Latest / UK Column Radio / China is neither totalitarian nor utopian

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China is neither totalitarian nor utopian · UK Column Radio

0:38
A good opening question is why is this such a difficult nut to
0:43
crack? Well, I think there are many
0:46
reasons, but most of all it's, it's China is culturally
0:51
distant. It's geographically and
0:53
culturally distant from most of the Western, especially Anglo
0:57
English speaking world, right. You know from where you are, you
1:01
are, you are. Even though South Africa is part
1:04
of the BRICS, we're still a continent apart.
1:07
And you know, forget about America.
1:09
It's like this whole Pacific Ocean.
1:12
And a lot of people, there's just a lot of general ignorance
1:15
about China. And because of that, I think to
1:18
fill in the blank, it's easy for propaganda to take take its
1:22
place, to take place of like real information.
1:25
A lot of people, they will have 4 very strong opinions about
1:29
China. Even though they may have never
1:31
been to China or they don't read Chinese.
1:34
So they, they receive a lot of so-called, you know, receive
1:38
wisdoms from their media or from, you know, quote UN quote
1:43
alternative news channel they trust, which might not always be
1:48
the, you know, most objective and impartial.
1:52
That's what why we're here, right?
1:54
Because I'm, I'm trying to provide some Chinese perspective
1:57
as a person who was born in China, you know, back in 1976
2:03
after one month after Mao died. So I grew up in China.
2:07
As good old days. Yeah, like good old good old
2:09
days. Like I I grew up in China as the
2:11
first post Cultural Revolution. Chinese, Yeah.
2:15
I can tell you all about the good old days.
2:17
And so I, I have, I have my perspective.
2:20
I, I grew up in China in the 1980s.
2:22
I have a very happy childhood. You know, I, This is why I've
2:26
always have very fond memories of China.
2:29
And I, I, I, you know, I've been visiting, visiting China on and
2:32
off. Last time I was there, it was
2:34
this year, in fact, in, in April, April and early May.
2:39
So, and every time I, I go there, it's actually like a
2:43
visiting a different place because the, the pace of change
2:48
in China happened so rapidly. I remember the the the former
2:53
Czech president, what's his name, Pavel Havel, he said China
2:58
changed so fast for us, changes too fast for us to be
3:02
astonished. And I think that's exactly it,
3:05
because a lot of the people, they may have heard from someone
3:09
who been to China maybe in the 1990s or in the early 2000, but
3:15
that China is gone. That's that China doesn't exist
3:18
anymore. That's.
3:19
Like because it's it's. China had changed so fast, it
3:23
might as well be like a generation ago, right?
3:26
Like my, my little cousin who were more than 20 years apart
3:31
and her, the world she grew up in in China is completely
3:35
different world from the one I grew up in.
3:37
And, and she is actually the, the zoomer population of China
3:42
or the late millennials in China.
3:44
They are the first generation in China that grew up in with
3:49
abundance with like. They can take abundance for
3:52
granted. When I grew up in China, let me
3:55
tell you, I I had to live with ration papers.
3:58
I live in an age with rations where you need ration paper for
4:02
everything, for rice, for sugar, for cooking oil.
4:06
And my, my, my, my auntie would send me to at that time.
4:11
You can't just go to a supermarket to get rice, you go
4:14
to government. Government approved rice station
4:17
to get rice with your ration papers and I I, I get most of
4:22
the ration in the family because that was a growing teenager, so
4:25
actually get the most allotment of rice.
4:28
And I will be the one who tasked to go to the government rice
4:31
station to haul back like, you know, 20 kilos of rice back
4:35
home. Yeah, of course, I back then
4:37
there's also no car. So I I did it all.
4:40
Like on my back and walking up and down the mountains.
4:45
Back in the days, yeah. No, I'm not.
4:48
Kidding. I'm not kidding.
4:49
I'm not kidding about up and down the mountains, by the way,
4:51
because I live in, yeah, I live in Chongqing.
4:54
Chongqing, for people who don't know, it's a very mountainous
4:57
city. The whole city is built on top
4:59
of the mountains. So there's a quite great
5:01
variation of elevation within the city.
5:04
So like the, the Rice Nation is actually like, it's like I have
5:09
to climb to go to the rice station and come back down.
