Latest / Pod Save America / “Kyle Rittenhouse, Right-Wing Hero.”

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“Kyle Rittenhouse, Right-Wing Hero.” · Pod Save America

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The Supreme Court has had a busy summer loosening gun
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: restrictions in states, overturning Roe v. Wade, and severely threatening
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: our Miranda rights. I'm Leah Lippman, and each week on
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Strict Scrutiny, I'm joined by my co-hosts and fellow law professors,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Melissa Murray and Kate Shaw, to break down the latest
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: headlines and the biggest legal questions facing our country. It's
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: more important than ever to understand the repercussions of these
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Supreme Court decisions and what we can do to fight
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: back in the upcoming midterm elections. Listen to new episodes
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: of Strict Scrutiny every Monday, wherever you get your podcasts.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Levitt.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: On today's pod, the White House notches some wins while
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Democrats debate the party's challenges. Professor Melissa Murray joins to
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: talk about the verdict in the Kyle Rittenhouse case. And
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris's 85-minute presidency spawned enough takes to fill two terms.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: But first, some fun news. On Tuesday, December 7th, Crooked
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: will be looking back on 2021 with a special livestream
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: event we're calling What a Year. What a Year. It
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: will include your favorite Crooked hosts, special guests, and more
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: to help you process all the joys, follies, and complete
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: and total meltdowns of this past year. We'll also be
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: raising money for our No Off Years Fund to help
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: register voters in all the most important swing states ahead
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: of the midterms. So join us live for the What
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: A Year live stream on Tuesday, December 7th at 5 p.m. Pacific,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: 8 p.m. Eastern. To RSVP, head to crooked.com slash whatayear.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: All right, let's get to the news. As we head
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: into Thanksgiving, there are new reasons for Democrats to be
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: optimistic and reasons for Democrats to keep being ourselves. Last
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: week began with President Biden signing a bipartisan jobs and
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: infrastructure bill and ended with House Democrats passing the rest
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: of his economic plan, which would use higher taxes on
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: the rich and big corporations to fight climate change and
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: lower the cost of health care, child care and education.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: The administration has also now authorized booster shots for everyone
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: and has purchased 10 million doses of the new COVID
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: antiviral pill for when that gets authorized. And there are
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: headlines everywhere that global supply chain issues are starting to improve.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: On the other hand... Prices are still high. COVID cases
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: are rising again. Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema get a
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: final say on Build Back Better. And there's a new
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: round of Democratic infighting over the party's current political predicament.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: But let's start with the case for optimism. Tommy, how
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: are you feeling about all the good news from last week?
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: How am I feeling about all the good news?
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: I would say medium to not good.
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: Medium to not good. Is that okay? Is that enough?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Are we allowed to be honest? Of course. This is
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America. We never tell a lie. Do you
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: want me to start over and be performatively happy?
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: Baghdad, Bobbitt.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: We're cutting through the BS here. Cutting through the BS.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: Pelosi and Biden deserve a ton of credit for getting
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: the economic bill passed in the House. If it becomes law,
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: it will invest in clean energy and universal pre-K and
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: cheaper prescription drugs. There's a lot of massive important things
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: in there. I'm just worried about when this bill gets
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: into the the Senate and the performatively moderate hands of
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin, as you mentioned, like God
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: knows what pound of flesh they'll want.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: But the COVID news is good. Yeah.
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: I'm glad everyone can get boosted. I'm glad that there
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: are now pills you can take if you don't want
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: to get a booster. I still worry that the problem
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: is people won't get vaccinated and I'm not entirely sure
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: what we do about that.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So supply chain good, John, right?
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: I saw a headline that said easing of supply chain
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: choke points.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: Was part of a Wall Street Journal headline. That's a
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: It's a good thing, I guess. I don't know.
• 3:51
  Speaker 4: Remember when the supply chain was just funny because that
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: fucking barge was in the Suez Canal?
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Not anymore. Remember those good old days? Yeah. I
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: forgot about the barge. Going down to the L.A. port
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: and hauling boxes himself. I don't know. I think the
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: best news of all of that is the boosters and
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: the COVID pill.
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: Here's the thing.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden was fucking right in September. Dr. Anthony Fauci
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: was fucking right in September. Yeah.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I went on this rant Thursday.
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  Speaker 3: I know.
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: And I knew you did.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: And I wanted to go further. These fucking pointy headed
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: public health fucking dipshits have everybody lining up right before
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: Thanksgiving to get a booster they should have been allowed
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: to get in fucking September. They are despicable. Despicable.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: I can listen to Steve Bannon's podcast all the time.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: Look, I'm just here living in the fucking light that
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: science has shown on us. Unbelievable, despicable behavior.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: It's unfortunate. It's unfortunate that that happened. And many public
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: health experts and scientists were on the side of the
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: Biden administration. You bet they were. You bet they were.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: In fact, in fact, I think most of them were.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: But again, the vocal minority is what we heard about
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: in the press.
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  Speaker 1: Sorry.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I don't want to do this again. I don't
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: do this again. But I still, and look, Goolsbee said
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: this to Tommy and I last week, like most of
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: the economic problems we're facing, most of the sour national
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: mood is being caused by the pandemic still. And we
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: get through this winter and, you know, we're seeing a
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: rise in cases. Unfortunately, it's the winter. This thing is seasonal.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: We know that now. But with boosters getting rolled out
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: to everyone, with vaccines going to kids between five and 11,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: hopefully the vaccines are approved for kids six months to, uh,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: five next, uh, early 2022, I think Fauci said recently,
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: once we get all that done and we hopefully get
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: through this winter surge, like that's getting us closer to
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: the day where we can actually start treating COVID like
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: the flu. Like that's where we'll hopefully be in early
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: 22 with all of these new tools in the toolbox. Yeah.
• 5:56
  Speaker 3: Plus the antiviral pill.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: And expanding the vaccinations to kids.
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, although I'll just tell you guys, I went to
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: a football game last night. I saw the Steelers play
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: the Chargers at SoFi Stadium with about 65,000 of my
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: closest friends all in one arena.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: That is enclosed.
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: So I think a lot of people are already treating
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: COVID like it's not a thing at all.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is part of the problem. That is very
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: much true. But here we are. That is very much true.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: But yet the supply chain problems and all that kind
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: of stuff, it's tough. We're still climbing out of it.
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: The Washington Post reported that a bunch of outside advisors
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: are pitching the Biden team on reframing inflation as being
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: about greedy corporations, which I think was Dan's pitch last week.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: So that's smart. It's accurate. And hopefully that will work too. Yeah,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: they started it with the oil companies. Yeah, the oil
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: company letter. And now they're going on. I mean, you
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: mentioned this, Tommy. Let's talk about the build back better
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: heads to the Senate. Manchin and Sinema have been fairly
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: quiet so far. I don't know. Lovett, how confident are
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: you feeling about this?
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: You know, it was interesting what Elizabeth Warren said to you,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: because it's actually a reversal of where we were a
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: few months ago. A few months ago, it was, hey,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: Manchin's at the table, but we have no idea what
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: Kyrsten Sinema wants. And it sounds like that's changed a bit.
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: Now she just has him like wandering around kind of
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: lost in the grocery store.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: It was a very funny. Well, it's that she's at
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: least specific, but like she might be annoying in what
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: she wants, but she's being specific privately about what she wants,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: even though she's not doing it publicly. While Manchin is
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: just like every time you get him, he's like, oh,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I'm worried about inflation.
