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Beyond Accommodation: Building Workplaces Where Everyone Can Thrive · Amplify: A Podcast Powered by Patient Voice Partners

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to Amplify, Elivating Patient Voices, a podcast powered by patient voice partners, where real stories spark bold conversations.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ursula Mann.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Brent Cordy.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Together, we're talking with patients, caregivers, and the healthcare change makers who are listening and taking action.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: From personal journeys to policy shifts, these are the voices shaping a healthcare system that listens.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: I'm here today with my co-host Anne-Marie.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_03: And on today's episode of Amplify, we're going to be chatting with Sidney Elaine Butler.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: She's the founder of Accessible Creates from several years ago.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And we're going to be chatting about what that means and what she does to help people, and really diving in as well to lived experience across disability, neurodiversity, and identity, putting this all together to help transform how organizations think about inclusion, hiring, and human-centered systems.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: This is a powerful blend today of a personal story and professional insight to make things work together and dismantle barriers and build workplaces where everyone can thrive.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: These are topics that are important to me.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm excited about today.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: And Anne Ray, I'm interested in your thoughts.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: As we were thinking about today's show, what are some things that came to mind as you were thinking about these topics?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: First of all, when I read a few of the things that Sydney has written, posted, the idea that they have taken challenges that they've faced in life and turned it into a way to make a living, expand understanding, set a new path for others.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: But also this idea that they're a young entrepreneur.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's a really interesting.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_04: I'm very curious about that.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: I love that.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: I've had the opportunity to chat with Sydney several times and leave motivated and inspired after conversations.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_03: On the young entrepreneur front, that's not easy.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's a daunting situation to kind of jump into and takes a lot of courage.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: We've had a number of entrepreneur stories shared back and forth.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_03: It takes a lot of courage.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: And being able to navigate that and set that up is pretty important.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_03: And on the inspiration front, just like you said, taking that personal experience to really turn things around and make a living out of it and drive change is impactful and incredible all at the same time.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_04: Isn't it great when you can do both?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: I think people are being honest.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, this is not what I envisioned.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't ask for that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that's true in Sydney's case or not, but you roll forward in life and make it work at times for some people.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: So that's incredible to be able to make changes and help people along the way, which is meaningful.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you for sharing that.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Well, with that, I'm gonna welcome Sydney to today's show.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: We're so excited to jump in with you and have you here today.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining us.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you both so much for having me.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: It's a pleasure to be here.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_03: So, Sydney, let's go back in time.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us a little bit about what was happening to you personally on the health front.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_03: When was it and what was going on?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: So my mom's a nurse.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like always that kind of that connection.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then being diagnosed with autism at six years old.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had to go to physiotherapy at a young age because I was walking on my tippy toes, had to go to speech therapy.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I remember being in and out of the hospital at some points.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that all shaped my perception of health and what it looks like.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: And my mental health got really bad for a while.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that aspect of the healthcare system, and just seeing different aspects of the healthcare system throughout my life and seeing how it's impacting me and how my health looks different day to day sometimes, and how other people seem to have like linear health journeys.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: It might seem like to be kind of sporadic and all over the place, especially I'm turning 29 next month, and so I'm still relatively young.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so compared to my classmates at the time and peers, just seeing the difference in how theirs looked linear, how they looked okay, and I feel like I was really struggling at points.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it didn't always feel fair.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't feel fair to have to go through that.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's an important tapture.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: And you started out with my mom as a nurse.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm wondering if there were conversations or she had ideas and how she got involved in helping you from what you remember.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm also biracial.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So my dad is from the UK and is white, and my mom's from Guyana and is a black nurse.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that also shaped because she was like, kid, it's hard for a black woman in healthcare as a nurse and as a patient.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then dealing with all these things, she's like, I'm sorry, kid, but she taught me how to advocate for myself and all aspects of my life, and how sometimes we have to be louder.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Or sometimes people think louder means us being harsh or being demanding, but it's like just to get what we need and get the support we need and get the resources we need to really show up for ourselves every day and to just survive in this world, let alone thrive.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_04: You mentioned a moment ago it didn't feel fair, and it just strikes me thinking about a child.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_04: You were a child at the time and how a child views that.