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What is Codependency? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and SMITHA. I'm welcome stuff.
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: I never told your production of iHeart Radio, and today
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: we are tackling a topic that I It's a real
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: complicated mess I feel like I'm about to poke a
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: horn's nest. It really wasn't my attention. And actually, what
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to say at the start of this is,
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: please listen to the whole thing before you write a message,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: because I Am going to talk about a lot of
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: the concerns. So yeah, just please wait and then you
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: can send your messages all you want. But yes, I
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: didn't think it was going to be so intense medically,
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: because yes, today we are talking about co dependency. This
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: is on my list of topics that I'm still working
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: through related to being ceerbated, because it was a conversation
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: that came out after that happened, which was months and
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: months ago, by the way, But I am determined to
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: get through every topic on that list, and this was one.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: And another thing to say here is do not take
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: any medical advice from a podcast.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: I've ever ever, don't ever do it.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: Do not try to self diagnose based on this podcast
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: if some of it resonates with you and you're concerned,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: seek professional advice, but we are not experts. We research
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: as best we can and present topics as best we can,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: but we are not in that field. This is more informative,
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: But please don't take it as some kind of diagnosis
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: for yourself, because this topic in particular is really really messy,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: and a lot of people are circulating misinformation and disinformation
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: about it online, further complicated by the fact that the
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: symptoms are all over the place depending on the source,
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: and that relationships are messy and hard to pin down.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: They're kind of hard to put into scientific terms. It's
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: one of those things that people are throwing around and overusing,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: kind of diluting what it really is and how serious
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: it can be.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: You can diagnose.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Fictional characters and relationships as I did, but not yourself.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: You should not take this episode as that, and as always,
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: be careful where you get your information from, because I
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: ran into a lot of sites that were offering ways
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: to get out of codependent relationships or break those behaviors
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: for a price, and they just kind of rubbed me
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: the wrong way because the information they presented often was
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: not backed in science or evidence or even general understand
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: in the psychology community. So don't get me wrong, a
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: reputable professional deserves to be compensated for their time. But
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: it just a lot of it seemed more scammy to me.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: And this situation is rife with mis and disinformation, as
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: I said, so be careful about that.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Also, these sites seem.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: To be very like something is wrong with you and
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: here's why, and it's die by the way.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: Pay us money. I just don't like that.
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: I don't like that, And hopefully by the end of
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: this episode you'll be more informed and can recognize why
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: that whole thing that attitudes should be treated with skepticism.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: So quick content warning for this we are going to
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: be talking about addiction and briefly mentions of domestic violence,
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: so we're not going to go too in depth. I
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: would recommend seeing our past episode on attachment styles because
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: that is related to this conversation, and probably we've done
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: a lot of other things that are related. This sort
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: of branches out well.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think they're just in relationship conversations. We've talked
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: about it, like the best friend thing.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Do we've talked about yes, friends.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, And we are going to touch on that because
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: it usually people are talking about a romantic relationship when
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: they say code dependency, but it can manifest in any
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: kind of relationship, and it can manifest in any number
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: of ways. So yes, when people say codependency, they are
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: primarily referring to a dysfunctional relationship where one person acts
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: as the provider or the giver slash rescuer, putting the
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: other person's needs above their own, while the other person
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: operates as the taker slash victim. While this is typically
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: used to describe romantic relationship dynamics, it can appear in
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: all types of relationships. Yes, between parent and child, or
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: family members or friends. The phrase relationship addiction is sometimes
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: used to describe this as well, but from what I gather,
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: it's kind of frowned upon in the psychology community. That
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: being said, there is a lot of debate about what
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: codependency is. As of now, there is no clinical diagnosis
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: for it, nor a personality disorder classification for it, and
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: in fact, some psychologists think that we should.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Retire the term entirely.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Over the years, the usage has evolved, which I think
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: is part of the issue. At first, it solely described
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: a relationship that was unbalanced due to a substance abuse problem.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: Or addiction, first used by substance abuse communities in the
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighties, but then people start to use it for
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: any kind of lopsided or enabling relationship. This is related
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: to a lot of other terms too, some of them
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: that I think are better at describing the behavior in
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: this type of relationship. And yes, it is used colloquially
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: also outside of psychology to describe an inbalance relationship or
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: even a really close So that's when you see it online.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of times that's what people are
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: usually using it as, so keep that in mind as well.
