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SMNTY Classics: Uber Privilege · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: we never told your production of iHeart Radio. And today
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: we wanted to bring back one we mentioned in our
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Airbnb one, which is about Uber and Lyft and ride
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: sharing in general, um and how that's the problems of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: it and how it's reshaped our economy. We do need
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: to come back into a full revisit because it's changed
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: so much since this, and also it was kind of funny,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: such annoying. The day after that, I think the day
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: that Airbnb one came out, there was a huge report
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: about air and with and then I've saw so many
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: complaints outside of that, I was like, my lord, look
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: at this, that happens to ussel I swear every time
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: I try to be topical, something like that happens. I
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: promise listeners that had not come out episode, but I
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: did want to mention I'm not going to go into
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: the full story because Samantha hasn't even heard it yet
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: and it's quite long. I had to take a forty
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: minute trick recently and I took a lift driver and
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: she was very kind, but she immediately diagnosed me as
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: a people please her and was like, here, here's what
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: you need to do, here's how you're going to stand
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: up for yourself. I'm just giving me all this stuff.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: And she kept asking me questions and it kept getting
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: worse and worse, you know, and she's like, oh, this
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: is worse than I thought any and she was using
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: my name and I was like, okay, well I'm gonna
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: you're right, I'm going to confront these issues whatever whatever.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I get dropped off at the location an hour and
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: thirty minutes later, I have to call another lift and
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: not a sponsor currently by the way, and uh, it's
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: the same woman who picks me up. Like, I don't
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: understand that. What if she searched for your name? She
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: was like, I knew to see you. I was standing
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: outside in the dark and it was drizzling in cold,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: and she drove up, lowered her window and did the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: most like sweetest but very judgmental shake of her head
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: I've ever seen like you did not confront these issues.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: And I was like, no, ma'am, it's only the same day,
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: it's the same night. Makes things like this right now.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: And then it continued on the way back. It was
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: so funny. I felt like I was being scolded in
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: the most fond way. Um, I have to tell you
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: all about it because she had some interesting things to say.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Oh Lord, agree or disagreel let's see, let's see, yes,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh yes. Please. But in the meantime,
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll revisit that the whole story on the show.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: But please enjoy this classic episode. Hey friends, Christen here
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: with a quick correction. In this episode, I share a
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: story about a girlfriend of mine who got harassed in
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: an uber. But in this episode I say it was
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: a lift, but in fact I fact checked the story
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: with my friend and she said it was in fact
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: an uber, not a lift. And the quote it was intense,
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: but I got two weeks of half off rides, so
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: worth it. Dot dot dot sad face emoji. Now onto
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: the show. Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: House top works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: about Uber, Lift, past, Grabbit, Instacart, et cetera, all of
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: these new app based companies that comprise the sharing or
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: gig economy as it's also known as Yes, I gotta
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: say I love a lot of these apps. They make
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: life easier. I use insta Cart like once a week, probably, um,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: because who has to have to go to the grocery store.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: This episode is not brought to you by any of
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: these companies, I assure you, but I am curious. Has
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: it replaced your grocery shopping? For the last part, my
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: husband is currently obsessed with Uber Eats, which means we
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: are not grocery shopping as much as we should be. Yeah. Well,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: so I've been sick and my boyfriend has been away working,
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: and so there's been really no incentive for me to
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: like cook a big dinner because I just don't have
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: the appetite for it. So I've been using Uber Eats,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: and I gotta tell you, I was actually disappointed because
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: not in Uber eats. But I pulled up my Caviare
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: app the other night, which is another meal delivery service.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: They'll pick it up from a restaurant. They are no
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: longer in Atlanta. Really, Yeah, so I guess I have
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: to delete Caviare from my phone. Um, but I definitely
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: have been relying on Uber Eats and insta Cart quite
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: a bit. I actually met my a cart driver at
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: the door the other day, said thank you so much
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: you don't realize how much you're saving a really sick person.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: As she hands me bags of chicken noodle soup, Thailan
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: all Colden signs saltine crackers. Well, this reminds me too
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: of a women in Tech breakfast that I went to
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: a while back, where this panel was going around giving
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: their just go to advice for essentially making your life
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: easier if you're an ambitious woman in tech or really anywhere.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: And one of the oldest women on the panel, who
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: also has kids, who is h v i P in
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: her sector, set outsource everything that you can, and a
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: lot of that relies on the sharing economy. I was
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: actually talking to a girlfriend last night who is working
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: in a really demanding job and she has started outsourcing
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: her house cleaning via it's not task grab it, but
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: it's something tailor. It might be through handy um, and
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: she talked about how it's so worth the money because
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of just the any cleaning related tension that might be
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: in the house between her and her husband. It's just
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: taken care of now. Side note for your friend, she
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: is brilliant because this is something I've literally discussed in therapy,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: and my therapist has encouraged my boyfriend and me who
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: lived together, um too ethically higher uh professional or some
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: type of contractor to come in and clean at least
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: once a month, And of course, like we don't necessarily
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: have the time or the money. And I also have
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: that guilt of like I've at least got to pick
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: the house up first. I feel the same way because
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: the thing is and and and boyfriend dog, you know,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: with with him being in the studio and me having
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: been sick and whatever, like, we haven't been able to
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: clean the house and it both stresses us out to
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: the max. But the thing is, we still just have
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: so much stuff on the floor. So he was like,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: you know, while you're not feeling well and I'm at work, like,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: why don't we use one of those apps to like
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: have someone come over and clean? And I was like,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: I'm not having a stranger come in this house to
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: pick up when there's so much on the floor that
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: they can't even like start the vacuum, right, Like I
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: at least need to put some crap in the attic
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: before I have somebody come over. But then I also
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: have the fear of all of these horror stories I've
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: heard about like the handyman or cleaner comes over and
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: like extorts you for money, or like won't leave. I
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: used I won't tell you the app. I don't want
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: to upset anyone. UM. I used one of those apps
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: to have a handyman come over. I needed the driveway
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: and the backpath. I needed like everything around my house
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: pressure washed because we have all sorts of grass stuff
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: everywhere on the driveway. And uh, bless his heart that
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: God did not know how do you as a pressure washer?