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: What do you wish somebody had said to you or unlocked for you in that moment?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think especially really felt unfair when I was going to physiotherapy at like nine years old, and I was assigned all these exercise routines and stretching.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because I would walk on my tippy toes and I was also playing soccer and and I became really tight calf muscles and it would literally hinder my ability to walk at moments.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: That was really frustrating.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I wish someone could have told me that it's just okay.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think just acknowledging because sometimes when we're struggling or we have challenges, we think we're the only one having challenges and struggling.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: And to know that I wasn't alone or that things get better or they're like different, but that's okay.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, the person I am now is a kind of a love letter to that child to me.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just sometimes I still struggle with talking and sometimes have to use a king now for other reasons, which I'll talk about later.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: But you can still accomplish things, you can still make a good life for yourself.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_04: I like that love letter to yourself.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's very thoughtful.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: And in that love letter to yourself, it sounds like some things got better on some of your diagnosis.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if you're still doing some of the physio and the speech therapy.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Did some things get easier and how did things evolve over time?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_03: And were there some things that were harder?
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like walking is such an interesting one for me because it's like some days it's like I can be a really fast walker, or sometimes I need to use my cane, or sometimes I walk.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think overall that it has gotten better and knowing to also not walk on my tippy toes.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: In regards to my speech therapy, sometimes I still speak too fast.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have more of a stutter.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's kind of changed.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: But overall, I think I'm now a speaker as part of what I do for a living.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was younger, when I was in speech therapy, even some of my speech therapists, because I would really struggle sometimes, they'd be trying to help me, but I would still have the mental block.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd be like to my parents, I don't know if she's ever gonna be able to speak properly.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that put fear into my parents and into myself.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: But for the longest time, sometimes I would not speak at all, be like, if I can't speak properly, I don't want to speak.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And now my family home makes a joke.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Now you can't make me be quiet.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been fortunate enough to be an HR Awards judge at the Canadian HR Awards for the past three years.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: And last year I actually brought my mom and I went to go network and talk to other people.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: As being an entrepreneur, I have to go network and just talk to people.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I was like, Mom, I was like, mom's just gonna stay there.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then she actually went to the table that we were eating dinner at and that's having the main ceremony.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Oh, someone's like, Oh, what when did you go to the HR Awards?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so my mom's like, Oh, I'm with my daughter.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, that's nice of you to bring your daughter to the HR Awards.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she's like, No, no, my daughter's a judge and presenter, like she brought me.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so that night it was, I think it was over a thousand people at the HR Awards, and I presented two awards on stage.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a way that I had to go to speech therapy.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: So again, sometimes still struggle.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I think my brain goes too fast for my mouth to catch up, so then it leads to me stuttering.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: But my mom came off stage and she just like, I don't know how you did that.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think she saw little Sydney, her little daughter in speech therapy that was struggling that people told that they were gonna be able to speak properly, now on stage presenting two words back to back with ease.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: That is so beautiful.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: And how did little Sydney end up in HR?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_04: What do you use to that path?
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's an interesting path.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: In high school, I thought I was gonna be an environmentalist because I've always wanted to change the world.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was always that kid on like have an impact, make a difference.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my mom agreed then into me from a young age, and then I didn't have the math grades for it.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't have the math grades to go to university.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_01: My high school offered a business selective, and I was like, Oh, this is interesting.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: And my aunt actually was in human resources, and she's like, I think you would be good in human resources, but really on the human side and really caring about the people.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I can do that.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so I then applied to a college-level environmental program, but also applied to business administration human resource programs, and I got into two of those, and one was actually in my hometown, and I could just take one bus there because I was still struggling to drive at that point.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, huh, I think human resources seems like a good fit for me.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: And we know that human resources can be catering to the company and has to cater to the company, but there's a lot of human elements still.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was studying human resources, my teacher was like, There's a path to make sure that human resources really puts the human back into it.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's what really interested me and got me into HR.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: That's amazing.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_03: And Sydney, you mentioned earlier on the advocacy front that having parents from different ethnicities, advocacy looked different and self-advocacy looked different, and I had to be louder.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_03: Did you experience that?
