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Creating Disney Magic (with Lee Cockerell) · The Daily Writer

0:05
SPEAKER_00: Welcome my friend.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that you're joining me for this episode of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
0:11
SPEAKER_00: If this is your first time listening, this is a show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: My name is Cat Sanders, and I'm an author, ghostwriter, and college professor.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: And if you're a regular listener, welcome back.
0:27
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me.
0:30
SPEAKER_00: When I say the word magic, what comes to mind?
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Maybe you think of illusionists like David Copperfield or David Blaine.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Or maybe you think of movies where magic plays a big role in the plot, like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: But for many of us, whenever we hear the word magic, we think of Disney.
0:48
SPEAKER_00: But what exactly is Disney magic?
0:51
SPEAKER_00: It's that intangible quality that blends customer service, excellence, creativity, entertainment, and a rich legacy into one truly magical package.
1:03
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thrilled today to have a guest who truly embodies Disney Magic.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: For the Walt Disney World Resort.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: As the former operating executive for 10 years, led a team of 40,000 cast members.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I heard that right, 40,000.
1:24
SPEAKER_00: And he was responsible for the operations of 20 resort hotels, 14 parks, two water parks, a shopping and entertainment village, and sports and recreation complex ancillary operations, which supported the number one vacation desperate in the world.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: One of the last things was the creation of 10 great leaders projects which was to try to develop 7,000 leaders of all this world.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Before joining Disney in 1990 to open the Disneyland Air Project.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: Now we dedicated public speaking, writing and the author of several fantastic books, including Creating Magic, Time Magic Magic, and Career Magic.
2:16
SPEAKER_00: He is also the co-host of the excellent podcast called Creating Disney Magic.
2:24
SPEAKER_00: This is one of those interviews where I honestly had a difficult time narrowing down what I wanted to ask for.
2:31
SPEAKER_00: We had such an topic of career that it was difficult to know where to even start.
2:35
SPEAKER_00: So I settled on three main topics.
2:38
SPEAKER_00: Number one, number two, some thoughts on time management based on his new book.
2:45
SPEAKER_00: And number three, some thoughts on his writing and a podcast.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: I could finally talk to Lee for hours and hours just talking about unfortunately you're not limited just to this interview.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: You can hear Lee and his co-host talking about his creating diplomatic podcast, which I highly, highly recommend.
3:06
SPEAKER_00: Also make sure you check out the show notes after the interview at the net slash one fourth steps.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: That's understock.
3:17
SPEAKER_00: Alright, that's enough about me.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Let's get to the conversation with Lee Cocker.
3:22
SPEAKER_00: Lee, thank you so much for doing the podcast.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate making time to do this.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: I I can't wait to dive in.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Good to be with you.
3:29
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for asking me, actually.
3:31
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, it's always it's always really fun, and I tell people this a lot when they ask about, you know, why do you invest time into podcasting and why do you do a podcast?
3:40
SPEAKER_00: But I do it because you get to connect with cool people.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: And I really love that about podcasting.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Well, I agree.
3:46
SPEAKER_02: I uh I tell people the best uh strategy you can have in life is meet as many people as you can.
3:52
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, absolutely.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: Well, and what's really equally fun is when I already listened to somebody's podcast and then I get to have them as a guest on mine, it's sort of like, hey, this is it's like a surreal thing.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's kind of fun.
4:04
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'd love to start out and I was gonna say for those of our listeners who don't know who you are, but I would find that hard to believe because your name has been out there in so many different ways.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: But for those who are not familiar with your work and your writing, can you give us a little snapshot of your journey from the hotel industry, serving with Hilton and Marriott, then on to Disney and taking on a huge, huge role?
4:30
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I um dropped out of college because I forgot to go to class and went in the army.
4:35
SPEAKER_02: And when I got out of the army, I got a job as a banquet waiter up at the Washington Hilton in DC, up there where Reagan got shot back in the 80s.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: Really?
4:44
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's fascinating.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
4:46
SPEAKER_02: It um I just got a job.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: The hotel was going to open in two weeks after I got there.
4:50
SPEAKER_02: They gave me a job as a banquet waiter.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know anything about what I was doing, and lucky I had somebody who kind of took me by the hand and taught me the business.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: I was 20 years old.
5:00
SPEAKER_02: And I stayed with Hilton eight years and got into a management training program and worked in Washington, Chicago, the Waldorf story in New York, Los Angeles, and uh moved around quite a bit.
5:13
SPEAKER_02: I got married when we were in Washington, we had a baby, so we were on the road doing that, and I left Hilton in um 73.
5:24
SPEAKER_02: I went to Marriott, where I spent 17 years, started out in the food business there, like because I'd kind of developed an expertise in that business.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: And then I um became uh vice president of food and beverage for Marriott, and I was a general manager of a Marriott Hotel, and then I got recruited by Disney in 1990 to open Euro Disneyland Paris.
5:46
SPEAKER_02: And uh so my wife and I went there for three years, and um in 1993 they asked me to come back to Orlando and be in charge of the hotel division at Disney, and then two years later I was put in charge of all the operations at Walt Disney World, and I did that for 10 years, and then I retired and write some books and go around talking about it.
