Latest / Wrongful Conviction / #218 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones

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#218 Jason Flom and Kim Kardashian on Julius Jones · Wrongful Conviction

0:00
Speaker 1: Since our initial release of Julius Jones's story, there have
0:03
Speaker 1: been some exciting new developments. This is a re release
0:06
Speaker 1: of that story with brand new content. But before we
0:09
Speaker 1: reveal the newly discovered evidence and what it means for
0:11
Speaker 1: Julius Jones's wrongful conviction, we need to address the issue
0:15
Speaker 1: that's working its way through Federal District Court in Oklahoma
0:18
Speaker 1: right now. What I'm referring to, of course, is the
0:21
Speaker 1: case that has been to the US Supreme Court that
0:24
Speaker 1: we discussed at length in our coverage of its leading plaintiff,
0:27
Speaker 1: Richard Glossop. If you would like a fuller understanding of
0:30
Speaker 1: why there has been a moratorium on executions at Oklahoma
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Speaker 1: since twenty fifteen, we'll have Richard's story linked in this
0:36
Speaker 1: episode's bio. However, that case obviously directly affects everyone on
0:42
Speaker 1: death row in Oklahoma, including Julius Jones. What's an issue
0:46
Speaker 1: is that both pharma companies and foreign governments are part
0:50
Speaker 1: of a concerted effort to starve America and about nine
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Speaker 1: other countries that still use the death penalty of the
0:57
Speaker 1: drugs that are used in lethal injections. Shortage of approved
1:01
Speaker 1: lethal injection drugs has led Oklahoma and other states to
1:04
Speaker 1: move forward with executions using substitute drugs for the approved
1:08
Speaker 1: ones in their state's protocol, a practice that has caused
1:12
Speaker 1: many botched executions now. Since twenty fifteen, death row inmates
1:17
Speaker 1: have been fighting Oklahoma in court over the Eighth Amendment
1:20
Speaker 1: issue of whether these substitute drugs and the subsequent botched
1:24
Speaker 1: executions they cause constitute cruel and unusual punishment. In the
1:28
Speaker 1: case of Clayton Lockett, who writhed on the execution guaranty
1:32
Speaker 1: for forty three full minutes, I'm going to go with yes,
1:36
Speaker 1: it sure does. On August eleventh, twenty twenty one, a
1:40
Speaker 1: federal judge, Stephen Friat in Oklahoma issued an opinion and
1:44
Speaker 1: said he wants to have a trial on whether the
1:46
Speaker 1: drugs Oklahoma plans to use in executions will cause a
1:49
Speaker 1: constitutionally unacceptable risk of pain. That trial will take place
1:54
Speaker 1: in early twenty twenty two. This drug issue is just
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Speaker 1: more proof that we have no business and no right
2:02
Speaker 1: to continue executing people, just in case the innocence of
2:06
Speaker 1: men like Julius Jones wasn't already enough. On July twenty eighth,
2:12
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety nine, Paul Howell was shot twice at a
2:15
Speaker 1: driveway to Edmond, Oklahoma, in a robbery for his GMC suburban.
2:20
Speaker 1: According to his sister, the shooter was an African American
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Speaker 1: male wearing a red band down across his face and
2:26
Speaker 1: a stocking cap with up to an inch of hair
2:28
Speaker 1: sticking out from the bottom. According to numerous non incentivized
2:33
Speaker 1: sworn Affi Davids, the co defendant in this case, Chris Jordan,
2:36
Speaker 1: has since bragged about being the shooter and framing his
2:40
Speaker 1: former friend Julius Jones on the night of the shooting.
2:44
Speaker 1: Julius was at home with his family. The evening following
2:48
Speaker 1: the murder, Chris Jordan spent the night at the Joneses,
2:51
Speaker 1: which was when he said he hit the gun in
2:54
Speaker 1: a second story call space. Confidential informants in the stolen
2:58
Speaker 1: car trade, including a long time so to Chris Jordan
3:00
Speaker 1: Ladell King, deflective investigators toward Chris Jordan and Julius. Chris
3:06
Speaker 1: eventually gave seven statements riddled with inconsistencies, blaming Julius Jones
3:12
Speaker 1: for the murder. On July thirtieth, police searched at Jones's
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Speaker 1: home and found the gun exactly what Chris Jordan is
3:20
Speaker 1: believed to have hidden it. With nothing presented to defend
3:24
Speaker 1: against the planted evidence and the incentivized testimony of Ladel
3:27
Speaker 1: King and Chris Jordan, Julius was sent to Oklahoma's death row.
3:32
Speaker 1: On this episode, we team up with one of Julius's
3:35
Speaker 1: fiercest advocates, Kim Kardashian, as we speak with his attorney,
3:39
Speaker 1: Dale Bash and his mother and sister, Madeline and Antoineae Jones.
3:45
Speaker 1: This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flopper Today we're here
4:02
Speaker 1: to talk about Julius Jones, who has been on death
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Speaker 1: row in Oklahoma for over twenty years for crime eden't commit.
4:08
Speaker 1: And I'd like to welcome a very special guest. You'll
4:12
Speaker 1: recognize her name and you'll recognize her from having been
4:15
Speaker 1: on this podcast before. Kim Kardashian West, Welcome back to
4:19
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flohm.
4:21
Speaker 2: Hi, thank you for having me again.
