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Rethinking Accounting Education in the Age of AI · The Accounting Podcast

• Attention: This is a machine-generated transcript. As such, there may be spelling, grammar, and accuracy errors throughout. Thank you for your understanding! Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:00:04] So when you talk about it and right now, that is the way. So that's what I'm doing. We're talking about a hypothetical potential possibility. I have no idea what that would look like. Yeah I have no idea what the next six months when we talk about AI, what that will look like at all, let alone the next two, three years. David Leary: [00:00:28] Coming to you weekly from [00:00:30] the OnPay Recording Studio. Blake Oliver: [00:00:34] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the show. I'm Blake Oliver. David Leary: [00:00:37] And I'm David Leary. Blake Oliver: [00:00:38] And we are joined today by Mfon Akpan, Doctor Mfon Akpan. He is an Assistant Professor of Accounting at Methodist University who is passionate about incorporating new technologies, such as AI to provide students with up to date and relevant learning experiences that will help them thrive in our rapidly transforming world. I love that Doctor Akpan, welcome [00:01:00] to the show. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:01:01] Hey, uh, Blake and David, thank you so much for having me. It's an honor to be here with you. Yeah, it was perfect timing. David Leary: [00:01:07] So, Blake, do you remember an episode 374 a couple weeks back? I brought the article to the show about the Australian professor that said I can't teach accounting. And then I went on to ChatGPT, and I basically created an accounting 101 course in, like ten minutes. Right? An entire course with with debits and credits and the tables and profit loss and balance sheets and the T accounts and the whole nine yards. Well, the literally the day after we recorded that episode, [00:01:30] um, Doctor Hopkins assistant, somebody reached out to us unrelated to our episode to speak. Hey, it's an accounting professor that wants to speak about AI. I was like, come on, let's do an interview. And that's where we're at today. Blake Oliver: [00:01:42] Oh, that's so great. Yeah, I would love to learn about, uh, you know, how you're using AI in education, Doctor Akpan. And, uh, you know what you think it's going to do? Because I feel like just in the in the year that I've had access to it, I feel like it's going to transform everything. It's just it's revolutionary. [00:02:00] Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:02:01] It it it has. And this that's some great points. It has transformed a lot. And I think the one thing to think about number one is how it works. So thinking about that article and going through it. The article was right. If you just feed in questions you'll get that output. However, is that the right way to use, uh, let's say [00:02:30] ChatGPT in that in that case or ChatGPT for. Well, there's something called prompting. And that's the secret sauce to these language models. And there's something called zero shot prompting. Few shot prompting and five shot prompting. And this increases the effectiveness or the output of the language model. So in that research article, uh, [00:03:00] from from what I read in the, uh, experiment, they took a question, put it in to get an answer that's called zero shot. So in terms of effectiveness, that's at the the lowest tier. So if you look at many of these comparison. So when they compare let's say Claude and and GPT four or uh Gemini, you'll see the tests are done with few shot or [00:03:30] five shot. That means they've given three examples of the question that they'd like it to answer. Um, before they give it the actual question that increases the effectiveness of the output. So simply put, it's not a search engine. Yeah. So you're not just going to type things into it like a search engine. You know, you've got to work on your prompting. You've got to give it examples. So you have to work with it to get the best output. [00:04:00] So if you think about it, maybe it's right 85% of the time. So how do you get it better? They call that fine tuning to get that other 15% better. How do you fine tune it? You give it examples, you give it more details. So so you work on your prompting, have a conversation with it. So you work with it to get better output. Blake Oliver: [00:04:22] Well, and maybe this approach of asking questions like the type of questions you would see on the CPA exam, isn't [00:04:30] even the right approach for evaluating whether these tools are good at teaching accounting. Because when I use ChatGPT to learn something, I don't just take a problem like problems in real life, never present themselves like they do on a test, right? That's not how I'm asking it for help. I will simply describe I'm having this struggle. I don't know how to do this. Can you guide me into how to do it? And a great example was, uh, I was I was booking a payroll journal [00:05:00] entry, and it's been a long time since I had to do that. And I had the payroll register from our payroll provider, and I dropped that PDF in to ChatGPT, and I said, hey, you know, based on this payroll register, can you guide me as to how to enter this transaction into the accounting system? And it did a fantastic job, right. And it didn't get everything perfect, but it guided me to, uh, getting to the correct answer. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:05:27] That's good. And I think that's the key [00:05:30] point because it it helped you. You were more efficient. It got you to it a lot faster. And I think many times we focus on the negative. So just like I said, it may it may get 85% right, but then 15% wrong with a hallucinations. And we may tend to focus on that 15%. But what about that 85%. How is that moving us forward. And then the the other I think key is finding [00:06:00] ways to add ChatGPT or other language models into your workflows. So figuring out how you can use it even if it's 10%, if it makes you 10% better, 15% better, that's a great thing. So I think focusing on on on that point, I use the analogy you can do math in your head, right? But if you had a pen and paper, it makes things a lot easier, [00:06:30] right? Do some math with a pen and paper. Right. And then, okay, you've got a calculator that makes things even better, right? So you do the math. So look at it as a tool and something that can push you forward. David Leary: [00:06:43] Love that analogy. That's great. So how are you using AI to do your job as a professor? And then also as a follow up question to that, how are you utilizing it to teach students or help students learn AI? Yeah, accounting students, accounting students. Let's make sure. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:06:59] I'm going [00:07:00] to give I'm going to give a plug to Wiley. Um, but before I do that I incorporate I assignments, um, for example, in my auditing course, I give the student they have to perform a risk assessment. So I have them use Claude to, to perform their risk assessment on a particular, um, on a particular company. So and I have like a table. And what's funny [00:07:30] is that. I show him, I say, well, hey, you know, if you do this, if you choose the I option, all you got to do is put in this table, tell it to fill out the table, and then I click enter and it's done within seconds. And then I see everybody's eyes light up and I say who's going to use uh, Claude. And everybody's raising their hands because it looks so fast and so quick. And, uh, the last auditing class I taught, I had one student said, no, I'm not doing [00:08:00] it. I just want to I want to go in there. I want to look at everything on my own and do my own research. But the feedback later on was the students were saying, okay, we did it. It helped us. It made things really fast, but we still had to go back and check everything. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:08:16] So again, similar feedback you had, Blake. It was a great tool. It made us more efficient, but we still had to go back and check everything to make sure everything was was okay. So to answer that, [00:08:30] giving them exposure to it, uh, my shameless plug, uh, Wiley, uh, has asked me to, uh, create the AI activities for their financial the Kimmel financial accounting book. So I'm working on that right now, putting together a group activity. Well, three activities per chapter that instructors can use for each chapter in the book. So it's about 22 chapters in there. Uh, the first part of the book is principles or financial. The second half [00:09:00] is managerial. So it's a combined book. So they've got me doing that. The challenge with that and to to add to that is this thing is changing. And I was talking to my, my one of my colleagues at the university about this project that I'm working on because I was worried. So while he asked me to do this and I'm like, well, wait a minute, you know. Bart was here. Now Bart is Gemini. You know you got ChatGPT. For that, you [00:09:30] got 3.5 turbo Copilot. What am I going to do? Right? Blake Oliver: [00:09:36] We just got cloud three that just came out. Now, everything that I've said over the last six months is obsolete. Yeah. How do you keep it up to date? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:09:45] Yeah. So that's that was the that was the conversation we were having because, uh, she was saying, oh it'll be easy. You'll be fine. I'm like, well, no, this was bothering me because I'm like, this is changing. So I had to go back and I took an agnostic [00:10:00] approach. So I tried to to eliminate platforms and names. I use prompts I have to go in, I test the prompts on Gemini and I test them on, uh, GPT 3.5, cloud three, etc. and copilot to see what the output is. But but I think at this point it's being very agnostic. Um, meaning these things change so quickly [00:10:30] and we don't really know how these updates are going to, to work out, uh, and how soon they're going to come around. Um. David Leary: [00:10:39] So there's a good book. Blake Oliver: [00:10:41] Well, I was going to say, um. David, do you want to stick on education or do you want to go more? David Leary: [00:10:47] I don't know. Another thing on education, we've seen some surveys and there's arguments that with AI tools are going to not they're going to cause people to not to use critical thinking. They're going to cause people to not learn skills. [00:11:00] What are your feelings on the actual education of people that are using AI to either learn or do their jobs? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:11:08] Well, just to clarify, what do you mean by skills? So when you say skills, what? David Leary: [00:11:12] Well, like all the grunt work you may have done as a entry level accountant at a big firm, maybe is now done by AI. Are you going to learn those skills? Well, it's not my argument. I think these are arguments that are this out there. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:11:28] To to counter that things [00:11:30] change. So I'm not going to date myself. But when I was in college, one of my professors was saying he used an actual journal, you know, then there's Excel. So you're going to, you know, think things change, technology systems improve. And the reality is you've got to you got to move forward with with the systems and the technology. The reason I was asking about the skills, I think what's going to come more at the forefront is being able to communicate. [00:12:00] So having that, being able to communicate talk. So some of the soft skills are going to come to the forefront. Um, as well as having to adapt to change, which I think is already here. However it's moving at a faster pace. What do I mean by that? So I before I came here, I was I teach a class in the the business analytics [00:12:30] department. We use Microsoft Power BI. They update power BI just about monthly. Right. So so it's you know some of the updates could be big. Some of them can be, uh, minor, but it's changing. Right. So you think about the course of a year. Same thing with this. I think the only thing is there's that uncertainty. We don't know how much, you know, GPT 5th May come out or 4.5. We don't know how big of an update that [00:13:00] will be or how much that will change things, um, moving forward. So I think that skill of, um, approaching things from a lifelong learning standpoint, being comfortable with change, um, I think that's that is going to be very important moving forward. Definitely. The fundamentals are going to be there as technology because it has flaws. But the other thing to think about this is [00:13:30] the worst it will be. So today is the worst it's going to be. Tomorrow is going to get better you know. So they're going to keep improving this thing. So and that's going to happen. But I think I think definitely fundamentals will always be important. Um but other skills will come up to the forefront. Blake Oliver: [00:13:50] One of the main criticisms of traditional education colleges, universities and especially accounting education is that and I hear this from firm owners all the time. [00:14:00] Accounting students, accounting grads are not showing up at firms with the skills that they need to do their jobs effectively. They have some theoretical knowledge, but they have very little or no practical experience. They can't do a tax return. They can't create financial statements. Um, you know, what do you say to that Doctor Ackman? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:14:22] I say, everybody I know at KPMG, KPMG's invested billions. Everyone I know KPMG, Deloitte, [00:14:30] uh, PwC, they're all in on AI and they're looking for ways to get people to become more efficient and move things forward faster. So, um, I get it that there may be issues there, a skills gap, but at the same time, what I'm hearing from my friends who are in these firms, they're all in on on AI and having, uh, AI [00:15:00] a part of workflows and looking for ways to increase efficiencies to get things done way faster. Particularly in audit, but. Blake Oliver: [00:15:09] I'm not even talking about I. This was a problem before I. Oh right. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:15:12] Oh okay. Blake Oliver: [00:15:13] Okay. My question I'm, I'm saying, I'm saying just in general, uh, is traditional education preparing accounting graduates to do the work that firms need them to do? It doesn't seem like it is. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:15:27] And when you said. When you said that, what? What was [00:15:30] the you said they're not able to prepare tax returns or what what was the. Blake Oliver: [00:15:35] Basically that that these grads come into firms. Right. And they're useless. They don't know how to do anything. They have to be trained on how to do everything. Uh. Some of them don't even know their debits and credits properly. And you know, I was a career changer. So I went through my accounting education sort of later in life. And I was shocked, honestly, at how little practical [00:16:00] application there was in my classes. It was so much theory, very little, um, application. And so I totally understand why firm owners complain that students come out of these degrees and they don't know how to do anything in a firm. Right. Accounting is a very practical profession. Right. And it used to be that you learned accounting on the job. And we didn't go to school for five years to become CPAs. It was, uh, taught more like a trade. But that's not the case anymore. [00:16:30] And I wonder if that's part of the problem. What do you think of that? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:16:34] That's a tough question. And. And you're asking accounting educator. Blake Oliver: [00:16:40] Um, yeah. I'm telling I'm challenging you, Doctor Akpan, because, you know, accounting education costs a lot of money, right? We're asking these students to go and to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt, in some cases for an education that seems to be declining in value. So I'm challenging you to justify what you do. Is [00:17:00] that fair? Am I being unfair? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:17:01] No. Well, it's a fair question, but I would say number one across the board, it depends on the program, depends on the field, depends on the size of the firm. What firm. What are they getting into. So that that I can push back on that. Uh, there as a blanket statement is there is there uh, have I heard what you stated about their issues about, uh, students coming in? [00:17:30] Yes. Have I talked to individuals at big firms at the big four? And have they talked to students? Said, well, what do you need to know? I've had, uh, friends of mine at big, big firms say, well, look, we'll train you. Come with the basic skills. We'll train you on what? What you need to know and what you need to to do. So I've heard different sides to it. Definitely. I've heard your side to the to the equation. Um, [00:18:00] can I give you I would say, I would say, I would say it's more of a nuanced question, but go ahead. Give me. Blake Oliver: [00:18:05] An example. So so here's the example. Like in Minnesota there's a movement right now in the state okay. To eliminate the requirement for 150 hours of education five years. Right. And restore this option for for and if you look at the communications from the state society there and Gen Leary, who leads the largest accounting firm in the state, and other folks who were quoted in these press releases and the news coverage, they all [00:18:30] say that there is no noticeable difference between an accounting graduate with five years of education and one with four years of education, right? So that fifth year of education is adding in their mind zero value. So my question is like, why does it take five years to educate CPAs and why does it why shouldn't it take even less? Why shouldn't it take three years? Why shouldn't it take two years? Right? Why does it take so long to teach people the theory of accounting? And we're not even teaching them any practical skills when [00:19:00] we do it? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:19:01] I think you're kind of saying two things. So one, the assumption is that everyone who goes to school for accounting is going to take the CPA route, and that's not always the case. So I get the 150 hour rule, but that's tied to the CPA exam. So you're kind of if you're asking the question about this, the 150 hour rule to take the CPA exam, that's one question. [00:19:30] Are you talking about someone getting into the accounting profession? Not all. Not everybody. It may be depending on which university it may be, 30% of the students, 20%, 10% that actually even sit for the CPA exam. Is that a good thing? You may have a small well. Well, yeah. Why not? It is. It is a good thing not not everyone has to to be a CPA. Right. And you also have to think about accounting is a broad field. So that's why I kind of push back on that because [00:20:00] you have you have uh, not just public accounting. So not everybody is going to go into public accounting. And then you got to think about also, you have right now you have a lot of people who are in public accounting are leaving public accounting to go into adjacent fields like business analytics. So they're moving into different fields. And there's another issue on the public accounting side where they talk about the hours and the pay. So that's another another issue there. So I think [00:20:30] I think that question kind of kind of kind of ties into different areas as well. David Leary: [00:20:35] Like I heard okay. Accounting graduates. From University of Arizona to be our interns, right? They never saw QuickBooks. They were never exposed to anything in the real, real world. Accounting, like accounting. They just never saw it. They couldn't do a reconcile like they could do it. But they completely missed the concept of why you even reconcile. And I just expected more. Right. Like from [00:21:00] an accounting I'm talking about. And one went and back and got her master's and like she literally got all the way into a master's program and missed the whole concept of what reconciling is. Right. And then that's I think the that's just one example of somebody I heard, but that's the vibe you kind of hear from lots of ferm owners is like, people just don't have the practical skills to start working on day one, you know? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:21:21] So so my next question would be, what's the percentage of those students at that university that sit for the CPA? What's the percentage that go into [00:21:30] public accounting? What are some of the jobs that they go into once they, they leave? Uh, the university? Blake Oliver: [00:21:36] I mean, shouldn't every accounting grad understand how to do a bank reconciliation? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:21:41] I agree, I agree, but you're saying different things. You said the CPA. So you're saying going one route. But accounting is a very broad field. Yeah. So so for example I've got most of my students, I've got students, um, I've [00:22:00] got one student who works, a former student who's at Deloitte working in tax. I've got another student works for Army Audit, another student, PwC. Um, they work in audit. You know, I so I have other students who have no interest and to to tell you the ones who are in public, okay, they're moving towards the CPA. But beyond that, many of them, we talk about it. Some [00:22:30] of them, they don't have an interest to move forward, uh, for the for the CPA. Blake Oliver: [00:22:34] So let's talk about the CPA then. Right. We got this fifth year requirement. Do you think we should keep this fifth year requirement, or do you think we should have four years plus two years of experience? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:22:44] I think the fifth year, if you're asking me, I think the fifth year requirement is good. I don't I don't think it's a bad thing. I think the issue is with the pay. So and what I mean by that, from my conversations with partners [00:23:00] and managers and public firms, the big issue is keeping people right, so they may get people there, but people leave because they can go into, again, adjacent fields, or they can move into different areas that pay more money. Right. So I think that is the challenge, because if you think about it, okay, great. You get into public accounting, you may have a clear path on where you're going to go as far as where you're moving up. But [00:23:30] the pay and the hours of work, you know, you're working a lot more. You might not get paid as much if you're in another field, so it's not as attractive. Blake Oliver: [00:23:42] Surveys of. Accountants and CPAs show in multiple states that 80% support changing the 150 hour rule and going back to 120. And I think a similar percentage say that it doesn't add any value. They don't see a five year [00:24:00] accounting grad as having noticeably more skills than a four year accounting grad. Like these are surveys by Arizona, Minnesota. You know, other states have done them. I can't remember off the top of my head. Right. So the firm owners, right, the customers who are basically, you know, hiring your grads are saying that they don't see the value. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:24:21] Yeah, but you just said that the students aren't learning enough. So you want them to have less school instead of more school. So you're saying to drop [00:24:30] the hours and, uh, this this is giving them more hours? Blake Oliver: [00:24:33] I'm wondering, you know, what I'm wondering is if if the the time they're spending in school is not very well spent. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:24:38] Oh, I see what you're saying. Blake Oliver: [00:24:40] I see what you're saying. In five years, we can't teach somebody how to, you know, be able to do a bank reconciliation or even understand the concept of why it's happening. Like why? Why is there such a disconnect between the theory of accounting that is taught in schools and the reality on the ground? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:24:58] Yeah. I don't think there's that that [00:25:00] big of a disconnect. I'd like to see the data on, on on that across the board, but I don't think there's that big of a disconnect. David Leary: [00:25:08] So to swing this back to some extent, back to I, we're all in agreement that I could improve your efforts 25%, 30%, 40% reduction in efforts for the work you want to do, possibly. Right. I mean, we just saw, um, JPMorgan Chase has some tool that's helping companies. They're replacing 90% manual efforts. 90%. Right. So [00:25:30] so instead of a five year accounting degree or just degrees in general in colleges, as professors use AI, more students are using AI more. Could you do you think education could be accelerated to where now somebody could get the equivalent of a five year, 150 hours in two and a half? Because the the content's up to date faster, they're learning faster because the AI tools do you foresee like a future where maybe if everything else is becoming more efficient, education does as well. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:25:58] I could see education becoming more [00:26:00] efficient. Um, how that would carry over. I couldn't say at this point, but I could I could see it becoming more efficient. Blake Oliver: [00:26:09] Like. It just shocks me that we are still measuring education in terms of semester hours, which translate roughly to the hours that a student is in a classroom. And this, to me, seems very similar to how firms measure employees based on timesheets and hours that they bill. Right. We are tracking inputs and not outputs. So [00:26:30] why are we still saying that? If you spend five years. Learning, accounting or five years getting an accounting degree. You know, you're 20% more knowledgeable. Like just because you spent more time on something doesn't mean that you learned more. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:26:46] That's true. But what's your alternative? Blake Oliver: [00:26:49] Well measure people based on their skills. I feel like the problem with traditional education is, you know, we measure people based on the time they sit in a classroom, and we don't measure them on what they actually know [00:27:00] when they come out of it. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:27:01] When you say when they come out of it. So, I mean, you're getting grades, you're getting grades, you're taking exams all across. You've got to progress and move forward. But you're talking about as far as once you graduate, you get your your degree. Is that what you mean? Blake Oliver: [00:27:17] Yeah. I mean, we have this CPA exam, right? Which theoretically measures your knowledge. And if you spent your time well in college, then you should be able to pass this exam. And yet we have an entire industry [00:27:30] dedicated to preparing people to pass this exam. You would think that if you graduate from school that you wouldn't need to go. Then take Becker's, you know, 3 or $4000 course to be able to pass the CPA exam. And if you are getting that knowledge from Becker right, then maybe you don't need the like maybe we could just have Becker teach people how to be accountants, and they could do it in six months. Right. Why does it take so long? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:27:54] So, so your your alternative is that, uh, instead of getting [00:28:00] a degree, we go to Becker and we take a course and then and then sit sit for the the is that I'm. Blake Oliver: [00:28:06] Saying that maybe maybe that instead of like, getting ours on a transcript and and certain categories and that determines whether or not you get a degree that maybe we could actually with. I test people for skills and so it doesn't matter like if you if you, if you know your debits and credits, why not test out of it? Why why do you have to sit in a classroom for a whole semester if you can master that skill, or [00:28:30] you can master that set of knowledge faster? Like this was always the problem for me as a student, right? Um, Doctor Akpan is, you know, I was at the top of my class in most of my education. And the way classes are taught is, you know, you got this bell curve of abilities in a classroom, and you have to teach to the middle, right. So you are. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:28:51] Really. Blake Oliver: [00:28:52] Right, don't you? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:28:53] Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead, go ahead. Blake Oliver: [00:28:55] Yeah. So so basically the top 10% and the bottom 10% are really not well served [00:29:00] by this traditional model of classroom education, because the people who can learn faster are held back. And the people who are struggling to keep up get left behind and often in many cases, right. So it's very inefficient in that respect. It works for maybe the middle 80% but not the outer 20. I could change all. Speaker4: [00:29:17] Yeah. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:29:18] It could, but we're not there yet. But I see what you're saying. So you're looking at something where you have something that's on your own pace. Yeah. Why not? So so so so in other words, if you can move at a faster [00:29:30] pace, you move ahead at a faster pace. If someone's at a slower pace. So it adapts to your, your level. Yeah. Right. Blake Oliver: [00:29:37] Wouldn't the ideal situation be like let's say I'm your student doctor Akpan. Right. Instead of putting me into a classroom with a bunch of other people who may not be at my ability, what if I could just learn individually one on one from you? I could probably go faster than in five years, right? Maybe I could learn. Speaker4: [00:29:54] In. Blake Oliver: [00:29:54] Five years what you teach to many students in two years. So why are we using [00:30:00] time? Right. Why are we measuring people in terms of time? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:30:04] You could. But then. Then there's some other things that you're missing out on because you're working by yourself. You're missing out on the team work. You're missing out on the, uh, building other soft skills around, uh, that that you would need later on. So, yeah, there's pros and cons, but I get what you're saying. You're moving at moving at your own pace, so that makes sense. There's no. But there's, of course. Blake Oliver: [00:30:27] In soft skills that I have ever heard of in accounting education. David Leary: [00:30:29] Program. [00:30:30] It's not it's not part of the requirement. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:30:33] No, no. But many times they're, they're embedded. So you have team projects. You give presentations. Oh God. Blake Oliver: [00:30:41] Team projects. That was always my least favorite thing because I ended up pulling well pulling I ended up pulling dead weight. Right. David Leary: [00:30:49] Team project. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:30:50] Well that that. Well, you learned something there, right? Right. Yeah. Well, I learned you know. Blake Oliver: [00:30:55] I learned that I don't like team projects. That's what I learned. Speaker4: [00:30:58] Well well yeah. [00:31:00] Yeah. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:31:01] But it it exposes you to that. So you learn something. You learn. You don't like team projects. That's not your thing. But at least you you you you you are able to. In other words, you're not you're not siloed and you're not by your yourself. Even if so, let's say, for example, to to your point. So if I'm teaching okay, I'm teaching face to face. Let's say I'm teaching an online course. Asyncronous. [00:31:30] Right. So you I'm not in the course. I'm still looking for ways to foster collaboration between the students. You'll have things like discussion boards where everyone has to communicate with each other. So so there is some sort of component of. Or you may have a team project that you're working on online. You're not meeting in person, but you still have that that aspect there. Blake Oliver: [00:31:56] I, I'm wondering if I could completely disrupt [00:32:00] traditional education, because when these chatbots get good enough and they're trained on specific bodies of knowledge, every student can have an individual tutor. And that's the best way to learn, right? The original model of education was like Socrates and Plato in either individual instruction or small groups. And it wasn't a classroom with 100 people and one professor. And we could go back to that with AI. David Leary: [00:32:27] But you could. Yeah. Because, uh, doctor, I could [00:32:30] load up an AI engine and it could be the act, be an AI and his students, because you only have so much time of office hours, right? You can't meet with every student for two hours a day, but you could get your knowledge squished into an AI bot, and you could now have your students really interact with you deeply, well, deeply. You know? And today it'll be better tomorrow, right? Every day it's going to be a little better. But that's kind of a way for you to scale professors, to scale that their skill sets. Speaker4: [00:32:55] I, I wouldn't like that. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:32:59] I wouldn't like [00:33:00] that. And I'll tell you why. And, and I was just having a conversation with a student about this earlier today. We were preparing he was interviewing me. So students are preparing the marketing material for our business school. So they've got students working on this. They're interviewing professors. And they were asking me about some of the things that I liked about, um, our accounting department. And one of the things that I really liked about the our accounting department [00:33:30] is that we have a smaller class size, so it's max and principles, about 30 students in upper level. It's about half that. So about ten, you know, 10 to 15 students. So I know all of my students. Why is that important to the students. Well, if they're going to get a job they're going to need a letter of recommendation. They're going to go to grad school. They're going to need some sort of reference or a letter of recommendation. So I know them so I can [00:34:00] I establish a relationship with them. And that's one of the the things that I take joy in doing is writing letter of recommendation. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:34:08] Or if students are interested in public accounting, introducing to someone who I know and I actually know the student. So it's not that oh, okay, I can they've interacted with a chatbot. I've never talked to this person. I get to know them. Same thing. Former student I [00:34:30] can connect that former student that I know with a current student. And I'm able to talk about the strengths and weaknesses and hey, are they a good team player? So one of the questions, are they a good team player? Do they prefer to work from home? Do they want to come into the office? How have you seen them in this situation? How do they handle problems? Right. So I'm able to answer those questions then help them outside of the classroom. So I get the efficiencies. [00:35:00] There's pros and cons to that I get it. But then there's also things outside of that that I believe will still be around, still have uh, value. So so I get that. But the data is yet to be seen. Blake Oliver: [00:35:15] It's interesting that none of what you mentioned has anything to do with the actual knowledge that is transmitted to the students. Right. Okay. Well, what I have to intermediate accounting, for instance. Right. I need to learn amortization and depreciation. [00:35:30] Right. Okay. Uh, why does it make sense for me to go into a classroom with 30 other students, having read a chapter in a textbook, listen to you lecture. Right. And then we ask questions. Go home, study, take a test. Like why is that the best way to learn? Perhaps there is a better way and I will, uh, create that alternative. It's very. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:35:57] No, I never I never said that. I [00:36:00] never said it was the best. What I did say was there's pros and cons. So when you talk about it and right now, that is the way. So that's what I'm doing. We're talking about a hypothetical potential possibility. I have no idea what that would look like. Yeah I have no idea what the next six months when we talk about I what that will look like at all, let alone the next two, three years. But [00:36:30] what we're doing right now and what I'm doing, that is what we're doing. And again, I agree, I didn't say it was the best, but there's pros and cons to it. So again, on your side I'd like to see the data. What is the data to say. One thing is better than the other. And we don't know. It's hypothetical. Yeah. And based on your, uh, theory I get what you're talking about. The efficiencies. So I can see that definitely the efficiencies, the values with [00:37:00] it. But also on the flip side, there's got to be some, you know, some negatives to it. So there's positive and negatives to it. Blake Oliver: [00:37:08] I think one of the positives will be that it will lower the cost of education, which has become completely unreasonable. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:37:14] That will have to. That would be amazing. That would. And this is. Speaker4: [00:37:17] Amazing. Blake Oliver: [00:37:18] This goes to your point about the salaries, right? You say we need higher salaries. Well. How do we control that? One thing we can control is the cost of education. We can reduce the requirements to [00:37:30] sit for the CPA exam by getting rid of the 150 hour rule, which lowers the cost of education, right? That improves the return on investment of an accounting degree for a future CPA. It's the same impact, right? You you raise the salaries, you lower the cost to become a CPA. It both affect the ROI calculation. But, um, let's talk about the salaries issue. How do we improve salaries in the accounting profession, doctor Akpan. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:37:57] Well, I think it's pretty [00:38:00] easy to allocate more money to the to the associates. And I think with, with all of the technology, I mean because not just I so you've got, uh, power, we've got power BI, we've got Tableau, we've got all types of software that is made. If you're specifically talking public accounting or you're mentioning QuickBooks, etc., that's made things more efficient. So pass some of that over to the, uh, employees. I think that [00:38:30] would be uh, I think. Blake Oliver: [00:38:32] But we got QuickBooks. We got QuickBooks 20, 30 years ago. Right? That hasn't happened. Yeah. Like the the partners, the partners at big firms make. I think I just saw a survey over $800,000 a year. Speaker4: [00:38:43] Yes. Blake Oliver: [00:38:44] The biggest firms. Speaker4: [00:38:45] The yes, the. Blake Oliver: [00:38:47] Associates who they are hiring are making starting salaries of 60, $70,000 a year. Speaker4: [00:38:53] Right. Blake Oliver: [00:38:54] So they could share the wealth if they wanted to, but they don't. And I don't blame them for not doing it right. Like, why should they [00:39:00] do it if they don't have to wait? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:39:01] That's a different that's a different question. You asked me what they should what should be done. That was my my answer. Speaker4: [00:39:07] So your answer is yeah. Blake Oliver: [00:39:09] Your answer is share the wealth, right. Yeah. Speaker4: [00:39:11] Pay them more. Blake Oliver: [00:39:12] Right. But yeah, but how do you can't make private. Speaker4: [00:39:15] Business I didn't see. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:39:17] I, I'm not saying I can make them but you ask me what. Well yeah. Well that's that's it. So I want. Speaker4: [00:39:24] To talk about. Blake Oliver: [00:39:25] I want to talk about how do we actually change the situation. Right. Like that's not going to work. Just saying pay them more doesn't [00:39:30] work. The AICPA has actually been saying that and it doesn't happen. Yeah. David Leary: [00:39:33] The business model though, right? I mean, in a way, Docker Afghan setting these students up for failure by letting them use Claude to do an audit that's going to get them to take a five, ten, 20 hour job down to 45 minutes, and now their billable time sheets going to be 45, and they're going to look in the traditional firms. They're like, that's a bad employee. They only have one hour of billable time. Like in a way, you're kind of setting them up to be bad employees in the current business model, right, of accounting firms, which is. Speaker4: [00:39:59] Yeah, the [00:40:00] faster you get. Blake Oliver: [00:40:01] The fewer hours you bill and the less money you make for the firm. Speaker4: [00:40:04] Well, that's one way. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:40:05] To look at. Or the faster you work, the quicker you finish one project and move on to another. Speaker4: [00:40:10] Right? But the firm gets paid. Blake Oliver: [00:40:12] Based on the hours that you put in your. Speaker4: [00:40:13] Timesheet. Smartsheet. David Leary: [00:40:14] Yeah, or. Blake Oliver: [00:40:15] At least that's how they view it, right? Speaker4: [00:40:18] Well. Well. Blake Oliver: [00:40:19] So what about this idea? Doctor Akpan, I have an idea for how we could actually improve starting salaries or how we can improve work life balance. Right? Basically. Well. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:40:27] See, see, you're throwing in these [00:40:30] extra things. So you said salaries and then you said work life balance. Blake Oliver: [00:40:34] So everything's connected. Everything's connected here. Right. And so we have when we when we talk about the job in accounting of associates, there's, there's two at least two components. One is how much they are paid and the other is how many hours they work. Okay. And and you can change both of those. Right. So if you increase the salary and you keep the hours the same, now you're making more per hour. If you reduce the hours now you're making and you keep the salary the same, now you're making more per hour. [00:41:00] And that's what really matters in the end, isn't it? If I'm if I'm that to me anyway, that's what matters. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:41:07] So if you have a choice. So let's say for example, you have a choice. You can go and work at a public accounting firm, or you can work as a business analyst and make more money initially getting out of school. And you don't have to to eventually take the CPA exam. So to your argument that 150 hours [00:41:30] and go back to school, right. More potentially. So let's say the firm is going to pay for it, you know, but you still got to go to school, you still got to pass this exam, or you can get out of school and go into a, I'll just say an adjacent field. You can go into another field outside of accounting and make more money. Blake Oliver: [00:41:47] And work less hours. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:41:48] Off the off the potentially less hours, but. Speaker4: [00:41:51] Potential money for sure. For sure. Well, okay. We'll give it. Blake Oliver: [00:41:55] Let's be honest here. Speaker4: [00:41:56] We'll give it that. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:41:57] We'll give it that, we'll give it that. So you have that [00:42:00] choice. So talking to students because I'm around students, that other option for many of them is more attractive. Speaker4: [00:42:11] Yeah. So. So does that make so. Blake Oliver: [00:42:13] Yeah. Yeah. So so how do we make it counting. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:42:15] So going so going back to what I was saying. Money. So. So what they're looking at. Okay, I'll give you the hours. I'll give you that one. But initially they're looking okay if I go this way. Ooh, [00:42:30] I may not have to pay for it, but I've got to study some more. I've got to take an exam. I'm working more hours. I'm making less money. I've got to go through these different hurdles. Right. These hurdles. Or I just go over here and I'm making more money. I don't have to go to any more school. I don't have to take a test. And I can keep moving and maybe. And usually what I'll see, I'll stay here for maybe 12 months, maybe 18 months, and then get another position and make more money and then get [00:43:00] another position, another 12 to 18 months and make more money and have experience. So again, that's where the money side of things comes in. I give you the work life balance point, I see that, but normally the conversations I'm hearing is around the money. Speaker4: [00:43:18] All right. Blake Oliver: [00:43:19] I will give that one to you. So then that brings me back to my question, which is how do we actually increase salaries other than wishful thinking? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:43:27] Well, I tell you. Well, you said, how do we increase [00:43:30] salaries that firms pay more? So they have to have a focus on paying more. Speaker4: [00:43:35] And but. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:43:37] If I'm going to compete, if. Blake Oliver: [00:43:38] I'm a firm owner, I'm just going to use. Speaker4: [00:43:39] I. Wait wait wait. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:43:40] So when I talk to. So when I talk to partners. Yeah. And their big issue is the turnover. So they get people who come in, they get experience and they leave. They, they they leave, they go. What I was told they go to tech firms, they go to other, they leave public [00:44:00] accounting. Yeah. To make more money. So again that's what I'm hearing from the students and that's what I'm hearing there. David Leary: [00:44:08] So what I'm hearing is leaders at accounting firms don't understand simple economics 101. So they got their accounting degrees. They took jobs accounting firms or senior partners at accounting firms. They don't understand supply and demand. The reason these people are leaving it could be work life balance. But if it's just the financial part, yes, if you don't pay more, you're not going to have bodies. Speaker4: [00:44:27] It's I think work. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:44:29] Life balance plays [00:44:30] plays a big part in it. But the money. So what I'm hearing is the money. They come in the turnover is they leaving because money. Speaker4: [00:44:39] So you know the. Blake Oliver: [00:44:40] Big firms are not hurting for people. They have plenty of people who want to go work at Deloitte, KPMG, PwC, EY. No problem. Right. They it's the smaller firms that are hurting for talent. Speaker4: [00:44:52] But but from. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:44:53] What I'm understanding with the big firms is keeping the people there for the long term. So yeah you're [00:45:00] right. Speaker4: [00:45:00] That's not their business model. Blake Oliver: [00:45:01] Their business model is bring people in for 2 or 3 years, work them to the bone, and then they leave, and then they get new graduates that buy in to the value of the big four on their resume who do the same thing. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:45:14] But ideally, they'd like you to be their associate senior manager and to to move up the ranks. They like you to stay there. Speaker4: [00:45:22] Pyramid. Blake Oliver: [00:45:22] It's it's up or out. Right. The pyramid. Well doesn't not everyone can stay at the big four. Most people leave. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:45:29] Not [00:45:30] everyone can stay. But for what I'm hearing is that people are leaving and they would like people to stay. So they they have turnover, they'd like people to stay. And the reason they're leaving is money. Speaker4: [00:45:43] Right. Blake Oliver: [00:45:43] But but so the the model is. Speaker4: [00:45:48] I they want I understand I understand. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:45:50] The model I understand that. But I'm telling I'm telling you what what what I'm hearing. Okay. So you were asking me where am I getting this about? They need to pay more. I'm getting [00:46:00] it from what I'm hearing, managers Big Four students. Same money. That's where I'm getting a little a little bit about the the work life. That's that's a little bit is there about that. But the primary thing is money and the and and when you look at the attractiveness of those of those roles again so you're talking about 150 hours. You're talking about the CPA exam. And you've got a choice money right now. Or maybe I get more [00:46:30] money later, but I've got to do all of these other things. The immediate, uh, gratification is, is usually there. Blake Oliver: [00:46:37] So here's one thing we could do that I think would actually increase salaries. Tell me, force the firms to increase salaries. Uh, yeah. Stop exempting accounting grads, associates from, uh, overtime wage protections. So basically require firms to pay time and a half for hours over 40 in a week. It would require it would force [00:47:00] them to hire more graduates. It would raise salaries. Speaker4: [00:47:05] Okay. Blake Oliver: [00:47:07] Right, because people would be getting paid extra money for the 60 hours they're working in the week or the 70 hours. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:47:14] But what about the work life balance part? Blake Oliver: [00:47:16] Well, it would improve that too, because firms would have a financial incentive to keep hours at a reasonable level. I don't understand why, as a profession, we think it's okay for people to work 60, 70, 80 hours in a week. It's unhealthy. Even if you're sitting at a [00:47:30] desk. It's not healthy to do this. And we simply accept it as the way things are in this profession. It seems wrong to me. You know, as somebody and I say that as somebody who used to buy into this work hard mentality, and I have sense of thanks to COVID. Like many people realize, there's a whole world outside of work. And that my life is much better when I balance my work, my family, my friends, my exercise, all of that. But we don't do that in accounting. [00:48:00] We have six months out of the year in which we do nothing but work. Speaker4: [00:48:05] Yeah that's. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:48:07] Interesting. So talking to managers partners, some of the feedback is that the associates they feel. Speaker4: [00:48:19] Uh. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:48:20] They want to go into the office because they feel trapped sitting on teams all day or, you know, being at home. They want the interaction. So that's interesting to to [00:48:30] hear that. I think, um. Oh, God. Yeah. Speaker4: [00:48:32] I could see being. Blake Oliver: [00:48:33] Trapped on a zoom call or teams for 12 hours a day would be my nightmare. Speaker4: [00:48:37] Yeah. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:48:38] So, so yeah, I, you know, so I hear these arguments that individuals actually want to go in the office, they want to be around, they want to be around other people. But okay, I see that I get it. Blake Oliver: [00:48:52] But what about what about the 40 hours in a week? Right. Why is it okay that in accounting we tolerate this? Speaker4: [00:48:59] I don't think it's okay. [00:49:00] Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:49:00] I don't think it's okay. I don't think it's okay. Speaker4: [00:49:05] Um, so. Blake Oliver: [00:49:05] So maybe, you know, our leadership, the AICPA, should advocate for eliminating these exemptions for accounting professionals. Like, why why shouldn't accounting professionals, you know, have a 40 hour workweek, just like we created those the 40 hour workweek for factory workers. But we don't do it for accountants. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:49:26] So okay, so so that's good for so what's the so [00:49:30] what's the good and what's the bad with that. Blake Oliver: [00:49:32] Well I think the good would be that, you know, uh, if firms want people to work more than 40 hours, then those people would get paid for it right now. Speaker4: [00:49:40] Right? Blake Oliver: [00:49:41] Right now, if I'm a partner, let's say I'm a totally selfish partner at a big four firm. Speaker4: [00:49:46] Well, that's just, I'm assuming to say, say selfish. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:49:49] That's not fair to say selfish. Blake Oliver: [00:49:51] No, no, no, I mean, look, I'm a I'm a business person. I'm operating my practice to maximize my profit, okay? Which is fair, I think. I think we all agree [00:50:00] that the purpose of a business is to make money, is it not? Right? We are accountants here, right? So if my goal is to maximize the profit of my firm, then I have every incentive to hire graduates and work them as many hours as I can get them to work. So that creates a very negative perception of accounting. And you just have to go on social media to see it, right? People are unhappy because they're being. Speaker4: [00:50:24] Do you like it? Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:50:24] Do you like accounting? Blake. Speaker4: [00:50:27] Doctor. Blake Oliver: [00:50:28] This is the crazy thing. I [00:50:30] came into accounting as a career changer because it would give me flexibility. It would allow me to make a lot of money and do what I want. I could work as many hours as I wanted, and that's because I work in this area where I can be self-employed, I can work when I want, and so it's crazy to me. It's crazy to me that we have this whole 90% of the profession that doesn't get that, because it's totally possible. Accounting is the most flexible career in the world, potentially, but we make [00:51:00] it one of the most difficult. And I don't have any idea why we do this. I mean, actually I do. It's the business model, right, of the big firms. Speaker4: [00:51:07] I love it. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:51:08] Uh, but the key word is the big firms. So you can always maneuver into another area. Speaker4: [00:51:15] Right. Blake Oliver: [00:51:15] But where are you sending where are you sending your graduates? David Leary: [00:51:18] But that's the trouble. I feel like the system is built to fill those big firms, right? Blake Oliver: [00:51:22] The universities. Speaker4: [00:51:24] Funnel. Blake Oliver: [00:51:24] Their graduates into this system. Speaker4: [00:51:26] I think the. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:51:27] Standard is set at the CPA level. [00:51:30] So that's considered the highest standard. So that's what we work towards again. So again I was asking you the question is what is the percentage of students who are going in accounting major that are actually going towards public accounting. It's not 100%, but it's if you think about it could it could be around 20%, could be around 10%. And it also depends on the institution. Blake Oliver: [00:51:56] So my understanding is that like two thirds of accounting [00:52:00] graduates end up going into audit at big firms. That is where the bulk of our graduates go, because that's where the jobs are for them. When they come out of school and they work there for a couple of years, two, three years, and then they leave. And that's always been the situation. And that's how the system is set up, right? These large firms make donations to universities they fund in a lot of cases, chairs of universities. And they, they, they, they donate [00:52:30] and they recruit. Right. And so the whole accounting education system is set up to funnel graduates into big firms on the whole. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:52:39] I would say. The the system what we teach to. And that is the standard. The public accounting CPA is the standard that we we go to. Yeah, but not all of the graduates, not all of the students. I would I would have to say maybe 20, 30% uh, [00:53:00] at my institution is probably maybe 15% will actually sit for the CPA exam. Speaker4: [00:53:07] Really that let. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:53:08] Alone work for. Well, yeah, because they're working in other fields. Yeah. So so I have some students that work in public accounting. I have many students who are working. They do work in audit, Army audit, so they work in other areas. Um, another student is is looking to work in government. So there's different areas that you can work in. So I [00:53:30] mean I get it, but. Speaker4: [00:53:32] Well, and. Blake Oliver: [00:53:32] Maybe that's the solution, right. Is instead of sending students into big firms is send them elsewhere. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:53:39] Didn't say sending so so the so when you think about curriculum the standard is set towards when you leave you'll be able to uh move towards the CPA exam. So that's the standard. So across the board. Speaker4: [00:53:54] But you're saying you're saying your curriculum was. Blake Oliver: [00:53:56] Your curriculum is set for the CPA, but [00:54:00] only 15% of your students are pursuing that. Speaker4: [00:54:04] Yeah. Isn't that a problem? Blake Oliver: [00:54:05] Like, the curriculum doesn't seem to be lining up with what the students are doing? No. Speaker4: [00:54:09] No. Maybe that's the. Blake Oliver: [00:54:10] Reason. Maybe that's the reason ferm owners are complaining that the students aren't ready. Is is what what what what is being taught is not what we actually need. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:54:18] Well, your thesis is that every accountant needs to be a CPA, but that's not the case. Speaker4: [00:54:24] Oh, no, I don't I don't agree. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:54:25] You know, I. Blake Oliver: [00:54:26] Don't agree with that. I don't think every account needs to be a CPA, but I am a CPA [00:54:30] and so I'm invested in protecting the value of it. And I think the problem is the problem is that. Students don't see the value in the CPA anymore. They don't see that traditional path as being appealing. And so we're declining. That's why the number of CPAs is plummeting. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:54:45] So why is it not appealing, Blake? Blake Oliver: [00:54:48] And you said it yourself. It's low salaries. Speaker4: [00:54:52] I said high, I said. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:54:54] So you're agreeing with me? Speaker4: [00:54:56] Well I said, I said. Blake Oliver: [00:54:57] It's low salaries. But I also said it's the long hours. And [00:55:00] I also said it's the excessive education. Speaker4: [00:55:02] To get there. Okay. Blake Oliver: [00:55:04] Right. So you've got three things working against you. You've got high cost of education, you've got poor work life balance and you've got low salaries relative to other things you could be doing. It's it's that's the reason it's not just one thing. It's a confluence of things that are causing people to say, why would I want to become a CPA working in public accounting? Speaker4: [00:55:23] Okay. Okay, I agree with that. David Leary: [00:55:27] So we're coming up on a full hour here. So I'm going to [00:55:30] wrap this up with the final question. I have. Blake Oliver: [00:55:32] Really enjoyed. Speaker4: [00:55:32] This. I just went on it's. David Leary: [00:55:34] Been this is good. It's been great. So doctor, if there's other accounting professors that might be listening that are not using AI or GPT type tools in their current, um, educational endeavors, what advice would you give them? Like where should they start? Obviously get your book that's coming out but or your course. But how else would should they do this? Speaker4: [00:55:52] Well, it's it's, uh. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:55:55] Well, I do have a book. I do have a book coming out with, uh, Doctor Scott Dell. [00:56:00] Uh ChatGPT. And accounting. So that's coming out. Speaker4: [00:56:04] Um. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:56:05] The key thing is to start using it, I would say to, to start using it, uh, start understanding it. One thing. Learn how to prompt. So learn what prompting is. Know that it's not a a search engine. The other thing is and I get this a lot. So I do webinars um, for a lot of CPAs [00:56:30] CPE and they don't want to they don't want to have anything to do with it. So the one thing I say is, well, okay, fine, you don't want to have anything to do with it, but you should know about it, because if you got employees, they're probably using it. Your competitors are probably using it. Your clients are probably using it. So you need to understand what's out there and what's in the market and how it's working. So you should at least have some sort of working understanding of it. I think that [00:57:00] is the key. The other thing is to understand that. The lifelong learning piece. There's, um, a book by Steven Johnson Where Good Ideas Come from. And in there he talks about this rule, the 1010 rule. So he talks about, uh, prior, it took ten years to develop technology and then ten years to adopt it. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:57:28] So let's say the color [00:57:30] TV took ten years, about ten years to develop and then ten years for it to be widely adopted, that that world does not exist anymore. And just like we were mentioning at the beginning of the conversation when we were talking about, uh, this the project I'm working on with, uh, uh, Wiley, you know, Bard was at, uh, eight months ago, there was Bard. Now it's Gemini. Right. So then we had, uh, ChatGPT 3.5 [00:58:00] the turbo. So it it's constantly changing. So really you have to be able to adapt. Um, and I phrase, uh, becoming technology agnostic. So in other words, focusing on things that you can learn that carry over to all of the areas, such as prompting, right, or understanding what are the key features? How does this thing work? You know, and what if I learn how to use, [00:58:30] uh, Gemini what can I do on Gemini that I can do on ChatGPT? So, so understanding the the the overview of the technology. Blake Oliver: [00:58:40] Doctor Akpan, it's been great talking to you. Thank you for going over with me. Uh, as you can tell, I'm very passionate about this subject and you are too. So it was it was really, uh, a privilege and an honor and, uh, hope to have you back on the program for more debates. Speaker4: [00:58:58] Yes. Dr. Mfon Akpan : [00:58:59] Thank you so much, Blake. [00:59:00] And it it's been great. It's been great. And I appreciate the points that you brought up, um, particularly about the profession and what they call the pipeline issue. So I think that is that was very good. Appreciate it.