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: Early usage also evolved out of familial survival roles, as
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: coined by Sharon Wegschneider Cruz. She outlined four roles, the
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: family hero who takes on a lot of responsibility, the
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: family scapegoat who takes on a lot of the blame,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: the lost child who is largely outside the family for
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: whatever reason, and the family mascot who does inappropriate things
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: for attention. So that's sort of where it all came from,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: all right, that weird. I feel like family mascot denotes
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: something else. Thought when I first saw that, I thought
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: it was going to be more of a like a
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: jokester type.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, not in the inappropriate way.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Like I guess you could be an inappropriate jokester, but
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: I was thinking more of the like clown.
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the one that like, oh that's so and so sun,
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: like that's the son. Yeah, in type of like that's
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: so and so family. He's a part of that family
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: type of thing. When you write, you know, so that's
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: not how okay, Wayne, that's negative.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, same had the same reaction, keep going okay.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: So all relationships do have a give and take and needs,
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: but what we're talking about here is an uneven one
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: where a highly functional caretaker enables the destructive and or
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: self sabotaging behavior of another, and it's constantly put in
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: position of caretaking and looking after them. In the case
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: of a partner with substance abuse, this could look like
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: facilitating their addiction by covering for them. So the long
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: held belief was that the caregiving partner should emotionally distance
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: themselves so the other person can experience the negative consequences
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: of their actions.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: But again see.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: Above, we are not a medical podcast. Addiction is complicated
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: and can be dangerous, just as so bring up can
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: be dangerous. If you don't do it right. It can
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: take time and medical supervision, and all of this is
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: very simplified take of a belief some held and some
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: continue to hold. It's also really difficult for people to
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: watch someone they love struggling with an addiction. But in
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: terms of codependency, the enabler is doing more harm than good.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: This does not mean stepping away entirely necessarily. It just means,
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: in this type of codependent relationship, it's more than just
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: taking care of someone who is struggling. But I'm guessing
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: already you can see why psychologists fight about this, and
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: this is why I want you to wait until the
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: end of the episode before you send your angry emails.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: So the caregiver in this equation usually exhibits traits like
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: low self esteem, an extreme need to please, excessive self
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: imposed responsibility, and poor boundary making and enforcing skills. They
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: often are overly harsh on themselves. They're perfectionists. They may
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: have some version of the savior complex or a need
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: to rescue or save people.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: They need to be neat.
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: All of this can lead to burnout, exhaustion, frustration, and
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: other physical and mental health issues, including addiction and suicidality.
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: The takers, on the other hand, usually have some kind
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: of addiction or mental health issue, emotional immaturity, and someone
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: to help enable them. Unless they tackle these things. Unless
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: they step outside of that relationship, they might lash out
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: at the giver as being clingy or controlling. People in
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: codependent relationships frequently have a pass of childhood trauma, or
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: they grew up around addiction and or mental illness, or
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: in houses where self sacrifice and emotional repression were normalized.