4:23
Speaker 1: I can't overstate the importance of you being here today
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Speaker 1: with us, Kim, because if we don't take every possible
4:29
Speaker 1: action that we can, and I mean the audience too,
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Speaker 1: Julius will be executed in Oklahoma as early as this
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Speaker 1: fall for crime we know he didn't commit Kim, can
4:38
Speaker 1: you tell us when you first heard about this case.
4:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, I first started to receive letters. They were from
4:46
Speaker 2: a woman named Terry McCarthy, probably thirty letters from her,
4:51
Speaker 2: and she was kind of reiterating the same information about
4:56
Speaker 2: Julius and mentioned the documentary with Iola Davis. So I thought,
5:01
Speaker 2: I have to look into this. And I say this
5:05
Speaker 2: all the time because we have such an amazing group
5:08
Speaker 2: of people, between you and Scott Budnick, my attorneys and everyone.
5:14
Speaker 2: When all of the big players really feel the same
5:18
Speaker 2: way about a case, I know that we have to
5:22
Speaker 2: be loud, and I feel in my soul that we
5:25
Speaker 2: are early enough because an execution date for Julius hasn't
5:29
Speaker 2: been set yet that I feel like now is the
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Speaker 2: time where we all just have to come together and
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Speaker 2: really make a difference in his life.
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Speaker 1: What about this particular case, about his case makes you
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Speaker 1: so passionate and what sticks out to you the most
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Speaker 1: about Julius's case.
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Speaker 2: There's a few things. Being a young honor role student athlete,
5:52
Speaker 2: you have your whole life ahead of you. Everyone around
5:57
Speaker 2: always says what an amazing person he is that grew
6:00
Speaker 2: up with him, His coaches and then to see getting
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Speaker 2: caught up with the wrong group of people and getting
6:09
Speaker 2: set up. The way he was just really rubbed me
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Speaker 2: the wrong way. That someone's life, a young kid's life,
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Speaker 2: was just taken away. It always goes back to me
6:21
Speaker 2: thinking about what if that was my son? What would
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Speaker 2: I do if my son got set up like this?
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Speaker 2: So we got to fight for this guy, We got
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Speaker 2: to help him get his life back.
6:35
Speaker 1: The next voice you hear is going to be the
6:37
Speaker 1: voice of Dale Bash, an assistant federal public defender who
6:41
Speaker 1: is definitely doing his part to help to unravel this nightmare.
6:48
Speaker 1: When did you get involved with it?
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Speaker 3: In twenty and sixteen, our office was appointed to represent
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Speaker 3: Julius in clemency proceedings.
6:58
Speaker 1: And this really is a terrible I mean, you have
7:01
Speaker 1: Paul Howell, a forty five year old George deacon and
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Speaker 1: business owner, family guy, returning to his parents' home in
7:07
Speaker 1: the Oklahoma City suburb of Edmund from a school supply
7:10
Speaker 1: shopping trip with his seven and nine year old daughters
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Speaker 1: and his sister, Megan Toby in the car. Now, as
7:17
Speaker 1: he was getting out of the nineteen ninety seven GMC suburban,
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Speaker 1: a black man and a stocking cap with about an
7:23
Speaker 1: inch of hair sticking out from the bottom and a
7:26
Speaker 1: red bandana tied around his face. Stepped up to Paul
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Speaker 1: and demanded the suburban and fired his gun twice, mortally
7:33
Speaker 1: wounding Paul. As his daughters and sister ran screaming to
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Speaker 1: the house for cover, the gunman sped away in the suburban.
7:42
Speaker 1: And from what we know now, and remember this is
7:44
Speaker 1: an addition to what was known when we first released
7:47
Speaker 1: this episode, according to three men and counting, not just
7:51
Speaker 1: the original two. These are three men who all knew
7:54
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan in prison and or in jail. And none
7:57
Speaker 1: of these men have been incentivized in any way, okay,
8:01
Speaker 1: and they've all sworn to have been told by Chris
8:04
Speaker 1: Jordan directly that Chris did this shooting and that his
8:08
Speaker 1: former friend Julius Jones was not involved. I mean, that's
8:12
Speaker 1: powerful stuff right there. Okay. But at the time of
8:15
Speaker 1: this investigation, the cops went looking for the usual suspects
8:19
Speaker 1: in the stolen car trade. First, they went to a
8:21
Speaker 1: guy named Kermit Lottie. He led them to laddel King,
8:25
Speaker 1: who was an associate of Chris Jordan, who then led
8:27
Speaker 1: them to Jordan and eventually Julius Jones, But the cops
8:32
Speaker 1: caught Chris Jordan first, Right, So can you walk us
8:36
Speaker 1: through some of the things that Chris Jordan told them?
8:40
Speaker 3: Sure. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. According to
8:45
Speaker 3: Chris Jordan, who is a co defendant in this case,
8:49
Speaker 3: he and Julius were driving around looking for a suburban
8:54
Speaker 3: to jack. They spotted a car, followed it into a neighborhood,
8:59
Speaker 3: and according to to Chris Jordan, Julius jumped out of
9:03
Speaker 3: the car when the car pulled into the driveway and
9:06
Speaker 3: shot Paul Howell. When Chris Jordan was taken into custody,
9:10
Speaker 3: that's what he told the police, and they immediately focused
9:15
Speaker 3: on Julius tunnel vision set in. But what we now
9:20
Speaker 3: know is Chris made seven different statements to the police,
9:25
Speaker 3: and those statements were inconsistent, and at one point the
9:30
Speaker 3: police say, what you're telling us, it's not adding up.
9:34
Speaker 3: We don't have this backwards, do we. So the police
9:39
Speaker 3: knew that there were problems with what Chris was telling them,
9:43
Speaker 3: but the police continued to focus on Julius.
