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Freedom on Her Face · Q & A, Hosted by Jay Nordlinger

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, everyone, and welcome to Q&A.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jay Nordlinger,
• 0:04
  and our guest today is a woman who has dedicated her life to
• 0:07
  the cause of human
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: rights in China.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_02: It is a great and important cause.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: She is Yachou Wang, approximately Yachou, Y-A-Q-I-U,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_02: Wong Wang.
• 0:23
  She has worked for Freedom House,
• 0:25
  Human Rights Watch,
• 0:27
  and the Committee to Protect Journalists.
• 0:29
  Today,
• 0:30
  she is a fellow at the University of Chicago's Forum for Free
• 0:33
  Inquiry and Expression.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: As a properly modern person, she has a website.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: It is wangyacho.com.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_02: W-A-N-G-Y-A-Q-I-U dot com.
• 0:49
  Well,
• 0:50
  thank you for suffering my pronunciation of your name,
• 0:53
  and it's a pleasure to see you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being our guest.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't mean to make you recount your life from the first minute onward,
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: but where were you born?
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: I was born in a village in Southeast China in Zhejiang province.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: Huh.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: And what did your parents do?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_00: They were farmers, but my dad later operated a business.
• 1:22
  So basically by the Chinese government's categorization of the
• 1:26
  Chinese people,
• 1:27
  we were peasants.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's what in our registration card, we were peasants.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was marked right on the card, peasant?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean...
• 1:39
  I mean,
• 1:39
  I mean,
• 1:39
  later we will probably talk about it's a communist country.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: the peasantry and the workers class are the vanguard of the Chinese,
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: the country.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: And did you grow up?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I want to stress the word relatively.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Did you grow up in a relatively liberal period, a relatively free period?
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, when I was growing up, I didn't feel that way.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I felt more and more as China became more and more repressive.
• 2:14
  So looking back,
• 2:15
  I started to realize how much more liberal when I was growing
• 2:19
  up.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: And tell us a little about your schooling, your education.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: Was it a good one?
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: Was it a doctrinaire one?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: Was there a lot of party ideology involved?
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or was it more authentic, let's say?
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 2:40
  I would say that the reason that I am engaged in human rights
• 2:45
  work is because of my
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: education.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: very unpleasant experience growing up in that education system.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't in a way that I was abused by the teacher, stuff like that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was just the indoctrination.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really didn't like it.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can give you an example that everybody
• 3:18
  as children,
• 3:19
  I mean,
• 3:19
  maybe teenagers,
• 3:20
  we all know that Taiwan is a country there.
• 3:26
  So they have their own government,
• 3:28
  they have their own system,
• 3:29
  their own military,
• 3:31
  right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: But then everybody has to pretend it's a province in China.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I just always felt like,
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: as I just told you,
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  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in a village,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I did go to school in a town,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's still a small place,
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  SPEAKER_00: right?
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  SPEAKER_00: We little people that are so far away from Beijing,
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  why do we have to pretend that Taiwan is a province of China
• 3:55
  when literally
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: everybody in this little classroom knows that's not true?
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just this kind of, we have to engage in pretending,
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: something that everybody knows is not true, just irk me.
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  SPEAKER_00: in a very fundamental level.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is just an example, right?
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  SPEAKER_00: Then there are many other things,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: my parents went through cultural revolution,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Great Forward,
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  SPEAKER_00: Lead Forward,
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  all those things the Communist Party has done to the people
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  that are in such an
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  SPEAKER_00: egregious way that we cannot talk about it.
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  So just growing up in that system made me feel I really,
• 4:34
  really don't like it.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just wanted to speak the truth.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just want to express myself.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: What is wrong with our country that we can't do that?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this feeling,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: it carries me every day and motivate me to do my work on a daily basis.
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  Just this childhood feeling that I sit in the classroom while
• 4:59
  we're engaging in
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  SPEAKER_00: this,
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  SPEAKER_00: pretending that something that is not true.
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  SPEAKER_02: Did you have any classmates you could talk with openly and honestly?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone you could confide in?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Someone to whom you could say, hey, this is nonsense.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: Or did you have to keep your thoughts to yourself?
• 5:20
  Well,
• 5:21
  even on a Taiwan issue that I think at that time I was,
• 5:26
  I think it was in high school.
