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Hell and Gone Murder Line: Mina and David Swan · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

0:08
Speaker 1: School of Humans.
0:12
Speaker 2: On Saturday, September twenty ninth, twenty eighteen, neighbors on a
0:17
Speaker 2: quiet street in a quiet neighborhood in Clearwater, Florida were
0:20
Speaker 2: getting worried. But in this case, the suspicious activity wasn't
0:25
Speaker 2: from anything that was actually going on. It was kind
0:27
Speaker 2: of the opposite. The neighbors were concerned because things were
0:31
Speaker 2: a little bit too quiet.
0:33
Speaker 1: They had their eyes.
0:34
Speaker 2: On a little, one story white house at ten thirty
0:36
Speaker 2: three Flushing Avenue, where eighty eight year old David Swan
0:40
Speaker 2: and his wife, eighty year old Minu Swan lived. They
0:45
Speaker 2: had lived in that home for the past twenty years.
0:48
Speaker 2: Mina had actually lived there for forty years. This was
0:51
Speaker 2: a second marriage for both David and Mina. She had
0:54
Speaker 2: lived there with her first husband until he passed away,
0:56
Speaker 2: and then later made a home there with David, her
0:59
Speaker 2: second husband. According to friends and family, David and Mina
1:03
Speaker 2: were in a very happy marriage. They had had no
1:05
Speaker 2: known enemies, and they had a really regular routine. They
1:10
Speaker 2: always came out to get their newspaper. They had a
1:14
Speaker 2: neighbor across the street named Joel Locke who lived there
1:17
Speaker 2: with his father, John Locke. Now Joel told police that
1:20
Speaker 2: he last saw the Swans on Thursday afternoon at around
1:24
Speaker 2: three pm. Then on Friday they never walked outside to
1:28
Speaker 2: get the paper. Then over the weekend, Joel said he
1:33
Speaker 2: noticed that the Swan's lights were on, but again on Saturday,
1:37
Speaker 2: there was no sign of either David or Mina. So
1:40
Speaker 2: by Saturday he told police he was getting concerned. David
1:49
Speaker 2: and Mina had married later in life, so they never
1:51
Speaker 2: had any children together, but they had seven children between them.
1:55
Speaker 2: Both of them were involved in each other's children's lives.
1:58
Speaker 2: The families were close. Finally, on Saturday, a little before
2:03
Speaker 2: two pm, Joel got in touch with Mina's daughter, Noel Divine.
2:08
Speaker 2: It says in media reports that Noel had a key
2:11
Speaker 2: to the house, but in the end she didn't need
2:13
Speaker 2: to use it because Noel came to the neighborhood she
2:16
Speaker 2: lived nearby, and she and Joel approached David and Mina's house.
2:21
Speaker 2: They went in through the back door and it was unlocked,
2:24
Speaker 2: and what they saw when they walked in that house
2:27
Speaker 2: was horrific. David and Mina were at the kitchen table,
2:30
Speaker 2: slumped over in pools of blood. Forensic testing revealed they
2:34
Speaker 2: had been dead for at least a day, Joel Loppe
2:38
Speaker 2: told WFLA news Channel eight. Quote, Noel could not handle it.
2:43
Speaker 2: She ran out the door and I was with her
2:45
Speaker 2: right behind end quote. David and Mina were shot execution style.
2:51
Speaker 2: They were sitting at the kitchen table. David had been
2:54
Speaker 2: shot once, Mina multiple times. There was nothing stolen and
2:58
Speaker 2: no sign of forest entry.
3:03
Speaker 1: Of course, there.
3:04
Speaker 2: Were a lot of media reports after this case because
3:07
Speaker 2: it was shocking the murder of two elderly people, And
3:11
Speaker 2: what we kept hearing on the news was that this
3:13
Speaker 2: shock the town of Clearwater, which is a place probably
3:16
Speaker 2: best known for having a large presence of Scientology church members.
3:21
Speaker 2: A few early commenters on the case kind of wondered
3:24
Speaker 2: if Scientologists could have had something to do with it.
3:26
Speaker 2: But let me just say right off the bat, there
3:29
Speaker 2: is zero indication that Scientology had anything to do with
3:33
Speaker 2: these murders. So before I get a lot of calls,
3:35
Speaker 2: I just want to say that upfront, all we heard
3:40
Speaker 2: on the news was that David and Mina were this
3:42
Speaker 2: super happy older couple, and the headline has basically been
3:48
Speaker 2: who would want to kill this nice elderly couple who.
3:51
Speaker 1: Had no known enemies? But as hele Gong.
3:55
Speaker 2: Listeners know, I always try to look beyond the headlines,
3:59
Speaker 2: so I've spent a lot of time doing a deep
4:02
Speaker 2: dive into the probate records that followed these deaths. By
4:06
Speaker 2: the way, thank you Pinalis County, Florida, because this county
4:09
Speaker 2: does have a really good open record system.
4:14
Speaker 1: Now.
4:14
Speaker 2: Joel Locke, the neighbor, gave more details to another news organization.
4:19
Speaker 2: He said that when he was in that kitchen, he
4:22
Speaker 2: saw signs that food had been prepared. He said quote
4:26
Speaker 2: she meaning Mina, was face down and he was on
4:29
Speaker 2: his back. She was on one side of the coffee table.
4:32
Speaker 2: He was on the other side. So at least in
4:38
Speaker 2: the beginning, it seems as though they were just hanging
4:42
Speaker 2: out at home about to eat dinner when the killer
4:45
Speaker 2: walked in and shot them. Their obituaries focused on how
4:49
Speaker 2: happy David and Minus Swan were. According to his obituary,
4:53
Speaker 2: after retirement, David had fulfilled a lifelong dream of travel.
