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The Hammer Man Strikes: Harvey Carignan's Brutal Legacy · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:00
  They found maps of various states as well as a clump of hair made up of a composite of several
• 0:10
  different individuals, which is super gross. The maps had several locations circled through
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  out multiple states. One of which was where Kathy Sue Miller was discovered in Washington,
• 0:24
  while yet another circled location was where Laura Leslie Brock had been found dead, also in
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  Washington state.
• 0:32
  Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlyn. Hi, creepy people. Oh, hello. Hello. If you're new to our creepy
• 0:47
  corner of the world, this is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal,
• 0:54
  all things creepy in the Pacific Northwest. We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode
• 1:02
  for a little bit of deeper insight into our topic. Hmm, sister groan if you're into that. Yes, please.
• 1:10
  Yes. This is I'm guessing going to be a very long episode because I have like 90 million pages
• 1:20
  of notes. So, pretty sure you said that on your last episode. Yeah, no, it was kind of a long episode.
• 1:27
  Are you calling me a liar? No, I'm just saying. Why do you got to keep doing this to us? I don't know,
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  and it could have been so much worse because I was researching something else in the last couple of days.
• 1:40
  And even though I had a couple of things that were closer to completion, I thought, no, no, no.
• 1:48
  Let's start from scratch. And it turned out that was a big, ball of yarn. I wasn't ready to unravel all
• 1:55
  that. Oh, yeah. So, there we are. This was a case that was like, comparatively about, you know, the 80,
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  90% done. So we're wrapping her up. I was wanting to switch up the order. And I like to kind of
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  try to do different types of cases and just, you know, give people a little variety. This is
• 2:20
  different than the last one that I did. And it is, um, while I get, I'll just tell you, shall I?
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  Is it still sad? No, this one's so happy at the very end. Okay. So wait for it.
• 2:41
  Wait for it. Wait for it. Okay. Harvey Louis Carignan was born May 18th, 1927 in Fargo, North Dakota.
• 2:54
  Oh, yeah.
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  Beyond that, we're not going to dwell on his seemingly awful childhood much because to be frank,
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  including a bunch of his biographical data, really eats into our time. And it's
• 3:09
  feist to say that's already so much to cover. There's so much to cover in this case.
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  I want to know more about Fargo. No, I don't think you do. I, well, it gets a little like Fargo's
• 3:24
  movie. He's recounted bullying, physical and sexual abuse that occurred throughout his childhood.
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  And while it might inform us about his psyche, it obviously isn't going to excuse a single one of
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  the absolutely horrendous crimes that he committed throughout his life.
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  Harvey has been known as the Hammerman, the Hitcher, and the Want Add Killer at various times.
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  I don't want the Hammerman. It is not Hammertime. No, it is in fact never Hammertime.
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  But all of these aliases or monocurs have one thing in common. They denote an evil,
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  misogynistic and particularly sadistic serial killer. We're not going chronological to start with.
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  So hopefully everybody can get on board with moving around a little bit. Where's that white board?
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  I know. We need a white board. In fact, we're going to start around the time that he
• 4:31
  should have probably been buying a sports car or whatever else men do when they're having a midlife
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  crisis, like having a fair or dating ridiculously young women, I guess.
• 4:43
  Dying their mustaches. Yes, exactly. Yeah, see, she gets it.
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  I'm basing that on my extensive romcom research, of course.
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  Everything that would piss katherine heigl off essentially.
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  Never do that. Never do that. Anyway, we're starting off at a period of time when Harvey was already in
• 5:05
  his mid 40s. Rather than the gross aforementioned things that he could have done at the time,
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  he was committing a heinous crime. One of many that he is known to or suspected to have committed
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  for which he would never receive a conviction. Oh, great. Yeah, so
• 5:29
  cheerful. In Seattle on Wednesday, May 2nd of 1973, single mother Mrs. Miller was concerned about
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  her only child as the evening hours unfurled. Kathy was 15 years old about to turn 16 in less than a month.
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  She had a boyfriend and they had the most wholesome relationship.
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  She was a good girl who had rarely, if ever, given her mother cause for concern.
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  By 7pm, Kathy's mother began calling around to her friends to try to locate her daughter.
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  The mother and daughter had a rare disagreement recently as Kathy had wanted to take on a summer job.
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  She found an ad looking for a gas station attendant, which is not a job that I would
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  feel comfortable taking myself as an adult woman or certainly would not want my teenage daughter to
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  have. Yeah. When Kathy called about the position, the man stated that he needed to fill the position.
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  ASAP. Hmm. Her mother wouldn't be able to make arrangements to take her to meet the man and person
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  at the gas station for an interview and to fill out all the necessary paperwork right then and there.
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  Cause that's kind of a lot. Yeah. The man offered to pick her up at an intersection nearby her
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  home after school. But of course, Kathy's mother said, oh, he'll know. That's weird. Yeah, that is weird.
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  At the thought of their squabble, she began searching for the ad and quickly located it.
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  She called the number listed for the gas station and inquired whether Kathy had in fact done this despite
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  her disapproval. Uh oh. Oh. The man stated that he had driven to the agreed upon spot, but the
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  Kathy never showed. So he took off after a few minutes. Totally a believable story. Like what?
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  When her mother speaks to Kathy's boyfriend, he is apprehensive as he knows that she wasn't supposed
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  to take the appointment, but admits that he did wait with Kathy for the man to show up. Oh no. Yep.
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  He had a paper route and after waiting a while for the pickup, he had to take off to begin his afternoon
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  route, which I don't feel like you hear very much about people having an afternoon paper route.
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  Yeah, it's kind of weird. Is that a morning thing? Yeah, what kind of afternoon papers? Yeah, it's weird.
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  I don't know. That just struck me as like, oh, but obviously it's true and there's so whole
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  sum. He's not lying about his paper route, but he told Kathy she should go back home. He's like,
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  I don't think this guy's showing up. But of course, when he left, she was still standing there waiting
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  in hopes that the man would show up. Obviously, he's also now incredibly concerned about Kathy not having
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  returned home yet. Yeah. So Kathy's mom calls Seattle PD to report her daughter missing.
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  It wasn't well documented what action might have been taken in regards to the reported
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  disappearance that evening, but they did at least accept the report. Well, it's good. Yeah,
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  that is something. Did they say that she just ran away? I don't think that, you know,
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  interestingly enough, this is one of those cases where we're, I don't think we're going to get that
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  line classic, though it may be the next morning, the case is handed off to detectives, Dwayne
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  Holman and William Bowman. They follow up with Mrs Miller because their concern, the situation
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  seems suspicious as well, which I think probably had a lot to do with the details of like where she was
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  more than likely going. The boyfriend confirmed. And obviously, she hasn't come home overnight.
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  So that's more concerning. They go out to the gas station to interview the man
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  and are greeted by a man who is six two around 200 pounds. And his name is Harvey Louis Carignan.
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  He's the owner of the business. And it's a very successful local gas station. He employs a number
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  of teenagers in the area, which like, it was the 70s, but how are so many people like, okay,
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  with their kids like working at gas station shops? You know, I just, I don't know. I don't know. I can't,
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  I don't know. It was a simpler time. Yeah. It's a very successful gas station, though. Like I said,
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  Ann Bruehl, a famous true crime writer, ever heard of her maybe once. Yeah. She described Harvey as
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  a huge man with hands like, "Hams." Hands like, "Hams?" Hands like, "Hams." Like, "Hams."
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  And a ham like a honey-baked ham. Ham hands. A brow that resembled that of a latter day,
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  crow magnum man. I don't know about this. I will show you some pictures later. And, you know,
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  stunningly accurate in at least one respect for sure. So hopefully that paints a little bit of a
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  picture for you. You're welcome. Ham hands for sure. Ham hands. Yeah. Very descriptive. Yeah. Very big
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  hands. Basically like my arch nemesis when it comes to hands. I think it's a meaty mitts on them.
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  Yeah, meaty mitts, a way like that. He tells officers that he had wanted to hire a teenage boy,
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  but he'd been open to interviewing and hiring Kathy. He reiterated the same story that he told Kathy's
• 12:01
  mother. The man seems very obviously anxious in officer's presence. Aside from a stress sweat,
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  he also appears agitated by some of their questions. There were no witnesses stating that they saw
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  Kathy with this man. So there's nothing beyond their previously made plans to tie him to her
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  disappearance specifically. So not a lot to go on, but they're like, "Maspidy senses." You know? Yeah.