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  SPEAKER_00: I just said to the teacher, it's a country.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: To the teacher?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: Brave girl, my gosh.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the teacher just brushed away, right?
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  And I know the difference between now and then is that at that
• 5:42
  time it was okay.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, the teacher just ignored you, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's not okay.
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  You're going to be put into some disciplinary situation and you
• 5:50
  might get expelled.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: And for the teacher,
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  SPEAKER_00: probably if she doesn't do something about this student,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: she's going to be in big trouble.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that was what we were referring to earlier,
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: that China was much more liberal when I was growing up than it is now.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: Could you talk freely with your parents?
• 6:11
  Were your parents also doubters,
• 6:14
  let's say,
• 6:14
  or even opponents of the regime?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's just they don't want to talk about it.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's just very intuitively.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is really it's not my parents.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're not intellectuals.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're not anti-CCP critics.
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  SPEAKER_00: And also my family.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: they're not really victims of,
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: everybody is a victim of the CCP's human rights abuse in China,
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: but they are not,
• 6:38
  they haven't been through egregious situations like some other
• 6:44
  families have.
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  SPEAKER_00: So they're just, they're really examples of normal Chinese people.
• 6:49
  And they just intuitively don't want to engage with me on those
• 6:53
  questions about the past.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think it really speaks to the effects of decades of censorship,
• 7:03
  surveillance and repression that people have just grow this
• 7:09
  innate fear in them
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  SPEAKER_00: that they just intuitively don't want to engage in those topics.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  I've said this many times to other people,
• 7:20
  and many people said that to me,
• 7:21
  too.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's their experience at the dinner table.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: You ask your grandma, what were you doing during the Great Leap Forward?
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: They just don't talk about it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's just forget about it.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's just that...
• 7:34
  I,
• 7:34
  you know,
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  to my grandpa,
• 7:36
  even my parents' generation,
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  just this suffering was so traumatic.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: they know some people who spoke up about the sufferings had suffered such
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: repercussions.
• 7:51
  So the trauma and the awareness of the consequence of talking
• 7:57
  about trauma have changed.
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  resulted in them just intuitively don't want to engage in those
• 8:03
  conversations,
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  SPEAKER_00: even in a safe place like a dinner table at home.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, sure.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Well,
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  SPEAKER_02: Yacho,
• 8:14
  we've mentioned Taiwan and I know some Chinese dissidents and
• 8:19
  Democrats whose
• 8:20
  favorite country is Taiwan because it's a Chinese country and a
• 8:26
  free and democratic
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  SPEAKER_02: country.
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  SPEAKER_02: And they so appreciate Taiwan as an example of the compatibility
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: of Chinese culture and freedom, democracy, human rights.
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  I wonder if you agree with them and have the same appreciation
• 8:44
  and admiration of Taiwan.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: I've been there a few times.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, they have freedom and democracy.
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  SPEAKER_00: Of course, there's the problem with having freedom.
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  People believe in ideas that I think are not true,
• 8:59
  things like that,
• 9:00
  like in America.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, it's just a free society.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: It has its problem, but people can talk freely about whatever they think.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, being a human rights person, right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
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  it's like if you ask them about the abuse by the Chiang Kai-she
• 9:24
  and Chiang Jing-guo
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  SPEAKER_00: before Taiwan experienced the democratization,
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  SPEAKER_00: they can just talk about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: So,
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
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  SPEAKER_00: journalists often tell me that after they first were stationed in China,
• 9:35
  then they moved to Taipei and they just felt the difference was
• 9:40
  so huge that in
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: China,
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  SPEAKER_00: you called 20 people,
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  SPEAKER_00: everybody said,
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  SPEAKER_00: sorry,
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  SPEAKER_00: I cannot talk.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: Then in Taipei, like in Taiwan, everybody wants to talk.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, that's how my experience in America, too.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like I came in here, like everybody was like so willing to talk.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, I loved being in Taiwan.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like the freedom.
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  SPEAKER_00: I like the democracy.
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  I just like a society where people can just be themselves and
• 10:04
  express themselves freely.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a frank country.
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  SPEAKER_02: I visited the Human Rights Museum in Taipei,
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  SPEAKER_02: which is in the old prison,
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: the old political prison.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was a very good experience.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: Did you go to college in China?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I did.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: In what city?
