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DREAM TELEPATHY: Is it real? · This Jungian Life Podcast

0:02
Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
0:06
Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
0:10
Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
0:14
Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
0:19
Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
0:23
Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
0:28
Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst on Cape Cod.
0:43
Speaker 2: So most of our listeners know that we recently tried
0:47
Speaker 2: something interesting, a little wild, super fun. We did a
0:51
Speaker 2: dream telepathy experiment. We were inspired by the experiments that
0:56
Speaker 2: were conducted at Maimonides Medical Center in the 60s. I
1:03
Speaker 2: think it was the 1960s. And we'll talk more about
1:05
Speaker 2: those experiments later and what they found. You know, as
1:09
Speaker 2: with many psi experiments, the results are intriguing and somewhat inconclusive.
1:17
Speaker 2: But we had some very interesting results to our first experiment.
1:22
Speaker 2: We're going to try this for a few months and
1:25
Speaker 2: see how it goes. It's part of our celebration of
1:29
Speaker 2: the publication of our new book, DreamWise, Unlocking the Meaning
1:32
Speaker 2: of Your Dreams. And if you haven't signed up to
1:36
Speaker 2: participate in the Dream Telepathy Project, you can go to
1:40
Speaker 2: the book website, which is dreamwisebook.com. Click on the menu,
1:47
Speaker 2: find Dream Telepathy and add your name to the mailing list.
1:50
Speaker 2: And then you can participate when we do this next.
1:54
Speaker 2: So I'm going to tell you what we did. Those
1:56
Speaker 2: of you who signed up, got an email letting you
1:59
Speaker 2: know that Joseph was going to be transmitting at certain
2:02
Speaker 2: times on a, on a Sunday. So there were, I
2:06
Speaker 2: think there were three or there were four or five,
2:08
Speaker 2: maybe transition times. And, uh, what we did was we
2:12
Speaker 2: had our wonderful, um, uh, marketing manager, Madeline pick five images.
2:19
Speaker 2: I didn't know what, want to know what they were.
2:20
Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure it was totally clean. So
2:23
Speaker 2: Madeline picked five images, and then she said to Joseph, Joseph,
2:26
Speaker 2: pick a number between one and five. So then she
2:30
Speaker 2: gave him the photograph that corresponded with the number he
2:33
Speaker 2: told her. So he didn't see the other images. He
2:38
Speaker 2: only saw the image that he picked, and then he
2:41
Speaker 2: transmitted at these appointed times. If you participated, you got
2:45
Speaker 2: the email saying when to tune in and gave you
2:47
Speaker 2: some pointers on how to tune in. The next morning,
2:51
Speaker 2: if you were signed up, you got an email saying,
2:54
Speaker 2: report your results, and we're going to share those results,
2:57
Speaker 2: and we're going to share what the image was that
2:59
Speaker 2: Joseph transmitted. Joseph, why don't you take it from here
3:02
Speaker 2: and explain what happened next?
3:04
Speaker 3: So at each of the appointed times, about five minutes before,
3:09
Speaker 3: I would try to put myself in a very kind
3:11
Speaker 3: of open and receptive state, trying to imagine that I
3:15
Speaker 3: was opening myself to being perceived. as a matter of thinking.
3:21
Speaker 3: I would focus on the image, which was a Nova
3:24
Speaker 3: Scotian retriever, which is a kind of a slightly obscure
3:30
Speaker 3: kind of dog. It was just the head of the
3:33
Speaker 3: dog with a kind of very reddish fur with a
3:38
Speaker 3: long white stripe going from the head to the snout
3:42
Speaker 3: and down onto the chest. Long, fuzzy, flappy ears. So
3:48
Speaker 3: I would focus on that image and I would try
3:51
Speaker 3: various things. For instance, I would imagine the image hovering
3:55
Speaker 3: in the air in front of me, behind me, to
3:58
Speaker 3: the right of me, left of me, above and below,
4:00
Speaker 3: so that somehow like I was surrounded by this dog image.
4:05
Speaker 3: I would whisper a description of the dog. I would
4:10
Speaker 3: imagine what a dog smelled like. I'd imagine what it
4:14
Speaker 3: feels like to have a dog jump on you and
4:16
Speaker 3: lick your face, trying to evoke an experience of this creature.
4:20
Speaker 3: And I would do that for about five minutes. Then
4:23
Speaker 3: I would kind of shut it down and repeated that
4:27
Speaker 3: five times, I think, over the course of the day.
4:29
Speaker 3: People submitted their dreams, but also I had given people
4:33
Speaker 3: a set of various exercises to try to tune in
4:38
Speaker 3: and to try to tune in while I was holding
4:42
Speaker 3: the image. So we got a few people writing in
4:45
Speaker 3: saying what their kind of psychic impressions were even during
4:49
Speaker 3: the transmission and then also what happened in their dreams.
4:54
Speaker 3: So there were about 295 dreams that were submitted. 13.29%
5:00
Speaker 3: mentioned some form of a canine. Now, Jung was interested
5:05
Speaker 3: in telepathic phenomena in dreams, but he was also interested
5:10
Speaker 3: in the way that ancillary information could also be communicated.
5:14
Speaker 3: not just the image of the dog, so I'll go
5:16
Speaker 3: through a couple of different percentages. I was curious how
5:20
Speaker 3: many people might just pick up on the color red
5:23
Speaker 3: because I was really captured by the color of the
5:26
Speaker 3: dog's red fur. 39.66% mentioned the color red in the
5:29
Speaker 3: dreams that they submitted. 19.6% mentioned fur of some kind. 32.89%
5:44
Speaker 3: mentioned some form of an animal. Now very small percentages
5:48
Speaker 3: of people, 0.33% mentioned barking. Another 0.33% mentioned feeling licked,
5:58
Speaker 3: which is really funny. Now there was some other ancillary information.
6:04
Speaker 3: The room that I was projecting in was painted in
6:07
Speaker 3: my favorite color, which is a very light, vibrant yellow.
6:12
Speaker 3: some of my favorite colors. So I just was looking
6:15
Speaker 3: through the dreams. 4% of people dreamt of the color yellow.
6:20
Speaker 3: My home is my backyard fronts into a large body
6:24
Speaker 3: of water called the Albemarle Sound. 6.15% of people dreamt
6:30
Speaker 3: of a large body of water. The other thing that
6:33
Speaker 3: I would love to mention, which was just marvelously uncanny,
6:38
Speaker 3: is that somebody had written in and said, um, I
6:42
Speaker 3: dreamt Joseph was a professor at my old university, but
6:46
Speaker 3: where his left eye should have been, there was a
6:48
Speaker 3: huge black circle. It took up more than his eye,
6:51
Speaker 3: some of his cheek too. It wasn't gory, just a
6:54
Speaker 3: void space. I felt kind of creeped out, but mostly
6:58
Speaker 3: eager to learn. And that's very uncanny because I was
7:01
Speaker 3: just diagnosed with a spot of macular degeneration in my
7:05
Speaker 3: left eye. So that is one of these uncanny.
7:09
Speaker 2: Literally is this kind of black circle in your eye.
7:12
Speaker 3: It quite literally is. So I think some of the
7:16
Speaker 3: people tuning into the experiment were picking up on lots
7:20
Speaker 3: of information that was really kind of remarkable. The dreams
7:28
Speaker 3: about canines in general, given that we had five images,
7:33
Speaker 3: I don't think that percentage-wise that was particularly remarkable information.
7:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we also just have some kind of global
7:42
Speaker 2: statistics on that. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so let's see.
7:49
Speaker 2: So altogether, 566 people filled out the response email. And, um,
8:01
Speaker 2: of that, most of you said that none of the, okay.