6:08
SPEAKER_00: Now, when you talk about let me help help help me get my head around this.
6:13
SPEAKER_00: When you talk about opening Disneyland pairs, do you mean you are the guy who is in charge of making that happen?
6:20
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I had a smaller part.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: I you know, I was still but I was out of food and beverage for years, and they recruited me to open the food, food and beverage facilities at Euro Disney.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: And so I spent the first year and a half traveling around the world hiring 200 managers and chefs and restaurant managers all over the place, people who wanted to come and live in France and and hopefully spoke French.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: And uh then I was promoted to be in charge of all the hotels at Paris after about a year.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: So that was my put that was my piece of the puzzle over there.
6:57
SPEAKER_00: What was the biggest challenge of opening Disneyland Paris?
7:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there were many.
7:02
SPEAKER_02: Ask me if there was anything easy.
7:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that is probably a better question, much better question.
7:07
SPEAKER_02: Well, what you learn when you go to a foreign country, and I anybody that has a chance to work in another country should do it.
7:13
SPEAKER_02: You really find out what you're made out of.
7:15
SPEAKER_02: I was illiterate, I didn't speak French.
7:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh it's very stressful to live in a country where you don't speak the language, especially France.
7:22
SPEAKER_02: I was dealing with food and beverage, and the French are really into food and beverage.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: And uh so I was a little intimidated too.
7:30
SPEAKER_02: But uh it was hard.
7:31
SPEAKER_02: It was hard.
7:32
SPEAKER_02: The culture, the custom, hard work, uh getting that thing open.
7:36
SPEAKER_02: I was working from like four I'd get up at 4 30, go to work at 5 36, come home at 10 at night for about seven months.
7:44
SPEAKER_02: And uh it was pretty rough.
7:46
SPEAKER_02: But I I would never I'm so glad I did it because I found out how much uh I could actually do.
7:52
SPEAKER_02: People say they work 18 hours a day.
7:54
SPEAKER_02: I said, boy, probably not, because I know what that feels like, and it's all you do is sleep and work.
8:00
SPEAKER_02: And I quit drinking and no wine, no nothing, just to make sure I had enough energy and uh to get in there and stay on it seven days a week for a while right at the end before we opened.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: And uh but I my career basically was successful even without a college degree, because I I tell people if if you don't have a college degree, you better have a good attitude.
8:22
SPEAKER_00: So true.
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
8:24
SPEAKER_02: I did what any anybody asked me to do, I was there.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: I never complained about anything.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: And uh and I'm very organized.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: That was the other thing I think it got me ahead that they could rely on me to follow through.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: I've been teaching time management for 25 years now, 35, I guess.
8:40
SPEAKER_02: And uh that concept of being able to uh keep your promises, do what you say you're gonna do, be reliable, be credible is really vital.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: And if you got a good attitude also, uh a lot of people want you to work for them.
8:52
SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of what was my uh trick play.
8:56
SPEAKER_00: Now I do want to dive into to your new book on time management magic, but before I do that, speaking of time management, I've got to ask you this question that is burning in my mind.
9:07
SPEAKER_00: Uh I have read, and I think I've heard you talk about this before on other in other venues, where when you were VP of operations at Walt Disney World Resort, that you had 40,000 people under you.
9:19
SPEAKER_00: Is that correct?
9:20
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
9:21
SPEAKER_02: It was 40,000 total, and about 5,000 of those were managers.
9:26
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it was uh but of course I didn't know what was going on, but I had people around me who did, so that I was safe.
9:34
SPEAKER_00: So is there an element to where you get up in the morning and is that a uh just a gigantic pressure that you're responsible for such a large thing, or is it a matter of surrounding yourself with great people and then that's kind of the way that you sleep at night?
9:48
SPEAKER_02: Everything in life is surrounding yourself by great people.
9:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, today you can't know everything when you get into technology, finance, legal issues, uh you name it, goes on and on and on and on.
10:00
SPEAKER_02: If you don't hire experts, literally, you probably can't survive because you'll get in trouble in one of those, especially at a place like Disney.
10:08
SPEAKER_02: So uh people ask me, what'd you do?
10:11
SPEAKER_02: I said, I didn't do anything, but I made sure things got done.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: That was my that was my main goal.
10:16
SPEAKER_02: Make sure things get done.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: And uh so I I I uh I don't have a high need for uh knowing everything or control.
10:25
SPEAKER_02: I have a high need for hiring people and trusting them and let them do their job and then let me figure out where to spend my time because when you hire great people and pay them and let them do their job, they know what to do, they'll do fine.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people just can't give up the control and uh gives them anxiety, I guess.
10:43
SPEAKER_02: But uh you can't.
10:44
SPEAKER_02: If you try to do everything and be involved in everything and approve everything, uh it'll probably take a toll on your health.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: So your newest book is called Time Management Magic.
10:54
SPEAKER_00: You've also written books on leadership, customer service, and many other things, but why a book on time management now?
11:02
SPEAKER_02: Well, back in 1980, you know, I was struggling in my career uh back in the late 70s because it when you get promoted and you move and you have new responsibilities, there's just more and more coming at you.