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_03: Your mom warned you that this is how it is.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: What did you feel?
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_03: And what did you face and come across?
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was interesting because I feel like mostly society does see me as a black woman.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: And my mom was like, no, I'm biracial.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I make it very clear because I'm proud of both my backgrounds, both my heritages.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I feel like in the medical and healthcare, I feel like I did have to be louder, but other ways in my school settings, sometimes at work, I actually took more of my dad's approach of just subtle and really showing other people grace so that they can give me grace.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: But then for I have an example, I went to do a test at the doctor's office recently for the first time.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was listening to my music beforehand.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was an invasive procedure.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, wait, I could have kept my headphones on, but I didn't know that I could ask for that.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was very uncomfortable.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: It was a struggle.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: I was very tense doing this procedure.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then after I left, I was like, wait, I could have kept my headphones on.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: Why couldn't I have kept my headphones on?
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so actually I went to do the procedure again.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And this time I was like, Can I keep my headphones on?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, Yep, that's no problem.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was a huge moment for me when it comes to advocacy.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like such a hypocrite the first time when I didn't do it because I feel like I advocate so much for my career and what I do for a living, but somehow there was still a disconnect and it was a new doctor that I was just getting to know.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that also played a role in it.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I had a conversation with myself, frankly, afterwards.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, if it was my other doctor, I feel like I have a little bit more comfortable to ask to keep the headphones on.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: But since it was a new doctor getting to know her, but that looks like I was a little more worried that she was going to judge me for it.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Because she saw my medical history on the paper, but she didn't know my medical history because I've been with the other doctor for 10 years and then now I'm with this new one.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: I love that you had a conversation with yourself.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: I do that as well.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I can understand.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_03: You used the word louder.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_03: You had to be louder in healthcare versus other areas.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_03: What made you choose that word?
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: Did you find that you weren't listened to?
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Was there were you dismissed at times?
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_03: Did you have to repeat things?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I had to repeat a lot of things, I remember, because my leg pain subsided, and now my leg pain was coming back.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's when I had to be louder.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, no, there's something like it was in this leg and now it's in this leg.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like something's going on.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know my body.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I've spent lots of time getting acquainted with my body and because of what I went through as a child, right?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, no, something's off here, doctor.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And to just repeat myself.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they were like, Well, try this.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And we just say, like, over exercise, right?
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'm doing my exercise, I'm going skating still.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: I actually feel really good after I go skating.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_01: But I was like, then we come back the pain, we come back again.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was just like, no, this is a recurring thing.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: Something's going on.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of repeating myself.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I say louder, I mean really making sure that they hear my voice, right?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times people think like actually being louder, but it's really speaking up for yourself, really repeating yourself multiple times and really making it clear of what you're experiencing.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate you sharing that example.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_03: I worked on a project years ago and there were differences of interpretation across different ethnicities.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: And the comment was made or the thought was there that black women are strong and can handle more pain.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: And if that's the case, if somebody thinks that, there's projection, like you're okay or you're strong from both sides or someone.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: So interested if that's something that you felt played in at all.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: Is that did you feel?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I do think it played a role.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so annoying.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh mom, I came home.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, mom, yeah, you were right.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like we do have to fight harder for what we need in this system.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so annoying because it was like I hate.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, Mom, why did you have to be right?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, sorry, kid, again.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I don't want to say pick your battles, but it's kind of akin to picking your battles.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's like seeing this stronger, seeing this we can handle it.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it's if I'm telling you something, believe me, it's worrisome sometimes because it's like, why aren't you listening to my voice?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was doing a project with the TMU.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: They were doing an enabling accessibility healthcare education delivery project.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so interesting to see so having health care.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: We were trying to educate healthcare students through working with other people that have disabilities and talking about their experiences also in healthcare.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: We had a Canadian community host who was a white woman, and we had another community host who was a black woman.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the two different lived experiences were shocking, but not truly shocking to me at the same time.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much discrepancy, and it's tiring.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think right now people are realizing and really listening more to patient voices, but it takes all of us collectively to continuously speak up and not just speak up on behalf of ourselves, but speak on behalf of others and also recognize our own, we all have privileges and we all have oppressions, right?
