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Transcript

READING ROOM OCT 26 · The Reading Room

• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Good afternoon, everyone. Here we are again at the reading
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: room for this month. And I'm here. My name's Krista.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I'm here with Barry.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Hello.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: And Sue.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Hello.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Hi everyone. And so this week we are going to
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: discuss an Anne Bronte novel, The Tenant of Wildfell. And
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: also actually we're going to have the interview with Patrick Graham,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: who's also a writer, children's writer and adult writer too.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So that's going to happen just after 2.30. So we're
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: going to start off, I'll start off with you Sue,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: because you chose the book, the Anne Bronte book. So yes,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: what do you think?
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: Well, firstly, I always wanted to read a novel by
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: the third Bronte sister, Anne, who, because she was the youngest,
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: sometimes I think she tends to get overlooked. And the
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: reason I chose The Tenant of Wildfell Hall was because
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: I believe it was based on some of the experiences
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: of her brother, Ranwell. So I found the book, particularly
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: in the beginning, very engrossing, and I found study of
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: the emotions of a man by a female author unusual
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: for that era, and in some ways even for today,
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: because Charlotte wrote about Jane Eyre, and Emily shared.
• 1:40
  Speaker 4: Her thoughts about Cathy, as well as the male character.
• 1:44
  Speaker 3: So I enjoyed it, Christa. I thought it was a
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: brave novel for its time, and it did have me hooked.
• 1:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, at the beginning, I was somewhat confused by
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: the number of characters, but as the book went on,
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: she managed to define them for the reader and strengthen
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: them so that we could appreciate the difference.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. I'm going to pass that on to Barry.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: I'll come back to you, Sue. Barry, what did you
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: think of the novel?
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: Well, nail my colours to the mast straight away. I
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: found it another one of those Victorian novels about rich
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: people with servants, which I found very difficult to associate with.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think.
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: I mean, there were issues which were held within the
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: book which I thought were interesting to do with, you know,
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: alcoholism and the fact that the main protagonist, the tenant
• 2:43
  Speaker 5: of Wildfell Hall, Helen Graham, actually had to leave her
• 2:46
  Speaker 5: abusive husband and take a child which was considered, you know,
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: particularly the wrong thing during Victorian times. And I understand
• 2:57
  Speaker 5: all of the issues, but I did find it very
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: heavy going to read. It's written in the first person twice,
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: if you like, in that the first part of the
• 3:08
  Speaker 5: book is written by Gilbert Markham, who falls in love
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: with the tenant of Wildfell Hall, Helen Graham. And the
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: second part of the book is her diary. So the
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: story is told from the two perspectives. both of which
• 3:27
  Speaker 5: I found very, very difficult to get very interested in.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: That's my.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: Fair enough. Well, I actually, I liked it. I thought
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: it was good. I was confused by the amount of characters.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: And I found that most of them had the surname
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: beginning with H. So that also threw me. And then
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: they changed from calling her Helen or Mrs. Huntingdon. Was
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: that right?
• 3:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: And so I did get a bit confused. But then
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: like you, Sue, I got into it towards the end.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: And I did think it was unusual for a novel
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: written in the 1800s, the way that she did show
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: all the emotions which I could relate to today. Like
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: the jealousy when she finds out, you know, someone's having
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: an affair with her husband. And the fact that she
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: was trying to protect her child from all the sins
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: that adults do. I found that was really interesting and
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: the way they did look at the alcoholism. And so
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I enjoyed it. I kind of looked into Anne Bronte
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: and her life and I realised she was only 29
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: when she died. Having done like two novels and quite
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: a tragic story with the Brontes, isn't it? They all,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: the father outlived them all, which I found quite interesting.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: But I did like it and I get what Barry says.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: You can only do so much of historical novels because
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: they are a bit same same however with this one
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I wasn't sure how it was going to end and
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: that was quite good and I'm glad it did it
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: was a happy ending plot spoiler but I wasn't sure
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: so I liked that too and I also liked the
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: writing I thought it was really descriptive and beautiful the
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: way they write and I find that even though it's
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: 200 years ago you can still understand what they're saying
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: but it's just so poetic back to you.
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: Sue Yes, as well as the characters, I did find
• 5:20
  Speaker 3: that some of the sentences were long, which sometimes made
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: it difficult to read. And I understand Barry's point of view.
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: I think novels perhaps are written differently today because then
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: you were writing, there was very little distraction when you
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: were reading a novel. There wasn't your phone going, there
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: wasn't the internet, there wasn't the television, there wasn't travel.
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: So I think people did tend to describe things more,
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: and choose more poetic language in some cases, as novel
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: writing today. But I think the way she tattled the subject,
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: I think, was brave because she was actually writing about
• 6:04
  Speaker 3: her brother. And these were the children of a curate.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: So for her to step out, and Bramwell, like Henry Huntington,
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: died of alcoholism, and he died before them. So they
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: were a tragic family. I did find some of the characters,
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: they surprised me, as with Gilbert. I found that the
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: changing of the development of Gilbert's personality was slightly shocking,
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: especially his assault on Mr Lawrence.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Which came kind of out of the blue.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: And the fact that he didn't regret that, this man
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: had done nothing to him. And I did also want
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: to find out what would happen next. And the way
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: she's layered it with you're listening to Gilbert and then
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: you listen to Helen, I think it's a very difficult construction.
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: And I think it's also unusual for that time as well.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Barry, can you add anything?
