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Podcast: Behind the Scenes: Pursue Wisdom from Above; (James 3:13-4:10) · North Raleigh United Methodist Church Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Good day, and welcome to North Raleigh United Methodist Church behind the scenes podcast, where we sit down weekly and talk about this week's scripture and sermon.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Kevin Van Hall.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: I serve as your moderator, and joining me today is one of the senior pastors here at North Raleigh, Kevin Johnson.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Kevin.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Hey there, Kevin.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's good to see you.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's good to be back.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize for uh scheduling conflicts for the last two weeks.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have not been on the air.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: And some of the people have mentioned that to me saying, Where does is the podcast?
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is it gone?
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: No, it took uh unfortunate uh hiatus for a short unscheduled.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: Didn't mean uh, when when you're you know like the late night talk show hosts, they go on the they go on like a week or two breaks sometimes.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like you, Kevin.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, sometimes the big shot like you've got to take a little take a little hiatus.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_02: Well, actually, I wish it was a vacation.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh some other sometimes life just gets in the way.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: That's all right.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and things and things happen, uh scheduling things uh come up, and um we gotta take care of our loved ones and things like that.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I apologize for that.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: We're starting back up at the perfect time to wrap up this series on James.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: Last time we spoke, um Doers were greater than hearers.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And in this James series of James Practical Guide to Faith, uh we've also talked about God has no favorites and watch your mouth, which would have been some great podcasts that I'd made it.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: But especially if you've got to beep out some things, yeah.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but we're back.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna talk about today's and continuing with James, wrapping up our little um study in series on James, pursue wisdom from above.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I also do want to ask for a little bit of perspective of of summaring, uh summarizing uh James' letter and his whole book as a whole, it's a little bit different from the other ones.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's a lot more about practical, like you said, practical guide to faith.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit more about doing versus just about believing.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Paul's a lot about trying to convince people and teach people about Jesus.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: James is trying to convince people, okay, Jesus didn't just uh tell us to believe in him, he left us instructions of how we're supposed to be.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we were talking a little bit before this.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: The I I love that Paul, that his writings and that James are both in here, right?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And um I think to some degree James is giving you a picture of like how do we live out this following Jesus thing without even referring that much to the person and work of Jesus throughout the whole book.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: There's very, there's not a ton that lays out specifics about theology, about who Jesus is or anything like that in this book.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, the teaching falls in line with what Jesus teaches, right?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's almost like this presumed, I I hesitate to even call James a letter, right?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's not really letter form.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's almost like we're getting a mix of sermon material or you know, like wisdom rants or something from James.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: And and he's because because we don't have the specificities of a certain faith community that we have in some of Paul's letters, or or we don't have uh the greeting about who it's to, like we do in some of them, um, and and or the close and we have that it's from James to the twelve tribes scattered, right?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: So that's it.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: So he's saying it's it's a very general audience in what he's writing.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's just interesting in that way.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do know that at the time of this uh writing, James is in charge of the church in Jerusalem, where Paul was was heading out and doing his mission work and was coming back in in different areas with write letters back to some of the places that he had visited.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: James is still addressing all the faithful there that are still in Jerusalem, probably half, one reminding them of what they had had heard and taught, and two um on to those that were still not believing in him.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so a little bit of difference.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned earlier before we started that sometimes a lot of people want to think it's James uh versus Paul.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: We know they had a small little disagreement about some uh circumcision stuff uh in both of their early ministries, but it wasn't never a Paul against James, and it's not like they have different points of view, of they just come from at it from different angles.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that's hugely important.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that I can't remember if we talked in in our first week about it, a little bit about Protestantism's kind of lifelong problem with James.