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  SPEAKER_00: In a city that, it's in the capital city of the province.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: I grew up in Hanzhou, Zhejiang province.
• 10:39
  I think a big reason I went to the colleges that are close to
• 10:42
  where I grew up was
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: because I wanted to spend more time at home and just read freely.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you were...
• 10:51
  going through the system in such a confined way that you have
• 10:55
  to read this,
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  SPEAKER_00: you have to regurgitate this information in college,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: you have more freedom.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I felt,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:01
  I wanted to be close at home so I can have the freedom to read
• 11:05
  what I want to
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  SPEAKER_00: rather than be in a school environment.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I, you know, I feel like
• 11:11
  My education,
• 11:13
  my real education was gained by getting away from the education
• 11:19
  system.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: So I learned real education by staying away from the formal education.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: Were you aware of yourself as a subversive?
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: Did you think that you were a rebel,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: simply not accepting the mainstream ideology,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: so to speak,
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: or the government ideology?
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  Did it worry you at all that you had these subversive thoughts
• 11:47
  and didn't really
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_02: blend in mentally?
• 11:51
  Well,
• 11:52
  I think at least from childhood through high school,
• 11:59
  I felt I was normal.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: The rest of the people were not normal.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that was how I felt.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: One time I remember also in high school,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: we were asked to write an essay in 40 minutes,
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  SPEAKER_00: write 800 characters.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's about 1,200 words.
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  SPEAKER_00: essay.
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  SPEAKER_00: So in that 40 minutes, I wrote one sentence.
• 12:25
  I said,
• 12:25
  I don't understand why other people can endure this education
• 12:31
  system.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I spent this 40 minutes sitting there.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I just ran one sentence.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So eventually, the teacher saw this.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's a rebellious act.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: You're supposed to write a long essay.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then read it to the class out loud.
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  SPEAKER_00: And everybody laughed.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I just felt
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm the abnormal one.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_01: Did they laugh at you or with you?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: They laughed at me.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think at that moment, I just felt I was an outlier.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that I was not normal.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think I would say,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 13:12
  that moment probably was the first moment I felt I wanted to
• 13:15
  leave the country.
• 13:17
  that I wanted to experience something different to be in a
• 13:20
  country that I feel that
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: comported to who I am.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Was it easy to leave the country or hard?
• 13:31
  Well,
• 13:31
  at that time,
• 13:33
  many people were coming to the US to other Western country to
• 13:38
  study.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: So in retrospect,
• 13:40
  I felt it wasn't that hard because the US was very welcoming
• 13:44
  for Chinese students.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: At that time,
• 13:46
  the Chinese government was very encouraging of people going out
• 13:50
  to learn from the
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: West.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: So there were policy issues.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: at the high level that were encouraging that behavior.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: But it was still hard as a person who's from a village.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So nobody around me have went to, have gone abroad.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that was,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I need to find information myself,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: do the application myself,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: all that stuff.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it was hard for people from my background.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: But overall, it was a time that this was encouraged.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_02: When did you start learning English?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: when I was in middle school.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: So English was taught in middle school.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it was just one class as people learn French or Chinese here.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And did you come to America or go somewhere else first?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: I came to America first.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_02: Where did you go?
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: I went to South Carolina.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, what town?
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was an exchange student at University of South Carolina.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it was a great experience.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yacho, you're a Gamecock, right?
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't that the nickname of the school, the Gamecocks?
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: We can look that up.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: I had no idea.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: We can look that up.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe you didn't go to football games.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: No, I've never been to, even after all these years in America.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I still don't understand.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: That awaits you.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: That's OK.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand hockey, and I grew up in a cold northern state.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I see.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_02: What was it like coming to America?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: I talked to a lot of people,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: especially in the 1990s from Eastern Europe,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: from the Soviet bloc,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: about their first visits to the West,
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: to free and open and democratic countries.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: And many of them said, it was like going from black and white to color.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: Everything was in color.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Everything was vivid.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: What was your experience when you when you arrived in South Carolina?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: Was everything weird or was it exciting or all of that?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think for I agree with what,
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: those people said,
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: everything is in color,
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: not in black and white.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: I felt,
• 16:15
  what I felt I shared by many people from China in terms of
• 16:20
  their first impression
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: of America,
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: that people have written on their face.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: So people are,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: if you grew up in China,
• 16:30
  you really know the difference of people who carry freedom with
• 16:35
  them when they walk
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: on the street,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: when they talk to you,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: when they have no fear.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that is really, you know, it's an expression in China.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: Freedom is only a face.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's how people felt of their first impression in America.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because in China, you just grew up in this environment.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: You can't speak up.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: You can't talk about so many things.