• 7:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I think that, I mean, following on from
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: what you said, Krista, and what Suze just said, you know,
• 7:21
  Speaker 5: like that it was a happy ending and that, you know,
• 7:25
  Speaker 5: bearing in mind Gilbert's attack on the guy who turned
• 7:29
  Speaker 5: out to be Helen's brother, I thought he was a wrong-un,
• 7:33
  Speaker 5: you know, so I don't see it as being a
• 7:34
  Speaker 5: happy ending at all, really, because, you know, I don't
• 7:38
  Speaker 5: think attacking somebody with a metal-edged... stick or whatever is
• 7:44
  Speaker 5: like normal behaviour and bearing in mind that you know
• 7:47
  Speaker 5: he describes it himself you know it's like you know
• 7:53
  Speaker 5: you wonder what the real story is in there bearing
• 7:56
  Speaker 5: in mind of course they're all fictional characters but you
• 7:58
  Speaker 5: know what I mean it's like if you're trying to
• 8:00
  Speaker 5: build up a person who would go and do that
• 8:03
  Speaker 5: you know whether or not or whatever his reasons were
• 8:07
  Speaker 5: because he thought that the other guy was actually sort
• 8:11
  Speaker 5: of had designs on the love of his life, as
• 8:15
  Speaker 5: it were. It's not a reason to go around attacking people.
• 8:19
  Speaker 5: And so, you know, to end up with him, you know,
• 8:22
  Speaker 5: should maybe just enter the fire, you know. But the
• 8:25
  Speaker 5: other thing is, if I can just continue with that,
• 8:28
  Speaker 5: is that the problem I have isn't necessarily the flowery
• 8:32
  Speaker 5: language or the, you know, and the complicated language. way
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  Speaker 5: of writing because some of that can be very good
• 8:40
  Speaker 5: taken in small parts and savoured so I'm not against
• 8:44
  Speaker 5: the idea of that. I think it's more the characterisation
• 8:47
  Speaker 5: of these historical novels where these are all about rich
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: families who have servants and I just don't feel that
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: I can identify with those. None of my ancestors would
• 8:58
  Speaker 5: ever have been rich people with servants and nor am
• 9:01
  Speaker 5: I And it's not even something I hanker after. I mean,
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  Speaker 5: I found it very strange, her maidservant, Rachel, who was
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: prepared to sort of carry on serving her and looking
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: after her and using her own money to do so,
• 9:15
  Speaker 5: which I just thought, you know, flippin' heck, love, you know,
• 9:19
  Speaker 5: get a life, you know.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: I get that, but then she would have been destitute,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: wouldn't she, without her? I think that's why she had
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: to have somewhere to live. That's what I kind of
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: got from that.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: Maybe.
• 9:29
  Speaker 5: I don't think, like I say, there's too many extremes
• 9:32
  Speaker 5: in these things. And basically, you know, they're all about
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  Speaker 5: rich people with servants, you know, and it's not something
• 9:39
  Speaker 5: which really interests me as a topic. So, you know,
• 9:43
  Speaker 5: I'm against it from the start, if you like.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I get that. But I also found with it,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: it was frustrating because they were in love and she
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: kept postponing it. And maybe that's what they had to do.
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: But the fact that they didn't live as long as us,
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: And she's like, come back, in six months time and
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: nine months time when they're losing time I find it
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: frustrating but it is part of that era I think. Sue,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: can you add?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that Rachel would be of a certain
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: age and she wouldn't have anywhere else to go. She
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: would be too old to be employable by anybody else
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  Speaker 3: and i think um sometimes we call them servants but
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: they were more like.
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: Friends companions or something yeah maybe.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Just servants um and sometimes you have the nanny in
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: some of the books it's more that the children are
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: closer to the nanny than they are their own parents
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: yeah So I think it's a bit of a grey area.
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  Speaker 3: And like Barry, none of my family were rich. So
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: sometimes I think it's difficult for me to understand that
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  Speaker 3: kind of relationship because of the era in which I
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: was born.
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  Speaker 4: But some of my relations were actually in service.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: You know, I had an aunt that was in service.
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: I had a great aunt that was in service because
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: in many ways, It was better than being down the pits,
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  Speaker 3: if you were a woman.
• 11:17
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: It was better than being in a factory.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: You see, I'll just say... Yeah, sorry, Sue, carry on.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: So, but the book, I found that the construction of
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: it was clever, and she reminded... I like the way,
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: in my particular edition, page 46... that she put a
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: reminder in there that Gilbert was still writing to Halford
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: and that his recollection, that's to us, to guide us.
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  Speaker 3: And it made me feel as if I was reading
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: someone else's mail or someone else's diary.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: I think it's a dark book, but I like the
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: way she puts some humour into it, such as, like,
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: the names on the... Mr Boreham, like, boring them. And
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I actually laughed out loud about the thing about pouring
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: the milk into the saucer. It's sort of like a
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: tea setting. Now, I do think that one of the
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: things I like about the book is that none of
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: the characters are holier than thou. They've all got some
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: trait in them.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: So, like, I felt sorry for Helen.
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: But then, the way she treats Mr Hargreaves pain that
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: he might have been changed my mind at that point
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: because I thought she was treated cruelly by the person
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: she loved it was awful but she treats she treats
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: this particular person in much the same way and it
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: seems to be acceptable to her so I did like
• 13:01
  Speaker 3: the fact that the characters were flawed and did have
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: a lot of I suppose inner rage.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I liked that too. I thought it was very
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: interesting what they touched upon, you know, even like having
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: a child and running away and being a single parent.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: And I did like, and I liked the characters because
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: of that too, Sue. But I also thought it could
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: have been a lot shorter in a way. It kind
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: of prolonged, especially I think towards the end when I
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: just wanted to get on with it and know what
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: was going to happen. And she seemed to prolong the
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: last couple of chapters. which I was just eager to finish.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: I agree with that, Krista, that I've got an idea
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: of saying that at the end of the book, I.