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 4: Although I guess for a long time when we were
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: yelling at Manchin for not being specific. Chuck Schumer was
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: sitting on a detailed memo outlining all of his concerns
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: in detail that had just been hidden from us.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks for the heads up, Chuck.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Oops.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, look, I mean, I'm hopeful that, and again,
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: what can you do but be hopeful, that the Congressional
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: Budget Office score, outside economists all saying it's not going
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: to add to the deficit or inflation, maybe that will
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: help Joe Manchin a little bit. Every moderate in the House,
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: every centrist in the House, supported this bill, except for
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: Jared Golden. And for Jared Golden, it was mainly about
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: the salt provisions and not about the other provisions. Look,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: I think we should all be prepared for Joe Manchin
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: to try again to take out paid family leave, which
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: was put back in the House version. I think we
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: should be prepared for the parliamentarian to once again rule
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: out some of these immigration proposals, which is going to
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: be a huge disappointment. And then Manchin had some specific concerns.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: He was yelling about like, there's extra money for electric vehicles.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: that are constructed in union shops. Why would he be
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: opposed to unions? He's like, every electric vehicle should get
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: the same credit. It's ridiculous, of course. But I think
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: there's going to probably be little things that he and
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: Sinema still kind of pick apart. Yeah, they're going to
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: pound flesh. But the big question is, do you wake
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: up one day and see a Joe Manchin press conference
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: where he's like, I've just thought about it a lot
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: and I'm still too afraid of inflation. I can't vote
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: for this bill and that's it. Like that's the real fear.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: But the White House seems confident that, you know, the
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: Democrats in the Senate seem confident. So who knows? Yeah.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: And Sinema basically kind of in pouring cold water on
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: what the House passed, used the kind of Biden framework
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: as what she was working off of as something that
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: she was more likely to support. So I mean, the
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: reason for hope there that it is sort of moving
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: towards some kind of final resolution.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: One person who seems concerned is AOC, who gave an
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: interview to The New York Times over the weekend where
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: she said, I think that if we pass the Build
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Back Better Act as the House passed it, that we
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: have a shot to go back to our communities and
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: say we delivered. But that's not to say that this
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: process has not been demoralizing for a lot of folks
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: because there were enormous promises made. And this is where
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: I have sounded the alarm, because what really dampens turnout
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: is when Democrats make promises that they don't keep. Tommy,
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: what do you think about that argument?
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, I share her broader anxiety that progressives may
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: have given up their last really strong piece of leverage
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: by voting for the infrastructure bill without an immediate vote on.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Build Back Better. That's a fair point.
• 9:53
  Speaker 4: And if the Build Back Better bill doesn't pass, it
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: would be politically disastrous.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: She's right that the.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: Final version of the infrastructure bill was trimmed a bunch,
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: and the messaging didn't always get adjusted accordingly. So for example,
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: she pointed to the fact that the original infrastructure bill
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: had $ 45 billion to replace lead pipes. That got whittled
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: down to $ 15 billion, but they were still saying, oh,
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: we're going to replace every pipe in the country. We're
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: not going to with that much money. It's a big shortfall.
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: As we saw in Flint, lead exposure is disastrous and
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: can permanently damage kids. But if both the bills pass
• 10:24
  Speaker 4: and there's still a sense of letdown among the base,
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: I think maybe that's partly substantive, but it's also a
• 10:29
  Speaker 4: bit of an expectations management problem. And I think the
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: entire Democratic Party owns that, including AOC, including progressives in
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: the House, including most of all Chuck Schumer for sitting
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: on the aforementioned side. memo from Joe Manchin. And so
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: I'm not saying that they're wrong to fight for more
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: or to say that they want more, but I think
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: we're all operating under political constraints here. And what I
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: hope everyone will do if both of these bills pass
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: is go to their constituencies, go to their districts and say,
• 10:56
  Speaker 4: we got 15 billion to replace these lead pipes. We'll
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: elect more Democrats and we'll get 45.
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: We got four weeks of paid family leave, hopefully. Let's
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: elect more Democrats and we'll fight for 12. I know
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: it's exhausting and the work feels fucking endless, but politics
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: is endless, exhausting work.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: She seemed to make the argument that if you pass
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: Build Back Better, then it will be all lead pipes,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: that it's just that the infrastructure bill specifically is deficient
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: on that measure. Went from 45 to 15, yeah. Right.
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: But no, but she was specifically kind of blasting away
• 11:24
  Speaker 4: at some of Biden's tweets that suggested that that money
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: would pay for the whole thing.
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: But I'm just saying we should all hope for Build
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Back Better because I think you get the rest of
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: the lead pipes. I actually don't know.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, it seems, it does seem like what she
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: was voicing was general frustration with the process that led
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: to this point. Not a, not a sense that have
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: built back better. If a compromise version of build back
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: better passes, it is some new kind of failure to
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: her mind. It is more that I think it was,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: it felt to me like just someone lamenting the same
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: thing we have been lamenting for like the past couple
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: of months. Like Jesus Christ, why are we whittling this
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: thing down so much when we, when we, when, when
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: the politics are behind it, the, The polls are behind it. Like,
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: why are we putting ourselves in this kind of less
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: popular position, which I think is completely right?
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, are there people who think it's
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: the entire Democratic Party's fault that Joe Biden and the
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Democratic majority couldn't pass everything they ran on? Yes, of course.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: But like the question is, what can you do about
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: that if you're an elected Democrat or the rest of us?
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: All you can do is fight for the best bills possible.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Go back to your voters and your constituents and tell
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: them that Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema blocked a bigger bill,
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: a better bill. Tell people exactly what's in the bill
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: you passed and specifically how it's going to change their lives.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: And then tell them what's going to happen if the
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: Republicans take power like that. That's really all you can
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: do in this situation. I don't know. There's no other option. Like,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: I know that people are frustrated that it. that it
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: seems like the Democrats have fucked this up. But again,
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: it's these two people in the Senate that fucked it up.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: And all we can do is tell people that that's
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: the truth.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah, your options aren't the Biden agenda or the Bernie agenda.
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: It's the Biden agenda or the Trump agenda, unfortunately. The
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: other more specific point she makes is that there are
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: executive actions Biden could take that he hasn't yet taken,
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: specifically on student debt. And I've always assumed that he
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: was waiting on that because Biden probably doesn't want Joe
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: Manchin and these guys to tally up the cost of
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: student debt relief and apply it towards you know, the
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: tab in terms of the things they might do legislatively.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: I think he probably wants to sequence it differently, like
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: get these bills passed, then do student debt relief, at
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: least I hope. And if he doesn't do that, then
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: then certainly deserves to be criticized.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: I think that's a really good point that, look, the
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Biden White House has in many ways been held hostage
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: by Manchin and Sinema on a whole host of things
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: while they're trying to pass these two very big pieces
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: of legislation. And And if you're in the White House,
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: you have to say, OK, what's the most important thing
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: in the world right now? The most important thing in
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: the world right now is to get Build Back Better passed.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: That's the entire agenda. And if I have to not
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: emphasize other issues to not piss off Joe Manchin, then
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: that's what I'm going to do.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: And for the price of delay, you can get both.