9:46
Speaker 1: And something that really struck me when reading about this
9:50
Speaker 1: case is that, according to the non incentivized witnesses who
9:54
Speaker 1: knew Chris Jordan in jail, prison or both, as well
9:57
Speaker 1: as to statements that Jordan himself if later made to
10:00
Speaker 1: the police. Chris Jordan on the night after the shooting,
10:04
Speaker 1: but before he was arrested and gave his initial statement,
10:08
Speaker 1: slept at the Joneses home. Chris left to Jones' home,
10:12
Speaker 1: which is where he said he stashed the murder weapon.
10:16
Speaker 1: So on its face, the gun being found at the
10:20
Speaker 1: Joneses looks damning for Julius at that time, but now
10:25
Speaker 1: in hindsight, it just further points in the direction of
10:28
Speaker 1: Chris Jordan's culpability.
10:30
Speaker 3: Well, we know that when Chris was interviewed by the police,
10:36
Speaker 3: he was asked, so you hid the murder weapon, and
10:39
Speaker 3: he responded yeah. Chris also told one of the men
10:44
Speaker 3: that he spoke to while in custody in the county
10:47
Speaker 3: jail that he wrapped the gun used to commit the
10:50
Speaker 3: murder and hid it in Julius's parent's house. We understand
10:56
Speaker 3: that Chris was sitting in a police car outside of
11:01
Speaker 3: Julius's house after the police stormed the home and then
11:06
Speaker 3: went looking for the gun and immediately went to where
11:11
Speaker 3: we think Chris told them the gun would be located.
11:15
Speaker 3: We also know that there were other people involved, namely Kermit,
11:21
Speaker 3: Lotti and ladel King, that had a lot to gain
11:24
Speaker 3: by pointing in Julius's direction and away from themselves.
11:29
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about Kermit and Laddell.
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Speaker 3: Kermit Lottie was a man who ran a chop shop
11:36
Speaker 3: on the south side of Oklahoma City and it was
11:40
Speaker 3: a well known establishment in the trade of stealing cars.
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Speaker 3: Laddel King was a close confidant of Kermit's and was
11:50
Speaker 3: known for his involvement in that trade. Ladel King was
11:54
Speaker 3: also a confidential informant and in exchange for providing information
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Speaker 3: to the police, he would be allowed to carry on
12:03
Speaker 3: with some of his illegal activities. At the time of
12:07
Speaker 3: Julius's trial, Liddell King was facing bogus check charges and
12:13
Speaker 3: as an habitual offender, he was looking to twenty years,
12:17
Speaker 3: and in exchange for his testimony, he got ten years probation.
12:22
Speaker 3: Liddell was one of the guys that pointed the finger
12:25
Speaker 3: at Julius.
12:27
Speaker 1: So this paints a pretty strong picture of a sort
12:31
Speaker 1: of a unit.
12:32
Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 1: You had Chris Jordan, who was a troubled kid. You
12:37
Speaker 1: have these two other known criminals, particularly ensconced in the
12:42
Speaker 1: stolen car business, and then you have a car that
12:45
Speaker 1: gets stolen in a violent robbery tragic death. But we
12:49
Speaker 1: know a number of things that would make anyone go wait.
12:54
Speaker 1: I mean, for instance, we know that the number of
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Speaker 1: shellcasing stunted the scene was something that was known and
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Speaker 1: volunteer seared by Chris and his interrogation before the police
13:02
Speaker 1: even asked or suggested it. We know that the witnesses
13:05
Speaker 1: were incentivized. We know that the description matches someone very
13:11
Speaker 1: much like Chris Jordan, who doesn't look like Julius.
13:14
Speaker 3: Megan Toby, Mister Howell's sister was in the car with
13:18
Speaker 3: him when he pulled into the driveway, and she testified
13:22
Speaker 3: that she saw the person who shot her brother, and
13:26
Speaker 3: she described him as African American, wearing a red bandana
13:31
Speaker 3: across his face, wearing a black stocking cap, and half
13:36
Speaker 3: an inch of hair hanging out from under the cap.
13:39
Speaker 3: What's critical about that is Julius wore his hair close crop,
13:45
Speaker 3: very short. Chris Jordan, on the other hand, wore his
13:49
Speaker 3: hair in braids. And how do we know that Julius's
13:53
Speaker 3: hair was short? Ten days prior to mister Howell's murder,
13:58
Speaker 3: Julius got picked up on traffic stop and had a
14:01
Speaker 3: mug shot taken, so there's an official government photo of
14:06
Speaker 3: Julius with short hair, and that photograph was never shown
14:11
Speaker 3: to the jury at trial. We also know that Julius
14:16
Speaker 3: was at home with his family at the time mister
14:19
Speaker 3: Howell was shot and killed, and later that evening, Chris
14:25
Speaker 3: and Julius were supposed to drive down to Norman, Oklahoma,
14:30
Speaker 3: which is about twenty minutes south of Oklahoma City. Julius
14:34
Speaker 3: was at home getting a little agitated because Chris said
14:38
Speaker 3: he would be there early in the evening and Kristen
14:41
Speaker 3: would show up until close to midnight.
14:44
Speaker 1: We also have with us Julius's sister Antoinette and his
14:48
Speaker 1: mother Madeline. Now Here you have a son who is
14:51
Speaker 1: excelling in so many ways, a co captain of three
14:55
Speaker 1: different sports teams in high school, academic scholarship, Oklahoma University,
15:01
Speaker 1: great looking young man with his whole life laid out
15:05
Speaker 1: in front of him, and then everything takes a terrible,
15:10
Speaker 1: terrible turn.
