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26. Navigating Internal Conflict: Lessons from Family, Resilience, and Ancestral Energy with Kathy Tracey · Constellations and all that...

• 0:00
  Tracy: Kiora and welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:03
  Tracy: I'm your host, Tracy Cartwright, and together we will be exploring the world of family constellations with facilitators for and clients from around the world, looking at different perspectives and experiences in the work, having a cup of tea, and just chatting with some friends around their experiences in constellations.
• 0:23
  Tracy: We'd love for you to join us.
• 0:25
  Tracy: I hope that you enjoy this series as much as I have loved making it.
• 0:33
  Tracy: Kia, everyone, welcome to Constellations and all that.
• 0:37
  Tracy: Today I have the pleasure of talking to Kathy Tracy.
• 0:41
  Tracy: It's been a while since we've had a catch up, but I'm gonna invite Kathy to share a little bit about herself before we get into some juicy conversation.
• 0:49
  Tracy: Welcome, Kathy.
• 0:51
  Kathy: Thanks Tracy.
• 0:51
  Kathy: It's great to be here.
• 0:53
  Kathy: Uh, so introduce myself.
• 0:55
  Kathy: Well, so I. Have been kind of in amongst the constellations world, I guess, for 15 ish years.
• 1:04
  Kathy: I'm a systemic coach.
• 1:06
  Kathy: I mainly work with leaders, so sort of a leadership coach.
• 1:10
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 1:10
  Tracy: Um,
• 1:11
  Kathy: and I run quite a lot of leadership, you know, workshops and training outside of pure constellations, but always taking a systemic approach.
• 1:19
  Kathy: I, uh, was born in, but I spent 30 years over in the uk.
• 1:26
  Kathy: Uh, and 25 of those in a little tiny island called Guernsey.
• 1:31
  Kathy: Um, uh, yeah, ran my own business there and yeah, I don't know.
• 1:39
  Kathy: What else do you wanna know?
• 1:42
  Tracy: Oh, well, we'll, we'll, we'll see what else pops up.
• 1:44
  Tracy: But you just said ginsey, so my, um.
• 1:49
  Tracy: My DNA profile has just been updated.
• 1:53
  Tracy: 'cause they do this, you know, they'll update their programs and it said ey.
• 1:58
  Tracy: Oh huh.
• 1:59
  Tracy: But it was saying, um, Breton, B-R-E-T-O-N.
• 2:03
  Kathy: Briton
• 2:05
  Tracy: Breton.
• 2:05
  Tracy: Is that what they call themselves?
• 2:07
  Tracy: There?
• 2:07
  Tracy: Is it?
• 2:08
  Kathy: So Briton it, so Breon comes from Brittany in France, which is the closest part of France to Guernsey.
• 2:16
  Kathy: Aha.
• 2:17
  Kathy: Uh, and close enough to row too, if you happen to be a rower, which I was when I was there.
• 2:23
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 2:24
  Kathy: Britain and France, uh, the people, they're called Reon.
• 2:28
  Kathy: Well, there you go.
• 2:29
  Kathy: A lot of Sey French, uh, comes from that part of the world.
• 2:34
  Kathy: Uh, and 'cause Guernsey has a patois language, which is a, I suppose you'd call it Guernsey French, but it is different from French.
• 2:42
  Kathy: So it is a, it is a Patois, um, that's derived from that.
• 2:48
  Tracy: Okay, so you were const, you were working in your constellation field in Guernsey?
• 2:53
  Kathy: Yes.
• 2:54
  Kathy: Yeah, that's when I first came across it.
• 2:55
  Kathy: Um, I was working in Guernsey, uh, and I was presenting, actually at a conference in Greece.
• 3:03
  Kathy: That's a weird non link on team coaching.
• 3:07
  Kathy: And when I was there, John Whittington was also there doing some constellations.
• 3:15
  Kathy: Kind of taster sessions.
• 3:18
  Kathy: And myself and a couple of colleagues said, what's that?
• 3:23
  Kathy: Sounds interesting.
• 3:24
  Kathy: Should we go and have a look?
• 3:25
  Kathy: And we went and had a look and I ended up being a representative and I was blown away and intrigued and curious.
• 3:34
  Kathy: And that started my journey.
• 3:37
  Tracy: Ah, fantastic.
• 3:38
  Tracy: John Whittington, I, I, yeah, I enjoy his, his work.
• 3:43
  Tracy: That's brilliant.
• 3:44
  Tracy: Okay.
• 3:46
  Tracy: I didn't realize that about you.
• 3:47
  Tracy: I know a few things about you.
• 3:48
  Tracy: I know that you've done some amazing, like you shared earlier about rowing and you've had some amazing events there.
• 3:56
  Tracy: Would you like to share a little bit about that?
• 3:58
  Tracy: And then we'll talk about the signs in the background.
• 4:02
  Kathy: I, um, yeah, so I love an adventure that's kind of part of my DNA somewhere and I'm keen on sport and growing up, uh, I was kind of in that era of we didn't really have any female sports role models.
• 4:19
  Kathy: Uh, and I often think my life might've been a bit different if we did.
• 4:24
  Kathy: Uh, so I felt like I was often kind of beating a path that really probably didn't need quite as much energy as I had to put to it.
• 4:33
  Kathy: So I, uh, started in kayak, uh, and I represented New Zealand in Flatwater, kayaking.
• 4:41
  Kathy: And then when I moved to Guernsey, I started rowing.
• 4:46
  Kathy: Somebody rang me up and said, oh, we hear you are a rower.
• 4:50
  Kathy: So I said, no, I've never rowed.
• 4:52
  Kathy: I've rode a surf boat, but no.
• 4:54
  Kathy: I can kayak.
• 4:55
  Kathy: And they were like, oh, that's, they'll do.