• 16:59
  You can't express your feelings and your discipline through a
• 17:05
  very young age that
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: you are supposed to say certain things and not say certain things.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you become a person that just fears all over you.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_00: So when you came to America,
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: when you see people just carry themselves without fear,
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: freedom is on their face.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic, Yacho.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yacho,
• 17:27
  I meant to ask you a little earlier when we were discussing
• 17:29
  your education,
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: but now is a perfectly good time.
• 17:32
  Did you ever encounter a book or books or an article or
• 17:36
  articles that made a big
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: impression on you,
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: that jolted your thinking?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there was, and it wasn't a really good book.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So after I graduated from high school,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: the high school was very high pressure cook.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Then college was more liberating.
• 17:57
  So the three months between high school and college was the
• 18:00
  most free time.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: The freest of time.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I was just reading.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: At that time, the Chinese internet was relatively freer.
• 18:07
  So you can access Google,
• 18:09
  you can read the New York Times,
• 18:11
  things like that.
• 18:12
  So accidentally,
• 18:13
  I found a book online written by the private doctor of Mao
• 18:20
  Zedong.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it talks about.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, everybody says, you know, this is not a really credible book.
• 18:27
  So it just it talks so much about his private life,
• 18:30
  his mistresses and his private habits.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: But as a person who grew up in a Chinese system that,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: got so much indoctrination about Mao Zedong,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I was just so in disbelief that this leader was so corrupt.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: But it's one of the best books,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: in my opinion,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_02: ever written about China,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: that is communist China,
• 18:53
  because it tells you so much about how communist China
• 18:56
  developed and how it was run
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_02: and the cruel lunacy that rules China.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you read it too.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, imagine... Are you kidding?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: I hung on every word, turned the pages.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of us did when it came out.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: the reason,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: that was the book that Wake Me Up is not,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's like a theoretical book about the truth.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, no.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: It was just so interesting.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's a personal book.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's a memoir.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's a biography in a way.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:26
  So,
• 19:26
  I mean,
• 19:27
  I'm just saying that,
• 19:28
  you know,
• 19:28
  it's not some great classic that it wakes me up.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's an interesting book that I cannot stop reading that it woke me up.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: It runs so conscious to what I learned from school.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that was, you know, it was this book.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Over the years,
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: I've written a lot about Chinese political prisoners,
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: and I wrote quite a bit about Liu Xiaobo,
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: one of the founders of Charter 08.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: a scholar of literature,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: Nobel Peace Laureate,
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: and he died a political prisoner in I think 2017.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: We can check that.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: Who are the people?
• 20:20
  Who are the dissidents and political prisoners that we should
• 20:24
  be aware of today?
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: Can you give me a name or two or three?
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: One name I would give is Xu Zhiyong.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: He's a legal scholar.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: He founded the China Constitution Movement.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: So now he is in prison right now for the second time.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: He was sentenced to 14 years, a couple of years ago.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: So he was the guy who exposed the idea of freedom, justice, love.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: So he was very popular for a time when China,
• 21:02
  when there was more internet freedom and people could find
• 21:05
  information about him
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: and people followed his movement in Beijing.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: But now so few know him.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think the world should know about him
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, he was charismatic.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: He was just a leader.
• 21:22
  That's why he could start a movement and gather people together
• 21:25
  in Beijing when there was space.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: More importantly, really, it's the courage.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's his second time in prison, and he's been sentenced to 14 years.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: So this is extraordinary courage and extraordinary conviction.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to talk with you about a possibly touchy subject,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: Chinese nationalism,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_02: which as I see it as a great and powerful force.
• 21:55
  Let me tell you something that a Chinese woman told a friend of
• 22:00
  mine in church,
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_02: in an American church.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: She's a Chinese woman, Chinese born woman living in America.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: and a fellow church member of this friend of mine.