5:14
So I I was not kidding about going up the mountains to get
5:17
rice. Yeah, call just before we go any
5:20
further because you know, we have to bring this up.
5:23
You and I are obviously both funded by the CCP and we, we are
5:29
we are government shells. So everything that we say is, of
5:33
course, Chinese propaganda. Yes, I'm, I'm still waiting for
5:36
my checks to clear from Xi Jinping.
5:39
I told him to put put in the mail last time, but you know,
5:44
I'm still waiting for that to clear.
5:46
Yeah. Also, I deliberately said CCP
5:49
because we know that that is the, that's the dog whistle.
5:52
If someone says CCP we we already know that we have to
5:56
look at them with the, with the, with the, with the, with an evil
5:59
eye. Right, it's true.
6:01
I mean the official English translation is Communist Party
6:05
of China, so CPC. I mean in Chinese it doesn't
6:09
really matter but I think in English they every time they
6:14
mention CCP it's like. CCP is going to take over the
6:18
world. CCP is sabotaging your
6:20
government. CCP is listening to you.
6:23
But you know what? That's the point.
6:25
That's the point called when the the term CCP originates, I think
6:30
out of the West. Not If someone says CPC, you
6:34
know that they probably know something about China, right?
6:38
Correct. That's fair.
6:40
Yeah. So anyway, yeah, I, I have a
6:42
Direct Line to Xi Jinping, right?
6:44
I get my, that's where I get my instructions, they told me.
6:47
To go to Germs Show this week, you're going to you're going to
6:51
receive your. Or else you're going to be shot.
6:54
Yes, yes. But that's the other thing about
6:56
trying to that's the other thing about trying to debunk myths
6:59
like this. So I'm fascinated by by China.
7:02
As somebody who is an African, the whole world fascinates me
7:06
because we are so behind everything, right?
7:10
And for the longest time called I believed all the nonsense
7:15
about China and, and it's only in recent years we are decided.
7:20
I wanted to challenge my own understanding what I had been
7:24
fed. And it's almost like it's
7:28
completely inverted. It's easy.
7:32
It's easy to to believe because, you know, otherwise a lot of
7:39
people just don't have any information about China.
7:42
So you kind of whoever fills that blank sheet is going to,
7:46
you know that. And usually that's the
7:49
mainstream legacy media or some quote, UN quote alternative
7:54
media that turns out to be founded by like NEDUSAID or, you
7:58
know, all these three letter agencies.
8:00
And, and those, those, those are ones that actually doing the
8:05
most numbers on, on place like YouTube, because they're also
8:10
kind of tell people what they want to hear.
8:12
Because especially as China start to rise and China's grow
8:16
in importance in the world now there's a lot of copium that's
8:21
been produced about China, especially in the West.
8:24
You know, like they, they don't want to, you know, they, they
8:28
don't want the, the automatic is almost automatic rejection to
8:33
reject anything positive about China.
8:36
People kind of put a like a negative spin on it.
8:38
There must be something kind of like there's there's there's
8:44
must be some dark insidious reason behind the rise of China
8:50
and there must be like some bad, potentially ominous impact of
8:56
rise of China. And I think it's also serves to
8:59
distract from the political realities at home, particularly
9:03
in the West. I mean, especially in USI work.
9:06
That's that's a place where I live for almost 30 years.
9:09
And and I think for most Americans living in the US, it's
9:13
obvious to them the place is dysfunctional.
9:16
I mean, we have a freaking TV reality TV show.
9:21
Host as a president and then, and then.
9:26
But what they don't want you to? See, is that OK, that China is
9:32
doing something differently, you know, rather than plowing
9:36
trillions of dollars into funding wars around the world
9:40
that you can actually invest in your own infrastructure and
9:44
education and propel the country forward?
9:47
They don't want you to think about that.
9:49
You know, instead they, they put out the information to convince
9:52
you, yes, yes, United States might be bad, yes, yes, Europe
9:56
might be dysfunctional, but China is much, much worse, much,
9:59
much darker. Do not look to China as an
10:01
alternative. Don't do it.
10:03
You know, it's, it's bad. It's it's, it's worse, in fact.
10:05
So I think that that's the purpose of those propaganda.
10:09
And This is why I highly encourage people to actually go
10:13
travel to China, you know, to, to, to let your lying eyes
10:17
convince you, you know what, what is reality?
10:20
I mean you. You.