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: They themselves might have anxiety or depression. And yeah, attachment
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: styles can play a role in this too, and in fact,
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: that's a really big theory right now that we'll touch
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: on at the end. However, anyone can find themselves in
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: this type relationship. As mentioned, it has never been scientifically
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: accepted or proven, though there's no evidence behind it, and
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: some in the field believe that it stigmatizes care and
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: love in relationships are at the very least ignores the
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: fact that humans scientifically do form strong emotional bonds that
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: do not usually break when times get tough, like with addiction.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: They argue that it's natural instinctive to care for a
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: loved one who is struggling to want to care for them. Obviously,
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: if it's repeated behavior, that's a factor. If it is harmful,
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: that matters too. Sometimes you do have to detach or
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: distance yourself. But the argument is that codependency isn't a pathology.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be treated that way. It's a very human
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: thing that can occur in relationships. It has traditionally been
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: coded as feminine, to the desire to care for a
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: loved one has long been devalued and stigmatized. So a
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: lot of people argue that's part of the reason why
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: we need to change how we talk about this. Relationships
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: can fluctuate on top of that, sometimes one person needs
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: more support and then it shifts to the other.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Person and another thing.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: There is judgment around addiction that's going on, and this too,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: like if it was cancer instead people would be judged
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: for leaving, you would be expected to stay. There is
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: another aspect of this conversation that we need to mention
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: that sometimes in these codependent relationships, the taker purposely builds
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: a trauma bond to keep the giver from leaving. A
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: recent study suggested, based on his findings, that a lot
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: of the framework behind codependency research was outdated blaming the
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: giver slash enabler or the taker for the learned helplessness,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: when instead all of these relationship dynamics were hiding abusive
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: relationships behind mental health. According to this research, we should
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: be talking more about the manipulation of trauma bonds and
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: coercive attachment. So this research challenges the idea that abuse
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: is what forms the trauma bond, but that the perpetrator
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: deliberately builds an attachment before the abuse, and the enabling
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: in this case is not out of a place of
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: misguided good intentions, but a fear of violence or that
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: it came from grooming. So basically, these researchers think codependency
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: was largely miscategorized or misused and can be very victim
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: blaming and is actually hiding a much bigger real problem.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: With all of that in mind, it makes sense that
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: the numbers for codependent folks are all over the place,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: with some people flat out saying there are none because
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: it isn't a thing. Codependency doesn't exist. Long statistic put
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: it at forty million Americans, most of them women. This
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: was from a research paper and they use the term
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: labeled as codependent and it's from nineteen ninety eight, so
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: a grain of salt with that. Another paper I found
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: said that actually the numbers between men and women are
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: pretty much equal, and the scale might even tip more
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: towards men, but that one was from twenty seventeen. An
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: analysis of some of the numbers over at Psychology Today
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: theorizes that this might be because of societal gender roles.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: Women are conditioned to be more caring, to put others first,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: so in a codependent situation, that conditioning might get amped
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: up and become unhealthy. That might be why women have
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: traditionally been what people think of when they think of codependent.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: This adds another complex layer too, of pathologizing when there
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: is this societal reason for why it has been gendered.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: There's anything wrong with a woman doing this of caring,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: but rather that we should look at societal forces and
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: pressures creating these situations. And there has been a lot
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: of conversation recently from women breaking out of these ideals
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: that they have to be a martyr, put everyone else
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: first and sacrifice their own well being. We've talked about
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: that on the show. We've had some book clubs and
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: stuff about you know, I realized I'm in an unhappy marriage.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Might as well get divorced.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: I don't want to teach my kids right that this
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: is that martyring yourself and being unhappy.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we talked about that with incompetence weaponized and competence
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah a little bit.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I'm glad that we're having those conversations.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: Men on the other hand, and yes, this conversation is
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: very heteronormative and binary, and it has a lot of
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: gender generalations in it. They usually manifest these societal expectations
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: in a codependent relationship through the messaging of Men are
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: the protectors and providers, which again not always a bad thing,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: but it can reduce someone down to just how he
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: can save her, how it makes him look, and not
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: what she actually needs. So those are all That's a
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff there. There are no agreed upon symptoms
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: or signs, but here are some that frequently come up
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: in the discussion. Lack of life are purpose outside of
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: a relationship, seeking external happiness from another person and only
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: that other person. One person's needs comes first, always, partner idealization,
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: ignoring faults or pretending that those faults don't exist, enabling
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: bad behavior and poor choices. Again, this can be messy
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: if we're talking about domestic violent situations though, controlling behaviors,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: taking on guilt, too much responsibility and ability to enforce boundaries,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: or state needs, overreliance on someone else, fear of abandonment.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: That's a big one. Fixation on fixing others. And here's
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: what I thought was interesting, sharing the same mood and emotions,
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: because this can be normal like that, if you're hanging
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: out with somebody, that can be totally normal. But if
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: they're not actually yours and you're just taking them on,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: not so much. If you can't decide things separately is
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: another one too. You should check in with someone when
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: making choices that concern them, But if neither of you
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: can decide, or a guilt comes with making an individual decision,
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: could be cause for doing some introspection.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: There seems like a lot of blurred lines when it
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: comes to like healthy relationships, yes, empathetic individuals, and also.