• 22:14
  And she said to him,
• 22:15
  you know,
• 22:15
  there's a big difference between us Chinese and you Americans.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: You like to separate a people from its government.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: You have a people on one hand and their government on the other.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: For example,
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: President Reagan was very careful to talk about,
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: to make the distinction between peoples and governments.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: He would talk about the Russian people,
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: the Estonian people,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: and so on and so forth,
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: and the Soviet government.
• 22:45
  And he would talk about the Chinese people and the Chinese
• 22:47
  government,
• 22:47
  you know.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: And she said, this woman said to this friend of mine, that's you.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: But we Chinese don't make a difference.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: You criticize our government.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: You condemn our government.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: You are condemning us as well.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And the shame and the indignation falls on us as well.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have the separation that you Westerners do.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_02: Is there any truth to that?
• 23:13
  Well,
• 23:13
  I think that is really a result of years,
• 23:17
  decades of indoctrination.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: The core of it is the confliction of the party and the people.
• 23:28
  So I do think she was expressing a view that ultimately came
• 23:32
  from the Chinese government.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: The Chinese government wants people to believe,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: the government and the people and the country are one thing.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yachou Wang, here is a possibly sensitive question.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: Feel free not to answer it.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do you ever worry about your personal security here on foreign soil?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I worry.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I worry all the time.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: Dumb question.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Stupid question.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: Of course you do.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I worry all the time.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, I do worry my personal security.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I worry more of my parents' security.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So the Chinese government has so good at leveraging,
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: basically taking hostage of your loved ones to achieve their
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_00: for years that,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: they have channeled to me that,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: you need to stop criticizing the government,
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: to last something happened to your family.
• 24:33
  So I stopped talking to my family just so they don't need to be
• 24:36
  subject to that
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: kind of pressure.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: That must be incredibly painful.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Incredibly painful.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have...
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know, feeling guilty forever.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's at the back of my mind every day.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:55
  I know a lot of people who are in your same boat and you could
• 24:59
  talk with one
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: another with great empathy.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you have such friends.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: I do.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: I bet you do.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: I bet you do.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find, are you ever frustrated?
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: How to put this, how to ask this?
• 25:14
  Is it relatively easy to get Americans and other Westerners to
• 25:18
  care about tyranny
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_02: in China,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: oppression in China,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: gross human rights violations in China?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find a willing audience?
• 25:31
  I bet you find a lot of people who simply want to do business
• 25:33
  with China and make
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: money,
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: which is very human.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: I do find a willing audience with regular Americans.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I do think freedom is really, really a value in America.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: So when I tell Americans,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: so-and-so are in jail because they wrote an article,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: that really,
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: engender a feeling,
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: this is so wrong.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I do feel like I find a willing audience in regular Americans,
• 26:03
  more so than business elites who just want to make money by
• 26:10
  doing business with
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: China.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Also, weirdly, with...
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: very, very educated elites in higher education.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: I feel...
• 26:22
  You find a certain resistance in them to hearing about the
• 26:28
  shocking reality of life
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: in China.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Particularly among the American left.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are very, very educated.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: you can kind of forgive a person who's never been anywhere,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: uneducated,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: not caring about foreign countries,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 26:46
  But when you talk to some very educated people and you tell
• 26:50
  them,
• 26:50
  you know,
• 26:52
  I'd say one particular issue that really,
• 26:55
  really irked me was during COVID.
• 27:00
  So,
• 27:02
  you know,
• 27:03
  GGB had this terrible zero COVID control that everybody was
• 27:06
  being locked down.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Many people had no access to food.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: They couldn't go to hospital, even under emergency.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And people died from that.
• 27:14
  And then when I talked to America about this kind of lack of
• 27:17
  freedom and their first response,
• 27:20
  response to me is that well in america you know it's not good
• 27:24
  that they just let
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: everybody roam around freely so
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I was just so angry.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: I literally said to the person,
• 27:32
  can you spend one minute of your life thinking about sufferings
• 27:36
  of people in other
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: countries?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Can you stop being so obsessed of the problems in America?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: And can you just go to other countries to experience worse abuses?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: Some people just so obsessed with whatever that is going on in America,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: they just stop caring about the rest of the world.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when you mention,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: people in other countries are not doing well,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: they would like,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't care.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: I only care about here.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: So this is a particular people that I feel very hard to talk to,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: especially the frustration came from some of them very educated.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's a real puzzle to me.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Funny question for you, Yaccio.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure what you'll think of this.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are there millions of people in China,
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: tens of millions,
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_02: hundreds of millions,
• 28:27
  who live sort of free and pleasant lives without too much
• 28:35
  hindrance from the
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: government or the party?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_02: Are there such people whose lives are
• 28:42
  Relatively,
• 28:43
  let me stress relatively,
• 28:45
  untouched by political persecution.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_00: Well, my family.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Good, good.