4:57
Speaker 2: He and Mina loved to have new adventures. He hiked
5:00
Speaker 2: the Appalachian Trail in two thousand and two, and his
5:03
Speaker 2: trail name was twinkletoes. Hyked part of it with him
5:06
Speaker 2: and her trail name was Artzy because she had been
5:08
Speaker 2: an art teacher. David had a private pilot's license. He
5:12
Speaker 2: and Mina traveled everywhere. They went to Europe, China, Chile, Argentina,
5:17
Speaker 2: the Panama Canal, Australia, New Zealand, the South Pacific. This
5:21
Speaker 2: list goes on and on. But again, even though they
5:25
Speaker 2: appeared to be living this idyllic lifestyle and apparently David
5:28
Speaker 2: had been this very successful CPA who was retired, I
5:32
Speaker 2: wondered what the real story was because now the police
5:36
Speaker 2: have admitted they're pretty much stumped.
5:39
Speaker 1: After these murders.
5:41
Speaker 2: They had no time of death and no suspects, and
5:45
Speaker 2: over three years later, this case is still unsolved.
5:49
Speaker 1: So who could have killed David and Minus one?
5:52
Speaker 2: Could it be someone like a tradesperson, Could it be
5:55
Speaker 2: a serial killer or someone targeting elderly residents, or could
6:00
Speaker 2: it be one of David's former business associates from Chicago,
6:04
Speaker 2: or was it some one a lot closer to home.
6:08
Speaker 2: I'm Catherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line. If
6:13
Speaker 2: you have a case you'd like me and my team
6:15
Speaker 2: to look into, you can reach out to us at
6:17
Speaker 2: our Helen Gone Murder Line at six seven eight seven
6:20
Speaker 2: four four six one four five. That's six seven eight
6:24
Speaker 2: seven four four, six, one four or five. A week
7:03
Speaker 2: after David and Minus Swans were found, Chief Daniel Slaughter
7:07
Speaker 2: at the Clearwater Police Department held a press conference to
7:10
Speaker 2: talk about the murders.
7:12
Speaker 1: This is what he said.
7:13
Speaker 3: What I can share in the investigation is that David
7:16
Speaker 3: Emina we're seen alive on Thursday September twenty seventh in
7:19
Speaker 3: the early afternoon. From the investigation, we are looking closely
7:24
Speaker 3: at a twenty four hour window from Thursday September twenty
7:27
Speaker 3: seventh around three pm to Friday September twenty eighth about.
7:31
Speaker 4: At the same time three pm.
7:33
Speaker 3: Although our investigation is looking closely at that window as
7:35
Speaker 3: a suspected period of time when this offensive, these two
7:38
Speaker 3: murders occurred, the investigators are also looking at deeds outside
7:42
Speaker 3: of that window. I could share that David and Mina
7:45
Speaker 3: were both shot and killed, and has previously reported our
7:48
Speaker 3: homicide victims.
7:50
Speaker 4: The evidence does.
7:51
Speaker 3: Not indicate that the offender, I'm sorry, The evidence does
7:54
Speaker 3: indicate that the offender came with the intent to kill
7:57
Speaker 3: David and Miana. This does not appear to be a
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Speaker 3: random out being vigilant and following simple common crime prevention
8:04
Speaker 3: techniques like locking your old, your car doors, your home doors,
8:07
Speaker 3: your garage doors is always a very crudent thing to
8:09
Speaker 3: do for safety, but we do not believe there is
8:11
Speaker 3: any reason for the rest of the community to be concerned.
8:14
Speaker 3: Clear Water Detectives and Penell's County Sheriff's Office friends especialists
8:17
Speaker 3: spent over forty hours working in the crime scene, documenting
8:21
Speaker 3: the crime scene, processing the crime scene, and collecting trace evidence.
8:25
Speaker 3: The collection trace evidence is very time consuming. Any person
8:28
Speaker 3: that entered the Swan home would leave trace evidence behind,
8:31
Speaker 3: and that would be in the form of pair.
8:33
Speaker 4: Fibers, skin cells, touch, DNA, a variety of different things.
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Speaker 3: That those traceable substances were the very vitally important for
8:41
Speaker 3: our investigation, and so it's very important that we.
8:44
Speaker 4: Collect them in a very methodical manner and in a
8:46
Speaker 4: very appropriate manner.
8:48
Speaker 3: We know that in murder cases there's usually some form
8:50
Speaker 3: of a victim offender relationship. Investigators will therefore speak to
8:54
Speaker 3: anyone that had a relationship with the Swans.
8:56
Speaker 4: Whether it's family, friends, or business dealings.
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Speaker 3: We're going to talk to everyone, and then anyone involved
9:01
Speaker 3: or connected to the family until we get to the
9:03
Speaker 3: bottom of it.
9:07
Speaker 2: So let's break down those statements. First, Chief Slaughter kind
9:12
Speaker 2: of clarified the window of time when David and Mina
9:14
Speaker 2: were killed. The last time the Swans were seen alive
9:18
Speaker 2: that was verifiable was Thursday, September twenty seventh at around
9:21
Speaker 2: three pm. Remember that's when the neighbors saw them come
9:24
Speaker 2: outside and pick up those newspapers. They didn't come out
9:28
Speaker 2: of their house on Friday or Saturday when Noel and
9:31
Speaker 2: Joel went into the house. So this is why investigators
9:35
Speaker 2: were concentrating on the twenty four hour window between Thursday
9:39
Speaker 2: at three pm and Friday at three pm. If the
9:42
Speaker 2: neighbor's reports are true, if the lights were left on
9:46
Speaker 2: all night on Thursday night, Thursday night, in my opinion,
9:49
Speaker 2: becomes the most likely time when they could have been murdered,
9:52
Speaker 2: especially if we believe Joel. If there was food on
9:56
Speaker 2: the counter that looked like they were about to eat dinner,
9:59
Speaker 2: the lights were on and the door was unlocked. Also,
10:03
Speaker 2: the Tampa Bay Times talked to a neighbor, Bob Anderson.
10:06
Speaker 2: Bob said his wife had gone by the Swan house
10:09
Speaker 2: on Friday to drop off some pamphlets and that nobody
10:12
Speaker 2: entered the door. Noel talked to reporters about her experience
10:19
Speaker 2: going into the house. She said, quote, when I heard
10:22
Speaker 2: the papers were building up, I just panicked.