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  And a review of his criminal history does not take away from their suspicion.
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  He had a record dating back to the late 1940s when he was in his early 20s when he was enlisted in
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  the army. He was stationed at Fort Richardson in Anchorage, Alaska during this time.
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  On July 31st, 1949, a woman named Laura Schowalter, who was in her late 50s, was walking home from
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  the theater. Sadly, she never made it. Hopefully that was a really good movie that she saw that night.
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  I hope so. When her body was discovered, it appeared that she had died as a result of several blows to
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  her head. There was an eyewitness who'd stated he'd seen her in the very same spot where her body was
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  discovered the next morning. Only that evening, she hadn't been alone. He said there was a man with
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  her and they appeared to have been romantically or physically engaged. Oh. He didn't think much more
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  of it just assuming that the pair had been on the date. Yeah. I heard some different accounts that
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  indicated that maybe he shouted at the guy like, "Hey, you know, get a room." But it doesn't
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  appear that he intervened in any significant way. And how would you know? Yeah. Exactly.
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  The witness was able to provide a general description of the man. So authorities now knew that he was a
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  white man over six feet tall. Apparently that height would have been more remarkable back in the 70s.
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  Like people are taller nowadays and they went back then, I guess. He was a soldier likely in his early
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  20s with mutton chops. So he's got meaty mits and mutton chops. Nice. Yeah. The eyewitness was later able to
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  identify the man in a lineup. Harvey Louis Carignan. Oh. However, beyond that, they didn't have much to
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  be able to tie him to that crime. So I think it's not nothing, right? They did see this man with the
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  woman who is now super not alive. In the same place. Yes. That's pretty good. I feel like that's
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  significant. It's pretty circumstantial, maybe overall, but come on. Come on. Come on.
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  Then on September 16, 1949, there was the attempted sexual assault of a woman who is referred to
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  alternately in source material as either Dorcas Callan or Christine Norton. This is where it got
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  really weird. I wasn't able to determine why, but newspapers dating back to that time versus more
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  modern source material gave different names. It's possible that the victim had wished to remain
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  anonymous and so an alias was adopted. In any case, this time the victim was able to escape her
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  attacker and she went to the police to report the assault. She told them that she was attacked by
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  a drunken sailor. When she rejected the soldiers off-putting advances, that's when the encounter
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  becomes a violent attack. This second victim was able to identify him in a lineup in addition to
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  the witness that placed Harvey with Laura at the scene of that crime, strengthening the case
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  against Harvey. Wow. Yes. Now we have a surviving witness who was herself attacked.
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  By December 1949, he was found guilty of the murder of his first victim, Laura Showalter,
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  and was sentenced to death by hanging. Jesus Christ. Alaska did not fuck around. They did not suffer
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  fools. I guess they didn't realize that that was still a thing. Yeah. That's, you know, my
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  handful of years after World War II. Yeah. I just think of it like, you know, way back in the
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  pilgrim days, you know, the 1800s. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Oh. Yeah.
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  An announcement was made that he was to be executed on the morning of March 3rd, 1950. Spoiler alert.
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  He was not obviously. We've already talked about one crime. He committed well over two decades later.
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  Just in case that got lost for anyone. Maybe he's Jesus. We came back to that. Yeah. We don't have
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  the whiteboard. I'm just trying to help the date, time, and location of his scheduled execution were
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  all provided to the public, which I have some feelings and thoughts about, but we're not really here for
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  that. Still like public like out in the town square. I think a lot of executions were still done
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  publicly. I think in many cases, we didn't see that really fully go away until like, let's just say
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  this, our parents were alive. Prior to sentencing, his defense council had requested a new trial. Of course,
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  this request was denied by the judge who in turn sentenced him to death. His defense had cited
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  11 different grounds for the request, including that he had been promised that he would not be put to
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  death if he provided a confession. In 1951, he was granted a new trial on the grounds of his confession
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  having been improperly obtained. Because they were like, no, no, no, we don't kill people that
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  confess and then they were like, just kidding, switch a rule. Can't do that, man. No, you surely can't.
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  Don't call me surely. The Supreme Court overturned his death sentence due to a violation of the
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  McNabb rule, resulting in a sentence of 15 years from death to 15 years. 15 years. But then they did do
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  something that felt like kind of on the level of harshness of death. He was then transferred to
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  Alcatraz in 1952. Oh, yeah. That's funny. I just took the book down and replaced it with another book.
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  That's right. Gosh, I noticed that and I was like, she's going to need a book. I'll put it back up.
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  I don't know. Interesting. Yeah. From there, he would be paroled in 1960, after serving less than a decade
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  of his 15 year sentence. Wow. Just about half of it. I don't know how you go from death to that.
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  I just- Death to 15 years and then maybe you serve like eight. Why? Where did the death thing go?
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  I mean, the death thing when they took that off the table because they did come about that sentence
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  and the confession in a not super legal and ethical way. But I mean, I get that. But like, what happened
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  to life? Yeah. I mean, it went from the death sentence to 15 years then to okay, just kidding,
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  you can go now after that. Yeah. You were just about to kill this dude forever and ever and ever,
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  but then you let him out in eight years. Death is forever. I don't. Yeah. I don't. I'm not a fan.
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  Following his parole, he moved to Minnesota. Minnesota. It's several years later before Harvey
• 20:59
  is entangled in the legal system again. Like not that many. You know? Actually, like not
• 21:07
  anymore years. It's literally in 1960. Kind of like they should have kept him in prison. Yeah.
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  Yeah. No. I mean, he immediately turns around and was like, "JK, guys, I'm back." On August 5th,
• 21:22
  1960, he was arrested for burglary, assault, and attempt rape. But this time, he's in his early 30s.
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  So, you know, now we're going chronologically. Okay. From here forward, mostly, I think.
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  He was convicted of the charges and through some sort of sorcery, I assume of the Black Magic
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  Variety. He was sentenced to just two and a half years. Did they know that he was in jail before
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  and like was about to be hung for murder? I don't think so. I think that was part of the point of
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  moving across the country. They just, at that point in history, because jurisdictions didn't really
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  have like shared records. They don't... There's no like database, you know what I mean? Google it.
• 22:10
  Yeah. Well, they weren't real big on Google in Back then Man. Yeah. So, also two and a half years,
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  again, bringing your attention to the Black Magic. That is, burglary, assault, and attempted rape and
• 22:26
  only being sentenced to two and a half years. I don't follow. Yeah. He would serve two thousand
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  86 days in federal prison in Levenworth, Kansas, which Levenworth, I think, is you like, you probably
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  don't really want to hang out there. But... He's been some places, man. Sure has. This man is seeing
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  the world, mostly just here in the States and mostly prisons. Prison's of the world.
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  United States. When he was again paroled because, of course, he was, he then moved to Seattle. Great.
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  Predictively, Harvey had hardly changed his ways. Made clear when he was sentenced to 15 years
• 23:16
  at the Walla Walla prison in Washington State, or second degree burglary. Wow. 15 years from...
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  They got there. They got their sentencing. Oh, crazy. It is all over the board. We need the white board
• 23:32
  because it's all over the board. While incarcerated, he earned his GED and even took some college courses.
• 23:41
  Cassie, would you care to learn more about what he was learning? I mean, do I have to? Well, his course
• 23:49
  is included criminal psychology. Of course they did. Because of course. He was released on parole in
• 23:57
  1968 after serving about four years. Of the 15? Of the 15. Yep. From there, he met Sheila Moran.
• 24:11
  Quickly moving in with her and her daughter prior to the pair tying the knot.
• 24:16
  Oh. Though the marriage did not last, after he was jailed again in 1969 for another parole violation,
• 24:25
  Sheila divorced him. The filing cited physical abuse by her husband.
• 24:30
  Thank goodness, Sheila. Is anyone surprised by this?