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: No matter who we are.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so just recognizing how those show up in different situations and and even in healthcare.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Really listening to that feeling and not letting it get squashed and making sure that comes to the forefront.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: What would you like to say to your mom?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_03: And what would you say to other moms out there listening right now that have kids they're taking care of?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think to my mom, I would say, thank you.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: She taught me how to really think critically.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: Both my parents did, but especially from that racialized lens and thinking critically, that's huge for my mom.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I want to thank her for being such a critical thinker and teaching me to be a critical thinker and questioning is that just a band-aid solution?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a long-term solution?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: What does that look like?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And to other moms, I would say give your kids the tools to advocate for themselves.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: Especially, I'm seeing a lot of parents just advocate on behalf of their children, but you really have to also teach them how to advocate for themselves along that.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I would be who I am today if you didn't do that.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can be super mom and advocate, but the true gift you can give your children is how to advocate for themselves in difficult situations and to have difficult conversations and to trust themselves enough to know how to show up for themselves and recognize that it might look different sometimes and that it's okay that your needs are ever changing and ever growing.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_04: I love that you started with the critical thinking and well done, mom, if you're listening.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think a lot of times you run into folks who want to tell their kids what to think.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_04: They want their kids to mimic what they think.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's a scary thing when your kids think differently than you, but that is what we're called to do as parents is to teach you to think for yourself.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_04: And that can be a little bit scary, but it's the gift.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's what enables your kids to take care of themselves when you're not there anymore, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes she gets annoyed when I think a little too critically, like we compared to her.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, who do they taught me that?
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, oh she's annoyed, but she's also proud.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like exactly.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, that she's like, do it to other people, not to me.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: Didn't he?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_03: I know in your work you think about disability and neurodiversity.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: What is your experience on the personal front with neurodiversity?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_03: And how did you notice that something was different?
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_03: And what did that mean to you?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: So again, I was diagnosed when I was six years old of autism, but didn't really know what it meant.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my high school was actually attached to another school, and it was a school dedicated specifically for teenagers that had disabilities and the neurodivergent.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I could have been in that school.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_01: My drama teacher actually started including them into our drama presentations or like saying you have to integrate a person in from that school into your drama course.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: So then they also had volunteer opportunities to volunteer with at the school.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was really struggling with my mental health at that time.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: My mental health was at an all-time low, but hanging out with those folks, I felt seen.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: I saw them stimming, so that's a self-regulation technique.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I flap my arms, which can be like sounds, like mmm, people presented differently.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt so seen when I saw those individuals doing it.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt more appear to them than my own peers in my normal classrooms.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, what was that diagnosis?