15:11
Speaker 4: It's been a twenty plus year shock, and I really
15:18
Speaker 4: can't often find the words to explain what it's been
15:21
Speaker 4: like we just got blindsided.
15:24
Speaker 1: It sure seems like you went from the American dream
15:27
Speaker 1: to the American nightmare. And let's go to that faithful night.
15:31
Speaker 1: July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety nine. Can you tell us
15:35
Speaker 1: what was happening that night and why and how you
15:38
Speaker 1: know that Julius could not possibly have been there.
15:40
Speaker 4: That was a kind of a busy day for us.
15:44
Speaker 4: I was trying to do Antoinette's hair, I was fixing spaghetti,
15:51
Speaker 4: but Julius was there all day long. They played monopoly.
15:55
Speaker 5: There were a few of us playing monopoly. Julius was
15:57
Speaker 5: there playing Monopoly, And for my oldest brother, Antonio and
16:04
Speaker 5: another young man that was over there, they got mad
16:06
Speaker 5: at me because I gave Guias all my money and property.
16:09
Speaker 5: I had to do that because I had to get
16:11
Speaker 5: my hair done. So it's specific things like that, like
16:14
Speaker 5: I know that it was around Jesus' birthday. Jessus friend
16:17
Speaker 5: had a big chocolate chip cookie that she gave to
16:20
Speaker 5: him for his birthday. Tony kept going in and out
16:23
Speaker 5: of the refrigerator to take pieces of the cookie. And
16:26
Speaker 5: later on that day, my brother Antonio had to go
16:29
Speaker 5: to work. My mother went to go take him to work.
16:32
Speaker 5: Julius looks in the refrigerator and he's like, oh my goodness.
16:35
Speaker 5: He was like, who ate my cooking? And I kid
16:37
Speaker 5: you not. He waited at the back door in the kitchen,
16:39
Speaker 5: pacing back and forth, waiting for Mom to come home,
16:42
Speaker 5: so he could tell that somebody ate his cookie. So
16:44
Speaker 5: I kind of was like, well, you know, I was like, Tony,
16:46
Speaker 5: h your cookie. And so I'll never forget that day.
16:50
Speaker 1: So it doesn't seem like someone who just murdered somebody
16:53
Speaker 1: would be particularly concerned over how much of a cookie
16:57
Speaker 1: was left in the refrigerator or not. I mean, that's
17:00
Speaker 1: just one of many, many things, you know. So July
17:03
Speaker 1: twenty eighth, he's home with you. It sounds like sort
17:06
Speaker 1: of a typical family night. But then things changed dramatically
17:10
Speaker 1: in the next thirty six hours. Right the twenty ninth,
17:13
Speaker 1: Chris is at your home, right, He spent the night
17:16
Speaker 1: that night, which is when he had the opportunity to
17:19
Speaker 1: plant the gun. Do you recall Chris being at your
17:22
Speaker 1: house that night?
17:24
Speaker 4: Thursday was trash day and Jus usually takes a trash
17:29
Speaker 4: out and sometimes we sit and talk on the walkway,
17:33
Speaker 4: but Chris was kind of like a shadow was there?
17:37
Speaker 1: Answer that were you there that night? Do you remember
17:38
Speaker 1: if Chris was at the house.
17:40
Speaker 5: I know Chris was there because I heard him come
17:43
Speaker 5: upstairs and go into the room that was Julius's.
17:46
Speaker 1: The very next day, the police would surround the Jones' house.
17:49
Speaker 1: Julius family was purp walked out of their own home,
17:52
Speaker 1: and Chris Jordan would be in a police car out
17:55
Speaker 1: front to tell them exactly where the murder weapon was hidden.
17:58
Speaker 1: Julius was appointed attorney mister Barry Albert, who was known
18:02
Speaker 1: for his skill and unorthodox but effective courtroom style. But
18:05
Speaker 1: mister Albert he died shortly before the trial, leaving his
18:10
Speaker 1: new public defenders woefully unprepared, so much so that they
18:15
Speaker 1: didn't put on any defense whatsoever.
18:18
Speaker 3: When it came time for Julius to present his case,
18:23
Speaker 3: the lawyers simply stood up and said the defense rests.
18:28
Speaker 3: The lawyers did not put on testimony from the family
18:33
Speaker 3: who would have presented an alibi. The lawyers did not
18:37
Speaker 3: investigate and present evidence from two people who were in
18:42
Speaker 3: jail who didn't know each other and independently came forward
18:47
Speaker 3: and said that Chris Jordan told them that he said
18:51
Speaker 3: Julius up. He told one of the men that he
18:54
Speaker 3: planted the weapon in Julius's house, and he told both
18:58
Speaker 3: of the men that he would be getting out of
19:00
Speaker 3: prison after serving a fifteen year sentence in exchange for
19:05
Speaker 3: his testimony against Julius. The inconsistent statements that Chris made
19:11
Speaker 3: to the police during his interrogation were never explored by
19:17
Speaker 3: the defense when they had an opportunity to cross examine Chris.
19:22
Speaker 1: It's an inexplicable lapse. In fact, it's totally understandable why
19:27
Speaker 1: the jury would have voted to convict. They didn't have
19:29
Speaker 1: any information to work with except what the state was saying.
19:32
Speaker 1: What was it like seeing your baby going through this trial.