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: So Martin Luther cut it out of his Bible.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um he called it an Epistle of Straw that he wanted to burn um because he thought it sounded so works righteousness-based.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh and and what Martin Luther, how Martin Luther read Paul was essentially reading Paul only for Luther's take as grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that was Luther's takeaway.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um essentially, like Paul is the centerpiece.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so so you see that happen then in Protestantism after that, where Romans kind of becomes the most important book of the Bible for a lot of Protestant traditions, how they also then interpret certain verses within that to kind of describe a way of salvation, following a pathway through Romans.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um I feel like it shortchanges Paul as well, that kind of reading.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that's what Luther intended to do from the get-go, but that's what followers of him kind of simplified later.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it created, he ended up creating like a an argument that that James is not as valid of a of a New Testament work as Paul's letters, for instance, put putting it against Galatians or Ephesians or something like that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny because Paul, it's not like Paul was just strictly about faith.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Paul also mentioned how people were acting.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh hatred towards one another, but stop it.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh love your brother.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: He he was very much in stop with the uh giving in to the indulgences of the flesh.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh he talks about the fruit of the spirits and how we're supposed to.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't like Paul didn't ever mention how we were supposed to be acting.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: He but he did was trying to convert a lot more people in believing.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think this is what's important is that they're coming from different vantage points, and so it's good we have both of them.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's great.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: In the same way that it's good we have four gospels.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we get different vantage points.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: And true.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's not, it doesn't have to be we're just such an either-or type of people, uh, rather than like, why can't it be both Paul and James?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: And there's no reason to say, I mean, I think what's great about the Christian tradition is that it's managed to hold all these things together in scripture.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's also managed to hold seeming contradictions together in scripture and be able to handle it.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's I think that's part of the gift of the tradition.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we're going to continue in James today.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we're going to be in uh chapters, uh at the end of chapter three and the beginning of chapter four.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: But how about a word of prayer before we read?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh Lord God of wisdom, we pray that you would open us up to your wisdom for us today.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: We pray for your guidance as we talk together, and for um the work of your spirit to be in us as we study your word and as we think about how it applies to our lives.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: In Christ's name we pray.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Amen.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: So wisdom.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Paul uh James says there's two kinds of wisdom from above and not from above.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And how do we tell the difference?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have a hard time with it.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you can uh explain it to it as we read uh 313.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna break it up and read uh 3 uh 13 through 18.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Are any of you wise and understanding?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Show that your actions are good with a humble lifestyle that comes from wisdom.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: However, if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambitions in your heart, then stop bragging and living in ways that deny the truth.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, instead it is from the earth, natural and demonic.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Wherever there is jealousy and selfish ambition, there is disorder and everything that is evil.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: What of the wisdom from above?
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: First it is pure and then peaceful, gentle, obedient, filled with mercy and good actions, fair and genuine.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Those who make peace sow the seeds of justice by their peaceful acts.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: So we hear a little bit of um you mentioned it earlier, fruit of the spirit, almost.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's really interesting.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what is the wisdom from above like, verse 17?
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: First, it is pure, then peaceful, gentle, obedient, filled with mercy and good actions, fair and genuine.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: If if we closed our eyes and imagined it's Paul talking, it sure sounds a lot like some of the features of Galatians 5.22, where he lays out the fruit of the spirit.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we have peace, gentle, um, good.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, fair and genuine aren't exactly in there, but but it seems like the evidence that this wisdom from above has characteristics and qualities that match that of the fruit of the spirit or the spirit's growth within us.
