Latest / Salt of the Earth / 113: Jade Killoran _ Healthy Farming Systems

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113: Jade Killoran _ Healthy Farming Systems · Salt of the Earth

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Sold of the Earth Farm Story.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: Ever wondered what makes a pasture really thrive?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm chatting with Jade Killeran.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: She's a multi-species pasture advisor armed with an ag science degree and a genuine love for what she does.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: We talk annuals, perennials, and multi-species mixes.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Why diversity matters.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: What to sow in spring and in autumn.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: Why grazing management can make or break a system, how to get the pasture renovation right.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, we tackle C3 and C4 plants.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: Don't panic.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: Jade makes it make sense.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: Most of all, Jade is firmly in the farmer's corner.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: She says, She'll back a farmer any day.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is proudly brought to you by Kiwa Catchment Landcare Groups.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Let's get into it.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Good morning, Jade.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: Good morning, Darren.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Jade, it's really good to see you.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: I know you're a person in high demand, so I appreciate your time today.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me first up, Jade, just a little bit about you?
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm very lucky to have my dream job.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: I work as an independent advisor across Victoria, mostly southern and central Victoria, across beef and dairy farms predominantly.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I put together paddock scale projects for mostly land care networks, but also some private clients, to really sort of crunch the numbers on multi-species pastures and to see what changes we can make to the farming system.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: So from an economic perspective, but also from a more environmental and system health perspective as well.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So you do a fair bit of travelling.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: I do, I do, but uh luckily I like driving and I love getting out on farms.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very, very lucky to be doing what I'm doing.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And is agronomy your passion?
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: It is, undoubtedly.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, good.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, today I want to talk about um multi-species pasture.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: But first up, can you spell out the meaning of perennials and annuals?
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so annuals are a 12-month plant.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: They have a very short life cycle, they emerge, establish, and set seed all in the one year, and they're not a long-lived plant.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they're useful in certain contexts, but we are probably in a farming system most likely aiming to move towards a more perennial base.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Perennials are a much longer-lived plant species.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: They should last at least three plus years in the system, so they're very distinct from annuals.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And although they do set seed, the regeneration is mostly from mother plants from the original seed that we sow.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: So would you say that annuals are more for feed, immediate feed?
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So they they do produce very fast feed, so because they're completing that life cycle in 12 months, they are very quick to establish and they're quick to produce leaf matter, which can be grazed.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it depends on the goal of the farming system.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if it is a fodder perspective goal, annuals can be very appropriate in that system, but they can also be these multi-species mixes, particularly, tweaked in terms of the mix ratios and species and the goals of the mix to a soil health perspective as well.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they can definitely be both.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Alright, so um perennials, three plus years and what, maybe up to 10 or 20 years?
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it depends a little bit on the climate and the topography and the species that's picked and the way it's managed in the farming system, but certainly very, very long-lived.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: There are uh valorous and ryegrass pastures that I've seen that are in that plus ten year life cycle.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as they're suited, well suited to their environment and that they're well managed, they can be very long-lived.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where the the return on investment from those pastures comes from.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: So they can be quite expensive to get the system to the point where the perennials will thrive, and they are a relatively expensive exercise to sow into a paddock, purchase the seed and do the preparation.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: But once they are in the system for a long enough time, they do become very cost-effective.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So, Jade, how do the annual species fit alongside the perennials?
