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Self Care and Burnout? · Brilliant Minds?

• Andrea: Good morning, afternoon, wherever you're listening from, and welcome back to Brilliant Minds, where we are two licensed therapists, but we are not your therapist. And we're back with a regular episode today talking about some things that we kind of talked on and off with our guests. But first, why is your hair curly today? Olivia: This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. Olivia: yeah, so yeah, let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm a very different person now because I have figured out that the curling iron is my bitch and now I'm better than everyone else. So I just want to get you all updated on that. I figured out how my curling iron works after, you know, I don't know, years of having I committed about two weeks of trying the heatless curls. I would like to call them loveless curls because ⁓ I know how other people get their hair curly from them. Out of ⁓ six different I tried, only one of them worked and I have no idea why it worked over the other times I did it. Andrea: I love this. ⁓ no. Olivia: And I don't want to hear like, ⁓ you actually have to use like this kind of sock and actually it's this method. Like, I have my curling iron and I'm better, so it's fine. ⁓ Here we are. Andrea: You know what? We could put heat on our hair. It's fine. We're millennials. Olivia: It's basically the only heat I ever put on my hair. Andrea: ⁓ to straighten my hair every day in high school. Look at this. What is this? ⁓ are we? ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, I was the same. My hair is pin straight and I used to straighten it too. Like what on earth was that achieving? Also, that was during the time when I would wash my hair every day. Andrea: Right, Same. Hmm, I'm gonna write this down. This might have to be for our rabbit trail episode. Olivia: Right. Like, what a circus. ⁓ like, ⁓ yeah, Yeah, let's... are we talking about today? Andrea: something that we talked to both Norma about and our other guests that you guys will see soon is burnout and self-care. And so we thought we'd spend a little bit of time today, like talking about ⁓ what that has looked like for us, or ⁓ maybe we have some, I was thinking like tips or skills or things for people who are neurodivergent and self-care, because I think that those things look very different for neurodivergent people. Olivia: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Especially if you have the mental or physical restlessness side, self-care. think just by nature has to look different, right? Like, eee. ⁓ your mind has to be stimulated enough to be able to relax but not overstimulated, which is a really fun balance to strike for anyone out there that has actually tried to strike that balance. Andrea: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. You know, as I was thinking about this topic, I actually wrote down a question, and it was like, burnout actually avoidable? Olivia: Yeah. Hmm, that's a good question. I hadn't really thought about it in that way. Andrea: And maybe there's more nuance to that question, right? Because I know that when we have talked about it in the past, we've kind of talked about this idea of there being stages of it where there's kind of like the beginning, the middle, and the kind of advanced stages. And maybe the beginning stage is not avoidable, but maybe the more advanced stages are. I don't know. I think it's interesting to think about is it even a thing we can avoid, or is it something maybe especially neurodivergent people have to experience? Olivia: Yeah. Yeah, and it also makes me think about maybe the different types of Brno. I think when ⁓ think about Brno, and ⁓ I think about Brno, I usually equate it to being about ⁓ ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: But burnout could look like a lot of different things. Like I was thinking about this idea, like it came up, was it last week or this week? I can't remember exactly, but I think if you expand the definition of like what burnout is and what it can look like, I think people that are neurodivergent are burning out all the time in the sense of the ADHD person who picks up a hobby for two to three months and then loses complete interest or burns out on it and moves on to something else. Like I think that there are... Andrea: Hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: different versions of it and I think that there are different severities of it and also I think it could be even like more broadly applied than how we use it now. Yeah. Andrea: Yeah, yeah. And I think under those stages, that makes a lot of sense too, right? With the beginning stages and the advanced stages, the type of burnout you experience, there's all these different, like, could probably build this crazy little map of what type of burnout do we have, yes or no, right? ⁓ stage are you in? Because there's very normal burnout, like you're saying, like getting the ick is like. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: under an umbrella of kind of the burnout thing, right? Developing that ick or that being bored with a hobby. But then there's also like what I described last week of taking a literal eight minute nap between meetings because your body needs that reset, right? Like, physical ailment burnout, like. Olivia: That's still so wild to me. I want you to know that became my Roman Empire for a little bit of like... man, just like, is this seven minute nap-worthy feeling or like... Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: Wild. Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean, I had to just answer it right off the top without getting into the nitty gritty, ⁓ would say that I don't think burnout is avoidable. However, I think we can continue to learn from what burnout looks like for us and how we recover from it, improve what we learn from it. change it, make it less intense over time. I think we work with it, but I don't know if I would say we can avoid it. Andrea: Yeah, I mean, I think I would ditto that 100 % because I mean, for me, I think I had to learn burning out. Like I think I learned what my boundaries were for myself with work. I think I learned how to develop structure through burnout with myself. I think I learned like acceptance through burnout too of like, especially the hobby and interest driven type of burnout where I'm like, ⁓ I just like. Olivia: Mm. Andrea: I'm just gonna move on from coloring for a little while. There is a level of acceptance that I've learned through that, so I think that's interesting way to think about it for sure, is like, it's not all bad and ⁓ something that can come out of it, even though it might feel like the darkest pits of your life in that moment. Olivia: Yeah, I think it, I think that's how I would kind of reframe it too of I think burnout can remind you in an unfortunate way of what's important to you and like why you're doing what you're doing. was thinking about burnout and relationship to work. And I was thinking about, cause we talked a little bit with a different, like our guests that we've had on the podcast now about Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: how we recognize burnout for ourselves and all that. And I was thinking about it and it's like, we are both so fortunate and privileged to be doing work that we really love. That is like important to us, it's in line with our values, but there's just like that we love to do. And I think the biggest gauge I lean on when I think about burnout for myself is how much am I feeling dread when I go to work? Like it's the feeling of dread. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: But I had imagined for somebody else that doesn't necessarily feel called to what they do or love what they do or what they do is just kind of a function of having to be human and pay for things and all that. That their feeling of dread is probably not a good marker for if they're burnout or not. And I just thinking about like the privilege that is for like you and me of we like love what we do and it makes burnout different for us. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, and that feeling of dread is maybe a sign of just like, hey, we need to take a rest or like take a, you know, take a step back. And where for other people, I think you and I both have probably experienced this with clients throughout the years, but it's like, well, what does this burnout mean? Right? Is this like, you got to switch careers burnout? Is this, you got to take a vacation burnout? Is this something very different? And that's always a really interesting. consideration because just like you're saying, if you really truly love your job, that might not be the answer. And I think that a lot of us have been raised, raised that way of like, ⁓ if you're burning out, that means you just don't love your job, right? Or you just don't love what you're doing. And it's like, well, you can still burn out like, like motherhood. I like, I'm sure you can burn out from being a mom or a parent and you can't really just like give up on that. You know, you can't move on and not be a parent. Like you could. Olivia: Yeah. Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Andrea: You could, but that's real fucked up. Olivia: Yeah, I burn out on parenting at about 4.15 every weekday. Andrea: You Well, that leads me to a good question for you is like, ⁓ your experience with burnout? Like have you experienced job burnout? Do you experience it mostly with parenting? Like what is your experience? Olivia: Hmm. I feel like my experiences of burnout and work are... think at the end of the day, they're not that bad. I was in it, ⁓ ⁓ my first job in nonprofit, I was definitely feeling more burnt out. I was having a lot more dread the structure that I was in. It wasn't the work, I loved the work. But ⁓ the that I was in really weighed on my mind ⁓ after. Andrea: Okay. Olivia: I got home and generally I would say like once I'm done with work, I don't really think about work like occasional thought here and there fine. But like the frustrations of work really continue to build and like spill over into other parts of my life where I felt like I needed to process a lot of it. I think it's fine to process your feelings. But once it gets to a certain point, it's like, okay, well, clearly there's something off. So I think that's what my burnout looked like then. And then burnout in my old job. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: I definitely think it was just like, I don't know. You the saying ⁓ that road to hell is paved with good intentions? ⁓ And me that kind of elicits this idea of a slow burn, which is I don't think I recognize that I was burnt out in my old job because I... Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: I did take things on and I, I was, it was very voluntary and I cared about it. Good intentions, right? Um, and it wasn't until I stepped away that it was like, oh yeah, like I just wasn't, I wasn't taking as good of care of myself in like a professional way as I should have like talked about in the podcast before like taking lunches or like blocking off times for myself Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: I didn't really realize it talking about it now. How much my frustrations with work, I would need to process it outside of work. And I think that's another like big sign for me. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: But in terms of parenting, I don't feel like I experience really huge feelings of burnout, but I definitely experience these like tiny like episodes of burnout of just like, again, about 4 or 15 every day when I'm making dinner and then usually making a separate dinner for my child and ⁓ dogs ⁓ to play because everyone's in the house now and everyone's done with work and home. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: So they're more like barky or And then my daughter like wants to help me or be involved or wants my attention or harassing the dogs and like doesn't want my husband doing it. Like it's just, ⁓ it's yeah. 15 to five, just like ⁓ nobody to me. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah Right? Yeah. That makes sense. That makes sense. There's like a, your body's reached the limit, right? And you're just like, nope, no more gas. I'm literally burning out the tank and like, I'm dead. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ But I can't think of any big moments. It's just a lot of small like, ⁓ get this over with, please. Andrea: I mean... rape. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, to gas you up a little bit, something that I've noticed with you from like, well, and some background here, if any of you guys don't know, Olivia and I were co-directors at our last job together and have been through the trenches at this job. And that is why we are where we are now. what I've noticed is like, I've ⁓ and granted we've spent so much more time together, but I've seen so much more of you come out in your work and like, so much more joy kind of coming back about being excited to work with clients and being excited to work with supervisees. I think I've seen that within myself too, switching from our job to where we are now ⁓ our old job to this new business is this, the joy is coming back. There's moments of waking up and being like, really don't wanna work today. And I think we talk about that every once in a while. ⁓ And a lot of that does come with like, Olivia: Mm. again. Yeah. Andrea: maybe just more stressful weeks when it comes to finances or, you know, stressful decision making or things like that. But we want to do that. And that is actually bringing us joy because then we can come back around and be like, ⁓ my God, we did this thing. We made this really big decision and we're doing this thing. Whereas in our old job, we would just be like, fuck this. Like, so like just it wouldn't go away. We wouldn't come back to like, ⁓ I'm so glad we're doing this thing. I can't like. Olivia: Yeah Andrea: I'm so excited I got to make that decision or hire this person. We lost that of at the end. We lost that excitement that we had. Olivia: Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because I had this thought the other day. I do feel a lot more free. I guess is the best way I could describe it. And I have this moment a week or two ago where I'm like, I am self disclosing so much more. With with everyone I work with just across the board right now, and it made me do kind of a little bit of a double take of like. Andrea: Mm hmm. Yeah. Mmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: am I like over sharing? Because that's such a like common experience for people that have And I, but when you say like that, like I agree, I think I think the pressure of the role I think was isolating in a lot of ways. And I think how I that pressure and how it came across is that I wasn't able to be as myself as I wanted to be with the people around me. think I did the best I could. It wasn't like I was disingenuous, but just that like, ⁓ I don't know. I just, didn't ⁓ as myself as I do now. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would totally agree with that. like, you know, my experience with burnout is pretty intense, I think I would say. Like, my job out of my like bachelor's degree was really, really intense. It was, you know, in-home ER care. And so I would like go to homes for people who are high ER utilizers. Olivia: which is, yeah. Andrea: So was like more than three ER visits in a month and I'd have to like go to their house and like track them down. And it was really intense and I burned out of that job very quickly too because I was like calling out because I was sick a lot. And like it comes out very somatically for me. So with my body, I end up getting like physically ill. And same with my next job, right? I was like. community mental health, was being told to see 60 clients on a weekly basis. Like, there's not enough time in the week to see 60 clients. Like, crazy. And same thing with the next job where I was promised less than that. And that was when I started taking those like eight minute naps between sessions because I needed to find space for my body. And then, ⁓ know, in this most recent job, over the last few years, I developed like a brain condition. ⁓ that players up with stress and chronic health issues that you and I both talk about a lot, but this brain one was the one where it was kind of like, something is not right. Like this is not okay. I can't keep putting my body through ⁓ this And after planning my wedding, I think it became very, very real where I was like, I need to figure something out. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: I can't keep putting my body through this stress to where my like brain literally feels like it wants to explode out of my head. Like I cannot keep doing this. Olivia: I that's a valid point because when I look back at these like different moments in time where I've transitioned from one job to the next or roles or whatever the case may be and then like looked back and been like, ⁓ yeah, I was actually kind of like burnt out a little bit. I mean, I also was like developing new conditions. Like I... my ice guy got really bad and that's when I started needing glasses. I didn't need glasses until I was like 27. Yeah, so yeah, so like I didn't need glasses until I was 27. It was like right at the end of my like non-profit role and then like in the last year at my non-profit role I like developed sciatica like really really bad. Andrea: ⁓ my gosh, I did not know that. Whoa. Olivia: And I just blame it because I was doing home visits like all over the county. So I was in the car driving like all the time and in the county that we live in, it's like super spread out and there's parts that are really rural. So I was in the car like all the time. And so just thought it was like the angle of the car, but it's like, was doing home visits all the time for like three years and never had that issue until like the last year. ⁓ So like, ⁓ I up that example of like, is it possible that if I wasn't feeling burnt out, I wouldn't have developed those things. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Potentially, but like, I don't know. Andrea: Right, or maybe not as early. Right, like I don't know. I think ⁓ concept of a flare-up too is interesting, because I know when I get stressed I like experience more headaches and vision issues and things like that. But it is like, would I have still had this experience? I don't know. And maybe that's kind of where I loop back around to. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Andrea: I've learned a lot about myself having had gone through some pretty intense physical burnout and learned about like, like you and I talk all the time about what our work schedule limits are. And we're both like, we do not work on Fridays. Like that is, that is our limit. I do not work. I do not see clients on Thursdays. I will sometimes see supervisees, but only if I'm feeling up to it. Like, And that is because I've learned so much about what my body needs and how much capacity I have, right? Like I only see three clients in a row because if I see four, just like barely lose it a little bit at the end. yeah, scheduling and lunches, all those. Olivia: Yeah, so true. I used to have this in our old job where I would on that were particularly stressful, my eye would start to twitch. And that's when I immediately I'd be like, okay, ⁓ I am stressed and I need to take a second. That was like my immediate like, ⁓ my eye is twitching. ⁓ okay, let's take a moment. Yeah, I look back and I mean, even too, the job we met in ⁓ Andrea: Ha ha ha! Olivia: Gosh, I transitioned from my nonprofit job where I was like really burning out. And also like I recognized that it was not for me and I was looking for a job for like almost up to a year, but I was like really picky about where I was gonna go, what I was gonna do. So I was two months into the job and I got pregnant after like years and years and years of trying. And so I bring that up not because I wanna hear from people of like, see, you just need to like. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Manage your stress and then it'll just like happen. You'll just get pregnant because you manage your stress Do not say that to anyone trying to have a child Literally do anything else instead like I will scoop out your eyeballs with a fork If you say that to be like, it's so fresh So I bring it up not because I think that that was the ticket I was like, ⁓ I just like less stressed and now all of a sudden I'm pregnant after years No, ⁓ don't think that's the case. However, I don't think it hurt either So Andrea: Yeah. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, I think that makes total sense. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and then around that time COVID started too. So like, you know, there was a little bit of that, but then also we went back into weird stressful world time. Olivia: from pregnancy to eye twitch. Yeah. Yeah, so it's not exactly like it was a stress-free time, but from a work sense, was significantly Definitely better. ⁓ Yeah, I mean, you mentioned the work burnout. I was going to bring up because it made me think about it, because I haven't really intense, I don't think, feelings of burnout. I can usually tell when a role isn't right for me anymore of like, it's something's not working. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ for sure. Mm. Olivia: can usually just kind of tell because vibes. ⁓ But I will say like educationally, by the end of my masters, I was completely, absolutely like utterly burnt out, just like done, done, done, done, done. And so I think working was such a relief at that point because I didn't have to like do assignments. was like, ⁓ thank God. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ for real. Olivia: that I think that's probably where I experienced the most burnout in my life is from school itself, like getting through college and then getting through my masters. My masters wasn't too bad, but my bachelor's was an absolute nightmare to get through. Andrea: Yeah, same. It was like, I don't know. And maybe it's because the masters we were just more passionate about. was definitely more excited to be learning about counseling. I mean, ⁓ know my program is different, but I was definitely more driven and ready to be like, ⁓ I can do counseling right now. And I can do mock sessions. This is really fun. Where my bachelor's was like, ⁓ god, I have to take another German class? Olivia: What's with that? Andrea: Fun fact, technically I have two minors, one in German and one in art history, but I never graduated with those degrees, so... Olivia: Yeah, do you want to hear the minor I almost had and I didn't have it by like one class? ⁓ Andrea: Yes. Yes. Olivia: Biblical studies. Yeah. Andrea: ⁓ that makes sense. That tracks for you. Olivia: Yeah, well, OK, my masters was easy in my opinion, because just like the program wasn't as rigorous ⁓ I felt a lot less pressure to do well because in my bachelors, I knew I needed to get my masters like that. That was my goal. I knew I needed to go for it. It was on my mind. It's what I wanted to do. And I might I'm like, I need to get good grades so can get into a good master's program. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: But in a master's program, I don't give a fine hoot about a PhD. So it doesn't matter what, I just need a pass, right? Like the pressure internally was just completely different, but also just like the program really wasn't that rigor, like it wasn't that intense. It was an online program. And I'm not trying to say online programs are not intense. I'm just saying that like back in 2016, literally like 10 years ago, a one year master's program, like it isn't that serious. So. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. No, same. I got my master's online too and it was like intense in some ways, but it was like, I think there was just more interest and drive, which is something that I'm learning is neurodivergent, right? Is that like, we are so interest driven. We are so like, this is in my best interest. So I'm gonna do, it may not be our best work, but we're gonna do the work because we're actually like into it. We're actually enjoying that. And that's something now too with like, Olivia: Yeah. there. Andrea: building this business that I feel so much more settled and grounded in and a lot less like dready is that like, I'm just excited and interested in what we're doing. And in my last jobs, like I think our last job, I was really interested in really liked what we were doing, but the end goal didn't, wasn't quite right, right? Like the end goal of what we were doing wasn't really what we were interested in or what we wanted. Olivia: Thank Andrea: And now it is. And then the previous job, was the same thing where it was just like the only interest that there was in that job for me at that time was like, get licensed. Like see these clients get licensed, right? And there's a burnout experience with that that's different and unique where it's like, I just want to get licensed so I can move on to the next bigger and better thing for myself. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. And be honest, ⁓ much of it can be financially motivated of when you get licensed, not only does that open more doors for you in terms of the ⁓ and positions that you can go for, but you get paid more generally, or you should get paid more. And so, ⁓ I think there's a total push to do it. And, you know, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: this is where I'm going to highlight how my license is better than everyone's, is because when I was getting my license, uh, in this day, I was still having to do 4,000 hours instead of 3,000 like everyone else. And so I had to have my associates for at least three years before I could get my license. Now you can do it in like two and, and it's actually doable in two and three, like three years, 4,000 hours. It's like diabolical. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: Now they don't have that, which I'm really grateful for, but I really felt like I went through the wringer. By like the third year, was so done. I so done. I hated it. I was just like, why? Why do we need 4,000 hours? Like, know, I already know we're better than everyone. Why do I need to do an extra thousand hours to prove it? Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hahaha Olivia: Oh my goodness. This kind of leads me to a somewhat related question, because we're also going to be talking about self-care. Because I was thinking about this, and I feel like, because we referenced earlier that self-care for people that are neurodivergent does look a little bit different or can look a little bit different, and sometimes needs to look different. But I often see, and I feel this sometimes myself, neurodivergent if people feel guilty about. Andrea: It's It's true. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Mmm. Olivia: what they use for self care. So I was going to ask you, what self care do you do that you feel like sometimes guilty about? Andrea: Yeah. My gut really wanted to say like reading and like scrolling on my phone. Like just, or maybe like generally being vertical, horizontal, being horizontal. Olivia: I was like, vertical, where is this going? Andrea: Like being horizontal any type of self-care that I'm doing where I'm laying down or like on a couch Makes me feel guilty because I'm not and I preach this to my clients all the time. I don't have to produce anything I don't have to be productive to take care of myself but I like I'm feeling like Do not deserve to be laying here scrolling on my phone or I don't deserve to just be enjoying this book right now and I don't Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: I'm still kind of exploring where that thought and that feeling comes from, I think I know, but still diving into that is a challenge for me, but that's of the thing, is any situation where I am horizontal, I will wake up and I'll be like, what did I forget to do? Or I'll come out of it and be like, what did I forget to do? ⁓ my gosh, I forgot to do the dishwasher, or ugh, I