Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Ambition Addiction: When Success Becomes Your Downfall | Juliet Jacobs

Transcript

Ambition Addiction: When Success Becomes Your Downfall | Juliet Jacobs · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:00
I even was saying to myself, OK, well, I'm doing book, you know,
0:03
book bag drives. I'm doing this for the
0:05
community. I'm going to do that for the
0:07
community, but I'm still committing a crime, you know,
0:09
I'm still committing a crime and the justification and it just
0:13
and then you become that go to person, you know, families going
0:17
to you and it's a good feeling. So, you know, I know for me I
0:20
was getting all, you know, intoxicated with that you don't
0:24
like. While people are coming to me,
0:26
I'm helping people not only point them to resources, but I
0:29
can be helpful for eventually and in other ways.
0:31
It's like now you have to keep up that persona and then you do
0:36
more and then you do more. So there goes with compulsion.
0:40
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
0:43
Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
0:46
Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
0:49
nightmares that set yourself free.
0:52
We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:54
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
0:58
These stories can be inspiring, sometimes sad, there's some
1:02
humor, but hopefully you can come away with a nugget of
1:05
something that'll help you knock down some of the prisons you
1:08
built up in your own mind. All right, welcome back.
1:12
I'm your successor now, listeners, This is where you
1:14
come from. What happens when your worst
1:16
year becomes your reality? How do you adapt, survive,
1:18
overcome, set yourself free. And folks, don't forget, don't
1:21
forget to follow, subscribe, share this thing out, like it
1:25
up. Comment really helps the show
1:27
and I really, really appreciate it.
1:30
So who are we talking to today on Nightmare Success?
1:35
Well, today on Nightmare Success, we're joined by Juliet
1:37
Jacobs. We're going to explore what
1:41
happens when ambition turns into addiction.
1:44
She's the author of the new book Ambition Addiction.
1:49
She's a justice impacted survivor and a mental health
1:52
professional with over 30 years of experience.
1:55
She's lived it, she studied it, now helps others heal from it.
1:59
As a certified recovery coach, peer support specialist, and
2:02
anger management expert. This is a powerful conversation
2:06
about the emotional roots of addiction, the hidden dangers of
2:09
OverDrive, and how you can take your life back and heal.
2:14
So before we jump into that, I can't wait to talk about her
2:17
book. I, I was just talking about, I
2:18
just love the cover of her book and it came from an idea back in
2:21
her childhood on a Just Say No campaign.
2:25
You're spiraling out of control. Hey, I wanted to recognize our
2:29
show sponsor, Auto Plaza Direct. You know who likes spending a
2:32
couple of weekends walking car lots looking for a car?
2:35
Then you spend four or five hours at a dealership to buy a
2:37
car. It's kind of like a root canal
2:38
appointment. There's a better way to take
2:40
away all that pain and hassle getting a car.
2:42
It's called Auto Plaza Direct. They're your personal car
2:44
concierge. Just tell them the car you want,
2:47
what you can pay, and they'll go find that car for you.
2:49
They'll negotiate your best price.
2:51
They also offer you warranties and financing.
2:53
It's all full service. Go to autoplazadirect.com to get
2:57
started with your personal car concierge.
2:59
This new new hassle freeway the car buying experience you
3:01
deserve Auto Plaza Direct telling Brent from Nightmare
3:03
Success sent you folks. I want to share with you a
3:06
powerful and moving new book you won't want to miss.
3:08
My name is Saffron Voices silence stifled and taken away
3:13
by author Saffron Gustafson. This isn't just a story.
3:16
It's a journey through resilience, survival, and
3:18
reclaiming your voice after being silenced for far too long.
3:21
Saffron's story takes you inside.
3:22
The hidden struggles, the pain, and ultimately the triumph are
3:25
refusing to be defined by circumstances.
3:27
As Saffron was putting the finishing touches on her book,
3:30
The Prison, she had just been released from Federal Dublin.
3:33
FCI, was permanently closed because of sexual abuse of the
3:36
women prisoners. If you've ever wondered what it
3:38
takes to rise from the darkness of places, to find your truth
3:42
and to speak it boldly, this book will inspire you.
3:46
Pick up your copy of My Name is Saffron Today, available now on
3:49
Amazon or wherever books are sold.
3:52
Trust me, you'll be moved, challenged and changed by her
3:55
story. Hi, Juliet, how are you?
3:59
I'm good. How are you?
4:01
I'm great. I'm excited about your new book.
4:04
You just released it. What was it 2 weeks ago?
4:06
Yes, about yes, about two weeks ago now and now it's available.
4:11
It'll be available in a couple of days on paperback as well.
4:14
So right now it's in. That's fantastic, Yeah.
4:18
And you can go to go to Amazon, check it out.
4:21
And it's like I said, it's got a really cool cover.
4:25
And it's called ambition addiction.
4:29
And you've got a lot of, you know, work and behavioral
4:33
therapy for all this time. And it's, I'm, I'm really
4:36
interested to get in and talking to you about this, Julia,
4:39
because not too many people talk about ambition.
4:44
It can also be harmful because you know, ambitions always
4:47
talking about as a kid, you're, you're growing up, you do well,
4:50
you have ambition, you have goals, you have this, you have
4:53
that, but you tackle it from a different, a different angle.
4:57
Or what if it gets out of control?
5:00
What if you start spiraling with it?
5:01
It could be just like gambling addiction.
5:03
It could be like drugs. It could be like a lot of
5:06
different things that that were you actually lose control of
5:08
your life and it becomes harmful to you.
5:11
Before we do all that, Juliet, take us back a little bit.
5:14
Tell us where you from, where you grew up.
5:18
What was little Juliet doing in her life?
5:20
OK, so little Juliet, I grew up majority of my life, Stanford,
5:26
Connecticut. I was born in Saint Thomas,
5:29
Virgin Islands and I came here to Stanford, Connecticut.
5:34
I think I was about six or seven years old, Very, you know,
5:38
curious or what have you. You know, dad realized that he
5:42
wanted to go to the mainland. We call it back home, call it
5:45
the mainland, you know, being American territory and stuff.
5:49
And, you know, one thing was major in our culture, it's
5:55
success. Going to school, education, it's
5:58
a must. It's a must.
5:59
It's a must. There's no way around it.
6:01
And you know, that cultural being because it's also, even
6:05
though we're Americans by because of territory by
6:08
birthright or Americans, but we have that big Caribbean culture
6:13
that really impacts, you know, and that's what it is.
6:16
Because, you know, a lot of times some of our grandparents
6:20
or great grandparents didn't have the opportunities, if you
6:23
may, to go into higher education.
6:25
They were provided with primary education, they called it.
6:28
But then going into higher education is either you'd have
6:31
to leave the territory and go to the states.
6:35
So whenever you you know, family members going to the state,
6:38
you're going to be successful. That's just the golden thing.
6:42
It's almost like it gave you like this concept, like you'll
6:46
be walking through, you know, and picking up dollars and you
6:50
know, the gold, the golden roads or whatever.