19:37
Speaker 4: Well, at the beginning, I was very confident because the
19:40
Speaker 4: attorney that we had, mister Abbott, he was very thorough
19:45
Speaker 4: and he talked to us and he said, I just
19:47
Speaker 4: need to get Chris on the stand. Mister Abbott had
19:52
Speaker 4: a plan before he passed away. The opponent attorneys they
19:57
Speaker 4: wanted more time after he passed away. Then they wanted
20:02
Speaker 4: to immediately start up with trial and everything. And we
20:06
Speaker 4: were there every day. But one of the excuses after
20:09
Speaker 4: miss Sabatt had passed. They said the reason they didn't
20:13
Speaker 4: call us on the standing after they had sentenced Julius
20:16
Speaker 4: because they didn't know we were there. It was just
20:21
Speaker 4: a mockery.
20:23
Speaker 5: I was devastated. I was devastated when I heard the
20:25
Speaker 5: word we rest. I think I was a little older
20:28
Speaker 5: than thirteen, and I didn't understand how you couldn't put
20:32
Speaker 5: people on the stand to help my brothers defense. There
20:35
Speaker 5: was no defense there and that, I mean that, just
20:38
Speaker 5: that pisces me off.
20:49
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss Rifkin, Porton and Garrison,
20:54
Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had
20:57
Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impact. I have full pro
21:00
Speaker 1: bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of our
21:03
Speaker 1: society and in support of the public interest, including extensive
21:07
Speaker 1: work in the criminal justice area.
21:19
Speaker 2: It infuriates me to hear when cases when there's ineffective counsel.
21:24
Speaker 2: It just makes me so mad, especially if it's an
21:28
Speaker 2: appointed attorney, that you think that if you don't have
21:31
Speaker 2: the money to afford an attorney, and so you're getting
21:33
Speaker 2: appointed one, that they're going to be ineffective and not
21:37
Speaker 2: help but actually hurt your case.
21:38
Speaker 1: So much.
21:39
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how I could live with
21:41
Speaker 2: myself if I was an attorney like that. But I think,
21:46
Speaker 2: especially with Julius's case, he just didn't get a fair trial.
21:50
Speaker 1: Bottom line, as we've heard, at Julius's trial, the defense
21:54
Speaker 1: didn't even give the jury much information to work with.
21:57
Speaker 1: But believe it or not, it gets.
21:59
Speaker 3: Even during the trial in the jury room, one of
22:04
Speaker 3: the jurors said out loud, why are we wasting our
22:08
Speaker 3: time here? We ought to just take that N out
22:12
Speaker 3: back and bury him outside the jail, And one of
22:18
Speaker 3: the jurors approached a bailiff, told him what she heard
22:23
Speaker 3: and asked to talk to the judge on the record.
22:26
Speaker 3: The judge sort of dismissed it as well. He could
22:30
Speaker 3: have been talking about Osama bin Laden. We don't know
22:33
Speaker 3: who the juror was talking about. Take the N word
22:38
Speaker 3: out of the equation. You still have a juror who
22:43
Speaker 3: made up his mind and was going to convict Julius
22:47
Speaker 3: and sentence him to death. Throw the N word in there,
22:51
Speaker 3: and the racism is just oozing from this case. We
22:56
Speaker 3: also know that between nineteen ninety and twoenty twelve, there
23:03
Speaker 3: was a study conducted in Oklahoma on race and the
23:09
Speaker 3: death penalty. The authors concluded that an African American male
23:13
Speaker 3: who is convicted of killing a white male is three
23:17
Speaker 3: times more likely to get the death penalty in Oklahoma.
23:22
Speaker 1: So at trial, yet racism incentivized lying witnesses and no
23:28
Speaker 1: defense whatsoever. So Dale, when you took on this case,
23:32
Speaker 1: you guys had your work cut out for you, to
23:34
Speaker 1: say the least. But there was a new law in
23:38
Speaker 1: place in Oklahoma that allowed you to do DNA testing
23:41
Speaker 1: and post conviction, So you tested the red bandana right.
23:46
Speaker 3: It was sitting in evidence for almost twenty years. Doctor
23:51
Speaker 3: Shapiro used to be with the Department of Forensic Biology
23:55
Speaker 3: at the Medical Examiner's Office in New York City, reviewed
23:59
Speaker 3: the DNA report that was produced by body Selmark and
24:04
Speaker 3: came to some conclusions. So one of the things that
24:09
Speaker 3: Megan Toby, the victim's sister, testified to was that the
24:15
Speaker 3: shooter yelled something at her is she was running away,
24:19
Speaker 3: And we identified a stain on the bandana, and we
24:25
Speaker 3: wanted to check if that stain was saliva, and it
24:30
Speaker 3: came back negative is to saliva. So we don't even
24:35
Speaker 3: know if that bandana was the same bandana that the
24:41
Speaker 3: assailant wore, because there's not the saliva stain on it
24:46
Speaker 3: that should be there, because the assailant yelled.
24:50
Speaker 1: Don't forget, this was July and Oklahoma, right, So you
24:53
Speaker 1: do have to suspend a lot of this belief to
24:55
Speaker 1: come up with the conclusion that someone Julius or any
25:00
Speaker 1: one is going to be in an extremely high pressure
25:04
Speaker 1: situation on a very hot day and not sweat or
25:08
Speaker 1: breathe into the bandanna that they're supposedly wearing on their face.