8:05
Speaker 2: So when you clicked through, what you saw was the
8:09
Speaker 2: five images that, that Madeline had originally picked and the
8:13
Speaker 2: dog was image three. Um, and so we, we can
8:18
Speaker 2: tell you, you know, we, you were asked to sort
8:20
Speaker 2: of check which one appeared in your dream. Most of
8:22
Speaker 2: you said 62% said none of these images appeared in
8:27
Speaker 2: my dream. The second most common response was image four,
8:32
Speaker 2: which was a door. And 79% chose that. Oh, excuse me,
8:38
Speaker 2: 79 people. And that was 13%. And then the third
8:42
Speaker 2: most common response was the dog with 11.1% choosing that
8:47
Speaker 2: was 67 people. So, I mean, the dog was of
8:51
Speaker 2: the five, the second most common one chosen. Of course,
8:55
Speaker 2: as we know, dogs do appear in dreams pretty frequently.
8:58
Speaker 2: So that's not a slam dunk. But Joseph, I think
9:01
Speaker 2: the other stats that you mentioned are intriguing. And then
9:05
Speaker 2: we do have some more kind of hits that we're
9:08
Speaker 2: going to pull out. So some of it may not
9:11
Speaker 2: be so much that lots of people saw it, but
9:14
Speaker 2: the few people who did, like some of them are
9:16
Speaker 2: pretty remarkable. And correspond with what the Maimonides people found,
9:21
Speaker 2: which is that sometimes there are these really striking hits.
9:25
Speaker 2: So we'll talk about kind of direct hits in a minute,
9:28
Speaker 2: but Joseph, I don't know if there's anything else you
9:30
Speaker 2: want to share.
9:30
Speaker 3: I would just like to share just one other uncanny
9:34
Speaker 3: psychic perception. Somebody else writes in, there were also some
9:38
Speaker 3: lovely experiences with the transmission. The morning of the transmission,
9:42
Speaker 3: not at a scheduled time, an image of Joseph appeared
9:46
Speaker 3: and a white paper airplane flew off from his left shoulder.
9:51
Speaker 3: I then had feelings of aviation and white birds. Well,
9:55
Speaker 3: right next to me, I have a very large piece
9:58
Speaker 3: of artwork. It's about three and a half feet by
10:02
Speaker 3: three and a half feet. And it's a lucite shadow
10:05
Speaker 3: box and covering the inside are small white origami birds.
10:11
Speaker 3: Very fabulously similar to what the person had dreamed. Mm-hmm.
10:17
Speaker 3: So again, some very personal psychic perceptions that were in
10:22
Speaker 3: fact going on, just not necessarily what I was holding intentionally.
10:27
Speaker 3: And so let's talk about Jung and telepathic dreams because
10:30
Speaker 3: he has some things to say about that.
10:33
Speaker 2: Yes, he does.
10:33
Speaker 4: I think what we are circling around is that telepathic
10:39
Speaker 4: phenomena do occur sometimes. And it's not always exactly specific,
10:47
Speaker 4: but things happen. And of all the dreams that Jung
10:52
Speaker 4: relates in his memoir entitled Memory, Dreams, Reflections, which we
10:58
Speaker 4: always encourage everybody to read, it's a real page-turner. There
11:03
Speaker 4: is a dream that is very specifically telepathic. Let me
11:07
Speaker 4: read what he wrote. One night, I lay awake thinking
11:10
Speaker 4: of the sudden death of a friend whose funeral had
11:13
Speaker 4: taken place the day before. Suddenly, I felt that he
11:17
Speaker 4: was in the room. It seemed to me that he
11:20
Speaker 4: stood at the foot of my bed and was asking
11:23
Speaker 4: me to go with him. I did not have the
11:26
Speaker 4: feeling of an apparition. Rather, it was an inner visual
11:29
Speaker 4: image of him, which I explained to myself as a fantasy.
11:34
Speaker 4: But in all honesty, I had to ask myself, do
11:37
Speaker 4: I have any proof that this is a fantasy? Suppose
11:40
Speaker 4: it is not a fantasy. Suppose my friend is really
11:43
Speaker 4: here and I decided he was only a fantasy. Would
11:47
Speaker 4: that not be abominable of me? Yet I had equally
11:51
Speaker 4: little proof that he stood before me as an apparition.
11:54
Speaker 4: Then I said to myself, proof is neither here nor there.
11:58
Speaker 4: Instead of explaining him away as a fantasy, I just
12:01
Speaker 4: might as well give him the benefit of the doubt.
12:03
Speaker 4: and for experiment's sake, credit him with reality. The moment
12:09
Speaker 4: I had that thought, he went to the door and
12:11
Speaker 4: beckoned me to follow him. So I was going to
12:14
Speaker 4: have to play along with him. That was something I
12:17
Speaker 4: hadn't bargained for. I had to repeat my argument to
12:21
Speaker 4: myself once more, and only then did I follow him
12:25
Speaker 4: in my imagination. He led me out of the house,
12:28
Speaker 4: into the garden, out to the road, and finally to
12:31
Speaker 4: his house. In reality, it was several hundred yards away
12:34
Speaker 4: from mine. I went in, and he conducted me into
12:38
Speaker 4: his study. He climbed on a stool and showed me
12:42
Speaker 4: around the second of five books with red bindings, which
12:46
Speaker 4: stood on the second shelf from the top. Then the
12:49
Speaker 4: vision broke off. I was not acquainted with his library
12:53
Speaker 4: and did not know what books he owned. Certainly, I
12:57
Speaker 4: could never have made out from below the titles of
13:00
Speaker 4: the books he had pointed out to me on the
13:02
Speaker 4: second shelf from the top. This experience seemed to me
13:05
Speaker 4: so curious that the next morning I went to his
13:08
Speaker 4: widow and asked whether I could look up something in
13:12
Speaker 4: my friend's library. Sure enough, there was a stool standing
13:16
Speaker 4: under the bookcase I had seen in my vision, and
13:19
Speaker 4: even before I came closer, I could see the five
13:22
Speaker 4: books with red bindings. I stepped up on the stool
13:26
Speaker 4: so as to be able to read the titles. They
13:29
Speaker 4: were translations of the novels of Emil Zola. The title
13:33
Speaker 4: of the second volume read, Legacy of the Dead. The
13:38
Speaker 4: contents seemed to me of no interest. Only the title
13:42
Speaker 4: was extremely significant in connection with this experience. So I
13:48
Speaker 4: stated it was a dream, but it was a vision. Nevertheless,
13:52
Speaker 4: there is something that is really worth paying attention to,
13:56
Speaker 4: and the data, of Jung's experience is unequivocal. And I
14:03
Speaker 4: think I like especially the argument that he had with himself.
14:08
Speaker 4: And don't we do this all the time with intuitions, synchronicities,
14:14
Speaker 4: dreams that we sort of say, oh my God, well,
14:18
Speaker 4: but it was only a dream or it was only
14:20
Speaker 4: a little intuition instead of doing what Jung did, which
14:24
Speaker 4: is to say, what if there's meaning there?
14:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I love that, you know, because
14:30
Speaker 2: he said, I don't have any proof it's a fantasy.
14:32
Speaker 2: I don't have any proof it's an apparition. And, you know,
14:37
Speaker 2: he's not just, you know, totally gullible. He doesn't just believe.