• 10:10
  unknown: Yeah.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just before that, he mentions uh self-ambition, uh bitterness, and the um these things uh do not uh not the wisdom from above.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: There I don't even classify that as wisdom.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's just bad behavior.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so I I do wonder, I think that brings an interesting place to talk about wisdom, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I wonder if James is actually, by utilizing the category of wisdom, if he's actually going after an opponent that we can't see here.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll probably get more of this when I do some more deeper study, but but if there were people claiming wisdom, but that wisdom was for themselves or for their own gain, a lot of times, and it depends on when exactly James is written, some of these were called were were the Gnostics who they're writing against, and those Gnostic folks really prided themselves on having like a secret special wisdom.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so it would not surprise me if this is like a direct counter to Gnostic teaching.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um the word Gnostic comes from Gnosis, G-N-O-S-I-S.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of it's another word for wisdom or or knowledge, knowledge.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, obviously, yeah.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so there is like this special wisdom that one could grasp.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that James may be going after that here.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have complete like that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's me.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it makes sense to me.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, uh, because there, like you said, in some of the other uh New Testament writings, they are fighting Gnosticism.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Paul mentions it, John mentions it.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: There's this as soon as they start going out and preaching some of these things in the church, others say, Well, I know even more the stuff, but it's always a way of putting oneself above others.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you can get that selfish ambition um from, um, claiming that um that you're above or greater than others.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we're getting warned that from James that that doesn't come from above.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I think I think part of the the the what's interesting with this wisdom that that James is talking about is that for James, wisdom affects the community.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so wisdom is about the not just my own personal wisdom, but it's also for the sake of the community, and we'll we'll get that even more in the next section.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but this idea that if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition, that's the opposite of this wisdom from above.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I and I think that jealousy and selfish ambition are are the ways in which we know if this wisdom is the wisdom from above.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think maybe when when you said is that really wisdom, the wisdom from from below, I think it's almost tongue-in-cheek, maybe how James is saying it.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: It's a little bit like um like when Paul in 2 Corinthians is going to talk about you know the foolishness of the world or the wisdom, you know, he he compares foolishness and wisdom in that way, and he he talks about um the foolishness of Christ's teaching and and kind of mixes mixes those words up on purpose, right?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so I do think that there's some similarities there um to that.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: So he wants to let us know that that uh selfish ambition and way of thinking is not um the true wisdom.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: The true wisdom actually being um that you're a peacemaker, it's this year, and so is peace and harvest, and is and is humble.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you have to think, well, what is your intentions?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we can always we've already learned that you could join judge someone by the fruits of their labor or their not just what they say.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And James is really big on let's see what you've put your put your faith in the right.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well that's that's why verse 18 is really important, right?
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because if this is about the community, then it's about peacemaking within the community.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a so so James is about not uh not just um me having some type of knowledge or wisdom for myself, but it's uh he seems to be saying there's there's issues within the community that are driving a wedge between people and those who have wisdom are making peace.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then he's you know he says I mean those who make peace sow the seeds of justice by their peaceful acts.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: So so there's something within this wisdom from above that is literally seeking this peace between one another uh and within the within the community in ways that it in ways that are far different than a selfish ambition or or envy.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, again, put it in perspective at this time of uh period that you had the the faithful that were mainly Jewish converts there in Jerusalem that still believed in the laws and the ways that were taught by Moses, where you even had Paul saying we're not burdened by the yoke of these these laws anymore.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to be circumcised to be accepted.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Uh anybody, you can go into a gentile's house and they can be baptized.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: Peter finds this out, and you can start eating other things.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure there's this huge class of division going, no.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: And are you, like you said, are you creating peace or are you creating division?
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: So very uh hard, different times I can imagine uh back in the day versus in our time of of accepting Christ is a little bit more easy growing up around so many other Christians that already believe.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So much in a way that you do.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: So James is trying to um, I don't know, impart some of his own wisdom on ourselves.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he continues on uh with uh chapter four.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: So let's uh go for uh chapter four, verses one through ten.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is the source of conflict among you?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: What is the source of your disputes?
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't they come from your cravings that are at war in your own lives?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: You long for something you don't have, so you commit murder.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: You are jealous for something you can't get, so you struggle and fight.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have because you don't ask.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: You ask and don't have because you ask with evil intentions to waste it on your own cravings.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: You unfaithful people, don't you know that friendship with the world means hostility toward God?
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So whoever wants to be the world's friend becomes God's enemy.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Or do you suppose that Scripture is meaningless?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: Doesn't God long for our faithfulness in the life He has given to us?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: But He gives us more grace.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's why it says, God stands against the proud but favors the humble.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Therefore submit to God.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_02: Resist the devil, and he will run away from you.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Come near to God, and he will come near to you.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Wash your hands, you sinners, purify your hearts, you double-minded.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Cry out in sorrow, mourn, and weep.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Let your laughter become mourning, and your joy become sadness.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_02: Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking the first part, it sounds almost a little bit like Paul through the Spirit.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: The second part sounds a lot like Jesus' uh ch chastising the Pharisees, uh, my book, you adulterous generation.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: This is words that uh you hear Jesus using.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: Trying to I mean, there's there's definitely a put back in your in your in your place, you're quarreling over things that are you're not supposed to be worried about, concerned about.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So he steps away from wisdom a little bit there, and he goes into back into the conduct of being humble and living for God versus yourself.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the selfishness and self-ambition must have been a huge problem back then.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it must have been a problem, and I do wonder, like, this is where the community piece um comes in, right?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the the question becomes you know, this wisdom from below is being described as like a humanistic self-interest, where the human community is either a means to selfish ends, right?