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I do like about the annual multi-species is we can use them to get to a perennial pasture system.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: So the ultimate aim is to have perennial pastures, whether they're traditional past perennial pasture species or multi-species pastures across a reasonable part of the farm.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: But to get there, the annual multi-species pastures can complement those perennial systems on the way.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: So the first one is obviously they offer a method of renovating tired perennial pastures, so they can do a lot of heavy lifting in terms of creating that soil and plant health change, and they cope with suboptimal conditions much more effectively than a perennial would.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, as a general rule of thumb, I'd sew an annual multi-species mix first and then move towards a perennial system as that soil health and plant health changes.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're wondering whether you can sow a perennial mix or whether you need to go through that annual renovation phase first, look, ideally, as a general rule of thumb, I'd say you would, but you can diagnose that as well yourself by looking at your paddock and the succession level that your plants are at.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in an annual species phase, pasture phase, and you haven't had much success maintaining desirable perennials in the past, that's a pretty good sign that you're in that annual species phase, particularly if you're looking at your weeds and their annuals, especially if they're starting to dominate paddocks, that's a really strong indicator that you are firmly in that annual pioneer plant phase, and annuals would be best to sow.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you are in a really perennial-based phase, you might be able to go straight to perennials.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think the vast majority of cases starting off with those annuals is better.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: So what I like about them is they're lower risk in that renovation phase because we have a lot of opportunity to outcompete, you know, weeds, grow away from disease, and they do a lot of that heavy lifting of catalyzing change.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: The other is that we've got sort of regular control points where we can go in and change something or control something that needs several goes at it, that needs amelioration over time.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it gives us opportunities, multiple opportunities before we get to that perennial phase to control and change the system.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: The second one is if we are using them strategically rather than looking at them as just solely a renovation phase, having some annuals alongside perennial pasture bases on the farm, they actually do create that really fast feed and really high quality feed.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And particularly on the shoulders of the season where our perennial pastures are either in autumn taking a long time to get going or in spring starting to shut down or late spring.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: The annual multi-species can create really good feeds if they've got enough moisture on the shoulders of those seasons really quite rapidly to sort of flatten out that pasture supply curve.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's a can be a really sharp curve on some farms, and if we use those annual multi-species alongside our perennials, we can start to grow more feed into the shoulders of the season and have more feed available across the year.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_00: So they can be quite beneficial, yes, from a renovation phase to to move towards perennials, but complementarily they can also be quite strategically used on farm or feed gap reduction as well.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So they can actually play a role in a perennial-based system where we do use them quite strategically.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I don't think on a farm it's uh all annuals and then all perennials.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think there could be a nice hybrid mosaic that's best suits the farming system and what that farming system demands.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in simple terms, what's a multi-species pasture system?
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so a multi-species, well, for one, in a livestock system, we'd like to sow edible plants.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they're definitely edible plants in the system, so there's very much a odd focus on the multi-species.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what sets them apart from a more traditional pasture blend is that they're really designed to complement each other, so we're looking for diversity in the pasture mix from an above-ground perspective that the plants work together and complement each other and produce good feed, but there is an underlying soil health perspective and focus that really I think sets the multi-species apart from a more traditional pasture mix because we can create functional diversity within a multi-species mix that really starts to change soil health and positively.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that real focus on soil health is slightly what has been missing in say the last 40 or 50 years, and it's starting to come back into the system and be a big focus, and the multi-species with that functional diversity really helps us achieve that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: So within this multi-species, you might have uh would you have some clovers to bring in some nitrogen and then some other species there for perhaps winter feed or summer feed?
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So usually when I'm starting off uh putting together a multi-species mix for a farmer, I like to start off with four plant groups.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, grasses certainly have to be in the mix, legumes, and then the the plant group that is a little bit missing in action sometimes is the tall and short broadleaves.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to have those four major plant groups in a mix because they create that functional diversity that we're after.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So they have different functions and tasks above and below ground, and that's where they start to complement each other.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So certainly we need legumes in the mix, particularly at the start when we're getting the soil health improved.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're a great food source and they start to catalyse the system, those legumes, particularly.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we can sow different mixes at different times of the year to have that activity across the season.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we can either have when we're starting off more of an annual-based system, which has potentially an autumn sewing, and depending on the environment, a spring-summer sewing as well, if that's appropriate, it's a bit more opportunistic.