6:53
It's all you know, and people don't really know the real the
6:57
reality of it you know of. Yeah, it's not just one yellow
7:00
brick road. Exactly right, you know, on the
7:03
way, the odds kind of thing. You know what I remember just
7:06
everyone being there. We had a whole party and
7:08
everything and, and sending off and I remember my aunt hugging
7:11
me and saying, you know, I'm going to see your name and
7:13
lights. I'm going to see this.
7:15
I'm going, you're going to be so 'cause you're so smart, you're
7:17
so this and and I'm like, I wanted to stay with them.
7:20
I really didn't want to go, you know, but and this whole thing
7:22
about names and lights, I wasn't into that.
7:25
I wanted to play. I wanted to, you know, so then I
7:28
get I get to Connecticut and then, you know, the culture kind
7:34
of changed a lot, you know, having to go to the American
7:39
schools and what have you. And, you know, my accent is
7:43
different from theirs. I speak English, but I'm
7:46
speaking with an accent. And at that time, they only knew
7:49
of Jamaica. They didn't know of the Virgin
7:51
Islands and most of the kids who didn't travel.
7:53
And it's like having. Juliet isn't that interesting,
7:57
though. Like when you, like, you didn't
7:59
see yourself as having an accent until you got put into a
8:03
different world. And I I it's funny because when
8:07
I was a kid, I grew up not very far away from Saint Louis, but
8:13
it was in the southern part of Missouri.
8:15
And so we had kind of, we talked different somebody, people call
8:21
it hillbilly. You know, we talked a little bit
8:23
fast, you know, a little bit slang.
8:25
And I didn't realize I had an accent until I went to this
8:29
basketball camp before I was getting ready to go my freshman
8:32
year in high school. And everybody that was at this
8:35
basketball camp was like, why, gosh, where are you from?
8:38
And it was the first time I ever thought, well, I didn't even
8:41
know I talked differently. Right, right.
8:43
I didn't even know that because everyone spoke like I did.
8:46
And you know what I'm accustomed to around me and to be put in a
8:49
different environment. You're just like what you know.
8:52
So some some slangs and some sayings they had I was not
8:55
familiar with at all. And it was just a whole culture
8:59
shock in more ways than one, you know, so.
9:02
Did you have, did you have any other family that were in this
9:06
area that you moved into or was it just Jacobson there you were
9:11
to take on the world? That's it.
9:12
That's where it was the the closest we had was family in New
9:17
York. OK, But my dad didn't want me to
9:20
go to this public schools there. So and he didn't particularly
9:25
care for the private schools and my other cousins were going to
9:27
there. So I, you know, Stanford was
9:31
better was a smaller town and you know, it's not the
9:34
metropolis that it is today. It was more, you know, we had a
9:37
lot of mom and pop stores back then, you know, and we didn't
9:41
even have a mall at the time that we moved there.
9:44
So once all of that, you know, so he thought that to be better.
9:48
He worked in New York, but he wanted us, you know, me and mom,
9:52
to be there and so. Growing up, was your dad who was
9:58
coming from Saint Thomas and mom were they considered to be a
10:02
success making the move and getting into their roles as.
10:06
As a matter of fact, I was looking for it today.
10:09
I wrote a poem and when I was in the ninth grade and it was
10:14
talking about, you know, my parents taught me success,
10:17
although they never had it themselves.
10:20
You know, they would tell me to go to school to learn because
10:23
one day this is how I will earn a living.
10:26
And so, you know, and my, I remember my English teacher
10:29
being so impressed with it, like, but that's what it was.
10:33
It was always about success. My dad was a construction
10:36
worker. And, you know, then I remember
10:39
when he became a foreman, you know, and he's talking, he's,
10:43
he's working with a bunch of these Italian guys and this
10:46
black guy from Stanford, I mean, I'm sorry, from the Virgin
10:50
Islands is now their boss. And he talks about, you know,
10:54
and I, I never experienced racism, discrimination.
10:58
And I heard him say, you know, these guys are just prejudice.
11:01
And I'm like, what is prejudice? What is, you know, so I'm young,
11:04
I'm like 8-9 years old. I'm like, what is that?
11:06
Because I didn't experience that.
11:08
So it was, it was a heck of a challenge.
11:10
And he's like, This is why I tell you, you must go to school.
11:13
You have to have a college education because you will not
11:16
be going through this like I am, you know, and my mom, you know,
11:19
she decided to go back to school as an adult because I remember
11:23
her even not even having a high school diploma.
11:28
My dad did, but my mom didn't. And so it was like school was
11:34
the first thing, you know, you, you, they talked about it, they
11:37
ate it, they slept it, they drunk it, it, it was always
11:41
about education and about the betterment.
11:43
And especially when we went to family functions, like I told
11:46
you, we had family close by in New York.
11:49
It was always about this pedigree thing.
11:51
Like they would say, oh, you know, her son is and you know,
11:54
cousin so and so son is is at MIT and this one went to Harvard
11:58
and see how smart this thing. You just put your mind and
12:01
things and it would just like, you see what I'm saying, Juliet?
12:03
You see, you see how their lives are, you know, and I'm just
12:07
like, wow, you know, it's it must I have to become educated.
12:12
So how did that Juliet? How did that affect you going
12:17
through the school? I mean, were you going?
12:19
Through school it, it was, it was difficult.
12:21
I, I always did well in school. I always liked learning, but I
12:26
didn't want to be beat down with it, you know, and then I started
12:29
doing this little rebellious thing, right?
12:32
You know, I worked after school, I went to school, you know, my
12:35
parents never had problems with me going to school with my
12:38
behavior or anything like that. I sometimes I'd be a little
12:40
smart ass and, you know, other than that, it was, you know, it
12:44
was nothing, you know, anything problematic.
12:47
But here's what happened in my senior year.
12:50
I really, really got tired and I'd moved out.
12:55
My dad and I had got into an argument that he locked the
12:58
door. He changed the locks, as a
12:59
matter of fact. And then I'm like, I'll show
13:02
him. So I went to go stay with a
13:04
family member of my then boyfriend.
13:07
OK, so I pushed back really, really hard and I ended up
13:13
becoming pregnant. I was pregnant and my, you know,
13:16
I finished my senior year, I graduated and everything.
13:20
And it's like, OK, where is college?
13:22
You know, so I'm still going to him.
13:24
I'm like, hey, here's the paperwork that he's not talking
13:27
to me. I said, but I I still have to go
13:29
to school. And he's like, no, you've made a
13:31
decision. You decided to have a child.
13:33
There's no college and, and I'm like, you know, I'm always
13:35
determined. So I'm like, OK, well, now I'm a
13:40
mother and a single mom now. And you know that that first
13:44
relationship did not work out. So I had to figure out my way,
13:49
you know. So after that, he started, you
13:52
know, my son was about one or two years old.
13:54
I can't remember the time, but he asked me to come back home,
13:57
you know, so we can help with you, you know, you and the child
14:02
and coming back home. You got to go to school, you
14:04
know. So I started off in a Community
14:06
College. I got married.