14:43
Speaker 2: He kind of applies reason. He says, well, there's no
14:46
Speaker 2: proof of this, and there's no proof of this. What
14:48
Speaker 2: if I just, for the sake of experiment, say, what
14:53
Speaker 2: if this is, you know, which I think it kind
14:54
Speaker 2: of sums up his... his views on things. You know,
14:58
Speaker 2: Jung didn't say or write a lot about telepathic dreams,
15:01
Speaker 2: but we do have an account from the Journal of
15:05
Speaker 2: Charles Baudouin, who wrote this. He said, we were speaking
15:12
Speaker 2: one evening, he's talking about talking with Jung, we were
15:14
Speaker 2: speaking one evening of telepathic dreams, where between persons who
15:19
Speaker 2: are emotionally close a mutual unconscious communication and penetration appears
15:25
Speaker 2: to take place. Jung finally, to sum up his thoughts
15:29
Speaker 2: on the matter, acted them out as follows with a brief,
15:33
Speaker 2: firm gestures. He touched first my forehead, then his own,
15:38
Speaker 2: and thirdly drew a great circle with his hand in
15:42
Speaker 2: the space between us. The three motions underscored the three
15:46
Speaker 2: clauses of this statement. In short, one doesn't dream here,
15:51
Speaker 2: and one doesn't dream here, one dreams there, meaning the
15:58
Speaker 2: space in between us. And there, the hand kept turning
16:03
Speaker 2: like the above-mentioned sling and the idea like the messenger
16:07
Speaker 2: was launched. Yeah, so I love that. We don't dream here,
16:11
Speaker 2: we don't dream there, we dream in the space in
16:14
Speaker 2: between us.
16:14
Speaker 4: Yes, and that is absolutely sort of, analytic truth yes
16:22
Speaker 4: we are always and forever talking about the analytic third
16:27
Speaker 4: of the between it's not just me it's not just
16:31
Speaker 4: you it is the chemistry that is created by two
16:36
Speaker 4: people connecting uh and in uh you know christian art
16:42
Speaker 4: it's very often imaged as the dove the third the
16:46
Speaker 4: third thing the third.
16:48
Speaker 2: Reality arises kind of mysteriously between us. By the way,
16:53
Speaker 2: what I just read is from C.G. Jung speaking, and
16:57
Speaker 2: we'll put that link in the show notes. So I'm
17:00
Speaker 2: thinking about what Jung said, that we dream in between,
17:04
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking about maybe stories that any of us
17:08
Speaker 2: might have of telepathic dreams, perhaps, that we've had. I'll
17:14
Speaker 2: tell you something that is a pretty common phenomenon among
17:17
Speaker 2: psychoanalysts is your, your analysis comes in and tells you your,
17:22
Speaker 2: their dream. And you realize that you had a very
17:25
Speaker 2: similar dream. And of course that happens also oftentimes between
17:28
Speaker 2: married couples. So I know it's happened to me. I
17:32
Speaker 2: can't think of a time, but I know it's happened.
17:34
Speaker 2: It's just not fresh in my memory, but I do
17:37
Speaker 2: have some other stories that I'll share, but what about
17:39
Speaker 2: you guys?
17:40
Speaker 4: I have had a couple of instances of people dreaming telepathically.
17:47
Speaker 4: One time was some number of years ago. I'm going
17:50
Speaker 4: to say a good 20 years ago, probably. And this
17:56
Speaker 4: was a young woman who had an image and she
17:59
Speaker 4: drew it. And she said, I don't know what this is.
18:03
Speaker 4: And in the background, it was sort of orange and
18:06
Speaker 4: it was a mechanical structure with a base and something else.
18:09
Speaker 4: And then It looked like sort of a gantry with
18:13
Speaker 4: a head on it. And we talked about it, and
18:16
Speaker 4: I couldn't get to what this meant or how it
18:20
Speaker 4: related to her life. And the next week, the cover
18:26
Speaker 4: of the New York Times Sunday magazine had a picture
18:32
Speaker 4: of a row of oil pumps with an orange-red background,
18:37
Speaker 4: and it was, almost exactly what she had drawn. Also
18:44
Speaker 4: had a dream, this was probably just sometime last fall,
18:49
Speaker 4: of a grain silo in the Midwest. And there were
18:56
Speaker 4: some other features in this dream, but it was so
18:59
Speaker 4: prominent and so vivid, and I know nothing whatsoever about
19:04
Speaker 4: anything like this at all, except that I knew in
19:08
Speaker 4: the dream that that was exactly what it was, and
19:11
Speaker 4: it stood on legs, and it was a curiosity, really,
19:17
Speaker 4: in my dream of all things, why this? My client
19:22
Speaker 4: came in and had a dream featuring a grain silo,
19:27
Speaker 4: and some of the other features in both her dream
19:30
Speaker 4: and mine. And what I remember most of all was
19:33
Speaker 4: how startled I was that for her as well, it
19:37
Speaker 4: was a surprising image of why did we both dream
19:41
Speaker 4: about a grain silo? Well, if we can think about
19:43
Speaker 4: silos and savings and the biblical story of saving up
19:49
Speaker 4: for a up for seven years in case of a
19:52
Speaker 4: famine and what grain represents and so on. Nevertheless, two
19:58
Speaker 4: very specific images, very specific, that are out of the norm.
20:04
Speaker 2: That's not part of your everyday life.
20:07
Speaker 4: Right, and not part of our experience, lived experience either.
20:12
Speaker 2: Deb, can I ask you, do you remember if the
20:14
Speaker 2: two of you had that dream the same night?
20:17
Speaker 4: Well, we had had the dream, I don't remember, but
20:21
Speaker 4: it was in between weekly sessions. So we had met,
20:26
Speaker 4: and in the week intervening here, we both had a
20:32
Speaker 4: dream with similar and very unlikely experiences.
20:36
Speaker 2: Imagery.
20:37
Speaker 3: Right.
20:37
Speaker 2: It's not like you both dreamed about a dog.
20:39
Speaker 4: Exactly. Right. And neither of us has had any Midwestern
20:44
Speaker 4: or farming experience whatsoever. So, you know, I think what
20:49
Speaker 4: it points to is, you know, Jung, one of Jung's
20:53
Speaker 4: great contributions was the discovery of the collective unconscious, which
21:00
Speaker 4: I often kind of image as like the water table
21:03
Speaker 4: that flows underneath unseen that connects us all and has
21:09
Speaker 4: connected us all for millennia as human beings. It's common
21:14
Speaker 4: to all of us. And that somehow, sometimes in surprising ways,
21:19
Speaker 4: we each draw a bucket of water from the exact
21:24
Speaker 4: same place from this underground supply. And then what the
21:29
Speaker 4: dream telepathy experiment is experimenting with is if there is
21:35
Speaker 4: intention to connect in a certain way around a certain image,
21:41
Speaker 4: can we access it intentionally?
21:45
Speaker 3: Can the ego coach the unconscious or nudge it in
21:49
Speaker 3: a direction, which is the great venture in this kind
21:53
Speaker 3: of Ian McGilchrist's book as well. Can we get the
21:57
Speaker 3: right and left side of the brain cooperating and talking
22:01
Speaker 3: to itself? I think that this strange telepathic connection that
22:08
Speaker 3: we have with each other and with life is part
22:11
Speaker 3: of that right brain mystery. And with our left brain
22:14
Speaker 3: so powerfully developed, often there's this great battle between the
22:20
Speaker 3: two sides, the conscious and the unconscious. And so much
22:24
Speaker 3: of what Jung's work was in Toto is can the
22:29
Speaker 3: conscious and conscious unconscious collaborate, and he called that the
22:33
Speaker 3: transcendent function. And one of many manifestations of that could
22:38
Speaker 3: be a kind of telepathy or precognition or recognition of
22:43
Speaker 3: other facts in the environment that the ego just would
22:47
Speaker 3: not have access to otherwise.