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: I had to go out. I wasted like two hours
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: that day, like helping him run the pressure washer. So
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: I wasted a lot of time and money. And so
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think I will ever. I don't think I'll
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: ever use like one of those handyman apps again, but
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: potentially a house cleaner I would. So the how these
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: apps and the sharing economy can backfire both on the
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: user and the employee is going to be the focus
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: of this conversation UM. And beyond the potential of people
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: who are not qualified being hired to do these jobs,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: there is a physical risk factor that UM is becoming
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: more and more of a concern a topic of conversation.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: For instance, when I was in New York. A couple
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: of weeks ago, I was at a girlfriend's apartment and
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: talking about heading back to the airport, and I was
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: saying that I always use LIFT. I prefer them. The
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: drivers get a larger cut um than they do through Uber,
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: so I try to support them with that, and usually
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: they're cheaper. And she said, oh yeah, well I I
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: can ride for free on left for a really long time.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: And I asked why, of course, and she said, well, um,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: ever since a driver locked me in the car and
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: wouldn't let me out until I gave him my phone number,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: they're giving me free rides left and right. And I'm
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: not saying this to try to implicate Lift in any way,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: shape or form um, but she also said it so
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: casually and so excitedly, of like, oh yeah, I get
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: to ride around for free. This is kind of amazing.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: But I was like, wait, let's go, let's go back.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Uh was that not terrifying? She's like, oh yeah, oh yeah.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: She's also very tough though, you know, she's like she's
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: got that you know, New York tough thing. And I
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: was trying to kind of play it off, but uh, yeah,
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: there's the there's there's also the risk involved with the
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: sharing economy, and also too, that's one reason why we're
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: seeing not only in the US but abroad the rise
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: of women only taxi companies. Yeah, I mean I think
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: I think all the time about also being in New
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: York a couple of months ago and getting into the
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: front seat of an uber just wasted. Um, we might
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: have gone out for drinks with some listeners, those listeners
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: might have been incredibly generous with buying us drinks. In anyway,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: you guys gotta be wasted. And I get in this
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: uber and I'm like arguing in a good natured way.
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: The driver was very nice, but I'm like arguing with
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: him about Beyonce's feminism because he was like basically the
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: whole line of like Beyonce can't be a feminist because
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: she doesn't wear pants, and like she's she's a disgrace
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: to women in pop You should listen to Adele instead.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Nothing against Adele, but I like think back to that
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: and it's anything could happen, you know, And I mean
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: that's true of life in general, and true of traditional
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: cab drivers. Yeah, but like there is that that thing
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: of like, hey, you are just trusting that this person
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: will get you to your destination safely, not touch you
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: or do anything to harm or intimidate you, and then
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: unlock the car and let you out when you get
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: to your destination. Well, and that's the thing. There are
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: obviously those very real and legitimate safety concerns that these
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: companies like Uber, Left etcetera. Are needing to be more
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: accountable too. But then also there is on the back
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: end of it, the concern for how equitable these situations
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: are for the people who are taking these gigs. Who
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: are you know, doing these side hustles or they might
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: be their main hustles. Because the sharing economy has grown
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: so much and it's worth so much that there's a
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: risk that I mean, even at this point, we're trying
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: to gigify so much that we are not doing it
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: in a very ethical way. So just to put some
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: numbers though around why uh this is so bright and
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: shiny for Silicon Valley investors. So according to data from
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Price Waterhouse Coopers, UH, the sharing economy global revenue could
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: grow from roughly fifteen billion today to three billion. That
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: is not so Obviously we got a gold mine and
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: people are russian to grab as much of it as
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: they can, and they're very popular. We just talked about
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: all of these apps and outsourcing that we're doing for
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: our day to day lives. The Pure Research Center in
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: sixteen found that seventy two of Americans have used a
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: shared or on demand service. Yeah, and I mean when
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: you look at the breakdown of who the workers are
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: a lot of them. Most of them are between eighteen
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: and thirty four versus just a third of the general
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: workforce being between eighteen and thirty four. The majority probably
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: because of their age and our generation tends to have
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: more college degrees. The majority of the gig economy workers
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: do have at least some college experience, and most use
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: their gig as a supplementary income, not as their main income.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: And they're also way likelier to be male, especially if
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: they are an Uber driver. Um just of Uber drivers
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: or women versus Lift, which maybe this is why I'm
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: so into Lift even after my friends horror story. Lift
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: h employees female drivers and also has a lot more
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: female passengers like myself and also employs a leadership team
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: that's half women. Yeah. I thought that was interesting thing too. Yeah,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I um, I might be using Lift more often now anyway,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: There's also the interesting gender breakdown that economists have commented
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: on that men are more likely to do the higher
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: paid gig economy work like being a handyman, like driving
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: for Uber, doing all of this stuff, versus women who
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: tend to and of course this is all broad brush stuff,
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: but tend to do more house cleaning work, more of
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: the light work quote unquote work on Etsy. Etsy is
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: of course largely women. It's something like what like women?