14:08
I met somebody there and I got married, moved out again.
14:13
And then let me see when I was married for like what, 15, maybe
14:17
12 years or so, things didn't work out, but I always pushed,
14:20
even though I was working. I'm a single mom now and I'm,
14:25
you know, with two children and I'm just like working and you
14:28
know, my parents are being in support and the same thing.
14:31
He's like, my dad is like still upset my mom.
14:33
She she would say things, but not to the way that my father
14:38
will show you that he's upset with you.
14:40
You know what I mean? Like and his silence.
14:42
And I used to find that so heartbreaking.
14:46
You know, I wouldn't talk to me. It would just hurt really bad.
14:50
And my ex-husband used to do the same thing.
14:53
And it was just something that went into that space.
14:56
Like if you're not talking to me, then I don't know what's
14:58
going on. And I kind of have to guess why
15:00
you're upset. So that really would have an
15:03
impact on me. So, as I said, you know,
15:06
deciding to, you know, go through that and I stayed in a
15:09
marriage way longer than I should have, but I didn't want
15:14
to disappoint look like another disappointment, you know, So
15:17
then that really drove me for education, you know, so no
15:22
matter what I did, I picked up a course here, I picked up a
15:24
course there. And then eventually, you know, I
15:27
was able to, you know, go to an accelerated program in
15:30
Springfield College where I got my bachelor's degree in about
15:34
two years because I had so much other credits throughout the
15:37
time. So I was, you know, elated.
15:41
So when I, I remember when I had my first master's degree and I
15:48
was at the graduation, my dad couldn't come, but I called him
15:51
and what's his name? He was Kennedy, but he was the
15:55
commencement. I'm thinking it was Ted.
15:58
I think it was Ted Kennedy. Senator Ted Kennedy.
16:01
Yes. So I remember my mom leaning to
16:04
me. So she's like, you know, this is
16:07
a really good school that you went to.
16:10
You know, Ted Kennedy is here and I'm like, so you so Juliet,
16:14
your school is not like, you know, like mediocre.
16:17
You know, Ted Kennedy showed up and I'm like, well, I thought it
16:20
was pretty good when I chose it like way back.
16:23
So she's like, so she is proud. And, you know, I called my dad
16:28
and and I said to him, you know, hey, you know, Ted Kennedy's
16:32
here this that, you know, I picked up where my mom left off
16:35
and and he's like, well, very good.
16:37
I'm proud of you. But had you not, you know, you
16:42
know, become such a young a mother at such a young age, he's
16:45
like, Jules, you would have been a doctor by now.
16:48
You would. And I'm just like, my mom is
16:51
like in the background, like just hang up the phone.
16:53
You know, he'll just. He'll just never.
16:55
He, he, he, he's just. Never enough, right?
17:00
So I'm curious Julia, with all the different things that you do
17:04
with education, what, what pulls you into the behavioral field
17:08
of, of therapy and that world of of treatment?
17:16
Well, I, you know, I wanted to understand people, you know, why
17:19
things were, why people did what they did, why didn't they do
17:23
things they should have and just really wanted to have an
17:26
understanding. I was also working with people
17:31
who had, who are intellectually disabled, you know, people.
17:35
So a lot of my work also helps out, you know, to make this,
17:40
this, this decision. So just wanting to know more and
17:45
even to know about myself, understand my parents a little
17:48
bit better, you know, because some things that my parents did
17:52
or didn't, it would be considered abusive in other
17:55
cultures. So it taught me a lot about
17:57
culture, culture, rigidity, cultural values, you know, So I
18:02
just wanted to dig into that a little more.
18:05
And you know, with that education, like I said, I've
18:07
always worked with something connected.
18:09
I worked with women, with domestic, you know, defense,
18:11
domestic violence population. I worked with even sexual
18:16
offenders, you know, I was a manager of a group, homosexual
18:19
offenders. But there's a back story.
18:21
There's always a back story and being able to look at it from
18:25
different perspectives and through different theories,
18:28
different lens is what this gave me.
18:30
And I was always interested in that.
18:31
So that's what pushed me towards that in that direction and you
18:35
know. So once you get out and you're
18:38
you're educated, what, what's your next step?
18:42
OK, so my next step was, you know, continue to grow in my
18:45
role. And like I said, I, I went to
18:50
Graduate School twice and I didn't hit it out at the park
18:52
the first time. I, I felt that I was, I was
18:59
always like in management positions, whether it was a
19:02
group home or it was a project working in the community or what
19:07
have you. But I wanted to really do the
19:10
inner work that was interested. You know, I wanted to do
19:14
therapy. And so then I embarked on that
19:17
and I, you know, saw this, you know, marriage and family
19:20
therapy program at Springfield College.
19:23
And so I applied. I said, why?
19:25
You know, you have to write all that stuff, the why you want to
19:28
and so forth. So it just gave me, I think it
19:31
will help me when I'm working with families because in some of
19:33
the other things that I worked with, you know, where I remember
19:37
I was working with a community that had, was there was a high
19:44
child removal rate in that community, in that little small
19:49
community. They had the highest child
19:51
removal rate in all the state of Connecticut.
19:54
And we were, you know, other providers.
19:57
You know, I was working for Catholic Charities then when I
19:59
was working on that project, and we would all come together and
20:02
want to know why instead of pulling the kids out from the
20:07
parents, what's the underlying issues, what's going on?
20:11
You know, is it economics? Is it lack of education?
20:16
Is it lack of resources? You know, so we were just like
20:19
looking at that and, you know, and when I would see some of the
20:22
parents, I know that there's a back story, there's some family
20:26
dynamics going on. And also working that project, I
20:30
was also the parent educator. So there was a, a program, a
20:35
curriculum that I had to learn and teach them, hey, about
20:37
parenting skills or what have you.
20:39
And I will see a lot of resistance from different
20:42
cultures. You know, you can't just come in
20:45
with one model and then with the expectation that it's going to
20:48
fit one. Size doesn't fit all.
20:50
Right, absolutely. So that's what really inspired
20:54
me to go further. So all this stuff, that's great,
20:59
you've got the masters, you go in, you're helping people.
21:01
How does a nightmare land on you?
21:04
So I go in and I, I decided I wanted to have a business.
21:10
I started off with a partner and things didn't work out with the
21:13
first business. And then I got with another
21:17
partner and I was always one that wanted to focus more on the
21:21
work itself. Whereas my partner, she was more
21:24
of a, you know, a business person.
21:28
I thought you know. Business, which usually is a
21:30
good partnership if somebody can find that.
21:33
Right. You know, and even though she
21:35
worked for the Department of Mental Health in that state, so
21:40
she had a lot of good connections.
21:42
And we, you know, we built a business together and then
21:46
things just went another direction.
21:49
So then it went into, you know, and I'm just like, OK, well, I'm
21:52
getting paid basically. And you know, what's going on?
21:56
I'm like, how's the money this way or that way?
21:58
And what you're doing here, you know, she spoke in terms that
22:02
sometimes I didn't understand, OK.
