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The Daughter of the Silver Gun Rapist · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apote production.
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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand I'm your host,
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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. When someone commits a notorious crime, the victims
0:21
Speaker 2: are never the only people whose lives are changed forever.
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Speaker 2: Families are left to grapple with an unimaginable reality, trying
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Speaker 2: to reconcile the person they know with the person the
0:30
Speaker 2: rest of the world sees. My guest today is Stacy.
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Speaker 2: She's the daughter of Peter Vetos, the man known as
0:37
Speaker 2: the Silver Gun Rapist, who was convicted of a series
0:40
Speaker 2: of violent sexual offenses that made him one of Australia's
0:43
Speaker 2: most infamous criminals. For much of her life, Stacy had
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Speaker 2: little relationship with her father. Only in recent years have
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Speaker 2: they begun to rebuild that connection, forcing her to confront
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Speaker 2: difficult questions about who he was, what he did, and
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Speaker 2: whether it's possible to have a relationship with someone whose
1:00
Speaker 2: past is so confronting. This conversation isn't about excusing crime
1:05
Speaker 2: or rewriting history. It's about the complicated reality of family, identity, forgiveness,
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Speaker 2: and what it means to be the child of someone
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Speaker 2: whose name is forever linked to terrible acts. Stacy, Welcome
1:16
Speaker 2: to Real Crime with Adam Sham.
1:17
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me on Adam.
1:19
Speaker 2: Absolute pleasure. You didn't have a relationship with your dad
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Speaker 2: for a long time. How did you come to be
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Speaker 2: back in contact with him?
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Speaker 1: I didn't actually find out he was my father until
1:27
Speaker 1: I was about fourteen years old, and I didn't meet
1:30
Speaker 1: him until I was twenty seven. And I just needed
1:33
Speaker 1: to meet him, So I tracked him down and went
1:36
Speaker 1: around to his house one day, just unannounced, did the
1:39
Speaker 1: lab around.
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Speaker 2: Why did you do that?
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Speaker 1: Needed to? Basically I didn't know what I was going
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Speaker 1: for when I went. I didn't know if there was
1:50
Speaker 1: going to be a confrontation if I just I didn't
1:54
Speaker 1: know what to expect. I was very angry at him, obviously,
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Speaker 1: and I felt that he'd ruined my life, my mum's life,
1:59
Speaker 1: and the lives of countless women that I don't know.
2:03
Speaker 1: And yeah, I didn't know what to expect. In some ways,
2:05
Speaker 1: I expected a bit of a showdown, but that's not
2:08
Speaker 1: what I got.
2:09
Speaker 2: So what did you get?
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Speaker 1: I got a surprise I got once I said to him,
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Speaker 1: I'm Stacy, because at first he wasn't sure who I was,
2:18
Speaker 1: and he immediately just grabs me, pulled me into a
2:22
Speaker 1: big bear hug. I was there with my husband at
2:26
Speaker 1: the time, and he was with me and Dad just
2:29
Speaker 1: pulled me if Dad was gardening, he pulled me into
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Speaker 1: a bear hug, and his shovel went down between me
2:34
Speaker 1: and Shannon, my husband, and then he's just looked at
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Speaker 1: Shannon and gone and who are you?
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Speaker 2: Yeah? Because what had you known about him to this point?
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Speaker 2: Your mother, I presume it kept that away from you
2:45
Speaker 2: for a long time. How did you even find out
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Speaker 2: about his past?
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Speaker 1: Well, my mum got remarried when I was quite young.
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Speaker 1: I may have been about five years old, and my
2:57
Speaker 1: stepdad was a lovely guy, and I believe he did
3:00
Speaker 1: want to formally adopt me, but he passed away when
3:03
Speaker 1: he was thirty five years old. He died quite young
3:06
Speaker 1: house bow cancer. So he was diagnosed and six weeks
3:12
Speaker 1: later he was dead. It was very quick.
3:15
Speaker 2: All you men out there get your bow cancer checks.
3:18
Speaker 2: It's another reminder had women.
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Speaker 1: To yep and yes, but this is a thing. I
3:26
Speaker 1: did remember meeting him, so I knew that he wasn't
3:30
Speaker 1: my biological father. I called him Dad, and he had
3:35
Speaker 1: children with mums, so I had siblings from that. Two
3:39
Speaker 1: of them actually passed away within it was a three
3:43
Speaker 1: year period. They passed away, and my stepdad passed away.
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Speaker 1: So when I talk about my dad, it's actually really
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Speaker 1: hard to tell what damage came from Dad and what
3:51
Speaker 1: damage came from losing two siblings and a stepfather before
3:55
Speaker 1: the age of ten.
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Speaker 2: A lot of trauma, yeah, a lot of trauma.
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Speaker 1: So I basically one day, I was about fourteen, and
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Speaker 1: I had a few drinks with a couple of teenagers,
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Speaker 1: as you might nautally do it Natalie might do, and
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Speaker 1: I got bold and I said, who's my dad? I
4:13
Speaker 1: want to know? Tell me I remember when you met
4:16
Speaker 1: when you met dad, because I used to call my
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Speaker 1: step dad he was dead. Then I was like, I
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Speaker 1: remember when you met him, so I know he's not
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Speaker 1: my dad, and I want you to tell me who
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Speaker 1: my dad is. And my mom said, no, I'm not
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Speaker 1: telling you. I'll tell you in the morning when you're
4:29
Speaker 1: sober up. And I said, why, It's not like he's
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Speaker 1: going to be Jack the Ripper or something, is he? Yeah?
4:35
Speaker 1: True story.
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Speaker 2: And so she told you.
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Speaker 1: The next day when I was sober.
4:41
Speaker 2: What a shock. Not Jack the Ripper but the silver
4:44
Speaker 2: gun rapist. Well, he didn't kill anyone but and just
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Speaker 2: for the background for listeners, I mean, it was a
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Speaker 2: particularly terrifying series of offenses where he was breaking into
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Speaker 2: homes with a gun and terrorizing females and raping them.
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Speaker 2: And there was more than a dozen of these victims.
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Speaker 2: The stamp.
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Speaker 1: Ah, well, I don't think that. I don't. I can't
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Speaker 1: remember what we saw on he's a rap sheet last time.