• 24:37
  You have no idea. Thank goodness, Sheila. Okay. I'm going to tell you. This is not something that I
• 24:47
  understand to have been included in the divorce filing. It was a little unclear to me as to when
• 24:55
  exactly this story was shared and recorded for all of our posterity. But at one point in the
• 25:05
  marriage, he'd reportedly stated that he heard the voice of God telling him to attack Sheila with a
• 25:13
  hammer. Dude, he'd intended to kill her because that's what happens when you attack someone with a
• 25:22
  hammer. But the plan was thwarted when Harvey had a startling realization. He's crazy? Oh no, he's
• 25:32
  never going to come around to that one. No. In the very moment that he was poised to attack,
• 25:39
  it was actually his stepdaughter. He had apparently been silently surveilling from downstairs in the
• 25:48
  basement, clutching his hammer in his ham hands. God hadn't intended for him to kill her.
• 25:59
  So thankfully, at least this one awful plan was abandoned. Okay. So freaking bizarre and alarming.
• 26:09
  So he said that he was like about ready to go up the basement stairs presumably and attack who he
• 26:19
  assumed was his wife. But he realized all of a sudden he's like those footsteps sound really light.
• 26:26
  Oh my god. And he was like, because they're a child. Wow. Well, fuck, I'm glad he didn't decide to kill
• 26:34
  both of them. Yeah, I don't think the mom was actually even there. I think he thought it was his
• 26:42
  wife coming home, but it just was the stepdaughter. So lucky, lucky girl that day. Wow, wow, I'm going to
• 26:50
  say in that he didn't like try to do it when the mom got home later. You know, like it, what made him
• 26:55
  just completely stop. Yeah. I. There are a few situations where there's really not a lot of rhyme or
• 27:04
  reason. It just, I don't know. I'm the meme. Yeah. Of course, Harvey was not the type to be held down
• 27:16
  by time in the pen or failed relationships. Shortly after his release following the parole violation
• 27:23
  as the 1960s came to an end, he met and married another woman.
• 27:29
  Her name was Alice Johnson and she had two children, a boy and a girl ages 11 and 14 respectively.
• 27:41
  Oh, I'm worried about them all. Yep. In the early 70s, it seems like he kept a slightly lower criminal
• 27:49
  profile for a second. His main vice appeared to be speeding, but appearances aren't everything, of course.
• 27:59
  In October of 1972, Laura Leslie Brock of Bellingham went missing. When she was later discovered,
• 28:10
  she was completely nude with the exception of Navy socks in the Oak Harbor area.
• 28:16
  Her cause of death was declared as multiple blows to her head. No, no one does.
• 28:25
  Laura had been a sophomore at Western Washington State College. She had been raped and had been
• 28:33
  beaten and bludgeoned with an unidentified object. At the boarding house where she was living,
• 28:40
  she'd left a note stating that she planned to visit the beach. Her grandmother confirmed that
• 28:46
  it was Laura's intention to hitchhike despite her cautioning against it. She was traveling from
• 28:54
  Bellingham to the Olympic Peninsula. Harvey has never been charged in connection with Laura's
• 29:03
  murder. In fact, no one ever has. But he received a speeding ticket in the area during the period of
• 29:11
  time that she went missing. Oh my god. It's just like a casual two murders now that he's not officially
• 29:18
  been charged with. Just just just just the two. But he was right there in the area. Yeah, just hanging
• 29:24
  out doing ham-hand stuff. Oh god. Yeah, and then there was the fact that there was a witness that
• 29:33
  stated they saw her get into a vehicle matching the description of Harvey's very unique camper truck,
• 29:40
  which we will come back to because it is so unique. So what's the problem? That's like he was there
• 29:49
  some time. Where's the lineup? I mean, put that bitch in another lineup. All that means is that she got
• 29:57
  into his truck though. In theory, I mean, again, you got to have some sort of evidence tying him
• 30:03
  not just to the victim, but to the crime itself. Did they search the truck? They're going to conduct
• 30:10
  a search of his truck. Not right now. Not right now, but they will. It will happen.
• 30:21
  At some point, after it's been cleaned. Oh, well, he does get a cleaned more than once. For sure. Yes, yes.
• 30:36
  We've got something we're really excited to share with you guys. Let's hear a few words from our new pod
• 30:42
  besties. Can you hear me? Good to have you back with us. I hope you don't mind that I am recording
• 30:52
  for investigative notes. It's a wax cylinder. The only thing we found that can pick up the voices of
• 30:58
  people in your condition. My name is Owen von Sid. I am a reclamer. Do you know what that means? No?
• 31:06
  Well, I am sorry to inform you that you didn't make it. Please try to remain calm. The worst is over.
• 31:15
  Nothing can hurt you, not ever again. But the thing that did this to you, it is still out there.
• 31:23
  That is what we do. I wake unfortunate souls, such as yourself. Hear their stories. Then my associates
• 31:30
  and I see to it that whoever or whatever did this to you is dealt with. Now, let's begin. When you are
• 31:39
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• 31:49
  tales productions. New episodes releasing weekly. Look for us wherever you get your podcasts.
• 31:55
  Check them out, creepy people. You can find their info in our show notes.
• 32:02
  Now, we are right back to where we started with Kathy. It was May of 1973 when Kathy went missing.
• 32:14
  So, just to kind of wrap this up with a little low here. October 72, that's when Laura
• 32:22
  goes missing and then her body is discovered. And then May of 1973 is when Kathy went missing.
• 32:33
  After a super-legit job interview and that's all there is to it.
• 32:42
  I don't believe you. Yeah, I wouldn't either.
• 32:47
  Police informed Kathy's mother about the status of the investigation and their suspicions about
• 32:55
  the man who reportedly may have been the last person to see her daughter alive. Unfortunately,
• 33:03
  at this point, they don't have enough to arrest him. Really, they don't even have enough for a
• 33:09
  search warrant at this point. Somehow? Because no one like saw him actually with her or did they?
• 33:16
  No, nobody did really. Not at that point. She then received a call from a man who said he discovered
• 33:27
  some schoolbooks in the parking lot of a business complex. He discovered that there was a name
• 33:33
  and phone number inside. He was attempting to return the books to the proper owner. So awesome.
• 33:41
  So cute. When the books were turned over to the police, they attempted to lift fingerprints from
• 33:48
  them to try to drum up any possible new clues. Sadly, Kathy's body was discovered by two boys on a hike
• 33:57
  in the Tulalip reservation north of Everett, Washington. She had been wrapped in viscuine plastic.
• 34:07
  What is that? Just like plastic wrap. It's kind of heavier duty. A lot of times people will put it down
• 34:15
  when they're doing various like home improvement projects. Okay. She'd been beaten with a heavy object,
• 34:22
  leaving large holes in her skull. Some of them were roughly nickel sized, which is that's a lot of force.
• 34:31
  Yeah. But that horrific discovery wasn't the only development in the case. A friend or acquaintance
• 34:39
  of Harvey's reached out to law enforcement to inform them that he had given some viscuine to Harvey.
• 34:48
  They asked for any of the role that he still had in his possession to try to match the cut edges of
• 34:55
  that sample to the piece that was wrapped around Kathy's body. A little bit of a reach probably,
• 35:02
  but like, hey, that's like smart. Yeah, like I'll take what I can get.
• 35:06
  Following this discovery, despite there not being an obvious match, they are able to obtain a search warrant.
• 35:17
  Reportedly, witnesses saw a truck driving onto the reservation near the area where the body was discovered
• 35:24
  and specifically on the date Kathy went missing. Also way more specifically, the vehicle was
• 35:33
  described as a Chevrolet camper truck. It was yellow with black stripes and a silver canopy.
• 35:42
  What's with the black and yellow like a DB-tuber? Wasn't his a raft? Oh yeah.
• 35:48
  Black and yellow too. Yeah, it was. What's with these like bright, obvious look at me.
• 35:54
  It's not great. It's not great because it's really attention-getting. This was also, I know you'll
• 36:01
  be surprised to hear this, but it was a perfect match for Harvey's vehicle, but none of the witnesses
• 36:09
  were able to specifically identify the driver. So I guess our working theory is that now Harvey's
• 36:17
  very, very unique vehicle could have been stolen and driven by someone else. Totally. Did he
• 36:25
  report at missing or stolen? No, I don't think so. I feel like he might miss that if it were gone.
• 36:31
  I would think so. Yeah, where's my bumblebee? Kathy had never been fingerprinted. Unidentified
• 36:41
  prints were found inside his vehicle because you know they did go ahead and give it a little
• 36:46
  just a little looky-loo, but unfortunately they had no way to compare them to who they thought.