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: But again, if he doesn't do it after that, then, yeah,
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: people deserve to be pissed. There's also been quite a
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: bit of debate over a New York magazine piece where
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Chait argues that, quote, Biden's presidency began to disintegrate
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: because he found himself trapped in between a well-funded left
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: wing that has poisoned the party's image with many of
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: its former supporters and centrists unable to conceive of their
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: job in any terms, save as valets for the business elite.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: So basically, he says that progressive activists online and in
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: think tanks have pushed policies like defund the police and
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: decriminalizing all border crossings that pushed away not only non-college
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: educated white voters, but non-college educated black and Latino voters
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: as well. And while those voters might respond to more
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: economically populist policies from the Democratic Party, centrists in Congress
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: have fucked that up by doing the bidding of the
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Chamber of Commerce and the pharmaceutical industry on Build Back Better.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: What did you guys think of the piece? Love it.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: What'd you think?
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: I think it's very long. I think it's really smart.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: We love to talk about the length of pieces that
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: we analyze here.
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: So long.
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: I did this with the CNN Kamala Harris story too.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: I was like, my first take is that it's long. Yes,
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: we are. Not lazy.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: I think it makes a very smart point. I think
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: it actually kind of has a little bit of a
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: false equivalence between who he's criticizing on the left and
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: who he's criticizing from the center. On the center, he's
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: talking about policymakers who are actually limiting the scope of
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: democratic ambition in a really harmful, substantive way. And on
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: the left, he is sort of, I think he makes
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: reference to it, but he kind of elides the fact
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: that the reason to fund the police, abolish ICE, some
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: other issues have become so associated with all Democrats is
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: not because of the success of activism, but because of
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: a right-wing misinformation campaign to paint all Democrats as having
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: that position. So I think that is, I think, a
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: little bit.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: But a bunch of activists have that position.
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: Of course, of course.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: And some elected Democrats have them. Absolutely.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying that's I thought it was a very
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: smart piece. I do think that is a distinction worth making. Right.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: Like the the the centrist critique that is, I think,
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: fanciful and politically stupid and toxic has actually had a
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: really negative impact on the governing of this country right now,
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: actively right now, and may hurt our chances to keep
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: the House and keep the Senate. I think the problem
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: from the left is more about the impact of both. Yes,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: it's absolutely true that these are the positions activists and
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: some members of Congress have taken. But the reason Abigail
• 16:34
  Speaker 3: Spanberger does a conference call where she criticizes AOC or
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: Conor Lamb criticizes the squad is not just because there
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: is a left-wing position that they find harmful. It is
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: that they are being tarred with it by Fox News
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: and the Republicans who follow that lead.
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think where he lost me was all the
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: power that was being ascribed to big think tank. Yeah,
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: that's true too. I barely know what liberal think tanks
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: are up to on a daily basis. I don't think
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: liberal donors are necessarily pushing them. Maybe I just have
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: a more fundamental skepticism of that community because I don't
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: live in Washington. But I think people started talking about
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: police brutality and defund the police because George Floyd was murdered,
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: not because of a white paper from Demos or whatever.
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: I do think the similar weakness in some of the arguments,
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: I think it was an overly Washington focused argument for
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: why Joe Biden's approval rating is down. Like I think
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: the approval rating went down because of Afghanistan and then
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: the Delta variant and gas prices are up and inflation.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: Like I think that's driving voter sentiment more than the
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Washington fighting. There's also this like massive ongoing propaganda campaign
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: to say that the current president is illegitimate and then
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: he's in cognitive decline. And that's, I think, doing real damage.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: So like, obviously the legislative process has not helped. I
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: was really glad The really strong part of Chait's piece
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: was when he called out Senators Heidi Heitkamp, Blanche Lincoln,
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: and Max Baucus, and even apparently Al Sharpton, for lobbying
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: to keep tax breaks for the richest people on the planet.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: That's awful.
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: I think sort of akin to that is the way
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: the state and local tax deduction is currently structured because
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: it's criminally stupid and gives rich people a huge tax
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: cut that they don't need. Part of the argument is
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: basically like, look, the political incentives and primaries push people
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: to extremes, to positions that would be unpopular in a
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: general election, but that's been true for eternity. And it's
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: true for both sides. So I like, I didn't buy
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: the idea that like Elizabeth Warren's campaign was undone by
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: the progressive foundation complex. I remember having a one bad
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: debate and then a bunch of people in Iowa decided
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: she was unelectable because I don't know, probably reasons that
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: were gendered and, um, you know, more about like trying
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: to divine the intention of an Ohio swing voter than
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: something that a think tank did.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it is true that progressive activists
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: and probably donors and some politicians embraced a set of
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: policies around defund the police, decriminalizing border crossings, abolish ICE,
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: completely replacing private insurance with government insurance that a significant
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: majority of voters did not like, do not like currently.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: And that's primarily white voters without a college degree, but
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: also increasingly black and Latino voters without a college degree
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: as well. And one of those voters was Joe Biden.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: That was my next one. I'm like, it is also
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: true that Joe Biden and the majority of Democratic politicians
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: specifically opposed those policies, won their races, and were popular
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: for the first six months of 2021. Right? So while,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: by the way, the right wing was attacking those policies,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And and making a big deal and all that kind
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: of stuff. And yet still, Joe Biden was sitting at
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: 57 percent approval in May. Democrats were leading the. generic
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: ballot for Congress at that point. And now when you
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: ask people why they don't approve of Joe Biden and
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: why they don't approve of Democrats in Congress, they overwhelmingly
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: say it's because they haven't focused enough on fixing the
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: economy and rising costs. That's what they say. So, again,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: it's like there's parts of Chait's argument about the left
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: that are true, but I just, I agree with you, Tommy,
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: that I just don't think that's what has affected his
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: approval rating or his presidency or Democrats approval rating as well.
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: There's a lot of like thoughtful analysis, some interesting points.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: And then I thought in the totality of was sort
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: of like, and it's the fault of people who annoy
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: me on Twitter.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Well, right. Yeah. There's always the, yeah. I mean, that's
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: part of the, but I do think is look to
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: love its point, what the, what the centrist did to
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: build back better. It didn't just hurt the bill substantively
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: as you pointed out, but it was politically dumb. Yeah, absolutely. They,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: they changed the dumbest, they changed the policies that were
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: actually most popular with large majorities of voters across the country,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: across parties, across races, policies like, you know, taxing the
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: rich and expanding Medicare, right?
• 20:53
  Speaker 4: Super worst things that happened to that bill were because
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: of those senators I mentioned who are lobbying against the
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: tax provision.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: And it's also worth pointing out too, that, you know, uh,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Corporate centrism is unpopular. Some left-wing policies that Chait describes are,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: broadly speaking, unpopular. From the left, there is an effort
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: to kind of move the Overton window to imagine a
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: more humane and just society and trying to figure out
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: a way to make a broader imaginative case that cuts through.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: From the right, you have people who are doing the
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: bidding of donors or who are enamored of like 90s
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: political conventional wisdom and who are cutting down things that
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: will help people in a real way for cynical reasons
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: that aren't even good politics. So I do think that
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: there's a real false equivalence there. But fundamentally, you know,
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: it doesn't ultimately end up being that complicated. We'll probably
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: do better politically if our policies are popular and we
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: pass them.
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just to be, I think I've been like overly
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: critical of the piece. I think He's right that it
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: is infuriating when you read articles that treat groups like
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: the Chamber of Commerce like they're some sort of like
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: good government group just sort of lobby in good faith.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: You know, like that that is a fair point. It's
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: sort of this fetishization of moderation in the mainstream press.
