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Just Transition Labour Centre: Interview with Waheed Hoosen · TIPS Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: All right, so my name is Tobani.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a multimedia intern at TIPS.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we are here at the Just Transition Labor Center today.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: I am with Wahid.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct, Wahid Hussein, yeah.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I hear from a trade union called Hospersa, which is an affiliate of Fedusa, but I'm also one of the vice presidents on the FedUSA structures responsible for youth and climate change.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So this is my domain.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Nice to meet you, sir.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Likewise.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, so my first question is why do we have the Just Transition Labor Center and why is it important?
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: From our perspective as a federation, I think it's important because this is like it's been said already, I think, in some of the presentations, this is the platform we have as labor.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: There is no infrastructure that where Labour has an opportunity to research and produce evidence-based arguments in terms of, for example, collective bargaining purposes.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: So the Just Transition Labor Center gives us that platform where through research and through presentations, we can then find a way of channeling the work that you do through the federations because we know that decisions in terms of climate change and like the Climate Change Act, etc., in terms of legislation, regulations.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And the just transition is only possible through the employer-employee relationship type of platform.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: So even though the JTLC is here, but your work goes far beyond where you sit.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: It'll go into boardrooms, it'll go into negotiating tables, it'll go into policies and procedures that are negotiated, it'll go into collective agreements, and ultimately it may even go into legislation.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: So the impact is very vast.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: And with the federation being, you know, with our NedLex structure and unions and federations being a part of that structure with civil society, business, and government, and with the, you know, the Presidential Climate Commission and other climate change structures, we are going to make a significant impact in terms of addressing the issue of a just transition, especially when it comes to workers, because we know that the most impacted of all the structures are going to be the communities and workers.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: And in most instances, workers are the breadwinners in the communities.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: And if we don't have a, it's like it was being said in there, let commodity be a lesson to us.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Comarti be a lesson that we don't repeat.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Let it be a learning curve that when we decommission other power plants, for example, and we've got affiliates in those areas.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Let it be done in a manner where we mitigate and we are resilient in terms of job losses and create other opportunities because there is opportunities to be created, like through the electric vehicles, commissioning, etc.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: So we must look at climate change in the broader context of just addressing the climate issues.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's workers that are going to be fundamentally affected by the whole transition.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's got to be a just transition because, like they say, there's no jobs on a dead planet.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: But also, you can't be living on a planet that you're trying to save with no jobs.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's got to be a balance somewhere.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So as a federation, we are really taking this climate change issues very seriously because we understand the impact it will have on our economy, firstly, and us as workers as a whole.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it is important, and the just labor transition has a fundamental role to play in that whole process.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: And we really appreciate the work that the labor center is playing in that process because we are part of a process now and a structure where we have information.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't always have the resources in-house, you know.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: At the Federation and Unions, we don't always have the research ability in-house.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And with the labor center being networked with tertiary institutions, universities, etc., it helps with that research.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know, yes, our main learning centers are through universities and through other fora, which then researches things for and on behalf of certain subjects.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: And climate change is a big subject, it's a global subject now.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, the climate finance is a big issue, as we know, because we developing countries don't have the economy to transition, and we rely on donor funding from you know the global north in order to take the issue of a just transition forward.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, the center does play a vital role, and from our perspective as a federation, we want to be part of that process as well.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, as a federation, looking at the JTLC, do you think in terms of priorities that it's something it needs to highly focus on?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I think the areas it's focusing on right now are important.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I think one of the comments made in there earlier on during the previous discussions is where are we going?
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: How are we monitoring what is being put out there?
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: We don't want to create a situation where there's over research, but nothing really happens without research.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's also important that we see some sort of move towards the research that's been done and the issues that are the topics that have been highlighted, and what we need to do as the government, as the country, and with government taking the lead role.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where the big problem is, and that's why I made the comment in there.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Where is government in this whole process?
