Gator World, so
41:12
Speaker 1: into the water. Now you'll have to read it to
41:14
Speaker 1: find out the rest. But this sounds like some fantastical
41:19
Speaker 1: plot somebody made up. You know what. There's got to
41:22
Speaker 1: be more than just rumors, in uendo, gossip and scuttle butt.
41:26
Speaker 1: And again, she is not a suspect, she is not
41:29
Speaker 1: a person of interests. But I would like to know
41:32
Speaker 1: what happened to that husband. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
41:36
Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,