• 4:56
  Kathy: It's all the same.
• 4:59
  Kathy: It really isn't.
• 5:00
  Kathy: Anyway, I joined the rowing club.
• 5:02
  Kathy: I had a lovely, lovely group of friends there.
• 5:04
  Kathy: It was super good fun.
• 5:06
  Kathy: Uh, and we eventually, our big adventure was rowing across the Atlantic with three other women, and we became the first women's fours to row an ocean.
• 5:17
  Kathy: So we got a world record and yeah.
• 5:20
  Kathy: So, and what's great is it's, it's a bit of a have, but I'll always hold that world record because we were the first, so it doesn't matter, you know, everybody does it faster these days and better and all that.
• 5:32
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 5:32
  Kathy: We get to hold the, the, I don't know, the, the joy of being first.
• 5:36
  Kathy: So
• 5:37
  Tracy: that was absolutely that.
• 5:38
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:39
  Tracy: I remember you sharing that with me when I met you.
• 5:41
  Tracy: It was like, what?
• 5:43
  Tracy: Wow.
• 5:44
  Tracy: I can't even imagine what, what it takes to, to do something that like that.
• 5:50
  Kathy: I think, I think a decent level of ignorance was about to turn up.
• 5:57
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 5:57
  Tracy: I do quite a bit of other things with a decent level of ignorance too, so I guess I do know a little bit about that.
• 6:02
  Tracy: There you go.
• 6:04
  Tracy: I love, we were talking bit earlier, I love your sign in the background.
• 6:07
  Tracy: So you've just completed another amazing, um, event.
• 6:12
  Tracy: And for those who aren't viewing this.
• 6:15
  Tracy: It says, Kathy, remember, pain is only the French word for bread.
• 6:21
  Tracy: And then, um, just 7.2 kilometers to champagne.
• 6:27
  Tracy: Mm. Nice.
• 6:28
  Tracy: So we, can you share with the, um, listeners what was that from?
• 6:34
  Kathy: Yeah, so just this weekend just gone, I, uh, made an attempt on 102 kilometer trail race.
• 6:44
  Kathy: In ROT New Zealand, and I honestly didn't know whether I was gonna make it.
• 6:49
  Kathy: I'm 62 years old now and it seems like a ridiculous thing to do, but I decided that even if I got to the start line without being injured and got all the training done, that would be a huge goal and you know, a fantastic effort.
• 7:03
  Kathy: Yeah, so I went for it and actually did really well.
• 7:07
  Kathy: I had a fantastic preparation.
• 7:09
  Kathy: I had fantastic support.
• 7:11
  Kathy: Um, I'm much better these days at asking for help, something I was not so good at when I was younger.
• 7:17
  Kathy: And yeah, I got some great nutritional advice.
• 7:21
  Kathy: I had a, a running coach and I have to tell you, like 18 months ago I was too.
• 7:28
  Kathy: I was like, I feeling like I was too embarrassed to go out running because I was old and fat and wobbly, and people would laugh and I could only like shuffle and.
• 7:39
  Kathy: You know, blah, blah, all that stuff.
• 7:42
  Kathy: And I just had a good talk to myself about my internal voice and how it wasn't serving me, and I should just tell to say, thank you very much.
• 7:50
  Kathy: It's very nice to look after me, however, I choose a different path.
• 7:54
  Kathy: And so I feel super proud of myself that I've actually taken this journey because it feels like I'm coming back to myself.
• 8:03
  Kathy: This is, you know, sport activity.
• 8:08
  Kathy: Adventure has always been a big part of me, and I kind of let it slip for a while and it wasn't doing me any favors, and I now feel energized.
• 8:18
  Kathy: I feel like I've got my IV back.
• 8:21
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 8:21
  Tracy: So, you know, so many women that I'm talking about too at the moment, and particularly women, the conversation hasn't really come up with men, but with women, and they're saying it's about, they're finding themselves again and they're.
• 8:37
  Tracy: They're taking deeper care of themselves.
• 8:40
  Tracy: There's so much more, um, awareness around self.
• 8:45
  Tracy: That's super good.
• 8:46
  Tracy: Mm, I'm really pleased to hear that.
• 8:48
  Tracy: Super good.
• 8:49
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 8:50
  Tracy: So systemic constellations, and you work mostly organizational coaching in that field.
• 8:56
  Tracy: Wanna share a little bit about that for Yeah, because sometimes people don't realize that constellations isn't just a family system.
• 9:05
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 9:05
  Kathy: Um, yeah, so I, I could probably almost say never, but I never say never.
• 9:10
  Kathy: But I very, very rarely do any family constellation work.
• 9:15
  Kathy: Certainly not set up as family work.
• 9:18
  Kathy: So we are all part of families, obviously, regardless of whether we're at work and we're in an organization, you know, so, so there are of course always traces of that, that that flows through organizational constellations, but we don't really.
• 9:34
  Kathy: Open with the mandate of, uh, a question about family with, of course the major caveat of when you work with a family business.
• 9:45
  Kathy: 'cause it's usually the questions often, often, often come back to a family dynamic or a family pattern, uh, or a loyalty or disloyalty or hidden loyalty that is showing up in the business.
• 10:01
  Kathy: So.
• 10:02
  Kathy: I guess the main difference with organizational constellations is that the, the kind of issues that you tend to be exploring are slightly different in the sense that you are often looking at the health of the organizational system rather than the family dynamic.
• 10:20
  Kathy: So, you know what's turning up, what is, you know, the same as in a family.
• 10:25
  Kathy: The, the principals are the same,
• 10:28
  Tracy: so
• 10:29
  Kathy: you know, you are setting up.
• 10:31
  Kathy: A physical manifestation, if you like, or a representation of a dynamic in a business.