22:49
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love that phrase of, can the ego coach
22:53
Speaker 4: the unconscious? whether we ask for a dream or the
22:58
Speaker 4: dream telepathy project or many other ways. Can we approach it?
23:04
Speaker 3: But let's lean in a little bit to this idea
23:06
Speaker 3: of the collective unconscious. I have just a small quote
23:09
Speaker 3: where Jung addresses this. In cases of telepathy, precognition, and
23:14
Speaker 3: similar inexplicable phenomena, one can very frequently observe an archetypal situation.
23:22
Speaker 3: This may be connected with the collective nature of the
23:25
Speaker 3: archetype or the collective unconscious. Unlike the personal unconscious is
23:31
Speaker 3: one and the same everywhere in all individuals, just as
23:36
Speaker 3: all biological functions and all instincts are the same in
23:40
Speaker 3: members of the same species. So I don't know if
23:44
Speaker 3: you guys have had this happen, but this has been
23:47
Speaker 3: going on just in the last few months. I've had
23:52
Speaker 3: I think five different analisands have the same remarkable dream image.
24:00
Speaker 3: And the dream image is that there is an enormous tree.
24:05
Speaker 3: And as they're looking up through the canopy of the tree,
24:09
Speaker 3: they notice that the branches have grown into some form
24:13
Speaker 3: of a cylinder or a spiral. And as they look
24:17
Speaker 3: up through the spiral, they're able to see into the cosmos.
24:22
Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
24:23
Speaker 3: How often does that happen? And literally, that same image
24:27
Speaker 3: in different contexts has shown up in five different clients.
24:31
Speaker 2: That's amazing.
24:32
Speaker 3: I don't know fully how to interpret that as a
24:35
Speaker 3: collective phenomena, but that's caught my attention.
24:40
Speaker 2: I bet.
24:42
Speaker 4: And that really taps into the concept of synchronicity, that
24:48
Speaker 4: meaningful coincidences. wait a minute, five different people with very
24:55
Speaker 4: similar dream images.
24:59
Speaker 3: That's meaningful to me.
25:02
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think it's really startling. It was
25:07
Speaker 4: more than just coincidence. And that's the hallmark of synchronicity
25:13
Speaker 4: is that, oh, my God, feeling of this means something.
25:19
Speaker 4: And that there is a field below consciousness where things
25:24
Speaker 4: are connected mysteriously.
25:27
Speaker 2: So thinking of that experience, Joseph, and then your experience, Deb,
25:32
Speaker 2: it makes me think, we talked about the collective unconscious,
25:35
Speaker 2: but it also makes me think of the diagram that, Deb,
25:40
Speaker 2: you always like to say it looks like the Scottish flag, right?
25:42
Speaker 2: So if you picture, right, if you picture like a rectangle,
25:46
Speaker 2: then with.
25:49
Speaker 2: Lines going through the two corners so that it crosses
25:52
Speaker 2: in the middle. And the top line is conscious to conscious, right?
25:57
Speaker 2: And this is how we think about our work as analysts, right?
25:59
Speaker 2: So we're sitting in the room with someone, there's a
26:01
Speaker 2: conscious to conscious connection, right? Hopefully, the line on the
26:06
Speaker 2: side is my conscious and my unconscious are connected and
26:09
Speaker 2: talking to one another, and so is my patients. But
26:13
Speaker 2: then it might be that consciously, I'm picking up something
26:17
Speaker 2: that's in her unconscious, she might be doing the same
26:20
Speaker 2: with me. And then there's the mysterious bottom line, that
26:25
Speaker 2: unconscious to unconscious connection. That's where it feels like we're
26:29
Speaker 2: mysteriously finishing each other's sentences. In the, you know, image
26:34
Speaker 2: of alchemy, it might be the left hand handshake. It's
26:37
Speaker 2: like we're connected in such a deep way. And it's
26:41
Speaker 2: not conscious. And I think that can happen in an
26:45
Speaker 2: analytic relationship like you're describing, both of you. I'll tell
26:51
Speaker 2: you a remarkable story about a telepathic dream that was
26:56
Speaker 2: between two lovers. So I was working in the former Yugoslavia,
27:03
Speaker 2: and we had a terrible tragedy. A young woman, she
27:08
Speaker 2: was a British national, And she was working for us
27:12
Speaker 2: as a truck driver, driving supplies into Bosnia. And she
27:18
Speaker 2: crashed her truck and died. She was in her early 20s.
27:21
Speaker 2: And her boyfriend at the time was, I think he
27:26
Speaker 2: was somewhere in Latin America. And he dreamt that he
27:33
Speaker 2: saw her driving a go-kart and that the go-kart crashed.
27:39
Speaker 2: And that she reached into her pocket and pulled out
27:41
Speaker 2: a little bit of money and told him, here, I
27:44
Speaker 2: don't need this anymore, and gave it to him. And
27:47
Speaker 2: if I recall, this was a long time ago now,
27:49
Speaker 2: but if I recall, he would have been having that
27:52
Speaker 2: dream at approximately the time of her death. Because, of course,
27:58
Speaker 2: they were six or seven hours apart or something. So
28:01
Speaker 2: it was so striking. And of course, like not that unusual.
28:05
Speaker 2: So the other story that I have is that I
28:08
Speaker 2: knew someone, we were not particularly close, but he told me,
28:12
Speaker 2: confided in me. I mean, we were sort of acquaintances.
28:15
Speaker 2: He confided in me that he had a dream that
28:17
Speaker 2: I came to him and said, your father has died.
28:20
Speaker 2: And the next morning he got word that his father
28:24
Speaker 2: had passed away. Wow. So we can pick up this
28:28
Speaker 2: information maybe via the unconscious or mysterious or whatever, but
28:32
Speaker 2: it also does come to us while we're dreaming. And
28:37
Speaker 2: I think it's so interesting in our results that we
28:39
Speaker 2: had more like typical telepathic experiences, like the person who
28:45
Speaker 2: saw you, Joseph, when he or she was awake and
28:49
Speaker 2: saw your eye problem, which you had told Deb and
28:52
Speaker 2: I about a couple of weeks ago. But then we
28:54
Speaker 2: did also get some people who had some really remarkable
28:57
Speaker 2: direct hits in the dreams.
28:59
Speaker 4: You know, Jung has a dream that is similar to
29:02
Speaker 4: the two experiences you just related, Lisa, about his mother's death.
29:10
Speaker 4: And he says, the night before her death, I had
29:13
Speaker 4: a frightening dream. I was in a dense, gloomy forest. Fantastic,
29:18
Speaker 4: gigantic boulders lay about. among huge jungle-like trees. It was
29:24
Speaker 4: a heroic, primeval landscape. Suddenly, I heard a piercing whistle
29:30
Speaker 4: that seemed to resound through the whole universe. My knees shook.
29:35
Speaker 4: There were crashings in the underbrush and a gigantic wolfhound
29:39
Speaker 4: with a fear gaping maw burst forth. At the sight
29:43
Speaker 4: of it, the blood froze in my veins. It tore
29:46
Speaker 4: past me and I suddenly knew the wild huntsman had
29:51
Speaker 4: commanded it to carry away a human soul. I awoke
29:56
Speaker 4: in deadly terror and the next morning I received news
29:59
Speaker 4: of my mother's passing. And then he goes on to
30:05
Speaker 4: understand the meaning of the dream and that the wild huntsman,
30:10
Speaker 4: the wearer of the green hat who hunted with the
30:13
Speaker 4: wolves that night, was Wotan, the god of his forefathers,
30:20
Speaker 4: who had gathered my mother to her ancestors. Somehow there
30:25
Speaker 4: is something in us that can know And many people,
30:31
Speaker 4: many people, you know, Joseph, your clients who all dreamed
30:35
Speaker 4: of the similar kind of tree with branches that were spiral-like,
30:41
Speaker 4: we've all had these experiences. And it's data. I mean,
30:46
Speaker 4: this is just plain life experience through the ages, which
30:51
Speaker 4: many people have. It's not that unusual.
