Latest / Non-Billable Hours / The #1 Thing Big Law Partners Regret Not Doing Sooner: Building & Maintaining Relationships (w/ Eva Wisnik) | Law Student Mentorship Series

Transcript

The #1 Thing Big Law Partners Regret Not Doing Sooner: Building & Maintaining Relationships (w/ Eva Wisnik) | Law Student Mentorship Series · Non-Billable Hours

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: What was the the number one regret or thing that partners mentioned as it had to do with networking that you think would be useful for people to know early on?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: So in the three plus decades, I've been working with attorneys originally as a head of recruiting for two law firms in New York City and now as a consultant to over 120 law firms.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's just fascinating when I'm teaching associates how to manage their careers, how to create new opportunities at different stages.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: What I hear when I go back to the partners who are clearly were successful enough to make partner, they say, I wish I had maintained my relationships with the people I went to law school with, the people I knew early on in my career.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: That is a really big regret.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And do you think my theory on that is probably two sides of it.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: One is just raw business development, which for those who don't understand the economics of big law, which is unfortunately a lot of people, I think that's part of the model, is keeping people a little bit in the dark.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: But business development and origination is a huge chunk of where partners make their money.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I would imagine it's easier to build that connection with a 10 dec with a decade plus of a relationship building versus knocking on someone's door at JP Morgan and asking for work.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then on the other side, I'm sure there has something to do with maybe isolation and more of the human element of wishing they had stayed in touch.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: But which side do you think it leads towards more, or do you think it's the combo?
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I think I think it's a great question.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think in the context of the training, when this was specifically for a program, I do more for mid-level senior associates on your next level of success.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you create that?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's where I was getting this direct feedback from multiple partners.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: But so I do think it's definitely connected to business development.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: But as somebody who's been studying Louis careers for 30 plus years, I would say it definitely impacts fulfillment.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So to me, a successful career is not just one where you get to make a partner or become a GC, but it's one where you have deep connections because you actually feel safer.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one thing I observed in the all the years I've worked with big law firms is that firms disappear.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I started out as Schulty Rothman's able when I was 25 years old in 1989, which sounds like a long time ago.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: The firm is very successful, very niche, you know.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: Paul Roth started the first hedge fund, very entrepreneurial.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: And as of last year, they disappeared into McDermott.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Then I went to Cad Walder, the oldest law firm in New York City.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I was there as the head of recruiting for a few years before I started this business.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And July 1st, they're gonna disappear into Hogan.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: You can't stop change and you can't stop consolidation.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: But if you have great trusted relationships, you will have always have opportunities.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's gonna be even more relevant in the future.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: As you said, the speed of firms dissolving is really rapid.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember when I was a summer, partners were telling me stories about Dewey and LeBoff, acting like it was like a crazy ancient history thing that would never happen again.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then since then, I think we've had, I mean, stroke and stroke dissolved.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then most of what we're seeing is more the mergers, which are called mergers on paper, but are really acquisitions and little firms get eaten by bigger firms.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that, you know, if I were advising, talking directly to a law student right now, yes, you need to acquire skills, you need to become the best attorney, you need to acquire knowledge, but you have to maintain your relationships.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: And what that looks like is picking out the people you sincerely like.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it ever works if it's not authentic.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: But instead of saying, I'm so busy and I'm starting a career, just you know, putting into your schedule like quarterly, like whether it's, you know, right before certain holidays, you know, it could be fourth of July, then it could be, you know, Thanksgiving, then it could be spring, and just thinking, who do I know that I would just love to stay in touch with?
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that could be text, you know, thinking of how's your new job going?
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: I read about your marriage or that you're moving.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything I could be helpful with?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: But doing that way before you need it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, we could if we plant the seeds and water them and take care of them, they're just gonna be there for us.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't go backwards.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you could try, but if other people have stayed in touch with that classmate of yours and you haven't, and seven years later they're you know, assistant GC or they launch a company or whatever else happens, it's it's gonna feel cringy then.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: You might think it's cringy now.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's not cringy to be in touch.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's cringy when you call when you need something, or also then they've made it, right?