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then I just started thinking about it and really pulling back those layers, going to speech, and just like, oh, it's all connected to being autistic.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like I would think really literally sometimes, sometimes still too, and pulling back all these layers and being like, How is it showing up for me?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Especially growing up female and in society.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a lot of times people just think there's so much media representation of autism, but it's very two-dimensional, and it's mostly focused on men and mostly white men.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm just a racialized individual.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so by pulling back all those layers, seeing it's like, oh, okay, this is I would be wearing clothing sometimes, and I would just be like, This clothing's wrong.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I felt gross, is why I called it.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then I remember one day I really need to know what this is because it was in grade 11, I believe.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I really felt like I couldn't move or couldn't do anything because I just felt so yucky in my clothes I was wearing, and the clothes were fine, nothing's damaged with them.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked it up on Google and it was called sensory overload.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, huh.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: And everything's random.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: People can have sensory difficulties without being autistic, but being neurodivergent, and that generally what people can experience sometimes.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Then from there, I also started working with kids, teens, and adults in the recreation department at my local rec center.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And again, seeing how again saw the similarities and just really okay.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then went back and found my documents that said that again, and it just starting to really make peace with how it's impacting how I'm showing up in the world and how I feel like masking is another term in the Neo-Division community that means just hiding those traits.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so I feel like I was hiding those traits for so long, but then I started to slowly take off the mask and slowly let myself exhibit these traits, and I would feel so much better.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I was sometimes so subconsciously masked, but when I'd be like, I'm gonna show up how I need to show up, I'm gonna show up authentically as myself, whatever that looks like, and through that understanding how my neurodivergent mind, how it's been working differently this whole time.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_04: Sydney, thank you for sharing that, by the way.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: I've worked in a number of large organizations that I think with very good intentions.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: So I just want to tap into a little bit of your HR, your personal experience, and bringing those things together.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think I see companies with very good intentions setting policies in place and talking about the work environments that they are creating that they believe are inclusive, welcoming of everyone, respectful of everyone.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_04: And yet in practice, I routinely see a failure of understanding what that looks like.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: What does it actually mean?
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_04: And you've highlighted a number of things that I think are really important.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_04: So, in a team, for example, where perhaps you were masking, or a team where when you're doing training with organizations, how do you get them to think about and start to notice the difference between what they intend and how actually people are showing up and that environment?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: How are we creating an environment where everyone feels like they can contribute their best to a team?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: How do you go about having those conversations with organizations?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I go about having those conversations by really tapping into my lived experience.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: So anonymizing that data.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then sometimes through that, or sometimes I've seen even when I share my story, other people want to share their stories now.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I always say that, like you said, like sometimes people have good intentions, but sometimes it falls apart.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so are your intentions actually working?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like are more people disclosing the narrative, or are more people asking for support or accommodations?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: Can people feel like they can tell you things?
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Are people being more transparent?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And Oppo with you.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I've been doing a lot of policy work recently and happened to actually help in companies because I'm based in Ontario, Canada, and we have the AODA.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of companies will they just have that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like anything back than being accessible.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's them being the height of inclusivity.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: ODA stands for Sydney.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: It stands for Accessibility, Ontario Disabilities Act.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times employers think that that's enough.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's the bare minimum.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't talk about how to accommodate your employees that might be struggling.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't talk about the day-to-day.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is very much that legislation piece into a policy.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that's a lot of times people intend to think they're doing a good thing by having that.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: But again, that's kind of that bare minimum.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm seeing a lot of companies that in policy specifically into trainings, they do things in practice that are really good, but they don't document that and don't standardize that.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I think a huge issue is that one manager could be doing a really good job being accessible, but another manager could be like, I don't see how that's relevant to my job.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so that inconsistency causes even more problems.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: And companies think, oh, well, one manager's doing it, so we're good.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, no, you really need to standardize that process.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: What does it look like to actually ask for help or ask for that accommodation, ask for that support?
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: Are you really meeting the employees where they're at?