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Speaker 1: End quote.
10:26
Speaker 2: As she drove to her mother's house, she said that
10:29
Speaker 2: she was trying to tell herself there could be a
10:31
Speaker 2: rational explanation, maybe her mom and stepdad went off on
10:34
Speaker 2: a last minute trip. Then once she went into that
10:38
Speaker 2: house and saw those bodies, her world fell apart. She said,
10:43
Speaker 2: quote it was just a moment that I would never
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Speaker 2: wish on anyone.
10:47
Speaker 1: It's my mother, and I couldn't help her. End quote.
10:54
Speaker 2: At the press conference and also later, law enforcements made
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Speaker 2: a point to say this was likely an isolated attack,
11:01
Speaker 2: and they said the community did not need to be worried,
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Speaker 2: which I think is a little bit misleading because what
11:07
Speaker 2: they mean is that this is a person who is
11:10
Speaker 2: targeting this one specifically. It's not some random person out there.
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Speaker 2: But in my opinion, if someone killed a person, whatever
11:18
Speaker 2: their motivation was, and they're still out there, someone could
11:21
Speaker 2: find out about those killings, confront that person, and they
11:25
Speaker 2: could be in danger. So I get what the police
11:27
Speaker 2: are trying to do. Here they don't want the community
11:29
Speaker 2: to panic. But I do feel like, and I hear
11:32
Speaker 2: this statement often about the public not needing to be concerned.
11:35
Speaker 2: I don't think it's always that valid. So let's take
11:42
Speaker 2: a closer look at this couple. We're going to see
11:44
Speaker 2: very soon that there are two different versions of their
11:47
Speaker 2: life story that start to emerge, the official version and
11:51
Speaker 2: what I call kind of the unofficial version.
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Speaker 1: This isn't meant with any kind of disrespect at all.
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Speaker 2: By the way, everyone has secrets, but sometimes if you
12:00
Speaker 2: want to find out who killed someone who wanted them dead,
12:03
Speaker 2: you have to look behind some of these headlines that
12:05
Speaker 2: are just superficial. You have to try and discover some
12:08
Speaker 2: of their secrets. So we know the killing was very
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Speaker 2: personal and that the Swans were targeted. So the question
12:16
Speaker 2: is who could have wanted to kill them and why.
12:22
Speaker 2: David Sidney Swann, Junior, and this is from his obituary,
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Speaker 2: was born on April fifteenth, nineteen thirty. He was raised
12:29
Speaker 2: in Shreveport, Louisiana. He enlisted in the Navy, and after
12:32
Speaker 2: his naval service, he went to work for an accounting
12:34
Speaker 2: firm called Swift and Company in Chicago. He met his
12:38
Speaker 2: first wife, whose name was Eva Sorenson, in Chicago. He
12:42
Speaker 2: graduated from Northwestern University and became a CPA. He later
12:48
Speaker 2: worked at another firm, and he and his wife had
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Speaker 2: four kids, Julia, Janet, Stephen, and a son named David.
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Speaker 2: So David and his first wife raised their family. Then
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Speaker 2: in the early nineteen eighties, they moved to Clearwater, Florida.
13:02
Speaker 2: David set up his own practice doing taxes, and eventually
13:05
Speaker 2: David and his first wife retired there. That's what I
13:10
Speaker 2: saw in the obituary. But there's something in that part
13:13
Speaker 2: of my brain that gets activated when I have insomnia,
13:16
Speaker 2: which is often, so one night I woke up and
13:19
Speaker 2: started looking through court records. It was like two am
13:22
Speaker 2: that night, and I found some court documents that mention
13:25
Speaker 2: a woman connected to David Swan named MacEwan. These court
13:29
Speaker 2: documents said that David was divorced from this woman. But
13:32
Speaker 2: I noticed that this alleged second wife was apparently never
13:37
Speaker 2: mentioned in his obituary. So that just got me wondering
13:40
Speaker 2: why not, why would that not be mentioned. Again, not
13:44
Speaker 2: trying to air any dirty laundry, but in a case
13:47
Speaker 2: where money could be involved, someone clearly had a grudge
13:51
Speaker 2: against this couple. So we need to try to cover
13:53
Speaker 2: all the facts. And these facts are, by the way,
13:55
Speaker 2: in public records if you look deep enough. And also,
13:59
Speaker 2: I feel like with a lot of these media reports,
14:01
Speaker 2: there's this kind of flippant idea that just because these
14:04
Speaker 2: people are elderly, that they're just this sweet little old couple.
14:09
Speaker 1: I don't know.
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Speaker 2: Maybe it's because I watched The Golden Girls a lot,
14:12
Speaker 2: or because I have some very active older Southern women
14:15
Speaker 2: in my family, but I reject the notion that just
14:18
Speaker 2: because someone is older means they don't have drama or
14:21
Speaker 2: conflict or any kind of an inner life, or for
14:24
Speaker 2: that matter, that they're not capable of being criminals. Life
14:28
Speaker 2: is complicated no matter what age you are. So I
14:33
Speaker 2: need to find out more about this woman May and
14:37
Speaker 2: try and figure out what happened between her and David
14:39
Speaker 2: and where she is now. Mina was an art teacher.
14:44
Speaker 2: She taught at a local high school. She was married
14:46
Speaker 2: to her first husband, Harold, for many years. According to
14:50
Speaker 2: Mina's children, mine and Harold were very happy together.
14:53
Speaker 1: They had three.
14:54
Speaker 2: Kids, Noel, John, and William, and they were living in
14:58
Speaker 2: that home in Clearwater until he passed away in the
15:00
Speaker 2: late nineties, David and Mina met in Clearwater. They he
15:05
Speaker 2: started dating and married in nineteen ninety nine. Now, according
15:10
Speaker 2: to Noel in the deposition, David was actually her parents' accountant.