• 10:39
  Kathy: And then, much like with a family constellation, you are looking at where are the, where are the energies, what's, you know, what's being attracted, what's being rejected, what's not being talked about, what secrets are, you know, drawing energy from the system, all that stuff.
• 10:59
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 11:00
  Tracy: I remember talking about how he had worked with a, a business, this is just in one of the examples that he gave, and he was saying that, you know, there was a new CEO had come in and the business was, even though it was still producing, it was going downhill quite rapidly.
• 11:18
  Tracy: And this person had lots of great credentials and everything and, and on paperwork it should have been going well, however.
• 11:25
  Tracy: When Jan Jacob had worked with him, with the whole company, it showed up that the tea lady had been there since the day the company began.
• 11:35
  Tracy: So even though she was the, the person who delivered the cups of tea around the, the space, she had a, a higher position in the hierarchy and the energy wasn't being, or the respect wasn't being given there as well.
• 11:48
  Tracy: So they did some work around that, giving her the place, you know, like she came first, blah, blah, blah.
• 11:53
  Tracy: Um.
• 11:54
  Tracy: And how things shifted really quickly for that.
• 11:57
  Kathy: Yeah, it's super interesting that, so the longevity in an organization is a really interesting one because it often is it, and exactly in your example, it's often different to the hierarchy, right?
• 12:12
  Kathy: So, uh, more senior people can be newer, but in a systemic sense, those who have been there longer have priority.
• 12:22
  Kathy: Yes,
• 12:23
  Tracy: yes.
• 12:23
  Tracy: Longevity, but yeah, that's a better word.
• 12:25
  Tracy: Exactly.
• 12:26
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 12:26
  Kathy: So it's, it's, it's a bit like, you know, respecting your elders and some of the stuff you do with ancestral in a, in a kind of a tiny way.
• 12:34
  Kathy: Um, but it's still that same principle of those who come first have priority in terms of their contribution to the system.
• 12:42
  Kathy: And when leaders, and we see this a lot in teams, when leaders come in and they, I often get this as a presenting issue.
• 12:51
  Kathy: I've come in as a new leader and this old guy or woman or whatever, um, just doesn't respect me and it's really hard to deal with them 'cause they're older than me, they think they know more.
• 13:04
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 13:04
  Tracy: And
• 13:05
  Kathy: it's really, you know, asking people to think about, you know, what if that's true, what if it's true that they do know more than you?
• 13:15
  Kathy: And it's not the question they wanna, they wanna really consider, they really would much prefer me to say, oh, here's some techniques for you to put them in their place.
• 13:24
  Tracy: Yeah, I'll, I'll fix that for you.
• 13:25
  Tracy: You'll be right.
• 13:30
  Kathy: Um, it's interesting how quickly it moves.
• 13:32
  Kathy: If you can get a leader to sit with a person and ask them about their history in the organization and to.
• 13:43
  Kathy: Openness.
• 13:43
  Kathy: Listen to what it was like for them over the last 35 years that they've been there and they learn a whole lot.
• 13:52
  Kathy: Mm. With their respect.
• 13:53
  Kathy: And then suddenly it settles the, you know, the person is acknowledged and once they're acknowledged, you know, properly acknowledged,
• 14:01
  Tracy: yeah.
• 14:03
  Kathy: Then they don't have to resist.
• 14:05
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 14:05
  Tracy: Because the systems built on.
• 14:10
  Tracy: Like you say, those who come first, what was put into it?
• 14:13
  Tracy: The energy that's been there, all of that that's been held in the space.
• 14:17
  Tracy: Hmm.
• 14:18
  Tracy: Do you just mainly work with private or like individual companies or are you working or have worked with government or, or schools or how do you, you
• 14:31
  Kathy: know, a bit of a mix?
• 14:32
  Kathy: It's a bit of a mix.
• 14:33
  Kathy: Um, and where I. I'm often using this with individuals in coaching.
• 14:42
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 14:44
  Kathy: I'll be coaching an individual and then we'll come to a place in that coaching where they'll say, would it, would it be possible for you to come and work with the team?
• 14:54
  Kathy: And that's, um, often then when I can get in and kind of do a little bit more with the group, which is better, um, yeah, a little more impact.
• 15:05
  Kathy: Um, but I also work with, um, groups like, so I work at Outward Bound.
• 15:11
  Kathy: Yes.
• 15:11
  Kathy: And I do a women in leadership course down there.
• 15:14
  Kathy: And we quite often end up in a constellation.
• 15:16
  Kathy: It's not particularly part of the course, but quite often we end up doing sometimes a structured constellation, so something about transition.
• 15:25
  Kathy: So we get people to move from where they are now to a transition space just to experience what's.
• 15:32
  Kathy: What's happening for them in that transition?
• 15:34
  Kathy: And then what's gonna, how do they want to move forward as they leave the course?
• 15:39
  Kathy: Because those Outward Bound courses can be pretty life changing for people.
• 15:43
  Kathy: They, you know, they get a, get a
• 15:46
  Tracy: huge Absolutely.
• 15:47
  Tracy: And what do you do with that, right?
• 15:48
  Tracy: When you've, when you've had that amazing experience and things have shifted in your, and you are going back into the world a different being,
• 15:58
  Kathy: your system hasn't changed, but.
• 16:00
  Kathy: You know, so you're going back into the old system as a kind of a, with a new, fresh,
• 16:05
  Tracy: yeah.
• 16:06
  Kathy: Whatever it's that you are taking.
• 16:07
  Kathy: And of course it's very easy then just to get sucked back into how I was in the system before I left.
• 16:13
  Kathy: 'cause the systemic dynamics are so strong.
• 16:16
  Kathy: So getting people to recognize that and also not to fight the, you know, there'll be people that they go back to who.
• 16:26
  Kathy: I don't want the new version.