10:22
You, you kind of travel to the periphery of China.
10:25
Hong Kong is part of China now. It's still a little bit
10:28
different from mainland China, but at least you got there.
10:30
You know, you, you, you, you have, you have seen.
10:32
You have seen what the yeast is like.
10:35
Unlike most people. But Carl, you know that
10:40
someone's going to ask. Yes, but why then did you leave
10:42
China? Why are you living in the US?
10:45
OK, that's, that's a good question.
10:46
That's a fair question. Well, my dad traveled to United
10:49
States in 1985. He was the first post Cultural
10:53
Revolution generation of Chinese students that was sent abroad.
10:58
So back in the 1980s. Then Xiaoping said, OK, we, we
11:01
got to send Chinese students are brought to learn because like
11:06
China has fallen behind in in science and in development.
11:11
So we need to go to to send students to the Western
11:14
countries to learn advanced technology, learn the, the, the
11:18
advanced management methods, you know, whatever.
11:23
But he and he also said, I understand most of them will
11:26
never come back just because in the 1980s China was very poor
11:30
and obviously you can get much more paying jobs in the West.
11:34
You say it's okay. It's okay that most of them
11:36
don't come back. Even if 20% of them do come
11:39
back, that would be a net plus for us.
11:42
You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's better than 0.
11:45
And so my dad did go to United States to study for his PhD and
11:50
they brought me to US in 1989. So 1989 was the, the year of the
11:57
Tiananmen Square protest. So my dad did not agree with the
12:01
government, how the government handled the Tiananmen Square
12:03
protest. So they decide not to come back
12:05
to China. And then they brought me to
12:07
United States. So that's, that's how I, I ended
12:10
up in US as a teenager and like I was 13 years old.
12:14
And, and one thing that start to change, though, is by, I think
12:22
most of them, my dad's Chinese classmates, they also stay in
12:25
the US after they graduated, they went to the, you know, they
12:28
got green card, got citizenship, this they joined the US
12:32
corporate world. But after about 10 or 20 years,
12:35
many of them kind of hit like. Hit the the glass.
12:39
Ceiling or or or bamboo ceiling because they find themselves can
12:43
no longer rise to the top to the top management for various
12:47
reasons. And then then this coincided
12:51
around 2000, early 2000 to 2010 when Chinese economy start
12:56
taking off. So many, the most ambitious one
12:59
do return to China because they realize in China the sky is the
13:03
limit. They can, they can be CE OS,
13:05
they can be founder of companies.
13:08
You know, there's not, none of that restriction they face in
13:12
the West. You know, like example, I I
13:14
think for people might be familiar with is the founder of
13:19
TSMC Taiwan Semiconductors, Morris Chen.
13:22
I mean, this, this he's he went to Taiwan by very similar
13:25
circumstances. So, so Morris Chen was born in
13:27
China then he when he was a little kid, you know, he, he
13:31
immigrated to the United States because the communists won on
13:35
mainland and he was, you know, he was a very important top
13:41
management in, in Texas Instrument, which is a big tech
13:44
company in United States. But after a while, he realized
13:49
he wants a top job. He wants the CEO.
13:51
But after, afterwards, even though after all everything he
13:56
did for Texas Instrument, he realized they're not going to
13:59
give him that top job, you know, And so, you know, whether
14:02
because he's Chinese or whatever, but he wasn't going to
14:06
get that top job. And at that time, the Taiwan
14:08
government approached him and said, hey, we're going to give
14:11
you tons of money. We're going to give you a lot of
14:13
tax incentives for you to open the semiconductor business in
14:19
Taiwan. You know, using your experience
14:22
in the industry and your connections in USI think we can
14:25
make a success. So that's what he did.
14:27
So now Taiwan Semiconductors is like the one of the most
14:31
valuable firm in the world because they produce the most
14:34
advanced semiconductor chips that everybody needs.
14:37
But this this same kind of process was playing out with
14:40
mainland China as well. A lot of the Chinese talent went
14:43
back to China, China because that's where the opportunity is
14:47
that that's where they can, you know, they, they, they can get
14:51
higher achievement. And this is kind of the
14:55
fundamental understanding the West about China stealing
14:58
technology, quote, UN quote. I mean, I'm pretty sure
15:01
industrial espionage does happen.
15:03
I mean, that that happened everywhere.