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: Felt it was overlong.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: Unlike you, I just wanted it to be resolved.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And it was. For me, it was a
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: good ending because I like happy endings. But like Barry said,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a happy ending for everyone because, what was it, Mrs. Loughborough,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: was it, who went off to Europe and, And she
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: was destitute and died there. And yeah, it was all
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: the things that I suppose you look back and.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: It wasn't the happy ending for Henry Huntington. I mean,
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: I found his disintegration bleak, frightening and well-portrayed.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I did too. I thought that was good. I'm
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: just thinking, Barry, you should read some Charles Dickens maybe
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: to look at things from a different perspective.
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: No, thanks.
• 14:35
  Speaker 5: No, I'm nothing against Charles Dickens. It's just that, yeah,
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: I think, I mean, part of the thing is when
• 14:44
  Speaker 5: you say about Hargreave, I mean, Hargreave was trying to
• 14:48
  Speaker 5: seduce Helen Graham while she was still married. So I'm
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: not sure. that he deserved any better treatment than anybody else, really.
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: And I think that in terms of... I mean, this
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: is part of the point, you know, because they weren't
• 15:02
  Speaker 5: just sort of, you know, rich people who were sort
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: of maybe benevolent to the people who worked on there.
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: I mean, as far as I could tell, Huntington, his
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: basic thing was going hunting and getting drunk and philandering,
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: you know, and so.
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: And Hargreave and his other chums were like that as well.
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: And the women who were in their circle were not
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: much better. And it's not like me to pass judging
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: on them. They didn't seem to have anything gainful to
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: do in any of it. It was just like spending
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: their money. And I think that in a lot of
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: these historical novels, fixation with bad boys I find difficult
• 15:45
  Speaker 5: to understand. And I think that... I mean, I read,
• 15:49
  Speaker 5: as a result of us doing Death Comes to Pemberley,
• 15:51
  Speaker 5: I read Pride and Prejudice, which for me is a
• 15:53
  Speaker 5: far better written and far better characterised and the characters
• 15:58
  Speaker 5: are much more believable and the writing is a lot wittier,
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: you know. And so, you know, it's not like you
• 16:05
  Speaker 5: can compare like with like, but if I was recommending
• 16:09
  Speaker 5: to somebody to read one of those books, it would
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: be Pride and Prejudice rather than any of.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: These, I would say.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: The Brontes. But I suppose, you know, for that era,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: it was really risque, wasn't she? And the way she portrayed...
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it was. She had, like, the man. She
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: was the man in it, wasn't she? As well as
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: the woman. So she was being kind of out of
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: her comfort zone, putting down how she thought men thought.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: And I think that would have been quite unusual.
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: And indeed, Anna. Yeah, sorry, Sue, you can't.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I was just going to say, she got
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: a lot of that from Brownwell.
• 16:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Because Brownwell did fall in love with a married woman
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: and had an affair with her and was planning to
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: marry her. He was there to tutor the children. And
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: in the end, the husband died and Brownwell thought he
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: was going to marry this rich widow. And she turned
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: him down and didn't want to marry him. But he
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: was a philanderer and an alcoholic. And he's a very,
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: very sad man. character because the Brontes weren't rich but
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: they did have a couple of servants but the home
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: was dependent on the father because.
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: He was the vicar.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: But with Branwell he was kind of overshadowed by his
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: three sisters there were five girls originally and one boy
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: and all the hopes were on Branwell two older girls
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: died and the mother died and the aunt came in
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: to look after them. So he was very overshadowed. And
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: when you think of Anne living in a parsonage in
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: a remote area of Yorkshire, as it was then, she
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: would not know the inner turmoil of a character like Huntington,
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: but she saw it in Branwell.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. Did any of them marry, like Charlotte or Emma?
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, Charlotte married the curate, father's curate, and died in
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: childbirth when she was 36.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Wow. And what about Emily? Did she marry?
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: Oh, no, Emily died within a year. They lost Brownwell,
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: they lost Emily, and then they lost Al. So the
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: three of them died within a year.
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: And it was just Charlotte left looking after her father.
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: And then she married his curate and stayed and looked
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: after her father. And then she died in childbirth and
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: the child died. So in the end, it was Charlotte's
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: husband that looked after Mr. Bronte, and I think he
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: was 80 when he died.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Wow, and no heirs, hey?
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: Sorry?
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: No heirs to the property or anything?
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: No, no, there was nothing.
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: That's really quite interesting, isn't it, and very sad.
• 18:57
  Speaker 6: Yes.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: You can go to their house, can't you, in Howarth?
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: You can do it. I think I went to Howarth.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I didn't go to their house.
• 19:02
  Speaker 5: I haven't been. I would be tempted to go to
• 19:05
  Speaker 5: it just out of interest.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: To put a cross on it.