• 16:29
  Kathy: Mm-hmm.
• 16:29
  Kathy: I happy with the old version.
• 16:30
  Kathy: Thank you very much.
• 16:32
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 16:32
  Kathy: Um, particularly with the women's course, where sometimes we are dealing with people who say, oh, you know, I do everything for the family.
• 16:40
  Kathy: And when you dig around into it, they're literally taking responsibility for everything in the family rather than having, um, some balance about that.
• 16:51
  Kathy: Uh, and so that rebalancing can be pretty painful for others.
• 16:55
  Tracy: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:56
  Tracy: And as you are sharing that, I'm thinking about, you know, it's like a people who've gone in for help for addiction, um, things like that.
• 17:03
  Tracy: And they're coming home to a system where, or back to friends and community where nobody else has done the work or shifted and you are coming back into it, right into that space of, of being in a different energy, a different level.
• 17:21
  Tracy: I sometimes notice that myself, like in this work, when we go to intensives or we've done a lot of training and stuff like that, and you know that you've peeled back the layers and we come home and I'm like, who am I with?
• 17:35
  Tracy: My husband?
• 17:37
  Tracy: Who am I in this house with my son?
• 17:40
  Tracy: Having the, having those steps, the resources to, to take it forward,
• 17:48
  Kathy: acknowledge that.
• 17:50
  Kathy: You know, we are parts of so many different systems.
• 17:53
  Tracy: Mm. And,
• 17:55
  Kathy: and how we navigate those more consciously.
• 17:58
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:00
  Kathy: It's super, it's actually super helpful because although once you notice, you can't stop noticing, which is, you know, unfortunate sometimes when you think, oh, okay, I need to wind my neck in here and actually recognize that somebody else needs to have a turn, whatever it might be.
• 18:17
  Kathy: But yeah, I think, I think that.
• 18:19
  Kathy: Just that freedom to not know and to, you know, just go, oh, the system is different.
• 18:27
  Kathy: That's interesting.
• 18:29
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:30
  Kathy: It's gonna be, rather than, here's my plan.
• 18:34
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:35
  Tracy: I'm coming back and I'm gonna change everything.
• 18:37
  Tracy: I think it's gonna be different.
• 18:39
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 18:41
  Tracy: Um, have you got any examples of anything that you feel like that you can share with complete, you know.
• 18:47
  Tracy: Confidence that there's not gonna breach confidentiality or that you're comfortable in sharing.
• 18:52
  Tracy: So,
• 18:54
  Kathy: um, you mean as in terms of uh, like changes with a client, that sort of thing?
• 18:59
  Tracy: Yeah, maybe, yeah, something like that.
• 19:02
  Kathy: In terms of team, like working with teams, um, and just thinking of a, probably kind of touched on the example really, but, um, a team where a new younger manager had.
• 19:16
  Kathy: Gone in and had been really struggling with people who'd been there for a long time.
• 19:21
  Kathy: We pulled together a team day and we did a constellation around belonging.
• 19:31
  Kathy: Really was, was kind of the, the sense, um, and the question was around how do we, how do we have a team where we all feel we belong?
• 19:41
  Kathy: So there'd been quite a bit of churn.
• 19:43
  Kathy: So this new manager had come in.
• 19:45
  Kathy: And, and staff had started to leave, um, and the manager's senior was the one who called me and said, can you come and just see what's going on here?
• 19:58
  Kathy: And when we did the constellation, there was a, a sense from a couple of the people who had remained, uh, in the team, that there was a, how did they describe it?
• 20:12
  Kathy: Like a. I think they described it as a sense of, uh, disassociation.
• 20:18
  Kathy: I can't remember the words they used, but it was, to me, it came across like they all felt scattered.
• 20:22
  Kathy: Scattered was the word.
• 20:23
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 20:23
  Kathy: They all felt scattered.
• 20:25
  Kathy: Um, and the manager's approach to that had been, let's get the task to very task orientated.
• 20:33
  Kathy: Let's get the task right.
• 20:34
  Kathy: 'cause if we've all got one goal that we're all working towards, um, you know, we'll draw together as we move towards that goal.
• 20:42
  Kathy: And often that would work, right?
• 20:44
  Kathy: That, you know, in a, in a business sense, that kind of makes it's logical, right?
• 20:49
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 20:49
  Kathy: And often that work of a team can come together around a goal and can work together, it's all fine.
• 20:55
  Kathy: But there was something else going on that wasn't allowing that to happen.
• 20:59
  Kathy: And what we discovered through the Constellation, uh, was that there had actually been a manager in this team who had been, the story was that they'd been made redundant.
• 21:10
  Kathy: But the truth of it was, what unfolded was that they had actually been, um, there was a fraud involved, so they'd actually been caught.
• 21:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 21:26
  Kathy: Um, but the, that was a secret and nobody was supposed to know about that.
• 21:30
  Kathy: And that had made this, people wanted to belong but didn't want to belong.
• 21:39
  Kathy: Somehow knew there was something wrong with the team and wrong with the manager and the new manager had somehow, you know, was representing almost this ex manager's energy.
• 21:52
  Kathy: So it was super interesting.
• 21:54
  Kathy: Uh, and once that secret came out, we got it verified actually.
• 21:59
  Kathy: Um, 'cause there were a few people who were kind of shaking their heads and going, but I wasn't even here then, so I don't even know about it.
• 22:04
  Kathy: So how could it be affecting me?
• 22:06
  Kathy: And I explained to them how these, you know, things kind of linger in systems.
• 22:11
  Kathy: And it was super interesting because the team had two empty spaces.
• 22:16
  Kathy: They employed two new people with this new bit of knowledge and no more secrets, and the team remained stable for at least three years after that.
• 22:26
  Tracy: Wow.