22:04
But what it did for me at that time, I felt like I'm helping
22:08
people and I'm financially secure now.
22:11
If you know anything about a single mother will have to pull
22:14
from here and pull from other resources.
22:16
You become very resourceful, you know, and have no hard to
22:19
stretch a budget. So I'm like, what, wait a
22:21
minute, I don't have to stretch a budget anymore so I can pay
22:25
everything and I still have more money left.
22:28
What, you know, So that for me as an adult, that was the first
22:32
time that I really, it felt like, oh, wow.
22:35
And it gave me like a false sense of, you know, security.
22:39
So although I was asking questions and I was scared at
22:44
first, I still went on because the benefit was.
22:47
Right, the comfort was there. Right, right.
22:50
You know, and then it really, you know, your moral compass,
22:55
right. It really gets like shaken like
22:59
of a better term. But you know, you take a little,
23:02
you do a little and you kind of like looking over your shoulder.
23:04
No one's seeing you. And then you just you justify it
23:08
in your mind and then you continue on, you know, because I
23:13
even was saying to myself, OK, well, I'm doing book, you know,
23:16
book bag drives. I'm doing this for the
23:18
community. I'm going to do that for the
23:20
community again. But I'm still committing a
23:21
crime. You know, I'm still committing a
23:24
crime and the justification and it just, and then you become
23:28
that go to person, you know, family's going to you and it's a
23:33
good feeling. So, you know, I know for me, I
23:35
was getting all, you know, intoxicated with that, you know,
23:39
like, wow, people are coming to me.
23:41
I'm helping people not only point them to resources, but I
23:44
can be helpful financially and in other ways.
23:47
You know, so it's like now you have to keep up that persona and
23:53
then you do more and then you do more.
23:56
So there goes the compulsion, you know, there it goes.
23:59
You start, you know, we first I was taught by another person how
24:03
to do this, and then this person was doing it.
24:06
At first I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.
24:08
I remember saying that, hey, we can go to prison for this, You
24:10
know, I'm scared, you know, I knew better.
24:13
And then it was. What was actually happening?
24:16
Like what? It was over.
24:18
It was overbilling. It was.
24:20
Overbilling. So it was in in health, in
24:23
health care, the health field that you're in there was over
24:26
billing for patients possibly that that did or weren't treated
24:32
or whatever the case might have been.
24:33
OK, right. So when this is going on,
24:37
Juliet, you kind of have this feeling.
24:38
You even say I could go to prison for this.
24:43
When how does it come down on you?
24:45
Does it just somebody knocks on your door and says, Juliet
24:49
Jacobs, we know we need to talk to you.
24:52
Is that how it happened or would?
24:54
Kind of like what happened my as I remember I mentioned I had a
24:59
partner prior to this and I noticed how this partner was
25:03
when money started coming in, she started getting crazy and I
25:06
just like in very like bossy and controlling.
25:10
So I backed away. I backed away from her.
25:13
I'm like severed all ties, get my name off of this and so
25:16
forth, so on. And I suspected she was because
25:19
I had no control over the banking, no control over the
25:22
bill. I had no control over that.
25:24
So I'm like, but I'm suspecting and I'm like, hey, you know what
25:28
out we had an argument one day and this was, you know, this was
25:33
it. So she had gotten investigated
25:36
and she ended up and in prison as well too.
25:40
OK, so when she got, you know, wherever there's smoke, there's
25:44
usually fire kind of thing. So being that my name was
25:47
associated with something else. So this is where.
25:50
They connected the dots. How long did all that last,
25:54
Juliet, from the time they knocked on your door and said,
25:56
hey, we've got this figured out. We need to talk to you to you're
26:00
looking at with attorneys and. Yeah.
26:05
So I want to say it had like maybe about all the way to about
26:11
a good five or six years, about six years or so.
26:16
That's a long time. Yeah, it is.
26:17
Yeah, it is to live under that cloud.
26:19
Yeah. You know, so, so they had, they
26:23
had asked me some questions When in 2011, No, 2012, I think it
26:29
was in 2013 when my former partner, they just came over.
26:33
Hey, you know, do you know this, this at the 3rd And we know that
26:36
you had been out of there. They they know everything you
26:38
know they do. By the time they knocked on your
26:40
door, they know. They know.
26:41
It all right. So then they came back to me in
26:46
2015 and then I surrendered in 2019.
26:51
So it took a while. Wow, it did.
26:55
So you were presented with all this and you're going through
27:02
this. What, what, how does this affect
27:03
your family and your mom and your dad and everybody who's in
27:06
this world of you being this person who has kind of been, you
27:10
know, the light shining on you is being and doing well and
27:14
ambitious and creating your own business.
27:17
And then this lands on you. And then how does it affect
27:22
everything around you? I never sat with my father to
27:27
this day to tell him about it. You know, never ever had that
27:32
conversation. But I know my dad, you know,
27:36
he'll ask around and so forth. And he says, you know, one day
27:40
he says to me, and whatever you do, just always know that
27:44
there's consequences. And sometimes, you know, you can
27:48
bring down the House of, you know, cards and you can pull it
27:51
down on yourself. Just know that.
27:54
And I said, OK, yeah, he knows he's a smart ass.
27:57
I know he knows, you know, but I wasn't willing to have that
27:59
conversation with him. He I'm a little on the stubborn
28:03
side as well, too. So I'm just not, I'm not doing
28:05
that until your forthcoming. I'm just not doing that.
28:07
I spoke to my mom about it and. Anyway, what was her reaction to
28:12
all that? Her reaction was like, what?
28:14
Didn't you have somebody in, you know, we that knew about your
28:19
billing? Didn't you get?
28:20
How did this happen? Because she's taking me out of
28:22
the equation. Yeah, she's taking me out of the
28:24
equation. So I have a cousin who does
28:26
medical billing. She lives all the way out in
28:28
Texas. She's like, no, I'm, I'm going
28:30
to call her right now because something went wrong.
28:33
No, like she was not willing to accept that I.
28:37
Yeah, she was. A yeah, absolutely denial.
28:40
And yeah. How old would your kids have
28:43
been at the time that this was all happening?
28:46
My kids were young adults at the time.
28:47
I had a son in college. They were all in their 20s at
28:52
the time when this was happening to me.
28:54
So. So it comes down, Juliet, and
29:02
you're given, you don't go to trial, you're given a plea.
29:08
What was what was the outcome of your plea bargain?
29:11
What was this sentencing? This sentence was a year and a
29:14
day. Right.
29:16
OK. And so you go off into this
29:20
world that you never thought you were going to be going into.
29:23
Absolutely. Because you're this kid that's
29:26
come from Saint Thomas and the families and you've done all the
29:30
education and you've got all the the masters and everything else
29:36
and you've created a business and then you're walking into
29:39
prison. I want to take a break there
29:42
because when we get back, I want to talk about how what your
29:45
mindset was going into a place you didn't think you were ever
29:48
going to go into. You know, we talk a lot.