11:18
SPEAKER_02: And I was starting to have trouble uh handling the volume of responsibilities that were landing in my desk.
11:26
SPEAKER_02: And by then I was in charge of the east coast of Marriott for all the hotels for food and beverage and traveling, and I had a son at home and soccer games and all the stuff that happens, and um so I was pretty uptight.
11:42
SPEAKER_02: I was working day, you know.
11:43
SPEAKER_02: I literally went in every day early, stayed late, took work home on weekends, and it was not good for my marriage, and it wasn't good for me.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: I was in a bad mood most of the time.
11:54
SPEAKER_02: And uh so um my boss put together a time management seminar we had to go to that was taught.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: It was a two-day seminar, and I didn't want to go.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: I thought I don't want to go to this site, I don't have to come for this.
12:07
SPEAKER_02: And I I just thought it was nonsense.
12:09
SPEAKER_02: And I went, I sat on the front row, which I always do because I pay more attention there and don't get distracted.
12:16
SPEAKER_02: And uh I really learned a lot.
12:18
SPEAKER_02: It was amazing.
12:19
SPEAKER_02: And I started back and I started implementing what I learned, how to use a planner, how to think about what you're working on, where you should spend your time, where you should not spend your time.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: And I just got better and better at it.
12:31
SPEAKER_02: Then I started developing other concepts within it, and then I started teaching in it, Marion, because I was getting so much uh work done and less stress and less time at work, more effective.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: And I started teaching it.
12:45
SPEAKER_02: And then other people started saying, Wow, this has changed me.
12:48
SPEAKER_02: And uh then I just kept doing that and went to Disney.
12:52
SPEAKER_02: I kept teaching it, and talked to just about everybody at Disney.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: I taught classes every month on time management, and uh it's just one of those things that you better have a good system for keeping things under control or they'll get out of control.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: And uh it'll be Christmas again, and you'll wish you had done something, and then you next thing you turn around and 20 years gone by and you wonder what happened.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: So, as I tell people, time is not on your side.
13:17
SPEAKER_02: You better get control of it, and you better value it because you spend money and you spend time, and uh you can get the money back, but that you you'll never get back that dinner with your wife on your anniversary, or going to the school to see your kids in the play when they're in first grade, or you know, all the things that are easy to miss if you get too wrapped up in your career and and uh uh are kind of one-dimensional.
13:45
SPEAKER_02: You just work, and then you get end up getting a divor divorce, and I guess I survive because I've been married 51 years, so it was a close call a few times, but uh I she told me she's gonna stay, so I'm in good shape.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's good.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
13:59
SPEAKER_00: Probably at this point you're safe.
14:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
14:02
SPEAKER_00: Well, your book is filled with a lot of counterintuitive wisdom about time management, and one of the things that struck me the most is that you talk about the value of using a paper day planner as opposed to having everything digital or on your phone.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about that?
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Because that's something that is contrary to what a lot of people think, and I'm really interested to hear your take on that.
14:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm so old that I know both pretty well.
14:26
SPEAKER_02: Um a lot of pe young people have never heard of paper.
14:29
SPEAKER_02: But uh I got everything on my phone and I use it for everything except uh planning my day, my task list, because so often I'm on the phone and I need to be writing it down, I need to be looking at my counter while I'm talking to somebody, I need to be uh, and I can tell you, as I've taught these seminars over the years, it's amazing how many people go back to a planner once they hear my presentation or read the book because uh we all kind of just go along, you know, technology came along, we all start doing it, and sometimes we give up things that were working just fine, and we take something that doesn't work.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: And uh, I can just tell anybody that goes back and has a planner, they can look at it.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Writing things down actually affects your brain differently.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: Actually, writing it down.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: Even in college today, they say they're trying to get kids to take notes by hand instead of just pumping them into a laptop because somehow the brain accepts that differently.
15:23
SPEAKER_02: It's like reading a book.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: Studies show the brain is a different when you read with a book in your hand versus an online download book.
15:33
SPEAKER_02: So it works, and uh I know a lot of people have tried just with technology and they're not getting the results.
15:42
SPEAKER_02: So I would say, well, it we should all remember that technology is great.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: It's just not great for everything.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And uh there's still the human factor, there's still uh let's don't get so enthralled.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: I I always tell people you can't raise your kids with uh text, uh, you know, you can't uh uh hug your wife with an email.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: There's there's times when you need another strategy, which is probably old strategies.
16:07
SPEAKER_02: And a paper planner for me is just uh amazing.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: Um battery never goes down, it's always available.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh there's just a million reasons, but you would have to study it and read about it to understand why it makes a difference.
16:23
SPEAKER_02: It yes.
16:24
SPEAKER_02: Once you understand why, then you go, oh, okay, I never thought of that.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: Same old story.
16:28
SPEAKER_02: We only know what we know.
16:30
SPEAKER_02: And uh so I've tried both and uh I've settled back into having I always say it's two tools.
16:36
SPEAKER_02: I have a phone, that's my hammer, and my daytime's my screwdriver.
16:40
SPEAKER_02: So I like that.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: You know, sometimes you need two tools to get the job done.
16:44
SPEAKER_02: One doesn't one's not enough.