• 22:28
  Kathy: It's super interesting.
• 22:29
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 22:30
  Tracy: All those things.
• 22:31
  Tracy: And when you think about all the.
• 22:33
  Tracy: Businesses, organizations and that, that have been built on secrets and deceit, fraud, I wanna say murder.
• 22:45
  Tracy: Like there's all sorts of things that happen over, over history, you know, if you're going back in time.
• 22:50
  Tracy: Uh, and I could think of some of those bigger companies.
• 22:53
  Tracy: Interesting.
• 22:54
  Tracy: Hey.
• 22:58
  Kathy: I wished I'd had the opportunity to go and work in this organization.
• 23:01
  Kathy: But, um, I ended up coaching somebody who came outta an organization where the head of the organization, the CEO, had committed suicide and the organization was in all sorts of trouble, no surprise.
• 23:13
  Kathy: Um, and what they'd done is they'd gotten a new CEO and they'd moved on and that all of their messaging was about, we are moving on from this.
• 23:22
  Kathy: Um, it's very sad, but we are moving on.
• 23:25
  Kathy: Nobody got the chance to.
• 23:28
  Kathy: Grieve properly, only individually, you know, and I just thought that was a, that was a definite kind of place where this sort of systemic understanding would've helped that organization.
• 23:42
  Kathy: The organization actually closed down and it was big.
• 23:45
  Kathy: It was a big, um, yeah.
• 23:48
  Kathy: So you see it, you know, where people don't, you know, that basic premise of systemic work.
• 23:53
  Kathy: You know, acknowledge what is, allow, what is to be.
• 23:58
  Kathy: You know, just the acknowledgement, you know, we have had a CEO who has, and that has a huge impact on all of the people around.
• 24:14
  Tracy: Absolutely.
• 24:15
  Tracy: So what are you doing now in the way of, um, 'cause you had a business, you had a business partner for a while and, and then I think Covid changed things there.
• 24:24
  Tracy: That's right.
• 24:26
  Tracy: Just a little bit right for everybody.
• 24:29
  Kathy: Well, it wasn't for us actually.
• 24:31
  Kathy: It wasn't so much that it was, um, so my business partner moved to Spain and was kind, it was one of those gorgeous little partnerships that we had going, and I just said, my, honestly, my heart's not in it.
• 24:46
  Kathy: Um, we were doing it together.
• 24:48
  Kathy: When we weren't doing it together, it didn't feel the same, so I just pulled the plug on it.
• 24:54
  Kathy: I'm, you know, I'm very lucky that, you know, I can do that.
• 24:58
  Kathy: So, yeah, now I'm working mainly with a, a few organizations.
• 25:04
  Kathy: So I, as I get to my senior years, I'm working less often and I'm really working with people who I feel or who express, you know, the desire to change things.
• 25:20
  Kathy: So I cherry pick a little bit, is the honest, yep.
• 25:24
  Kathy: I've got a few clients who, uh, you know, larger organizations.
• 25:28
  Kathy: I work with them pretty, um, regularly.
• 25:31
  Kathy: Uh, and that's everything from coaching to running leadership training and Outward Bound courses, that kind of stuff.
• 25:38
  Kathy: So just a real mix, um, which keeps me well occupied, uh, in between mad training for whatever's coming next in my, in my mad adventures.
• 25:52
  Tracy: I love that you were able to, that you're doing the Outward Bound though, 'cause that is so empowering.
• 25:57
  Kathy: I love it.
• 25:58
  Tracy: Yeah, and And adding the systemic side to it as well.
• 26:02
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 26:02
  Kathy: Super.
• 26:04
  Kathy: Being out in nature, there was a little bit of a, I don't know, time when running a women's only course was sort of going a little bit out of style.
• 26:17
  Tracy: So
• 26:18
  Kathy: people were saying, we do you really need to run just women only courses.
• 26:22
  Kathy: I've always been quite staunch about they get something different and yes, it would be lovely if, if it was the same, would it?
• 26:32
  Kathy: I don't know.
• 26:33
  Kathy: But what I know is that when women come together to do something that they find challenging, the way that they support each other is different.
• 26:43
  Kathy: It's the bond has been incredible.
• 26:48
  Kathy: I work with mixed groups and you know, they have a good bond as well, but there's something different.
• 26:53
  Kathy: There's something just in the energy and I love it.
• 26:56
  Kathy: I, it just gives me a huge buzz and, you know, we're putting people in these challenging situations physically that really stretch them out into what's possible, but the confidence levels and the self-esteem that comes from 'em.
• 27:14
  Kathy: Super good.
• 27:15
  Kathy: Super good.
• 27:16
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 27:18
  Tracy: Need more of that in the world.
• 27:19
  Tracy: Hey, more of it.
• 27:21
  Kathy: Sometimes I have to, I shouldn't say this out loud, but sometimes I have to pinch myself that I'm being paid for it.
• 27:25
  Kathy: You know?
• 27:25
  Kathy: It's like, this is amazing.
• 27:27
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Tracy: I just had someone, 'cause I have a, a side business that I make cacao.
• 27:33
  Tracy: I just had someone come and, and we were just chatting about, um.
• 27:37
  Tracy: What I'm up to this year, and she's like, oh look.
• 27:40
  Tracy: She says, I just love watching you doing what you love.
• 27:43
  Tracy: And she said, does it feel like working?
• 27:45
  Tracy: I said, not really because it's, it's my passion.
• 27:48
  Tracy: I'm loving it, you know, I, and I can mix both my worlds, you know, make a cow and, and constellations and, and then I get to travel and explore and yeah, living my dream.
• 28:00
  Tracy: Really?
• 28:00
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:02
  Kathy: It takes us time to get there, eh?
• 28:04
  Kathy: Yeah,
• 28:06
  Tracy: yeah, yeah.