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: That is exactly the percent. I just I literally pulled
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: that out of my head. Um, maybe because I read
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: it last night. Um. And of course to that, Etsy says, listen,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: not everybody's goal is to make a million dollars working
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: in this gig economy. But I do think that that's
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: important to keep kind of in the back of your
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: mind when you're looking who's employed doing what work, and
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: you know, without any sort of health insurance or benefits.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: And on the flip side of that, if we look
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: at the users, they tend to be younger, no surprise,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: we tend to have college degrees, but might be on
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: a financially shaky ground. I know that one reason why
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: myself and a lot of my friends use Uber and
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: lyft is because it's so much cheaper than getting a cab.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: And also we're paying for a d U I well, exactly, well,
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: and also we live in Atlanta and unless you are
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: at the airport, cabs kind of don't exist around here. Um,
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: so that brings up this socio economic divide that Pure
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Research also highlighted. Yeah, so you know, we mentioned a
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: second ago that oh my god, so many Americans use
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: ride sharing, use food delivery, use all of these sharing
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: economy apps. But Pew found that just ten of people
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: who live in homes with earnings below thirty dollars have
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: booked trips with ride hailing companies, for instance, and nearly
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: fifty of these people aren't familiar with them at all.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: And when you move from ride sharing to a platform
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: like Airbnb, only four percent of Americans at that earning
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: point have used those home sharing or home rental platforms,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: while sixty nine percent of people with earnings below thirty
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: thousand as their whole household number don't even know about
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: them at all. Oh yeah, I mean all this stuff
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: is to me like very much a luxury. I mean,
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: it's it's not You're not spending a ton of money
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: necessarily at one time, unless we go real bonkers on uberreds,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: which has happened before. But I mean, it's still like
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: going out and getting a manicure rather than painting your
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: nails at home, you know, exactly exactly. And if you
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: are pinching every penny, counting every dollar, like, you're not
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: gonna want to pay the whatever seven nine insta cart
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: fee to get your groceries to within the very next hour,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: which I do a lot actually because I want my
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: chicken little soup. But you know, I mean, and I'm
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm saying this in jest, because of course that's
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: an incredibly privileged thing to be able to say, to
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: not only be aware of the app and use the app,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: but also pay the extra money to get it delivered
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: as fast as possible. Absolutely. Um. But there was also
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: this issue of inclusivity, and here's kind of the twisted things.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: So there's this paper that came from Business for Social
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Responsibility that was really pointing to inclusivity as a major
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: benefit for both share economy workers and customers, and one
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: of their consultants said, quote, the sharing economy offers a
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: way for people to act more independently and to democratize things. Okay,
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I can see how you would come to that conclusion. Uh,
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: it is a more human business model than the old
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: economy with corporations and customers. And you know what, ideally, yes, absolutely, Um,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: they're also benefits for the companies. When you have more
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: people who can participate in the sharing economy, companies are
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: going to benefit from untapped revenue i e. User acquisition,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: and a more intentional focus on inclusion could strengthen companies
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: contributions to communities and build trust with governments seeking to
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: regulate them. So this all sounds so great. It sounds
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: so great, so great, um, and you know there is
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: a benefit. There can be a really great benefit for
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: marginalized or underserved communities when you have things like rides
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: sharing apps, and that inclusivity could help connect people to
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: goods and services that maybe are out of reach otherwise.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: You know, it could dismantle some of those barriers that
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: people face to ownership. For instance, if they're able to
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: like use zip car, where they can you know, share
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: a car essentially to get from there, you know, train
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: station to wherever they're going. Um. There was a New
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: York University study on the sharing economy impact. That was
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: based on data from get Around, which is a car
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: sharing service kind of like a zip car um. They
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: found that ride sharing had a disproportionately positive effect on
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: lower income consumers because ownership is a barrier to consumption.
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: So if people are allowed and able to consume, that's
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: a boon to companies who are trying to make money,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: but it's also a boon for people in communities who
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: are just trying to get places. Uber did a study
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: in l A and they found that their Uber x
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: rides are available in twenty one low income neighborhoods at
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: a lower price than taxis and that they arrive in
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: less than half the time. And there have been other
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: studies that have shown that telephone dispatch taxi services in
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: poor urban neighborhoods, for instance, are consistently slower and less
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: reliable than taxi services and wealthier communities. And I remember,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I mean this was before Uber and left, but I
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: remember being at a birthday party years ago now and
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: everybody was just so drunk and um we literally tried
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: to call a cab, but it just we kept getting
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: a busy signal, busy signal. When we finally got through
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: they were like, yeah, it's gonna be about two hours. Um,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: it was already like one in the morning. Uh. So
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: our friend who had just had and we were like downtown,
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: uh in Augusta. And our friend who has mistake, they're
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: no kidding. Uh. And our friend who had just had
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: a lot less to drink than the rest of us
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: but was not sober, was the one who like slowly
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: and carefully drove us home. Yeah. So I mean obviously,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: like these are these are good services, Like we can
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: use these kinds of things their positives. Yeah, And I
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: mean according to a Pew survey, I mean Pews all
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: over this of rides sharing, users in general feel that
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: these services are less likely to discriminate against people based
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: on their race or appearance than taxis are little come
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: back to that one in a little bit, but I
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: mean this is important because access to transportation. The Brookings
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Institution found, uh to get to work is correlated with
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: upper mobility. I mean, there's that super common sense. There's
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: no surprise there. Being able to get to work on
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: time is hugely correlated with continuing to be employed. But unfortunately,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: in a lot of metro areas, including Atlanta, where you
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: and I are do not have adequate public transportation options,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: and only a quarter of low and middle skilled jobs
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: are accessible via public transit that take ninety minutes or
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: US in the largest US metro areas, and low income
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: people are more likely to work during off hours and
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: less likely to have a driver's license. Not to mention, like,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: your shorter commutes usually don't happen if you are living
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: in a low income area, right, yeah, And I um again, like,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I don't mean to make this all about me. I'm
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: just trying to give anecdotal examples that yeah, right, um.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: But So I was looking at Zillo the other day
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to see, like, oh, can my boyfriend and I afford
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: to move anytime soon? No? Okay, cool? So I found
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: an affordable, nice house for rent, like way farther out
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: than where we live now, and I was like, okay, well,
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I wonder how long it would take me to get
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: to work, And I plugged it in and during a
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: no traffic time in Atlanta, that's pretty rare. But during
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: a time of no traffic, it would take me about
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: twenty five minutes from that house to get to the office,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: which that's not terrible, especially based on Atlanta times. Um,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: and I like, well, I don't know if I want
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: to drive that, Like it's kind of close to a
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: train station. A Marta is the train system here in Atlanta.