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: He's also right that I think the the arguments that
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: the way to win is purely through a hyper charged
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: base turnout model of politics is not really convincing, at
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: least not on a presidential level. And a winning candidate
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: is going to have to turn out of the base
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: and convince some swing voters. And we all should just
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: get used to that and try to, like, move forward
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: accordingly and stop debating this. Because I just everyone just
• 22:38
  Speaker 4: misreading the Obama 2008 and 2012 results.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: That we have to stop. Well, and I would say, too,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: for progressives who who deeply believe in those policies like
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: defund or or abolishing ICE or whatever, you know, the
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: answer doesn't have to be to give up the beliefs
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: on those policies. But you do have to realize that
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: there's a lot more work to be done to persuade
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: enough people that those are good policies and not tell
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: yourself that a majority of people just don't support these
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: policies because they've been brainwashed. Like you got fucking work
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: to do to persuade people. And even if they have
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: been brainwashed, even if it's there is the media sucks
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: and the right wing propaganda machine is real. But that
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: is the reality we live in. And the only way
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: around it is to go out there and persuade people
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: that your ideas are good. Some of that requires maybe
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: changing messaging. Some of it requires compromising on the actual policy.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: But it does require some work, you know. OK, when
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: we come back, we will talk to Professor Melissa Murray
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: of the Strict Scrutiny podcast about the Kyle Rittenhouse verdict.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: On Friday, 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse was acquitted on each of
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: the five charges against him, including homicide. Back in August
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: of 2020, Rittenhouse showed up in Kenosha, Wisconsin, with an
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: AR-15-style rifle during protests that followed the shooting of Jacob Blake.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Rittenhouse claimed he was trying to keep the streets safe
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: and that he shot three people in self-defense. Right-wing pundits
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: and politicians are now treating him as a hero. A
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: lot of other people are worried that his acquittal will
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: encourage more vigilante violence. And President Biden said that while
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: the verdict, quote, will leave many Americans feeling angry and concerned,
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: myself included, we must acknowledge that the jury has spoken.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: So we wanted to get into how the jury came
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: to this decision and where we go from here, which
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: is why we're joined again by Melissa Murray from the
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: Strict Scrutiny Podcast. Melissa, welcome back.
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: Thanks for having me.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: So from everything I've read, it seems as if the
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: prosecution had a difficult job, both because of the way
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: the law was written and the evidence presented in this
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: particular case. What do you think?
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: I think that's right. I think usually the prosecution is
• 24:48
  Speaker 6: always arguing uphill in most of these cases because the
• 24:52
  Speaker 6: prosecution has the burden of proving the defendant's guilt beyond
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: a reasonable doubt. And that's an incredibly high standard. So
• 24:59
  Speaker 6: any kind of sliver of doubt would arguably work against
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: the prosecution. And here, That was compounded by the fact
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: that Kyle Rittenhouse was acting or said he was acting
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: in self-defense, and that too presents the prosecution with an
• 25:12
  Speaker 6: added burden. In order to defeat a self-defense defense, the
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: prosecution would have to disprove that Kyle Rittenhouse was acting
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: reasonably and would have to make that burden of proof
• 25:24
  Speaker 6: beyond a reasonable doubt as well. So not only did
• 25:27
  Speaker 6: they have to prove his guilt when he presented that
• 25:30
  Speaker 6: affirmative defense of self-defense, they had to disprove that beyond
• 25:34
  Speaker 6: a reasonable doubt.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: Could you make a legal case for why Rittenhouse should
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: have been convicted either of homicide or perhaps one of
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: the lesser charges?
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: So I think that is really the question that I
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: think a lot of lawyers have after watching this. So
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: it is true that there's an uphill climb for the
• 25:51
  Speaker 6: prosecution to make out one of those homicide charges, especially
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: the murder in the first degree charge that was first offered.
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: But the fact that the judge allowed the jury to
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: be instructed on lesser included offenses, including murder, offenses that
• 26:06
  Speaker 6: included homicides that did not require intent, but rather required
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: an entirely different state of mind, like recklessness, which is
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: simply You know that there is danger, and you do
• 26:16
  Speaker 6: it anyway. You're not meaning to hurt anyone, but you're
• 26:18
  Speaker 6: just acting recklessly. And the jury didn't go for that either.
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: I think many people felt that the inclusion of those
• 26:25
  Speaker 6: lesser included offenses, including recklessly endangering those around you, would
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: have allowed the jury some kind of out to provide
• 26:32
  Speaker 6: some kind of conviction, but not necessarily a conviction on
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: one of the more serious charges. And they kind of
• 26:39
  Speaker 6: really went hook, line, and sinker for this idea that
• 26:42
  Speaker 6: that Kyle Rittenhouse was there in Kenosha brandishing an AR-15
• 26:47
  Speaker 6: and he was doing it in a way that was
• 26:50
  Speaker 6: simply responding to these perceived threats by these other individuals,
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: two of whom he managed to kill.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: You think that's the fault of the prosecutors for not
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: zeroing in on those lesser charges or is that just
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: they tried and the jury just decided not to go there?
• 27:05
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, they did get those included in the
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: jury instructions. I mean, I think it's always a really
• 27:09
  Speaker 6: difficult decision for prosecutors to decide what to charge. And,
• 27:13
  Speaker 6: you know, this is all Monday morning quarterbacking to some extent. And,
• 27:18
  Speaker 6: you know, if you just recall those moments in the
• 27:22
  Speaker 6: aftermath of Kyle Rittenhouse's, you know, killing of those two
• 27:27
  Speaker 6: men and the Jacob Blake shooting in Kenosha at the time,
• 27:31
  Speaker 6: I the feeling was so pitched and charged at that point.
• 27:36
  Speaker 6: But I think it would have been very difficult for
• 27:38
  Speaker 6: a prosecutor to walk away from a first degree murder
• 27:41
  Speaker 6: charge in that environment and to choose something less. I mean,
• 27:44
  Speaker 6: we're thinking about this and it's almost a year later.
• 27:47
  Speaker 6: But in that moment, it was really this sort of
• 27:50
  Speaker 6: deep fever pitch of anxiety and a real desire to
• 27:56
  Speaker 6: see justice served. And I think that's why they pursued
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: that difficult felony charge. But again, the fact that those
• 28:02
  Speaker 6: lesser included offenses were in there, could have given the
• 28:05
  Speaker 6: jury that was inclined to convict an option to do
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: so without really having to convict on the most serious charge.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: Love it. We've seen a lot of Republicans celebrate Rittenhouse
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: as some kind of a hero. He's been offered internships
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: by Matt Gaetz, Madison Cawthorn, Paul Gosar. What a crew.
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Fox News Hugh Hewitt show contributor Kurt Schlichter tweeted the
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: following in response to those who are upset with the verdict, quote,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Your pain delights me. Kyle Rittenhouse killed two leftist cat
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: spas and bisected the bicep of another, and there's nothing
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: you can do about it. What do you make of
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: these very normal reactions? Charming.
• 28:42
  Speaker 6: Yeah, really charming.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, why do people say these things?
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Why does a kid believe he ought to guard a
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: fucking car dealership in Kenosha, even though he makes the
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: situation more dangerous by his presence? It's because of the
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: media he consumes. These people are part of that media.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: You know, he was deputized by Tucker Carlson. And so,
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: you know, and we get into these debates over kind
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: of symbolic examples. But these are real people that died.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: And right-wing media figures and politicians, like, they don't care
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: that people died. Or even, they don't even care that
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: they drove this kid into a situation in which he
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: killed people.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: You know, they.