25:11
Speaker 1: We don't know. We'll never know whether the gun was
25:14
Speaker 1: wrapped in the bandana or whether the gun was taken
25:16
Speaker 1: and placed in the bandana by the authorities when they
25:19
Speaker 1: were taking it out. One would hope they would put
25:22
Speaker 1: it in an evidence bag instead, But the state made
25:24
Speaker 1: a big deal about the fact that there were several
25:29
Speaker 1: different people's DNA on this bandana, and that one of
25:32
Speaker 1: the people seems to be somewhat consistent with Julius. Can
25:37
Speaker 1: you elaborate on what that really means, because some people
25:40
Speaker 1: would look at that and go, oh, wait a minute,
25:42
Speaker 1: then you know, I guess I got the right guy
25:44
Speaker 1: after all.
25:45
Speaker 3: Right, case closed, But the testing indicates that the DNA
25:52
Speaker 3: was degraded and was defined as trace DNA, which suggests
25:59
Speaker 3: that the DNA could have been transferred to the item.
26:04
Speaker 3: So the bandana is found in Julius's house, it's handled
26:08
Speaker 3: by the police, it's in his bedroom. It's very possible
26:15
Speaker 3: that any DNA on there that could be consistent with
26:19
Speaker 3: Julius's could come about as a result of the transfer
26:24
Speaker 3: of the DNA.
26:26
Speaker 1: So here's what we're faced with. It seems to me
26:30
Speaker 1: and correct me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts.
26:33
Speaker 1: Julius didn't match the eyewitness description. His hair was short
26:38
Speaker 1: and could never have stuck out from a stocking cap,
26:40
Speaker 1: but Chris Jordan's absolutely could have. Chris Jordan gave a
26:45
Speaker 1: confession that was riddled with inconsistencies and false as he
26:48
Speaker 1: changed his story numerous times. Chris also admitted to planting
26:53
Speaker 1: the gun exactly where the police found it in Julius's
26:56
Speaker 1: house on more than one occasion. There's no salary DNA
26:59
Speaker 1: on the bandana in evidence, and it doesn't seem to
27:03
Speaker 1: be the one that was worn across the shooters or
27:05
Speaker 1: anyone's face anyway. And I'm leaving out other exculpatory stuff
27:09
Speaker 1: Forget the incompetent defense, forget the racial bias, forget the jury,
27:13
Speaker 1: forget everything. Those facts alone would seem to be enough
27:18
Speaker 1: to unravel this. And then you add to it that
27:20
Speaker 1: the only thing connecting him to it are the words
27:23
Speaker 1: of two highly incentivized witnesses, both of whom happened to
27:28
Speaker 1: be career criminals, who were maybe an offer they could
27:31
Speaker 1: almost get refused. I mean, they were given an offer
27:33
Speaker 1: that they would be able to avoid lengthy prison sentences
27:37
Speaker 1: of their own in exchange for their testimony against Julius.
27:43
Speaker 1: Does that pretty much sum it up?
27:45
Speaker 3: That's it? And one would think that, you know, why
27:48
Speaker 3: is Julius even in prison, let alone on death row?
27:53
Speaker 3: But that's not how it turned out.
27:55
Speaker 1: This leads to my next question, Kim, his only contact
27:58
Speaker 1: to the outside world is through letters. Have you gotten
28:02
Speaker 1: letters directly from him or have you corresponded with him
28:04
Speaker 1: in any way?
28:06
Speaker 2: I have, yes, you know, just hearing what he has
28:10
Speaker 2: to say. And I mean, what I can't understand, but
28:14
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for is someone in Julius's situation who
28:20
Speaker 2: could just be so angry at the world. And I
28:23
Speaker 2: don't know how I would act if I was in
28:25
Speaker 2: his situation. But to see the grace that he has
28:29
Speaker 2: and to see how he's fighting through this and won't
28:32
Speaker 2: give up, it inspires me. So I want to fight
28:37
Speaker 2: like I We need him to get out. I mean,
28:41
Speaker 2: just to even know that because he was an athlete,
28:44
Speaker 2: to see a lot of athletes support him and write
28:48
Speaker 2: letters on his behalf now to send to the governor
28:52
Speaker 2: has been so amazing to see. You know, when he
28:54
Speaker 2: was playing ball, Blake Griffin's dad was his coach and
28:58
Speaker 2: is completely in support Julius and Blake Griffin wrote an amazing,
29:03
Speaker 2: heartfelt letter for the governor to see in support of
29:07
Speaker 2: Julius's release. Russell Westbrook. There's been some amazing people that
29:12
Speaker 2: really want to see him released as well, people that
29:16
Speaker 2: grew up there, people that played there. Carmelo Anthony, who
29:19
Speaker 2: played in Oklahoma for a little while. His wife is
29:22
Speaker 2: my best friend.
29:23
Speaker 3: You know.
29:23
Speaker 2: I sent him all the facts and he wrote a
29:25
Speaker 2: letter as well. It's amazing to see the support that
29:28
Speaker 2: has come together. And I hope that everyone really pays
29:32
Speaker 2: attention before it's too late, because we will not go
29:35
Speaker 2: out easy on this one.
29:37
Speaker 1: And we know that the governor of Oklahoma is a
29:40
Speaker 1: guy who cares about criminal justice reform. He's done some
29:46
Speaker 1: positive things, for sure. It would be hard to imagine
29:49
Speaker 1: that he and the members of the Parole Board wouldn't
29:52
Speaker 1: be moved to take action here. Between the outcry and
29:56
Speaker 1: the public, the support of prominent people, faith leaders, business leaders,
30:02
Speaker 1: so many different people, and the facts of the case
30:05
Speaker 1: cry out for justice.
30:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, everyone always asks me like, well,
30:10
Speaker 2: what can we do? And I think the most important
30:13
Speaker 2: thing to do is call the Governor's office and elected
30:18
Speaker 2: officials that can really make a difference, and just be
30:21
Speaker 2: really loud, and you should go to Justice for Julius
30:25
Speaker 2: Jones dot com first of all, look into his case.
30:29
Speaker 2: Everything is on this website, from the documentary The Last
30:33
Speaker 2: Offense with Fiola Davis to where you can sign the
30:37
Speaker 2: petition in favor of Julius, and you can also subscribe
30:42
Speaker 2: to stay up to date on what's going on, and
30:45
Speaker 2: it even gives you a link to email the Parole Board.
30:48
Speaker 2: I do believe that the Parole Board is like in
30:51
Speaker 2: favor of a form. I believe everyone is very compassionate
30:55
Speaker 2: from what I've heard, So I just urge everyone please
30:58
Speaker 2: sign the petition for Julie Jones. If you're moved by
31:02
Speaker 2: his story, I've done it. I believe in him so much.
31:05
Speaker 2: I believe in his innocence. Justice for Julius Jones dot Com.
31:21
Speaker 1: When we initially released this episode, as you heard mentioned
31:24
Speaker 1: several times throughout, there were two witnesses who had been
31:27
Speaker 1: in jail with Chris Jordan, and they are Manual Little
31:30
Speaker 1: John and Christopher Berry. Now since then there's been a
31:33
Speaker 1: third man. Now, mind you, only the state can incentivize
31:38
Speaker 1: a witness. Everybody knows this right. It's totally illegal for
31:42
Speaker 1: anyone but the state to bribe a witness. So these
31:46
Speaker 1: men have nothing to gain by coming forward. In fact,
31:49
Speaker 1: they have a lot to lose. Here's what Manuel Little
31:51
Speaker 1: John said in his two thousand and four sworn Affidavid. Quote.
31:56
Speaker 1: Jordan stated that he felt guilty because he was going
31:58
Speaker 1: to implicate his code of Julius Jones in a murder
32:01
Speaker 1: case to avoid getting the death penalty for himself. That's
32:05
Speaker 1: end quote in Little John's Affidavid. After admitting to hiding
32:09
Speaker 1: the gun in the Joneses home, Jordan stated to Little John, quote,
32:14
Speaker 1: Julius didn't do it. End quote. Julius wasn't there then,
32:19
Speaker 1: Christopher Barry in his two thousand and four sworn affid
32:23
Speaker 1: David referring to what Chris Jordan had told him, quote,
32:28
Speaker 1: he was the actual person who shot the victim in
32:31
Speaker 1: his case. Mister Jordan also said, I'm still quoting that
32:36
Speaker 1: because he was the first person to talk to police,
32:39
Speaker 1: he was getting a deal and would not get the
32:41
Speaker 1: death penalty. End quote. And finally, in March of twenty
32:44
Speaker 1: twenty one, we have a sworn affidavit from Roderick Wesley
32:48
Speaker 1: and he says the following on video about his interaction
32:53
Speaker 1: with Chris Jordan.
32:54
Speaker 6: Me and Jordan had worked together. One day, We're sitting
32:58
Speaker 6: there and I'm telling him about my situation. He pretty
33:00
Speaker 6: much told me, aboy, he is I guess you say
33:03
Speaker 6: he was being sort of remorseful, but it was one
33:06
Speaker 6: of the cases where I'm sorry, but I'm not gonna
33:10
Speaker 6: jump out there and just you know, throw myself to
33:12
Speaker 6: the wolves like that. And so when he ended up
33:15
Speaker 6: breaking it down, it was pretty much like, you know, yeah,
33:19
Speaker 6: I committed the aid that somebody else was getting accused of.
33:23
Speaker 6: You know, he admitted that he won, you know, did
33:26
Speaker 6: kill it, and it wasn't this guy, you know, it
33:29
Speaker 6: was a big decision, is do I jump out there?
33:31
Speaker 1: What?
33:32
Speaker 6: But I looked at it as if it was my situation.
33:35
Speaker 6: I would want with somebody who has information to go
33:38
Speaker 6: ahead and do it, because this is man life online.
33:41
Speaker 1: I mean, what could I possibly add to further proove
33:44
Speaker 1: what we've been all saying all along? Julius Jones is
33:49
Speaker 1: an innocent man on death throw in Oklahoma. Since almost
33:54
Speaker 1: seven million people have signed a petition on Julia's behalf
33:57
Speaker 1: Banker's boxes of signatures were delivered to the Oklahoma Border
34:01
Speaker 1: Pardons in Parole begging for justice in this case. And
34:04
Speaker 1: now since this latest statement from Roderck Wesley, Julius has
34:09
Speaker 1: been granted a hearing. It's a Stage two commutation hearing
34:14
Speaker 1: in front of the Oklahoma Bord of Pardons in Parole.
34:16
Speaker 1: That it's happening on September thirteen, twenty twenty one. But
34:19
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's time to rest or relax. Now
34:23
Speaker 1: is the time to ramp up the pressure. If you'd
34:26
Speaker 1: like to add your name to that petition, it's going
34:29
Speaker 1: to be linked in the bio. Please help us keep
34:32
Speaker 1: the pressure on. And with that we're going to go
34:34
Speaker 1: to closing arguments where of course, first of all, I
34:38
Speaker 1: think all of you, and now we're going to hear
34:40
Speaker 1: from Dale, Antoinette, and of course Julius's mother, Madeline. But
34:45
Speaker 1: let's kick it off with you first.