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the earlier you start investing in those relationships, the less transactional it feels, which is why it's important to start when you're a student or a junior.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I know a lot of people have the complaint where it feels transactional or networking is a weird amorphous word that feels like business-y adjacent, and lawyers kind of have a knee-jerk reaction to being compared to business people.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it yeah, it doesn't have to be weird.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's just hanging out with your friends in law school, meeting more people, remembering to stay in touch with folks throughout the years.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I think I mean going to bar review counts as networking.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's if you show up and have it does.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: So let's talk about it from like, you know, how to make this practical and realistic.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that where I love, and I think will probably resonate with people, is make it about helping other people, right?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: So even when early on in my career and I was trying to build a business and a network, and I would go to places instead of thinking, like, oh my gosh, is there going to be somebody in the room who can hire me to do training for them or needs their marketing person, I would go and say, Let me listen and see if there's anybody in the room where I can be the slightest bit helpful.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And helpful does not always mean business.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: It could be that their child doesn't apply to colleges and you love the school that you went to and you're on the alumni committee, or you know, somehow involved with it.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: It could be that you know travel a lot and somebody else is going to Italy and you have this great list of restaurants for them to go to, or if you know you're an avid reader and or you'd love to go to music.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you're listening, people say things that you're like, wait, I I think I can be helpful.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let me send you that link, let me send you that list.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I like reciproc, like people as humans cannot help but reciprocate most people, not all people, enough people.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if you put out the things that are could be helpful to them that they're just kind of it natural for you, it just comes back.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I like that kind of like, how can I be helpful?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: How can I listen and think about it?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe somebody needs an apartment and you're moving with your significant other, and then you, you know, you're like, this is a great building.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_01: Why don't you take over our lease?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Join us in the Hamptonshare.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's every day there are things that we need from other people.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're listening, people just say, you know, is there anything going on in your life that I can be helped with?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: Any resources, books, things gone.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: People like, oh, actually, I was looking for.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then you're like, I actually I don't know that, but let me reach out to somebody who's really familiar with me.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another very, very powerful tool in networking, the best networkers I've ever seen.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And there were a few partners who were like major rainmakers and actually look like they were having fun doing it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: They brought people together.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: So when you're sitting there, if you're gonna go to lunch or breakfast with a classmate from college or law school, or maybe a past internship, think like there's somebody else that should join us.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Or when you're sitting and talking to somebody and say, Oh my gosh, you need to meet my friend, you bring them together and you go too.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: It could be a quick drink, it could be a cup of coffee.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: But the people who become catalysts for relationships and for opportunities, I call them networking gems.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think we all have that ability.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing I just want to kind of address and kind of really dissolve this myth that you do not have to be an extrovert to be a great networker.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know what the most important thing is to be a good networker advisor?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: Not sure.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Listening.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the truth is that being an introvert, which most attorneys are, they're probably better at listening than just talking, right?
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So if you listen, you're gonna hear stuff.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it doesn't happen at the moment, but then you have a conversation with somebody waiting online, you're at a wedding, all these things.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, wow, that person mentioned this.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Let me follow up with them and send this.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's listening and following up that makes the best networkers, not how many people you meet in a room.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that is, but it's not my version of networking.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think remembering little details about people is really key.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's how I've been pretty successful with networking since I was really young.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I would advise people, though I this can feel kind of weird, and I only started doing it recently, but taking notes on people in your life, whether it be, you know, just friends or professional, things like that, it did feel kind of cringy for me in the beginning, but then I just remembered that I I mean, people really do appreciate if you remember things about them.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I at the end of the day, I don't think they care how you go about remembering it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when you go and look at that note, one, the act of taking the note helps you remember it more.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: You might not even need to reference it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: And two, if you go back and look at it, say you are unable to connect with somebody from law school for three or four years, but you come back and you remember that I don't know, their sister was in medical school, and then you bring it up and you say, Oh, how's your sister doing?