• 28:58
  However,
• 28:59
  I have cousins who went to the best school and came here in the
• 29:06
  U.S.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: for education.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: They went back to China.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: So they are the middle class, upper middle class in China.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: So they are not studying political science.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: They are just in other areas of
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what really changed them was the zero COVID situation.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a close relative.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: He lives in Shanghai.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: He was a privileged man living in Shanghai for those years.
• 29:32
  And then during the zero COVID lockdown,
• 29:35
  he really felt,
• 29:36
  oh,
• 29:36
  we have no rights.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: The zero COVID policy makes no sense.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_00: And now I can't get food as a middle class person.
• 29:44
  And it is all because this one man in Beijing has the idea that
• 29:50
  everybody should stay at home.
• 29:53
  So I think that is a moment for him to realize that,
• 29:57
  you know,
• 29:57
  I have no rights.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, you know, I was working hard.
• 30:02
  I shut up about politics and,
• 30:05
  you know,
• 30:05
  I'm doing well,
• 30:06
  but financial wise,
• 30:09
  life is fine.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But then, you know, it's not.
• 30:15
  Yacho,
• 30:15
  can you,
• 30:17
  I suppose you must,
• 30:18
  because people must live with hope and all that.
• 30:21
  Can you envision a scenario in which China liberalizes,
• 30:29
  even democratizes?
• 30:31
  When you dream,
• 30:34
  can you see a way that the communist Chinese dictatorship might
• 30:42
  fall?
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think it will fall.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just don't think the kind of a control and repression is sustainable.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: It just not.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think force, it comes from a belief.
• 30:59
  This is really a conviction that I really believe that
• 31:04
  everybody really wants to be free.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted to think freely.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted to express them freely.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it comes from this conviction.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: people sort of ignored that the fact that they had no rights,
• 31:18
  they just moved on from all this past traumas that are
• 31:22
  inflicted about the
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Communist Party was because they were traded.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: The trade off was that they would have economic growth.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So there was this, you know,
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: sort of, I agree to this thing.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I wouldn't say, I would take it aback.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't agree to it.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: You can not bargain with the Chinese Communist Party.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: They just, what's the English word?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: resigned to it.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: So they resigned to it.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it was fine, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: You had economic growth and you just shut up about politics.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: But the money is not working anymore.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: The Chinese economy is not doing well.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: a way of manifesting the protesting of the Chinese government is through,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: people don't wanna have children anymore.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's impossible to go against Chinese government.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: The thing I can do is control whether I have offspring.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the population decline is a clear sign that people have no confidence
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: in the party anymore.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And also this is one, right?
• 32:22
  I just don't think the repression is sustainable,
• 32:25
  especially in light of economic downturn.
• 32:27
  The other really is that as we mentioned,
• 32:30
  Taiwan is Chinese culture,
• 32:32
  right?
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hong Kong is Chinese culture.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are Chinese people living around the world.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And all those people are for democracy, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: When there's a chance, they want a democracy.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: They want freedom.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: it's my conviction,
• 32:47
  but the conviction is aligned with what I have observed of
• 32:53
  Chinese people when they
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: are in a free condition.
• 32:55
  So,
• 32:56
  you know,
• 32:59
  I don't frame it as whether the Chinese Communist Party will
• 33:03
  fall.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think it might fall.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think it will fall.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like we needed to wait for the moment.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Deal with this for me, if you will.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: Deal with this.
• 33:16
  All my life I heard,
• 33:20
  political liberalization follows economic liberalization.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: As night follows day, one thing follows the other.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you liberalize economically, political liberalization will come.