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we can have autumn, winter, and spring active species from that autumn sewing, and we can have spring and summer active species from the summer sewing.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's from an annual perspective.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: From a perennial perspective, once we get to that type of system, then we can sew a mix still ticking off on those functional groups, but we can sew a mix that has activity for as much of the year as we think we can manage across that mix and in that particular environment that the mix is going into.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: So from an annual perspective, it might take one to two sowings to create that growth across the season, and from a perennial species mix, depending on the environment, we could have most of the year, if not all of the year, covered by different plants in the mix that will respond to rainfall at different times.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Can we have too many species in the one mix?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, yes, definitely.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think at the start, aiming for about eight plant species, particularly when a farmer's starting off, the system health, particularly the soil health and the biological activity, might not quite be there, might not be functioning as well as it could be.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where with those really broad mixes, you know, 20, 30, 40 species, sometimes people get a bit excited.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those species, if they're sown into an environment that's that's not quite functioning at its peak, some of those species by default are going to be a little bit less able to tolerate those conditions than other species in the mix, and they may not even germinate or express themselves.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So certainly when you're starting off, aiming for a relatively simple mix, as long as you're ticking off those major plant groups, will give you enough functional diversity without becoming too complex or too expensive, and bearing in mind that you can always add diversity over time.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not essential to do it all at once at the start.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably more appropriate to pick some really tried and tested species that work well in your local area, combine them into a mix that's cost effective, and then as your system starts to respond and improve to that functional diversity and that creation of soil change, then you can add diversity once you become a bit more confident and the system is moving along over time.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh do you have a favourite legume?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it depends where I am in the environment.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I mean, for Southern Victoria, uh clover is um is the the general legume of choice, but I do from just from trying to add a little bit more diversity into that legume space, I do like to see some some field peas and some vetch.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, field peas work pretty well from an autumn sowing, and um vetch I find in southern Victoria in these cooler climates actually does quite well from a spring sewing in a lot of um situations.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: So provided there's moisture in the spring, vetch can actually sort of shade across into being a spring and slightly summer active legume, even though it's not tropical, usually it's sown in the autumn.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I actually see in cooler environments it doing quite well, nodulating quite well in that spring sewing opportunity as well.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Are their main purpose to add nitrogen or uh pr predominantly to add nitrogen, but they also add quality to the above-ground biomass.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: So particularly if you're doing something dual purpose with your multi-species mix and you're aiming potentially to graze it but then to lock it up for silage or hay, um, those other legumes can add a bit of bulk above ground, a little bit more potentially than clover, particularly because they're upright, they tend to twine around the ryegrasses and the cereals if you've got those in the mix, um, and they do add a bit more quality to silage and hay.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So there there is a little bit of benefit above ground as well as nitrogen fixation.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: Are there a few reliable species that you like?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: From an autumn sowing, if we're if we're heading back to annuals at the start, I do like cereals provided they don't uh get wet feet, so we have to pick the paddocks they go into, but they're a very good fast, bulky option.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I do really like oats, long season forage oats if we're in that type of medium to high rainfall cooler environment, or faster cereals if we're going a little bit further north.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: Uh ryegrass, annual ryegrass is always a good option just to fill in all the gaps in a multi-species mix, you know, underneath the main story, I suppose.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're the understory.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, clovers, of course, annual clovers are great in that mix.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a couple of other legumes, like we've talked about, maybe vegetal field peas or even faber beans, but that they are a big seed, so they need a little bit of sowing depth.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then the brassicas, they're they're really handy in a mix, so things like tillage radish, fodder rape, maybe some turnips, but certainly tillage radish and fodder rape would probably more be my go-to from an autumn sowing.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe a little bit of limb seed as well for soil health, so that's sown at a very low rate.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a fodder species, but it does help some soil parameters.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: From a spring sewing, if it's a really early spring sewing, some of our, particularly our grasses, are very temperature sensitive.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So from an early spring sowing, I tend to stick more to that autumn mix that I've just described.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if the soil's not sort of 14 degrees and up, those early spring sowings, if we can traffic paddocks, shade more to those autumn species.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: But once we're starting to get into say 14 degree soil temp for millet and 16 to 18 for our sorghums and corns, then we start being able to sow those summer active temp sensitive species.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So millet I do like because we can sow it a little bit earlier as the grass species in a mix.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the brassicas, buckwheat from a soil health perspective, some flowers always like to see them in the mix.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're not only do they look gorgeous, but they do have quite a few important roles as well.