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Speaker 1: I think it was ten.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, but people say it's more. Some detectives say there
5:16
Speaker 2: was more, but.
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Speaker 1: I'm sure they do.
5:19
Speaker 2: We'll get to that later. But so your mum says,
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Speaker 2: this is your dad, Peter Atos. Yep, he did all
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Speaker 2: these heinous things.
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Speaker 1: Well, no, she always called him Zach. I don't think
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Speaker 1: I ever heard her call him Peter, because the thing
5:32
Speaker 1: with my father was he had false identities, so she
5:36
Speaker 1: didn't know him as Peter Atos. She knew him as
5:38
Speaker 1: Zach Baale. And he was a photographer, he said, I believe.
5:44
Speaker 1: And he also went away to race greyhounds, and he did.
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Speaker 2: He did.
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Speaker 1: In fact, I have a number of greyhounds, and he
5:50
Speaker 1: did race greehounds. But when he was off with other
5:53
Speaker 1: women or committing crimes, he was racing greyhounds.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So you discovered this at fourteen, Another thirteen years
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Speaker 2: goes by before you pluck up the courage to find him.
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Speaker 2: What were those years like lonely?
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Speaker 1: I guess it's not something that you can turn around
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Speaker 1: to your friends and say, remember the time that you
6:14
Speaker 1: found out your real dad was a notorious criminal, because
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Speaker 1: it just doesn't happen. So it's one of those experiences
6:20
Speaker 1: that's outside the realms of an ordinary life experience. And
6:24
Speaker 1: it was something I was deeply ashamed of. I didn't
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Speaker 1: like anyone to know. I find it funny now I've
6:30
Speaker 1: gone all the way the opposite from that, and I'm
6:33
Speaker 1: sitting here with you, Adam, But initially I hated it.
6:37
Speaker 1: I didn't like people knowing. And in fact, if my
6:39
Speaker 1: mum made a new friend and told them, I'd get
6:42
Speaker 1: really angry because I'd be like feeling like I was
6:45
Speaker 1: losing control of my own story as well, because it's
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Speaker 1: not just mum's story, it was my story too.
6:51
Speaker 2: And what did she tell you about their relationship and
6:54
Speaker 2: how it come about and what happened back in those.
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Speaker 1: Days, Just that they'd met and he'd introduced himself as
6:59
Speaker 1: a photographer, and I think they clicked and they genuinely
7:03
Speaker 1: got along and they started dating, and I believe I
7:08
Speaker 1: came along not too far into that. She got pregnant
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Speaker 1: quite quite soon, and I was just over one year
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Speaker 1: old when Dad got arrested, So I did spend a
7:19
Speaker 1: year with him, which I obviously don't remember. But I
7:22
Speaker 1: think there's part of you that that remembers. If it's
7:26
Speaker 1: your nervous system, or there's just something that was familiar
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Speaker 1: to me when I met him as a twenty seven
7:33
Speaker 1: year old, bet that could be. We're very similar. We
7:37
Speaker 1: have similar mannerisms, we have similar ways of talking and
7:40
Speaker 1: things as well. So some people just take after one
7:44
Speaker 1: parent more naturally than the other, and I take after Dad,
7:47
Speaker 1: and fortunately for my mom because that probably wasn't fun
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Speaker 1: to watch.
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Speaker 2: But yeah, we'll get to that, because that's obviously obviously
7:55
Speaker 2: caused conflicts in your life since when you met him.
7:58
Speaker 2: But your mother obviously was very angry with your father
8:03
Speaker 2: because while together, he's continuing to commit these heinous offenses.
8:09
Speaker 2: What role did she play in his incarceration?
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Speaker 1: She played a big role. Actually, he was arrested with
8:15
Speaker 1: another woman who he was in a relationship with. They
8:19
Speaker 1: had no children together, but she and him were arrested
8:24
Speaker 1: together at the house that they shared, because he had
8:28
Speaker 1: houses with everybody and you know, multiple lives. And my
8:33
Speaker 1: mom saw him on the news being arrested, and she
8:37
Speaker 1: didn't know what to do. She was twenty two years old,
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Speaker 1: and I don't think my grandparents made the best decision,
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Speaker 1: but they took her and she presented to a police
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Speaker 1: station and said, that was my chum me in her arms,
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Speaker 1: that was my baby's dad on the news that got arrested.
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Speaker 1: I think if she hadn't have done that, they might
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Speaker 1: not have realized she did exist. But you can't change
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Speaker 1: what's happened.
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Speaker 2: So she gave evidence against you. If he gave.
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Speaker 1: Evidence, yes, he wouldn't have got the sort of sentence
9:06
Speaker 1: that he did unless she gave evidence. One of the
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Speaker 1: stories that mum told me was I believe she said
9:13
Speaker 1: it was nan a Wadding police station. I'm not too sure,
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Speaker 1: but she said that when she went in there here
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Speaker 1: there was some detectives that came out and they said
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Speaker 1: something to her along the lines of do you remember
9:24
Speaker 1: him ever having burns because apparently a victim had thrown
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Speaker 1: a kettle or a saucepan of water at him, And
9:31
Speaker 1: she said, well, yeah. I do remember the date because
9:33
Speaker 1: it was right around my birthday. And she told them
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Speaker 1: the date, and she just said. The two detectives looked
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Speaker 1: at each other and high fived and said, we've got him.
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Speaker 2: So there's your mother helping put your father away. Yes,
9:47
Speaker 2: for a long stretch, he done all the research. What
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Speaker 2: did he get in the end in terms of jail.
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Speaker 1: He got twenty eight with a thirty five, a thirty
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Speaker 1: five with a twenty eight, whichever way you want to
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Speaker 1: say that, I believe. And he ended up he got
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Speaker 1: out in nineteen ninety six, so he did seventeen years.
10:03
Speaker 1: In the end, it was he was sentenced under older laws.
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Speaker 1: So I'm sure if he did his crimes today, he
10:09
Speaker 1: would have a much heftier sentence.
10:12
Speaker 2: I think so. And I think there was even a
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Speaker 2: pushback then that he should never be released, that he
10:17
Speaker 2: would never be rehabilitated. He is the kind of offender
10:20
Speaker 2: that the public outcry would be so great that governments
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Speaker 2: might even enact laws, as they do occasionally to keep
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Speaker 2: people inside and take away their right to freedom. Ever,
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Speaker 2: and there was such a strong pushback against his possible release.