15:15
Speaker 2: He did some accounting work for Mina and her late husband, which,
15:19
Speaker 2: as we will see in a minute, Noel appears to
15:22
Speaker 2: have a big problem with. But let's go back to
15:25
Speaker 2: the murders. Months go by, and then over a year
15:28
Speaker 2: the police have no suspects. But then there's an item
15:32
Speaker 2: in a news.
15:33
Speaker 1: Report about a lawsuit.
15:35
Speaker 2: By the way, David's son, Stephen is the personal representative
15:38
Speaker 2: of David's estate and Mina's daughter Noel is the representative
15:42
Speaker 2: of her mother's estate. It turns out that Noel is
15:45
Speaker 2: suing Stephen and that the lawsuit is all about the
15:49
Speaker 2: estate and money. So we're going to try to follow
15:52
Speaker 2: that money. We need to answer the question of what
16:00
Speaker 2: exactly was going on with David and Minuswan's financial situation.
16:05
Speaker 2: We know that Mana owned her home and that David
16:09
Speaker 2: had been a successful CPA. The police said that they
16:13
Speaker 2: were living in a nice neighborhood and they had some investments,
16:16
Speaker 2: but these were not super wealthy people. But the probate
16:20
Speaker 2: records give us a lot more detail about what was
16:23
Speaker 2: going on behind the scenes with their finances. According to
16:27
Speaker 2: court documents, Mina and David Swan did have a prenup
16:30
Speaker 2: when they got married, and that prenup basically said that
16:33
Speaker 2: they would keep their finances separate, each one would provide
16:38
Speaker 2: for their own biological children. Mina's will also discussed her property,
16:43
Speaker 2: her house, and the will said if she and David
16:45
Speaker 2: stayed married and she died before him, he would have
16:48
Speaker 2: the right to live there for another six months, but
16:51
Speaker 2: basically he would not inherit it everything went to her children.
16:56
Speaker 2: But according to Noel, it wasn't that simple. Now here's
17:01
Speaker 2: where it gets a little bit bizarre. Because Noel is
17:05
Speaker 2: one of the main spokesperson for her mom and the
17:07
Speaker 2: family talked a lot with police. They participated in press conferences,
17:12
Speaker 2: and in the early press conferences, Noel would talk about
17:15
Speaker 2: her mom and David and how they were soulmates. She
17:18
Speaker 2: talked about him in a very endearing way. She said
17:21
Speaker 2: that they loved to garden. She talked about how they
17:24
Speaker 2: would have wine and cheese in the afternoons and they
17:26
Speaker 2: would walk their dog, whose name was Benji, around town,
17:29
Speaker 2: and she said something I remember well. She said they
17:33
Speaker 2: would end up giving their dog a little slice of
17:35
Speaker 2: the cheese, which I completely relate to. So it seemed
17:37
Speaker 2: like she believed they were this great match. But behind
17:41
Speaker 2: the scenes in twenty nineteen, it became clear that Noel
17:46
Speaker 2: was developing a different view of her mom and David's relationship. Now, remember,
17:52
Speaker 2: in the press conference, Chief Slaughter talked about all the
17:55
Speaker 2: evidence that police took from the scene. They talked about
17:57
Speaker 2: DNA testing, But some of the things that law enforcement
18:01
Speaker 2: have said since then have continued to lead me to
18:04
Speaker 2: believe that Dan probably won't be the key to this case. Now,
18:09
Speaker 2: this could be for a couple of reasons. It could
18:11
Speaker 2: be because whoever killed this ones wore gloves and was
18:14
Speaker 2: super careful. That's a possibility. But it's also possible that
18:20
Speaker 2: whoever killed this ones with someone who had been inside
18:22
Speaker 2: the home before, maybe a family member or a friend,
18:25
Speaker 2: someone who would have had a reason for their DNA
18:28
Speaker 2: to be present in there. That's also a possibility I've considered.
18:32
Speaker 2: In a later press conference, Detective Kinnicki, who became the
18:35
Speaker 2: lead investigator on the case, seemed to allude to this.
18:39
Speaker 2: He said, quote some cases are made on DNA or
18:42
Speaker 2: fingerprints or ballistics. I think this is going to come
18:45
Speaker 2: back to good old fashioned police work end quote. Police
18:49
Speaker 2: say several times this was not a random home invasion,
18:53
Speaker 2: and Chief Slaughter also said something that alluded to money
18:56
Speaker 2: being involved. He said, quote, while they didn't live a
18:59
Speaker 2: lavish lifestyle, both of them had investments end quote. So again,
19:06
Speaker 2: what was their net worth? Were they an elderly couple
19:08
Speaker 2: who lived simply? Was there a ton of money being
19:11
Speaker 2: hidden somewhere? What was going on? There are at least
19:14
Speaker 2: two versions of the story. David Swan's daughter, Julie Swan,
19:21
Speaker 2: publicly spoke out. She said that her dad was quote
19:24
Speaker 2: the type of person who was true to his word
19:26
Speaker 2: end quote. She said he was a successful accountant and
19:30
Speaker 2: he was generous with money. But Mina's daughter Noel, in
19:34
Speaker 2: her lawsuit, alleged something very different. She seemed to say
19:39
Speaker 2: in her lawsuit that David withheld money, that he was
19:41
Speaker 2: kind of cheap, and that he had done some business
19:43
Speaker 2: deals that had been, in her opinion, a.
19:45
Speaker 1: Little bit shady.
19:46
Speaker 2: She alleged that he had been controlling her mother's finances,
19:50
Speaker 2: and she said that she had discovered a lot of
19:53
Speaker 2: things in David's background that she was not.
19:55
Speaker 1: Aware of, so let's take a deeper look.
20:00
Speaker 2: At some of these allegations. On June twenty four, twenty nineteen,
20:04
Speaker 2: Noel filed her laws suit. She asked for compensation from
20:08
Speaker 2: David's estate for fourteen different items she listed there around
20:12
Speaker 2: half a million dollars in total. Stephen Swann said from
20:16
Speaker 2: the beginning that these allegations were ridiculous, that the estate
20:19
Speaker 2: did not owe that money, that his father and Mina
20:22
Speaker 2: had kept their finances separate. One of the items Noel
20:26
Speaker 2: said she had an issue with was a promisory note.