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Some clovers, some summer active clovers if we can.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: If we're a little bit further north, tropical legumes can come into play, but um in sort of central and southern Victoria they're they're not so reliable.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe if the system permits a little bit of chicory as well as a more perennial species, but it depends where the the mix is and where the soil health and the goals for the paddock are as to whether we put the chicory in over the spring and summer.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So those are from an annual perspective.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: From a perennial perspective, I do like again to see those broad groups, so uh legumes, grasses and broadleaf.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, particularly we pick on the herbs in a perennial mix, so chicory and plantain are the most readily available.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the clovers and the grasses, from a perennial perspective, will really depend where they're going in and what environment they're in as to which species we pick.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_00: But that's the general rule of thumb for perennials.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually probably less diverse mixes than the annual multi-species, because we go back to what really suits an environment, but we're still aiming that for that functional diversity with our grasses, legumes, and tall and short poured leaves.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: You've got a lot to choose from.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: This must get complicated.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: It can be complicated, but as long as the farmer has a really good idea of the goals for the mix, they can really help to fine-tune the mix.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it's a fodder goal first and foremost or a soil health goal first and foremost, it can be a mix of both, but as long as the primary goal is known, that can really help to sort the mix specs out, and also the environment that it's going to into as well.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the I suppose flow onto that is when livestock in the system, what quality of feed we need, what quantity of feed we need, and then when we need the feed.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: So those parameters, I suppose, as long as we focus on those and are really clear on what the mix needs to do and the environment that it's going into, we can cut out a lot of the complexity of choosing species because they will, with a little bit of background knowledge, I suppose, sort themselves out into what's appropriate to be in the mix and what's not.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um are there key signs when a pasture species is just starting to slip?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are, yeah.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as fertility and moisture are in good supply, if the pasture's starting to slip, you'll probably notice a little bit less dry matter grown per season or per year.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you might have, if you're putting stock in there, you might have less grazing days than you did in the past.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, if you look down at the pasture sward as such, you could see some thinning of those desirable species that you've got in the mix, and you could start to see weeds creeping in and disease issues.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: So they're all signs that the pasture is getting a little bit old and tired, and that you should probably think about either changing the management if there are management changes that could be made, or potentially renovating the pasture if it's got to that point.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: So you mean grazing management?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: I do.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or um if if fertiliser is if it's not quite as adequate as it could be, you could change the fertiliser parameters for that paddock or that pasture.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: But certainly grazing management, if that's not quite optimal for the pasture sword that we're dealing with, that can have a really positive effect.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: But if you've got all your ducks in a row and the pasture's still slipping, then it probably is a good sign that it needs to be renovated.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: So can grazing management fix more than we think?
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think in a lot of cases, yes, definitely.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm a huge fan of grazing management.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, for livestock producers, that's the first thing that I focus on on a farm, and it's the biggest bang for buck in terms of what a livestock farmer can do to grow dry matter across the year, which of course is what farming livestock is all about.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, one of the best ways to really change that system for the better is to have really, really good grazing management on desirable pasture species.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a little bit of chicken and egg, but I think the grazing management, optimizing that first, creates a lot of positive change in the system, potentially before we need to sow anything at all, particularly if we're coming from a farm that is, say, set stocked or overstocked or has a very low level of rotational grazing management, there can be a really huge and quite rapid change in the production, the plant diversity and the plant health and pasture recovery, you know, throughout the season just by improving grazing management.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it can be quite intensive and it is time and labour consuming, but it is amazing how much grazing management can change the system.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's the sort of above ground stuff that we can see, but what's less noticeable but and a little bit slower to change would be the change in soil health as those plants start to inject.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Interact more with the soil and the soil biology and start to influence that health, you know, with their root systems and their exudates and that liquid carbon pathway that they create with the soil biology.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if you've got really, really good grazing management already in the system, you might and and you're you've reached a plateau, you might try to change other management practices.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, selling a multi-species or maybe going down a biological fertiliser pathway or something like that.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: But certainly if you're a livestock farmer and you don't think your grazing management is as intensive or as well managed as it could be, that is definitely where to start.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: I love seeing a good rotational grazing system.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um do you think we've got you didn't know this question was coming either, by the way, but do you think we've got in general like two bigger paddocks?