15:04
But the real process of knowledge transfer is these
15:08
Chinese students who were sent out by Deng Xiaoping back in the
15:11
80s, even though Deng Xiaoping knew most of them will not
15:14
return within his lifetime, but many of them did after 2220 tens
15:21
when China economy start taking off and they brought back the
15:24
knowledge and you know, the experience again, working the
15:28
Western companies and that, that's, that's kind of the main,
15:31
main driver for, for kind of the, the, the, the, the, the
15:35
technology transfer that did take place between China and
15:40
West. And I don't know, I, I, I feel
15:43
like I went off on tangent because we're, I'm worried I'm
15:45
you're just going everywhere. But but it doesn't.
15:47
Matter No your your your espionage comment is actually
15:50
very good because the Chinese hyper what what do you call them
15:56
hyper fast rail railways trains that they are currently building
16:02
yeah yeah apparently a lot of that tech comes from Japan now I
16:06
don't really have a. Problem and Germany.
16:08
Yeah, I don't have a problem with this because it's better
16:10
for people. Well, well that that technology
16:15
is not stolen. That was bought.
16:18
It was when so back in 2000 O 8, when China started to this
16:24
massive banishing of their high speed rail project, they invited
16:27
different Western companies to bid for the project.
16:30
So including Simon's from Germany, the including Japan,
16:34
including Bombardier from Canada.
16:37
And the condition is, OK, we're going to give you this huge
16:41
contract. But our condition is you must
16:45
produce in China. You, you, you must, we, we
16:50
might, you have must have given like license production in China
16:54
and you must do technology transfer.
16:56
So this is all about the table like as a, as a condition for
17:00
market access to China, you got to do technology transfer.
17:04
And and all these company, they kind of weigh the pro and cons,
17:09
but they couldn't say no to shit tons of money.
17:11
They say OK, yeah, well, I mean, not only transfer that, that,
17:15
that, that you know that that will take time, you know that
17:17
the money money we can get it now.
17:19
And So what happened is China was able to absorb this
17:22
different technology from Japan, from Germany, and after 5-10
17:27
years they were able to indigenize the technology.
17:30
And now China is exporting high speed rail across the world.
17:34
But from the very beginning was very above the table.
17:38
It was like any foreign firms who come to China, you have to
17:42
do now technology transfer is part of the deal as a condition
17:47
for giving you the market access.
17:49
Now China was able to demand that because China was big
17:52
market and a big giant pool of cheap labor.
17:56
That's the main draw for a lot of Western multinationals to do
18:01
business in China age but. They're all slaves, Call.
18:03
Yeah, it's all slaves. Of course, of course, of course.
18:07
I mean the that is that kind of. Mean kind of persist to today,
18:15
right? I mean, China, it got to where
18:18
they are because they're all slave labor.
18:19
I remember reading a tweet from Scott Adams, the creator of
18:24
Dilbert comic, right? I, I, I love Dilbert.
18:26
I used to read Dilbert. But he said she a decent guy.
18:30
He, I mean, he's, he's a well educated American, right?
18:33
He's you can't say he's ignorant.
18:35
He's a well educated like, like you can't consider sort of
18:39
public intellectual in in United United States.
18:42
But he said, you know, so the oh, oh, when, when everybody
18:47
move on to robotics on automation, you know, China is
18:51
going to be screwed because they're going to be screwed out
18:53
of their advantage in cheap labor.
18:55
Now, this is just ignorance about China because if you
18:59
actually look at the statistics, China employed more industrial
19:03
robots today than the rest of the world combined.
19:07
And and they. Actually, you know their.
19:09
Factories, they have like lights off factories like entirely
19:13
automated assembly lines at putting together EVs, putting
19:17
together cars. So, so China is well prepared
19:21
for, for automation. It's much more prepared in
19:24
automation than say United States because US don't have
19:27
manufacturing anymore. China they're actually applying
19:30
robotic AI and and robotics in their advanced manufacturing.
19:34
This is why China is presenting a bigger threat now to a lot of
19:39
their Western competitors. Is This is why you can get more
19:42
China threat articles in the West because of that, you know,
19:47
they talk about Chinese over capacity made in China 2025 how
19:52
China is going to like, you know, take over the world
19:55
because it's the government subsidized everything.
19:58
It's unfair competition. But look if Chinese government.