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: Let me let me see, according to Google Maps, how
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: long it would take me to get to my job
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: using Atlanta Mass Transit over ninety minutes. Oh, I'm not
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: surprised because I would have had to take a bus
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: or walk a long way to the train station first
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: of all, and then take the train all the way down.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't know if it disappears into
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: a wormhole. Why is it taking the train so long
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: to get to midten Atlanta? Anyway, take the train all
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the way to Midtenan, Atlanta, and then take another bus
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: to the office. And it's like, I have the luxury
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: of a Honda Fit. I could make that or thirty
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: minute commute from that far out house, you know, in
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: the part of Atlanta that's still affordable, Um, but far
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: from everybody has that luxury. Yeah. So again benefits to
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: this sharing economy, but that is really when all other
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: variables aren't controlled for you know what I mean that
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: this is the best case scenario situation for this because
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: of course, as we've already mentioned there are obvious downsides,
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: starting with shrinking workers rights. Yeah, so this is a
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: huge thing that economists have pointed out that labor protections
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: under the Fair Labor Standards Act generally don't apply to
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: these independent contractors. And that's why you should be scared
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: about the numbers that Christens cited at the top of
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: the podcast in terms of like the billions of dollars
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: that the sharing economy is going to be worth by,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: because that's a lot of money going to people who
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: don't have any legal recourse against abuse, etcetera, etcetera. So
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: um Airbnb, for instance, requires people to wave their right
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: to sue or join any class action lawsuit. And uh
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Tom Slee, who's the author of What's Yours Is Mine,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: told broadly that he sees this general chipping away of
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: protections for people who have fought for those protections tooth
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: and nail, women, people of color, people with disabilities. He said,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: it's not really fashionable to be in favor of bureaucracy
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: and rules, but equal pay for equal work, minimum wage laws,
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: employment standards that limit employers right to fire at will,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: and anti discrimination laws were the result of years of
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: struggle by feminists, unionists, and anti racism groups. I don't
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: think they should be thrown away just because a new
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: app has a rating system. And I mean that all
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: rating system thing is something that Polack Shaw with the
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: National Domestic Workers Alliance points out can hold a lot
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: of power over someone's head. Shaw said that that rating
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: system that like every app has, can result in workers
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: finishing a job when they don't feel safe just for
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: fear of receiving a poor rating, and there for less
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: work because yeah, I mean, if you do a terrible job,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: you should get a terrible rating. If you harass a customer,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: yeah you should get a terrible rating and be fired.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: But if you are at the home of someone who
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: is a great a jerk, maybe they're harassing you or
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: threatening you or whatever. I mean to to have to
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: feel like you've got to put up with that just
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: to be able to continue to work, because who knows,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: maybe you haven't been able to get a job in
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: the mainstream economy and this is the way that you
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: have to make money. And companies would say, oh, well,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: that's why we allow our employees to also write the customers,
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't account for the actual situation that that
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: employee might still have to go through in order to
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: get to the point of rating a customer. I mean,
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: uber drivers, lift drivers, etcetera. They can kick people out
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: of their cars and say, you know, I'm not going
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: to deal with this person and it's not going to
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: hurt them necessarily. But Shaw brings up a really important point,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: especially if you are in someone else's home. I mean,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: I think the situation is probably different with a ride
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: sharing UH set up because you're in your own car,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: you know, so you you might have feel like you
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: have a little bit more leverage to not put up
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: with ridiculous people. Yeah, And I mean I think also,
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: I mean you're likely if you have to kick out
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: a violent passenger, someone's probably gonna catch that on a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: on an iPhone. Honestly, Like the the woman who was
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: drunk in that Uber guy's car and started like hitting
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: him and throwing things at him from the backseat, and
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: he was trying to remove her and not like hurt
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: her at the same time, and she was hitting him
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: kicking him. I mean, it was. It can be crazy
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: and not the taxi drivers don't put up with that,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: but there's a lot of abuse that you can take
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: as a worker for some of these gig apps, which
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: is why some people are pushing Uber and others to
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: require drivers to have cameras in their cars, like we're
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: doing with police, both to protect customers and drivers. Um.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: But it's like, once you get home, your shift is done. Okay,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: you might have pocketed some cash, probably not as much
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: as advertisements would lead you to believe that you're going
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: to make UM, but you're not going to get any
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: benefits on top of that, unless, of course, you are
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: classified as a direct employee of say a Handy or Uber. Yeah,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I mean because of things like the terrible child care
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: system and non existent family of system in this country.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Like maybe you are a woman who's opted to go
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: for more flexible work schedule like an Uber or a
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: lift can provide. But yeah, they're there, it's not like
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: they're providing for you in any way. Not. I mean,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: no person who's employing a contractor has to provide for
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: you in that way. Well, and that's the thing I mean.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: This to me is a symptom of a broader issue
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: of our contract economy. And how uh in I m
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: h O. There are way too many massive corporations that
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: are allowed to rely way too much on contract work
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: so that they don't have to pay benefits. Which is
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: interesting because I feel like a lot of this app
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: culture came out after the or or from the recession,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: when it's like, Okay, well everybody's been laid off, but
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: we can bootstrap our own app and make millions and
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm a guy who's going to create
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: this app and make a lot of money to make
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: everybody's lives easier. Um So, but then you just end
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: up with a workforce that still isn't able to get
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: any sort of legal protections as full time employees. And
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: I mean, how how independent are you really when like,
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: for instance, if you're a driver for a driving service
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: a rideshare app, You've still got to pay your own
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: car expenses. You've still got to pay your own parking tickets,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: which I totally feel like those companies should pay for
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: if you're a driver for them and you end up
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: getting a ticket anyway, Um, some drivers end up earning
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: like three bucks an hour after they have to pay
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: for all of this stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean,
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: and also depending on if you have to cancel rides,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of stuff they can influence how
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: much money you're actually going to take home. And then
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: of course, on the flip side of that, there are
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: all sorts of concerns over consumer protection, including price transparency,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: privacy risks, UH, safety standards, And these are the kinds
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: of issues that could leave users very vulnerable and have
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: left users vulnerable, particularly lower income users or are users
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: in more and just marginalized groups in general who have
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: fewer channels for legal recourse. Yeah, and I mean, you know,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: Kristen was talking about the push to get Uber to
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: have cameras in their cars. Uber comes back with that saying, um,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: it's too much of an expense for our new drivers. Um.