• 19:09
  Speaker 5: No, I think the thing is, it's like, I mean,
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: you know, apparently Charlotte disapproved of this novel.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:18
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think that, yes, you need to understand
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: the context in which it was published and what the
• 19:23
  Speaker 5: mores of the time were. and, you know, how it
• 19:26
  Speaker 5: went against it. One of the principal ones in terms of, like,
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: a feminist perspective, you know, of Helen actually refusing her
• 19:35
  Speaker 5: husband's sex, you know, which was, you know, at the
• 19:38
  Speaker 5: time considered to be, you know, to be wrong as well,
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: you know, and, in fact, didn't change for a long
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: time into the last century. But, you know, those sort of.
• 19:50
  Speaker 5: Those sort of things although they are obviously relevant and
• 19:55
  Speaker 5: when you look at it in terms of that particular
• 19:58
  Speaker 5: time it still doesn't make it easy reading when you're
• 20:04
  Speaker 5: reading it now if you know what I mean so
• 20:07
  Speaker 5: you can understand the significance of it but it doesn't
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: mean it's a page-turner.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: Not for some people. Interesting how they got to all
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: write under men's names, didn't they?
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, yeah.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: Which I thought was quite interesting. Did they all write
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: under men's names, the three?
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, they had to, Christa, at that point, because
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: as women, there was two reasons. One, the work wouldn't
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: be considered by a publisher coming from a woman. And also,
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: to protect.
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: Their status in society because they were the vicar's daughters
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: and the vicar's daughters should be cleaner than clean if
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: you understand what I mean and the subjects that they're
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: touching on would not be deemed suitable by certain members
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: of the congregation a.
• 20:58
  Speaker 6: Bit racy yes yeah and also touching I think touching
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: a little bit on what went on behind closed doors
• 21:08
  Speaker 6: yeah absolutely.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah Well, I think Wuthering Heights was quite
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: racy too, wasn't it? Oh, yes.
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, the sort of this bit where Heathcliff hangs
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: a child over a banister.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah.
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: It's like, wow. You know, if I saw that on
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: TV today, I'd be a bit like, wow, that's a bit,
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: you know. But in the year in which they lived,
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: I think they were particularly brave.
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: I think so too, yes. Like I said, I quite
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: enjoyed it. we haven't got as much time today because
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: we've got an interview coming up. So I'm just going
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: to ask Sue, you've got a poem, haven't you, about
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: the Brontes?
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes, yes.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: Can you share it with me? You've got a cold,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: haven't you, Sue, like me?
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: Well, I've got, Chris, it's an allergy.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, is that what it is? Yeah, I've got a
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: bit of a cold.
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: My allergy has flared up, so it's given me all
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: kinds of hay fever and stumping at the moment.
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: Oh, gosh.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for coming on.
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: Sorry?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on the show.
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: Oh, no, no, you're welcome, you're welcome.
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: So this is called The Spirit of the Brontes Muse
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: and it's about their life, the four children at the
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: vicarage and it's seen from the inspiration that they sort
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: of gave to one another. So The Spirit of the
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: Brontes Muse. Sharp cutting wind was glittering outside and thin
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: ice fingers of snow seemed to tap on thick leaded
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: panes where we were inside. Dreaming fearful images as we
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: sat at the highly polished table, talking childishly about this
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: and that. Then Aunt Brownwell would tell us a fable,
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: staring our deepest health fears into fact. Yes, there were
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: always five of us at tea. Brownwell, Charlotte, Anne, Emily
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: and me. As we grew up, we would walk on
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: the moors. Where darkness and trees bent double with age
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: Would move us towards the wind that roars And we
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: would flee home, our minds in a rage To put
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: down our thoughts on a virgin white sheet Lands full
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: of mysteries, armies, monsters and sea Bloody battles where some
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: would face defeat In our magical kingdoms where all were
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: free Yes, there were always five of us at tea Brownwell, Charlotte, Anne,
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Emily and me Clocks ticked on and we had to
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: leave house and enter the kingdom of harsh real life
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: to earn a living and prove our worth. But for
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: each it ended in tears and strife.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: So back home.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: We came to our magical home where in fever we
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: wrote desiring to be read. Success came and suddenly we
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: were well known but it quickly turned cold for Bramwell
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: was dead. Now there were only four of us at
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: tea Sweet Charlotte, Cheyenne, Emily and me. Harsh grey shadows
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: hung over us, making us fear. Then they wrapped poor
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: Emily in her shroud. So strong and evil they were
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: soon snatching frail Anne away from her sister, so proud.
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: Charlotte alone with her grief would continue to weave magic
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: with her words and her lines until death returned and
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: took her away too. but they live on in other
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: people's minds. Today there is only one left at tea.
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: No Brownwell, Charlotte, Anne, Emily.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Just me.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, how harsh. It's actually quite unbelievable, really, that he
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: was left the father on his own. It's just so tragic.
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: Six children and he outlived them all.
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: I know. That could be a novel in itself, couldn't it?
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: It could. It could.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, before we choose our next book, okay, we're going
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: to just maybe rate out of ten for this novel. Okay,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: so I'll let you go first, Sue. Out of ten?
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: Eight.
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: Eight. Barry?
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Five.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Five. I think eight as well for me. I did
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: enjoy it, but I do like the historical novels as well,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: and I thought it was a bit different. So I
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: quite enjoyed it. OK, Barry, can you have the honours
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: of picking the next novel for next month? And by
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: the way, anyone who's listening, you're very welcome to join us.
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: You can read the book. You can even come into
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: the radio station and join us on the reading room.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: We generally have the reading room on a Thursday afternoon
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: at two o'clock every month. So, Barry, let's see what
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the next novel is.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Aldous Huxley, Brave New World.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Okay. How's everyone looking? Barry's looking at me because he
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: knows it was my choice. Has anyone ever read it?