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Could we make them smaller?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think making I mean the general rule of to boil it down to to one sentence, making paddocks smaller and mobs larger, that's really the aim of the game.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And Australia is such a big place, and we do have huge paddocks in comparison to what we could have.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Infrastructure costs are obviously quite large when we're talking about itty-bitty paddocks, but it is a huge return on investment if we have the the capital to go and divide up our paddocks into really small paddocks.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Either permanently, obviously, is more cost, more outlay at the outset, temporary fencing if if you're wanting to see how it could change your system, doing some temporary fencing and reducing the the start-up cost to see how it changed your system, that could be a good place to start too.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe the virtual fencing might come into play a bit more soon too, and a bit more affordable.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's such an exciting space.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: It it is quite costly at the minute to implement.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: It it probably the return on investment is in more intensive systems like dairy at the minute from a livestock perspective, or really, really big beef and sheep concerns.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think as the technology becomes more available and more cost effective, it's just going to be wonderful for grazing systems.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: I was on a property a few years ago and they were full on into the holistic farming practices, and they had 90 paddocks and they were moving their stock every afternoon at just after lunch.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think with about 600 head in that mob.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And their idea was just for that cow to take one bite out of that plant and then move them on.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: The pasture recovered immediately uh and it was ready to come back on in 90 days, but that was pretty intense, but I loved it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think the rule of thumb, I I mean, for me, daily grazing moves or even multiple moves a day, that that's the perfect system.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: But it does depend on how practical that is for the farmer.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I think daily moves would be wonderful, but anywhere from daily moves to moves every three days, that's about the sweet spot.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Any more than that, and you start, as you said, Darren, to see that that second bite on pasture systems and and plants within the sward, and that's where the um the overgrazing of desirable species and the undergrazing of undesirable species starts to come in.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: So we start to stress out the desirable plants in a system and favour a reduction, I suppose, in palatability and and species over time if we do start overgrazing.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: Do you find it quite clever, like that animal sheep are quite clever at it in picking just exactly what their gut needs at that time?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, they can do.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that but they do like they can self-medicate, but they do also like to pick a bit like us at a buffet, they like to pick the things that they also like eating.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So although they're quite clever in balancing out their diet, they will, if they're allowed to, pick the the yummy things in the sward that they really like eating, and if they happen to be plants that they also need in in their rumen and for their health, then they'll pick those two.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: But often we see sort of a little bit of a compromise between what ideally they would be eating and what they are actually eating.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a certain amount of self-selection and self-medication with stock, but there's also their ability to overgraze palatable species as well.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: I saw some cattle the other day hooking into the cape weed over some nice grasses out there, I'm thinking.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_01: But it must have been a little bit sweeter, perhaps.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: It could have been sweeter, or they could be chasing bean of broadleaf.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: It could have just been at the perfect stage for them to eat where they consider it the most palatable, or it could be the the higher quality potentially, the protein and the energy that they're chasing out of those broadleaves.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes in summer Victoria we call cape weed cape feed because it can be, even though we don't love to see it in a mix uh in a pasture sword if it's becoming dominant, it can be sometimes a valuable addition, particularly if there's not a lot of other broadleaf species in the paddock.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um if you do need to renovate, what are the key steps?