• 33:31
  I even heard someone who became Secretary of State,
• 33:33
  Condoleezza Rice,
• 33:34
  call this an iron law.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: An iron law.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not so sure it's a law.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 33:44
  I would say that the economic growth in China did bring liberal
• 33:52
  values into the Chinese people.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: So the values, I think, still stay with people.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_00: They want freedom.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: They wanted to govern themselves.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that awareness
• 34:08
  is with people,
• 34:10
  especially because it's hard for other people to believe
• 34:14
  because
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't find that in the media.
• 34:19
  You don't see interviews of Chinese people saying that because
• 34:21
  the repercussion is so huge.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: But I am Chinese.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm living with Chinese people.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, people say that.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: People express that in more private setting.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I do think the awareness is there.
• 34:34
  People still want freedom,
• 34:36
  especially,
• 34:36
  you know,
• 34:37
  after going through zero COVID lockdown.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that was still the,
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: the positive effect of economic growth,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: more opportunities going abroad,
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: more exchanges with,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Western countries.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: the party has also gotten better at repression,
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: especially with technology.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my gosh.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: The surveillance state is amazing.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_02: What they've done in Xinjiang,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: over the Uyghurs,
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: it seems to me like a perfect Orwellian state.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Purely dystopian.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing I always wanted to express to...
• 35:18
  Foreigners is that,
• 35:19
  yes,
• 35:19
  China doesn't have Facebook,
• 35:22
  Twitter,
• 35:23
  X,
• 35:24
  you know,
• 35:25
  other apps.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: But Chinese people enjoy the alternative versions of all of that,
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: except that there's no political content on it.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: Of course,
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: their political content only from the Chinese government,
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: but there are no alternative political content.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not like people live in, you know, entertainment poverty.
• 35:42
  People just enjoy their regular life without the,
• 35:46
  you know,
• 35:46
  the political stuff.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:49
  the party just created this society just that you cannot talk
• 35:53
  about politics,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: but they supplied all other things to make you feel,
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: life is interesting.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there are things I can find and do.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yachou, do people in China have a way of communicating with you?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_02: Are they able to help you with your work, to thank you for your work?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: criticize you even.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: In other words,
• 36:17
  is there such an opportunity for people in China to communicate
• 36:20
  with you or is it
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: too risky for them?
• 36:24
  First of all,
• 36:25
  there are people I talk to that are just,
• 36:28
  you know,
• 36:28
  we do it in a secure way.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, you know, tell it publicly.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm very careful of that.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: I do have that channel and it's still possible.
• 36:39
  Then there are the people who came to me because they are in
• 36:43
  desperate situations.
• 36:44
  And that is actually a quite substantial number in terms of my
• 36:49
  communication with
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: people in China.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_00: Just an example,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: a father wrote to me a few times,
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: in long letters describing that,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: they live in a building,
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: a residential building.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_00: Then his five-year-old daughter fell from the rooftop because the ladder,
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: the bar is not high enough.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the little girl just climbed off and fell and died, right?
• 37:16
  So there are standards,
• 37:18
  I mean,
• 37:18
  in terms of how high the ladder,
• 37:20
  is that ladder or the...
• 37:22
  the bar do you know what the fence keep going yeah yeah the
• 37:26
  fence is uh not high
• 37:28
  enough so he wanted to sue the company right so of course the
• 37:32
  company was in
• 37:32
  cahoots with the government so this is such a local issue a so
• 37:37
  local issue that i
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: of course could not help address right but if he found
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: and wrote to me in such lands, it says how desperate he is.
• 37:49
  So this is just one example of just the injustice people are
• 37:54
  suffering that they
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: could,
• 37:56
  and the fact that they could not find anywhere to tell their
• 37:59
  story that they could
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: not find anywhere to seek redress,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: just the desperation of those people,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: that they would eventually find an organization,
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: at that time I was working on a human rights watch,
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: that it was sanctioned by the Chinese government.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: He needs to tell this little story to me.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yaccio,
• 38:17
  I shouldn't interject a light note when we're talking about
• 38:19
  such grave matters,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: but I can't believe you know the phrase,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: in cahoots with.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: How long have you been in America?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: Almost 15 years now.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_02: In cahoots with, I love it.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Funny question, but you'll know what I mean.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Did you choose this work or did it choose you?