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: Did she end up where did she get matched somewhere or how'd that work?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I guarantee you that person is not gonna be thinking, like, oh, did that person that person have notes on me somewhere or whatever?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Just it's just facilitating more relationship building and and keeping everything, you know, yeah, consistent.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, here's the thing.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't care how much AI we have, how much, you know, all the technology in the world, but people want to be seeing.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if you listen to them and you remember something, like you said, you could have write in your outlook under the under notes, you can have that.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: We we do that with our candidates and stuff.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would say that I one of my greatest just natural challenges is I have a really good memory.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it happened, that it really works for me.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But it happened today.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: I was on the phone with a C chief HR person from a law firm where we placed a CMO.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: But we have a couple other candidates in there, and I needed to tell her something confidentially about one of the candidates, which she took very well.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then she mentioned to me that she's having surgery next week.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, oh, you know, we'll be thinking about you.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Is your daughter back from dental school?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Will she be at home?
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: She can't believe you remember my daughter went to dental school last year.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And you could hear just like, so yeah, if you could remember that, and you know, again, people aren't going to see, and especially on the phone with them, or dropping a note.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: I also find, and again, it has to come from a place of sincerity.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: But if anybody is going through a rough time, you know, you hear somebody who lost somebody.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: If you take a moment to acknowledge that and check in with them, I think that that's where the bonds come from.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's where the humanness comes from, too, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so we have all that come happening all the time.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: It just, I think we overthink it and then we don't do anything.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then the opportunity is kind of lost on us.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be microactions.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't have to be big things.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the biggest thing is attending a conference or a meeting or in person.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: But before you do, I think it's so important to identify what's your intention from this.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this morning actually, I did have breakfast with somebody who I placed originally 20 years ago.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: She's now the head of all lateral partner hiring at a major firm.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And she happens to live right where I get off the ferry when I come in from New Jersey.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, What can we make for coffee?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And as I was walking from the ferry to meet her, it was, you know, about an eight-minute walk, and I was like, recalling her all the years I've known her.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: What do I want to, what do I want to ask her of this conversation?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd come in with some intention, still very flowy and sincere, but you know, so I think intentionality is not a bad thing.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's that weird.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's time is valuable.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I say I also want to mention that there's been a lot of research and things that I've been looking into and talking about happiness and fulfillment and career and just in life in general.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it seems like the number one thing that's sustainable outside of wealth creation, everything is just, you know, doing things for other people and feeling like you're useful for other people.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not just a like this networking thing can be viewed in that angle where yeah, you're helping other people, which is great, but you will, I guarantee you, you will feel better if you feel like you're helping lift other people up with you.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just a way better experience for people.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Stephen Shulte was a little mentor of mine, he was one of the founding partners of Shulte You Often Isabel and just an amazing guy, became a professor actually.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: First, he when he was later on in his career, he started teaching a Cordozo and then went out to Stanford to become a professor.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: And he once said to me, you know, if you make your clients your friends, you're gonna have a really long and prosperous career.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, like having had a career I've had, like so many of my closest friends are clients.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I don't just call them up when I need business, but it's it's this kind of synergistic relationship where of course they're gonna be thinking about me, but it's not just about the business transaction, right?