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I get what I want, I'm in community with people to achieve the things I want, or the human community is an obstacle to fulfillment.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: So in other words, if if life is a zero-sum game, well then I gotta get ahead to get the things that I want so that I can get mine, which maybe then this has a little bit more real life modern day uh parallels uh to basically the the rules of our society and of and of capitalism and and things like it, right?
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: And of consumerism, where you know the have's gonna have more and get more and grasp for more.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I do I think that that's part of the issue here too, is that there's um there's there's there's some reality to some division within this community happening uh where selfishness is winning the day.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and he's trying to combat that with this invitation to this wisdom from above, um where he's saying, hey, God gives all good gifts essentially in the first three verses there.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the problem is you don't have something, you you'll murder someone else for it.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_02: You're jealous for something, you struggle and fight with someone, and you don't have because you don't ask for it.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if you ask in you don't have it, it's because you ask with evil intentions.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's your per it it's it's it's not necessarily a description of wisdom, or it's completely a description of this wisdom from below in the first three verses.
• 20:29
  unknown: Right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then he continues, you know, this idea that friendship with the world means hostility toward God.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: So whoever wants to be the world's friend becomes God's enemy.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think this is important to say here this idea of like friendship with the world.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that James here is calling for like sectarianism or uh retreating from the ways of the world completely, right?
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: So so meaning a life of monks in a monastery or nuns in a convent type of thing.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um that would that would be a very literal read of verse four, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Friendship with the world is enmity towards God, so hey, let's let's divorce ourselves completely from the world, let's not deal with it and be completely separated off.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's what James is calling to.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think he is though saying, what is your priority?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: What what you know, doesn't God long for faithfulness in the life he has given to us, uh, is what he asks in verse five, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Is he saying are are we faithful towards the goals of this whether it's this world or another way to frame is like fleshly desires and things?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's sometimes Paul pits flesh against spirit in this way, in ways that we don't always talk.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I think it's an important consideration for us.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um we don't so it's not saying, hey avoid the world at all costs, you know, throw out your TV, you know, go live like an Amish person.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's not necessarily the call.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe for some it is.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but uh but rather the priorities of the world.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like we have to live Christians should live with distinct priorities.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's curious that they use this world word world versus possessions or material things, such as they they equate it as world, and then it can be interpreted in the way you're talking about is then I have to separate myself from everything.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: We've heard this same you have to hate this world.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: And because you don't otherwise you want to stay in this world.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to stay in this world, you're supposed to hate this world, you want to so again it sounds almost a little bit like Jesus and Paul here.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Very much so.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: The same message is being put forth in the simply better way, in the sense of you need to humble yourself before God, and you're not gonna get what you're asking for because um God, if you had the wisdom from abud, you wouldn't be in the in the first place.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it just don't, you know, necessarily blame God for you're not getting uh your prayers.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: What are you asking for?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And he pretty much slams your adulterous people.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's pretty much uh calling everybody out there, isn't he?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: So much, so many times that you read the scripture and it's timeless.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: It applied back then, it applies today.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: Are things ever going to change?
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh when Jesus comes back, yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: And beyond that, probably not.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um But is that the sole goal?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Is this salvation, or is are we supposed to be changing here while we're here on earth and trying to make things better and love one another here?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Or are we just here for waiting for Jesus' to return?