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: A living vigilante is useful to them. A dead vigilante
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: is useful to them, right? Kyle Rittenhouse gets to be
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: a hero, like Ashley Babbitt gets to be a martyr. And,
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: you know, it's this, the fact that real people will
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: be hurt, that real people will be impacted doesn't really matter.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, look, it's the same logic. Every night on
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Fox News, a vaccinated workforce led by vaccinated anchors spreads
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: vaccine misinformation. Like, Of course they don't care if people
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: live or die. They feed their biggest fans, their bodies
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: of their biggest fans into the like mill, the gristmill
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: of their content factory for outrage, for grievance. They do
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: not care. So of course they'll celebrate this guy as
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: a hero. They do not care if this leads to
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: more people taking it upon themselves to go out there
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: and be vigilantes to make dangerous situations worse because it's,
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: that's it.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: That's all I have to say.
• 30:22
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think it's a lot to say. I mean,
• 30:25
  Speaker 6: this really, I think, suggests not just the spate of
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: disinformation and misinformation that has been consumed, but just the
• 30:34
  Speaker 6: coarsening of our discourse. I mean, you're exactly right. Like
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: two people died. Their families are mourning. Their you're literally
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: dancing on their graves. And, you know, I remember the
• 30:52
  Speaker 6: right after the verdict was read, you know, Fox News
• 30:55
  Speaker 6: got an interview with Kyle Rittenhouse, highly unorthodox for a
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: defendant just beating a serious rap to then talk to
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: the media in the way that he did. But and again,
• 31:08
  Speaker 6: you know, sort of this is about self-defense and the
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: Second Amendment. I mean, you This is actually about what happened,
• 31:15
  Speaker 6: and it was a tragedy, as you say, on all sides.
• 31:18
  Speaker 6: It's also worth noting, John, you mentioned that he is
• 31:21
  Speaker 6: a kid who has consumed a steady diet, perhaps, of
• 31:26
  Speaker 6: right-wing propaganda. I also think that worked in his favor here,
• 31:30
  Speaker 6: the idea that he was painted as, whether it was
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: by white-wing media or whoever else, as a child, as
• 31:36
  Speaker 6: someone who could go into a situation as volatile as
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: this one sort of unwittingly and be provocative and not
• 31:44
  Speaker 6: even understand how provocative he was being and then have
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: all of this happening. And then I think his testimony
• 31:50
  Speaker 6: on the stand where he sort of blubbered incoherently for
• 31:55
  Speaker 6: several minutes, I think fed into this idea that This
• 31:58
  Speaker 6: is someone who is acting reasonably for a teenager who
• 32:02
  Speaker 6: is without the sort of broader maturity and capacity to
• 32:06
  Speaker 6: really understand how unusual and provocative what he did actually
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: was in that moment. And I think all of that
• 32:13
  Speaker 6: played on the jury. And I think for those of
• 32:17
  Speaker 6: us who are watching this, mothers of African-American boys, I
• 32:21
  Speaker 6: think you can't help but notice not every child in
• 32:24
  Speaker 6: this country gets the benefit of being a 17-year-old who
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: does dumb stuff. And I think that was, to me
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: at least, the most salient lesson of this trial, like
• 32:34
  Speaker 6: who gets to be a child in this country and
• 32:36
  Speaker 6: who is constantly treated as an adult.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think, look, this is a complicated
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: case and there were a lot of complicated details that
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: sort of came out through the course of the trial
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: and through some of the reporting. But I think it's
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: very easy for those on the right to have said, yeah,
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: this was decided correctly on the merits legally, but it's
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: a tragedy and let's all move on from this tragedy.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: That's not what they did.
• 33:04
  Speaker 6: The jury has spoken and they spoke to something that
• 33:08
  Speaker 6: is a tragedy for everyone involved. And, but I mean, again,
• 33:12
  Speaker 6: the coarsening of our discourse.
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: And the reason they don't view it as a tragedy
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: is because they, this is the society they are quite
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: comfortable building, right? Like if, if what we have here
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: is a situation in which, because the guns themselves are legal,
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: that you can have a circumstance in which people descend
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: on a place, bring incredibly dangerous weapons to that place.
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: Anyone with a weapon is a threat. Anyone with a
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: weapon can feel threatened. Three people can be shot. Two
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: people can be dead. And no crime was committed. That's
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: that is a lawless place. That's not Kenosha anymore. Like
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: that's squid game, right? That's what we're heading towards. And
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: I do think that sometimes in our kind of political conversation,
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: a lot of legal experts on television will be very
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: descriptive about the law, right? About what the law says,
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: what the law doesn't say. But you step back and
• 34:07
  Speaker 3: it's like, well, this is not the society that we want.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: This is not the kind of world we want to
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: live in.
• 34:13
  Speaker 6: But that's the irony. I mean, it's, the resort to
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: law for the promotion of justifying what is essentially lawless behavior.
• 34:23
  Speaker 6: Say what you will about the prosecution and the uphill battle.
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: This was a situation where the defense attorneys knew exactly
• 34:32
  Speaker 6: what they had to do to open the door for doubt,
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: to open the door for reasonable doubt, to make an
• 34:38
  Speaker 6: affirmative defense of self-defense. And And I think the circumstances
• 34:42
  Speaker 6: are really complicated. There were the victims on the one
• 34:46
  Speaker 6: hand sort of wrestling with the gun. That could be
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: taken as a provocative position. And apparently that was actually
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: something the jury really was quite taken with. They asked
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: to review that footage repeatedly when they were deliberating. So
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: that obviously was something that they were trying to wrestle with.
• 35:02
  Speaker 6: But again, you have the laws, like the law of
• 35:05
  Speaker 6: self-defense working in favor of of a situation that was
• 35:10
  Speaker 6: ultimately unbound by law in this really profound way.
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: So we're still waiting for a verdict in another case
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: involving vigilante violence, where three Georgia men are accused of
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: murdering Ahmaud Arbery, a 25-year-old unarmed black man who they
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: claim they chased and killed because they thought he committed burglaries. Melissa,
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: how are the facts of that case different, and do
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: you expect a different verdict?
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: I do think they are a little different. One, because
• 35:39
  Speaker 6: Ahmaud Arbery, the individual who was killed, was unarmed. He
• 35:44
  Speaker 6: was jogging through a neighborhood. It is true he stopped
• 35:47
  Speaker 6: to look at an unoccupied house that was in the
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: process of being built in Georgia. One does not necessarily
• 35:52
  Speaker 6: have to take anything from a home in order for
• 35:55
  Speaker 6: it to be a burglary. It's simply the entrance into
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: a dwelling place of another person. But again, the facts
• 36:02
  Speaker 6: seem a little broader as to whether or not there
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: was a felony in progress that these individuals emboldened by
• 36:09
  Speaker 6: a citizen's arrest statute that was on the books at
• 36:12
  Speaker 6: the time has been subsequently repealed by the Georgia legislature
• 36:16
  Speaker 6: would have been obliged to address. They never actually declared
• 36:20
  Speaker 6: to him that he was, that they were conducting a
• 36:23
  Speaker 6: citizen's arrest and that he was under a citizen's arrest.
• 36:26
  Speaker 6: So It could be the case that the jury actually
• 36:29
  Speaker 6: views this as kind of a makeshift excuse that was
• 36:33
  Speaker 6: made up after the fact that this isn't exactly what
• 36:35
  Speaker 6: they were doing. In either way, the idea that you
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: have these three guys rolling around in a pickup truck
• 36:42
  Speaker 6: chasing a black man in the streets of Georgia trying
• 36:46
  Speaker 6: to execute a citizen's arrest may strike some as different,
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: perhaps more extreme than the circumstances of Kyle Rittenhouse, the
• 36:56
  Speaker 6: armed teenager who's there to defend the car dealership in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Again,
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: I think you may get a quite different outcome here.