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like I would do anything for them and they know that.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like if they call me up and said, hey, my kid has an interview, can you prep them?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, can you come in?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: I need you to do me a favor, I'd be like, what can I do?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the same thing, right?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because it comes from a it's not a burden, it's not a responsibility, it's like a you just you want to help people.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where the fulfillment comes in.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's profitable, but it's also incredibly fulfilling.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think the symbiosis is really important.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's something that I see with my work all the time that I definitely do not take for granted.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it is replicable inside big law if you do it correctly.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think it takes extra energy.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's better to get these habits semantically.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I know many of our listeners are gonna have are working in law big law or back to head into big law if they're law students.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think the other part of networking or connective thing to networking is mentoring, right?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know any new professional, younger professional, even mid-professional who doesn't want mentors or sponsors.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I think most of us are really bad at being mentees.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I just did a dozen summer associate training programs around the country.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, like, are you willing to be a good mentee?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: What that looks like is that when somebody does offer you advice or takes you near their wing, brings you to a meeting, you need to say, Thank you.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: And here's how this is impacted.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or if you sit with your mentor, a formal mentor, I'm talking about informal mentors too, and they give you advice about which firm to choose or how to handle something, you need to take the time to circle back to them.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if anybody's listening, like who wrote your letter of recommendation to law school?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_01: Do they know where you ended up?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: Who helped you, you know, who was your reference, you know, or you're the intern person, the per do they know what firm you're at?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: And if they didn't, it's okay.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: But but you gotta like circle back with them and don't say, oh, it's too late.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just say, thank you so much.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Here's where I ended up.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: If you keep taking care of those mentors, man, they're gonna be there for you forever.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you those are relationships of people who are maybe more senior, and then you want people relationships with your peers.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: You gotta change your mindset around that because most of school you're competing with your peers, and now you have to be collaborating with your peers, right?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of a different mindset.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: If you make somebody else look good, if you help them out, I have a feeling it's gonna paint spades, right?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not no longer one Valvatorian or one person who can get that great job.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, you know, can both be very successful.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: One of you can go in-house and one of you can stay in a firm or start a business.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: I know all of it could be overwhelming, and we all tend to be overthinkers because the law school really, you know, sets us into that mode.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: One action a day.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: It could be one quick text, one email, you know, following somebody's article that's made me think of you.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm, you know, I was walking down the street, like, I will do this.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: I will be in Madrid, and I walk down the street and I'll see a building with one of my law firm clients' name on it, and I'll take a picture saying thinking about you.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I've done that in Santa Monica.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like just thinking about it.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And people are like, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're in Madrid or Santa Monica.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: But it's more just like I'm thinking of you.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't need anything, I'm not asking for anything.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna check in.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think one action a day.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not hard.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just think people need to the action a day as well.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's a lot of things that people do naturally that they don't give themselves credit for the fact that that is networking.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of students I talk to kind of beat themselves up over and say, I'm not good at networking, I don't know how to do it, or I can't be consistent.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: But then if you actually look at their life and what they're doing, they they are actually doing it, they're just not getting them giving themselves credit.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think on top of adding a little bit more to your to-do list, also go back or be conscious of what you're doing every day, anyways, because a lot of it will qualify and it feels good to feel like you're making progress on that in a natural.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Building relationships is what we're talking about.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: And the only other thing I would say, not to leave on any negative note, is that there's the opposite of networking, which is ghosting.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I just really think like, you know, even if it's uncomfortable to let somebody know you're not accepting their offer or like everybody's got databases now.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody like I see when I was a head of recruiting of firms.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody didn't respond, we put in their never respond to their offer.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: They came back three years later as a lateral, we'd be like, I don't know, would we want to put somebody in front of our clients that never responded to something?
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what if even if it feels uncomfortable, just do it.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it feels uncomfortable to reach out to somebody and they don't respond, it doesn't mean they didn't get your email or your text.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Next time they see them, they may be like, listen, I was gonna write back a long message, and next thing I knew you it got better, but thank you so much for reaching out to me, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: You don't need that many people to be in your network to have an incredible career.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: I agree.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And to even have great clients.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, most rainmakers, they don't have a hundred clients, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So if you want options, if you went to law school because you want options and opportunities, yes, you want to study and be like good at your craft, but you have to have the relationships because they're the fuel of careers.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: If nobody knows who you are, what you do, I think you're gonna be more limited than you think.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: You won't have as many options as you hoped you would have.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I also do think from what I've seen statistically, if you have someone in law school who performed at median or maybe even below, but they were out there building relationships and people think they're a genuine person, that that person is gonna go further ultimately than the person who was cutthroat at the top of the class.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and even in the off chance that that person has some official achievement that looks impressive, I guarantee you it's not really gonna be a fulfilling experience for that person that just clawed their way up and didn't give anything back.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's more important than people realize.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not just like a fringe thing that you can throw in or not throw in.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's integral to your career in the same way that getting good grades are or going to the right firm is.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's I think that's everything that we should probably add to that.