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: I've read it a long time ago, yes.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not a historical novel anyway.
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: It probably is now, actually.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: It's more of dystopian, isn't it, which I like. What
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: were you going to say, Sue?
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: I was just going to say it's quite the opposite.
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: It's like science fiction, but I enjoyed, I will say
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: I enjoyed it first time round, but it'll be interesting
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: now to see how I appreciate it.
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: Shall we say, as an older person.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that'll be interesting. Barry, do you know what it's about?
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Have you any idea?
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 26:48
  Speaker 5: No, I'm guessing it's a novel about a dystopian future.
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: True, that's... Yeah, didn't take much to think that. Sue,
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: didn't you want to share some events with us as
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: well that's happening in St Helens?
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: Yes, I did, Krista. The first one is actually next Wednesday,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: so I hope I've got rid of this allergy.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: And it's actually 4th of November... And it's St Helens
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: in 50 buildings, and it's part one of it. And
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: it's an illustrated talk. And it's at one of your
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: favourite churches, Clifton. It's at St Helens Parish Church.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: And it's £ 5. And its booking is on 01744 22909.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Can you repeat that, please? 01744 22909. 22909, which is
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the church. I'll pay on the door.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: And what time is that?
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: And that's 7.30 till 9 o'clock.
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: I've actually got something booked in for that night, but
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I'm always intending to come. You know I am, Sue.
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I know that, Chris.
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: We're all very, very active people, aren't we? You've got
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: to be, especially in the winter.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 28:07
  Speaker 4: And the second one.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: It's Winter Chills, and it's Seasonal Gold Stories, written and
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: performed by myself. That's on Friday the 20th of November,
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: and that's 6.37, and it's, again, at Mr. Chan's Restaurant
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: in North Road, St.
• 28:25
  Speaker 6: Helens.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Yes, I know that place.
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: Indeed, and it's £ 20, including the delicious complimentary dim sum.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Booking is essential, and the number to ring, which is
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: Charlie's number, that's the restaurant number, 01744 451388. So I'll
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: just repeat that for you, Krista. It's 01744 451388. Okay.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: If anyone is interested in coming and they haven't got
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: those numbers, you can email me, and I am at
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: krista-schafer at... lcr, l-c-r.co. I'll check on that actually.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: But anyway, you can, you can email me even at
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: KristaShafer at yahoo.com too. You could email me there and
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: I can give you the information. Okay. So I'm going
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: to play the interview with Patrick Graham, who is, like
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: I've said before, he's a writer. He's written children's books
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: and he's written an adult book too. So We'll discuss
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: our next meeting. And yeah, thanks for coming, everyone. And
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: we'll see you in a month.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Okay bye thank you.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Bye sue speak to you soon bye bye bye sue
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: can you stay on the line for a bit yes
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: we'll do so this month's reading room guest is patrick
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: now patrick i don't know much about you you um
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: somebody recommended that i interview you because you are a
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: writer and an actor, possibly, script writer. So can you
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: just tell me what actually you do?
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: Well, as a job, I work for the Leaving Care Service,
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: working with children, just coming out from children's social care,
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: and we mentor them into adulthood, independent living, accommodation, employment, training,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: that type of thing. That's my main job.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: But, My other passion is creative writing, which I've done
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: for a number of years. But I'd say I've took
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: myself seriously and I openly call myself a writer for
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: like the last five, six years now. Okay.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: And what made you start to write? Have you always
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: written when you were younger or did you just start
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: to write as an adult?
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Well, obviously in school you did bits of writing and
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: stuff like that. But when it comes to creative writing,
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: it was in later adult life. But yeah, I did
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: like writing in school, like writing stories and whatever, but
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I never ever finished any. And the teacher would always say, oh,
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: that sounds really good, but you never seem to finish them.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: And then by the next lesson, you've moved on to
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: something else. And I didn't have that in me at
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: the time to take that home and carry it on.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: So after many, many years of not writing, or did
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: you write just for yourself in those years before you
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: started to write books?
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: No, it wasn't so.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: You just one day woke up, basically?
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, adult life where... I've started trying to hand that
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: writing from trying to write plays, poetry. I do write poetry,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: still do write poetry, but trying to hand that plays.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: You know, I've had one or two plays performed on
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: community theatre level. So, yeah, because I got involved in
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: a local drama group going back maybe 30 years now.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: It was called Shawfields Community Theatre. I then changed the
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: dingle then. They're still going in some capacity now and
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: they operate out of the Valley Theatre.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: So when you say you got involved, did you participate
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: or did you run it?
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: I participated as an actor and got involved in a
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: couple of plays. Toll Puddle 6, I remember, was one
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: play we'd done. And there was a couple of others.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: I can't remember the names off the top of my head.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: And then at one point, going back to City of
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: Culture year 2008, if I'm right, I was asked to
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: write a play myself then. And I did. That was basically,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: even though I'd attempted to write plays in my own time,
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: nothing that I'd ever shared with anyone. So this was
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: literally a drop in the ocean. And I did write
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: a play. And I was asked to write a play
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: during October. Well, it was for October. It was a
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: creative week exploring different themes and black history and so on.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: So I was asked to write a play about the
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: Tugasi Airmen in America, like the Black Air Force pilots
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: during World War II. But I thought, well, no. Not
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: that I didn't want to write about them. I thought, well,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: I'm born and raised in England, and I've noticed a
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: lot of Black history centers on America. So I thought, well,
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: let me do something that connects me, being born in Britain,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: having heritage in the Caribbean, and still keeping in the
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: theme of World War II. So I came up with
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: a story where I researched real people and then created
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: a fictional story around some of their real life events.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: And I called it My Mother's Children Don't Like Me.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: And I came up with the name first and then
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: worked backwards and thought, well, how can I now represent
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: that as a play? So it was based on a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Jamaican brother and sister and a Guyanese teacher and a
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Guyanese pupil. who had all listened to various radio shows.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: There was a program that was called This Is England Calling.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: It used to be broadcast on the BBC at the time.