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: And Uber has been slammed lot for loopholes allowing them
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: to hire people with felony convictions. Because the thing is
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: and this is a thing that like taxi people have
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: been like hammering home a lot. Uh. And of course
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: they have their own agenda. But you know, Uber background
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: checks use a database that can only go back for
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: seven years, and they refuse to fingerprint their drivers versus
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: taxi companies who check a prospective driver's fingerprint records against
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: a database that theoretically include their complete criminal history in
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: this country. And the whole fingerprinting thing is why uh,
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: companies like Uber and Lift pulled out of Austin, Texas
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: for instance. Austin was ready to clamp down on you know,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: safety rules and rags to try to protect customers, and
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Uber was basically like, nope, so since what is its
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: spring of this year? Yeah? Yeah, there. It was actually
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: because of something called Proposition one that failed that, according
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: to the Daily Dot, would have replaced an ordinance adopted
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: into some are that required them to conduct those finger based,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: fingerprint based background checks on the whole thing with those
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: FBI fingerprint checks that they take sixteen weeks, and Uber's like, nope,
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: that's a barrier to new drivers getting a job with
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: us so that they can quickly make money. And it
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: just really sounds like, well, no, that's more of honestly
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: a barrier to you making money off those drivers. But
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: that's neither handle there. Um. Actually that's the whole point
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: of this podcast, um. And in general, for communities that
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: you know, that Business for Social Responsibility Report talked a
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: lot about the inclusivity of these apps and services and
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: the benefits for low income communities. But the thing is
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: um because of all the money that's going toward rideshare apps,
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: for instance, that could actually result in a weekend push
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: for expanded public transit options. But like, who is that
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: affecting because a lot of people who don't use rides
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: share apps still need better pub transit. But like if
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: you and I don't care anymore about expanding public trans
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: in Atlanta because we're able to just hop into a lift,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: that takes away a lot of the like vocal citizen
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: muscle that can go into saying no, no, no, we
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: still want you to expand Marta, Please expand Marta. So
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: essentially this means and this is what we're gonna do.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: And the next half of the podcast, when we come
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: back from a quick break, is talk about the privilege
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: wrapped up in how the sharing economy is structured. And
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: we'll get back to that end just a second. Okay,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: So obviously I was surprised to anyone racism. Hello, it
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: is a main factor and a lot of the crap
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: that goes on with the gig economy. You know that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: that BSR report was like, it's an end to racism.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: You don't have to discriminate against anyone because of their color.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Oh if only life were that great. Um. In late
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: May of this year, there was a twenty five year
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: old black man who sued Airbnb for racial discrimination, and
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: as reports we Read pointed out, his account reflects a
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: recent Harvard study that documented widespread discrimination against African American
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: guests on Airbnb. Hello, how many articles have we read
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: talking about black individuals, men or women or both who
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: show up to their Airbnb rental and like, have the
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: cops called on them because people think they're breaking in? Yeah,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: hence the hashtag Airbnb while black. So the hashtag uber
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: black Oh yeah, same thing exactly, and Airbnb's response seemed
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: to be really strong. But to me, it comes out
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: like a lot of hot air. So their responses to
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: of course denounce racism. Uh. They engaged the former head
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: of the a C l U d C Office to
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: find ways that they can address challenge of racist Airbnb hosts. UM.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: They suspended or banned people who violated its anti discrimination policy. Like,
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: for instance, trans woman Shady Potowski got a lot of
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: noise going on Twitter when she recounted her experience of
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: UM having her Airbnb reservation declined because she was like, Hey,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: I'm a trans woman. Uh, the world stage is not
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: necessarily the safest place for me, So I always make
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: sure to disclose two potential Airbnb host that I'm a
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: trans woman, because god forbid, I show up in person
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: and there is some sort of awful thing that happens. Anyway,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: her post on Twitter ended up getting a lot of
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: attention in Airbnb, and I think that's like a year
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: after the fact, Airbnb ended up banning that host as
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: part of their anti discrimination efforts, which I mean, that's great,
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: but it would be better if there were policies and
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: procedures in place to prevent that from happening from the
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: get go. Um. Airbnb also actually hired former US or
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: any general eric holder to strengthen its anti discrimination policy. Yeah.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, personally speaking, I give them props for acting
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: as to me quickly as they have. UM. In between
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: a big study that came out a few months back,
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: UM really quantifying the unconscious bias and alright racism UM
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: that happens through their platform. And I do think that
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: they're serious about it. Um. And it goes to this
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: issue of you know, having to take an intersectional approach
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: to how you are creating these apps and realizing that, yeah,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: I mean you're going to have to try to use
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: technology to work around unconscious bias in addition to racism. Yes, yes,
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: and that's why you have straight up anti discrimination policies.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: But in terms of unconscious bias, that's when we get
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: into the questions of like, okay, pro file pictures, maybe
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that is not necessarily something that we need to have
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: because that sparks it. There have been um situations where
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: there's a woman of color who noticed she was getting
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: turned down an awful lot for airbnbs, so she switched
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: her profile picture to not reveal her ethnicity and low
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: and behold, she's getting acceptances left in her eyes. Well exactly.
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: And on the flip side, there's a similar profile picture
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: issue with hosts. So there's this research sided in Forbes
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: that found that black hosts are charging about twelve percent
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: less for equivalent rentals by non black hosts, and it's
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: because they might be having a harder time attracting guests
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: and have to keep their prices low. The whole thing
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: is that Airbnb tells new hosts that they quote may
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: want to charge lower than average rates to attract travelers
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: at first, Like when you first get on Airbnb, no
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: matter who you are. Start lower, attract a good audience
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: that can give you good reviews, and then raise your
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: prices from there. But the researchers were finding that black
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: hosts lower prices were evidence of a permanent disadvantage. Why
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: what is the layer there? Well, Airbnb, if you I mean,
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: if you've ever used it, I've used it numerous times.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: When you're searching for rentals, you know you've got the
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: picture of the rental front and center, but also like
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: right there on the side is the picture of the host,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: and sure you know you can have as The example
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: is that you can have the Eiffel Tower as your
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: profile picture. But the whole thing is that you're using
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: your face to put people at ease like, hey, I'm
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: a human, I'm not some predator or whatever, like you
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: can trust me and rent from me. Um. But the
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: fact is, whether it's conscious or not, a lot of
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: people are passing up units being rented out by black
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: individuals because of racial bias. Well, and also to the
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Eiffel Tower example. Our social media habits, especially if you
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: look at Facebook and Instagram, the things that we are
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: drawn to the most are photos, not of objects but