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Speaker 2: I remember there was a front page artic on the
10:39
Speaker 2: age where I think the headline was can evil ever
10:43
Speaker 2: be rehabilitated? Yep? And the amazing thing was that your
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Speaker 2: father did not offend No having left.
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Speaker 1: No, he hasn't. I mean, if he had believed me,
10:55
Speaker 1: they would have thrown him in prison by now. There's
10:57
Speaker 1: every now and then something happens and they come and
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Speaker 1: ask where were you. They've got his DNA, So yeah,
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Speaker 1: if he'd done something, they'd love to put him back
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Speaker 1: in prison for it. But he just hasn't given them
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Speaker 1: the opportunity. He's been clean as far as as far
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Speaker 1: as I know and as far as the police knows.
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Speaker 1: And I'm kind of proud of that because it's been
11:18
Speaker 1: thirty years this year since he got out.
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Speaker 2: Right and he did the Sex Offender's course inside jail
11:24
Speaker 2: and he got insight into his offending and the misogynism
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Speaker 2: that underpinned it. And I think that, in some ways
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Speaker 2: is a good testament to rehabilitation itself. In the prison system.
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Speaker 2: Often we hear that it's just a facade, doesn't work.
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Speaker 2: People go back to I think forty three percent of
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Speaker 2: people are reoffending within a couple of years of coming
11:46
Speaker 2: out of jail. But there's an example of someone who
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Speaker 2: they all thought would fail, but he hasn't.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yep, And I mean I'm surprised he even didn't
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Speaker 1: return to thieving because he was this is the thing.
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Speaker 1: Everyone knows him as a serial rapist, but he was
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Speaker 1: a thief first and foremost, and a very talented one.
12:04
Speaker 1: I guess you could say. I mean, he's told me
12:07
Speaker 1: he was melting down getting that much Jewey melted down
12:10
Speaker 1: there when he was arrested. He had a heap of
12:11
Speaker 1: ingots and gold ingots and things. So apparently the police
12:15
Speaker 1: said to him, why did you start doing the rapes?
12:17
Speaker 1: Because we had no idea who you were, and you
12:19
Speaker 1: were on a good wicket, you know.
12:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, So at twenty seven you decide it's time to
12:27
Speaker 2: find your dad. What precipitated that?
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Speaker 1: Just wanting to know one of my siblings. She was
12:34
Speaker 1: very upset in general because my stepfather that died was
12:39
Speaker 1: her biological father, and it really upset her that she
12:42
Speaker 1: couldn't remember him. And she used to get upset about
12:47
Speaker 1: that and talk to mom about how upset she was
12:49
Speaker 1: that she couldn't remember her father. And I was sort
12:52
Speaker 1: of thinking, well, hang on, I don't remember my father,
12:54
Speaker 1: but I don't dare say anything, because that's a different
12:59
Speaker 1: it's a different set of rules when it comes to him.
13:04
Speaker 2: So high I had the private investigator, and you located
13:08
Speaker 2: him and he marched up there with you. Then husband
13:10
Speaker 2: knocked on the door, he gives you the big bear hug.
13:12
Speaker 2: That's the easy part. Now, I guess you're thinking, what
13:16
Speaker 2: happens next? Wats the conversation? What was your aim in
13:19
Speaker 2: that meeting?
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Speaker 1: I just wanted to meet him. I just wanted to
13:22
Speaker 1: see what he looked like. I wanted to hear his voice.
13:25
Speaker 1: So I wanted to know who I came from. And yeah,
13:30
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting to be met with love. That shocked me.
13:33
Speaker 1: I was, you know, but I'm glad he did because
13:37
Speaker 1: the way he cuddled me and shoved the shovel down
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Speaker 1: like you know, if he'd been as scary towards me
13:46
Speaker 1: as my mum always said he would be, I might
13:48
Speaker 1: have been in a bit of trouble, but he would
13:50
Speaker 1: never hurt me. He is my dad.
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Speaker 2: So what were the questions you had for him?
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Speaker 1: Why? It wasn't so much questions at the start. It
14:01
Speaker 1: was more rage, like, how dare you You've ruined my life?
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Speaker 1: You've ruined my mom if you're in the lives of
14:07
Speaker 1: all these countless women that I don't know, but I'd
14:10
Speaker 1: be very angry about that too. I mean, as a female,
14:14
Speaker 1: there's no worse kind of criminal to have as a
14:16
Speaker 1: parent than a sex offender, especially a serial one. And
14:19
Speaker 1: I think, and I think you'll agree with this. Often
14:22
Speaker 1: people not a serial killer, but if someone's stuffed up
14:26
Speaker 1: and murdered somebody, they'll often kind of view that as
14:29
Speaker 1: less than what my dad's done, because people can I
14:34
Speaker 1: don't know, do you know what I'm fining?
14:35
Speaker 2: Absolutely? And I think the trauma. Listen, every crime carries trauma,
14:40
Speaker 2: and they're ripple effects from all these things. But I think,
14:43
Speaker 2: in particular, knowing the trauma they inflicted on other people,
14:47
Speaker 2: including your own mother, for you now to sit in
14:50
Speaker 2: front of him and try to create a relationship was
14:53
Speaker 2: full of all these pitfalls and obstacles, and you know,
14:58
Speaker 2: you be questioning yourself and you're an unwitting victim of
15:02
Speaker 2: the trauma of his offenses. But there I said in
15:05
Speaker 2: front of him. I think most people couldn't imagine doing that.
15:07
Speaker 1: I'm not proud of it, you know. And I told
15:10
Speaker 1: Dad because I've been considering writing a book and working
15:14
Speaker 1: on that, and I told Dad I was going to
15:17
Speaker 1: write about it. So I don't mind telling you now.
15:19
Speaker 1: But I got so angry one day when I'd only
15:23
Speaker 1: known him for a few weeks and I was standing
15:24
Speaker 1: there talking to him, and I was just like, you
15:26
Speaker 1: ruined my life. You've ruined Moum's life. I'm like, and
15:29
Speaker 1: you did that to all those women. And I hit
15:33
Speaker 1: him and I kicked him, and I hit him and
15:35
Speaker 1: I kicked him, and I hit him a few more times,
15:37
Speaker 1: and I him a few more times, and he took it.