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes they're going to organizations and companies are like, oh, well, we don't have anyone that's neurodivergent or disabled here.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I can guarantee you do.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're like only 25% disclosed.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: And what strikes me about this is that it's the opportunities you're missing.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_04: Because I think people sometimes mistake neurodivergent as being something wrong.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's something different.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_04: And when something is different, we look at the world in a slightly different way.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_04: So new possibilities start to emerge when you put people together who think differently, new possibilities emerge.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_04: So we're missing those opportunities if we're not allowing people to thrive in that environment and bring their best, right?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we miss that sometimes.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Allowing people to really show up and even accommodation plans, being neurodivergent to having disabilities.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times it's like this is what you have to do every day, but it's like episodic disabilities, for example.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like mental health, like that someone in the depressive that has depression.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're not always in a depressive episode.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they can be in a depressive episode and sometimes they're not.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they might not need that accommodation when they're not in that depressive episode, might need different types of accommodation, right?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Versus when they're in that depressive episode, that might need more flexible scheduling, that might need whatever the person might need.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of the shortcomings come to there's no flexibility in meeting people where they're at and understanding that everyone has good and bad days, they're division or disabled or not.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: We all have good and bad days.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're all going to show up differently, depending on the circumstances, depending on our own internal world, the external world, all these different factors.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's impossible to standardize a human's work performance, but employers are trying to standardize the human process so much.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like you have to make room for that, even though it might not be a human error, but just human conditions.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_03: I appreciate the shout-out on flexibility and even understanding what that can look like.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_03: It was a little while ago, Sydney.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_03: I was talking to somebody in the ecosystem and their job was to build hospitals.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_03: And I said to them, Anne-Marie, have you talked to Sydney?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_03: Because I knew Accessible Creates.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_03: And Accessible Creates does focus on physical accessibility and more, which I think is really important.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_03: And back to well-meaning, people don't know what they don't know.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: Sydney, interested, if you think about some recent conversations you've had, some advice on practical shifts organizations should be thinking about, whether that be language, policies, accommodations, mindset.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: I realize there's many suggestions on all of those.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_03: But do you have a couple pieces of advice for listeners about something practical to think about, flexibility, and what are things we can do better?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: I really think meeting your people where they're at, listening to your people.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I come in sometimes as an external consultant.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now I come in as a coach, sometimes an external trainer.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think I want to be there to facilitate those hard conversations.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be there to kind of as a stepping stone.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's like this is my lived experience, but it's like you know your organization.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_01: You as the employee have the ins and outs of the day-to-day when you experience this organization.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Employers, you know, this employee clocks in every day, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so they really know that experience.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times companies reach out to me to audit the policies or to write policies.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I can do that, but I also want to do a focus group or have people send me, or maybe in and on in my survey, again, meeting the employees where they're at, to really gather that data.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, where are the shortcomings?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can go in and do best practices and stuff like that.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: And if in from my own lived experience, but I really want to collect that data from employees.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so again, really listening to your employees and just understanding where they're at and where they want to go in the organization.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Do they want to stay at the organization?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do they want a promotion?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Where do they see themselves in the organization?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: Do they feel like they can speak up?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it always goes back to the advocacy piece.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of times organizations feel like, oh, if no one's saying anything, we're good.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's actually an indicator that maybe things are not so good.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Because if people feel safe enough to actually use the voice and to speak up when something's wrong, that means they care.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: That means they want the best work environment.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: But if they are silent sometimes, it depends on the organization, but really recognizing that if no one's speaking up, they're just in survival mode, maybe, and could just be putting their head down, just okay, this is just a paycheck, it's expensive in 2026, everything's skyrocketing, the prices, I just need a paycheck, just need a job.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: The job market's so volatile, let me just put my head down and work.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: And people think that's a good thing, but that's not necessarily a good thing.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think my second piece of advice quickly would be it's okay to make mistakes, you know.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was talking to a manager recently in a coaching session I was doing with them.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: They were just so terrified.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: They just became a manager, they were so terrified of making mistakes as a manager because they're like, I can't make mistakes in front of my team.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, why not?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, they look to me for guidance, they look to me to have all the answers, but I don't have all the answers.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I said to them, it's better to be transparent and to own up to those mistakes and be like, hey, I'm the manager, but don't make mistakes and be okay with making mistakes.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Mistakes is how you learn, but for some reason, when it becomes a manager in corporate or in companies, it's just like, oh, okay, every mistake is too big.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like no mistake is too big.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: If as long as you learn from that mistake, it's okay.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm curious if you have thoughts or if you talk to your clients sometimes about how they interview for different roles and whatnot.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_04: Because it strikes me we seem to have the same interview techniques no matter what the role is that we're hiring for.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: And they can often be very biased in the way.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: How do you coach organizations to think differently about how they recruit?