16:46
SPEAKER_00: Now I'd love to dig into your your podcast and your books for a little bit because I'm really intrigued by what you're doing with the podcast, but also uh you've been so prolific with writing, and I love your books.
16:58
SPEAKER_00: They're they're just really wonderful.
17:00
SPEAKER_00: So the first question I have about this is how do you decide which books to write?
17:04
SPEAKER_00: You're written on a wide variety of topics, but how do you decide which book that you're gonna invest the time and the marketing into next?
17:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, the first book, Creating Magic about leadership strategies, I had developed a document while I was at Walt Disney World called Disney Great Leader Strategies.
17:20
SPEAKER_02: And I worked on that for about a year with a consultant to try to define what leadership should look like at Disney World and what it should look like from the people being led, the hourly employees.
17:30
SPEAKER_02: And I developed that document and rolled it out across Disney World back in the 90s, and uh that became the basis for my first book.
17:38
SPEAKER_02: And uh so I used that, and that's it was 12 Strategies at Disney.
17:44
SPEAKER_02: We boiled them down to 10, and uh that's how that one got written.
17:48
SPEAKER_02: It took me about two years to get it done because I had to deal with Disney lawyers, and oh, interesting.
17:54
SPEAKER_02: Of course, they have to look, they want to see every word, and uh because they let me put Disney on the cover, so uh that's that was a coup, they've never done that before.
18:02
SPEAKER_02: And uh so that went off and that was doing great.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: That book's in 20 languages now, and uh so second random house, the publisher came and said, We'd like you to write a book on customer service.
18:15
SPEAKER_02: And I said, No, I'm not writing any more books, that was hard.
18:20
SPEAKER_02: Because you sign a contract, you got one year, that's it.
18:23
SPEAKER_02: You got to get with it.
18:24
SPEAKER_02: You can't take it lightly.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: So finally they talked me into it, and I did it and did that one in about nine months.
18:31
SPEAKER_02: And uh I uh you know, just uh what I do is I write every day from 8 30 to 10 when I'm writing a book seven days a week, two hours a day.
18:40
SPEAKER_02: I just budget, put it in my calendar, in my daytime, and that way you it just becomes one of those tasks like eating breakfast and go read the paper, then 8 30 to 10 write.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: And then when you write two hours a day, you know, it doesn't take you long.
18:56
SPEAKER_02: And then I had editors that corrected it and changed it, and we negotiated the what each chapter was about and got that done.
19:04
SPEAKER_02: And then time management too.
19:06
SPEAKER_02: I had a lot of data already on that.
19:09
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I had already written a lot because I wrote a training manual for it that I used to train the managers at Disney and Marriott.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: So I had that, and I had a lot more experience, so I had a lot more examples to put in it by now.
19:21
SPEAKER_02: And then the last one, Career Magic, I wrote because I wanted to have a book that talked about the obstacles you're gonna face in your life, at work, at home, your personal life, and how to overcome those obstacles.
19:35
SPEAKER_02: And it's not a matter of whether you're gonna have them, you are gonna have them, and they're gonna come, and it's a matter of how you handle them.
19:41
SPEAKER_02: And uh don't give up the first time you get fired or passed over, or somebody else got the job you wanted, or you're having trouble living in the city you decided to go to.
19:51
SPEAKER_02: All these things are gonna happen.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: And uh uh they happen to me.
19:55
SPEAKER_02: I told people I've been fired, I've been passed over, and and all the time that happened, the best days were still ahead of me.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: And it's about your attitude.
20:04
SPEAKER_02: Just pick yourself up.
20:06
SPEAKER_02: If it was your fault, make sure you you agree to that and don't do it again.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: And if it's your boss's fault, well, that happens.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I mean, you never get there's no guarantees who you're gonna work for, how they're gonna treat you, do they care about you?
20:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh life's unfair.
20:23
SPEAKER_02: Somebody told me once a kid at Disney said, it's not fair to work here at Disney.
20:27
SPEAKER_02: You have to know somebody to get ahead.
20:29
SPEAKER_02: I said, Yep, that's right.
20:32
SPEAKER_02: He said, Well, it's not fair.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: I said, I know, but that's the way it is.
20:36
SPEAKER_02: It's not fair.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of things are not fair, and you gotta don't take them personally, because uh it'll just once your morale gets down, you lose your energy, and then you don't have that excitement, you don't you're not pushing hard.
20:49
SPEAKER_02: You just pick yourself up and you work through it.
20:51
SPEAKER_02: And so that's the four books.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: One's on leadership, one on um customer service, things you can do that you don't have to spend a lot of money on, uh, the customer rules, uh, time management magic, and I would say to everybody, get organized before you take on anything else in your life because it doesn't matter how much you learn if you can't implement it.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: Implementation is the name of the game, and it's the one thing most people don't do very well.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: Most people have no discipline.
21:17
SPEAKER_02: And so they plan to do all these things, and the year goes by and they don't get them done.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: And that can really affect your self-confidence too, and your self-esteem when you're failing.
21:29
SPEAKER_02: And uh so uh I just had a college kid ask me, he said, I'm taking on so much and I never get it all done.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: I said, I know, quit taking on so much.