• 36:57
  So no fingerprints from Kathy. There are fingerprints in the truck, but they cannot match.
• 37:04
  Why don't they have Kathy's fingerprints? She just was never fingerprinted. Why? I don't know.
• 37:11
  I don't know. And I think the condition of her body sadly did not make taking her fingerprints
• 37:17
  after her body was recovered possible. That makes sense. So thankfully, a comparison of
• 37:26
  dental records proved successful and they had a match. So they were like, yeah, this is super
• 37:34
  duper Kathy. They just couldn't match the prints that were in the truck too Kathy. So that wasn't
• 37:41
  super helpful. Could they not like go to her room and take fingerprints? I mean, I guess they could have
• 37:50
  tried that. Come on, let's go back in time. Let's try to rework this. Yeah. Yeah, that would be so cool.
• 37:58
  From that point on, whenever possible, they surveilled Harvey, hoping that he might return to the
• 38:06
  scene where her body had been discovered, which is not a bad theory because that's a thing that
• 38:12
  does happen frequently in these cases, but he might know that because he studied criminal psychology.
• 38:20
  So of course, he wouldn't go back. I mean, or yeah, he didn't that we know of, but it's possible.
• 38:28
  I don't know. I don't know his life beyond these nine plus pages. Harvey's family meanwhile is being
• 38:39
  interviewed by law enforcement in the months that followed. His stepson went to live with his father
• 38:46
  reportedly due to physical abuse by Harvey. The stepdaughter didn't seem to like or feel comfortable with
• 38:54
  him. Weird. There may have been some accusations at one point or another about some sort of inappropriate
• 39:03
  behavior, but that was a bit murky. But she was still living with her mother and Harvey in their home
• 39:12
  while he's being investigated. But remember, she's about the same age as Kathy was at the time of her
• 39:18
  disappearance and murder. So that is so creepy. It was June of 1973 when Mary Townsend was attacked
• 39:29
  while waiting at a bus stop. She had been knocked unconscious, but awoke in a strange man's vehicle.
• 39:37
  He tried to sexually assault her, but she left from a moving vehicle to escape him. Yeah.
• 39:44
  Bold moves. Like not that I want you to have to do that. No, God damn you. Do anything to get out of
• 39:52
  that situation. Holy shit. When you're between a rock and a hard place, jump out of the car.
• 39:56
  And you're like, when the car came into this, she had been a runaway at the time of her attack. And
• 40:03
  that's likely the reason, at least in part why she didn't report it. Despite that fact, this attack
• 40:12
  has also been linked to Harvey. As for his wife Alice, she was apparently trying to leave him around
• 40:19
  this same time, because she's like, this situation is looking tenuous at best.
• 40:28
  Get out. She was not wrong. Yeah. When she filed assault charges in July of 1973, it did allow
• 40:37
  police to pick him up, even if it wouldn't allow them to hold him for long. In September of 1973,
• 40:45
  he picked up 13-year-old hitchhiker Jerry Billings. He forced her to perform sexual acts on him,
• 40:54
  while he assaulted her with a hammer. Surprisingly, Harvey released this traumatized child.
• 41:03
  She had survived, but would not speak of the horrifying incident until many months later.
• 41:10
  God, she's 13. Yeah. And sometimes that's how trauma works. People don't always
• 41:18
  immediately flee the scene and go to the police, though that is a very good instinct. But sometimes,
• 41:26
  I mean, God damn, that is what trauma can do. And she's not the first or the only. So...
• 41:35
  And you said she was a runaway or was that from... That was the previous. Yeah. They're so nasty.
• 41:41
  I know. And it's gonna get so much worse. By mid 1974, Harvey had given up on the idea of reconciling
• 41:52
  with his wife Alice and had begun dating another woman, Elaine Hunley. Elaine, no, yeah. And honestly,
• 42:02
  how these two struck up a relationship is puzzling. Okay, this is so weird. Their meet cute came about
• 42:13
  when he found her on the side of the road after her car had broken down. So I'm sorry. How does she end
• 42:23
  up being someone he carries on a relationship with and doesn't murder? Yeah. Because that seems
• 42:30
  to be his thing like by the people on the road. Very strange. But the pair ended up
• 42:37
  shacked up in Minnesota. Again, Minnesota. Yeah, back to Minnesota. The law enforcement had been
• 42:46
  able to hold him at least temporarily due to other charges as they built a case against him.
• 42:52
  For Kathy Summiller's murder, they weren't able to prevent his relocation.
• 42:59
  Harvey had sold the gas station and moved as he'd made his way back to Minnesota,
• 43:05
  fleeing as he had become the number one person of interest in connection with Kathy's murder.
• 43:13
  He was said to have passed through California. On his way to Minnesota from Washington? Yeah.
• 43:25
  I'm glad you picked up on that because my next line is doesn't seem like that's the most direct route
• 43:30
  probably, but I'm not that great with geography, but I feel like Minnesota is not down there. Not in
• 43:36
  that direction. He's just taking the scenic ground. Notably during this period, the bodies of multiple
• 43:45
  young women were found in the area as he was passing through. Some of those cases remain unsolved
• 43:53
  because there were a lot of serial killers in the mid-70s in California, but he literally has
• 44:00
  speeding tickets in the area where some of these women were murdered and I'm just saying,
• 44:07
  maybe. Wow. Yeah. So why is speeding? What you trying to get away? Why? Why? Why you got
• 44:18
  joy so fast? Because you went the wrong way in Minnesota's in the other direction? Or because the
• 44:27
  the woman you just killed is in that direction. Maybe a little bit both. When Elaine inevitably broke
• 44:36
  up with him, because where he's a piece of shit, it didn't take long for her to suddenly disappear.
• 44:46
  No, Elaine. Yeah. She left him August 9th of 1974 and it thankfully didn't take long for those
• 44:57
  closest to her to report her missing. They're like, weird how she's not showing up to anything,
• 45:03
  including her job. I wonder if we should be concerned about that. And they were like, yeah,
• 45:09
  yeah, you know what? We took a vote and we decided, yes. Someone check on Elaine. Elaine. She okay.
• 45:16
  She is super done. Okay. Her body was discovered just over a month after her disappearance.
• 45:23
  Her death was clearly a homicide. The beating she endured leading to her school actually imploding.
• 45:33
  Horrifying. I had to read that several times over. I'm like, I'm sorry. Did you say implode? That is
• 45:44
  what? Every time you say something about the school, I just go back to the Lizzy Board and
• 45:53
  the pictures of the parents' goals and like, I, this is one of those cases where I'm like, your
• 46:04
  school's not supposed to do that. She was also raped with a foreign object, a tree branch. No,
• 46:16
  why? Which is like, okay, a stick is, that's, it's all bad. It's real bad. A tree, a branch.
• 46:26
  Men are so fucking gross. Well, this man certainly, I mean, come on, let's be honest. Nurse,
• 46:37
  he's not the only one, but I have no further. That's all I want to say.
• 46:45
  I hope he's getting sexually assaulted with a tree branch every single day in hell.
• 46:50
  It's funny you should say that because there is a very happy ending to this story that I feel like
• 46:56
  is sort of, it feels like poetic justice. It's not like a tree branch, but you might argue
• 47:04
  possibly even more horrific. So something to look forward to. Great. Yeah.
• 47:13
  What page are you on? Seven. Though each of his crimes have been incredibly brutal, it seems
• 47:23
  this marked a turning point or perhaps the better term might be escalation. That's what I was thinking.
• 47:31
  Yeah, carrying out such a horrific attack on his own partner rather than a stranger seemed to have
• 47:38
  Harvey, I would say fully unhinged because the following month he would perpetrate an astonishing
• 47:48
  number of attacks, those some ended in markedly different ways compared to Elaine.
• 47:53
  Remember before when you said there's just so many, it's happening so fast.
• 48:00
  Buckle up buttercup because holy shit, it is about to, it's fast and furious style. Like it's like
• 48:09
  the 11th one. I don't want to go fast. I don't know. If you ain't first, you're biased. I want to be
• 48:16
  last. In early September, two teenage girls named June and Lisa were offered $25 each by a man
• 48:25
  driving by to help him retrieve his son's vehicle from somewhere in the nearby area. Kind of vague and
• 48:32
  they were like, "Twenty-bottles." So they happily agreed. Do anything for $25?