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: of actual people, so I can see why like you're
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: and also too, if I were to run across an
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: airbnb um listing with an object rather than a person,
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: I know there would be a moment in my head
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: of like, who is this really? What are they? What
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: are they trying to hide? Well? And I mean that's
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: a real fear for a lot of people because there
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: have been so many reports too of harassment and sexual
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: assault by women who have showed up at a rental
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: and the person who's there to hand in the keys
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: or share a room is not the person whose picture
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: was on the site, So like, even if your picture
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: is not the Eiffel Tower or like a dog, you know,
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: there's still so much potential to lie and take advantage, right,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: And uh this has me thinking too of the difference
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: between Airbnb and older rental platforms like Verbo and home
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: away um, which my husband and I have used the
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: number of times, especially for things like renting things like
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: cabins and beach condos, which makes us sound fancy, but
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: we go there because we can't afford a fancy one
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: um and there are no on the listenings. You only
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: see a thumbnail of actual home once you are thinking
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: you really want to rent it, and then you go
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: to the rental page. You can see their profile and
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: there's usually a picture and the way to contact them
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: and all of that. But it is more focused solely
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: on what the place looks like rather than who you're
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: renting from, which is kind of interesting. And in one
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: of these pieces focusing on Airbnb, I think they reached
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: out to Verbo for comment and Verbo was like, nah,
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: so I don't. I don't. I'm not sure why, but yeah,
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: well yeah, And I mean those researchers sided by Forbes
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: definitely said the profile pictures should be less prominent. Maybe
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: don't even have one on the search page at all.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I'll move it inside, and um, ask yourself, as the
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: renter why it matters, especially if you're renting a home.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: I can understand, like if you're sharing a space, if
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: you're not doing the whole home option, maybe you just
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: want a seller who is also a woman, for instance,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: to feel safer. But I mean, I think asking yourself
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: about your biases is always a good exercise, but since
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: people you know are not always so great at doing that.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: There's the guy who launched Noir B and B particularly
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: for people of color looking for rentals who don't want
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: to have to deal with all of this nonsense. And
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: we're seeing, you know, women who exclusively want to rent,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: especially for like a shared situation where someone's just running
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: a room. They only want to rent to other women.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: But they don't want to be seen as discriminatory. They're
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: just like, well, that's my comfort level too. Yeah, I mean,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and that's an issue of like we're starting to self
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: segregate in the interest of safety. I mean, yeah, that
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: twenty seven year old guys Stephen Grant was one of
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: the many, many African Americans who had had the cops
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: called on him and his girlfriend when they showed up
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: to check into their Airbnb, and he basically just said, yeah,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: we launched noir BnB. It's called because we realized there
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: was a lack of concern for the safety and comfort
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: of black travelers and we wanted to fill that void. Um.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: He said, human beings create technology, but there needs to
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: be more diversity when it comes to the creators of
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: said technology. And that is a massive point we're about
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: to hit too. Um. But we have to talk about obviously,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: sexual harassment and sexual violence. The unfortunate thing about it
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: when it comes to these gig economy apps, is that
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: the numbers are really murky. Um. Sometimes things get reported,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: sometimes they don't. Sometimes people report things straight to the
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: app and not the cops sometimes vice versa, and the
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: cops don't always necessarily right down, you know, whether it
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: was a sexual assault in an airbnb versus a taxi
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: or whether it's a sexualssault on the street, they don't
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: necessarily break it down that way right. Um. And in
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: case you are listening and want to know more about this,
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: will post the link, of course on this podcast post,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: but you can also go to Who's driving You dot
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: org because there is no, you know, the other database
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: of these kinds of instances, and they itemize reported incidents
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: involving Uber and list specifically and break it down by crime.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: And you're scrolling through and first there are deaths and
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: there are a number of them. There are assaults, and
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: then you scroll down to alleged sexual assaults and harassment,
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: and the list just goes on and on and on
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: and on. I'm just like, I mean, I was stunned.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, I I knew that this was an issue,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: but just seeing it when you're just scrolling through it
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: it will hit you. And Uber for one kind of
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: refuses to take any responsive ability for this or refuses
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: to admit that the numbers might be as high as
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: they are, because why would you lie and go on
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: this website that you're talking about, Kristen, Why would you
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: take the time to even make that up. Um. There
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: was a little bit of a kerfuffle. BuzzFeed published screenshots
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: from a former Uber customer service rep that showed more
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: than six thousand tickets in the database for sexual assault
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: and nearly six thousand for rape, and Uber was like, no, no,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: that's not that's not right. They said that only five
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: of those were legitimate rape tickets and fewer than a
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: hundred and seventy sexual assault cases legitimate rape. Hyeah, you know,
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: you know, like you're in sketchy territory when that happens.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: And uh, what they blamed the inflated numbers on, or
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: which they said were inflated, was typos. They said people
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: meant to type rap eight like as in the fair
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: instead of rape, or they were saying tacky things like
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: your prices raped my wallet, right, and and to that example,
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: that's why, no, don't don't use rape in that context,
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: that is not rape. Um, and just anecdotally, I don't
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: think that my iPhone has ever auto corrected anything to rape.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: I'm shrugging my shoulders right now. I don't know that's
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: well obviously that's just my personal experience. But well sure,
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: but I mean, uber, the the lifeblood of all of
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: these apps is publicity, right, like word of mouth. The
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: app is cool, it's hip, it's cheap, it's got a
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: great user experience. Just inner things. It's so easy, your
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: credit card and vos stored in there. You just you
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: don't have to tip, at least like not handing over
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: the cash. You can tip after, right, and so like,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: oh good, you're protecting me from like potentially getting mugged
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: by some delivery person. But ut um, yeah, you're not
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: protecting me against sexual assault. And there was this horror
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: story that is all over the Internet of this nineteen
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: year old man who was locked up and sexually assaulted
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: by his airbnb host in Madrid. And he didn't know
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: whether his phone, because he's from Massachusetts, he didn't know
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: whether his phone could access international emergency numbers. So he
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: texts his mother from like this basement in Madrid. She
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: contacts Airbnb, they tell her to just call Madrid police
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: herself rather than like sending an agent to go check
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: on him. Um. And when she did, when she took
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: the number that they gave her, that she could not
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: get through to Madrid authorities, and Airbnb, in like a
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: half hearted defense, said, oh, well, we thought the assault
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: had already taken place, so we didn't really know what
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: you wanted. And they wouldn't release the address to her.