20:29
Speaker 2: It was signed in two thousand and six by David. Apparently,
20:34
Speaker 2: Mina Swan had homeowner's insurance on her home and David
20:39
Speaker 2: wanted her to drop the homeowner's insurance policy.
20:41
Speaker 1: He thought it was too expensive.
20:42
Speaker 2: So what happened was he signed this promissory note in
20:44
Speaker 2: two thousand and six saying he promised to pay twenty
20:48
Speaker 2: five hundred dollars to Mina every year and to put
20:52
Speaker 2: that money in an account so that if anything ever
20:54
Speaker 2: did happen, they would have money to do the home repairs.
21:00
Speaker 1: She agreed to.
21:00
Speaker 2: This, and they signed an agreement. He said he would
21:04
Speaker 2: deposit money every year that would equal what the premium
21:06
Speaker 2: would have been. If they ever needed that money, they
21:09
Speaker 2: would take it out of that fund, and David agreed
21:11
Speaker 2: to cover any amount that was in excess of that. Now,
21:14
Speaker 2: there's nothing necessarily alarming about that at all. David may
21:18
Speaker 2: have been totally right, it may not have been worth
21:20
Speaker 2: the money to have that insurance policy, but it's obvious
21:23
Speaker 2: from what Noel said in her lawsuit that she believed
21:26
Speaker 2: this was about more than that. She obviously had issues
21:29
Speaker 2: with David controlling her mother, so at first those payments
21:34
Speaker 2: were put into an account Noel said her mom had
21:36
Speaker 2: access to it. Then in June of twenty eighteen, the
21:40
Speaker 2: balance was transferred into a new Charles Schwab account. Mina
21:44
Speaker 2: was the joint owner of that account, but later Noel
21:47
Speaker 2: claimed the money was moved into another account, an account
21:50
Speaker 2: that only David had access to, and that wasn't Noel's
21:53
Speaker 2: only complaint. Noel also alleged that David failed to make
21:57
Speaker 2: payments that he agreed to make to her mother. Basically,
22:00
Speaker 2: she claimed David had been trying to hide money from
22:04
Speaker 2: her mother. Again, Steven Swann.
22:07
Speaker 1: Said this entire lawsuit was bogus.
22:10
Speaker 2: And in the end the court appeared to side with
22:12
Speaker 2: him because Noel's lawsuit was dismissed. But I want to
22:17
Speaker 2: dive into this a little bit because through Noell and
22:20
Speaker 2: Stephen's depositions we get two drastically different versions of this
22:24
Speaker 2: marriage that it seemed so perfect to the outside world.
22:28
Speaker 2: It's one of the only ways I can think of
22:30
Speaker 2: of really getting behind closed doors and finding out what's
22:33
Speaker 2: going on. Noel and her sister were both deposed, and
22:39
Speaker 2: they said David made their mother feel unsafe. They painted
22:43
Speaker 2: a completely different picture of the relationship between David.
22:46
Speaker 1: And Minus Wan.
22:47
Speaker 2: And again, I have no idea if any of this
22:50
Speaker 2: is true. They could be completely wrong. We just don't know.
22:56
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is that when we're trying to figure
22:57
Speaker 2: out victimology, it is crucial to understand how family members
23:01
Speaker 2: and friends view this relationship between David and Mina. Remember
23:06
Speaker 2: what I said about David's obituary and there being another
23:09
Speaker 2: woman who showed up in court records but who was
23:11
Speaker 2: not mentioned to the obituary. Well, the deposition seemed to
23:15
Speaker 2: confirm that, according to Noel's deposition, David was actually married
23:19
Speaker 2: to someone else when he got together with Mina. Noel
23:24
Speaker 2: alleged that David had moved in on their mom very
23:27
Speaker 2: quickly after their father's death. So it's interesting because the
23:31
Speaker 2: initial financial dispute that Noel had seemed to be solved
23:36
Speaker 2: pretty quickly. According to the information that Steven Swan provided
23:41
Speaker 2: the court, Noel had made a mistake. She had been
23:44
Speaker 2: double counting on certain accounts. She thought there was money
23:47
Speaker 2: there that didn't exist. He also said that even if
23:52
Speaker 2: there was money in a homeowner's insurance account that belonged
23:55
Speaker 2: to Minus one after David and Mina's death, he said
23:59
Speaker 2: Noel would have had no right to that money. The
24:01
Speaker 2: money was for homeowner's insurance and in the end they
24:04
Speaker 2: didn't need to use it for that reason. And again,
24:07
Speaker 2: the fact that there was fighting over potential inheritance money
24:10
Speaker 2: is not uncommon unfortunately. So in the end, David Swan's
24:14
Speaker 2: estate was settled, but the court cases involving minus estate
24:18
Speaker 2: are still ongoing. I found something else interesting in this lawsuit.
24:23
Speaker 2: I found out Minus Swan's estate was frozen by police. Now,
24:28
Speaker 2: apparently this has something to do with Florida's slayer statute,
24:31
Speaker 2: and that's a law that's on the books. That basically
24:34
Speaker 2: prevents anyone who is related to the deceased from profiting
24:39
Speaker 2: off of the death if they are believed to have
24:42
Speaker 2: had anything to do with it. I don't know all
24:44
Speaker 2: the legalities of that law, but it is mentioned in
24:46
Speaker 2: the deposition, and that is the reason why the estate
24:49
Speaker 2: was frozen. So meanwhile, while all this stuff is going
24:52
Speaker 2: on in the background, the family has publicly appealed for help.
24:58
Speaker 2: Stephen has told reporters that he does believe that these
25:01
Speaker 2: murders were about money. He said, quote, I already have
25:05
Speaker 2: six theories of the case. Don't know if any of
25:07
Speaker 2: them are correct, But what do you always hear? Follow
25:11
Speaker 2: the money end quote. Seven months after the murders, police
25:16
Speaker 2: reached out again again. The detective in charge of the investigation,
25:19
Speaker 2: Brian Kinicki, told the Tampa Bay Times that they had
25:23
Speaker 2: multiple detectives looking at the case.