15:40
Speaker 1: And it's not how you should deal with your anger,
15:43
Speaker 1: but it helped me get some of the anger out.
15:47
Speaker 1: It probably wasn't the best way to do it, but
15:49
Speaker 1: it's something that happened.
15:51
Speaker 2: And you began a relationship at that point. Yep. It's
15:54
Speaker 2: not been easy over the years. Tell me about that.
15:57
Speaker 1: Well, apart from anything else, we're both very stubborn, we're
16:00
Speaker 1: both very similar, so we can clash. And the other
16:04
Speaker 1: thing I didn't inspect was he's very strict, like he
16:07
Speaker 1: doesn't like me hanging out with bad people what he
16:10
Speaker 1: deems as bad people, or doing things that he doesn't
16:13
Speaker 1: approve of When I met him, although this is kind
16:17
Speaker 1: of messed up. He said to me, you've got a tattoo.
16:20
Speaker 1: No daughter of mine would have had a tattoo. I said,
16:22
Speaker 1: I was seventeen when I got it. He said, no
16:23
Speaker 1: daughter of mine would have had a tatoo at seventeen
16:25
Speaker 1: if I'd been around, And said, well, guess what, you
16:28
Speaker 1: weren't there, and he goes, it's a it's an identifying mark.
16:32
Speaker 1: Now you've got a permanent identifying mark on you. And
16:34
Speaker 1: I was just like, oh, I thought I was in
16:36
Speaker 1: trouble because because I had a tattoo. I was in
16:40
Speaker 1: trouble because I had an identifying mark.
16:42
Speaker 2: If you wanted to be a criminal, he could be identified. So, yeah,
16:47
Speaker 2: that's amazing. You got your own kids. So this meeting
16:51
Speaker 2: came with an introduction to his own grandchildren.
16:54
Speaker 1: They weren't born then. I see, yes, So my eldest
16:59
Speaker 1: wasn't born until nine and I met him in O seven, right,
17:05
Speaker 1: So and then we had a pretty big falling out
17:09
Speaker 1: after that. My oldest was very sick with a heart
17:11
Speaker 1: condition and surgeries for a long time. And yeah, he
17:16
Speaker 1: really didn't kind of get to have any meeting with
17:19
Speaker 1: my children until a few years ago, basically, I think
17:24
Speaker 1: around twenty two or twenty three. Yeah, it's not something
17:28
Speaker 1: that happens very often. They have met him, but they
17:31
Speaker 1: don't see him very often.
17:34
Speaker 2: And I'm sure there's been some hard conversations along the way,
17:37
Speaker 2: because I would imagine you'd want to know that he's
17:41
Speaker 2: been fully honest with you about everything that he did.
17:43
Speaker 2: Have you set him down and sort of probed him
17:45
Speaker 2: on that level about other offenses he might have committed.
17:49
Speaker 2: I have.
17:50
Speaker 1: I think you know, Look, I don't know, but I
17:53
Speaker 1: imagine he probably did some burglaries he never got convicted
17:57
Speaker 1: or charged for. But I don't think that's what you're
18:01
Speaker 1: That's not the rue anything really asking. I don't look.
18:05
Speaker 1: I can only say no, I don't believe he's done
18:08
Speaker 1: anything that he hasn't been convicted of. But there's no
18:13
Speaker 1: way to know, is there.
18:15
Speaker 2: Well, I guess it comes down to whether honesty is
18:19
Speaker 2: really important to your relationship or are you prepared to
18:23
Speaker 2: let certain things slide, because I just that's the way
18:26
Speaker 2: the world.
18:27
Speaker 1: He's had his DNA taken by the police. I figure
18:30
Speaker 1: they probably would have gleefully come and slapped handcuffs on
18:33
Speaker 1: him by now if he had, if his DNA matched anything,
18:39
Speaker 1: I assume, but I don't know. Sometimes things that we
18:42
Speaker 1: think are going to happen in the crime world don't happen,
18:45
Speaker 1: do they true.
18:47
Speaker 2: Was there ever a moment where you said to him father, Dad,
18:52
Speaker 2: is there anything you need to tell me those sorts
18:54
Speaker 2: of conversations?
18:55
Speaker 1: Yes? And he said no. So yeah, That's all I
19:00
Speaker 1: can say is he's told me that he hasn't I know? Yeah,
19:04
Speaker 1: I don't know. I know that the police tried to
19:06
Speaker 1: ask mum about different things and she just didn't have
19:09
Speaker 1: any awareness. I think if anyone did it, maybe the
19:15
Speaker 1: one that married him in Pantridor. I don't know.
19:18
Speaker 2: Right well, as you say they've got his DNA, there
19:21
Speaker 2: are victims out there who think they were a victim
19:24
Speaker 2: of Peter Betos. You can get in touch and bring
19:25
Speaker 2: a prosecution that you're right. And how would you feel
19:29
Speaker 2: about that? Now? If he was to be arrested again.
19:31
Speaker 1: It'd be pretty upset. Yeah, I'd be devastated. I'd be
19:36
Speaker 1: very very angry with him. Would I still stand by him?
19:40
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a hard question, and it's one
19:44
Speaker 1: I hope that you never have to ask yourself. I don't.
19:47
Speaker 1: I think you're right with your kids and stuff. But
19:50
Speaker 1: I know there was another reporter from TV news and
19:53
Speaker 1: a football player that I had a son that was
19:57
Speaker 1: convicted of rape, and that must have been very unexpected
19:59
Speaker 1: for them, and they did stand by him. However, that's
20:02
Speaker 1: a son that's not a father. There's a difference between
20:05
Speaker 1: standing by a son and standing by a father.
20:08
Speaker 2: So, and you've had to process all those other offenses anyway,
20:13
Speaker 2: So I guess in terms, I mean that there's the
20:15
Speaker 2: rights that the victims. Of course, I'm not diminishing them
20:17
Speaker 2: in any way, shape or form. But you've already processed
20:21
Speaker 2: the fact that he was the silver gun rapist and
20:23
Speaker 2: he did all these things.
20:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm forty seven, so I've had a good I've
20:27
Speaker 1: had over thirty years to come to terms with it,
20:30
Speaker 1: and I've had a lot of counseling and different things.
20:34
Speaker 1: It's interesting because even therapy is meant to be a
20:36
Speaker 1: safe space, but when your father's a silver gun rapist,
20:39
Speaker 1: it's interesting. You might bring it up and you can't
20:42
Speaker 1: help but notice that micro expression flicker of discomfort or whatever.
20:47
Speaker 1: Or they might try to redirect the conversation and you're like, Wow,
20:50
Speaker 1: even the therapists aren't really comfortable talking about Yeah, what happened.
20:55
Speaker 1: It's heavy, it's very It's like a movie, to be honest.
20:59
Speaker 2: Well, it is, and I think that's that's Fascinatingly, it
21:02
Speaker 2: is like a movie scene where you know, the daughter
21:04
Speaker 2: of a or as criminal is now seeking counseling, and
21:08
Speaker 2: I guess the counselor in the back of their mind
21:09
Speaker 2: is thinking, is this person giving some sort of moral
21:13
Speaker 2: leave past to their father? Shouldn't they be judging them?
21:16
Speaker 2: Shouldn't they be distancing themselves from And I guess that's
21:20
Speaker 2: a natural human response. But you're there to what were
21:23
Speaker 2: you going to counseling for? What did you seek to
21:26
Speaker 2: get from that?
21:26
Speaker 1: It's hard because, like I said, there was a lot
21:28
Speaker 1: of trauma before age ten, So I guess all of
21:31
Speaker 1: it's kind of one great big clump of trauma, an't
21:34
Speaker 1: it try to untangle? And yeah, it's hard to kind
21:38
Speaker 1: of think of the traumas I had in my teenage
21:41
Speaker 1: years and my childhood as separate events because you, yeah,
21:46
Speaker 1: because they work so close in time.
21:49
Speaker 2: That's right, and none of this you're in control of.
21:52
Speaker 2: You're making connections based on your need for identity resolve
21:56
Speaker 2: in the past. But of course choosing your father to
22:00
Speaker 2: speak to your father put your at loggerheads with your mother.
22:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was shocked at that. I didn't expect
22:06
Speaker 1: her to cut ties with me. I mean, there was
22:09
Speaker 1: a reason I told her after I met him, Like
22:12
Speaker 1: the first meeting, I rang her up and told her
22:14
Speaker 1: the next day that i'd met him. I didn't do
22:17
Speaker 1: it beforehand, and I guess that's because I didn't want
22:19
Speaker 1: it to talk me out of it. When she'd told
22:23
Speaker 1: me that he was in jail, she told me that
22:26
Speaker 1: I could meet him if I wanted to, But then
22:28
Speaker 1: she told me that she was so scared she would
22:30
Speaker 1: want me to wear colored contact lenses and put a
22:32
Speaker 1: wig on and hide my identity and not let him
22:34
Speaker 1: know what I really look like. And what fourteen year
22:37
Speaker 1: old's going to say, Yeah, okay, I'll go to the
22:38
Speaker 1: scary jail and I'll wear a disguise. So I feel
22:42
Speaker 1: like I was given the option without really being given
22:44
Speaker 1: the option, if that makes sense.
22:47
Speaker 2: So mum cut all ties? Is that the same way? Now?
22:50
Speaker 1: Eventually we got back in touch. But when I had children,
22:54
Speaker 1: you know, particularly, and I had a sick child. I
22:55
Speaker 1: wanted my mum, but things just never went back the
23:00
Speaker 1: same and it was just very volatile from that point
23:04
Speaker 1: on and easy to have a twiny thing become a
23:07
Speaker 1: big blow up. And you know, we went through all
23:11
Speaker 1: those traumas together, not just my dad, and I think
23:14
Speaker 1: sometimes when you go through trauma with people that can
23:17
Speaker 1: tear you apart as well as bringing closer together and
23:20
Speaker 1: with us, I guess it tore.
23:21
Speaker 2: Us upont how are you going now? With her?
23:23
Speaker 1: We don't talk. We haven't spoken for a few years.
23:27
Speaker 1: I was very close to her mother, my nana. She
23:30
Speaker 1: died in twenty twenty, and you know, that's been a loss.
23:34
Speaker 1: It's hard. I guess Dad's really the only family I
23:38
Speaker 1: talk to now. And you know, it's like when I
23:43
Speaker 1: got married, me and my husband went and got married
23:45
Speaker 1: in Vegas, because how do you choose am I going
23:47
Speaker 1: to invite my beautiful nana or am I going to
23:49
Speaker 1: invite my dad? So you just tend everything's a non event. Really,
23:52
Speaker 1: you just tend to go and do your own thing,
23:55
Speaker 1: become a bit of a lone wolf.
23:57
Speaker 2: And choose your kids. You created your own family and
24:00
Speaker 2: new family.
24:01
Speaker 1: Yes, well they came because we did it in reverse.
24:03
Speaker 1: We had kids first and then got married. But they
24:05
Speaker 1: came to America and Elvis walked me down the aisle.
24:11
Speaker 2: I guess these are the things that people who don't
24:13
Speaker 2: have these criminal connections would never understand. How the kids
24:18
Speaker 2: of notorious criminals have to carry the legacy of what
24:22
Speaker 2: the previous generation did and you.
24:26
Speaker 1: Can't escape it. Whereas, for for example, the woman that
24:30
Speaker 1: would sometimes assist him with burglaries later married him in prison.
24:35
Speaker 1: Now she's later divorced and remarried, had children. Now, how
24:41
Speaker 1: many people know that she married the silver gun rapist
24:43
Speaker 1: and she was willingly in a relationship with him. I
24:46
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe she's really honest about it. I don't
24:48
Speaker 1: know her, but I suspect it's been rather easy for
24:51
Speaker 1: her to put that behind her in a way that
24:54
Speaker 1: you can't when you're their child.
24:56
Speaker 2: And she knew at the time what he was doing.
24:58
Speaker 1: I don't believe she knew about the rapes, but she
25:00
Speaker 1: knew he was a burglar, yes, and.