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: Codependency in a bad form.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: I feel like some of these things are also like
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: this is what the qualities we want of a man,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: But then it looks like it's too much sometimes like
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: it being my best friend thing or my only friend
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: which we've seen and can work, like not necessarily healthy,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: Like I think I'm thinking about my parents specifically, specifically
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: my mother my father. Actually I've never seen them in
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: my adult and childhood, my adulthood. My mom has done more,
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: thank goodness, but it's with her sister. But before she
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: had no friends. I didn't know she had friends. The
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: only people she talked to on the phone were family
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: members and church goers, and they didn't necessarily hang out
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: all the time. And my dad absolutely not, but he
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: absolutely wouldn't want to on a regular basis.
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: It's kind of interesting, but at this.
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: Point they are, to me, one of the more successful
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: marriage just codependency.
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, And I think you've kind of hit the
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: nail on the head, is that this is really blurry,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Like a lot of these lines are really blurry, and
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: it's hard to say at the end of the day,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: is it HEALTHI er is it not healthy?
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Is ultimately what the question is, Like does it work
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: for you? Yeah?
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: And I think that's kind of when we talked about
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: our own what we don't want mm hmm. You and
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: I specifically when we've talked about that, especially after seeing
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: our parents going through things, or you know, seeing other
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: friends going through things and being like, absolutely not. And
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: it's like my mother's marriage. She is happy and content
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: and wants that for her children. In my mind, that's
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: a curse. Why would you say that to me? It's
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: kind of that level of like, yeah, her regrets, her
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: love and what she has outweigh her regrets. But she
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: has those regrets and has told me these regrets have
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: lashed out with these regrets. I've seen that with friends
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: as well, that I'm like, y'all, really like this is
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: this what you had hoped for? And of course again
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: that's me being judgmental and one thing is to me,
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: that's not satisfying, But to them it was exactly what
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: they wanted or had said they had hoped. Now I
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: can't look into their mind and heart and see if
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: that's really true, and maybe that to them it is true,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: and on a deeper level it's not true, you know
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: what I mean?
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Who is to say?
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: But it's interesting to me because when we talk about codependency,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: it is kind of a negative take on what we say,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: like don't you don't want to be codependent on people?
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. But yet some of these things once
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: upon a time was the dream.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely romanticized.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and even for the best friend structure, like you
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: see people talking about their best friend that they've had
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: this childhood and like how they can't do anything without
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: each other, who they have had babies at the same
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: time as each other, tried purposely like all these things
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: or have like try to be in the same place
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: in their lives so they can continue that. They're like,
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: I also don't want that for me specifically, you.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: I think it's like in a lot of our media,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: we've been sold this very intense relationship and that means
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: that it's so powerful, it's so intense. But at the
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: same time, when I was doing this research, it is
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: fascinating to me how many people are so against this
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: idea because they think it was demonizing women's care generally
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: women's care of We were saying it's codependent, like it's
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: a bad thing. As you said that you usually applied
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: to women taking care of people, And I do think
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: there's an unhealthy version of this, But.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I'm also.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: I think that it might have been used in a
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: way to kind of put women down and say you're
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: making you're making this problem. Yeah, but they're just trying
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: to care for somebody the best that they can in
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: their life.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, especially like with the hand that they've been dealt,
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: whether it's not understanding again like being told this is
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: the dream, this is what you want it to be.
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: Like this whole trad wife phenomenon is a resurgence of.
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: That in.
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: A different way with capitalism involved.