• 48:37
  They're about to walk into a basement and like I'm screaming. I just threw popcorn everywhere.
• 48:44
  But honestly, you should be able to take $25 from someone asking you to help them. Like there shouldn't
• 48:51
  be anything wrong with that. But just to be clear, you're super-can't. Don't get in cars with strangers.
• 48:57
  The only safe way to do gig work is probably through something like fiber or task rabbit or something.
• 49:06
  You want your movements to be tracked. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Eventually, they realized that they appeared to
• 49:14
  be going quite a bit further out of the way than he had described. When questioned about this,
• 49:21
  he reportedly asked the girls, "And nothing can prepare you for this question, especially when you are
• 49:28
  traveling in a vehicle out of town with this man." He asked, "Would you rather be killed or would you
• 49:37
  rather be raped?" That's not a fun game of "Would you rather?" No. That's you're doing it wrong.
• 49:45
  Doing it so wrong. So wrong. You're supposed to ask, like, "Would you rather eat a booger or like
• 49:51
  swallow a bug?" Yeah. Suck down a fart. I don't know. Yeah. It's not weird. It's not. Not appropriate.
• 50:03
  Well, they actually responded, which I wasn't expecting, but I feel like they just wanted to make
• 50:09
  their wishes known, I guess. One of the girls replied on both of their behalf, which also kind of presumptuous,
• 50:16
  okay? Stating that they would rather be killed and turns out her friend agreed, because she was like,
• 50:23
  "Yeah, pretty much. Damn. Yeah." When he finally stopped the vehicle, his instructions were that one of
• 50:30
  them was to stay in his truck while the other followed him to retrieve his son's vehicle. So he's
• 50:37
  picking up the story about how we got them out there in the first place. I need help getting my
• 50:44
  son's car. And they're like, "Okay, okay." Still though, like, what choice do you have? So one of the
• 50:52
  girls accompanied him following him into the woods. And she happened to be the one that he attacked
• 50:59
  with a hammer. But miraculously, somehow she does survive. In a shocking twist, he apparently
• 51:08
  allows both girls to live and just drives away in his truck, which I feel like kind of
• 51:15
  downplays the fact that he attacked her and like, he left them both essentially for dead.
• 51:27
  So he did attack them both? Um, unclear. I'm given to understand that it was just one of them that he
• 51:36
  physically attacked. Since fucking off all no matter what I had. Yeah. Yeah. Then something even
• 51:46
  weirder happens over the next few days. Multiple different young women come forward to the authorities
• 51:53
  to describe a man and his vehicle that had attacked them. What? Who could be responsible for that?
• 52:03
  Is it the same vehicle? Yeah, they're all describing the same dude and the same. Is it the same one he
• 52:10
  had before the black and yellow camper thing? You know that? I think so. I don't think he even swapped
• 52:15
  out the vehicle. Yeah, which is wild. Wild. This is like animal planet level. Wild. Actually,
• 52:25
  the animals aren't even this wild. Is this a speculative documentary? This isn't real, right?
• 52:36
  It's like the mermaid. It's not real. Oh, it's unfortunately very real. Yeah.
• 52:41
  Okay. Then on September 14th, 1974, Gwen Burton is picked up from a Sears parking lot where she was
• 52:55
  apparently having car trouble. The man had told her he could help fix the issue with her car and she
• 53:02
  had agreed, accepting the offer to ride along with him to pick up his tools, which is like, why do I need
• 53:09
  to go with you? Yeah. Can you help with my tools? Yeah. I mean, I guess back then, I think especially,
• 53:16
  you're just like, oh, this person's going to help me. I'll just go along to keep him company. But
• 53:20
  like he's a grown-ass man. He'll be all right. He was alone when you found him.
• 53:26
  Anyways, not her fault just saying, don't do it. Right. She became suspicious after some time seeing
• 53:33
  how far out of the way the man appeared to be taking her. She asked him to take her back to her
• 53:40
  vehicle or even just to let her out where they were. However, he refused and of course then attacked her.
• 53:47
  He began ripping at her clothing and choking her. He took her to a field where he then raped her
• 53:56
  with a hammer before beating her with it. Following this brutal attack, he simply, he's like,
• 54:05
  bad, deuces, he flees the scene. He just leaves. Unbeknownst to him, Gwen is still alive and struggles
• 54:14
  a way to try to get help. She would later identify Harvey in a lineup. Yeah. However, the brutality continued
• 54:28
  as Harvey picked up two additional young female hikers, Sally and Diane. The most wholesome names
• 54:36
  and he forces them to do not necessarily super wholesome thing. He forced them to perform oral sex
• 54:47
  under the threat of violence because they weren't going to do it because he was so good looking. Again.
• 54:52
  Cannot, cannot, cannot overstate that. They were eventually able to escape when Harvey later made a
• 55:03
  stop for fuel. Cannot make this shit up. You might think that as more victims seem to be escaping his
• 55:13
  oversized man hands that his reign of terror must be coming to an end. Well, not quite yet,
• 55:21
  unfortunately, though law enforcement from more than one state was they were like, buddy, we're
• 55:29
  onto you. And also don't call me buddy, pal, guy, friend. Harvey was still on his brutal bullshit.
• 55:37
  So there's another disappearance in September of 1974. So like September, September, September,
• 55:47
  so many horrible things. It's a rough time. You know, you think back to school is rough. That's when
• 55:55
  Kathy Schultz went missing. Her brutally beaten body was discovered in a cornfield outside of
• 56:04
  Minneapolis. Her school had imploded. Never gets easier to say that or this and she too was raped
• 56:15
  by a foreign object. As if that wasn't bad enough, sadly, she had actually attended school with
• 56:25
  two of his very recent prior victims, Sally and Diane. In his hasty attempt to distance himself from
• 56:35
  this latest crime, he left tire imprints where he'd abandoned Kathy's body.
• 56:42
  When law enforcement searched Harvey's vehicle in Minnesota, following the death of Elaine
• 56:51
  Hunley, remembered this as his ex-girlfriend and he was like, if I can't have you, nobody will.
• 56:56
  And she was like, oh no, I imagine. They found maps of various states as well as a clump of hair
• 57:06
  made up of a composite of several different individuals, which is super gross. He had a hair doll.
• 57:13
  Not a hair doll. It was like just like a clump of hair. I don't think he was trying to make a doll.
• 57:18
  You don't know. I don't know. I don't want to know. That's creepy. That's too much for me.
• 57:24
  The maps had several locations circled throughout multiple states.
• 57:29
  One of which was where Kathy Sue Miller was discovered in Washington while yet another
• 57:37
  circled location was where Laura Leslie Brock had been found dead also in Washington state.
• 57:46
  Kathy Sue Miller and Laura Leslie Brock had gone missing within just a few months of each other.
• 57:52
  And remember, he was a person of interest in Kathy's case before he fled to Minnesota.
• 57:57
  Thankfully, multiple victims that had escaped his clutches were all able to identify him.
• 58:05
  June, Lisa, Sally, and Diane all positively I did him as their attacker,
• 58:13
  which is kind of a lot of witnesses. Yeah, it seems pretty damn solid. Yeah.
• 58:20
  Maybe don't let him go this time. When he was charged in relation to these crimes,
• 58:25
  that he was believed to have committed in Minnesota, Harvey hired an attorney.
• 58:30
  He would go on to confess to multiple killings, though he claimed that God had instructed him to
• 58:39
  do these things, which is, I don't know, man, like God's kind of all over the place in the stories I've
• 58:47
  heard. Sometimes he's like, "Kill one of your kids!" And then sometimes he's like,
• 58:51
  "You know, I'm trying to convince people not to cut babies in half."
• 58:55
  And it's really all over the board. Again, just another good reason for the white board situation.
• 59:01
  But I didn't cross. So apparently we're going for the insanity defense. I mean, he seems like legit.
• 59:12
  Something's going on in there. I mean, there's not right. Yeah. He was charged with attempted
• 59:19
  murder and aggravated sodomy, which he would have to go to trial for prior to any additional
• 59:27
  murder charges. Harvey was then sent to St. Peter's State Hospital for a pre-sentencing
• 59:34
  psychiatric examination, where he was diagnosed with a severe anti-social personality disorder.
• 59:41
  By mid-1975, things are kind of starting to fall in place in terms of the legal case against him.