25:02
Speaker 2: She doesn't advertise the fact that she was Peters.
25:06
Speaker 1: I imagine not. I don't think you would. Why would you.
25:11
Speaker 1: I think it's a different situation. I guess it's the
25:14
Speaker 1: same as me. But I think it's It's not for
25:17
Speaker 1: me to judge anybody, but I think it's a bit
25:19
Speaker 1: stranger that someone that's not related to somebody would still
25:23
Speaker 1: have a relationship with them when they've done those kinds
25:26
Speaker 1: of crimes and go on to marry them in prison.
25:28
Speaker 1: But yeah, she was a big part of Dad's life,
25:31
Speaker 1: and he would like me to say a bad word
25:33
Speaker 1: about her. I can't judge her. I don't know, but
25:36
Speaker 1: I think it's probably been easier for her to move
25:38
Speaker 1: on than it has been for me. But who am
25:41
Speaker 1: I to say that she might have deep troubles because
25:44
Speaker 1: of it. I don't know.
25:46
Speaker 2: Now he goes by his name, He hasn't changed it now.
25:48
Speaker 2: He lives a private life. But has he had other relationships?
25:53
Speaker 2: What does his life look like?
25:55
Speaker 1: He has had relationships since since prison? I guess you mean,
25:58
Speaker 1: and he has. I have never met anyone that he's
26:03
Speaker 1: been in a relationship with. He hasn't had a long
26:06
Speaker 1: term relationship when I've been around. But Dad and I
26:09
Speaker 1: do have sporadic contact, so we're not constantly in contact.
26:15
Speaker 1: Probably last saw him about five or six weeks ago,
26:18
Speaker 1: but it was probably three or four months before that, And.
26:22
Speaker 2: How we came together was through your desire to help
26:26
Speaker 2: him resolve something that he'd been thinking about and trying
26:29
Speaker 2: to act on for many years. When he was in jail,
26:31
Speaker 2: he knew Raymond Edmunds, mister stinky, and he said things
26:38
Speaker 2: to your father which made your father believe that Edmunds
26:42
Speaker 2: was the killer in the Frankston Tynong murders, all unsold murders. Yes,
26:49
Speaker 2: and what did your father do.
26:52
Speaker 1: Then said at the time also made Dad believe that
26:54
Speaker 1: he had murdered Edwina Boyle. But that wasn't the case.
26:58
Speaker 1: That was a bit of interpretation went into that, and
27:01
Speaker 1: I think Dad interpreted it the wrong way, which is
27:04
Speaker 1: a shame because it takes a little bit away from
27:06
Speaker 1: the letter the fact that yep, that wasn't the killer.
27:10
Speaker 1: But it gives it something too because he still knew
27:13
Speaker 1: twenty years before the police that she was passed away.
27:16
Speaker 2: That's well, there you go. And Edwina Boyle was actually
27:18
Speaker 2: killed by her husband, Fred Boyle, yes, who died not
27:22
Speaker 2: long ago, and he had actually tided her body around
27:26
Speaker 2: in a forty four gallon drum for a couple of decades. Yes,
27:29
Speaker 2: horrifying what he did.
27:30
Speaker 1: I've seen a photo of a party in the backyard
27:33
Speaker 1: and there's a barrel in the background.
27:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's an interesting aspect to that, which we've
27:38
Speaker 2: talked about in other context with Tracy Fransic. Actually, yes,
27:41
Speaker 2: and the fact that there was other biological material in
27:44
Speaker 2: that drum.
27:45
Speaker 1: It was hair. It was twenty inch long hair that
27:48
Speaker 1: was black and wavy. Now, I think most of the
27:52
Speaker 1: things in that barrel were black, So whether their hair
27:55
Speaker 1: was initially black or not, but it was certainly black
27:58
Speaker 1: when it was discovered. Yeah, and there's a big question
28:02
Speaker 1: around whose hair is it because I had short blonde hair,
28:06
Speaker 1: so whose head was in a duena's barrel?
28:09
Speaker 2: Indeed? And possibly Fred Boyle ad murdered somebody else, yes.
28:12
Speaker 1: And was within the realms of possibility.
28:15
Speaker 2: Well it is. He was a heinous, remorseless killer, So
28:19
Speaker 2: who knows.
28:19
Speaker 1: I don't know if people know that he's dead, actually, Adam,
28:22
Speaker 1: because I don't think it was in the media.
28:24
Speaker 2: He is dead, fortunately, Yes.
28:26
Speaker 1: Deeper sympathies to his daughters. I know that they loved him.
28:29
Speaker 1: He was dad to them, and.
28:31
Speaker 2: You understand that, Yeah, I do. Yeah, us not.
28:34
Speaker 1: Cutt and it's not black and white. It's really not.
28:37
Speaker 1: There's a lot of nuance in situations like this, and
28:40
Speaker 1: you probably don't realize how much nuance there is until
28:43
Speaker 1: you're living inside of it. I'm not a rape sympathizer.
28:46
Speaker 1: I'm not a you know, I'm not. I don't think
28:49
Speaker 1: that what he did was right. It was fucking disgusting.
28:53
Speaker 1: Like if he was not my dad, I probably I
28:56
Speaker 1: wouldn't seek a relationship with him. But he's my dad
29:00
Speaker 1: and I love him, and I'm not ashamed to say that.
29:05
Speaker 2: And to the point where you wanted to help him
29:07
Speaker 2: get the message out about.
29:09
Speaker 1: That for him. But Yes, Catherine Hedlund.
29:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the victims. And Bertha Miller, but.
29:16
Speaker 1: Beth she liked to be called, Yes, And Anne Marie.
29:20
Speaker 1: Anne Marie was found with them. That's why I bring
29:22
Speaker 1: her into it, because she was found with Catherine and Bertha.
29:26
Speaker 1: Even though she wasn't mentioned in the letter, she was
29:28
Speaker 1: clearly there.
29:29
Speaker 2: Yes, because your father wrote to the then police Commissioner
29:32
Speaker 2: Kell Blaire saying anonymously.
29:35
Speaker 1: That herrings the brooch tell us what he actually wrote,
29:39
Speaker 1: So he basically said, is the Tynong file gathering dust
29:43
Speaker 1: in a bit of a cocky manner. Do you need help?