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: And in the different respectful families, they listened to these shows.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: So at some point, they all decided to join the
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: war effort. And then there was a series of happenings.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Some of it was based on true accounts of people
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: who had researched. And then I wove a fictional story
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: to join it all together.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: So you'd never written a play before?
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: No.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: And you were able to write a play? Yeah. Had
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: you watched plays? I'd watched plays, I'd.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Been in plays, I'd seen scripts a lot, so that
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: gave me a lot to work from, you know what
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: I mean? It was like almost having a recipe book,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: in a sense, I could look at it like that,
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: and from that, I was just trial and error, and
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: It actually was a community theatre level play, but it
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: was really quite successful at the time.
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: You must have been really proud to see your play
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: being performed. That's an amazing achievement.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: It was performed in a couple of venues in 2008,
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: and then the following year, or the year after, got
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: it performed again. In fact, I think we were the
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: first performers that took place in the new John Moores
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: Arts Centre.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Down the side street where the old Irish Centre used
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: to be. We were the first people to perform in there.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: We've packed it out to a good crowd of whatever
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: the capacity was to 300 people.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. And so after you've written that play, is
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that when you started to write your novels?
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: Well, incidentally, 2008 is when that play was written. And
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: my first children's story, Three Little Jamaicans English Adventure, was
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: born in 2005, if I remember correctly. And that was
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: a BBC Writing for Radio course that was running through
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: BBC Merseyside. And I wrote that as a radio play.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: We learnt radio play formats, so I wrote it, which
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: was good. Learning all the different crafts and playwriting for stage,
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: playwriting for radio. story writing so it was good learning
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: things like that so that was written originally like that
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: and then not uncommon and four or five years later
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: I decided to change the format same story you know
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: but change it to a story format and then I
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: had a couple of beta readers one of them was
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: my niece I had my son reading he was like
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: oh that's good dad and I was like took him
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: with a large pint of salt my niece with someone
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: a bit more forward who would say what she felt
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: and she made certain constructive criticism, very good for like
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: a 10 year old. And it was aimed at that
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: age group, six, seven to 10, 11 anyway. So I
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: took into account what she said and then revamped it.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: And then I left it again for years. Then I
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: worked on it again a few years later, then left
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: it again. And then during lockdown, the Phoenix rose then.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: And it was like, everyone was stuck at home mainly,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: nowhere was open. I had no more excuses not to
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: be properly creative. And I thought, you know what? This
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: story I've been harping on about, let me put myself
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: on the spot. So I made a little one-minute video
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: saying I'm going to publish a book at the end
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: of the month and put it on Facebook. And I thought, right,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: it's out there now. If I don't publicise this, I'm
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: leaving myself open for questioning and criticism.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: That is fantastic. You must have good, strong self-discipline to
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: do something like that because a lot of people in
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: lockdown were just... vegging out weren't they in front of
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: the telly well done you for doing that.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: It was just a great time to be creative and
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: procrastination I had no excuse there was nothing to do well.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic well done and you self published it was
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: that a mission in itself to do that.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: It's funny how it came about because for a little
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: spell of two years I worked on the taxis between
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: 2018 and 2020 and Taxi men are known for talking.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: So you'd get in and you'd strike up conversations with
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: all different manner of people, you know what I mean?
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: And one guy was talking about he's a writer. I
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, I do some writing or dabble,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? I wasn't brave enough to
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: call myself a writer. And during the journey, maybe a
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: 10-minute journey, I literally dragged as much information out of
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: him as possible. And he was saying, no, if you write,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: you're a writer and blah, blah, blah. And he's published
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: something himself and he's self-published and whatnot and whatnot. And
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: he was saying how he'd done it through something called
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: KDP Amazon. And then within days, weeks after that, I
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: met someone else at a writing group who had also
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: done the same and then exchanged numbers and he sent
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: me a little video link about how to do it
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: and So the rest was history from there. It wasn't
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: difficult because I'm someone who's not that techie. You know
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: what I mean? I do the basics, navigating, but literally
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: you watch a YouTube video, which is about 12 minutes long.
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: I was literally just pausing it and following the instructions
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: and it just took you through it step by step,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: how to format it in Word and then how to
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: upload it into KDP Amazon and publish it like that.
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: Did you find you had to do a lot of
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: social media to get it out there?
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing, you see, when you self-publish, publicity
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: and marketing goes so far and you hit what I
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: would call a brick wall because, yeah, you've got social media,
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: you've got, you know, a certain following, couple hundred I
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: think at the time I had about 2,000 people on
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: Facebook I'd not long joined Instagram and it was like
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: well out of them 2,000 who actually interacts the algorithms
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: determine how far it goes and so on so it's
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: hard always constantly pushing it I was fortunate enough at
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: the time, I got an interview on BBC Mergeside. Also,
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: the community reporter for The Echo gave me a little
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: story about why I wrote the book. You know what
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I mean? So that was like a free advert. So
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: that was all good. You know what I mean? And
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: then after that, it seems to stop. It's just you
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: repeat yourself on social media and, you know, you need
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: to get that. I'd say there is an element of
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: luck in publicity and stories because you could have the
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: greatest story, but if it's not, in front of the
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: right person or the right hands, it can lose traction.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: And then from this book, this is a children's story,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: you said. What happened? Did you write any more books?