25:25
Speaker 1: They looked at.
25:25
Speaker 2: Hundreds of pieces of evidence, and he said, quote, we're
25:29
Speaker 2: kind of at a point right now where we're really
25:31
Speaker 2: reaching out to our community and the communities that our
25:33
Speaker 2: victims were previously from to see if anybody has any
25:36
Speaker 2: information about their backgrounds, family issues, business issues that might
25:40
Speaker 2: be pertinent to our investigation.
25:42
Speaker 1: It's very very rare for.
25:43
Speaker 2: Us to have an elderly couple or any type of
25:46
Speaker 2: homicide occurring where we don't have an obvious suspect right away.
25:50
Speaker 2: You know, typically they're domestic related or drug gang related
25:53
Speaker 2: end quote. This is interesting to me for a couple
25:57
Speaker 2: of reasons. First of all, I just want to say
26:00
Speaker 2: I think it's great that the police department continues to
26:04
Speaker 2: provide updates even if they don't have that much information,
26:06
Speaker 2: just keeping it in the public eye, allowing the families
26:08
Speaker 2: of boys. I think it's a great thing because a
26:10
Speaker 2: lot of police departments don't do that. Secondly, though, I
26:13
Speaker 2: think it's very telling police are admitting they're basically to
26:16
Speaker 2: dead end. They're saying they need help. I wonder how
26:20
Speaker 2: many of their detectives have experience with what I call
26:25
Speaker 2: fraud detection homicides. I've talked a lot on my other
26:27
Speaker 2: podcast about red collar cases, and one of the most
26:33
Speaker 2: important things in a potential fraud detection homicide is finding
26:38
Speaker 2: out everything that you can about the finances of the
26:40
Speaker 2: deceased and finding people who are close to them, who
26:44
Speaker 2: they have financial relationships with. And the question ask is
26:48
Speaker 2: not necessarily always what would a potential killer gain from
26:53
Speaker 2: someone's death. But at the time of death, did they
26:56
Speaker 2: have a desperate financial situation?
26:58
Speaker 1: What did they believe that they were about to lose?
27:01
Speaker 2: So that's what I've been trying to figure out. So
27:06
Speaker 2: let's take a closer look at some of David and
27:09
Speaker 2: Mina's other family relationships. Noel has been deposed multiple times
27:13
Speaker 2: for the litigation, and she's actually shed a lot of
27:16
Speaker 2: light on the relationship between David, her mother, and her siblings.
27:20
Speaker 2: Noel said both she and her husband worked in the
27:22
Speaker 2: banking industry. Several years before the killing, she moved back
27:26
Speaker 2: to an area of Florida near her mom, so she
27:28
Speaker 2: saw Mina a lot. She got to spend a lot
27:30
Speaker 2: of time with her. David's children lived in Chicago and Oregon,
27:35
Speaker 2: so farther away, but both of Mina's other sons, William
27:40
Speaker 2: and John, also lived in Florida. In her deposition, Noel
27:45
Speaker 2: said she had learned that David Swan was not, according
27:48
Speaker 2: to her, everything he appeared to be, even with really
27:51
Speaker 2: simple things. For example, David was a serious bridge player.
27:56
Speaker 2: She said in her deposition that when David went to
27:58
Speaker 2: play bridge every day that he quote lied to my
28:01
Speaker 2: mother for twenty years about where he was every day
28:04
Speaker 2: end quote. So now I'm wondering what was he supposedly
28:08
Speaker 2: lying about that. She believed he was playing bridge somewhere else.
28:11
Speaker 2: Was there something else going on there? According to the depositions,
28:24
Speaker 2: there were also other issues between this perfect couple and
28:27
Speaker 2: some of their other children. In two thousand and nine,
28:31
Speaker 2: David Swan apparently had an issue with his son, David A. Swan,
28:35
Speaker 2: and they weren't speaking as a result of that, and
28:38
Speaker 2: according to the court documents, this dispute they had was
28:41
Speaker 2: about money. During the deposition, something else came out. Noel
28:45
Speaker 2: apparently told people that the police considered her and possibly
28:50
Speaker 2: one of her siblings suspects. At one point, the attorney
28:54
Speaker 2: questioning Noel asks you did volunteer that you were aware,
28:57
Speaker 2: for whatever reason, remaining as a suspect by the Clearwater
29:01
Speaker 2: Police Department in this matter. She answers, we heard it
29:06
Speaker 2: from a neighbor, didn't hear it from the police, And
29:09
Speaker 2: we talked before about the freeze that police had put
29:12
Speaker 2: on these funds. Noel talks about trying to remove the
29:16
Speaker 2: freeze from those funds and get access to them. She said, quote,
29:20
Speaker 2: so it sounds like to remove the freeze. I need
29:22
Speaker 2: to solve the case that the police are incapable of solving.
29:25
Speaker 1: End quote.
29:27
Speaker 2: I can completely understand her frustration here because it's been years,
29:32
Speaker 2: and naturally I can understand why she would want access
29:36
Speaker 2: to her mother's estate. At the same time, I can
29:39
Speaker 2: see the other side, the police don't want to get
29:42
Speaker 2: this wrong, and they want to keep those funds locked
29:44
Speaker 2: down until they know exactly what happened. It also emerged
29:49
Speaker 2: in the depositions that Mina's son, John Wolfe, was terminally ill.
29:55
Speaker 2: Noel said John had stage four cancer non Hodgkins lymphoma,
30:00
Speaker 2: and that over the years, David and Mina had been
30:03
Speaker 2: helping him financially. Noel said that John had a lot
30:07
Speaker 2: of health issues they had left him basically unable to work.