have all these dishes in the sink still. There's all this shame that comes up after I am horizontal for even 10 minutes. Olivia: No, no, no. ⁓ noticed the same for myself. I like to call it the productivity monster. I feel like women with ADHD have the productivity like ⁓ in their brain and it just like... It's pesky one. ⁓ My husband might laugh at me for saying this, but I have really had to work at the exact thing that you're talking about that like if I have free time, that is okay to just... Andrea: Very. Olivia: do whatever, like I don't need to fill it with stuff. And you've been to my house, so you know that generally if I have free time, if I'm not really intentional about it, I will clean. Andrea: Truly. Mm-hmm. Olivia: because I like a clean house and when things are not in their place it bugs me and I organize and I clean and it just turns into this like ADHD little like powerhouse like I am the mitochondria I am the powerhouse of like the cell just like pew pew pew pew pew pew pew I worked more recently I would say like last six-ish nine-ish months of like when I have free time like letting myself have free time and like Andrea: Yeah. Olivia: One of my biggest things that I do for self care, which I think a lot of people have different opinions about, and I mentioned this on the podcast before, I play video games. And the greatest thing about it is that when my husband has free time, he just like games. He just does whatever. He doesn't think about like what needs to be done in the house or like what could be done in the house or like other things. He just like goes and spends his time. And so when I have free time, I'm like, do what he does. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: You don't need to do anything. You just go play games. It doesn't matter. It's okay. And when I actually like let myself do that thing, whatever it is, color, it like doesn't matter. I do feel so much better, but I have to like very intentionally be like, what would your husband do? He wouldn't worry about anything and he would sit on his butt and he would play a game and that's what you're gonna do. Yep. Yep. Andrea: you Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Yep. Yeah. ⁓ totally. I had to do the same thing too. I'm like, what would, what would my husband be doing right now if he had the free time? And it's like being horizontal. Like, yeah, this, this man loves to be horizontal and on the couch. Like it's kind of endearing, but like I struggle so much, even like this Sunday he was like, so what are we going to do today? And I was like, literally all I want to do is sit on the couch. Olivia: keep you laying on the couch. Yep. Andrea: and just like not do anything. That's what I said in the morning. And he goes, do you know yourself? like, you know that if you sit here all day, horizontal on the couch, you're gonna get up halfway through the day and pace because you're gonna be antsy that you're not being productive. And I was like, God it, way to me out. ⁓ Olivia: You're like, I love being known, but I actually really hate it too. That's funny. Andrea: Right, exactly, exactly. And I was like, I know that, but I need the practice in order to be horizontal. Like I want to be able to be horizontal and I want to be able to do it. And we ended up like compromising and being like, okay, well, we'll be horizontal for half the day. And then the other half of the day we'll go out and get some sunshine. And that's what we did. And it ended up feeling pretty good. I was tired, but like sometimes I need to be tired in order to allow myself to be horizontal. Olivia: Mm. isn't that such a fun, ⁓ pickle? ⁓ I mean, I've never really directly asked you because I think I already know your perspective, ⁓ do you think playing video games counts as self-care? Andrea: Yeah. ⁓ huh. ⁓ yeah, totally. Olivia: Yeah, see, think so too, obviously. And I think that ⁓ is self-care that feels like the most guilty for me, or like I feel the weirdest about. ⁓ I that's like for a ⁓ wide of reasons where it's like, it's not inherently Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm. Olivia: productive necessarily, so that's like part of it internally that like the productivity monster does not like and like beach the drum against. But I think the other piece is that like socially spending your time playing video games is like it's coming around, but generally socially it's like papood like it's like like that's weird like that's you spend your time like are you a child and I'm like. Andrea: Right. Olivia: Maybe. Andrea: But then why is that okay for men? Olivia: But the thing is, I don't think it's as acceptable for them either. I think it's across the board. It's not as acceptable as an adult to spend your free time playing a video game. And I'm not really sure why. I think playing video games have been weaponized in really unfortunate ways. Because the other thing is I play pretty violent video games. They're not... Andrea: That's true. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. It's not Mario Kart. Olivia: Yeah, it's not like having a farm and taking care of it. Like, no, I'm like playing multiplayer and like to like squash some people. Like it's, ⁓ like, it's pretty violent. And I think that's the other thing is, is like that, that genre of video game generally gets in even worse, like bad rap. ⁓ and so that I feel like is a self care that I feel the most guilty about is that ⁓ Andrea: You Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: Like, I'm a therapist who plays violent video games in my, like, spare time. And I think it's self-care. Andrea: I mean, this is a topic for another day is this productivity monster, but also maybe video games and mental health and stuff. It'd be really interesting to deep dive with you on that because I totally disagree with the whole violent video games ⁓ violent people trope. And I won't dive into that too deep, but I've pissed off some parents with that with my teenage clients because I'm like, if this is literally supporting ⁓ Olivia: Mmm. Create violence, ⁓ totally. Andrea: your child or you as an adult's needs. Like, why are we, why are we poo pooing it? Why are we doing that? How is, how is playing a violent video game any different than reading smut? Right? Like the, the brain firings that you're probably getting is the same. Like Olivia: Great. Right, ⁓ oh yeah, I completely agree. Yeah, we could do a total like, like a mini episode or just like another episode about that. ⁓ the other self care that I think about for myself, and think this is the balance that we were talking about with Nour Divergent, people doing self care, is that like, ⁓ some work for different times. Is that a lotus? Andrea: Mm-hmm. No, it's a straight Red Bull. Olivia: That's the color for straight Red Bull? Andrea: Yep, this is what a red bull looks like. Olivia: Wow, I've either drank it out of a can or it's been like with other flavors, so I never realized that was the... Andrea: I didn't want to sit here with like a Red Bull can and be like... Olivia: Who cares? Andrea: This looks this looks