• 28:07
  Tracy: It didn't happen overnight, for sure.
• 28:09
  Kathy: It doesn't, but it's, it's a journey worth having.
• 28:13
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 28:14
  Tracy: I know you that you're working, obviously organizational, structural that way, systemic in your family life, like, do you transfer that into,
• 28:25
  Kathy: I think inevitably I have a systemic view.
• 28:30
  Kathy: So I don't think I'd turn that off at any point.
• 28:35
  Tracy: Can you explain systemic view for those who, who are using this?
• 28:38
  Tracy: Yes.
• 28:39
  Kathy: That's a very good question.
• 28:41
  Kathy: For me, it's always being aware that there are forces around us that we're not aware of, and they're part because part of systems that interlock with each other.
• 28:54
  Kathy: I heard a really nice explanation of it.
• 28:57
  Kathy: I was on a course in London.
• 28:59
  Kathy: Recently a family, actually a family dynamics course on siblings, which was super interesting.
• 29:04
  Kathy: And the woman who was running the workshop said, imagine a child's mobile and all the little part when the wind blows and one part blows, everything starts moving and changing.
• 29:21
  Kathy: And even if you try to move one little piece, everything else will be affected.
• 29:25
  Kathy: And I thought that was a really nice way of explaining it to people who, you know, weren't, uh, weren't so familiar.
• 29:32
  Kathy: So I guess I'm aware of that.
• 29:35
  Kathy: So I know that if I'm, um, you know, like I did this amazing run at the weekend and I was really conscious of the other people around me and the impact that everybody was having on this event.
• 29:50
  Kathy: So all the.
• 29:52
  Kathy: Volunteers, all the little stories that were coming about why people were doing this.
• 29:57
  Kathy: You know, there was people who were running for, they'd lost somebody and they were doing it in their memory or, you know, which always puts a tear to my eye or, you know, I was going, walking alongside a guy at one point who just, he had this cool nickname.
• 30:13
  Kathy: And I was saying to him like, what's the name about?
• 30:16
  Kathy: And he was chatting to me and it is just like this little world opened up for me that I knew nothing about.
• 30:22
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 30:23
  Kathy: And it's just that being curious enough to see what other things are, are out there and suddenly you're connected to these things.
• 30:31
  Kathy: And so in family life, you know, you think about if I take an action, what's gonna be the other reaction that happens to it?
• 30:40
  Kathy: You know, if I move my piece of the mobile, what else happens?
• 30:42
  Kathy: So if I'm taking on, you know, a big event, what's the effect on others and how do I make that okay?
• 30:53
  Kathy: Or, um, how do I make it a positive experience for everybody?
• 30:58
  Kathy: So, yeah, so it's, it is just kind of being aware of the, kind of the shifting parts.
• 31:03
  Kathy: What was super cool was at the end of the run, my niece appeared.
• 31:08
  Kathy: She drove for five hours to see me come across the finish line.
• 31:11
  Kathy: Oh
• 31:12
  Tracy: wow.
• 31:13
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 31:15
  Kathy: And, and it was something that I hadn't thought about and now she's signing up to a run with me.
• 31:21
  Kathy: So these little bits of, um, you know, inspiring others just by her actions and, and trust me, seeing me come across finish line after 102 kilometers.
• 31:31
  Kathy: Wasn't that inspiring?
• 31:35
  Kathy: It was not pretty.
• 31:36
  Kathy: Um, but it's, you know, I bet it
• 31:39
  Tracy: was inspiring.
• 31:39
  Tracy: No.
• 31:40
  Tracy: Whether it was pretty or not.
• 31:41
  Tracy: I bet it was inspiring.
• 31:43
  Kathy: Well, thank you.
• 31:44
  Kathy: But it's like the, you know, it's just being aware of those things about how your energy can influence others and, you know, I've had some really lovely messages from people saying, oh, you know, you really got me through that section.
• 31:57
  Kathy: Or, um, thanks for slowing down in the bush.
• 31:59
  Kathy: 'cause I think I would've got lost.
• 32:01
  Kathy: Or, I think that's a, it's a, it's an awareness of the fact you are not by yourself in your actions.
• 32:09
  Kathy: Are not just independent and how your actions both interact with others and how others interact with you.
• 32:16
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 32:17
  Tracy: Yeah, because I, I think a lot of people think systems 'cause it, 'cause systems can, like they morph right into other things, but people think it as it's a structure and there's a wall and you are either in the system or you are not.
• 32:33
  Tracy: But there's so much more to it like.
• 32:37
  Kathy: Yeah, definitely.
• 32:38
  Kathy: And of course, because we're, you know, and we have our internal systems as well, right?
• 32:43
  Kathy: Mm-hmm.
• 32:43
  Kathy: So, so I had a lot, you know, nice example.
• 32:48
  Kathy: Um, so I'd, I'd helped somebody on the run, um, for quite a few hours.
• 32:55
  Kathy: And then, uh, when I got to a, uh, another part, that same person was having problems.
• 33:03
  Kathy: And I had a little internal battle with myself because my blisters had just exploded and I was in a bit of pain and I could have stopped to walk with her.
• 33:16
  Kathy: And I talked to another guy she was with and said, she's in in trouble.
• 33:21
  Kathy: And he said, I'll go back.
• 33:23
  Kathy: So I carried on.
• 33:25
  Kathy: Now my internal voices were going, is that the right thing to do?
• 33:29
  Kathy: Shouldn't you stop?
• 33:30
  Kathy: Shouldn't you also go back with her?
• 33:33
  Kathy: And then the other voice was kind of going, you've already spent quite a few hours with her.
• 33:37
  Kathy: Your blisters have just exploded.
• 33:38
  Kathy: If you slow down, you might not make the end.