29:50
About the rebuilding after incarceration on this show,
29:53
Finding a job, contributing to community, finding purpose.
29:56
But I recently came across a book that reframes the entire
29:58
conversation the way many haven't considered.
30:01
It's called Second Chance Economics by Nevin Shetty, and
30:04
it just debuted as a #1 new release on Amazon.
30:08
This isn't a book about criminal justice reform.
30:10
It's a book about economic potential.
30:13
Shetty starts with an overlooked reality.
30:15
There are 80 million Americans with a criminal record.
30:18
That's a massive, underutilized talent pool, and one whose
30:21
barriers to employment cost our economy a staggering 1.2
30:24
trillion a year. What I love about this book is
30:27
the approach Shetty uses data to show how second chance hiring
30:32
isn't just a social good, it's a competitive advantage.
30:34
It lowers turnover, fills labor gaps, and creates A virtuous
30:37
cycle of growth. Whether you're a business
30:39
leader, a policy maker, or someone who believes in
30:42
reframing the narrative around just as impacted individuals,
30:46
Second Chance Economics is a must read.
30:49
Pick up your copy today on Amazon.
30:50
So a lot of people don't like how they look and show up
30:53
online. Many individuals think there's
30:56
no hope when it comes to managing your reputation.
30:58
On Google, there's hope. It's called the Discoverability
31:00
company, and they can help you whether you're starting and
31:02
building a reputation from scratch or you're repairing
31:06
search results after a negative news story.
31:08
Discoverability can also help you how you're portrayed on
31:10
popular AI services like ChatGPT.
31:13
To learn more, go to and visit discoverability.co.
31:17
Itsnot.com, its.co listeners A Nightmare Success can take $100
31:22
off with coupon code Nightmare Success and Juliet Jacobs and me
31:28
are both attendees of the White Collar Support Group.
31:32
And the Nightmare Success Podcast is sponsored by the
31:35
White Collar Support Group, the world's first support group
31:38
devoted to people navigating the white collar criminal justice
31:41
system. I'm a member of the White Collar
31:43
Support Group and I can tell you this is a bunch of people who
31:45
help each other through the criminal justice journey for
31:48
free. Whether you're just starting
31:49
your journey or you've made it through to the other side, this
31:52
is great space for you. You can join us on Zoom Monday,
31:55
7:00 PM Eastern Time. For more information, go to
31:58
prisonist.org. It's prisonist.org.
32:01
OK, Juliet. So six years of this crazy
32:06
purgatory nightmare is now, now it's set.
32:10
You, you know that where you're going, you got a year and a day,
32:16
which is somewhere like used to be like that would be like 8
32:19
months or something. I always say one day in prison
32:23
is enough. But regardless of how long that
32:26
sentence is. But when you were walking in to
32:30
prison, Julia, what, What was going through your mind?
32:35
What was going through my mind is like, wow, I can't wait to
32:38
get to the other side of this, you know, And wow, I never
32:44
thought this would have happened, you know, even though
32:47
I knew there were consequences to this.
32:52
But some strange unknown reason, it doesn't.
32:57
Knowing that and what you do are two different things, right?
33:01
And while I'm here now, you know, I remember I was with a
33:06
friend of mine, a guy friend of mine, you know, ex-boyfriend.
33:10
And he, you know, he understood and he came all the way from
33:14
Connecticut and I said, I need somebody to take me to, you
33:20
know, to all this. And so he's like, and I was
33:23
really looking for his sister. She and I are still friends.
33:26
So he's like, I can take you. And I said, but I want somebody
33:28
that, you know, understands and he's been through it himself.
33:32
And also and he's like, he's like, look, you can tell my
33:35
story. You know, I've been through
33:37
stuff and, you know, wrong, wrongfully accused of murder.
33:40
And I overcame that. And I said, well, then I need
33:44
your strength and will you take me?
33:45
And he came down to, you know, spent a couple of days before we
33:48
drove out. And he's like, hold your head
33:50
up, hold your head, you know, he said, you know, you're strong
33:54
minded. You're going to get through
33:56
this. And I just let out a cry.
33:59
When I saw. You know, he says you're going
34:01
to yeah, you're going to get through this.
34:02
If you want, you can call me or what have you.
34:04
What have you? Because I hadn't seen him in
34:05
years. So I did that.
34:09
And I remember walking in, you know, he's sitting on that van.
34:12
It's like a bread box kind of car, you know, van.
34:16
And I'm like, wow, you know, I never forget.
34:19
It was a Friday. And I remember going through all
34:23
of that, you know, the search that never been searched a day
34:26
in my life, never even had handcuffs on, you know, so no
34:31
handcuffs ever to be in search. You know, I was just talking to
34:36
somebody about that this morning.
34:37
It's like, yes, you know, it could be very humiliating.
34:41
And I told people I don't want any visits.
34:45
I don't want anyone to visit me. I said, because every time you
34:49
go to a visit, you have to go through that same search.
34:52
And I just don't want any parts of it.
34:55
OK, so I had a very persistent cousin out in Virginia.
34:59
I didn't even tell her where I'm going because I know how she is.
35:02
You know, she's stubborn as hell.
35:04
And she was going to do what she wanted to do anyway, right?
35:07
So she wrote me, and I'm like, I didn't even put her on my list.
35:10
What the hell? You know, it's Andrea.
35:13
And I'm like, yes, Andrea, I'm talking about.
35:14
I'm like, what the Andrea, you know?
35:17
So even in the letter when I wrote her back, I said do not
35:20
under any circumstances come to visit me.
35:24
If you come, I'm going to deny the visit, OK.
35:27
But then COVID came, so kind of help me out a little bit.
35:33
You know, so, so you did you, you would have gone in before
35:38
COVID, right? And then COVID happened.
35:42
You didn't. COVID happened, Yeah.
35:47
In that time period, because you kind of figure out and get your
35:50
routines going in prison because there's nothing like anything in
35:55
routines. There's a prison routine because
35:57
you're not going anywhere and it becomes, you know, your world.
36:01
When COVID happened and it became so easy to just lock
36:04
everybody down. How did you work through that?
36:09
How was that? Right, you know, by that time I
36:12
had a little, you know, built some connections, you know, with
36:16
some other like minded people. There were other therapists
36:19
there. You know, when you go to federal
36:21
prison, you meet all walks of life.
36:23
I'm and I would think any prison, but I don't want to, you
36:26
know, I'm visit any other other if I'm other than a visitor, you
36:30
know, to another person. But anyway, long and short of
36:32
it, you find people that are like minded are planning what
36:36
they're going to do on their way out.
36:38
And there were two women that I really, really connected with.
36:43
And what how we got through the time is like we learn to accept
36:48
what it is you are here. You know, you can't live on the
36:54
outside anymore. You can't because you have no
36:56
control over any of that right now.
37:00
OK? So you have to let all of that
37:02
go. And I think that that was my
37:04
biggest struggle because I still wanted to check on my kids.