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, I mean I think I think we're definitely called to I I think we're called to reveal heaven on earth and to and to make a change here now.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, and to usher in God's kingdom.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, so I'm I'm far from an escapist when it comes to thinking about what the purpose of our lives are.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I'm I'm just also a little bit of a realist in that these are the same pro the reason why scripture is timeless is because people are people.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think that's what's fascinating for us when reading, whether it's you read historical fiction from 400 years ago and you're like, well, that's the same problems we have today.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Or you're reading or you're reading scripture from 2,000 years ago and you're saying, well, that's the same.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we we we got different window dressings on it, but it's the same stuff and the same struggles uh that exist, right?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's what makes scripture timeless.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so I do yeah, I don't mean to be flippant saying that it's until Jesus comes back, it's just the reality.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, and yes, I believe that we are called um to try to make God's kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven, or at least we don't make it, but we try to reveal where God's doing that work.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and like we're supposed to sow seeds of peace.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: And uh here we are over the last hundred years sowing a lot of seeds of war, right?
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean as as a human people, we're not doing too great at that.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so so I think I think that there's when we look at like kind of a broad scale, um there's a lot there there there's a lot of um there's a lot to be desired in terms of how we are how we are living.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I think if we looked at the ways of the goals of the flesh, like we would say, or or or friendship with the world, well, I mean, things are looking pretty good.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, we have a lot more stuff than we had a hundred years ago.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we're a lot wealthier than we were a hundred years ago, at least in this country, and people listening to this podcast on their phone in their car, right?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, but the things change, but the priorities don't.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of uh a bunch of uh gold uh rings and chalices and a hundred sheep and camels, sure.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's a it's a fancy car, uh a nice house.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a second house or it's uh whatever.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: But technology is supposed to fix all those things.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Communication was supposed to keep us from going from war because you could pick up the phone and call your adversary before you go to just jump off the wall.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Did it change?
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Did it yeah, no, now we're just gonna create things that kill each other and thus, right?
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: So it's all good.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um everything's great.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: So a little sarcasm there.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, AI, they uh the people that are selling us on AI, uh we're going off subject, don't want to, are are telling us that it's gonna be great and we're never gonna really know.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: But if it was created by us, I have a good idea that it's probably not gonna be as great as everyone thinks it'd be.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, I think there's places for all of these things, right?
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, to some degree technology is a tool, right?
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And we can use it for good or ill, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: So uh a couple weeks ago I needed a spreadsheet made for something that would have taken me 20 minutes, and AI made it for me in about 10 seconds.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_02: And did I appreciate that at the time?
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_02: Did it did it hurt anyone in the process?
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't really think so, right?
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I think there's plenty of fine times for such applications, but I don't think that's the thing we're talking about.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: No, we're talking about um we are supposed to be submitting ourselves to God and remaining humble.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to um God to come nearer to you, why don't you come nearer to God and uh stop putting things between yourself and God, i.e., your selfish ambition um and your worldly things.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's interesting.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: The last the last four verses, I would I once in a while in James, it's sort of like he, it's it's sort of like when you catch the tail end of of Paul once in a while, where it's like, hey, I'm gonna tell you this and this and this and this, and they're all related, but you know, submit to God, resist the devil, he will run away from you.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Come near to God and he will come near to you.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: Wash out your yeah, it's almost it's almost like a preacher getting going towards the end, right?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: Cry out in sorrow, mourn and weep.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let your laughter become mourning and your joy become sadness.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like that's the rap.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: Humble yourselves before the Lord and he will lift you up, which is almost tying us back to the very beginning of the I mean, that's why this is a a section of scripture, to 313, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_02: Are any of you wise in understanding, show your actions are good with a humble heart or a humble lifestyle that comes from understanding at the end, you know, humble yourselves before the Lord and He will lift you up.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: So there's something here about placing ourselves under God, about humbling ourselves before God, uh, that is the that is oppositional to however the community was living James or however maybe we live sometimes today.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You can also I something popped in my head from a previous study we're doing right now, uh fear God, shun evil.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um is is literally almost an old testament way of looking at how God wanted you to be versus the New Testament way of love God, love your neighbor, and versus the other things.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: Still working on it, aren't we?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and well, I think that's interesting because it's really the same.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you know, this is it's really in verse six, it says this is why it says God stands against the proud but favors the humble.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: There's a there's a footnote there in in in your Bible, and it takes you to Proverbs 334.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: James might be the only New Testament text that quotes Proverbs, right?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: We get Paul quoting all sorts of scripture and alluding to it.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think Paul has one Proverbs quote.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in Romans, Paul might have 60-something allusions to the Old Testament, whether direct or direct quote.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: Paul's in Isaiah all the time, Paul's in Psalms all the time, and and and here we get James almost like a modern-day proverb, right?