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: I think the prosecutor in this case has been absolutely phenomenal.
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: I mean, she's really repeatedly laid it on about how
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: absolutely unusual this was, that if they were convinced that
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: a felony was in progress, that's likely about assumptions they
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: are making about Ahmaud Arbery. And what are those assumptions
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: grounded in? And I think it's a very smart tactic,
• 37:29
  Speaker 6: emphasizing over and over again that the citizen's arrest defense
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: won't work if there is actually no felony here and
• 37:36
  Speaker 6: probably doesn't work because they're not telling him that that's
• 37:39
  Speaker 6: what they're doing. Instead, this is really about a modern
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: day lynching. And that is the picture I think she
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: is weaving for the jury. So, you know, I think
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: there might be a quite different response here, but that
• 37:51
  Speaker 6: may have as much to do with the places in
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: which these two things unfolded. You know, a place where
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: racial violence has a storied history, which is not to
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: say that Kenosha doesn't have a history of racialized violence,
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: but I think it is thicker and more available and
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: accessible to the jury in Georgia as part of their
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: very recent past.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, From a legal standpoint, I'm wondering what can
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: be done to prevent vigilante violence here, because it does seem,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: as Lovett was pointing out, that you have this intersection
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: of all of these open carry laws in all of
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: these states with the self-defense laws, which basically say it's
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: OK to shoot if you feel threatened somehow. So you
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: have all these people walking around with guns, brandishing weapons
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: in crowds and shooting people saying, oh, well, I thought
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: that it was, I felt threatened somehow.
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: No, I mean, I think that's exactly right. I mean,
• 38:47
  Speaker 6: it is a toxic brew of a proliferation of open
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: carry laws. And I think that is worth discussing. 10,
• 38:56
  Speaker 6: 20 years ago, we did not have as many jurisdictions
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: that had open carry laws as we do now. So
• 39:00
  Speaker 6: that is something that has proliferated over the course of
• 39:02
  Speaker 6: the last 20 years, in large part due to the
• 39:05
  Speaker 6: advocacy of the National Rifle Association. And we have them
• 39:09
  Speaker 6: jutting up against the existing self-defense laws, as well as
• 39:13
  Speaker 6: the self-defense add-ons that the National Rifle Association has advocated
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: quite successfully and lobbied for. And so these are the
• 39:21
  Speaker 6: stand your ground add-ons that basically say you don't have
• 39:24
  Speaker 6: a duty to retreat, you don't have a duty to
• 39:25
  Speaker 6: back away. If you're being provoked in some way, then
• 39:30
  Speaker 6: that's all you need. And again, the instructions in the
• 39:33
  Speaker 6: Kyle Rittenhouse case were really instructive, if you will. I mean,
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: they had to look at this through the lens of
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse. What would he have believed to be
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: reasonable under the circumstances? So I mean, put yourself in
• 39:48
  Speaker 6: the position of this person. And when you do that,
• 39:50
  Speaker 6: I think almost anyone could say like, you know, I
• 39:52
  Speaker 6: don't know how I would respond there, but maybe it's
• 39:54
  Speaker 6: reasonable that, you know, this person thought that deadly force
• 39:58
  Speaker 6: was necessary in these circumstances. So it is both the
• 40:02
  Speaker 6: fact of the existing self-defense laws coupled with the expansiveness
• 40:07
  Speaker 6: of open carry laws, the add-ons to the existing self-defense statute.
• 40:11
  Speaker 6: And then you layer on the citizen's arrest statute in Georgia,
• 40:14
  Speaker 6: and some of these still exist on the books. And yes,
• 40:17
  Speaker 6: of course you have a vigilante culture. And worth noting,
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: the proliferation of open carry laws is only likely to
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: get worse. The Supreme Court is currently considering a case
• 40:28
  Speaker 6: right now. It's called NYSERPA versus Bruin. And it's about
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: New York's law that gives the state the discretion to
• 40:35
  Speaker 6: deny or to grant certain individuals the opportunity to have
• 40:39
  Speaker 6: a concealed carry permit. It's very much like the concealed
• 40:43
  Speaker 6: carry laws in many jurisdictions. And based on oral arguments
• 40:46
  Speaker 6: just last month, It seems like the court is amenable
• 40:50
  Speaker 6: to striking down New York's law and emboldening those to
• 40:55
  Speaker 6: create more laws that basically enfranchise Second Amendment rights to
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: the nth degree. And, you know, there we are.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: It's also, you know, so much of this is about
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: like when like a fantasy or a myth happens. that
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: leads to these laws meeting reality. That's what happens when
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: Rittenhouse ends up in this circumstance. That's what happens when
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: these self-defense laws meet a real complicated situation like this one,
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: because it is a circumstance in which you could just
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: as easily argue that if they had gotten the gun
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: away from Kyle Rittenhouse and shot Kyle Rittenhouse, they would
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: have been acting under self-defense too. So we have built
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: a framework in which people can shoot each other dead
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: in the streets and there is no crime committed. That
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: is an incredible danger that is going to continue to
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: be with us for a very long time.
• 41:41
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, later on, not just that danger, but
• 41:44
  Speaker 6: that all of this is happening in this sort of
• 41:46
  Speaker 6: toxic stew of racial division and just injustice in this country.
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: I mean.
• 41:53
  Speaker 6: Yes, Kyle Rittenhouse killed two white men, but it's hard
• 41:57
  Speaker 6: to sort of divorce what happened from the broader racial
• 42:00
  Speaker 6: unrest that was unfolding in Kenosha that night. Ahmaud Arbery,
• 42:04
  Speaker 6: I mean, once you see someone as the other, once
• 42:08
  Speaker 6: you see someone as a threat and you are emboldened
• 42:11
  Speaker 6: and you have these laws that allow you to be
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: emboldened to carry a weapon, I mean, that to me
• 42:15
  Speaker 6: is a really toxic, toxic mix.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think it is the, absolutely, it's the
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: The backdrop is of the racial violence and broader political
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: violence that we've seen over the last several years as well.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I think you can draw a straight line from January
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: 6th to what's going on here. I mean, love it.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: Recent polls show only a third of Republicans think that
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: bringing a gun to a protest is very inappropriate. A
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: third of Republicans in a recent poll also said that, quote,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: violence might be justified to save our country. It feels
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: to me like the the kind of violence we're talking
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: about here is ultimately more of a political challenge than
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: a legal one. Yeah, I mean, of course.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's more than even a political challenge. It
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: is a cultural challenge, right? These are political views. These
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: are also cultural views. These are the views of the
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: kind of society we want to live in. It is
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: now a mainstream Republican view, right? Like this is not fringe.
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: It's the mainstream Republican view that Kyle Rittenhouse ought to
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: be allowed to carry a weapon like this one, the
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: one he carried through city streets and And at the
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: same time, that police ought to be militarized and brutal
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: in dealing with protests because this sort of growing authoritarian
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: impulse basically is fully co-opted the Republican Party and it
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: doesn't accept the authority of the state except when it's
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: being used by right-wing agents against people it views as
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: their opponents in some way and that it can never
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: be used.