21:37
SPEAKER_01: So true.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: You're busy enough in college and working, don't take on more stuff right now.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: Do the most important things in your life at the right time, and then you can do the others later.
21:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh so it's just a it's a philosophy, it's a way of thinking that uh you can do about anything you want to do.
21:54
SPEAKER_02: You don't have to do it yourself, you can get help.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: I I there's a lot of things I have to get expert.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: To help me.
22:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I'm doing half time, but I I'm not embarrassed to say I don't know.
22:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't understand that.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: Explain that again.
22:08
SPEAKER_02: Or can you do it for me?
22:09
SPEAKER_02: I'll pay you.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: But I still get it done, whether I do it or whether I pay somebody to do it.
22:16
SPEAKER_02: So and today I would say don't be bashful about getting experts to help you and give you advice on your retirement, on anything you think, investments, your health, your your website, your your podcast, everything.
22:32
SPEAKER_02: Because there's people out there, let me tell you, there are people out there better than we are.
22:37
SPEAKER_00: So true.
22:38
SPEAKER_02: And you're never as good as you think you are.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: Now talk to us about you mentioned the podcast.
22:44
SPEAKER_00: Talk to us a little bit about your creating Disney Magic podcast.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: How did that come about?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: And um I'm just curious about the story behind that because I really love the show.
22:53
SPEAKER_00: I love how informal it is.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: It's so inspiring.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: How did that actually happen?
22:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, Jody Mayberry, who uh uh moderates that show, called me five or six years ago and said, Hi, I'm Jody Mayberry, and uh I have a podcast called Parks and Recreation, because Jody had been a park ranger in Washington State, and he started a podcast.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: He just called me up and said, I'd like to interview you for my podcast.
23:20
SPEAKER_02: I said, Okay, fine.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: He did.
23:22
SPEAKER_02: Hung up, blah, blah, blah.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: And uh three months later he called back and said, Hey Lee, have you ever thought about having a podcast yourself?
23:30
SPEAKER_02: I said, Not really.
23:31
SPEAKER_02: I didn't even know what a podcast was until you call me.
23:34
SPEAKER_02: And uh he said, Well, I said, I'll be happy to do it as long as you do all the work.
23:38
SPEAKER_02: I'm not doing any work, I'm retired.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: I'll talk.
23:41
SPEAKER_02: You call me, I'll talk.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: You ask me questions, I'll explain things, you do all the work, you you edit it, you publish it, you market it.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: And uh he said, Okay, and so we've done, we're approaching 300 shows now.
23:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh we've never missed a week in six years, so uh uh they're 15 minutes, 18 minutes long, 15, 18.
24:02
SPEAKER_02: And uh we hit two million downloads a couple months ago, and uh people love it.
24:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think it's because it's informal, we just kind of get to the point.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: I tell them the good, the bad, and the ugly.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: You know, you know, people say, What do I do with this guy working for me?
24:18
SPEAKER_02: I say, fire him.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's like and I I'm not too uh, yeah, I I I kind of just lay it out there.
24:27
SPEAKER_02: Maybe people like that because I don't, you know, I think there is a kind try making things that are complex simple is the name of the game in life.
24:37
SPEAKER_02: Take complexity like uh Amazon does, you know.
24:40
SPEAKER_02: Jeff Bezos, he said the name of the game is to take complexity and make it simple for the user.
24:46
SPEAKER_02: And that's true.
24:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh make it simple.
24:49
SPEAKER_02: That's why Disney does storytelling.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: They tell a story with animation and music, and uh colleges are starting to want to use more storytelling to make the points.
25:02
SPEAKER_02: And we all remember the story and we reuse remember the lesson.
25:06
SPEAKER_02: But when you get an old textbook and it's 40 years old, the professor hadn't been in business for 20 years and it's boring.
25:13
SPEAKER_02: Today kids don't want uh theory anymore, they want reality.
25:17
SPEAKER_02: How do I do this?
25:18
SPEAKER_02: And that's what I'm working on now is with c college and high school kids.
25:23
SPEAKER_02: My books are being used as uh textbooks now, and because they're down to earth, they're understandable, and they're basic.
25:30
SPEAKER_02: I tell people don't get bored with the basics in life.
25:33
SPEAKER_02: You know, that's uh the basics are how that's why Disney's successful.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: Cleanliness and friendliness, that's the basic.
25:42
SPEAKER_02: And Disney Mr.
25:43
SPEAKER_02: Disney said, you keep it clean and keep it friendly, everything will work out just fine after I'm so sure.
25:48
SPEAKER_02: And Mr.
25:49
SPEAKER_02: Marriott said the same thing, keep it clean and friendly.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes we get like, I gotta have this technology and that, and we forget the guest just wants you to take care of them.
25:59
SPEAKER_02: And they want it clean and they want it safe.
26:03
SPEAKER_02: You know, you talk about it.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: What do you want in your life?
26:05
SPEAKER_02: You want safety, cleanliness, friendliness, you want to deal with people.
26:10
SPEAKER_02: That's we all want the same thing.