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_02: He's he's it doesn't read just like a short proverb, but it in essence it's this wisdom of how to live.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um and and so I think what's hard is that this this passage is a good passage, but it's not as easy as our previous three weeks passages in terms of how to comprehend it and what to do with it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um so it's it's not as kind of it doesn't tie it up with a bow as much as maybe I'd like it to to end the series, like I would have written James differently, but I didn't.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Well, you could go on and continue with the uh chapter five at some other time, but it talks about uh uh the rich and the oppressors and still you know berating people for some of their um behavior.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: It is not the the nice loving uh finishing uh Yeah, but in a sense, right, we almost it's almost like after the taming the tongue stuff at the beginning of chapter three, it's almost like we we get into like four and five are almost a little bit different uh of a focus in the book than the first three chapters of the book.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and so so it's a little bit I just want to name that that if if we just read out loud this section today versus the previous few sections we've read from this text over this series, this is this is a little bit tougher of one.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: This requires more unpacking um than the the text Laura had this week, uh, which was essentially about taming the tongue and about the power of words, right?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: That anyone could understand that just upon hearing it.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um doing it is hard, sort of like the first week emphasis, right?
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: The the the doing of it is much harder than just the the knowing it.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well James does uh we don't have it in our in our study here discussion today, but James does finish chapter four, uh chapter four with verse 17.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anyone then who knows the good, he ought to do and doesn't do it since.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: So again, he emphasizes our behavior, our deeds, and um, and not just our faith.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um but he does go on later on and talks a little bit more about uh the faith.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: And he even uh at the end of uh chapter five uh even talks about Elijah.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh-huh.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and about the rain.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so um James is uh covers all the bases in a in a way.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um would you agree or not agree?
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: One of your one of your favorite books, least favorites, what do you think?
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's one of my favorite books.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it's fascinating.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: I every time I open it, I think there's something new um that that speaks to me.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_02: I I I I do love I as much as I love theologizing with Paul and stuff, there's something to me about like, hey, here's what it says, go do it.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_02: So I do think that practical part I really like uh of of James.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: And um yeah, and I and I honestly I think I think it's I think it's a little hidden, a little undervalued.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's what I've heard from people as they've spoken back to us during this series.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: I said, hey, I went and read James.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa, like that's real good.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And and like, I mean, and and not in a I I I've had at least five people say, hey, I went and read the whole book.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot there.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: There is and and James.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, so I I do think that if it opens some people up, that's great.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, and and and so I do.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I think there's tremendous value of that um in reading in reading this together.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I like James very much so.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's also I like it kind of straight to the point.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: He doesn't get really wordy.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And um he calls it as it is.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he sees it and he calls it how it is.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I I like that uh straightforward uh directness that James has in this book.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's gonna wrap up our uh podcast for today and uh the series on James and a practical guide to uh faith.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Come here, uh Kevin Preach this Sunday.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's gonna be talking about um the wisdom from above.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, and if you're unable to attend, uh you can catch the sermon online as it's posted along with his podcast, or watch the um live stream for the service as well.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: Next week, uh October is gonna be gone.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: We have one, this is our last weekend in October, and then it'll be November 1st and All Saints Sunday.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: So we look forward to that.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna have um, and it's literally all it's November 1st is All Saints Day, right?
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's we we will celebrate the saints who have died within the life of our congregation this year, but also all the saints, right?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: So so anyone who has died in our lives that we remember, and we remember the great communion of the saints across time and across places.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And so um that'll be a wonderful, wonderful day together um to celebrate and to remember how we are connected with all who have faithfully lived and died.
• 35:37
  unknown: Yeah.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Hope you can join us.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: So until next week, we're gonna sign off now.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: May the love of Christ be with you always.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: Goodbye, everyone.