30:55
Speaker 3: I was just thinking of how... delightful it is to
31:00
Speaker 3: live in a telepathic universe. To just have that as
31:05
Speaker 3: an idea and the kind of shine that that might
31:10
Speaker 3: put on our day-to-day experiences.
31:12
Speaker 2: Let's dive into the Maimonides experiments a little bit more.
31:16
Speaker 2: And then I'd love for us to talk about some
31:18
Speaker 2: of the dreams that our experimenters experienced. So the Maimonides
31:28
Speaker 2: experiments were the main person who was in charge of
31:32
Speaker 2: the lab was Montague Ullman, who was a famous dream worker.
31:36
Speaker 2: In fact, he invented a very important technique for working
31:40
Speaker 2: with dreams and groups that we actually use in dream school,
31:43
Speaker 2: kind of a version of Montague Ullman's kind of method.
31:49
Speaker 2: And what they would do is they would put volunteers
31:53
Speaker 2: to sleep in the sleep lab and the person would
31:55
Speaker 2: have electrodes and EEG and a REM monitor. And then
32:00
Speaker 2: he or she was awakened at the end of each
32:02
Speaker 2: REM phase by one of the experimenters and asked to
32:05
Speaker 2: report the dreams. So meanwhile, there would be an agent
32:11
Speaker 2: who would open a sealed envelope. Our version of that
32:14
Speaker 2: was Madeline emailed Joseph the photograph. extracted the art print
32:19
Speaker 2: within and attempted to telepathically influence the percipient's dream with
32:23
Speaker 2: the imagery it contained. I'm reading off a wonderful website
32:28
Speaker 2: that we can share the link to. So what they
32:31
Speaker 2: found was, you know, they had some way of kind
32:35
Speaker 2: of measuring the hits and they did find, you know,
32:40
Speaker 2: statistically significant hits. Although I will say that efforts to
32:46
Speaker 2: you know, to replicate these findings have been pretty inconclusive.
32:52
Speaker 2: So this remains pretty speculative. But one of the things
32:57
Speaker 2: I thought was totally fascinating is they wanted to see
33:00
Speaker 2: if it was more effective if they used more transmitters.
33:05
Speaker 2: So they got the audience at a Grateful Dead show
33:08
Speaker 2: to to all focus on images of birds right at
33:12
Speaker 2: midnight while the dead were playing the song, If You
33:16
Speaker 2: Want to Be a Bird. And they had five people
33:19
Speaker 2: within like a hundred mile radius of the show who were,
33:22
Speaker 2: you know, sleeping. And let's see, I think it was
33:25
Speaker 2: two of the five experienced thoughts and images of birds
33:28
Speaker 2: or that were related to birds. So there's a little
33:32
Speaker 2: Grateful Dead trivia for you too. So let me share
33:35
Speaker 2: some of the direct hits from Maimonides and you can
33:38
Speaker 2: see what you think. So one of them one night
33:42
Speaker 2: had the following dream content. I was in a class
33:45
Speaker 2: made up of maybe half a dozen people. It felt
33:47
Speaker 2: like a school. There was one little girl that was
33:50
Speaker 2: trying to dance with me. So the target in this
33:54
Speaker 2: case was the painting École de Danse by Degas, depicting
33:59
Speaker 2: a ballet dance class of several young women. So here's
34:02
Speaker 2: another one. There's something about posts, just posts standing up
34:06
Speaker 2: from the ground and nothing else. There's some kind of
34:08
Speaker 2: feeling of moving. Something about Madison Square Garden and a
34:11
Speaker 2: boxing fight, an angular shape, as if all of these
34:14
Speaker 2: things that I see were in a rectangular framework. There's
34:17
Speaker 2: an angular shape coming down toward the right, the lower right,
34:20
Speaker 2: as if you were seeing a filming that took up
34:22
Speaker 2: a whole block. That angular right-hand corner of the picture
34:25
Speaker 2: is connected with Madison Square boxing fight. I had to
34:29
Speaker 2: go to Madison Square Garden to pick up tickets to
34:31
Speaker 2: a boxing fight, and there were a lot of tough punks,
34:34
Speaker 2: people connected with the fight all around the place. And
34:38
Speaker 2: the target picture was Dempsey and Firpo by George Bellows,
34:43
Speaker 2: which I can tell you because I'm looking at it now.
34:47
Speaker 2: It contains an image of a boxing match. So it's
34:53
Speaker 2: two men inside a boxing ring and the referee and
34:59
Speaker 2: the one boxer has kind of knocked the other guy
35:03
Speaker 2: out into the audience and people are looking up. That's
35:08
Speaker 2: pretty interesting. Boxing came up. So those were some of
35:11
Speaker 2: the direct hits from the Maimonides experiments. So let's look
35:16
Speaker 2: at our experiments and look at some of our direct hits.
35:21
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to read the first one. I'm
35:23
Speaker 2: just going to read number one. I'm playing fetch with
35:26
Speaker 2: a dog, a golden retriever, or a poodle. I'm a
35:30
Speaker 2: little afraid of it. I can see its teeth as
35:32
Speaker 2: I try to get the ball from it, but still
35:34
Speaker 2: I manage to continue to play. I'm encouraging the dog
35:38
Speaker 2: to find the ball. He is listening to me, and
35:40
Speaker 2: I find it cute, even though I'm used to interacting
35:43
Speaker 2: with cats and prefer cats. I'm thinking to myself that
35:47
Speaker 2: it's sweet how this dog is attuned to me and
35:49
Speaker 2: to my signals. At first, I throw the ball in
35:52
Speaker 2: a small room, but I think there isn't enough room
35:55
Speaker 2: for the dog to run, and it's not as fun.
35:58
Speaker 2: Then I throw the ball down the stairs. He runs
36:01
Speaker 2: after it but can't see the ball. There are a
36:04
Speaker 2: lot of people there. I guide the dogs a couple
36:06
Speaker 2: of times, but he gives up and I go get
36:08
Speaker 2: the ball myself.
36:10
Speaker 3: So the fact that the image I was looking at
36:13
Speaker 3: was a breed of golden retriever is so marvelously specific,
36:19
Speaker 3: given the innumerable kinds of dogs that one might be
36:23
Speaker 3: looking at. So that's delightful to see that someone would
36:27
Speaker 3: pick up on something quite that specific. Yep.
36:30
Speaker 4: And not exactly the image that you held in mind,
36:34
Speaker 4: because my idea here is that it filters through each individual.
36:40
Speaker 2: Yeah.
36:42
Speaker 4: Right. It's sort of and then we'll take the shape
36:46
Speaker 4: that that individual's unconscious, personal unconscious might give it.
36:52
Speaker 3: Right. That even if we are receiving correct information from
36:56
Speaker 3: this shared field, it still has to come through the
36:59
Speaker 3: lens of our own unconscious material. None of us are
37:02
Speaker 3: totally clear lenses.
37:05
Speaker 4: Just as it should be. I mean, we know this
37:07
Speaker 4: from things like archetypal images, for example, the mother archetype.