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Well, at the time in lockdown, during the October of lockdown,
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: I joined, I'd been on a few writing courses with
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: different organisations, but there was a course called Write to Work,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: which was run by an organisation called Writing on the Wall. Yeah,
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: I've heard of it.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: And I thought, well, okay.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I'm out of work at the moment. Not many people
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: were working, so I thought I'll go on that. And
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: it was over 10 weeks. There was two sessions a
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: week on a Tuesday and a Wednesday, like an hour
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: or two each. One of the sessions was the same
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: tutor for the 10 weeks, and the other 10 sessions
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: was somebody different each week. So you had someone who'd
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: come in and wrote for theatre, someone who wrote poetry,
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: someone who wrote children's stories. someone who wrote for TV,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: someone who wrote for film, someone who wrote copywriting, someone
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: who wrote for games, you know, video games, stories that
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: have stories in them. So it was a brilliant, it
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: was like being a chef and being given access to
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: this massive kitchen where all the ingredients are there and
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: you take what you need. And from all them different workshops,
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I was taking what I need. There's some things you say, oh,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I know that. So, yeah. but there was so much
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: that I didn't know, and you took a little bit
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: from everyone, and that, there was little writing exercises where
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: they'll give you the prompt, it could be a word,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: it could be a picture, and say, okay, you've got
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: seven minutes, write away, and like, then you'd read it
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: back and get feedback, and some of the little short
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: stories I wrote, a lot of people were impressed, and
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: were like, wow, have you just thought of that now?
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: And I'd be like, well, yeah, and I got a
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: knack for writing off prompts, so, um, the, Anthology of
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: short stories that I give you there, stories that make
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: you ask quiz, quid, quando, ube and qua, which is
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: Latin for who, what, when, where, why. I think eight
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: of the stories in that were written off a prompt.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: I know two of them were definitely off a picture. No,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: three of them were off a picture. And others were
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: off maybe one word or a sentence. And I'd just
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: start writing. No time to think about it, just writing.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: I'd literally... whatever, you just go into a zone and
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: you write and what comes out comes out. And then
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: obviously in seven minutes, you never finish it, but you
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: get a little scaffolding, so to speak. And then over
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: the next weeks, months, even years, because you might write
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: that and not touch it for six months and you
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: mess around with it for the day or two, then
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: leave it again for another year. And then, and that's
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: what I was doing over the, between 2020 and take 22, 23,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: messing about with them. every now and again, and then
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: in 2024, I thought, you know what, I've got maybe
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: 30 short stories, you know, most of them finished the
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: first draft, second draft, but not ready to share with
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: anyone to read or the public, so I thought, let me,
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: there's got to be a collection there somewhere, so I
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: dragged out 10 stories that I really liked, and then
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: edited them, edited them, edited them over and over, 10, 15,
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: because as a novice writer, your editing skills develop the
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: more you edit. So, you know, someone else might have
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: done three or four. I've done 20 and 30 in
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: read over. Well, it's a short story. It could be 1,000 words, 1,500.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: But you'd be surprised sometimes how long it can be
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: to do one edit, the early edits of 1,500 words.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: You know, it could take three, four hours or more.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: So it doesn't matter. Got them to the point where
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: I was fortunate to be on a writing course with
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Walter Mosley. Okay. And I remember asking him, how do
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: you know when your story's ready? And his answer was,
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: you write it and write it until you feel you
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: can't get it, take it anymore. Then it's ready to share.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: That's quite difficult though, isn't it? Because that could take forever.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did that and I wrote and corrected
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: and I thought, If there's mistakes there, even a punctuation,
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: I can't see it. I'm that close to it. I've
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: left it even for a week or two and gone back,
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: so I can't see it. So I started giving it out.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: Between the 10 stories, I'd give them out to different people.
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: So on each story, I was getting five, six sets
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: of feedback of different people, different ages, backgrounds. And some
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I was taking into account or the parts I'd say, well,
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: no way. I'm ignoring that. there's parts where someone says, well,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: that confused me. And I'd be like, yes, I wanted
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: to confuse you. That was me aim. I didn't think
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: it worked, but it was all said that. So that's
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: a box ticked. And when I got it back, I
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: went back to editing again and taking into account what
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: I wanted. And then I put it together. And again,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: so published that last year in May.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: That's amazing. So basically you have to be self-disciplined and
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: believe in yourself and enjoy the journey, I suppose, as well.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Definitely. Yeah. On one of them writing course, I remember
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: one of the tutors, like a lot of tutors say
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: similar things and a lot of them say so many
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: different things. They're all right and they all can't be wrong.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: That's how I look at it because I think, well,
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: that one size doesn't fit all in creative writing because
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: people say, oh, you need to just concentrate on one
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: thing and work on that and finish it. And I
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: find the majority say that. That doesn't work for me.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: I'm scatty brained where I describe myself as, like a
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: five-year-old with £ 50 in a sweet shop unsupervised. I want
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: some of everything. So I'm writing children's books, adults' books, novels,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: all at the same time, whatever. So I can't procrastinate
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: because if I get stuck on one, I can just
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: go to the other. What all people always say is,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: whilst you're writing, you're being productive.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Exactly, yes, and not wasting time.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: So for me, that's good. So I can bounce from
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: one to the other. And it works. My brain can
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: work like that, and it works for me. And other
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: people say, oh, I don't know how you could do that.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: And I say, I think, well, I don't know how
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: you could just concentrate on one thing and work on that.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't work for me.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: Have you got anything in the pipeline at the moment?