34:47
Speaker 2: Kim Oh, thank you for having me on here, and
34:49
Speaker 2: thank you for everything that you do and for showing
34:52
Speaker 2: me the way. Seriously, I look up to you so much,
34:55
Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful to you for sharing so many
35:00
Speaker 2: cases with me and that we're able to hopefully open
35:03
Speaker 2: up people's minds and hearts that might have been a
35:06
Speaker 2: little bit closed off when it comes to reform, or
35:09
Speaker 2: might not understood how they could help, and then we're
35:12
Speaker 2: giving them a platform where they can help out and
35:16
Speaker 2: be a part of the conversation and help fight for
35:18
Speaker 2: people that really really deserve it.
35:21
Speaker 1: So thank you Dale, You've done a fantastic job and
35:25
Speaker 1: I appreciate you making the time. I know it's going
35:27
Speaker 1: to make a difference.
35:28
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, Jason. We have a commutation application pending
35:34
Speaker 3: before the Oklahoma Pardon and Parole Board. Julius is thankful
35:39
Speaker 3: for all the support, the prayers, the letters that he
35:43
Speaker 3: has received that is giving him strength. This case got
35:48
Speaker 3: the attention it deserved when Viola Davis and Julius Tennan
35:53
Speaker 3: produced the last defense that put light on this injustice
35:58
Speaker 3: and wrongful conviction. Troubling to me and we should all
36:02
Speaker 3: be concerned about this is that without the last defense,
36:06
Speaker 3: no one would be interested in this case, Julius would
36:09
Speaker 3: have been just another African American man in prison saying
36:14
Speaker 3: he was innocent, one of the four percent, and no
36:17
Speaker 3: one would care. There are thousands of Julius's behind bars
36:22
Speaker 3: today and people should care. And we know you care, Jason,
36:27
Speaker 3: and we appreciate that the struggle isn't over. Thank you
36:31
Speaker 3: very much.
36:33
Speaker 1: Why don't we save mom for last, because you know
36:36
Speaker 1: she's mom? So Antoinette over to you.
36:39
Speaker 5: So first I would say that my brother, Julius there
36:43
Speaker 5: is Jones. He did not kill Paul. How my brother
36:49
Speaker 5: is a human being. He is not a number. When
36:53
Speaker 5: we consider people human beings and not just numbers, and
36:55
Speaker 5: we really take into account all the facts. I'm just
36:58
Speaker 5: asking them to correct it's wrong. I'm asking you to
37:02
Speaker 5: look at all of the key points in this case.
37:04
Speaker 5: I'm asking you to understand that my brother never got
37:08
Speaker 5: a fair defense, he never got a proper defense, He
37:11
Speaker 5: never got a jur of his peers. He never got
37:15
Speaker 5: a chance to voice what happened to him from his side.
37:19
Speaker 5: And I'm just asking you, as a human being to
37:23
Speaker 5: understand and take my brother in consideration as a human
37:26
Speaker 5: being and not a number. He is not a person
37:29
Speaker 5: that will take a life. He is a person that
37:30
Speaker 5: will protect a life. He is a person that cares
37:33
Speaker 5: about everybody's well being. To this day, he cares. He
37:37
Speaker 5: cares more about how everybody else is doing than how
37:42
Speaker 5: he's doing. Inside. That's who my brother is. He's a
37:44
Speaker 5: person that cares. He's a loyal person. He is a
37:48
Speaker 5: person that loves life. I never gave up and I'm
37:52
Speaker 5: still not gonna give up. We shall not give up.
37:54
Speaker 5: We shall not rest. Even though the defense rests for him,
37:57
Speaker 5: we shall not rest.
37:59
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, And now for the final words, Madeline.
38:02
Speaker 4: It First of all, Julius is a good person. He's
38:07
Speaker 4: very kind, he's loving, compassion, and a lot of times
38:12
Speaker 4: he will hurt himself to keep from hurting someone else.
38:16
Speaker 4: And that's the reason he's in predicament. He's in now.
38:21
Speaker 4: And I just want to say to the bole board
38:27
Speaker 4: that one science does not fit all and that I
38:31
Speaker 4: would like for them to take careful consideration concerning Julius
38:36
Speaker 4: and to look at what he will be able to
38:40
Speaker 4: contribute to society for if they spare his life. We
38:45
Speaker 4: just need to try to get things right because when
38:49
Speaker 4: justice is covered up, it stays covered for so long,
38:53
Speaker 4: but it will either burn through or it will grow.
38:57
Speaker 4: And right now I feel like that justice is growing
39:00
Speaker 4: because it wants to be heard and it wants to
39:05
Speaker 4: be fulfilled what it's really meant to be justice for all,
39:10
Speaker 4: not just for some of us. And you know, freedom
39:15
Speaker 4: is worth more than money. My biggest joy is to
39:20
Speaker 4: help my son home and to be about the things
39:24
Speaker 4: that he's dreamed and longed to want to do. And
39:28
Speaker 4: I thank God for this opportunity today to be able
39:33
Speaker 4: to express so many things that I've held in today.
39:37
Speaker 4: I really thank God for you, Jason. I thank God
39:40
Speaker 4: for people like you.
39:51
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrong for Conviction with Jason Flamer.
39:54
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the
39:57
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.
40:00
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Clyburn,
40:03
Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always,
40:07
Speaker 1: is by three time Oscar nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
40:10
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
40:13
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
40:18
Speaker 1: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and
40:20
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one