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't give any information. And that's where we get
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: into this tough issue two of yes, customers privacy needs
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: to be protected, but also what do you do in
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: these kinds of situations like where is the line and
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: who's making these calls? And why aren't better systems set
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: up in place? You know, I mean there's a lot
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: of like hands up in the air of like nope, no,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: we will take your money and we will act as
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: the go between to like connect users and renters. But
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: right these companies want as little liability as possible hands down, um.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: And really, at the crux of all of this is
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: the issue of privilege. Because I forget who it was
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: who made this excellent point where oh, yes, okay, so
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: this is he here and kale over broadly, who says
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: the lifeblood of asuring economy is the idea that the
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: public space is a safe space wherein individuals can open
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: up their homes to strangers and read the financial and
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: cultural dividends. Okay, just take street harassment alone. We know
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: for a fact that they the public space is not
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: unequivocally a safe space. I mean, this is the assumption
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: held by the people who are developing these apps and
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: these technologies that you can not only walk safely through
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: public spaces, but ride, sleep, work free of harassment. And
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: then it's okay. You just trust as long as you
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: know they see your profile picture and they have a
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: credit card information. You know, if they trash your apartment,
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Airbnb will help you cover that cost. Like, don't worry
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: about it. Everybody can trust each other. What in the
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: world are you talking about. You're talking about public spaces
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: according to sis straight white men, you know, and that
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: and and not saying that like those guys are all terrible.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: I'm married one, um. But it's it's the privilege issue
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: and the fact that we need to accept that. No,
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: this isn't some kind of uh color blind utopia, nor
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: should it be you know, yeah, I mean Kal points
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: out that, um, you know, for women, people of color,
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: for trans people, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, on and on, our
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: homes are our retreats from these contested public spaces. It's
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: a retreat from getting hollered at on the street by
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: people who are disgusting. And in the sharing economy, you know,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: someone else's home or car, even if you're paying for
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: it to use it, it's not necessarily a safe space.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: And she interviewed Dr Fiona Vera Gray of Durham University
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: in the UK, who has studied a lot about sexual harassment,
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: and she said that basically, when it comes to public spaces,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: women in particular are forced to moderate their desire for
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: freedom and safety. You end up restricting your own freedom
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: in order to feel safe. No one has to lock
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: you up, no one has to bar your door. You
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: feel that you have to you lock yourself up in
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: order to feel safe or to recover from having gone
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: out into these contested public spaces. And so Dr Vera
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: Gray was telling Kale about the so called just world hypothesis,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: and this is like a perfect encapsulation of the privileged
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: conversation it's the idea that the world is essentially a
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: just place and that if we just all come together
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: and share, it's going to be mutually beneficial for everyone.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: So she says, if you're a man who's been brought
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: up to see the world as a safe space, as
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: a fair space, a space that people can move and
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: interact in freely, then you'll have that view. And the
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: only thing I would change, and that quote is a
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: white man, because if we're talking about safe public spaces,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: that does not apply to African American men no at all.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: So it seems like the band aid that we're sort
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: of slaping on this issue as quickly as possible because
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: the sharing economy is growing as fast as it possibly
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: can because billions of dollars. Is this issue of self
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: segregation like the noir BnB that we've already talked about
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: that Stefan Grant started. And then in terms of gender,
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: there's been so much media attention around UH services like
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Chariot for Women and she Taxis, which are just two
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: of the women only rides share services that have been
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: launched directly in response to sexual assault and sexual discrimination complaints. UH.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: They exist abroad as well. There's some in India. In
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: France you have Blah block Car, which is just acute founding,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: you know service that also allows women to request female drivers.
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: But there's been a lot of write ups too about
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: very trollish men who are launching sexual discrimination complaints against
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: women only rideshare things, because that's I mean, and and
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: that's awful and also goes to the point that while
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: these services might be necessary, they are not a fix,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: you know, until until we're willing to get at the
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: root of the problem and take action on that um
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: and this. And the solution is not also to just
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: tell the gig worker to get a better job. You
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: hear that all the time. Oh well, you're complaining, Just
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: get a better jo. You hear that with everything in
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: the economy, Just get a better job, Just get a
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: better job. Like it's so about privilege, talk about privilege.
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: And you have to keep in mind too with things
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: like this, a lot of the people who are working
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: in this economy are working in it to supplement an
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: income already. So maybe they're not making enough money, maybe
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: they're literally just trying to provide for their children, and
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: they've also perhaps had to drop out of the traditional
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: economy because our system is so jacked when it comes
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: to things like childcare. So we do have thankfully advocates
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: who are tirelessly working on this, including the Now Employment
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: Law Project that really wants to restructure the ten contractor
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: relationship to offer workers greater protection. And they have proposed
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: a whole model for this. Yeah, so they say that
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: we should expand the statutory employee framework. This is basically
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: where contractors are considered actual workers for certain regulatory purposes
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: like tax laws. Uh. And this would provide quote unquote
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: portable benefits and policymakers would directly require companies that use
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: these ten ninety nine workers to abide by labor standards
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: like the minimum wage, to pay into Social Security and
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: state workers comp and unemployment insurance funds. So basically like,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: not only in relation to the gig economy, but in general,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: to treat workers people in this country who maybe we're
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: criticizing them because you're part of the system. You're you're
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: not you're not contributing to America. And it's like, well, um,
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: let's treat all of our workers then as humans who
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: deserve dignity and respect and to be able to provide
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: for their families and help is also help. The National
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Employment Law Project now also wants to see an avenue
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: for on demand contractors to be able to organize and
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: collectively bargain around labor conditions. Basically, it's the same song
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: and dance we've seen forever of like, hey, you know
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: what helps people who are marginalized and voiceless unions. I mean,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: regardless of your opinion on unions, that's generally what helps
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: working conditions. Yeah, labor organizing, and that's how we've gotten
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: all of the workers rights that people are worried. But
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: sharing economy is eroding. Yeah, And I mean you've got Seattle,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: which is planning to give rideshare workers the legal right
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: to collectively bargain. And I mean that that's just one effort.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there are many others in many other cities
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: across the world. But yeah, I mean it's so great
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: to be able to press the button and have my
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: groceries delivered or have someone show up to take me
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: to the airport. But I mean there is so much
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: more wrapped up in that, because it's kind of like, um,
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: when you talk about public assistance and people are like, uh,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: you know, I hate that people are dependent on this
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: thing entitlement, entitlement, and it's the kind of thing of like, um,
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: you know, people who are working for these gig economy apps,
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: these sharing economy apps are trying to contribute to society.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: They are trying to make a living wage and support
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: themselves and potentially their families. Um, But in the same
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: time they're like trapped in this vortex of like not
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: making enough money, not having protections. Because the convenience factor
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: applies not only to us consumers clicking you know, the
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: the app and instantly having whatever we need right at
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: our fingertips, but also if you need some income there's
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: the the convenience factor of it too, where you can
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: you know, I think it does lower the barrier to
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: potentially making some money, which is very tempting. And unfortunately
• 56:08
  Speaker 1: there are too many instances, and I've heard this from
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: so many uber and lift drivers, particularly on my rides
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: home from the airport, because they're usually it's like the
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: longest time I'm in the car, and um, I always
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: try to talk to my driver's UM and I've heard
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: so many times just about what a hustle it is.