• 33:41
  Kathy: And you know, when I think about where these voices come from, and I can acknowledge that they're both true and just both a part of me, then I can be settled with it.
• 33:51
  Kathy: But if I try to, like, if I let them fight it out almost.
• 33:55
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 33:55
  Kathy: So that can become a problematic system for me.
• 33:58
  Tracy: So, and it takes a lot of energy to fight that out,
• 34:00
  Kathy: right?
• 34:01
  Kathy: Absolutely.
• 34:01
  Kathy: Which you don't have, I can tell you after nine, six kilometers.
• 34:05
  Kathy: So it's, but it's super interesting just how, you know, I think it's really interesting 'cause if I think about that, I, I think about it as my.
• 34:17
  Kathy: Mom's energy is the surely you should stop and be nice to her and like carry her over the finish line.
• 34:24
  Kathy: And my dad's energy, which is a bit more competitive, um, which I do lean towards, which is, you know, you are here on a race and you do on a finish and you've set yourself a goal and you're doing well and you know, and you've checked up on it.
• 34:36
  Kathy: So that's okay.
• 34:37
  Kathy: And you know, if I acknowledge that, you know, it's a simple example, but it's kind of, I acknowledge that there's, this is some of my ancestry coming out.
• 34:46
  Kathy: Just helps me to go, oh yeah, well I've got both those things.
• 34:49
  Kathy: That's okay.
• 34:50
  Kathy: I use one bit at one part of the race and one bit at another.
• 34:55
  Tracy: Yeah, that's a brilliant example and And it's amazing how I. I think we are doing so much of this tapping into this, but tipping into this, but without even being aware of it.
• 35:08
  Tracy: Right.
• 35:08
  Tracy: We haven't, we're not aware of how that happens.
• 35:10
  Tracy: And once we become aware, it's like, ah, okay.
• 35:14
  Tracy: Yeah, and I can, you can pull it a little bit more from one and, and a bit more from the other.
• 35:18
  Tracy: Um, and, and at the same time, some people are not even tapping into any of it.
• 35:26
  Kathy: And, and I think we can do ourselves a real disservice if.
• 35:30
  Kathy: Fighting it, it's back to that acknowledgement bit, right?
• 35:35
  Kathy: So my, I I quite often tell a story now.
• 35:38
  Kathy: My, um, when I was kayaker I was training for Olympics.
• 35:42
  Kathy: So it was quite high level at the national chance where I was either going to qualify for the Olympic training team or not.
• 35:50
  Kathy: My mum drove me up to the, to the lake and when I got in my boat for my race.
• 35:57
  Kathy: She came to the side of the, the jetty and she said to me, just do your best dear.
• 36:03
  Kathy: I nearly lost it.
• 36:05
  Kathy: 'cause it was like, you know, of course it was my world at that point, you know?
• 36:10
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 36:11
  Kathy: One years old or whatever I am.
• 36:13
  Kathy: And you know, like my whole life has been kayak.
• 36:15
  Kathy: I've been getting up at five o'clock in the morning and I've been, you know, like training four hours a day and blah, blah, blah.
• 36:22
  Kathy: And she goes, just do your best.
• 36:23
  Kathy: I, I honestly felt like punching her.
• 36:25
  Kathy: It was terrible.
• 36:27
  Kathy: That's my mother's energy.
• 36:28
  Kathy: Right?
• 36:28
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 36:28
  Kathy: That's like of course.
• 36:30
  Kathy: And what a beautiful thing to say.
• 36:31
  Kathy: But at the time, not a like it was so not where I was.
• 36:36
  Kathy: And I think about it now and I think about how, you know, it was like the perfect mothering instinct kind of thing to say what she was saying to me, it was, I love you.
• 36:45
  Kathy: No matter whether you fall out a boat or you do well or you don't do well, it's all okay with me.
• 36:50
  Kathy: What a lovely message.
• 36:51
  Kathy: I couldn't hear it at the time.
• 36:53
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 36:54
  Tracy: Is mom still around?
• 36:56
  Kathy: Sadly not.
• 36:57
  Kathy: We lost her just two years ago now.
• 37:00
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:01
  Tracy: But the same time as my mum.
• 37:04
  Kathy: Is
• 37:04
  Tracy: it transitioned?
• 37:05
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:06
  Tracy: Well, just a bit over, but, but at least it's a, definitely a changing time in finding yourself in a new way, isn't it?
• 37:14
  Tracy: When you, when your mum goes, it's a super
• 37:17
  Kathy: interesting shift that happens.
• 37:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 37:25
  Tracy: I've got a little picture of mum here that I'm always, and sometimes she's looking at me, one, it's always the same picture, but sometimes she's looking at me and I'm thinking, oh, I'm getting a message here, like a smile.
• 37:36
  Tracy: That feels good.
• 37:37
  Tracy: And other times it's like, what are you doing, Tracy?
• 37:41
  Tracy: She should be doing that.
• 37:43
  Kathy: Okay.
• 37:45
  Kathy: I.
• 37:49
  Kathy: I have a little bro that, um, was my mum's and I took it on my run with me.
• 37:53
  Kathy: I just attached it to my race vest.
• 37:56
  Tracy: Oh,
• 37:57
  Kathy: nice.
• 37:57
  Kathy: I took it, I did Everest Space Camp, um, 18 months ago about, and I took her, I took her up there as well.
• 38:05
  Kathy: So like, I'll show you some adventure mum.
• 38:07
  Kathy: Yep.
• 38:07
  Kathy: Attach it.
• 38:10
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 38:11
  Tracy: Well, I have this, and I'll put this on every now and then.
• 38:14
  Tracy: It's my mom.
• 38:15
  Tracy: My mom had this thing for crowns and tiaras, and it's just one of those checklist ones.