37:13
Speaker 4: We've all had a mother, but what we make of
37:17
Speaker 4: that archetype is filtered through our personal experience of our
37:21
Speaker 4: personal mother and all the other environmental specificities.
37:27
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to read the second one. I'm
37:30
Speaker 2: at the markets that my partner works at in a
37:32
Speaker 2: management role in which he now feels burnt out. Then
37:35
Speaker 2: I'm on a bed with my partner and his old friend,
37:37
Speaker 2: a young man who I am now friends with too,
37:39
Speaker 2: that works at one of the market stalls. Our friend
37:42
Speaker 2: is deeply upset at my partner for his loss of
37:44
Speaker 2: temper at work and his failure to maintain connection with
37:46
Speaker 2: his friends, though in reality, these are things my partner
37:49
Speaker 2: is mostly concerned about. while our friend has only displayed
37:52
Speaker 2: some concern. My partner is repentant and worried about losing
37:56
Speaker 2: this friend. He and I are both crying, and I'm
37:59
Speaker 2: trying to help them find repair. We all lie together
38:02
Speaker 2: for a while, and eventually I ask our friend if
38:04
Speaker 2: he's still seeing the girl he was with the last
38:06
Speaker 2: time we were all at a party together. He replies yes,
38:10
Speaker 2: but that they have their difficulties. Later, I go to leave,
38:13
Speaker 2: I'm alone now, and see him walking this girl out too,
38:16
Speaker 2: ahead of me. We are all leaving what is a
38:18
Speaker 2: stately old mansion with a whimsical garden. After this, I
38:22
Speaker 2: am back in the market setting with my mother, looking
38:25
Speaker 2: around shipping containers of secondhand clothes. I'm excited to find
38:29
Speaker 2: a wedding dress for free and take this with me.
38:31
Speaker 2: I find a container where people are sitting at tables
38:34
Speaker 2: to rest, like a cafe, and I sit next to
38:37
Speaker 2: a man with a big, golden, fluffy dog. It is
38:41
Speaker 2: the same color as the dog in image C, but
38:44
Speaker 2: without white markings and fluffier. more like a Samoyed. It
38:48
Speaker 2: comes to sit on my lap and I feel a
38:50
Speaker 2: notable sensation of benevolence. So you just had this great thought, Deb,
38:55
Speaker 2: that it sort of filters through. Well, I mean, this
38:57
Speaker 2: dream is obviously very concerned about relational issues with her
39:02
Speaker 2: partner and probably any number of other things. But at
39:06
Speaker 2: the end, there's a stop. It's sort of like, It's
39:08
Speaker 2: sort of like when you're dreaming and your smoke detector
39:11
Speaker 2: starts to go off in the background and you just
39:13
Speaker 2: kind of build it into your dream. There's this like screech.
39:18
Speaker 2: So I thought that was neat.
39:19
Speaker 3: What I found myself thinking about as you were reading
39:22
Speaker 3: that is, you know, our own unconscious mind is invested
39:27
Speaker 3: in our well-being. And so it's... i imagine is censoring
39:33
Speaker 3: lots of information that it could bring in and deciding
39:37
Speaker 3: based on mysterious criteria what it will give to us
39:42
Speaker 3: so one of the things that i'm imagining is inviting
39:45
Speaker 3: people to tune into my mind or anybody else's because
39:49
Speaker 3: the ego is curious, is kind of different from the
39:53
Speaker 3: unconscious having its own discerning process of what's important and why.
39:59
Speaker 2: Totally, yeah.
40:01
Speaker 3: And this goes, by the way, we hadn't thought about
40:04
Speaker 3: it before, but Lisa, you and I, I'm just letting
40:07
Speaker 3: people know, of course you know it, when you and
40:10
Speaker 3: I were invited to participate in that Russian documentary, We
40:14
Speaker 3: are planning to do a screening, by the way, just
40:16
Speaker 3: letting people know. Lisa and I were invited to comment
40:21
Speaker 3: on dreams that were submitted by a group of Russian
40:26
Speaker 3: artists that seemed to have predicted the onset of the
40:32
Speaker 3: war between Russia and Ukraine. Lisa and I were working
40:38
Speaker 3: with them as part of that telepathic or precognitive possibility.
40:45
Speaker 3: And they were very uncanny and very intense. I believe
40:49
Speaker 3: they've also done some surveys. I think the New York
40:52
Speaker 3: Times may have done this. How many people had dreams
40:56
Speaker 3: of collisions between jets and objects the night before 9-11
41:00
Speaker 3: had happened? And that was, again, very impressive and heartbreaking
41:07
Speaker 3: as well. So I think there is just a tremendous
41:12
Speaker 3: interest there. in this phenomena and lots of evidence.
41:20
Speaker 2: So here's another interesting, it's not a dream, but it
41:24
Speaker 2: maybe is evidence possibly of telepathy. So someone said, I
41:28
Speaker 2: didn't dream the night after the transmission. However, when I
41:31
Speaker 2: was concentrating on Joseph beforehand at the time of the transmission,
41:35
Speaker 2: I did think of a dog and remembered one podcast
41:38
Speaker 2: where he growled like a dog in relation to the
41:40
Speaker 2: dog archetype and being suspicious of the used car salesman.
41:44
Speaker 2: So you got your growl on there, Joseph.
41:46
Speaker 3: I do.
41:48
Speaker 2: And then there's this one, which is pretty interesting. I'm
41:52
Speaker 2: on a beach with a few people unknown to me.
41:55
Speaker 2: We are surrounded by an adorable pack of dogs. They
41:58
Speaker 2: seem to all be from the same litter, though they
42:01
Speaker 2: are different ages, mostly puppies and a few young adult dogs.
42:05
Speaker 2: I'm watching their behavior, trying to decide which one I
42:08
Speaker 2: would love to have with me. I notice a puppy
42:12
Speaker 2: underneath other puppies with a white mark down its face
42:16
Speaker 2: and an older one walking around licking its face and
42:19
Speaker 2: others tending to the pack. I feel drawn to both
42:22
Speaker 2: the puppy and the younger dog.
42:25
Speaker 4: Wow, that's pretty specific to what you were transmitting, Joseph.
42:31
Speaker 3: Marvelously specific and fascinating. How unlikely that somebody would just
42:37
Speaker 3: pull that out of nowhere, such a specific marking.
42:40
Speaker 4: Exactly.
42:41
Speaker 2: And there are lots of dreams like the following. I
42:45
Speaker 2: was caring for several dogs in my dream. They were
42:47
Speaker 2: unfortunately using the indoor space as a restroom.
42:52
Speaker 3: As happens.
42:53
Speaker 4: Yes, and then there's that.
42:54
Speaker 2: Exactly. It was a snippet of a dream. It did
42:57
Speaker 2: not have a storyline. A dog barked as if trying
43:00
Speaker 2: to get my attention. I remember the barking of the
43:03
Speaker 2: dog more than the visual of the dog. The dog
43:06
Speaker 2: was very similar to the picture, but without the white.
43:09
Speaker 2: But honestly, I don't know if I'm conflating the image
43:12
Speaker 2: above with my memory of the dog in the dream.
43:14
Speaker 2: It was definitely the barking that got my attention and
43:17
Speaker 2: what I remembered most when I woke up. So it's
43:19
Speaker 2: interesting that the barking was part of your transmission, Joseph.
43:22
Speaker 3: Yes.
43:23
Speaker 2: And then someone else had an image of a very
43:27
Speaker 2: orange tiger with white stripes.
43:28
Speaker 3: Yes.
43:29
Speaker 2: Which, you know, again, is kind of close to the image.