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: And for that reason, one another not to uh to
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: seem like I'm sponsored by Lift. But one thing I
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: do like about Lift is that you can tip your
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: drivers and if you have a good driver, tip your driver,
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: seriously tip your driver. Um because a good karma, just
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: like being a good human. And be they're not you know,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: they're not making a lot of money, um so a
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: lot of the time. So the main takeaway of all
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: of this is the technology terrific, the potential incredible. But
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: if we want to truly make it inclusive, we have
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: to truly make it inclusive. You know, inclusivity is not
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: limited to convenience. Yeah, and I think you know, one
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: thing I was thinking of when we were discussing like
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: racist hosts on Airbnb for instance, um or other you know,
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: property rental places. I think there is an attitude that like, well,
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: I'm a human with a space to rent, so I
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: have the right to get on Airbnb and rent it
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: to whoever I choose and like to an extent. Yeah,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: but there's nothing stopping I mean, Airbnb has launched all
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: of these anti discrimination efforts. There's nothing stopping Airbnb from
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: being like, you know what, we just really don't want
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: you here if you're such an exclusive renter. Oh yeah,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, and it sounds like they've done that with
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: for instance, with the woman who turned away the trans woman. Yeah. Well,
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: I guess what I'm trying to say is like, and
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: I think all the things are positive, but I guess
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is making it way more
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: clear upfront of like maybe we just don't want you
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: here if you're going to be racist, or perhaps if
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: you are using it just to like lure women or something. Well,
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: it sounds like in that situation we are really mixing
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: up accessibility and inclusivity. You know, just because it might
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: be really easy to access and use doesn't mean that
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: the barrier of entry is as low for every body.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: You know, just because you can access an app doesn't
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: mean you really can access safely the service. So I
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: am so sure that there are a lot of people
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: listening to this who have a lot to say. Um,
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: and we want to hear about this from all ends
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: of the share economy, whether you are an employee, a customer,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: whether you are a full fledged handy lift, uber, corporate
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: impoll a. Um, because this is such a major issue.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: This isn't going anywhere, nor are we proposing that it should.
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: But UM, there are definitely ways that already in its
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: infancy relatively can be reformed. So mom Stuff at how
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: stuff works dot com is where you can send all
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: of your emails. You can also tweet us at mom
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: stuff podcasts or messages on Facebook. And we've got a
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: couple of messages to share with you when we come
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. All right, Well, I
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: have a letter here from Megan in response to our
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: Mad Women Women in Advertising two parter. Uh, she said,
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: I was beyond excited to see that you did a
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: two part series on women in advertising. I majored in
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: advertising in college with the dream of becoming a creative director. However,
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: I quickly learned how far that career path is, especially
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: for women. I interned in the creative department of an
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: advertise using agency as a copywriter my junior year of college.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Even though several women worked at the agency, everyone in
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: the creative department was male, except for one of the
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: copywriters and an art director. However, both of these women
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: seemed to fit in better with the guys than me.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: I wore dresses and makeup often because I liked to.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: I was told by a male creative director that I
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: dressed up too much, even though I didn't look much
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: different from the women in other departments. My senior year,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: I applied to be the creative director from my classes
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: advertising capstone project. Since I was the only applicant with
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: experience working in a creative department and an ad agency,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: I felt confident that I would get the position. However,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: I lost out to the only guy who applied. Later,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: this guy would say to his team of all women,
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: women just aren't as creative and women can't be funny.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: I'm not even kidding. This was a twenty two year old,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: college educated man saying blatantly sexist remarks to his team
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: of women, and I was the only one who ever
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 1: stood up to him. Unfortunately, this was not the end
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: of my experience of sexism in my advertising career. I
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: once had an informal interview with a male creative director who,
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: after ten minutes told me that he didn't really see
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: me as a creative and that I should work in
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: the typically female dominated account services as an introvert. I
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: never once considered account services, but I guess the way
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: I looked made this particular creative director. I think I'd
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: be a great fit. Eventually, I gave up on trying
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: to make it as a creative in an AD agency
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: because I felt like I would never be the right
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: personality fit and I wasn't willing to sacrifice who I
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: am for my career. Today, I work as a marketing
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: manager for an in house marketing team. I get to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: do a little bit of everything, from creative to research
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: to analytics. Currently, my team is made up of women,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: and I have to brag that it is the most
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: creative and productive AD team I've ever worked with. Sometimes
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: I do miss parts of the ad agency life, like
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: free beer and late night brainstorming sessions. But what I
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: like better is working somewhere that I feel appreciated and respected,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: and I don't think I would have experienced that in
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: most agencies if I'd stayed on the path to become
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: a creative director. Oh boy, Megan, Well, I'm glad you
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: found somewhere that makes you happy. Thanks for writing. So
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Amy with a positive
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: story about being a woman in the ad industry. She writes,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: I'm a VP director at a large media agency, the
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: mom of a three year old and a one year old,
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: as well as having a spouse who works full time
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: in marketing too. To say my life as tactic is
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: an understatement. I spent the first eight years of my
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: career in the same department run by the same woman
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: whom I eventually reported to as a working mom herself.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: She made it her mission to look after, challenge and
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: mentor women and moms on her team. When I announced
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: that I was pregnant with my first we began informal
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: working mom lessons once a month to discuss and prepare
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: for how my life would change and how to manage
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: my career and ambitions Accordingly. I was actually coached and
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: told that you've proven yourself to us by her and others,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: which gave me the confidence to push for flexibility. I
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: needed my team and clients know that unless something critical
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: is going on, I'm unavailable from five ish to eight
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: dish while I pick up feed and play with my kids.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: Send me whatever you need and you'll have a response
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 1: by the time you're in in the morning. I feel
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: empowered to do is thanks to this old boss slash
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: mentor and watching other working moms and mentors around me
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: leave for the train at five or go on a
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: kid's field trip and still earn VP and s VP titles.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: They are countless women I know who will name this
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: woman as a key reason they remain in the industry today.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: I'll also note that four out of the five years
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I've been working entirely remotely, when my husband's job required
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: us to move to Chicago, I've been able to continue
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: working for this company in other cities. Even better, I'm
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: not the only person doing this, and we have a
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: few people all over the country who, for some reason
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: or another, are working from home. We've also set up
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: a working parents group note parents not moms, where moms
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: and dads can identify working parent mentors, ask for advice,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: even if it's just recipes, kids will eat and generally
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: support each other in demanding jobs. Advertising is still tough
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: on women and moms. Just last night, I had to
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: hide in my bedroom and take a six pm call
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: with senior clients while my kids banked on the door
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: saying they wanted mommy to make dinner and not daddy.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: And that sucks. And there definitely times I hate the
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: inflexibility that client services lead to. But in the media
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: agency world, we also have to make money by being
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: perpetually understaffed, so things are not all Rosie. However, I
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: did want to paint a picture of my extremely positive
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: experience as a woman and mother in the industry, and Amy,
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing that. That's so good
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: to hear and also just such a perfect case study
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: of women supporting other women, parents supporting other parents in
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: the workplace and we need more of it. So if
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: you have stories to share with us, mom stuff at
• 1:04:34
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• 1:04:37
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• 1:04:38
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• 1:04:41
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• 1:04:44
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• 1:04:47
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• 1:04:56
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