• 59:52
  Harvey was found guilty in connection to multiple charges filed against him for the attacks on
• 59:57
  Jerry Billings and Gwen Burton. Because also, you know, some of them, they Gwen was like, "That's
• 1:00:05
  super him!" Right there in the lineup, I see him. It was that guy. So he was sentenced to 30 years
• 1:00:14
  for each, though he was only ordered to serve 40 of the 60 years that he was sentenced to in total.
• 1:00:22
  Not really sure why, but it really doesn't matter. Because next, he was indicted on murder charges
• 1:00:28
  in the cases of Catherine Schultz and Eileen Hunley. Harvey pled guilty to the second-degree
• 1:00:38
  murder charge in the case of Catherine Schultz receiving a 40-year sentence. He was found guilty
• 1:00:46
  of Eileen's murder as well, because duh. However, this first-degree charge carried a life sentence.
• 1:00:55
  There were Supreme Court shenanigans, but his conviction was appelled in 1978.
• 1:01:02
  And the next couple of decades were relatively uneventful
• 1:01:10
  until his prostate cancer diagnosis in the late 90s. I'm trying so hard not to smile with
• 1:01:18
  Lee. Feels still somehow like maybe a little mean to...
• 1:01:24
  Dorothy, the speeder. No!
• 1:01:33
  Anywho, he died in "You're Not Even Gonna Believe This Cassie." I had to quadruple check this. He
• 1:01:42
  died in March of 2023. Like? That's last year. A year and a half ago. Wow. At the ripe old age of 95,
• 1:01:54
  after serving nearly five decades behind bars for his crimes. Good. I mean, he made it for
• 1:02:01
  last time. But like, that's also not to mention all the time that he served as a younger man.
• 1:02:07
  But like, five, almost five-fold decades. For a handful of the crimes that like we know,
• 1:02:16
  me like, dude, did it. They didn't get him on everything. There are two murders that...
• 1:02:21
  It's like, we... Again, I think we know even if we don't like, know he did it. Yeah.
• 1:02:30
  Kathy Sue Miller and Laura Leslie Brock. I mean, they were spotted in his vehicle or his vehicle
• 1:02:38
  was spotted near where their bodies were fat. Listen, I don't like to say. And normally I would,
• 1:02:45
  you know, allegedly, allegedly. You couldn't force me to give a single flying fuck.
• 1:02:52
  You can't sue us. He super did it. But just funny because, you know, not a tree branch, but
• 1:03:00
  something did literally climb up his ass and kill him. Yeah. Well, but a cancer. Super awesome.
• 1:03:06
  I don't know if it was actually the cancer that killed him. Most of what I could find out there
• 1:03:12
  basically said he died of natural causes. I don't know what that is exactly. I don't know. He was
• 1:03:18
  diagnosed with cancer in the late 90s. And then he lived for like 25 more years. So... Man, I hope
• 1:03:27
  it was a really painful. Yeah. Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. Am I right? I hope we got no pain
• 1:03:34
  meds. Yeah. I mean, I don't think they're big on rolling out narcotics to violent offenders, but
• 1:03:41
  what do I know? Hashtag, not a doctor. Well, I wish they would have fucking just hung him in the
• 1:03:49
  first place. I mean, just could have saved like potentially, you know, I don't so many lives.
• 1:03:58
  So many lives. I have a trauma of so many young girls and women too. Even the survivors.
• 1:04:04
  Like, rampage after. Yeah. Yeah. September was like a rough time. 1973. And then, let me say,
• 1:04:17
  I think it yeah. And then 74 back to back like rough times. But September 74 is when it just
• 1:04:26
  like dude, you got a calm down. I need you to take several seats. Do you think he just like knew he
• 1:04:33
  was getting caught soon? Or maybe it was just his sickness was just getting worse. Yeah, I just feel like
• 1:04:39
  it's it's so classic. We just see this with so many serial killers where, you know, they talk about
• 1:04:46
  it in every, you know, true crime series or, you know, even fictional or not.
• 1:04:52
  Everything that you watch about crime and they talk about how, you know, escalation. And it's like,
• 1:04:59
  I feel like at some point they just sort of get to a stage where they either think they can't,
• 1:05:05
  like they're invincible. They can't get caught. There's sort of the myth that they want to get caught,
• 1:05:11
  but I think they just reach like a fever pitch. It just becomes a frenzy and they don't give a
• 1:05:17
  shit what evidence they leave behind. They either think they can run forever or they just don't care.
• 1:05:24
  Yeah. So I don't know. Please catch me. Don't. I'm gonna do my thing over here. I'm just over here
• 1:05:30
  being a ham hand. Ham hand having son of a bitch me and my hammer for laughs. So all the ones where
• 1:05:40
  you had said that they passed from like the blunt forest trauma. It was, do they think it was all a
• 1:05:47
  hammer or different? There were in some of the cases, it was clear that like some sort of a weapon
• 1:05:55
  or object was used, but there was indeed, I think it was the first murder where it was alarming
• 1:06:05
  because this woman was, I mean, completely unidentifiable. Like you could barely tell that she was human.
• 1:06:13
  And the horrifying realization that they came to, and this was something that I didn't include,
• 1:06:23
  but now that you're asking. Sorry. No, it's, they were a horrifying realization that came to them as,
• 1:06:31
  you know, they were examining the body and everything. They realized, oh my god, we thought that this
• 1:06:39
  woman was like beaten about the head with an object. And this was nope, just his ham hands,
• 1:06:47
  he did this with his bare hands. That was, I believe, Laura Showalter, who was his first, at least,
• 1:06:55
  known victim when he was living in Alaska as an enlisted army man.
• 1:07:05
  He did that with his hands, with his bare hands, with his ham,
• 1:07:11
  hammy bare hands. Why was also thinking to a hammer isn't that big, you know?
• 1:07:20
  And his hands are, so it's like, I don't know, it just seems so like super intimate too,
• 1:07:25
  because it's not like something that you're swinging like it. Yeah, the object creates, like,
• 1:07:31
  not just a physical, but sort of like a psychological distance between you and the crime that you're
• 1:07:37
  committing, I would think. Yeah. Yeah. No. That makes sense. It's awful from every potential angle,
• 1:07:47
  you know, from which you can examine it. So that's cool. There's a lot of other source material that I
• 1:07:55
  looked at that talked about other cases, a little bit more in depth that he was potentially involved in.
• 1:08:01
  There was a case that I couldn't find substantiated really in anything that I was finding in terms
• 1:08:09
  of source material. I don't know if they changed the name of the woman that they were referring to,
• 1:08:16
  but I came across a relatively, I think, reputable source where they were referring to a victim that I
• 1:08:24
  was like, I can't find this person by name anywhere else. And it was really bizarre because I was like,
• 1:08:30
  there's no, there's no other source material that seems to like have alternately named her like,
• 1:08:37
  like we saw with Dorcas versus Christine, depending on, you know, the source material and at what
• 1:08:44
  point in time you're reviewing. I don't know. I have no idea where that person came from. It all sounds
• 1:08:52
  very much like Harvey and it sounds like it played a very pivotal role in his downfall that I couldn't
• 1:08:58
  find any information about it. Oh, yeah. It was, I mean, there's just so many victims and there's
• 1:09:06
  so many people that he suspected having to have either abducted, sexually assaulted, murdered. I
• 1:09:16
  mean, and again, some of those are unsolved. It's like, okay, well, I don't know. Do we have anything
• 1:09:22
  that we can like test? Do we, do we have anything that we could like, I don't know, run some DNA and
• 1:09:28
  try to, I don't know, like crazy idea I had here, but what if we tried to solve it anyway?
• 1:09:37
  I know, like just to just to know the things are solved. Yeah. I mean,
• 1:09:42
  because here's a crazy thought, then it's like, we know that he did it and, you know, I feel like
• 1:09:50
  probably somewhere out there, those people, you know, maybe they've remained unidentified
• 1:09:58
  officially for all these years, but more than likely that person has family, right? And they
• 1:10:04
  probably would like to know what happened. Maybe we do it, you know, for that. And maybe if it wasn't him,
• 1:10:12
  I don't know, maybe then we keep looking. We just get wild and we figure out like, was it maybe
• 1:10:18
  somebody else? Maybe they were younger than Harvey was at the time of the crime and maybe there's
• 1:10:23
  somebody else who's still living freely that like totally got away with murder and everybody thinks
• 1:10:29
  Harvey did it. I don't know, Tommy Crazy, I just think we should solve the crimes. Just solve all the
• 1:10:35
  crimes. Just solve them. You know, I understand that there are active ones. I'm not saying that it's
• 1:10:42
  easy, but I do think, you know, there's, there's a lot of cases I think that we're kind of sitting on
• 1:10:48
  and it definitely has to do with budget. I propose, I have an idea. Get it. Let the podcasters do it.