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's super crucial to get the renovation program right.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if anyone's going to take a key message out of today, it's probably grazing management and the importance of getting renovation right.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: So the key step is to understand why you're renovating and what the best preparation method for that paddock is.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: The preparation method is really crucial.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: So that means in a livestock system, the control method for the existing plants that you've got in that paddock, the sewing machinery that you're going to use, the seed selection and the fertiliser, so they're the major four things that you need to focus on.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: But out of those four things, while they're all crucial, that paddock preparation is really paramount.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So when we're sowing a pasture mix, whether it's a traditional pasture mix or a multi-species, allowing that mix to establish solves 90% of problems.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: So if we're talking about chemical and cultivation, there is, I suppose, an aim in this more sustainable regenerative space to try and reduce the amount of chemical or cultivation that we're using.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: But I have been lucky enough to be sowing sort of paddock scale trials now for about eight years, and I've been observing that you know across all types of soils and climates in Victoria.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And from my observations and and a lot of chats to other to farmers as well as those projects, the level of intervention that we need is usually involves some sort of chemical or cultivation event.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there are some small amounts of pastures that can just be say direct drilled into, and sometimes there's a great response, but it's very, very rare.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: So there's usually some level of intervention needed to create the space for that pasture mix to go in because we have some form of ground cover usually in the paddock.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: Unless it's really, really degraded, there's something already there, pasture species that are already there that are taking up space and moisture and nutrients, and they will compete with what you're sowing if you don't create space in that paddock.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the sewing isn't likely to be particularly successful if there is some level of ground cover in that paddock.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: So the goal should be to do just enough intervention to establish the pasture mix while trying to minimize the effect we have on soil and soil biology.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: So the chemical and cultivation, picking whichever is your most comfortable with would be the way to go, but they do have their role to play strategically in preparing the paddock.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, for example, if I was to go into a paddock and advise on either a chemical or a cultivation approach, chemicals are for those fragile soils where the soil retaining the soil structure is paramount, so we don't want to disturb that structure in any way because it's it's a sandy soil or it's on a slope or there's some other reason why we really need that soil structure to be retained, particularly if the paddock's quite smooth and we don't need to create a seed bed, chemical can be quite a good option there.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Cultivation is for those heavier soils, they're much more resilient.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: So our loams to clays, that type that side of the board, they're much more resilient to a cultivation event, and sometimes they actually need a little bit of aeration and they might need a seed bed to be created, especially if the paddock's a bit rough.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the types of soils that would lend themselves more to cultivation.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a very broad scenario fit, I suppose, but hopefully that's helpful.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: I've just seen a yeoman's player in action over the last 12 months on some ground that really hadn't been touched possibly for a hundred years or ore, but like turned over, I should say.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just cracking that hard clay pan down the bottom, but keeping a lot of the biology still there.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: It made the paddock rough for a little while, but um eventually they'll smooth that out.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: But the benefits were obvious.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: They were ploughing along the contour, so it was holding up some moisture on a slope, and um, it's been fantastic.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think even though I do like the term roots not iron, I I like to do as much as I can with plants rather than anything mechanical.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: There are, as you've said, Darren, really key scenarios where that mechanical intervention can be really beneficial for the system.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then the the plants that you choose to pop into that system, you can you can build upon that mechanical intervention if you've done it first.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it it does need to be analysed as to whether the mechanical intervention is needed, but in some scenarios, doing that first and then allowing the plants to continue that good work can be super beneficial.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and how important is timing?
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, that's right.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So look, in a perfect world, we would sow into a paddock that's got soil moisture there already with rain a few days after sowing, when temperatures are optimal.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that would be just delightful.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: It can produce an outstanding result.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: So trying to be timely with sewing is really important.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: But of course, if a farmer's got quite a big farm, there will be paddocks that are sown in just the right conditions, and there will of course be paddocks where the seasons changed a little bit, and we're very dependent on those seasonal conditions.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: So often we do just have to do the best we can.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: But if a farmer's well prepared for the sewing event, they've got the seed in advance, they know what sewing machinery they're going to use, if they have a contractor, the contractor's booked in, all of those things can really help to create good timing.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: But again, we are at the the whim of the season.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: So while we can prepare as much as possible, there is still that seasonal condition that we need to deal with.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it is really important to get timing and moisture as right as we can, but obviously we can only work with what we've got in terms of the season.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Are you seeing a shift more towards organic fertilizer?