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: I really feel it's a calling.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as I mentioned in the beginning that as a little child,
• 38:55
  I just could not understand that why we couldn't just say what
• 38:59
  we actually think,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: why we have to pretend things that we all know is not true.
• 39:07
  Also,
• 39:07
  you know,
• 39:08
  I wanted to mention that I was born the third child of my
• 39:10
  family.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: So at that time, China had the one-child policy.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: So my older brother had a disability.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: So my sister, who was also older, was a legal child.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I was the illegal child.
• 39:23
  So my mother had to hide when she was pregnant with me because
• 39:31
  if the government officials
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_00: If she were walking on the street in daylight and,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: in our little village,
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: the official find her being pregnant,
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: they would take her to get an abortion.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: So in order to avoid that,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: she would always hide during daytime,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: then,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: do activities at night.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that was how I was born.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was able to be born.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: So my birth itself is a human rights story.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: Growing up,
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: I always got the propaganda that extra children,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: we're called extra children,
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: are burdened to the society.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I always carry this shame that I was the burden to the society.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: So even during elementary school,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't dare,
• 40:10
  I didn't want to go to school with my sister because then
• 40:14
  people would find that I
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: had a sibling and it's a shame.
• 40:17
  So I carried that shame until I came to America and I realized
• 40:21
  that I had siblings
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_00: is normal and I should not be ashamed for being born as the third child.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: I had done nothing wrong to be born and you should not control people,
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: family for how many children they should have.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: So whether I was born to do this work,
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was born,
• 40:43
  my birth story is a story of the Chinese government's
• 40:48
  unbelievable human rights
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: abuse.
• 40:50
  And did I hear you say earlier that now China's suffering from
• 40:54
  a population decline?
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now they want babies?
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And people are feeling so resentful for the government's policy.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now they want more babies.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are we people?
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_00: Are we human beings?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: when you felt there were too many Chinese people,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_00: you can show how many children we have –
• 41:17
  in such an abusive way when they're literally taken off the
• 41:21
  street to have an abortion,
• 41:23
  right?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Now you want to have more children.
• 41:25
  People almost feel like,
• 41:27
  great,
• 41:28
  now you're suffering the consequence of it.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: I understand completely.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yacho Wong, thank you for putting up with my pronunciation.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're doing good.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: Relatively, right?
• 41:44
  Before we go,
• 41:46
  give us a thing or two or three that you wish people could
• 41:51
  know.
• 41:54
  You want to take people by the shoulders and say,
• 41:56
  listen,
• 41:57
  understand this,
• 41:58
  whatever it is.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: Number one,
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: I really,
• 42:03
  really want Americans to know that what they have is very good
• 42:09
  and they should
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: cherish it and fight for the freedom you still have.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel like some Americans are so accustomed to
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: democracy and freedom for 250 years,
• 42:25
  they start to feel how precious that is and how lucky Americans
• 42:32
  have always been.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe your luck is running out.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: So please defend the freedom you still have.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: I want really to shake Americans.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you still have this opportunity.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Please defend the freedom you have.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Once you lose it, you know,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: you will just feel,
• 42:53
  don't get to the stage that you start to regret that we don't
• 42:56
  have freedom anymore.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: Just the simple ability,
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: the simple lack of inhibition when you criticize,
• 43:06
  when you mock your president is such a precious thing that you
• 43:10
  should treasure.
• 43:13
  The second thing is that I really want Americans and the rest
• 43:19
  of the world to know that
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Chinese people still want freedom, still want democracy.
• 43:25
  It's just the repression is so severe that it's really hard to
• 43:34
  express it.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: And the fear has so internalized that, you know,
• 43:42
  Some people,
• 43:42
  they don't even feel they want it because wanting it is so
• 43:47
  dangerous.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: So they sort of rationalize by saying, I don't want it.
• 43:52
  But if you engage with Chinese people in a more prolonged time
• 43:55
  in a real intimate
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: setting,
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think people oftentimes will express,
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: I want my freedom.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: I want democracy.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I want people to keep this in mind.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Ladies and gentlemen, I am Jay Nordlinger doing Q&A.
• 44:12
  We've been listening to Yacho Wong,
• 44:15
  extra child,
• 44:16
  special child,
• 44:17
  great child.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for being you.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Yacho.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Till next time, everyone.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: So long.