• 38:20
  Tracy: She had a few others around and it kind of became that little joke.
• 38:24
  Tracy: Mum being the queen.
• 38:25
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Tracy: Whenever there was something, she was a real, uh, royalist.
• 38:29
  Tracy: So whenever there was something on the tv, she'd go buy up a new tiara.
• 38:36
  Tracy: Had a bottle of bubbles and sit there and watch it.
• 38:39
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 38:40
  Tracy: Or a cup of tea, depending on what, what time of the day it was.
• 38:43
  Tracy: But uh, yeah, who would we be without the, the guidance from, from our parents, hey, and their systems
• 38:54
  Kathy: well that, that
• 38:55
  Tracy: come from, and all that's come influenced us,
• 38:59
  Kathy: I think about my dad's system.
• 39:01
  Kathy: He had rheumatic fever as a young child and they thought they were gonna lose him and he survived it, obviously.
• 39:09
  Kathy: Um, and you know, that resilience that kind of pushed through the hard things, all that sort of thing.
• 39:17
  Kathy: Sometimes I think, yeah, I think I got a bit of that off, off him.
• 39:23
  Kathy: Those, you know, don't let it beat you.
• 39:25
  Kathy: Kind of thoughts?
• 39:27
  Kathy: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Kathy: Kind of interesting where you can.
• 39:30
  Kathy: Pull those things from.
• 39:31
  Kathy: And if you, it's funny 'cause there's something about, you know, people sometimes say to me, oh, you are very, you know, resilient or, you know, you are very tough about, you know, when you do these things and it sometimes doesn't feel true.
• 39:44
  Kathy: Mm-hmm.
• 39:45
  Kathy: And, but when I link it to where I come from, from my origins, then it can feel more true.
• 39:53
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 39:54
  Kathy: Because of course, that's where it comes from.
• 39:56
  Kathy: It doesn't come from me, it doesn't start with me.
• 39:58
  Kathy: You know, so it's, I think that allows me then to be a little more certain or a little more just, just more grounded in it, I
• 40:08
  Tracy: guess.
• 40:08
  Tracy: Mm-hmm.
• 40:09
  Tracy: And maybe even accepting of it too, like be able to go sink into that a little bit more.
• 40:14
  Tracy: Yeah, I am.
• 40:15
  Tracy: There's resilience there.
• 40:16
  Tracy: It comes through me.
• 40:17
  Tracy: Oh, beautiful.
• 40:18
  Tracy: Well, thank you Kathy.
• 40:20
  Tracy: This has been a beautiful conversation.
• 40:22
  Tracy: Um, yeah.
• 40:24
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 40:25
  Tracy: And really chuffed that you made that.
• 40:28
  Tracy: Massive event on the weekend.
• 40:31
  Tracy: Thank you.
• 40:31
  Tracy: I don't think, uh, it's on my list, although recently I did.
• 40:36
  Tracy: Um, there's a, there's a mountain here that people often go, oh, I've just been at M Mount Maniah and I've always gone, why would you do that?
• 40:45
  Tracy: But after being away, we've been in Vietnam over the Christmas holidays and, and I'm out doing a lot more activity.
• 40:52
  Tracy: Last year was a real still stale year, or I couldn't call it stale.
• 40:56
  Tracy: It feels stale.
• 40:58
  Tracy: After Mum passed, there'd been a lot of stuff and I had some physical stuff come up.
• 41:03
  Tracy: So yeah, I guess my energy was stagnant and stale.
• 41:06
  Tracy: And then after going to Vietnam, I've sort of come back with a new vibrancy and reconnection to myself.
• 41:13
  Tracy: So I was thinking the other day, oh, I might go and have a go at mania.
• 41:18
  Tracy: And I thought caught myself saying that.
• 41:20
  Tracy: I was like, never thought I'd say that.
• 41:22
  Tracy: So, yeah.
• 41:24
  Tracy: So you're, you're an inspiration.
• 41:28
  Tracy: And I'll remember that in the back.
• 41:29
  Tracy: Well, your message in the back background paint is only the French word for bread.
• 41:35
  Tracy: Ooh, la la.
• 41:35
  Tracy: I love it.
• 41:39
  Kathy: I have to tell you though, that just 7.2 k to champagne, we got to the end and they said to me, do you want me to pop the champagne?
• 41:46
  Kathy: I went, no.
• 41:46
  Kathy: I'm gonna bed like 24 hours before I could face anything else.
• 41:52
  Tracy: Yeah, I can.
• 41:54
  Tracy: I can't imagine.
• 41:55
  Tracy: Oh,
• 41:58
  Kathy: pretty special.
• 41:59
  Kathy: Pretty special.
• 42:00
  Kathy: It's been lovely, lovely, lovely talking to you, Tracy.
• 42:03
  Kathy: Thank you so much.
• 42:03
  Kathy: Beautiful.
• 42:04
  Tracy: Oh, just before we, we finish, if anyone wanted to connect with you, is there a, how would they find you?
• 42:11
  Tracy: Uh, LinkedIn is the best place.
• 42:13
  Tracy: LinkedIn.
• 42:14
  Tracy: Beautiful.
• 42:16
  Tracy: Yeah.
• 42:16
  Tracy: Kathy Tracy on LinkedIn.
• 42:19
  Tracy: Fantastic.
• 42:21
  Tracy: Thank you for listening.
• 42:22
  Tracy: Head over to Instagram and tell me what's resonated for you with this episode.
• 42:27
  Tracy: You'll find me at Tracy dot Cartwright.
• 42:30
  Tracy: That's Tracy with no e dot Cartwright and the or head over to my website, Tracy cartwright.co.nz and receive a free audio with the gift from your ancestors.
• 42:43
  Tracy: So until next time, be kind to yourself and have fun doing it.