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: But like what we see is now the resurging of
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: a new old dream. Is that same idea that once
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: upon a time was fed this is what you're supposed
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: to have, and now it kind of backtracked And we've
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: talked about this where like it's the understanding that if
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: you're truly fighting for the rights for someone, you're fighting
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: for whatever right they want, like that they choose to have,
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: and for those who are happy to be in those
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: in a way that hopefully doesn't cause them trauma or
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: isn't read out of trauma, then great. But at the
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: same time, this pushback of like there's an like that
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: same blurred line, it's like is it good?
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Is it bad?
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: Who was to say?
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: And that was one thing I kept grappling with when
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: I was reading this, because we've also talked a lot
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: about you can reach a point where you do need
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: to step back, it's not healthy for you anymore, and
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: maybe you need that person to want it for themselves
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: in the case of something like addiction. Right, So it's
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: it's just really complicated, Like this whole conversation, I think
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: it's been reduced far too much because there's just so
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: much going on and every relationship has its own story,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: and I don't know, there's just something about it where
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: I don't feel comfortable at all giving any kind of
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: definitive right, this is what it is exactly. Yeah, yeah, which,
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: speaking of I cannot reiterate enough. We are not a
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: medical podcast. If addiction is involved, please seek out a professional.
• 23:19
  Speaker 2: But if you're worried you might be in a codependent relationship,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: there are a couple things you can do, and it's
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of stuff you might expect. Obviously, it does
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: depend on the type of relationship you're in, and pretty
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: much all of it, all of this advice is for
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: the giver, which makes sense, but I can also see
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: it playing into the problem. But anyway, here are a
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: few work on self esteem and boundaries, exercise, healthy eating,
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: solo activities, introspection always a good one. Self acceptance, working
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: on that. Solutions that involve we instead of putting everything
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: on yourself, so it's both of you solution and focus
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: on support versus control. Make sure that you can separate
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: your goals and desirrus from the other persons. They might
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: align a lot.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Of the time.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: It doesn't mean they're like completely separate, but just make
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: sure you kind of no practice asserting yourself and they
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: have like examples online. This doesn't have to feel as
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: aggressive as some of it might sound. It's just like, well,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: what if we did this? I have another suggestion and
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: challenging negative thoughts. So I have all these but I
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: once again I got to say these are more complicated
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: than a bullet point, and especially when you take into
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: account gender dynamics. I think there was one that was
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: about like, essentially because women have been socialized to take
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: care of things and they still statistically do a lot
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: of the domestic and care work in the US. That
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can assert yourself all you want, but
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: you'll probably still be doing a lot more. I mean,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I would hope not, but there's a lot of cases
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: where I can see you getting frustrated and you're going
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: to do the dishes anyway, right, even if you've made
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: that point right, So it's not as simple and as
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: easy as Oh, I have never thought of that. I
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: don't mean we all know this stuff, so I don't
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: want it to sound trite or anything like that. It's
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: not to say it's not useful. I work on a
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: lot of this stuff all the time, but I just
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: I think it's more complicated, and especially if you're bringing
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: in something like domestic violence or abuse or whatever the situation,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: that's going to change how these things play out. And
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: there are specific examples online of how you can work
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: towards implementing these things into your relationship and in how
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: you view yourself.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: So if it's.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: Something you want to look into, I would encourage you
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: to make sure, as I said at the top, that
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: it's a good source, because I've found a lot that
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: I thought we're just trying to sell you something in
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: a way that I did not appreciate, but it exists,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: so you can look that up. And to wrap us up,
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I should mention there is a new push for something
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: called pro dependence. Here's a quote about it from Psychology Today.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Pro Dependence is an attachment based theory of human dependency,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: which by definition states that those who partner with an
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: active addict are loving people who may be caught in
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: circumstances beyond their ability to healthfully cope. Moreover, their desire
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: to help the addict and all related actions toward helping
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the addict demonstrate nothing more than a normal and healthy
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: attempt to remain connected to a failing loved one while
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: facing extraordinarily difficult circumstances. So this is just trying to
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: take out the.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: Kind of negative m hm.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: You're beer wrong for doing this, you're wrong for caring