30:11
Speaker 2: She said he'd had the lifetime maximum of chemotherapy over
30:14
Speaker 2: the years, and eventually his illness meant he got put
30:17
Speaker 2: on disability. So for several years John lived at a
30:21
Speaker 2: property that was owned by Mina on New York Avenue
30:24
Speaker 2: in Clearwater. Noel said John didn't pay rent, but for
30:28
Speaker 2: a long time he did a lot of work on
30:29
Speaker 2: the property. She said it really wasn't in very good shape,
30:32
Speaker 2: and since he did construction type work, he helped fix
30:35
Speaker 2: it up. Noel said that they needed to sell the
30:39
Speaker 2: home at some point, and also John was getting sicker
30:42
Speaker 2: and he couldn't really keep up with the physical labor
30:45
Speaker 2: that he needed to do on that property. So Noel
30:48
Speaker 2: said she found John an apartment for around one thousand
30:50
Speaker 2: dollars a month. She gave him emergency distributions from their
30:54
Speaker 2: mother's estate to pay for his rent and his moving costs,
30:58
Speaker 2: which meant that as of January twenty twenty two, ninety
31:02
Speaker 2: two thousand dollars had been taken out of Minus one's estate.
31:05
Speaker 2: Just over fifty seven thousand dollars of that was emergency
31:09
Speaker 2: distributions to John. In the deposition, Noel said police have
31:14
Speaker 2: told her that they believe that her brother John is
31:17
Speaker 2: faking his cancer. She said, quote, the police have accused
31:22
Speaker 2: him of not being sick, which is insulting to those
31:25
Speaker 2: of us who live with this every day watching him.
31:28
Speaker 2: Were focused on keeping him alive.
31:30
Speaker 1: End quote.
31:31
Speaker 2: She also says that to her knowledge, John is still
31:34
Speaker 2: a suspect, but she says that her brother William apparently
31:37
Speaker 2: is not what emerged during this deposition was a picture
31:43
Speaker 2: of John's finances, and we know that he lived in
31:49
Speaker 2: Minuswan's house for several years with his son. His son
31:52
Speaker 2: was sick at one point and had to go to
31:53
Speaker 2: children's hospital. But Noel said that a year or two
31:57
Speaker 2: before David and Mine's deaths, circumstances started to change. She
32:02
Speaker 2: said that there was apparently a buyer who was interested
32:04
Speaker 2: in the New York Avenue house, the one that John
32:07
Speaker 2: was living in. She said that a couple days later,
32:10
Speaker 2: after this buyer contacted David and Mina, David went over
32:13
Speaker 2: to John's house and quote started screaming at him and
32:16
Speaker 2: telling him he had to leave and move out in
32:19
Speaker 2: seven days end quote. Now, at this point in the deposition,
32:23
Speaker 2: the attorney questioning Noel starts asking her about her mom's will.
32:27
Speaker 2: Noel said that her understanding was that David would take
32:31
Speaker 2: care of her mother they would keep their finances separate,
32:33
Speaker 2: as we've discussed. But Noel alleged that she'd learned a
32:37
Speaker 2: lot about David since her mom's death. She said what
32:40
Speaker 2: she had learned had changed her.
32:41
Speaker 1: View of him.
32:43
Speaker 2: She said that before Mina got involved with David, that
32:47
Speaker 2: her mom had a long time financial broker, but Noel
32:51
Speaker 2: said David allegedly pressured her mom to get rid of
32:53
Speaker 2: this woman, who Noel said was a family friend. She
32:57
Speaker 2: said that in twenty twelve, this woman had witnessed David
33:01
Speaker 2: put his hand over Miya's mouth and that he would
33:04
Speaker 2: throw huge temper tantrums every time they would get in
33:07
Speaker 2: arguments about money. Noel said that David tried to control
33:11
Speaker 2: her mother financially, and Noel said since David's death, she
33:15
Speaker 2: looked into some court records.
33:17
Speaker 1: She said that she had.
33:18
Speaker 2: Found records from Illinois that showed a lot of loans,
33:21
Speaker 2: mortgage foreclosures, and what she called unusual behavior in David's records.
33:26
Speaker 2: Noel said she had a bad feeling about David because,
33:28
Speaker 2: in her opinion, he had kind of taken advantage of
33:31
Speaker 2: her mother when she was in a vulnerable position after
33:33
Speaker 2: her father passed away. She said, quote he moved into
33:39
Speaker 2: mom's house weeks after Dad's funeral end quote. So, reading
33:49
Speaker 2: between the lines from Noel's deposition, it appears that she
33:53
Speaker 2: believed that David did kind of a bait and switch
33:55
Speaker 2: on her mom, that he had presented himself as this
33:58
Speaker 2: amazing businessman who was going to love Mina and take
34:00
Speaker 2: care of her, and that he swept Mina off her
34:03
Speaker 2: feet and took her on trips. I must her this
34:06
Speaker 2: great life, but then in the end turned out to
34:08
Speaker 2: be very controlling with money. Noel claims her mom was
34:12
Speaker 2: not allowed to have a cell phone, or to open
34:14
Speaker 2: the mail or to answer the phone. She claimed that
34:17
Speaker 2: David had isolated her mother from her friends. Now, again,
34:21
Speaker 2: this is only one side of the story. David's son,
34:25
Speaker 2: Steven Swan has said publicly and in court documents that
34:29
Speaker 2: these allegations are completely ridiculous and obviously this is only
34:34
Speaker 2: one person's view of what was going on in this relationship.
34:38
Speaker 2: But in my opinion, we absolutely need to find out
34:40
Speaker 2: more about what was actually going on in that marriage.
34:43
Speaker 2: We really need to talk to the family and Minuswan's friends.
34:55
Speaker 2: Six months after Minah and David were found dead, the
34:58
Speaker 2: families and law enforcement did a public update. Noel made
35:02
Speaker 2: a plea for new information.
35:05
Speaker 4: We are looking very very much for answers. We know
35:09
Speaker 4: that there's answers out there.
35:10
Speaker 5: We know that you know someone out there knows something,
35:12
Speaker 5: and I hope they'll share that information. It's extremely important
35:15
Speaker 5: to us. We wanted to be worn out there as
35:20
Speaker 5: a reminder that Mom was loved and.