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing a shift towards, in some instances, towards a more biological-based approach.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_00: So things like compost manures, um, folia fertilizers as well.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So in the case of urea, I do see farmers exploring the shift from a granular product to a folia because they can really reduce the the units of N that they're putting out and distribute them straight onto the leaf, and then the leaf uptakes them, the plant uptakes them quite efficiently.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Quicker, you mean?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: It is quicker.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's quicker acting, and it's it there's no dissolving of their product into the soil, any catalyzing by the biology and then uptaking by the plant.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's all uptaken by the plant, so it's really readily available.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it depends what form that nitrogen takes as well.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: So dissolved urea is popular, but there's also nitrogen in you know something like a fish hydrolysate, not a lot, but the fish hydrolysate nitrogen is really readily available as well.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And there are other products that have a little bit of nitrogen in them from a biological perspective that are really readily uptaken by plants.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: It is quite efficient, and I think with the plant tissue test, what I do like about the folias is if we can ascertain what that plant is actually limited in, we can go out with a foli and put it on the plant at the time and the rate that it's needed and the particular nutrient or suite of nutrients that's needed.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: So folias can be very effective, but I still think there's room to have really good soil-based fertility and also to integrate foliars into the program as well.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes, there's a shift towards folias and more biologically based fertilizers, but there's also still a lot of farmers using granular products and synthetic products as well.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think however we get our fertility, it is important to have the fertility appropriate.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: But I would I would welcome, I suppose, a shift to a a more biologically based slash fertilizer slash folia fertilizer program, if it's appropriate for that far.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: As temperatures rise, are there species that are starting to struggle?
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: So as a general rule, a lot of our European species, particularly our ryegrasses, I'm I'm probably in a very ryegrass-dominated part of Victoria, I suppose, being in that southern and and slightly central Victorian area.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And ryegrass has been the pasture species of choice for a very long time, but it does flourish in moist environments, so it's cold adapted and quite shallow-rooted.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And as we start to see the temperatures rise, particularly if we're starting to have harsh summers, that particularly late maturity ryegrass, the the ryegrass varieties that that need a long season to really express themselves, they're probably the shrinking violet or the canary in the coal mine that I'm seeing in my area, but in other areas that might be different pasture species.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: But certainly, as a general rule of thumb, anything that's shallow rooted, as our temperatures rise and we start to see more periods of of dry conditions, those shallow rooted species will start to be the ones that struggle.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: The deeper rooted species will be as it as a default more drought tolerant.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, okay.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's quite a lot of scientific guff behind the behind that, but in really simple terms, C3 plants form the majority of plant species, so they're about 95% of plant species.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And the way they photosynthesize is different from a C4 species.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_00: So C3 plants have a different leaf structure, and they photosynthesize most effectively when it's cool and temperate, I suppose.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: So most autumn to spring active species that we will sow are C3 species.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: C4 plants have evolved in different environments, so they photosynthesize very effectively in hot and dry environments.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: So their ability to fix CO2 in hot and dry conditions is much more efficient and they minimise photorespiration.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I won't get too deep into that because I think I'm edging into a bit of science there.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: But if we've if we're thinking C4 species, that's usually stuff that's summer active, particularly the grass family.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: So things like um corn, millet, sorghum, if we're talking about native species, maybe kangaroo grass, windmill grass, those are the types of species that are C4 plants.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh-huh.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so you said native species, we can put them into the mix too?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, uh we should probably not get too excited about that, Darren.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: I really like native species, but they're not overly competitive and they are quite expensive to sow, and they can be difficult to sow through a conventional cedar.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: So while I really like native species and I think they have a really good role to play in Australian livestock systems, they're they are difficult to put into a multi-species, particularly if we're in that annual phase because they just won't compete with those highly competitive annual species.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: If we're starting to get to the point in the farming system where we're going to sow perennials and they're going to really thrive, potentially trialling some native species in some areas that we think will suit them in that farming environment could be a good way to go.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or if for some reason they're starting to pop up in paddocks, that's a really good sign that we've changed the system from a soil health perspective where they're starting to emerge naturally.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have seen that in central Victoria, that we change the soil environment with some multi-species pastures and a shift in fertilizer usually as well.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: And some of those native species start to pop up, and then they can be celebrated and really managed quite well.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be a case that they start to appear in the farming system, or you might have a farm where there are patches of native species that are already on the farm.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: They should be preserved and celebrated, but I perhaps wouldn't sow them into a multi-species mix because they're not super competitive, unfortunately.