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of times, although what is the job?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes it's like, do you need them to know a specific skill?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes just talking about the skill, that's not gonna really show you that they nail the skill.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Can you test them in other ways?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Can they do a test beforehand that's applicable to that skill that you need them to know for the job and then having the interview?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I think also I always say to send questions ahead of time.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of companies' interviews they want people to think on their feet and think quickly.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, have questions ahead of time though.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you need to be able to see someone's ability to think quickly and think fast, maybe say we're gonna have one question that is in that moment, but have most of the questions for the specific job duties and specific job tasks, send the questions ahead of time.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually a huge push right now when it comes to accessibility in the workplace.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a huge plus because we all have busy lives.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: You never know who's gonna need it.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe my mom that has young ones at home.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's all these different factors, not just for disability and for neurodivergent reasons, but for any reason.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: And even I've saved in companies a lot of time.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I was working with a company before I officially launched my business, and we were doing a mass hiring because it was through the Canadian Summer Jobs Program.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, I wonder if anyone has any accessibility needs that we didn't think about.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, when we sent them the interview requests, like once we get the resumes and we reviewed them and then we'll bring them for an interview in that email, just reminding them, because it was on the job posting.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: It was like, if you need accommodation, reach out to this email.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm like, just remind them again in that email when you ask for that interview, is there any way you need to be accommodated?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: Just let us know.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: And just reminding keeping it at the forefront, right?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And that's such a small shift, right?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times when I'm working with clients, I always say if we're gonna recruit, and also how are you actually allowing people when people like can you repeat the question?
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Can you rephrase it?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I say that I also offer that advice because sometimes people ask questions, it's like, can you rephrase that?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes the wording they don't fully understand.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: And as you, as the recruiter for this organization, you should be able to do that.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: But really being able to rephrase the question, to repeat the question, allowing people to take time to process that question, suggesting that having questions ahead of time, but sometimes in that moment, money that moment to just process and then speak the question too at times.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, exactly.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_03: I like the idea of questions ahead of time so people can think and then process as well and have the time as you outlay to ask further on it.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_03: This has been incredible.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing your personal journey and everything you had faced and life with your family and how you navigated that.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's really given us a lot of things to think about on the workplace front.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you for everything that you shared.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_03: We always end on a fun note, and I know you have some fun and meaningful times coming up with your dog that are very special to you.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_03: Tell us about this.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, next week I'm taking off work for a little bit.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have a lot of trail walks next week and go explore.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm quite excited to go hang out with her and just trail a little bit and then come home and just cuddle on the couch.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: And what kind of dog is it?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And what is doggy's name?
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_01: So she's quite the mix.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: She's a lab boxer pit.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Ooh.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And she's black and white and has brown spots, which is actually called Reverse Brindle, and her name is Oriol.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, that's beautiful.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_03: My husband has been educating me on the benefits of dogs in the house.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_03: I think he picked up a show on TV that he's quite bedazzled by.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_03: So dogs are so important.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's a new show, I think, on CBC.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's pretty cute.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_03: Sydney, I want to say thank you for this fantastic conversation today.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_03: And Anne Marie, this has been really, really insightful around this intersectionality of system accountability, personal identity, thoughtful questions to ask, and flexibility we need to think about with the workplaces.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: I want to say thank you for this conversation.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_03: This has been very good.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you both so much for having me.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Sydney.
• 33:25
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• 33:30
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• 33:36
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• 33:43
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• 33:47
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• 33:59
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• 34:08
  SPEAKER_03: Until next time, stay connected.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_03: Your voice matters.