43:33
Speaker 2: Another person said, when I was tuning in to Joseph's transmission,
43:37
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that got something while tuning in,
43:41
Speaker 2: but maybe didn't dream. I saw a fox that looked
43:44
Speaker 2: quite a lot like the dog. Let's see. Someone saw
43:48
Speaker 2: a very enthusiastic, friendly puppy, and there's lots of dog poop.
43:54
Speaker 3: Undoubtedly my association with owning a dog.
43:57
Speaker 2: Let's see, this person, again, had a sort of telepathic
44:02
Speaker 2: experience during the transmission. I saw an image of Joseph's
44:07
Speaker 2: forehead during the transmission. Here's what I wrote in my
44:10
Speaker 2: journal immediately afterward. Closest guess, a dog's head and shoulders,
44:15
Speaker 2: three-quarter view, looking over my right shoulder, quarter turned to
44:19
Speaker 2: his left or her right, big dog, at first cartoon-like,
44:23
Speaker 2: later more like a portrait of a regal-looking dog. So,
44:27
Speaker 2: Very precise, like that image.
44:29
Speaker 3: Yes, and for those, we'll probably put a picture of
44:32
Speaker 3: the dog in the thumbnail, but it was just the
44:37
Speaker 3: head and a little bit lower than the neck. It
44:40
Speaker 3: wasn't the full dog, and it was in a three-quarter view. Yeah.
44:43
Speaker 3: So the specificity of that is remarkably on target.
44:47
Speaker 2: Here's another dream. It's dream number 21. There was a simple, peaceful, happy, curious, innocent,
44:53
Speaker 2: and sweet, beloved family dog outside. It was walking towards
44:57
Speaker 2: the edge of a wooded area where coyotes have a
45:00
Speaker 2: den nearby. There was nothing scary. Are they friends? I
45:04
Speaker 2: don't know.
45:04
Speaker 3: So that's this whole category of canines being somewhat stimulated.
45:10
Speaker 2: We've got foxes and coyotes.
45:14
Speaker 4: But you know what I'm aware of here is that
45:18
Speaker 4: of all the people who sent in reports of dreams,
45:22
Speaker 4: how many of them feature dogs? We have over 60
45:26
Speaker 4: dreams and dogs are showing up a lot and a
45:32
Speaker 4: lot more than one would ever expect without this kind
45:38
Speaker 4: of what shall we call it, experiment going on of
45:43
Speaker 4: Joseph imaging something and look what has happened.
45:47
Speaker 2: I mean, to be fair, okay, because I do, I
45:51
Speaker 2: sort of want to be like Jung, there's, you know,
45:53
Speaker 2: is there evidence for this? Is there evidence for that?
45:56
Speaker 2: You know, as we said, like dogs do show up
45:58
Speaker 2: in dreams pretty often. And so I forget exactly what
46:02
Speaker 2: was it, 11% of the people checked this image for
46:06
Speaker 2: their dream. And Joseph, you have some different stats too,
46:09
Speaker 2: but You know, that could be explained by the fact
46:12
Speaker 2: that dogs show up in dreams pretty often. You know,
46:15
Speaker 2: it just so happened that the image that was randomly
46:19
Speaker 2: picked was a dog. So, you know, maybe it's different
46:23
Speaker 2: next month. But I just want to be careful about
46:26
Speaker 2: making any strong claims here. I think it's really interesting.
46:29
Speaker 2: I think it's really intriguing. I'm fascinated. But like my
46:34
Speaker 2: left brain science hat is just like, yeah, okay, maybe, maybe.
46:39
Speaker 3: This is where Kelly could be so helpful with his
46:42
Speaker 3: enormous dream database. What percentage of dreams might we say.
46:47
Speaker 2: Is future dogs? Like what's the control?
46:50
Speaker 3: What's the control exactly. So then we could say.
46:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, Kelly Bulkley is a renowned dream researcher and, and
46:58
Speaker 2: just a fabulous person too, by the way. And he,
47:01
Speaker 2: he was a guest on the podcast. He's written so
47:04
Speaker 2: many fabulous books about dreams. Um, And he's a real
47:12
Speaker 2: dream explorer. He's an Oneironaut. But he's also a scientist
47:17
Speaker 2: and he's got the chops to kind of look at
47:20
Speaker 2: dreams statistically, which is something that is way above my
47:23
Speaker 2: pay grade. So I don't know that he's researched dreams telepathically,
47:29
Speaker 2: but he is very... I actually did speak with him
47:32
Speaker 2: about this project before we did it because I wanted
47:34
Speaker 2: to get his input. And he's very familiar with those
47:38
Speaker 2: Maimonides experiments. So here's another one. I'm going down. This
47:43
Speaker 2: is a dream. I'm going down in a small cable
47:45
Speaker 2: car towards a lower part of the town. It is
47:48
Speaker 2: an old town with old buildings dating to the Middle Ages.
47:52
Speaker 2: The city is built on a hill. I'm too slow
47:55
Speaker 2: to get off the car, so I have to make
47:57
Speaker 2: one more trip. I get out at the lower part
47:59
Speaker 2: of the city, feeling a bit resigned and ashamed that
48:02
Speaker 2: I was so slow. It looks like an open marketplace.
48:07
Speaker 2: That's interesting because there was another dream that had that
48:09
Speaker 2: kind of marketplace in it. There are plenty of small
48:12
Speaker 2: shops around with flowers and pastries. There are three huge
48:16
Speaker 2: loaves of bread lying on the grass. They look like
48:20
Speaker 2: real dogs with black noses, ears, and colorful stripes on
48:24
Speaker 2: their fur. What a great idea to make bread like
48:27
Speaker 2: dogs and to put them on the earth so they
48:30
Speaker 2: look even more real. A dog is passing by and
48:33
Speaker 2: wants to meet his companions. He doesn't know it's bred.
48:37
Speaker 2: I must take a photo of the four of them.
48:40
Speaker 2: Before I open my camera, the real dog is gone
48:42
Speaker 2: and the bred dogs have transformed into small tigers. They
48:47
Speaker 2: are lying on their backs and look sweet, but I
48:49
Speaker 2: know that when they grow up, they will be wild animals.
48:53
Speaker 2: So there we have that kind of orange color and
48:55
Speaker 2: the tiger and these big dogs. So really, really interesting.
49:00
Speaker 3: I also resonate with the dogs made out of bread.
49:03
Speaker 3: There's a way in which, when I was projecting the images,
49:08
Speaker 3: it's like I'm creating an artifact. I'm kneading the dough
49:13
Speaker 3: of my imagination. There weren't real dogs in the room
49:16
Speaker 3: with me. So the representation of dogs as bread, I think,
49:21
Speaker 3: captures the spirit of an imagined object versus a real
49:25
Speaker 3: object in the room with me.
49:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is really interesting. Okay, here's another one. There
49:33
Speaker 2: was a very young, lone, black puppy that I was
49:36
Speaker 2: obliged to adopt and take care of. I'm not a
49:39
Speaker 2: dog person, but it needed me. The dog's mother was
49:42
Speaker 2: brown and white and was anxiously involved as I began
49:45
Speaker 2: to care for the puppy. Whenever I set it down,
49:47
Speaker 2: she would go over to it and nose it to
49:49
Speaker 2: check up on it.
49:50
Speaker 3: Reminds me of several months ago of finding some stray
49:53
Speaker 3: black puppies that I had to take in and find
49:55
Speaker 3: homes for. Wow. Yeah, so a synchronistic piece there.
50:02
Speaker 2: Here's another one. I was a contestant in a reality
50:06
Speaker 2: show and I was early for a meetup with the host.