29:46
Speaker 1: This is a mass Sorry if I get the card
29:48
Speaker 1: and the letter mixed up, I'm not sure which was
29:50
Speaker 1: in which off the top of my head, something about
29:52
Speaker 1: it being a mass killing. The likes hadn't been seen
29:56
Speaker 1: anywhere in Australia except for perhaps Truer. Did the police
30:00
Speaker 1: know that Edwin O'Boyle was also a victim, and did
30:03
Speaker 1: they find Catherine's sterling silver bluebird ear rings and Bertha's
30:09
Speaker 1: brooch that they were wearing on the days they were abducted. Now,
30:13
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if Catherine's earrings were actually bluebirds or
30:15
Speaker 1: if it was just because Dad described sleepers with bluebirds.
30:18
Speaker 1: But I've read in the documents because Tracy and I
30:22
Speaker 1: have been up to our eyeballs and coronial in quest
30:24
Speaker 1: files and different things trying to research it, and I
30:28
Speaker 1: only ever see them referred to as sleepers, So I
30:30
Speaker 1: think that was perhaps the part that peaked the interest
30:33
Speaker 1: of the police officers, not the bluebird part, which is
30:35
Speaker 1: what I previously thought.
30:37
Speaker 2: It's interesting your relationship with Tracy, who was a friend
30:39
Speaker 2: of between a Boyles and tried to get the police
30:43
Speaker 2: for a long time to look at Fred. Yes, she
30:45
Speaker 2: thought that he had murdered her, and so you've come
30:49
Speaker 2: together around.
30:50
Speaker 1: It's amazing because a daughter of an offender doesn't usually
30:54
Speaker 1: become friends with a victim's friend or a victim's family member.
30:59
Speaker 1: And Tracy is probably the single most non judgmental person
31:04
Speaker 1: I have ever met in my life. I've only known
31:07
Speaker 1: her for maybe four months or something, but I love
31:10
Speaker 1: her guts, And yeah.
31:12
Speaker 2: I can claim credit for bringing you two together somehow. Yeah,
31:16
Speaker 2: but I think it's really important because you know, the
31:18
Speaker 2: police probably didn't take your father's information seriously. We put
31:22
Speaker 2: it back to the homicide squad, let them look at
31:25
Speaker 2: it again. He's willing to give evidence on the back
31:27
Speaker 2: of that. So in a sense, you've made concrete steps
31:31
Speaker 2: to help him resolve the past and do something for
31:35
Speaker 2: society's good rather than evil as he was before.
31:38
Speaker 1: Yes, well, I mean when he got his cancer diagnosis,
31:43
Speaker 1: he was really quite open with telling me, you know,
31:48
Speaker 1: what had happened, and that it was now up to
31:50
Speaker 1: me to decide what to do with the information. But
31:54
Speaker 1: he didn't want to pass away and not have Now
31:57
Speaker 1: he's beaten his cancer and he hasn't passed away. I'm
32:00
Speaker 1: sorry to tell you all because I know that there's
32:01
Speaker 1: probably people that were counting on that. Yeah, I'm not
32:07
Speaker 1: sorry for me. I'm glad he's still alive, but yeah,
32:10
Speaker 1: I can imagine those people that are sorry to hear
32:12
Speaker 1: that news.
32:13
Speaker 2: So hopefully they were looking at this information seriously because
32:17
Speaker 2: the Frank sent Tinong murders are a longstanding mystery in Victoria.
32:21
Speaker 1: It is, and me and Tracy have been researching it
32:24
Speaker 1: and we've even been looking like we're going down the
32:27
Speaker 1: Margaret Elliott rabbit hole at the moment she was abducted.
32:32
Speaker 1: She was abducted visiting a friend at box Hill, but
32:34
Speaker 1: she lived in Berwick, where the Catherine Headlind victim lived,
32:37
Speaker 1: and she was actually her body was found close to
32:39
Speaker 1: Bertha Miller's house. And this was in seventy five, And
32:43
Speaker 1: I know I believe the police looked at the time
32:47
Speaker 1: thinking she may have been the first of the tin
32:50
Speaker 1: On victims. But given that you never hear about her
32:52
Speaker 1: and no one knows who she is, I doubt that
32:53
Speaker 1: they came to that conclusion in the end, or who
32:56
Speaker 1: knows that it's all kept under secrets, what the coppers know.
32:59
Speaker 2: That's another podcast. We can do it a later days.
33:01
Speaker 1: Yep.
33:02
Speaker 2: But good on you for trying to help you dad
33:05
Speaker 2: get that information out there.
33:07
Speaker 1: And it's not to help him. It's so hopefully SolV
33:11
Speaker 1: who killed these poor women. One was elderly like, one
33:15
Speaker 1: was a child, and one was eighteen. It's terrible and
33:20
Speaker 1: it's one of the most brutal. I don't know if
33:22
Speaker 1: a lot of people know how brutal it was. And
33:24
Speaker 1: and a lot of the nuance has been lost with
33:26
Speaker 1: time too.
33:28
Speaker 2: And these cases are as cold as cold are. The
33:30
Speaker 2: main suspect, Harold Janman, is now deceased. Yes, and a
33:35
Speaker 2: lot of people think that's where the story ends.
33:36
Speaker 1: But no, I'm one of the people that believe they
33:39
Speaker 1: never should have put the cases together. Now you've got
33:41
Speaker 1: two mindsets, people that think Jamin did absolutely everything, and
33:45
Speaker 1: then you've got some that kind of go, maybe he
33:46
Speaker 1: did the two at Frankston, but that's it. And I'm
33:49
Speaker 1: one of those. I believe that somebody else. And I
33:53
Speaker 1: even think with Narumol or dang as she liked to
33:56
Speaker 1: be called by her friends, I just think that she
33:59
Speaker 1: was close to the site, but the site hadn't been found,
34:02
Speaker 1: so was if it was the same killer, why wasn't
34:04
Speaker 1: she there? The other three bodies and just the fact
34:07
Speaker 1: that her remains were not treated the same way as right.