prettier right now Olivia: It also looks like the like perfect ADHD like glass which is like It's like a really gentle rim, but it's thicker glass That's real. That is so real. I mean, I just I only have this Andrea: I have that. I have this on my list for our rabbit trail episode, so. Olivia: Okay, let's talk about it. So for instance, what I mean by that is like getting back to the self care thing is I really love baking, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: I don't necessarily like baking just for myself because usually when you bake, it's not like you're baking like a singular thing, right? It's like enough to feed. Yeah, right. Like you're making a cake. It's not like a mug cake. Get out of here. part of it is that like, I'm not going to bake if it's just usually for me. And really like baking and it feel maybe like ⁓ more overstimulating depending on Andrea: Right, you bake a batch, yeah. Olivia: the like circumstance in which I'm baking it, if that makes sense. So like sometimes it's self care or like trying a new recipe. Like I love to do that. And I think that is a version of self care for me. But if that recipe doesn't go well, it's not self care. ⁓ like even just like the capacity to try a new recipe. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was just gonna say, you to kind of measure out for yourself, what do I have the capacity to do today? ⁓ I need to just bake to feel better or do I need to bake to ⁓ something new? do I have, yeah, and do I have the capacity to be frustrated with that right now? Which I will say is one of those advanced neurodivergent things in a way, and I think ⁓ probably do that because we're therapists, but. Olivia: Right. produce a thing. Yeah. Andrea: So anybody that's neurodivergent and wants to know more about your self care, evaluate what capacity you have for the self care activity you are about to engage in. Olivia: absolutely. Because baking is one of those things that I love. And I both of us really have a good habit, but also really recognize how helpful it is for us to just exercising and being active. ⁓ I think no matter how much capacity I think I have, ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: exercising always helps me as a self-care thing. And it feels like really gross and like influencer-y to say, just like exercise and that's my self-care. Lifting weights, like I just spice up curl and I feel better. It's like... Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. right Well, I think what you're touching on is this other idea of self-care of like there is intentional day-to-day self-care, like taking care of yourself and doing the things that you need to survive. And then there's the other type of self-care that's like, ⁓ I'm really tired today. I just need to like lay on the couch or like I need to do something that brings me joy because I've had a really stressful week. Like I think society and especially social media has framed self-care in particular as like Olivia: Mm-hmm. Andrea: ⁓ we got to go to the spa and get a facial or get our nails done. And that's like, that is self care that can be self care. But also self care is showering, feeding yourself breakfast, lunch and dinner, working out, right? Like taking care of your body, drinking water, which I'm not good at doing. This is actually a liquid IV. Thank you very much. ⁓ Olivia: Drinking water. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Also, I have a general bone to pick with the idea that getting your nails done is self care because you cannot sit here and tell me that sitting in an uncomfortable chair where you have to like lean forward Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: to have your nails done and you can't really do anything else because you get enough questions asked that you can't really like do anything except stare at the other people that are also getting their nails done. And then the stress of like making sure you understand the person and the questions that they're asking. And then you also have this like continued dilemma of is what they did actually what I like and do I need to ask them to do something different? Tell me how that is self care. Andrea: Yeah Yeah, that. Yeah. Olivia: Like I've gone through phases where I've gotten my nails done, but in no way would I call it taking care of myself. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. It does feel like a chore and like, rather than like, because there's another classification. Some chores are done to be self care, like taking a shower, but that is a chore that you're choosing to do. Olivia: nightmare. Yes. Well, I also hope you're choosing to take a shower, but yes. Yeah. Like another good example of this is like, um, not, I mean, more related to self care, not an example of like what people think is self care. And then like, it's actually a personal hell. Um, I had a long couple of days with my little one. Um, and like, so flipping tired, but because I had been with her majority of the time. Andrea: I mean, ⁓ Mm-hmm. Right. Olivia: She just like out of proximity wanted me for all of the things. And by Sunday I was just like, listen, I've been feeling the impulse to go shop. I'm going to go do that. I'm going to target not anything for anything really specific except for a soap dispenser because my daughter broke her third soap dispenser. And do you know how hard, okay. Do you know how hard it is to find a not glass? Andrea: Right. So many questions. Olivia: Soap dispenser. Really hard anyways, moving on. so I was like, you know, I'm going to go shopping. I'm going to go shopping by myself and going to let Target and TJ Maxx tell me ⁓ what buy. And like to me, that was like perfect self care. But. But I also recognize that, sometimes going out, not what I want to do, sometimes going out to a store on a weekend when there's a bunch of other people, also not what I want to do. ⁓ Andrea: Mm. Ugh. That's like peak self care. Right. Mm-hmm. Olivia: And sometimes going out to a store without a goal in mind is also sometimes not what I want to do. And so it's another like example of, ⁓ what do I actually want to like, what, do I want to do and have the capacity for in this moment? And it was glorious. yeah. Andrea: Yeah, this might be really like therapisty for me to say, but like I've worked with a couple people who have created, I think I learned about it as like a dopamine menu, but I've kind of reframed it for a lot of people as a self-care menu, where it is like in order to build that skill of what do I have the capacity for, where is my head space today, it's kind of this like evaluate that. Olivia: Hmm. ⁓ okay. Mm-hmm. Andrea: And then here's a list of your self-care things that you can do that don't take away from your capacity. And then here's a list of self-care things that add to your capacity or that like you might need a little more capacity to do. like having those kind of classified is really helpful where they can look at it and be like, actually, I think I just need to stay at home and engage in those self-care things because those all sound dreadful today. Or, you the reverse where it's like, Olivia: Right. Andrea: All those things seem really fun and those seem really boring and dreadful today. And evaluating that capacity can be really powerful and a way to create some balance in your life and fight that productivity monster and that burnout brain. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna tell you something that I haven't told you yet. Andrea: ⁓ Olivia: It's a surprise, but I'm going to tell you now instead of when I was originally planning to tell you. It's not that serious. It's not that serious. Okay. So I made jokes about this a lot on the podcast, the specific thing I'm about to say, but generally what I've been trying to be better about ⁓ I am like interested in something is to me like, ⁓ like I'm interested in that. Like, ⁓ I want to know more. Andrea: ⁓ no, okay. ⁓ okay. Okay. Olivia: instead of logging it away, like trying to be better about actually doing something about that and feeding my curiosity a little bit more. Because I find that between work and parenting and trying to figure out what on earth I'm doing for parenting and then what on I'm doing for work. My like, it's not that I'm not curious, because I'm still curious in a lot of ways, but I'm not, I don't feel like been feeding into it and in the ways that I want to. So. Andrea: Yeah. Mm. Right. Olivia: I was really curious about something I like, ⁓ saw a reel about it ⁓ it was this person and she recommended different books. And I one of the books ⁓ from library like a month and a half ago. I know, ⁓ nope. I I am 50 pages away from finishing the book. ⁓ I have Andrea: Hold on. You guys this is such a big deal Olivia: I know I have not read a book for fun or like pleasure or just like a pure interest in a topic probably since I read a Nancy Drew book when I was like eight, ten. Andrea: What is happening? Olivia: I know, I know it's been a grand experiment, which is why I haven't said anything because I like haven't wanted to jinx it. Because I've been like really intentional about like, OK, if I don't finish, I don't finish like it's OK. Like if I just like lose interest or like I don't have the time or whatever. Andrea: Right, right. Yeah, you're good. That's amazing! Olivia: I know. I'm like, as I'm getting closer and closer to the end, I've actually had this question pop up in my brain and I'm like, who is this? The question, yeah, I know. The question has been, what am I going to read next? Andrea: Yeah, who is who am I talking to? No. Olivia: I know. I know. I've actually transcended. Andrea: You're telling me! Olivia: Yeah, I know. I know. And I actually already tried to answer that question because I like, yeah, I know. like tried. There was a couple of books that looked interesting. I tried to find them through the library and they're not available. So I was kind of bummed. But like I actually, actually like potentially had a next book to read. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: I know. Andrea: Okay, I'm gonna feed into my curiosity. What was the book or what is the book that you're almost done with? Olivia: This is such a weird thing say out loud. It's not smut. It's not smut. ⁓ Andrea: I mean, have you seen my bookshelf? Olivia: I don't need to see it. I kind of already know. Andrea: Yeah, I'll have to share one with you later. Yeah, okay Olivia: So it's actually funny that we're talking about our minors that we didn't have. It's basically a book talking about the difficulty in translating the Bible. Andrea: Mm-hmm. ⁓ interesting. Olivia: And I just found that really interesting because I've never, I don't really know like anything about that topic, but also just like generally about translation. Like it talks a lot about just translation over time and history with like different works and different things and like cultural implications and like social implications and like. Andrea: Wow. Yeah. Olivia: all that. It's really, really interesting. And I've just like never read anything about it before. And I so I was like curious and I found the book. I had it like recommended by somebody that's like on social media that I really like. Who's religious, but also like very critical of religion, which I really appreciate. And so like I kind of trusted her opinion and I've been reading the book and yeah, it's super interesting. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Wow, Olivia reading a book and learning. Olivia: You didn't have to add learning! What a roast! Wow. I mean, that's fair. That's fair. But yeah, I was gonna like not tell you until I had like finished it to be like really have broken the curse. But I'm like 50 pages away. So like I actually I legitimately like think I'm gonna like I'm gonna finish it like right there. Andrea: Ha! Yeah. Yeah, 50 pages is not that far away from done, so. I love that, yay! Exploring new things, yeah. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. I know I'm doing it. Yeah, slowly but surely. mean, yeah, it's of those things where like, felt a little bit of shame for not being a reader, at least something. Like even if it wasn't for work or if it wasn't to learn, just like for pleasure, there's so many people that read. I'm like, ⁓ it's not I can't, but, ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I mean, I only became a reader last year. Like, last year was my first year reading, and I started it because... being on my phone was starting to really hurt my head and I was like, I need to do something. And have two very, very bookish friends who read like 100 books a year, it's insane. Yeah, it's And I will probably never get to their level, but I just asked each one of them to send me a book and they ⁓ literally me a book and it was ⁓ nice just be given something that was a surprise and to learn something new. That's been my kind of new. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: self-care for myself is like taking a break from screens and sounds and kind of immersing myself in that and it feels good and I know too like I'm not putting pressure on myself to read again like if I burn out from reading that's fine like Olivia: Mm. Right. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I think there's like two, a lot of other things motivating for me of I want my daughter to see that I read, you know, that like that is something that can be done. And it was funny because she asked me the other day, she's almost five and she came out in the morning because I read in the morning before she wakes up. So when she wakes up, I like I kind of like I show that I'm reading and then I like put it to the side on the table. And she was like, are you reading this? And I was like, yeah, she goes. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: but you're not saying it out loud. And I was like, ⁓ yeah, I'm reading it in my mind. She goes, what? Andrea: Aww. Oh-hooo. Olivia: And so then this morning when she saw me she goes, are the words in your brain right now mommy? I was like, yeah, I'm like reading it to myself. I can read the words in my mind. She goes, ⁓ Andrea: That's amazing. I love that. It's like teaching her that superpower in a way. That's so cool. ⁓ I love that you're bringing that up too, because it just reminds me. said this to parents before of like how important it is to show self care to your children. Olivia: You Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Andrea: Like that is something that really want to do if ⁓ have a family down the line is to make sure that like I'm showing my future family that I'm going to the gym, that I'm taking care of myself, that I like will engage in things for me. And when I do couples therapy with people who have kids too, it's like show that you're going out on dates. Like if you want to do that, go do stuff together, take care of yourself because it is... Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: We need to teach this next generation that it is okay to take care of yourself, to do things that bring you joy, to enjoy video games, to read a book or immerse yourself in something beautiful. ⁓ am passionate about moving that forward and changing that narrative that we have and especially the one that we've lived in of be productive and want to try to... Olivia: Right. Yeah. Andrea: teach the fact that burnout's going to exist, but if you can maintain your self-care and learn how to do that, that you can move through burnout effectively and without having a greater impact or scars left on your body. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, it's so true. I mean, that's why not all the time, but I am very intentional about exercising when my daughter's around so that she sees me exercising. I mean, that's for a large variety of reasons which I could get into at another time. You know, want her to see that I'm reading and generally when I play video games is when she's unconscious. However, Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: she does see that we play video games. I think that's like, I think it's really important for a variety of reasons because I think she needs to see that we can engage in something as like interesting or fun as video games and be able to pause and stop. And also like find healthy ways to engage in those video games, right? You know, like obviously I'm playing fairly violent video games. Like they're, you know, they're more like FPS based. I'm not saying that like, ⁓ it's my Andrea: Mm-hmm. First person shooter, people. Olivia: Yeah, sorry. But I'm not saying like, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ like killing the bad guys. I'm just like, ⁓ it's my team against the red team, right? Like ⁓ some of the, like we don't even say shoot, we say pew, which is I think is hilarious because she'd be like, mommy, you need to pew better. I'm like, yeah, girl, I know. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, and I've seen you guys, I've seen you play video games with her on your lap and it's the cutest thing. Like that little game with whatever his name is, Jeff, the little shark guy. And that was the cutest thing, because she just, doesn't, she's not like knowing that you're killing people, but like, she's just like, this is just so fun because you're this cute little shark, like jumping around this like world and there's colors and vibes, colors and vibes. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, rivals. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like the most competitive she gets is she'll be like, get them guys. Like that's, that's literally like the extent of her competitiveness. It's like, yeah. And so I think again, it's like, you said, it's important for your kids to see you taking care of yourself and like variety of ways. cause whenever I go and like do my own thing, like when I went shopping, I thought it was like, Andrea: and I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: by yourself and I was like, yeah girl, you but bye. Love you so much but see you later. Andrea: I need a moment. But this has been a fun, really good topic to get into. I think our experience together and our experience combined is an interesting one. I never thought I would say I was somewhat of an expert at burnout, but I feel like I'm becoming that a little bit, especially when it comes to normalizing it with neurodivergence and framing it differently for people. And then this piece of self-care and really being like, Olivia: Yeah. Hmm. Andrea: self-care is not what social media is saying, self-care is what you make it, and creating this all that, like, I love this topic and I feel like we could touch on it forever and ever and just keep going. But ⁓ has definitely been a good one. Olivia: I'm sure, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I liked it. Because self care has been a lot more on my mind, which is interesting. Like you've been thinking a little bit more about burnout. I've been thinking a little bit more about self care of like, how does it actually look different for people that are neurodivergent? And how do I need to change my language and how I'm presenting that? And like coping and Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: and self-regulation and and all that. I think it was a really good topic to hit it makes sense to combine two, Because I don't really like you can talk about one without the other. Andrea: Yeah, and neurodivergence is so prominent in our lives that couldn't talk about it without acknowledging it and without acknowledging that ⁓ is neurodivergent to some extent. I think everyone's along this spectrum, guess. ⁓ But it is like, ⁓ it's that serious, but it is that serious and created the way that you wanna create it. Olivia: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's not so serious, but it is important. Yeah, absolutely. Man, we actually contained ourselves. There were so many times where we almost went off track. Andrea: Right, exactly. I love it. I know. Olivia: I do feel them burning in my brain right now, but we caught ourselves. Andrea: I know, I know, we're getting real good at this. I just wanna throw it out there too, thank you to Olivia's neighbor. Olivia: Yeah, Sherry, Mochira, freaking awesome. Yeah. Andrea: I'm her. Sherry. Thank you so much, Sherry, for our new intro outro music. I don't know if you guys noticed the slow transition with that lately, but I just wanted to put an actual shout out on the podcast for her for being so amazing and creating kind of our little playlist into a theme song for us. So thank you, Sherry. I'll put her Instagram on the show notes and please go check her out. Olivia: Yeah, she's an actual queen, composing, playing, singing. she does it all. She is so cool. So definitely check her out. Andrea: Yeah. Well, and thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of Brilliant Minds. And we hope that we see your likes, comments, shares. If you have questions, thoughts, feelings, let us know in the comments. Please be nice. We'll just ignore you if you're mean or rude. Please subscribe and follow our YouTube channel as well as our Spotify and Instagram and we'll see you in our rabbit trail episode. Olivia: See you later, y'all. Andrea: Bye!