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I have picked up on in the last few years talking to some native seed suppliers and some people that are very knowledgeable in that space is that we have unfortunately less functional diversity in the native species market, I suppose, particularly in the commercial availability of some of those seeds.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: So the grass family is fantastically well represented from a native species point of view, but the the broadleaves and the legumes, we have a lot less diversity and a lot less species available to us from a commercial perspective in those groups.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I I did say to someone, well, if you had a native grass sward and you didn't have a lot of legume and broadleaf diversity, could you potentially trickle in a low rate of some of our European species that take care of those other functional groups?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: And they thought that might be potentially a good way to go to go about it while we while I suppose the native species commercial supply of those other functional groups ramps up.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: So grasses, yes, fantastic.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a lot of opportunity there to celebrate and and manage native grasses in the system, but unfortunately from a functional diversity point of view, we don't yet have the availability of those other groups as much.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Chad, is there one thing when you're driving around that you could see a lot of farmers could do tomorrow to improve their pasture system?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it is from a pasture system perspective that grazing management.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: The multi-species can be a good flow-on from good grazing management, but there's a lot of really positive change that could be affected by better grazing management and and better integration of supply and demand to farming systems.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we can create a lot of diversity naturally within pastures if our grazing management is really optimised, because as we alluded to before, if we have desirable species in the pasture and we're managing for those, they will stick around in the system and they will create positive change and they might improve plant diversity over time just naturally to a certain level if the seed is in the seed bank, because we've changed those soil conditions by treating our plants better, I suppose.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think grazing management for me is just absolutely key.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm loving this chat, Jade.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're very clever.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Dave.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: We're up to the off-the-wall questions, Jade.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: These are a little bit quirky, all right, a little bit fun.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: If your pasture could talk, what would it complain about most?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, um, probably constant monitoring.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm always out looking, and it's probably it's probably saying, God, give me a rest.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that with you actually.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: Looking at it all the time.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: They want some privacy.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh what's tougher?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: A dry season or a stubborn farmer?
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, look, dry seasons can be really tough, but I think our Aussie farmers are just inspirational.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: So um sorry.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just think farmers are wonderful.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're very optimistic.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're used to the variability of an Australian climate as well, and I just think they're wonderful, so I'd back an intelligent, determined farmer any day over a dry season.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: They're very clever, aren't they?
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: And they've got a lot to contend with.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I just I have so much admiration for our farmers.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: What would you rather give up first?
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Fertiliser or rain?
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or that's that's a good one.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um for me, definitely fertilizer.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think uh we we all need rain.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's our one of our um non-negotiables.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think fertilizer, it does need a little bit of nuance in how we change that, but if I was to have to give up one or the other, it would definitely be fertilizer.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Now talking pastures, who's the quiet achiever that no one gives enough credit to?
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: I've probably alluded to that earlier, but um the herb family, I think.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that's one that um has been given a a slightly less important role in pasture swords or modern pasture swords sometimes, um depending on depending on the the agronomist or the sea company, but I think the the herb family is uh just ticks along in the background and does a lot of key functional tasks that um sometimes we're not fully aware of and um adds a lot of value to a pasture mix.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And one last question.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's actually two last questions.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I'd have to say Australia.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: I I just love it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've got such a wonderful country, and from my perspective, I I don't think I'd live anywhere else.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: You love your job, don't you?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really a job for me, um, Darren.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: It is um I wouldn't do anything else.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's I'm I'm in my peak life right now.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh nice.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Jade, you're very clever, you're very passionate, and you're very generous with sharing your knowledge like right around the country, really, and and your time today.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate it, Jade.
• 45:05
  unknown: Your time.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: I've had a wonderful time, Darren.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and thank you very much.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's very kind of you today.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jade.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: A big thank you to Jade Killeran for sharing her knowledge and enthusiasm with us today.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: If you found this episode helpful, please share it with someone who loves talking pastures almost as much as Jade does.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: This episode is proudly brought to you by Kiva Catchment Landcare Group.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And remember, keep your hands dirty.