26:12
SPEAKER_02: And uh if you make it too complex, people they walk away because they don't understand it or they don't know how to implement it.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: And uh so, yeah.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: You know, we've all gone to a lot of seminars and we walk out and we don't know how to implement them.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: We go like, okay, what do I do now?
26:30
SPEAKER_02: So that's what I like to think about is simplify so people can get it.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: And that's what I love about your podcast is I feel like it's just sitting down with two friends and listening to a conversation.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: It's not it's not, you know, that's a big scripted thing.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: It's just a conversation.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: How does that actu how does that podcast actually happen?
26:48
SPEAKER_00: For those who are considering doing a podcast, does Jody send you questions ahead of time?
26:53
SPEAKER_00: Is it totally off the cuff?
26:54
SPEAKER_02: No, it's totally off the cuff, and we talked about that.
26:57
SPEAKER_02: And the reason I didn't want to pre-plan it is it won't come off if you do.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: We go all over the place.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes we end up going somewhere we don't even know how we got there.
27:06
SPEAKER_02: And um it um I think uh uh what happened was well, I told Joe he has all four of my books, so he'll look through those for a subject on customer service or leadership or some when I moved to New York and did this or that and talk about what happened there, Lee, or talk about when you got fired that time, how'd you handle that?
27:29
SPEAKER_02: And uh he just lays them on me and uh we just talk it out and I give the best answer I can because if you overproduce it, it just doesn't it's not believable for me.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
27:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh I just yeah, I just uh yeah, sometimes we say things we probably shouldn't, but that's how life is.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: So that's what that's what I love about it is I feel like you're being real on the show and that it's not some big scripted thing.
27:57
SPEAKER_00: So that that to me is what makes it so great.
28:00
SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think anybody starting a podcast can do that.
28:02
SPEAKER_02: They just need to talk about things they know about and that they're uh passionate about.
28:08
SPEAKER_02: Uh if you're passionate about something, whether it's animals or whether it's uh sports or you can talk about it all day long.
28:15
SPEAKER_02: It's sometimes people try to do podcasts where they're not an they don't really, they they just want to do a podcast.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, you ought to be thinking about what are you teaching somebody?
28:26
SPEAKER_02: I tell people today, be a teacher.
28:27
SPEAKER_02: Don't be there's got to be a reason that somebody listens.
28:31
SPEAKER_02: They learn something, they go out, they implement it, their life gets better.
28:34
SPEAKER_02: That's what I think about every day.
28:36
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:37
SPEAKER_02: So and I I warn you too, just don't just because I say it doesn't make sure it's gonna be come true.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: You may screw up your whole life by listening to me.
28:49
SPEAKER_00: Well, you've you've sure given out a lot of great wisdom, so I'd I would I would be surprised if somebody implements some of your wisdom and they they mess up somehow.
28:57
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll say particularly young people just grab it.
29:00
SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it's because they haven't heard it given out that way in school or with their parents, but uh the young people is where I'm getting the action.
29:09
SPEAKER_02: It's amazing how many I still I talk to classrooms and students in college like almost every week.
29:16
SPEAKER_02: Some professor will have me address them on Zoom, and uh I think they hear things they've never heard before.
29:23
SPEAKER_02: So uh like when we get into how to really deal with people, because it's all about people, there's nothing else.
29:30
SPEAKER_02: If you can't deal with people, you you're dead.
29:31
SPEAKER_02: I tell people if you can't make hard decisions and you can't have hard conversations, don't have children and don't be a leader because that's all you do.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: They I people say, I want to be a manager.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: I say, Are you crazy?
29:43
SPEAKER_02: You want to run your life?
29:44
SPEAKER_02: I mean, this is so it's a lot of fun because humans are unpredictable.
29:52
SPEAKER_00: Now you mentioned storytelling, and of course, Disney is so well known for storytelling on so many fronts.
29:57
SPEAKER_00: Have you ever thought about taking your wisdom and your knowledge and putting that in some type of a story or parable format?
30:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually I have, and several people have recommended that, and we're thinking about that right now.
30:11
SPEAKER_02: Actually, that very subject is uh we may do something similar to just what you talked about because uh it wouldn't be that hard to do.
30:21
SPEAKER_02: Because let me tell you, everybody's got the same problem.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: So when you do something like that, it doesn't matter who you are or where you are in the world.
30:28
SPEAKER_02: We all have worries, we all have kids, we all have our personal safety, we want to have a good education.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a lot of things we can do.
30:36
SPEAKER_02: So we're Jody's pushing me on that.
30:39
SPEAKER_02: He's he's he's 35 years younger than me, so he likes to do a lot more than I do.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, as we begin to wind this down, um, I do want to ask you about something that I heard on your podcast.
30:51
SPEAKER_00: I think it was one of the most recent episodes where you were talking about your creating Disney magic um, I'm sorry, it was creating magic mastermind.
31:00
SPEAKER_00: And I'm really intrigued about what's going on with that and how people could be a part of that.
31:04
SPEAKER_02: Well, that was Mr.
31:05
SPEAKER_02: Jody's idea too.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, if you look, masterminds are happening everywhere.
31:11
SPEAKER_02: You see them on Facebook and LinkedIn, people are out there doing them, and it's basically getting a small group of people together, the ones in person, getting a small group of people together uh from all backgrounds.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: Anybody wants to pay, we charge$1,500.