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: about this person. There was also a point I thought
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: I included it, but I don't. Maybe I did say it,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: but I'll say it again. A lot of times, you know,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: addiction can happen slowly, and maybe it's not there when
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: you get in a relationship too. That's not to really
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: compare one is better than the other, but that's just
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: to say, like, I feel like people are always framing
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: it as you knew what you were getting into, and
• 27:26
  Speaker 2: that's not always the case, and even if you knew,
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: you might not have known completely. And even so it's
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: just a very judgy take. And so I don't really
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: know what pro dependence is really new. I don't know
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: where it's going to go. But I'm glad at least
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: these conversations are happening and that we're not framing it
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: as such a negative thing to care about people.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I don't know. No, Yeah, it was a lot to
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: navigate through.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: I have to say, this is a big conversation, especially
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: when you start breaking down types of relationships, types of individuals,
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: and what it looks like here. Because you're right when
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: you talk about addictive personalities with co mobilities that do
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: intersect with code independency. It's a whole different conversation. It's
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: a whole new support group that you have to create
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: because it is like very specialized, and it needs to
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: be because there are differences and minute details that make
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: a giant change in the way treatment is given if
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: there is indeed need for treatment. And again, some people,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: as like the new phrase goes, they want to be here,
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: They're exactly where they want to be again.
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: I like my parents.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: I reference that's exactly where my mother chose and would
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: choose to be again and get it again. And I
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: think as much as I don't love that relationship, like
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: for myself. I love their relationship because they are able
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: to work it out. Of course, no relationship is perfect.
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: I don't want that or myself ever if I ever
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: get to the point that I don't have friends or
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: I feel like, like, let's say I were to have children,
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: which is almost too late right now for me unless
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: I adopt or whatever, and they were look and ask
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: did you ever have friends? Because I did not think
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: my mom would name names of like who and not
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: realizing that these were friends once upon a time because
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: she hadn't talked two in years and years and years,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: because all she talks to is her families. So like,
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: that would not be the thing that I would want.
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: I would want, you know, them, to know and see
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: these other people in understanding that the yes, I had
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: a different life once.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, every conversation we have has this wrinkle, in my opinion,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: But you can't remove people from the environment they grew
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: up in exactly. So I can look at my parents'
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: relationship and be, you know, have all of these personal
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: I don't want that, and I don't honestly sometimes I'd
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: be like, I don't think this is good, but they
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: grew up in that, and that's like you said, that
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: was the goal and they were happy.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: So it's hard to remove that.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: From any situation, right, It's really easy to judge.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: This is what I've basically took away from this.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Is that all of these situations I was reading about
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: are complicated and people have felt that they can judge
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: them from the outside without giving it any kind of
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: real thought other than that's so sad, But people care
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: about people. When I was reading this, I kind of
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: took away from it that the concern is when the
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: tendencies are extreme. That's what I would say, like a
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: really extreme and perhaps consistent because as humans, we do
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: care about people. We worry about people. That's completely natural.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: But when it's negatively impacting your life and your health
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: over a long term, that's when I think it's time
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: to ask the questions. Because I did read some articles
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: about people who had a loved one who had cancer
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: or had some kind of illness that was debilitating and
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: kind of constant, but they were saying the difference was,
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: you know, the worry was always there, but it didn't
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: completely like they weren't completely subordinate to it, like their
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: whole personality and life and everything didn't go away. Because
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: of it, but they were worried and it became a
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: huge part of their life because you care about that person, right,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: but you still held on to who you are exactly.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: Well, listeners, now it's your time to send your angry
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: emails if you have a hopefully not hopefully I did
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: an okay job on this, but please let us know
• 32:07
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• 32:12
  Speaker 2: you would like to share, or any clarifications or resources
• 32:17
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• 32:21
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• 32:24
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• 32:26
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• 32:28
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• 32:31
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• 32:32
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• 32:35
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• 32:38
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• 32:41
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