37:07
I still wanted things to go the way that I, you know, because
37:09
I'll tell you this, I like to say I'm recovering control
37:15
freak, OK? Because you know, and sometimes
37:19
I have relapses. So here's the thing, when I as a
37:24
single mom, you know, because you want the unit to function,
37:27
you know, accordingly, you want things to be safe or whatever.
37:29
So you want to control the environment as much as possible,
37:32
right? So then as you can be, you know,
37:34
you want the environment to be controlled, you then become
37:37
controlling. OK, so I have some control
37:40
issues that I had to let go there.
37:43
That was not easy because even though my children were young
37:48
adults, I still wanted to tell them what to do.
37:50
And I just, you know, I'm someone, you know, overheard a
37:55
conversation or something and just kind of told me like, yeah,
37:58
you know, people go on with their life.
38:01
People will find a way. Even though you were the ghost.
38:03
So she asked me a few questions. She's a little older than me.
38:06
She said you're the one that people normally goes to, right?
38:09
Well, they have to learn to go to themselves now.
38:12
There's nothing you can do. There's absolutely nothing you
38:16
can do about the outside. And I was like, oh wow, my
38:20
country days came back. I can't control outside.
38:23
So you have to learn how to, you know, not live through this.
38:27
You know, so it's very humbling. Yeah, it is.
38:30
It is. It is very humbling.
38:32
And it was not easy. I had to learn, like you said,
38:35
you you learned a routine and everything and you have to learn
38:39
what you need to do, what you have to do so you don't go
38:41
crazy. Like I saw some people like, you
38:44
know, like their heads were like in clouds because they were on
38:47
so many meds at the time. And I'm just like, wow, they
38:50
just, you know, want to go to life as in a fog.
38:55
I'm like, I don't want to be in the fog.
38:57
So I got a whole bunch of composition books, you know, I
39:00
bought from commissary and I would just write this.
39:03
I want to do this program. I want to do that.
39:05
I want to do this. I want to do that, you know.
39:07
And look, I still have one of my composition books from.
39:10
There they are. Yeah, OK.
39:12
So I'm like, wow, you know, I can't do this and I have to
39:16
learn to accept it is what it is.
39:18
This is where you are and you either can do the time or you
39:22
let the time do you. It's up to you.
39:23
You know, I had to have these conversations, you know, with
39:26
myself. So I didn't do the crocheting
39:30
thing. They they, they were saying
39:31
there's ways that other people do it.
39:33
They either you crochet or whatever you pray you crochet or
39:39
you're gay for this day, you know.
39:40
So it was a whole lot of like things that I saw there.
39:44
I'm like, oh really? But if that's what worked for
39:46
that, that's what works for them.
39:48
You know, I just had to learn to, you know, use my writing
39:52
skills. I'm like, let me just remember
39:55
that I'm a writer. Let me remember too, a lot of
39:57
things that I had gotten away from.
40:00
I got back to, you know, those skills because I had them.
40:05
They were there. I think that's interesting,
40:06
Juliet, that you say that because the episode I just
40:11
recently released with Jason made Piers.
40:16
He had he I guess you would say that he had ambition addiction
40:20
because he his true talent, his purpose was he was so great at
40:28
writing music and singing and he, you know, 10 years old.
40:30
He was like this child prodigy and they got into real estate
40:34
and all these different businesses things.
40:35
But he ends up in prison in front of a piano and the Chapel
40:42
with a spiral notebook and he's like, dear, here I am.
40:47
It found me again. And he writes 40 songs and he's
40:51
got a big album coming out April 10th.
40:53
But it it, it was him. And he said it's it's now I
40:56
have, you know, it haunted me down and he's so talented and he
41:01
and he didn't, he kind of pushed it away because he didn't think
41:04
that was where he was going to be able to make his mark, you
41:07
know, money wise. And what you're saying is, is
41:12
that you you have to, you know, figure out you got back to
41:17
things that you were have gotten away from.
41:20
You're a good writer. And and you just started doing
41:23
that and being forced into a situation like that sometimes
41:26
that forces people to what where they truly are, you know, their
41:32
true being. Yeah, I remember I was getting
41:35
ready to leave and, you know, so I'm packing up things, I'm
41:39
giving away stuff or what have you.
41:41
And I'd ask someone to, hey, can you make me a travel bag or
41:45
whatever You, you know, you do a little things, you know, for
41:47
each other and there and what have you.
41:49
And, you know, the return, I was like, oh, you must be out of
41:52
your mind that the person was asking for.
41:54
And I'm like, OK, so I went to commissary and I put in for, you
41:59
know, for some yarn or what have you.
42:02
And I made it back. No pattern, no nothing.
42:04
I just on memory, you know, I learned how to 1 summer I spent
42:10
with a cousin in, in Saint Croix, you know, for the summer.
42:13
And I remember I was 10 at the time and I was too young.
42:16
It was for 14 and up. But every time she was being
42:20
dropped off. So it's, it was like a home
42:23
economic. She learned how they learned how
42:24
to sew, they learned how to cook, they learned how to
42:26
crochet. So I was always the tag along
42:30
and I remember there was one lady there, Miss Monet and she,
42:33
you know, you know, tagged behind her and she want to put
42:36
me to sit. So she taught me how to crochet
42:39
and I remember making a little change purse out of crochet and
42:43
it just kept my attention or what have you.
42:45
So I went and and when they saw the outcome of it, they were
42:49
like, so you waited this long for us to know that?
42:52
You did crochet? Right.
42:54
I was able to crochet. I'm like, wow, you know, And
42:57
they're like, you didn't use any pattern or anything, you know, I
42:59
saw what other people were doing and it just kind of came back to
43:02
me. And since then, let me just tell
43:04
you, about two years ago, I did a whole fashion show with
43:07
crochet. Wow, yes.
43:09
Wow, that's crazy. I'm like, yeah.
43:11
And I did. I, I forgotten that I could do
43:13
that, you know? So, my daughter, so were you.
43:17
So were you thinking as you were writing all this stuff down in
43:22
prison and doing these things getting out because the re entry
43:26
is really tough. I mean, we we talk about it all
43:29
the time. White collar support group how
43:31
that you know that anticipation getting out and then reality
43:34
hits and then you have to figure it out and it never goes away.
43:38
You just have to figure it out. Were you thinking writing a
43:41
book? Were you thinking like what were
43:43
what were your thoughts on my? Thoughts were a couple.
43:45
Months from getting out. What were you thinking?
43:48
I was thinking about writing books, actually, you know, and
43:51
I'd written a book and I even had it illustrated.
43:54
I didn't publish it yet, but it was all around foster kit
43:57
because I also worked in that department and I also foster the
44:01
child. And I had that all about, you
44:05
know, how social workers should be able to have some tools to
44:08
work with when they're removing a child.
44:11
You know, a child doesn't know what a reunification is or what
44:13
have you. And so I wrote a book with this,
44:16
with a gentle approach on that, you know, and I didn't do
44:19
anything because then life catches you because I have
44:22
restitution to pay. I have to work.
44:23
I have to this, you know, and I got to wait again, you know.