34:12
Speaker 2: And that's often the problem where you get this so
34:14
Speaker 2: called serial killer operating. Everyone wants to see it as
34:17
Speaker 2: one offender. It's seductive to think in that way, but
34:21
Speaker 2: each victim is a discreete set of evidence and clues
34:24
Speaker 2: that needs to be treated that way.
34:26
Speaker 1: And people like to feel comfortable and think there can
34:29
Speaker 1: only have been one serial killer operating in the area
34:32
Speaker 1: at the time, because people don't want to think the alternative,
34:36
Speaker 1: which is there's two or three killers happening here. But
34:40
Speaker 1: you know, I believe you're originally from Sydney, but you
34:43
Speaker 1: know what Melbourne was like in the seventies and the eighties.
34:46
Speaker 1: It was a bloody dangerous place and time in the
34:49
Speaker 1: world to be a woman certainly was yeah. Yeah, And
34:53
Speaker 1: there's a lot of women that we've forgotten, that aren't
34:55
Speaker 1: even remembered today, that were murdered and there's still cold cases.
35:00
Speaker 2: And they do get forgotten. And I think it's great
35:01
Speaker 2: that you're doing this work and getting that information out there.
35:05
Speaker 2: So what's the future of a relationship with.
35:07
Speaker 1: That, Well, he's at the end of his life. It
35:11
Speaker 1: would be a bit wrong to be in his life
35:14
Speaker 1: and then abandon him when he's in his eighties. You know,
35:17
Speaker 1: he's my dad. I'll help him out if he's sick,
35:20
Speaker 1: I'll take him to appointments, so you know. And this
35:23
Speaker 1: is the thing to Adam. I know last time you
35:26
Speaker 1: touched on forgiveness. But let me ask a question. Is
35:29
Speaker 1: a person like my father more dangerous when they've got
35:33
Speaker 1: absolutely nobody or are they more dangerous when they've got someone.
35:38
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that, but.
35:40
Speaker 2: Well, you've been with him, so you can you can
35:41
Speaker 2: you have some insight into that. But I think that
35:43
Speaker 2: more to the point though, I think you know, it's
35:45
Speaker 2: hard to argue against the fact that he has rehabilitated
35:49
Speaker 2: himself and he has insight into what he did, and
35:52
Speaker 2: you can never forget that. But I think in relationships
35:56
Speaker 2: like yours, there needs to be some level of forgiveness.
35:59
Speaker 2: And I see families all the time, people cut themselves off,
36:05
Speaker 2: destroy their own lives because of some petty thing. It's
36:08
Speaker 2: a really petty thing. And I think your story demonstrates
36:13
Speaker 2: the power of forgiveness. And I think there's no doubt
36:15
Speaker 2: that you've made him a better person by being in
36:17
Speaker 2: his life. I'd tell you that's.
36:19
Speaker 1: Got something to lose. You know, he's got a daughter
36:23
Speaker 1: and a family. I guess it's only like me that
36:26
Speaker 1: talks to him. So I'm his family and he's my family.
36:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't choose your family.
36:31
Speaker 1: You do not know.
36:33
Speaker 2: Okay, thanks for time day, Stacy.
36:35
Speaker 1: No worries, Thank you very much for having me.
36:37
Speaker 2: That's Stacy, the daughter of Peter Atos, the silver gun rapist.
36:41
Speaker 2: And I've dealt with a lot of offspring. I'm notorious criminals,
36:45
Speaker 2: and they often have a terribly hard time, and often
36:50
Speaker 2: they get judged by the sins of their parents. It's
36:54
Speaker 2: not fair and it's not right. And I really salute
36:56
Speaker 2: Stacy for believing in her father enough to sit down
37:01
Speaker 2: there and have these hard conversations with him. And I've
37:04
Speaker 2: got no doubt it's assisted him in really important ways.
37:09
Speaker 2: So and also I commend her work on the Frankston
37:12
Speaker 2: Tynong murders. Anybody else out there has some information, get
37:16
Speaker 2: in touch. Big rewards I think is a million dollars
37:19
Speaker 2: for each one of those crimes, so you can get
37:22
Speaker 2: in touch with crime stoppers and share your information. One
37:24
Speaker 2: hundred triple, three triples, zero. You can also contact me
37:28
Speaker 2: Adam Shanner writer at gmail dot com. I'm creating a
37:31
Speaker 2: bit of a community around this podcast. You can find
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Speaker 2: me on Facebook lop with the link in the show notes.
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Speaker 2: But look forward to engaging with your next time. This
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Speaker 2: has been Adam shand for Real Crime.
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Speaker 1: I just want to say my mum was a victim.
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Speaker 1: I know there's been a lot of talk over the
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Speaker 1: years that she wasn't a victim. I know that at
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Speaker 1: the time she approached the police because the victims were
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Speaker 1: getting together to have a support network of victims, and
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Speaker 1: she asked if she could join because she considered herself
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Speaker 1: a victim, and she was told, in no uncertain terms
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Speaker 1: that she would be very unwelcome. Now, if there's anyone
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Speaker 1: out there that doesn't believe she was a victim, imagine
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Speaker 1: having someone lie to you, tell you that their name
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Speaker 1: is something that it's not, lie about their career, lie
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Speaker 1: about their whole past. Have a child. She didn't give
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Speaker 1: consent to have a child with the silver Gun rapist.
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Speaker 1: She didn't and it must have been very hard for
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Speaker 1: her to watch me grow up starting to look more
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Speaker 1: like him, take on some of his mannerisms and in
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Speaker 1: a way. I think she's one of the biggest victim
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Speaker 1: because the child is the gift that keeps from giving,
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Speaker 1: isn't it.
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Speaker 2: And every time she looks in your face, she.
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Speaker 1: Dismissed what the women went through.
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Speaker 2: Don't get me wrong, we're not doing that. But every
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Speaker 2: time she looks in your face, she probably sees you dad, yeah,
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Speaker 2: and the choices she made in the past. So forgive
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Speaker 2: her as well. If she's difficult.
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Speaker 1: I love my mom. We don't talk, but if she
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Speaker 1: hears this, I hope she knows that I love her
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Speaker 1: and I love my dad. I love my parents.
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Speaker 2: Stacy's mum, you've heard from your daughter. Make contact please.
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Speaker 2: We'll leave it there. This has been Adam Shanford Real Crime.
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Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode and
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