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: Where is the PCC?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Why hadn't it been given the identity that it deserves?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So government needs to also take a because we say the just energy transition has a bigger impact.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not energy, it's water and security and all those types of other effects that it has, the just energy transition has on the other aspects.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So government needs to take the leading role.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I know there's talk about outsourcing the energy sector, but I mean, what impact is that going to have for the vulnerable groups of society, the ones that are really reliant on government for services.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: So government needs to take the leading role in terms of this process.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And we would like to see, from our perspective, a more integrated role and a closer role between what we do here as federations, what you do as a center, and government as the role players.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know we know that yes, business has a role to play, but we need to drive this process.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And government needs to drive it, and we need to push government.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where we would like to see some sort of focus on is pushing government, where that you know the just labor center also takes government on as a whole.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: We won't be able to get anywhere in terms of climate change if government doesn't lead and take a leading role and as responsive, yeah.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think he's been informed enough, though, maybe by federations to even be able to take a lead?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing the best we can through Nedlack.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: We are doing the work that we I mean, we've got to act now, which we never had before.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: But we are pushing, I mean, there's constituencies that are represented in the PC.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: We are fighting those issues about government come, you need to take the role, you just can't leave it to the private sector to run these topics for us.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we're also saying that civil society is getting frustrated now because they're saying that government isn't really taking the issues seriously when it comes to climate change.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: And we're seeing the impacts, the floods and the droughts, etc.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: So government needs to start mitigating the impact it's having and take a leading role in terms of putting systems in place in order to deal with those issues.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So certainly, yes, we would like to see a little bit more pressure from the center being put on government, using the wings of the union movement and the federations to do that.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you see the future of the JTLC?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I know they were talking about obviously, you know, once the climate change or the issues of this topic that we're talking about has been somewhat achieved.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: We know it, but it's going to take a long time.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they talked about the independence of the labor center on other areas.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: The issue of workers in the economy is I don't think there's words to explain the impact we have.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there will always be a role and a need for a center like this when it concerns workers.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because there will always be issues around what workers do in the workplace that needs to be looked at.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: And research is, you know, quite an important aspect.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe today it's climate change, maybe tomorrow it's you know different types of work streams that need to be looked at.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: If we are transitioning to other types of economies, if our economy is trying to transition to another type of economy, because maybe, I mean, we know the electric vehicles and uh, you know, the solar power stations and you know, more greener power stations are the way to go.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: But maybe once those are achieved, there'll be other areas of our economy that needs re-looking at.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly that yeah, the labor center has that role to play, and I can see it staying in here for a long time because it really helps us as unions and as as federations as well.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: I have one last question.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: In all the discourse about just transitioning, do you feel like we focus maybe more on highlighting these are the problems, these are the issues, what about the workers, what about sustainability, what about upskilling or reskilling?
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: But do we ever present solutions?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: More especially in terms of if we're looking for maybe for technology in the green space, are we having conversations where saying we wanna manufacture our own technology that mitigates climate?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: We wanna generate our own technology as also another mechanism to create jobs.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you feel like we focus more on highlighting problems or more of what are the solutions?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what is your take?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're like like you say, we're more complainants than solutions.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the problem here is there's been discussion around, we know we all know what the problems are.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think research has told us, and it's not just our research, international research has told us what the problems are with regard to climate change.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's emissions, it's a CO2, it's a C BM issues, et cetera.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have solutions as well.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like we don't have solutions, and there's a lot of solutions, and one of the solutions is to reduce our carbon emissions.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that we've got to move towards, we're a party that agreed to it, and we've got to move towards zero emissions.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the only way we can do that is looking at other areas of the economy in terms of transitioning that, those areas that are highly impacted by that sector, and it's the we all know it's mainly the mining sector and the fuel, the fossil fuel sector.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But the knock-on effect, as you saw in there, CESOL says they only employ 27,000 people, and the impact is half a million of the sectors that rely on CESOL.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a lot more.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost, I mean, what, 20 times more.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll have to look at ways in order to recognize that the climate crisis as a whole is a problem we need to deal with.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: We can't run away from it.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: It has a socioeconomic impact on workers, and we have to find a way where workers can be, whether through training, and that's been the big thing, and that's why the HRTC now has launched its skills program for especially climate change transitioning, where they now will look at programs to train workers so that they can be re-skilled for social protection.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Reskilled and social protection in terms of transitioning from the current jobs what they hold in the economy to the greener jobs that they need to hold in the economy.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there is that move also to move towards.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And we see now, yes, it's taken a year to launch the program, but it's been launched, which is a good thing.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So those reskilling and training programs are on the way to the workplace now.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And we're hoping that with when people are reskilled from what they're doing now in terms of the phasing out of those jobs, they will be reskilled to take on new jobs.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there is work that's been done, and we are part of that process.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And certainly from the PCC, we are pushing the agenda of making sure that no work is left behind, no community is left behind while we transition.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_00: So the focus is on those areas.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: As much as yes, we complain all the time and unions do that, we know that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: But we are also focusing on saving jobs and obviously making sure that whatever jobs you look at in terms of the green economy are decent jobs.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Not just we doing it for a quick fix, if you want to call it that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's got to be the decent job program that's gotta be run, and we've got to maintain and have some comfort that our labor laws are still protected for the working class.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because we don't want to really do away with the rights that we've gained over the years in terms of our labor rights.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got to have jobs that subscribe to the labor laws that we have, and that also we transition the economy at the same time because we know that if we continue on the trajectory where we are now, we are going to have a loss of jobs.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be no jobs.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: We need to move with the world, we need to move with transitioning, and hopefully, like we say, it will be a just transition for workers, especially.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Wahid, for your time and good luck with your work.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, thank you very much for the opportunity.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, we got a lot of hard work ahead of us, but nothing is impossible, as we saw from the industrial revolution at the time.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: All right then.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Bye bye.