44:29
So as time went on, like right now, I recently lost the job
44:36
because there is the OIG and I'm on that exclusion list for the
44:42
OIG. So like that and the job in
44:44
December. So during that, this time I
44:48
pushed this book. I'm like, I got to do this, you
44:50
know, like, you know, I got to do it, you know, So it's calling
44:55
me. So sometimes things are taken
44:56
away from you, I think, so you can do what you're supposed to
44:59
be doing. So you focus.
45:00
Yeah. Well, let's talk about the book
45:03
because I think it's a really interesting, fascinating take on
45:08
because you and I were talking before we got on about, you
45:11
know, gambling. That's a behavior, you know,
45:14
it's not something you put in your mouth or you drink.
45:17
It's it's a behavior gambling. And you have tackled and written
45:22
a book and I've read bits and pieces of it before We before we
45:29
were going to have this interview.
45:30
And I think it's really interesting to take this, take
45:34
the take that you have on this, because we actually have a whole
45:38
society built on being ambitious, being successful.
45:44
And like you said, for some people, it becomes an identity.
45:47
Well, they can come to me. It's there's, there's power in
45:49
it, there's recognition, there's awards, there's rewards.
45:56
How did you how did you even come to this idea to write a
46:03
whole book about it? Like, because it's, there's so
46:06
many different ways to look at it and there's so many case
46:10
studies of what you can go back to.
46:12
How did you tackle it? So what I saw is, like I said, I
46:16
sat down, you know, to myself, and I thought this over and over
46:19
again, you know, when I was mentioning about how, oh, no,
46:22
this is a crime. No, I'm not doing, you know,
46:24
Yeah. You were, you were rationalizing
46:27
that. Yeah, right, right, right.
46:30
And then after a while, you know, you compromise that, you
46:34
know, I had a standard, you know, I knew right from wrong.
46:38
I still know right from wrong. But but you talk yourself into
46:42
some things, you know, and like I was saying about the comfort
46:45
that it brought, the false sense of stability, the false sense of
46:48
security, you know, it felt good, right?
46:52
OK, so then you do it again. This is why do we do things?
46:55
We do things because we want to feel good, right?
46:57
Most of the time. So we're not doing things
46:58
because they're full of pain or whatever.
47:00
We do things because the outcome.
47:03
That pain and pleasure. Yes, right, right.
47:06
So, and ambition, I just wanted to say that it's not so much
47:09
about ambition being bad itself, it's the compulsion, you know,
47:14
of the, of the vision, you know. Well, and, and here's the thing
47:17
that I think because you and I were Sean Mueller was on this
47:21
show and he was a very, very successful hedge fund manager.
47:25
Everybody wanted to be in his hedge fund.
47:27
It was exclusive, you know, and he had, you know, big names and
47:30
celebrities and different people, but he took a loss and
47:34
he was, he was known as the guy that didn't lose.
47:37
And he began to rationalize a way to make it to where it
47:43
doesn't appear that he loses, even though he had this loss, he
47:46
couldn't lose. And and that I think that plays
47:49
into what your book is, is that you that's when it becomes a
47:53
compulsion because winning and losing, for the most part, it
47:57
happens. Nobody really has 100% winning
48:01
percentage. The DOJ is pretty good about a
48:06
97. But on the, on the, on the real
48:09
world stage of people life is especially with entrepreneurs,
48:17
there's failures. You learn from failures, you
48:20
learn from that and then you learn that you're not, you
48:22
shouldn't do that part again and you can improve upon it.
48:26
But if you accept that you can't lose or that only success is
48:31
what's going to be acceptable, then I think that's where,
48:35
Julia, it falls right into that basket that you're talking
48:39
about. It's a compulsion then.
48:42
Right. And I remember, you know what he
48:45
was saying in that he was using his own funds.
48:49
So he doesn't look like he has, you know, he lost.
48:53
You know, you, you have to keep up the image that you yourself
48:57
have built, OK. And the image that now people
49:01
are depending on you and people because you're saying this guy
49:04
doesn't lose or whatever you then he cannot lose because you
49:06
said this guy doesn't lose. And we live in a culture it's
49:09
all about success, right? But they don't tell you about
49:12
the nightmare part of the success.
49:13
You see, that's the stuff that you're at home trying to finagle
49:16
numbers and all this other stuff.
49:18
Because failure, I used to hear people say failure is not an
49:22
option, you know, and I'm like, no one really opts to fail,
49:26
right? But there's but any results,
49:29
part of growth, you know, and having to accept that, you know,
49:34
OK, you're not going to hit the ball out the park each and every
49:38
time. And I think sometimes we get
49:42
caught up in that, that what it looks.
49:44
I think that, and I think too, Juliet, that people don't even
49:49
today, though, I mean, we live in a culture where Instagram and
49:53
social media you're, you're seeing the best dinner they went
49:56
to the best vacation, they went to the best party they went to.
49:59
And you know, that's what you see, but that's not real.
50:03
And I think that that's also a a really big part of how we fall
50:08
into this is that you, you continue and you know it.
50:11
But if you read the books of like people who have really made
50:15
it, they will walk you through chapters and chapters and
50:18
chapters of how they failed before they got to where they,
50:21
they, they got to. I mean, you know, Sam Walton,
50:24
more or less he, he was, he was trying to, he was growing so
50:27
fast. He almost was forced to go
50:30
public because he had to eliminate his credit card debt
50:34
and everything else that was going on in his, his world.
50:36
And then, you know, his world explodes because he had such
50:39
good systems. But that doesn't mean that he
50:43
didn't have a number of different failures along the way
50:45
with that. And I think that's the other
50:47
part is, is that people don't see that people have both.
50:52
They just see the one side. It's like watching Instagram all
50:55
day. Everybody's winning.
50:58
Everybody's having the best life and the best of everything.
51:02
And so I think that's what gets back to you, Juliet of, of
51:06
digging down deep. OK, Why would you rationalize?
51:10
Why would you accept the moral compass to be tilted a little
51:14
bit? It's almost like you say, well,
51:16
I have to to be able to keep up and stay where I'm at or to keep
51:20
up with the Joneses over here because I want that.
51:23
Right, right, you know, and then, but then you don't see
51:26
that the the sweat that you're going through, you know, because
51:29
I was like, Oh my gosh, are they coming today?
51:31
Or, you know, like, you know, that fear, the fear of, you
51:35
know, and I think it was, what was her name?
51:38
I'm Iola Van Zandt. She says the fear is false
51:41
evidence appearing real. Yes.
51:45
Yeah. So a lot of us function in fear
51:49
because we have this whole thing of success, right?
51:53
And we don't want people to stop associating us with success.
51:58
And as I was telling you before, you know, when we go to family
52:02
functions and this one went to this college, this one, I
52:05
remember my cousin came to visit with her young daughter who just
52:10
graduated high school. And she was like, OK, well, you
52:14
see how she's living. You see, This is why it's so
52:16
important for her for you to go to school and you see what kind
52:21
of car she's driving, you see what's up wish how she lives.