35:25
Speaker 4: Very much missed.
35:28
Speaker 6: And now the one thing that could not help, excuse me,
35:33
Speaker 6: the one thing that could help is finding the answers
35:37
Speaker 6: to what happened. So please, if anyone knows something, if
35:40
Speaker 6: anyone hears anything, if they've seen anything, please please call
35:44
Speaker 6: it tipline.
35:45
Speaker 5: It's very important, dumbhele back. We would really love to
35:51
Speaker 5: find the answers in this case.
35:52
Speaker 4: We would like to have our piece. Thank you.
36:00
Speaker 2: Noel and her brother William have spoken up during these
36:03
Speaker 2: press conferences also made a brief statement. He said, I'm
36:08
Speaker 2: very ill and I need some closure before I pass.
36:11
Speaker 2: If you know something, say something. Billboards have been posted
36:16
Speaker 2: across the Tampa Bay area asking for information, and there's
36:19
Speaker 2: been several rewards offered. Right now, the reward is up
36:23
Speaker 2: to fifty three thousand dollars. In twenty twenty, there was
36:28
Speaker 2: another update in the case. Again, this was a little
36:32
Speaker 2: bit bizarre. This is something I'd not seen before, because
36:35
Speaker 2: in September of twenty twenty, the Clearwater Police Department released
36:39
Speaker 2: crime scene photos in an attempt to help the case.
36:42
Speaker 2: It was on the second anniversary two years no arrests.
36:46
Speaker 2: These photos, though, are a little bit bizarre because they're
36:50
Speaker 2: not actually of the crime scene. They're of the exterior
36:53
Speaker 2: of the house, and they're these very mundane photos. I'm
36:56
Speaker 2: going to provide a link to those because I'm really
36:59
Speaker 2: hoping that someone out there will look at these and
37:01
Speaker 2: they will see something that I miss or that the
37:03
Speaker 2: police miss. One of the photos is a close up
37:09
Speaker 2: shot of the Swan's front door of their house. You
37:12
Speaker 2: can see the newspapers in front of their residence. There's
37:15
Speaker 2: a Tampa Bay Times newspaper on top and some other
37:17
Speaker 2: papers in a clear plastic bag. I noticed, though, that
37:21
Speaker 2: the newspapers are neatly lying one on top of the
37:23
Speaker 2: other next to the door. My first thought was usually
37:28
Speaker 2: paper boys throw things in the yard in a kind
37:30
Speaker 2: of crazy way, So who stacked those papers there that neatly?
37:35
Speaker 2: There could be an explanation for it. It could be the
37:37
Speaker 2: woman who knocked on the door to try to get
37:39
Speaker 2: the Swan's flyers, or one of the neighbors.
37:41
Speaker 1: But why would police not say that.
37:44
Speaker 2: I zoomed in on the headline and the newspaper on
37:46
Speaker 2: top was the Tampa Bay Times. I couldn't see the date,
37:50
Speaker 2: but I googled the headline to figure out this was
37:53
Speaker 2: the Tampa Bay Times from Saturday, September twenty ninth, twenty eighteen,
37:57
Speaker 2: So we have Saturday's newspaper, presumably on top of Fridays.
38:02
Speaker 2: Another photo shows the swan's mailbox, a white wooden box
38:06
Speaker 2: with the address ten thirty three printed on it in
38:08
Speaker 2: black letters. There's another picture of the open mailbox with
38:11
Speaker 2: letters inside it. It's just a couple of envelopes and
38:15
Speaker 2: what appears to be jump mail. I can't read what's
38:18
Speaker 2: on the envelopes, and I've really tried. I've zoomed in
38:20
Speaker 2: a lot. Then there's a photo of a car in
38:22
Speaker 2: a garage and pictures of the screened in back porch
38:26
Speaker 2: are what we call in Florida the lunai with the pool.
38:30
Speaker 2: But there's nothing in the picture that I can see
38:31
Speaker 2: that stands out, just a screen door and a closer
38:35
Speaker 2: look inside a screened in porch. The water is blue
38:38
Speaker 2: and clear in the pool. I go back to what
38:41
Speaker 2: Chief of Police Dan Slaughter told media. Based on the
38:45
Speaker 2: time they were last seen, it's likely that David and
38:47
Speaker 2: Minus one were killed between three pm on Thursday and
38:51
Speaker 2: three pm on the following day.
38:53
Speaker 1: Friday.
38:55
Speaker 2: Officers are asking neighbors and friends of the couple to
38:57
Speaker 2: focus on that twenty four hour window. They say if
39:00
Speaker 2: anything unusual stands out, regardless of how small it is.
39:03
Speaker 1: They want to hear from you.
39:05
Speaker 2: If you know anything about this case, please contact the
39:09
Speaker 2: Clearwater Police. The number to call there is seven two
39:12
Speaker 2: seven five six ' two four one four one. In
39:17
Speaker 2: the meantime, I'm going to keep following up on this
39:19
Speaker 2: case because I absolutely believe that the answers are out there.
39:25
Speaker 2: There's something that someone miss There's a missing piece of
39:27
Speaker 2: the puzzle, and we just have to work together to
39:30
Speaker 2: try and figure it out. I'm Catherine Townsend. This is
39:34
Speaker 2: Helen Gone Murder Line. Helen Gone Murder Line is a
39:43
Speaker 2: production of School of Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written
39:47
Speaker 2: and narrated by me Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts.
39:51
Speaker 2: Music is by Ben Sale. Executive producers are Virginia Prescott,
39:55
Speaker 2: Brandon Barr, and Elsie Crowley. If you have a case
39:58
Speaker 2: you'd like me and my team to look into, you
40:00
Speaker 2: can reach out to us at our Helen Gone Murder
40:02
Speaker 2: Line at six seven eight seven four four six one
40:05
Speaker 2: four or five that six seven eight, seven, four, four, six, one,
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Speaker 2: four or five.
40:30
Speaker 1: School of Humans,