• 1:10:58
  If no one needs to be convicted of any sort of home DNA, just give us all of the information and
• 1:11:05
  let us kind of solve it for you. Present it to you. You can double check our work, you know.
• 1:11:11
  I think the issue is that a lot of these, it's like it comes down to that if we just took the time,
• 1:11:19
  if we use the resources, if we spent the money, that's probably the most critical piece,
• 1:11:27
  just to run, you know, whatever DNA samples or other forensic evidence with more advanced,
• 1:11:33
  you know, technology all these years later. I think a lot of them could be solved, but
• 1:11:38
  those resources just are so often not available or they're not allocated to that.
• 1:11:46
  Maybe one day there will be no crime left to solve and then we'll just have to focus on all the
• 1:11:53
  last ones. Yeah, you know, just not let Oregon rebound in terms of the backlog of rape kits again.
• 1:12:02
  Yeah. Like just happened because we have a backlog again, apparently. So like, great, great job,
• 1:12:09
  guys. Great job of that. I read that recently and I was like, I'm so angry.
• 1:12:19
  It gives me crazy eyes. Just stop fucking raping people. Yeah. What? Like it's hard?
• 1:12:25
  Literally it shouldn't be that. Yeah, it just don't do it, you know. That's so easy. It's so easy
• 1:12:34
  to just not do the things that suck. I'm in from my perspective for what it's worth.
• 1:12:41
  All right, well, now we've talked about as butt cancer. Should we
• 1:12:47
  introduce some tarot? Let's do some tarot. Tirit!
• 1:12:50
  Okay. Okay, pick one. Oh, interesting. Okay, we drew the sun. We're using our
• 1:13:14
  tarot, Toreal dick. Do you want to know something really weird? Yeah. Obviously.
• 1:13:20
  See the shirt I had on? Oh my gosh. That's so funny. I didn't, I really didn't even notice.
• 1:13:26
  The sun. And I put it on. I was like, oh, what if we got the sun card today?
• 1:13:30
  That's weird. This is not weird. But like totally doesn't have anything to do with your
• 1:13:38
  terrible case. I mean, I guess we'll see. Okay. So our keywords are joy, success,
• 1:13:49
  enlightenment, marriage and vitality. I was associated with obviously the sun, fire.
• 1:13:56
  The numbers one and ten. The sun card features a blazing sun. Sometimes with a face
• 1:14:09
  sun beams radiating out from it. Beneath the sun in the rider weight Smith deck, a smiling nude
• 1:14:17
  child rides a white horse. Some decks show two children with their arms around each other.
• 1:14:23
  Other decks picture a young couple holding hands. The sun rules the zodiac sign Leo, which
• 1:14:31
  astrologers link with child children, pleasure and creativity. All righty.
• 1:14:38
  The sun card represents life itself for the sun gives life to everything on earth.
• 1:14:44
  Interesting. One of the most joyful cards in the tarot, it signifies vitality,
• 1:14:53
  confidence, achievement, attainment and success in all endeavors. Okay.
• 1:15:02
  I feel like maybe I feel like maybe in the interpretation here, we might get a sense of
• 1:15:08
  who this is for or maybe why we're this is a just strange card to draw for this, but I feel like
• 1:15:17
  maybe it's starting to make sense for me a little bit. The sun brightens any negative cards in a
• 1:15:23
  reading no matter where it appears in the spread. Its influence is always beneficial. A new day is
• 1:15:31
  dawning and you're glad to be alive. Whatever your question the answer is positive.
• 1:15:38
  For creative people, the sun can indicate a time of increased inspiration and productivity.
• 1:15:44
  Whatever you undertake at this time is likely to prosper. For the sun is shining on you.
• 1:15:51
  This is a good time to start new projects and expand your horizons. It's your day in the sun.
• 1:15:59
  Just makes me sad because it's like the opposite of yeah. He took every all of those women's sun,
• 1:16:08
  their light, their life away. Yeah. I totally agree. I really does. I feel like the points in each
• 1:16:18
  of the bullets, they don't necessarily feel like they really add anything that gives me greater
• 1:16:29
  perspective on this. I feel like this is for the girls that lived. You know what? That's interesting.
• 1:16:37
  You say that because I was just thinking, well, that's who I was thinking of when I, he didn't even
• 1:16:41
  cross my mind while I was shuffling to be honest with you. Yeah. I was just thinking of all of the women.
• 1:16:47
  So that is interesting though. I do think that's the energy that I mean maybe even unintentionally
• 1:16:54
  that we were kind of putting into the deck. And I'm okay with it. Do we want to try to draw another
• 1:17:01
  one and just see what pops up? Yeah. Do we need to, I feel like I need to touch it again.
• 1:17:06
  Yeah. Because I wasn't thinking of him. Okay. I mean, I don't know that you have to think of him
• 1:17:12
  to be quite honest. Well, I just want, but just to get a little bit of, yeah, I don't know,
• 1:17:18
  something. I'm a little bit torn because I do think that like this is, it's such a positive
• 1:17:24
  reading. And I think that's the takeaway I want that. But it also was kind of like goes back to
• 1:17:30
  the beginning where you're like, well, it does end on, you know, the happiest note that it could
• 1:17:34
  possibly end on like he's dead. So yeah, he's no longer. Honestly, it makes me.
• 1:17:41
  I'm so happy that he lived such a long life. Because a lot of these guys will get caught, especially
• 1:17:50
  when they're already, you know, like he was already in his like late 40s, I think when, you know,
• 1:17:56
  he was put away. And so it's like he could have very easily died a relatively young man.
• 1:18:04
  That's not unusual for people that are incarcerated for their life spans to be
• 1:18:10
  terribly cut short, which I say terribly because I think in a lot of instances, people,
• 1:18:16
  if they are wrongfully convicted or they're put away for decades, for something stupid, like,
• 1:18:22
  you know, smoking a little bit of weed over, you know, I just, that kind of stuff pisses me off
• 1:18:31
  because the treatment that people receive in prison is not ideal. It's not the ideal environment
• 1:18:38
  for you to grow and live a long and healthy life. But for this particular person, that's...
• 1:18:44
  He's a fucking weed. He grew through the cracks. Okay, I hope he didn't get to see a lot of the sun,
• 1:18:52
  you know? I'm sure he didn't. I mean, he couldn't have. Okay.
• 1:18:57
  Having that conversation, I think set us on the right path for something more in line with Harvey,
• 1:19:05
  that. That'll do it. Okay, so we drew the King of Cups in reverse. Our keywords would normally be
• 1:19:13
  wisdom, understanding, focus, balance, and peacefulness in the upright position. However, when you
• 1:19:21
  draw it in the reverse, our keywords are coldness, volatile, immature, overreaction, and manipulative,
• 1:19:31
  which there are so many aspects of this case that like, I can't even, I can't even really delve into
• 1:19:39
  how relevant some of these are because they're just not things that I chose to dive deep on.
• 1:19:45
  Really wanted to make sure we had plenty of time to discuss his ass cancer at the end. Yeah.
• 1:19:50
  As one does. As one does. As one does. Overreaction reminds me of like overkill. Yeah. Oh god, yeah.
• 1:20:01
  Oh, okay. So numerology, we've got numbers 14 and 5. It's, this card is also associated with the
• 1:20:11
  astrological signs, Pisces, Scorpio, and Cancer. I am almost positive that he was a Taurus.
• 1:20:20
  May 18. Taurus is for me. They're my favorite. Yeah, that is a Taurus. Yeah. Hey, listen,
• 1:20:29
  you know what? My grandpa was a Taurus and he grew up kind of in the same era as this guy. So
• 1:20:36
  I don't love it either, but I mean, it kind of made sense. He never, never stopped, not even jail,
• 1:20:41
  because it's awesome. Never stopped, never stopped, very headstrong. Yeah, yeah, really.