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: It can never be... fairly used against the right. That's
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: why you see the claim that every kind of rule
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: against COVID, any kind of COVID safety is some kind
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: of tyranny. That's why every kind of climate rule or
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: any kind of poverty amelioration is socialism. That is why
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: they don't accept the results of elections. It is about power.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: And yeah, that is more than a legal question. We
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: will not, like Kyle Rittenhouse is convicted. He's no longer
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: just a kind of victorious hero. He's a martyr to
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: the cause. The same trend will continue. The same effort
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: to kind of feed more people into this sort of
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: vigilante process will continue. So yes, it is a broad
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: political problem of a kind of fascistic right-wing movement of
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: this country that has taken hold of one of our
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: two political parties.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: That's where we're at.
• 44:37
  Speaker 6: Is this the end of democracy?
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's sort of what I was getting at
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: in this final question here, because just on the most
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: basic level, it is what some of these right-wing pundits
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: and some of these politicians are saying is it's okay
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: to hurt people that you don't like now. It's okay
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to hurt your political enemies, right? That they're not just wrong,
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: but that they're dangerous and that they're a threat and
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: that they're such a threat that it's okay to cause
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: them physical harm. Like that's what we're talking. Beyond all
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: the legal specifics of the case, that is what the,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: the post-verdict celebration of Kyle Rittenhouse is really about. Because
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: you hear a lot of Republicans be like, oh, these
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: liberals had all the details of the case wrong and
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: this and the loss of this. And it's like, yeah, yeah,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: but that's not what you're all doing. You're all wanting
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: to give him internships. And you're saying it's great that
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: he killed some leftists. And I keep thinking about that
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: Turning Point USA conference where the kid stands up at
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: the end and he says, yeah, but when do we
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: get to use the guns? And there's this moment where
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk is like, oh, well, don't say that. But
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: it wasn't because like, don't say that because it's wrong
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: to say.
• 45:46
  Speaker 6: Don't say that because the camera's on.
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because we're going to get in trouble. And like,
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: you're right. Like, I don't think, I mean, I don't
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: know whether it's the end of democracy or not, but
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I think that what those of us who want to
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: defend democracy have to do is to call it out
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: and talk about it for the emergency that it is.
• 46:04
  Speaker 6: I totally agree with, I mean, I teach constitutional law and,
• 46:09
  Speaker 6: you know, the beginning of the year, the first thing
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: that had happened was the January 6th insurrection. And I
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: was like, this is a constitutional crisis. No, that did
• 46:18
  Speaker 6: not stop the election. It did not stop the peaceful
• 46:21
  Speaker 6: transfer of power. But the fact that this could happen,
• 46:25
  Speaker 6: my parents are immigrants. This is stuff that did not
• 46:27
  Speaker 6: happen in the United States. This is stuff that they
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: left other countries for. And it's happening here in the
• 46:34
  Speaker 6: United States. And the idea of citizens arming themselves to
• 46:40
  Speaker 6: supplement the police when the police are being too casual
• 46:44
  Speaker 6: with protesters, when the police aren't being fascist enough. I mean,
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: that's not anything I thought I would see in my
• 46:52
  Speaker 6: lifetime in this country. It feels like a really dark place.
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: It feels like a really, really dark moment.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: There's this, there's a scene in the movie Alien Resurrection
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: that This is the fourth film in the series. This
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: is when Sigourney Weaver has come back from the dead
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: to fight the aliens once again.
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: Hence Resurrection.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: Hence Resurrection. And she's walking down a spaceship's hallway with
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: Ron Perlman. And he goes, hey, Ripley, I heard you
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: like ran into these things before. And she's like, yeah,
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: I did. And then Ron Perlman says, wow, man. So like,
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: what did you do? And she says, I died.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: I was really hoping that you were, that we were
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: getting to an anecdote that I could be like, well,
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: I'm glad that we can leave it on that high note.
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us, but no, no, I know.
• 47:38
  Speaker 6: Ron Perlman is always a high note. I say, I mean,
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: he's highly underrated as an actor, sons of anarchy, the beast.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: Like he's amazing. He's amazing.
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: He's so good.
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: I think what I, what we are dealing with, right.
• 47:53
  Speaker 3: Is a, right-wing movement that will use institutions when it
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: is useful, they will discard them when it is useful.
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: And we have to find a way to fight that
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: kind of politics. Obviously, we're never going to burn the
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: Capitol down. We're not going to attack institutions in the
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: same way. But I think it argues for having kind
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: of a normal politics strategy and one that is honest
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: about how this is a process taking place outside the
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: bounds of our democracy and enemy from without. And I
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: think one aspect of it that we have to stop
• 48:22
  Speaker 3: doing is I think we have to stop begging kind
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: of corporate interest and mainstream media that have such a personal, financial,
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: cultural stake in not being honest about this problem. We
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: have to stop begging them to let the world radicalize them.
• 48:35
  Speaker 3: We have to stop begging them and beseeching them to
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: see it the same way. And we need to come
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: up with strategies ourself from outside of these institutions to
• 48:45
  Speaker 3: attack the propaganda apparatus, to attack the way in which
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: Facebook and Fox News kind of work in concert to
• 48:51
  Speaker 3: radicalize people on a grand scale. And we have to
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: start being honest about just how big a threat it is.
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: And I think right now the truth is we aren't, right?
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: We just aren't.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: But yeah, no, I agree with that. But I think
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: that fundamentally, the only option here is to persuade a
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: majority of our fellow citizens to defeat this kind of
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: politics at the ballot box. That's it. That really is.
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: And I know that can be like, that's like really
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: frustrating to hear because everyone's like, Well, I just voted
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: and then I voted in happened, but it's like, you
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: can protest also is incredibly important protest voting. But like,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: when you talk about strategy, what other strategy is there
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: besides like, we can yell, but we have to persuade
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: these corporations not to do that. We have to persuade
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: these people not to do this. Like, that's sort of,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: that's what it comes down to if we want to
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: live in a democracy.
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: So another thing I think is worth talking about, I mean,
• 49:44
  Speaker 6: we sort of touched on it, but like so much
• 49:46
  Speaker 6: of this grievance politics is at its root, I think,
• 49:49
  Speaker 6: about racial grievance, like I'm losing my country, like redistribution,
• 49:53
  Speaker 6: I'm losing my country. And some of the folks who
• 49:56
  Speaker 6: are most aggrieved and sort of signing on to this,
• 49:59
  Speaker 6: you know, Republican conservative agenda are do so in, I guess,
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: what looks like intra-racial solidarity, but it is a kind
• 50:07
  Speaker 6: of solidarity that comes at the expense of socioeconomic solidarity
• 50:10
  Speaker 6: because what they're doing doesn't actually benefit those who are
• 50:14
  Speaker 6: socioeconomically hurting, the people who actually have real economic grievance.
• 50:19
  Speaker 6: My former Berkeley colleague, Ian Haney-Lopez, has written this terrific book,
• 50:24
  Speaker 6: Dog Whistle Politics, where It's fantastic. And I think it
• 50:27
  Speaker 6: really lays this out. Like, I mean, this is the
• 50:30
  Speaker 6: racial dog whistling is what is dividing the sort of
• 50:34
  Speaker 6: class solidarity that could actually create a more progressive coalition.
• 50:38
  Speaker 6: And it is being divided because of this kind of
• 50:41
  Speaker 6: racialized grievance that they are capitalizing on. And, you know,
• 50:45
  Speaker 6: and again, I think it is the sort of opportunistic
• 50:47
  Speaker 6: co-opting of certain constituencies that John was talking about.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: Well, and as Ian points out, too, And the only
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: way out of that is to call out the dog whistling.