50:09
Speaker 2: It was actually Jesse, the host from The Bachelor. He
50:13
Speaker 2: had a photo for me, a picture of a dog
50:16
Speaker 2: with a dark orange type of fur. The color came
50:20
Speaker 2: to me so clearly, I remarked to Jesse, although I
50:23
Speaker 2: didn't know what it was I was looking at. Then
50:26
Speaker 2: I got to meet the dog. His name was Provoto.
50:30
Speaker 2: and he had so much of the brightly colored fur
50:33
Speaker 2: that I could barely see his face. He was also shy.
50:37
Speaker 2: His ears were longer than the dog in the image
50:40
Speaker 2: number three, but the color is spot on. That's like
50:44
Speaker 2: a direct hit, right?
50:47
Speaker 3: And I was really focused on that, the odd color
50:49
Speaker 3: of it too, yeah.
50:51
Speaker 4: And what I am aware of as the three of
50:55
Speaker 4: us go through the dream set so many of the
50:58
Speaker 4: participants in this experiment just generously shared, is, isn't this delightful?
51:06
Speaker 4: That this is what dreams can do.
51:09
Speaker 2: Yes.
51:10
Speaker 4: These are experiences. And, you know, that in some sense,
51:15
Speaker 4: trying to make a, quote, logical, unquote, connection between, you know,
51:20
Speaker 4: the image that was transmitted and what a person dreamed,
51:25
Speaker 4: in some sense, in a way, is beside the point.
51:29
Speaker 4: It's like trying to convert music into, I don't know,
51:36
Speaker 4: a logical argument or a lawyerly type of argument. This
51:44
Speaker 4: is what happened. This is what is. And there's joy
51:47
Speaker 4: in it. from participating, from experimenting, you know, just like
51:56
Speaker 4: Jung did in his vision of, well, let me try it.
51:59
Speaker 4: And we try something and we get something back. And
52:05
Speaker 4: the dreams are the dreams and the feeling tone is
52:08
Speaker 4: the feeling tone and the experience is the experience.
52:12
Speaker 3: Dream 45 is also interesting to me. I'm taking an
52:16
Speaker 3: anatomy for artists class. The teacher is demonstrating how to
52:20
Speaker 3: paint an eye. we will be painting her eye, it's
52:24
Speaker 3: a brown eye, et cetera. Coming back to this theme
52:27
Speaker 3: of me being preoccupied with the macular degeneration in my
52:31
Speaker 3: left eye.
52:31
Speaker 2: And one of the.
52:32
Speaker 3: Ways the doctor was talking to me about it is
52:36
Speaker 3: they had taken a photograph, a picture of the inside
52:39
Speaker 3: of my eye and the anatomy of my eye. So
52:42
Speaker 3: this is the other thing is, the task in our
52:46
Speaker 3: experiment was to tune into me through a picture of me,
52:52
Speaker 3: And so it's not a directly selective process. They could
52:57
Speaker 3: come up with any particular information about me. My concern
53:02
Speaker 3: about the health of my eyes is vibrating in my field.
53:06
Speaker 3: So it's, again, really interesting.
53:11
Speaker 2: Just a couple more kind of maybe dog dream hits.
53:15
Speaker 2: I dreamt of my former dog, Lisa. I've never known
53:18
Speaker 2: of a dog named Lisa.
53:20
Speaker 3: Lisa is a I love it when people name their
53:22
Speaker 3: dogs like Betty and Robert.
53:25
Speaker 2: I know, but Lisa?
53:25
Speaker 4: Really?
53:26
Speaker 2: Have you ever known a dog named Joseph?
53:29
Speaker 3: No, but I think it would be kind of really interesting, actually.
53:33
Speaker 2: Well, there we go.
53:33
Speaker 3: Okay.
53:34
Speaker 2: She was a golden retriever and her face looked very
53:37
Speaker 2: similar to one in the image, just a different color.
53:39
Speaker 2: In the dream, I could hardly see her. I just
53:41
Speaker 2: knew it was her. She was running next to me.
53:43
Speaker 2: I was riding on a brown horse with dark brown dots.
53:48
Speaker 2: And here's another one. I had a dream that somehow
53:50
Speaker 2: I could talk to my dog. I was doing tests
53:53
Speaker 2: of intelligence. Like if I say hot, she would say cold,
53:56
Speaker 2: et cetera. Antonyms, remember those?
53:59
Speaker 4: The word association test.
54:02
Speaker 3: The compensatory dog.
54:03
Speaker 2: Right. I felt so proud of her in the dream
54:08
Speaker 2: and also realized that she had been able to understand
54:11
Speaker 2: me this whole time, 12 years. I was eager to
54:13
Speaker 2: show others and have a deeper relationship with her, which
54:16
Speaker 2: is interesting given the theme of like, kind of communication
54:19
Speaker 2: via the unconscious that there's this, maybe there's this way
54:22
Speaker 2: we can communicate that we didn't even really realize. And
54:26
Speaker 2: they just go on and on, all of these wonderful,
54:31
Speaker 2: wonderful dreams. Lots of dogs. I'm sort of skipping over
54:34
Speaker 2: the ones that are just, that are, you know, where
54:38
Speaker 2: it's less specific, but there are many, right? There are
54:41
Speaker 2: many dog dreams. So there were people that identified the
54:46
Speaker 2: dog there were 67 people that identified the dog and
54:51
Speaker 2: there were about, you know, and I said that was
54:53
Speaker 2: about 11%. Okay. So my sister and I were on
54:57
Speaker 2: vacation in the U S we're from Sweden. We're heading
55:00
Speaker 2: toward a bed and breakfast in the countryside. A nice
55:03
Speaker 2: man was driving us there. Suddenly we see smoke from
55:06
Speaker 2: outside the windows. It comes from a forest fire. The
55:09
Speaker 2: man driving seems used to this and takes an old
55:12
Speaker 2: country road to avoid the smoke. A cow is out
55:15
Speaker 2: in the thick smoke, but I think it managed to
55:17
Speaker 2: escape the fire. At the hotel, a woman suggests we
55:20
Speaker 2: adopt a puppy. There is a kennel just next to
55:23
Speaker 2: the hotel, and we go there. There are many different
55:26
Speaker 2: breeds to choose from, but finally I choose a puppy
55:28
Speaker 2: with the same colors as the dog in image three.
55:32
Speaker 2: I then imagine how the puppy will look as an
55:34
Speaker 2: adult dog, and I get an image that resembles that
55:36
Speaker 2: of image three. So again, lots of dog dreams. I
55:41
Speaker 2: sort of went through and picked the... the ones that
55:45
Speaker 2: felt really precise because it mentioned something maybe about the
55:50
Speaker 2: color or the white stripe or whatever. But that was
55:54
Speaker 2: fun and it was interesting. And I think it's worth
55:58
Speaker 2: another go. So we're currently planning on doing this again
56:03
Speaker 2: in probably mid-March. And if you're already signed up, you'll
56:09
Speaker 2: get the emails again. If you're not signed up, Go
56:13
Speaker 2: to dreamwisebook.com and just give us your email and you'll
56:18
Speaker 2: get the emails letting you know when the transmission will
56:23
Speaker 2: be and then you'll get the email the next morning
56:26
Speaker 2: where you can share the results. So thank you for
56:31
Speaker 2: coming with us on this journey.
56:34
Speaker 3: It was really a treat and it was so fun
56:37
Speaker 3: to swim in those waters.
56:39
Speaker 4: Exactly.
56:42
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an episode topic,
56:46
Speaker 2: or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com. If
56:51
Speaker 2: you enjoyed this episode, give us five stars and a
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