• 1:20:46
  This card is also associated with water, which is interesting because there aren't really any
• 1:20:54
  water elements associated with this case that I can think of, really.
• 1:20:59
  Because cups and like water is like emotion. Yeah. Lots of emotions. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
• 1:21:05
  Okay, so this is interesting. We do have slightly different keywords in the big book. Oh, okay.
• 1:21:13
  These are obviously more intended toward the upright position, but I think it's interesting.
• 1:21:21
  Benevolence, culture, creativity, emotional warmth and protection. And we drew this.
• 1:21:29
  And all things opposite kind of. Did they not give keywords for the reverse interpretation?
• 1:21:35
  Not necessarily. No. I don't know why you always thought that they did. Yeah, the reverse interpretation
• 1:21:41
  definitely does. It touches on how the placement of the card, how the meaning is different,
• 1:21:48
  but it doesn't specifically identify different keywords. Because the keywords and theory are
• 1:21:55
  the same. It's just sort of like the other side of a coin in a way. Well, not necessarily. Yeah,
• 1:22:00
  I mean, that's true. Not necessarily directly opposite. In this case, it works for me that it's
• 1:22:05
  like this. This is also judging from the keywords on the tutorial, territorial. Yeah.
• 1:22:14
  Okay, so this is interesting. In many decks, this king sits on a throne and wears rich garments and
• 1:22:22
  a crown. He usually appears as a benevolent authority, a father figure, which I think it goes without
• 1:22:34
  saying that Harvey didn't have a really healthy modeling of what that might look like. He was a
• 1:22:41
  father figure, not a good one. Yeah. No. I mean, he didn't have that behavior model to him either.
• 1:22:46
  So it says who rules kindly and fairly, which is definitely also again, didn't go into the childhood
• 1:22:55
  nearly enough to elaborate how accurate that is. In a reading, the king of cops may signify
• 1:23:04
  an actual person. When he does, it's generally a mature man who's cultured and knowledgeable in the arts.
• 1:23:11
  Which could not be further from the case. He studied criminal psychology. Yeah, he's very cultured
• 1:23:19
  and artistic. It's funny because as soon as I said it, I was like, well, he did go in person. Yeah.
• 1:23:25
  Okay. This is when we really, really, really get, we get to the crux of Harvey, I think.
• 1:23:33
  Is this where we get to the meat and meaty mitts of the situation? The ham of it all. Yeah.
• 1:23:38
  The reversed king shows emotional turmoil, insecurity and defensiveness.
• 1:23:46
  In security, I like the whole raping people with foreign objects just screams, yeah, in security.
• 1:23:56
  It's a power move. It's just everything that's big.
• 1:23:59
  If he represents a real person, he can be manipulative, emotionally controlling and vindictive.
• 1:24:12
  And boy, oh boy. Yikes. Check, check, check.
• 1:24:18
  This card suggests dissatisfaction and frustration.
• 1:24:27
  Perhaps because you aren't using your creativity. Because you could have used your creativity
• 1:24:33
  to take a bad situation at so many different points in your life and figure out a way to creatively
• 1:24:40
  solve problems and make your life better. But you didn't. But you didn't. But how much of that was
• 1:24:48
  like his choice and like his mental illness, you know? Like if he had had maybe support for his
• 1:24:55
  mental illness, he was not entirely without support really. It was so long ago though, like they
• 1:25:03
  don't have like the medications that they do now and the things are very different. I do think
• 1:25:08
  that there's a lot of very clear indication that there are absolutely just like horrific choices
• 1:25:16
  being made, horrendous decision making. And that is kind of the crux of like, you know, he's just
• 1:25:24
  the recidivism alone just constantly being incarcerated in the parole violations and all of that. It's
• 1:25:32
  just, I mean, come on, that's a choice. That's a choice. But God was telling him to kill people.
• 1:25:38
  Right. You know, so that's, I mean, is that obviously I'm not excusing him.
• 1:25:42
  Can you say, I'm just, no, it's no, it's part of the story though. Like it is.
• 1:25:47
  If things had been different, if there was better medication, I just wonder like what,
• 1:25:51
  yeah, but what have been different? I don't know how they would medicate for something like a
• 1:25:56
  severe anti social personality disorder. I think he had to have had like schizophrenia or something.
• 1:26:03
  If he's hearing God tell him to kill people. I just, I think that a lot of my resources kind of
• 1:26:10
  indicate like that was just something that, I think most people just believe that something he said.
• 1:26:17
  I don't think that that was, I don't think that was real. I don't think that was real. Who knows?
• 1:26:24
  Who knows? I mean, he did mention more than once, you know, how God told him things and said,
• 1:26:29
  do this, do untrue God and just like screams gets a franning at me. Like people in your head
• 1:26:37
  telling you to do things. I mean, and that's fair. I can see how you, yeah.
• 1:26:40
  But also he studied criminal psychology. So what they're just making it up, who knows?
• 1:26:44
  I, you know, and that's the thing is like I struggle with like, okay, how much of this is real?
• 1:26:49
  Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. Nobody knows. And you know what? We,
• 1:26:55
  fortunately, we don't ever have to find out really. Okay. Oh shit. Okay. Okay. Terrows here to
• 1:27:06
  back me up in a reading about money, the reverse king can show losses resulting from decisions made
• 1:27:14
  emotionally rather than rationally. Just hello. Not a lot of rational thought there.
• 1:27:20
  Sometimes it indicates laziness, lack of direction or an indulgent nature that lands you in debt.
• 1:27:28
  Like indulgent. Indulgent. Yeah. If the reading is about your job, this card suggests
• 1:27:37
  territorialism and power struggles, which is yeah. If I, if I can't have you, nobody can.
• 1:27:47
  That's yeah, that's kind of immediately where my head goes. Okay. You may fear losing ground and
• 1:27:54
  try to control others. Absolutely. Secrecy, duplicity and manipulation may exist in your workplace
• 1:28:02
  or just like wherever you go. It's so interesting. You said he afraid of losing ground. Is that
• 1:28:08
  why he was speeding constantly? I mean, that could be. And ironically, then he left tire tracks.
• 1:28:15
  Yeah. So grand. He did lose ground. He lost like little bits of some and they were in that he's
• 1:28:23
  neat little lines that represented his specific vehicle. In a question about love, the reverse king
• 1:28:31
  can mean fear of expressing love and caring. Jealousy, defensiveness and or emotional outbursts
• 1:28:39
  may cause problems. Perhaps you feel insecure in a partnership. Wow. Just insecure man all around.
• 1:28:51
  Yeah. A lot of insol energy. Yeah. I mean, let's face it, a lot of a lot of serial killers really do
• 1:29:00
  represent like this. It's a it's a real it's a real strong insol vibe in that crowd. Yeah.
• 1:29:07
  Yucky. Yeah. Well, thanks for telling us about another one. Appreciate you. You're so welcome.
• 1:29:16
  I'm really excited to share with you guys another case. And it's interesting because there are
• 1:29:22
  sort of some parallels, you know, mainly geographically and some things like that. But yeah, I'm
• 1:29:31
  California. California doesn't specifically make another appearance. Washing this. Washing
• 1:29:38
  tin. Yeah. In a way. Yeah. Minnesota. Not Minnesota, but the Midwest. I'm just guessing all the places
• 1:29:47
  you talked about today. Name them off one by one. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, the big one would be,
• 1:29:54
  you know what? No, I'm not going to say it. No, don't say it. I'm not going to say it. I'm not going to say it.
• 1:29:59
  Have the creepy ass day. We'll see you next Tuesday.
• 1:30:03
  I'll show you on the Patreon because there's a good chance we'll see you sooner. Probably. Yeah.
• 1:30:08
  Usually. Usually do. We see you all all the time.
• 1:30:11
  [Music]
• 1:30:19
  I'm wild. Obviously I thought up until basically today I was doing it completely different case.
• 1:30:28
  And I was like, "Well, you should a bit off more than I can chew with my ham hands."
• 1:30:31
  I can make that joke because clearly I don't have ham hands. They're not,
• 1:30:38
  they're nothing like a, they're, I can barely pick up a ham. They're more like,
• 1:30:43
  piglet hands. Oh, I do have kind of like pink. My hands are always a little pink. I just make
• 1:30:51
  Christianard do some little little, little, little, little piglet. Little piglet hands. pnwhauntsandhomicides.com