• 50:58
  Speaker 6: Yeah, to say it over and over.
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: To call out the strategy of those who are trying
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: to divide people by race and class.
• 51:04
  Speaker 6: Well, I mean, and that goes, you know, why was
• 51:06
  Speaker 6: Kyle Rittenhouse and Kenosha not to defend race? that car dealership,
• 51:11
  Speaker 6: but because the idea that there were minorities in Kenosha
• 51:15
  Speaker 6: who were acting out and were going to loot and
• 51:17
  Speaker 6: going to riot and there's going to be property destruction.
• 51:19
  Speaker 6: That's why he was there. Why was Ahmaud Arbery stopped?
• 51:23
  Speaker 6: Why was this quote unquote citizen's arrest undertaken? Because he
• 51:26
  Speaker 6: was a black man who looked like he wasn't supposed
• 51:28
  Speaker 6: to be where he was.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Well, we have a lot of work
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: to do. We'll end on that note.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: Melissa Murray, I'm sorry my alien resurrection story didn't land
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: in a more hopeful place.
• 51:41
  Speaker 6: I'm just so glad you said it. I'm just so
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: glad you said it. I hang out with Kate Shaw,
• 51:45
  Speaker 6: who doesn't watch any television, so I'm just so excited
• 51:48
  Speaker 6: to talk movies with you all. This is great.
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Melissa. Thanks for having us, as always. Come back
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: again soon. All right. Before we go, we should note
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: that one other much talked about event took place on Friday.
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: President Joe Biden temporarily transferred power to Vice President Kamala
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: Harris for 85 minutes while he was under anesthesia for
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: a routine colonoscopy. Or as the Gawker headline read, first
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: woman president. Nation celebrates President Kamala Harris as Joe Biden
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: gets ass probed. And of course, here's how Fox News
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: handled it.
• 52:31
  Speaker 7: For 85 minutes today, while doctors examined the Biden pipeline,
• 52:36
  Speaker 7: Kamala Harris officially became the first female president of the
• 52:40
  Speaker 7: United States. And over at CNN, it was like an
• 52:43
  Speaker 7: 85-minute thrill up their leg. For one hour and 25
• 52:47
  Speaker 7: minutes today, Kamala Harris became the first woman with presidential power.
• 52:51
  Speaker 5: She is the first woman to receive the presidential power.
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: So a history-making day also here at the White House.
• 52:59
  Speaker 5: As a woman, do you feel any sort of pride
• 53:03
  Speaker 5: at all about this glass ceiling being shattered, even though
• 53:06
  Speaker 5: it was shattered because the president was having his colon checked?
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: I like that that was a clip within a clip.
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: First of all, Tommy, how unusual is this transfer of power?
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: It's not that unusual. It's happened a couple of times.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: George Bush went under for colonoscopies. They were, you know,
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: it's part of the power under Section 3 of the
• 53:25
  Speaker 4: 25th Amendment. You can send a letter to the speaker
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: in the Senate pro tem. temporarily transfer power. Whenever the
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: procedure is done, send another letter, transfer it back. Did
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: you guys know that Trump reportedly lied about getting a
• 53:38
  Speaker 4: colonoscopy and refused to transfer power to Pence? Remember that
• 53:41
  Speaker 4: secret trip to Walter Reed that everyone's freaking out about?
• 53:45
  Speaker 4: His old press secretary says it was a colonoscopy, but
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: he didn't want to get made fun of on TV,
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: so he didn't tell anybody.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: Which is just something we should always keep in mind.
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: Perfect.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: Is Occam's razor for Trump is like, he just doesn't
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: want to get mocked, right? It's just the stupidest fucking explanation.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: There was so many conspiracies about that.
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: Twitter thought he was burning the last copy of the
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: P-tape or something like that.
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It turned out he just was getting a
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: colonoscopy and then wanted to lie about it because he
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: didn't want to be embarrassed, which is like the most,
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: because he's a fucking... Thin-skinned man.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: When Trump had his colonoscopy, they found two polyps and
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Secretary of State Mike Pompeo.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Ha ha ha!
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: I have one more.
• 54:21
  Speaker 2: You know who's laughing out loud listening to that joke
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: on his podcast right now? Ben Rhodes. Ben Rhodes is
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: loving that joke right now.
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: I have one more. Are you ready? Here's my other joke.
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden loves Amtrak so much he even lets his
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: doctors run train.
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, boy. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. A lot of head palms,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: face palms in the studio here.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: I'm so sorry.
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: Did you know that Grover Cleveland got surgery in 1893
• 54:47
  Speaker 4: to remove a tumor and he did it secretly on
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: a friend's yacht? And kept it from the press?
• 54:52
  Speaker 6: No.
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: Didn't know that. Didn't know that. Wait, so a bunch
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: of people on Twitter were saying, what are you talking about?
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: What about Edith Wilson? Which we should know because we
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: have co-produced a podcast, a series, called Edith.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: Yes, Edith Wilson usurped the powers of the presidency, but
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: she was never legally the acting president.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris did it the legal way. Kamala Harris did
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: it the legal way, which is something, that's why we're celebrating. Yes.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: I mean, I just think that it's so funny. Like,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: what a historic moment. I'm like, I think that Kamala
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Harris wants a historic moment that's a bit different than
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: the 85 minutes that she... I think she wants to
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: become President of the United States, as she should.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, you try having a finger in your
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: butt without ceding some authority. You know what I mean?
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. It's not possible.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God.
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: What?
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: The lesson... Yeah, I think a couple lessons here.
• 55:44
  Speaker 4: One, people on TV always want to make the moment
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: they're experiencing on TV seem more important than it was.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Two.
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: Trump's candidacy revealed a lot of holes in our system.
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: And one is how little we demand from them in
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: terms of transparency around their health, right?
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: I mean, remember Dr.
• 56:02
  Speaker 4: Bornstein, the Trump doctor who wrote the letter saying he
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: was the healthiest individual ever elected?
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: These are just some of the holes we need to
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: shine a light down, all right, to expose what's going on. Tommy,
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: you did it. I did.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Also, clean bill of health for Biden, which is something
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: that seems important.
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: I have to say, actually, the doctor's report answered a
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: question I had, which is why he's constantly clearing his throat.
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: And as someone who struggles with this as well, I
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: learned something. He apparently has acid reflux, which means he's
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: like constantly coughing.
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: Oh.
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: But it's a pretty innocent explanation. Well, there you go.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: Get some Pepsod.
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: Tommy's knocking down conspiracies left and right. Left and right
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: over here with my man Grover Cleveland. Lovett's just making jokes.
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: Making jokes about butts.
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: It's about butt stuff. It's butt stuff.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Well, that's all the time we have for today. Because
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: this is a podcast and there's no time limit. But
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: I'm stopping it here.
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you to Melissa Murray for joining us. And Dan
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: and I will be out Thursday for a Thanksgiving mailbag.
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: It's because Secretary of State Mike Pompeo was just like
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: up his ass.
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: So send us your questions on, you can send it
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: to us on Twitter, on Instagram. Yeah. Send us some questions.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Andy Gardner Bernstein.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Our producer is Haley Muse and Olivia Martinez is our
• 57:35
  Speaker 2: associate producer. It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle
• 57:39
  Speaker 2: Seglin is our sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Somanator, Sandy Gerard,
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: Hallie Kiefer, Madison Holman, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: and to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Phoebe Bradford, Milo Kim,
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: and Amelia Montu. Our episodes are uploaded as videos at youtube.com
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: slash crookedmedia.