31:25
SPEAKER_02: They come for the day to Orlando.
31:27
SPEAKER_02: We spend a day together.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: Uh I talk about leadership, management, customer service.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: I talk about uh hiring, training, culture, and then we open it up and the group goes around, they bring the biggest problem they got in their life, and the 12 people sit in that room, and we actually, it's amazing how we solve their problems.
31:46
SPEAKER_02: We give them ideas they've never thought about, uh approaches they've never thought about, uh, technology they've never thought about, and we've had four of them now, and they sell out, and everybody we have we have three or four people come to all of them.
32:02
SPEAKER_02: They keep coming back because they say that getting out of uh their own little lives and spending time with people that don't know them and getting different perspectives uh is just an amazing thing that happens.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: So we have all people from all kinds of walks, backgrounds, different countries.
32:21
SPEAKER_02: Uh uh, and uh I learn a lot, they learn a lot, and they're happy.
32:26
SPEAKER_02: So if you go, I mean, everybody in the world is doing masterminds now.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: A lot of them are doing them online.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: I think Bob Iger's involved in one and different people where you pay a fee and uh maybe a monthly fee or something like that.
32:41
SPEAKER_02: But we like the in-person.
32:43
SPEAKER_02: There's nothing like the in-person, you know, at the end of the day, uh I can tell my wife I love her or I can kiss her.
32:51
SPEAKER_02: There's two different ones very true.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: In person.
32:54
SPEAKER_02: I can tell her I love her over the phone, but it's better face to face.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: So anytime you're face to face, because it's not, again, it's not structured, it goes all over the place.
33:04
SPEAKER_02: And uh we have some pretty good conversations about ethics, honesty, doing the right thing, culture, how you treat people, how to be a better leader, how to be a better manager, how to be a better husband, how to be a better father.
33:17
SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, so they're they're a lot of fun.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you had mentioned uh on that podcast where you were talking about that that Dan Miller had been with your group, which I thought was pretty cool.
33:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm a part of his Eagles community, and he's been such a huge influence in my life.
33:31
SPEAKER_02: He's amazing.
33:32
SPEAKER_02: And Dan Miller just sent me a box of chocolate.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: Have you ever received any of his chocolates?
33:37
SPEAKER_00: Not his chocolates.
33:38
SPEAKER_00: I have received some other stuff, some books and some other things from his.
33:41
SPEAKER_02: So tell him uh Lee Cock.
33:43
SPEAKER_02: That's my wife's eating a bar of it and taking a nap right now.
33:46
SPEAKER_02: Um it's a chocolate, I think it's from Peru.
33:49
SPEAKER_02: A guy who was a lawyer decided he hates being a lawyer, and he started a sustainable chocolate company.
33:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I know who you're talking about.
33:56
SPEAKER_00: I've heard about that guy.
33:57
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:58
SPEAKER_02: Each bar is like there's one that's 62% dark chocolate, there's another one that's 77%, there's one that's 98%, there's one that has salt in it, there's one that has this in it.
34:09
SPEAKER_02: It's an amazing product, and he sent me a box, and now I really love him.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: So these days, do you have this is kind of a dumb question, probably, but I'm just curious about it.
34:20
SPEAKER_00: But do you have sort of carte blanche uh authority to just go hang out at Disney whenever you want to?
34:25
SPEAKER_02: Well, I have a pass for four people for life.
34:29
SPEAKER_02: So that's really that's really cool.
34:31
SPEAKER_02: I actually go hang out at a little coffee shop down the street where I go and work, and they don't throw me out.
34:36
SPEAKER_02: So I work there three or four hours, have breakfast, coffee, I meet people there.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: It's owned by a Brazilian lady, and half the customers are from Brazil, and it's a lot of fun.
34:46
SPEAKER_02: And uh it's about two minutes from my house.
34:49
SPEAKER_02: Going to Disney's kind of hard work.
34:52
SPEAKER_02: Parking and Disney.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: It is, it is.
34:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I uh yeah, I I go occasionally, but not that often anymore.
34:58
SPEAKER_02: Uh I I don't get too far from home.
35:00
SPEAKER_02: My wife wants to know where I am.
35:02
SPEAKER_00: So well, Lee, what's next on the horizon for you?
35:06
SPEAKER_00: Do you have uh the next are you thinking about future books, future cool things that you're gonna be doing that are uh about leadership and customer service?
35:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm getting real interested in education.
35:17
SPEAKER_02: I did a book with a professor at the State University of New York.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: We did a book called A-Game.
35:23
SPEAKER_02: It's a one business 101 class for uh uh freshmen, and it's uh story form about a little boy that opens a lemonade stand and uh lemonade pop stand, and we teach them about cash flow, inventory, uh forecasting, all that by the and it comes with a little video series.
35:41
SPEAKER_02: So, and it's been very popular.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: The students absolutely love it, and they learn better from that story about uh all this depreciation and all this stuff.