52:24
OK, So it's very important. And I remember hearing that same
52:28
message when I was even younger than her, when she was so young
52:33
adult, the same thing. And I'm like, wow, you know, So
52:36
again, family traditions, family expectations, cultural this and
52:40
that, the other, you know, and also living here in America, you
52:43
know, that's why we came. That's what we were told.
52:48
Everyone who left the island. You came here to be successful.
52:52
To be a success. You had to be.
52:54
The Land of the Plenty. Yeah.
52:59
So the as far as you're, let's see, Julia, you have three kids,
53:06
is that correct? Right.
53:08
Three children. What?
53:10
What kind of what kind of did they go into education?
53:14
Where? Where did they fall into the
53:16
realm? Of both of my sons did not
53:19
continue my my youngest didn't continue education, but he works
53:23
for, I think a authorized dealer for AT&T.
53:27
And my other son, my oldest, he's a truck driver.
53:29
My daughter is in the same field as I and she's at the.
53:33
Same field as you. So she followed mom's footsteps.
53:37
Interesting. And she too, she had a battle
53:40
with addiction herself, you know, substance use.
53:42
And so she really resonates like with this to see like, wow,
53:47
she's a mom. I would have never thought about
53:48
this, you know, to see it this way.
53:51
And it's just I said, well, wrote this because I don't want
53:53
other people to fall in the same pitfalls that I did, you know,
53:57
and to see it for what it is and not am I going to say that
54:01
everyone that's ambitious is addicted to their ambition?
54:03
No, you know, I'm not going to say ambition is a bad thing.
54:07
But you know, this is a thing, you know, that the expectations
54:11
and the fear that people will not see you in that light
54:14
anymore. You know, So what I've learned
54:16
to do is give people their things back.
54:18
I tell them give people their things back because sometimes
54:21
we're chasing something because somebody else put it out there
54:23
for us to chase. It was probably not even yours.
54:27
Right. No SO.
54:28
But I think also it's, it's with what you're doing, how you're
54:32
doing it, it means so much more when you know that the person
54:37
that's trying to help you is actually walked in those
54:38
footsteps. And I, I've, I think your book
54:43
is going to do really well just because it's, it's interesting
54:47
from a lot of different angles to look at how ambition could
54:51
actually spiral and become a compulsion or an addiction.
54:56
So I, I applaud you for bringing that to the surface because it's
55:00
something that I'm not sure that we talk.
55:03
About a lot. All right, you know, I remember
55:07
there was Aceo and he would kid around and whenever there's
55:11
someone new, the first thing he would ask, are you a thief or an
55:14
addict? A thief or an addict?
55:22
Yeah, those are two ways that you're going to get it here.
55:25
So which one are you? Well, I just got to tell you
55:30
what the culture looks like. You know what I mean?
55:32
That's for sure, for sure. Julia, you, you've lived a lot
55:40
of different layers of, of, of a journey here.
55:44
What? What do you think's your biggest
55:45
take away? The biggest take away is getting
55:49
to your true essence of who you are because I was living up to
55:53
standards, you know, and sometimes we can live down to
55:57
expectations, like living up to standards, you know, going to
56:00
school, which is not a bad thing.
56:02
I'm not saying that, you know, but there was a lot of pressure
56:04
there, you know, and then living down to expectations.
56:08
I will say that with the partner, when you brought this,
56:12
you know, to me, I had an expectation and then I reduced
56:16
my expectations, you know, lack of a better charm.
56:19
You see where I'm going with that.
56:20
So, yeah, so my own expectations.
56:23
And I'm like, you know, that's a lot of things.
56:25
I was kicking myself for a lot, right?
56:27
And I had to let that go. Like I, you knew better, you
56:30
know, And here's another thing. My prosecutor, when I was
56:36
talking to them at the round table and he said to me, you
56:40
know, you really care about people.
56:42
You really, you know, you went into this for the right, all the
56:45
right reasons, all the good intentions and maybe you should,
56:48
you know, talk to someone else about why you ended up here.
56:51
He said another thing. I don't understand.
56:53
How did you allow somebody that you are smarter than to do this
56:57
to you? And the floodgates, you know, a
57:01
tears just came down. I'm like, wow, wow, you know?
57:06
The other thing, Juliet, that I know you do, because I talked to
57:10
a lot of different people that they talked to Juliet and and
57:13
people feel very comfortable in this, you know, space that we're
57:17
in. You you do a lot to help people
57:22
that are struggling, and I think it helps you know of your
57:26
background. You've had 30 years of
57:27
experience, but you've actually had to hit hit the re entry
57:30
world yourself, both going in, coming out.
57:33
And I think that's really nice that you are, you know, stepping
57:37
into a lot of different situations that the only way I
57:40
know about it is I I run into people that said, I've talked to
57:44
Julia. She really helped me out so
57:46
well. It's it's nice that to see that
57:51
somebody goes through a nightmare and doesn't get so
57:55
hardened that you don't see the way that you can help others.
58:00
And you've just kind of opened up that path to be able to do
58:03
that. And it, you know, it leads also
58:04
to the book that you've written. Well, thank you.
58:08
I didn't know they were saying that about me.
58:10
OK. But I, you know, whatever, you
58:12
know, whenever somebody calls, I I try my best to, you know,
58:16
these things are relatable, right?
58:19
And I can connect to that. And sometimes people just need
58:22
someone to listen to them. Somebody needs to, yeah, to
58:24
listen to it and hear, and they don't.
58:26
And they don't have anybody, and they're on an island.
58:28
And that one conversation you can have for them not to think
58:31
they're alone and that that person can share experiences
58:33
back to them that they're not the only one that's experienced
58:36
that can change, change somebody's life.
58:40
So it's it's a big deal. It is a big deal.
58:42
Talking about gratitude. I'd like to give a shout out to
58:46
Homestead Financial. Let's me use this podcast room
58:49
with all the fancy lights and cameras.
58:51
If you got home mortgage needs out there.
58:53
Greg Aftiev is your guy talking about books.
58:57
Let's talk about the ambition addiction again.
59:01
Go, go get that. And if you're there, why not go
59:06
ahead and get my book too? It's called Nightmare.
59:08
Success, Loyalty, betrayal, life behind bars, adapting, and
59:11
finally breaking free. And if you got time, leave me a
59:15
review on Apple. I love reading those.
59:18
They're great. They help the show, too.
59:19
You want to know what I'm doing? Go to brentcassie.com.
59:24
And I want to spell it wrong. I spell it with ATY, not a DY as
59:28
I used to say to my people as I was writing my emails back and
59:32
forth from level where. Stay strong.
59:33
I'll do the same, Juliet. Keep on keeping on I, I think.
59:39
Well, thank you. I've seen great things for you
59:42
to just keep moving in the path that you're in because you have
59:46
30 years of experience of helping people and now you're
59:48
putting that to writing and books, and I think it's just
59:51
going to be a great path for you.
59:54
Well, thank you very much and thanks for having me.
59:56
Nightmare success in and out.