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: At the moment, I do want to... Well, I am
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: working on another anthology because, as I mentioned before, they
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: had over 30 short stories. Now I've got close to 50.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Some of them, you know, need a lot of work on. Others...
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: There's about four or five which I've edited a lot.
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: One or two of them I've been sending off to
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: short story competitions every now and again because I've took
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: them to where I think I kind of had feedback
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: on them and whatnot. So I'm working on them for
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: the anthology. I'd say my babies because these would be
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: like twins even though I haven't worked on them for
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: a while. One of them is there's a story there
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: called The Golden Water and the Enchanted Forest and this
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: other story was started maybe just before that one. And
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: it wasn't related at the time, but it will be
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: connected in some way. And this one's called The House
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: of Almost All Known Things. And I entered that into, again,
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: a writing on the wall competition called Pulp Idol. And
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: what it was is you give in the first chapter,
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: or the first chapter or 3,000 words, whatever you want
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: to do. Wow, a lot. I think I put in
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: about 15, 1600 words. If you were chosen, you went
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: into the heats. If you got through the heats, you
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: went into the final. I was fortunate enough to get
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: through to the final. And everyone in the final is
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: a winner because even though they have a first, second
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: and third, you're the winner because all them final entries
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: got put into an anthology of first chapters. So I
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: got my House of Almost All Known Things into that anthology.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: And during the heat, the first heat, I remember there
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: was supposed to be 12 people, but someone pulled out
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: last minute, so there's 11. I think I was like
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: ninth to read. And as I'm listening to the stories,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: by about the sixth, seventh story, I'm thinking, oh, my God,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: these are all like adult stories. Mine's a kid's story.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: And I started getting nervous in my head. And then
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: after hearing the eighth story, I was thinking, you know what?
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Given after all adult stories and mine's a children, maybe
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: I will stand out more. So I looked at that.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: I turned what was... becoming a negative into a total
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: positive and that just boosted my confidence tenfold where I thought, well, yeah,
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: mine's got to stand out more because it's a children's
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: story and everyone else's were adults.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: I love that. Did you read it yourself?
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I had like three minutes to read and, you know,
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: the judges were, liked it. They asked questions and really
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: flowed good because I was able to just give answers.
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Listen, we're running out of time now, so
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to ask you if you want to
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: tell the audience where they can get hold of your
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: books or if they can follow you on Instagram or
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: Facebook or Twitter or something. So can you just give
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: your information out?
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: I am on Facebook. I don't use it as much
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: as I should, but I'm getting back into the habit
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: of using it. But I am on Facebook. I have
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: my Facebook page, which is called Black... underscore out, underscore productions.
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: And Blackout Productions, incidentally, is my creative writing name.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: So black out, black underscore out.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Underscore productions.
• 49:59
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: You know, if you put Patrick Graham and put that,
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: you will get it.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: Or Patrick Graham, yeah.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: As you can see, the logo on my hat is
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: like a redacted document. Oh. So that was the idea.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Blackout Productions was born out of what we see
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: in redacted documents on TV shows. And I thought, well,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: someone who writes poetry about life, about history, who looks
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: at black history and reveals things, I decided to come
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: up with a logo, which is a contradiction of what
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: I do. So I created a little statement and redacted it.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: Very clever.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: And just left out three words. So that's my performance
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: stroke stage name, if you want to call it that.
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is brilliant.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: So, that's on Facebook. On Instagram, again, under the same name,
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: black underscore out underscore productions. Um, And I think I've
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: got this logo on Instagram as my profile picture. So
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: it's very distinguishable. You know what I mean? You can
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: easily spot it. A redacted document with Blackout Productions, three words.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: The books are all available. The Three Little Jamaicans English Adventure,
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: The Golden Water, and The Enchanted Forest. And stories that
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: make you ask quiz, quid, quando, ube, and qua, which
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: is Latin for who, what, when, where, why. Just to
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: add to the mystery. That's an anthology of 10 short stories,
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: mainly for adults. You know, 15, 16-year-olds should be able
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: to deal with it. The other two are children's stories.
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: They're all available on Amazon. And they're all available on
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: News From Nowhere Bookshop in Bold Street. Great bookshop.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: It is a great bookshop.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: So please support them, Independent Bookshop. And they offer great
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: support to local writers as well. And also the same
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: goes for Still Out of Print Books on Smithdown Road.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: which is just facing the Mystery Park main entrance as
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: you go towards Allerton Way.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: You know, Patrick, it was really a pleasure to talk
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: to you. And you are an inspiration. I feel like
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: I'm going to write a book next. No, I do
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: a bit of writing myself in any way. So thank
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: you so much for coming on to the show. And
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: hopefully you'll come back and let us know what happens
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: in the future.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. It's been a pleasure. And thank you for
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: having me. I enjoy talking about writing. Time goes so quick,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: as I If we sat here for three hours, I
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: wouldn't realise we've got to get back to work.
• 52:15
  Speaker 4: I know.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks again and best of luck for the future.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: Bye now.