35:50
SPEAKER_02: And so we're looking now, uh working with some uh state school systems on a better approach to storytelling, you know, things that kids can learn from storytelling, pictures, comic books, presented in a way the character can be the trainer, the character can be more powerful than the teacher by the key character telling you you should do this and you shouldn't do that, and here's how you do it.
36:17
SPEAKER_02: And so we're really uh exploring that right now.
36:21
SPEAKER_02: And uh actually a guy down in Mexico took my book, The Customer Rules, and had it made into three comic books.
36:32
SPEAKER_02: And he said, All his guys in the factory love it, and they read it and they get and that what that's how he gets through to them.
36:38
SPEAKER_02: And when you think about that, you know, one of the ways they uh train young girls who have gotten pregnant at 14 or 15 uh to take care of their child is through comic books because the kids are so young they don't, you know, and uh they teach them how to take care of that baby and how to uh talk to them and how to you know, so we gotta really think more creatively.
36:59
SPEAKER_02: And and I think that's true, video too.
37:01
SPEAKER_02: I mean, people videos are more powerful than audio.
37:04
SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh but audio, video you gotta you can't be driving the car.
37:10
SPEAKER_01: Yes, or you shouldn't at least.
37:12
SPEAKER_02: You shouldn't, yeah.
37:13
SPEAKER_02: So there's lots of opportunities to do things.
37:16
SPEAKER_02: It's just a matter of whether I want to do them or not.
37:18
SPEAKER_02: And uh we're working on some more courses.
37:21
SPEAKER_02: We have some online courses and time management, and we're doing we're about to get one done for other customer rules, and we're thinking about a 30-day course, uh one one big idea a day we teach people.
37:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, we got a few things here and there.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Well, Lee, this has been a blast.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna have to go back and re-listen to this two or three times to soak in all of your knowledge and wisdom.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you doing this this episode.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: I love it.
37:47
SPEAKER_02: And uh good luck.
37:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh check in again if you want to do it.
37:50
SPEAKER_02: Let us know when this is ready, and we'll get it out on our different sites.
37:53
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate it.
37:55
SPEAKER_00: I'll have links to all your uh to your website and all your other books and good stuff in our show notes.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: Great.
38:01
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
38:02
SPEAKER_02: You take care.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: You too.
38:03
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, bye-na.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Lee Cockerel.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Here are my three biggest takeaways from this interview.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh number one is the value of using a paper planner.
38:17
SPEAKER_00: Now, I know a lot of people are going to give me some pushback on this idea.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: We all love our phones and our computers, but you can't argue with success.
38:25
SPEAKER_00: And as limited, uh our phones can be a distraction.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: You mentioned that he's been using a paper planner for decades, and obviously it's worked for him, so again, it's hard to argue with success.
38:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, you might be surprised by this, but I actually plan my week on paper as well.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: So I write down all the things that have to get done and I estimate how much time they're gonna take, and then I actually write them on a printout of my weekly calendar, and then I can transfer that to my computer as needed.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: But the process for me begins with simply a legal pad and a pen.
38:57
SPEAKER_00: Now I do carry a notebook pretty much everywhere I go, and I take lots of notes in that paper notebook, but I obviously use my computer and my phone a lot as well.
39:06
SPEAKER_00: So I guess the point here is do what works for you, but but I would ask that you just give maybe paper planning a try and see how it works for you.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: Change it up and change your system, and who knows, maybe you'll become a convert to paper planning.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: Regardless, I'd encourage you to get Lee's book called Time Management Magic for a lot more detail about how he uses a paper planner.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Takeaway number two, have a set writing schedule.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: And Lee said in our conversation that whenever he's working on a book, he writes from 8 30 to 10 a.m.
39:38
SPEAKER_00: every day.
39:40
SPEAKER_00: So here we have the value of having a set writing schedule.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: And it's honestly amazing what you can get done in an hour or even 90 minutes when you just sit down and have that time blocked out on your schedule and you focus on that one singular thing for that amount of time.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: You can actually get a lot of writing done in an hour if you just sit there and focus on it.
40:00
SPEAKER_00: So number two is have a set writing schedule.
40:04
SPEAKER_00: And then finally, number three, and I love this one.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: Number three, life is not fair, so don't take things personally.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Now I love this advice from Lee.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: The fact of the matter is that life is unfair and a lot of things will happen to you that you don't like.
40:21
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes things happen that you perceive are unfair or that you feel like the world is conspiring against me to make all these bad things happen, but you can't take things personally.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes life just happens to us.
40:33
SPEAKER_00: And I've got to say the Godfather, which is one of my favorite movies.
40:36
SPEAKER_00: It's a business not personal.
40:38
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna attempt to do the podcast like to do the godfather.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna try to do the podcast.
40:44
SPEAKER_00: But I love that.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a business and not personal.
40:48
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes life just happened.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: So whenever you get knocked down, whenever you fail, whenever things are not going right, back up.
40:58
SPEAKER_00: I love this interview.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: This was a lot of fun, and I could have talked for lead for hours and hours, but we only had a little bit of time for it.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: So I hope that you really enjoyed this interview and got a lot of value out of it.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: I know I took a huge thank you to our guest for taking the time to do this interview.
41:16
SPEAKER_00: And before I remember that you can find lots more resources for writers and creators, and until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.