20:02
Trump's going to save the world. Tariffs call.
20:06
Tariffs are going to save everybody.
20:13
I think, I think only, only only some segment Americans believe
20:18
that at this point, but you know, because there's, it's such
20:23
low information. I mean, I don't, I can't speak
20:27
about South Africa, but I, I went through the, the American
20:31
public education system. I can tell you the American
20:35
public education system is crap. They they, they like, like like.
20:41
Mark Twin said you know if you are, if you well, he said about
20:46
newspaper, he said, you know, if you if you don't, if you don't
20:49
read newspapers, you are ignorant.
20:51
If you if you read newspapers, then you're misinformed and.
20:56
But this is how American education works.
20:59
If you don't go to school, you're not educated, but if you
21:02
go to school, you're mis educated.
21:04
So, so you're there's no win situation.
21:07
And, and but we have. This is why how we got Trump in
21:11
the office. This in the 1st place, but the
21:14
The thing is there's a lot of projection when the West talk
21:19
about China, they're they're talking about China as a country
21:22
per SE. They're talking about China more
21:24
as a foil as like a projection of their worst fears, right.
21:29
And like when a lot of time when especially United States, when
21:33
they talk about China, it's almost 100%, you know,
21:37
projection, you know, when they talk about China as a, as a, as
21:42
a dystopian surveillance state, for example, right?
21:45
And with the social credit system?
21:48
With the social credit system, right and, and, but in reality,
21:53
Trump just authorized the private company Palantir to
21:57
access all the US government records.
21:59
Like look first of all as as a person who hold US passport at
22:04
this moment. I don't care if China get my
22:07
data because China don't have jurisdiction over me.
22:10
Chinese government can't do anything to me.
22:12
But I've been more concerned when the NSA read my e-mail and
22:17
and volunteer have all my data because they can't get me, you
22:21
know, they I have to pay taxes to Uncle Sam.
22:23
They can. They can get me for one reason
22:25
or another and. And and and and and and also the
22:29
social credit system is not a thing in China.
22:31
It's it's a myth. There's there's no such thing as
22:34
social credit system. I mean, you might.
22:36
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on.
22:37
Sorry, Carl, let me just let me jump in there because this
22:40
happens all the time. I have, I have these discussions
22:43
constantly and this is the response I get.
22:47
Well, you don't live in China. How would you know?
22:49
OK, fine. So let me speak to somebody
22:50
who's in China. No, you can't speak to somebody
22:53
who's in China because they're in China.
22:54
And so therefore the government, the government is watching them.
23:00
Right, right. It's like that.
23:03
This is the thing when I talk about about China to people and
23:07
and people will insist that no, no, no, Carl, you don't, you
23:10
don't know what's really going on in China.
23:12
We we, we know more about China than you because we have the
23:16
Freedom of Information, because we have a free.
23:19
Internet. Yeah, yeah.
23:21
I'm like, look, look, I I lived in US for 30 years.
23:25
I can access the same information as you do, except I
23:28
actually grew up in China and traveled to China speaks the
23:31
language. Right.
23:32
And so it's because sometimes I think what it is, is people are
23:38
being conditioned to think about China in a certain way.
23:42
If you challenge their long held belief, it's like you're
23:46
challenging their identity, right?
23:48
I mean like for, for you know, people who are open minded, such
23:53
as yourself, Sir, you know you, you know, you sometimes you,
23:56
you, you receive information, you are able to absorb it, you
23:59
know, even challenge your pre-existing biases.
24:02
But for most people, I think, you know, when they find their,
24:06
their long held belief get challenged, they get very
24:09
defensive because it's almost like a challenge to their, you
24:12
know, whole world system. Suddenly their whole whole
24:14
belief system get challenged. It's their challenge to our
24:17
identity. So they get very, very defensive
24:19
about that. And and so again, I just say
24:23
just travel to China. People like just go, it's very
24:26
easy now for people in the West, especially if you're in the
24:29
European Union, you know, many of the EU country, you get like
24:33
30 days visa free visit to China, you know, but
24:38
unfortunately for. The BRICS.
24:40
Condition though. On condition though, there's an
24:44
armed Chinese soldier who will be with you 24 hours a day and
24:48
he will only take you to places that are designated.
24:53
That's correct. And if you go?
24:54
Off the course they will shoot you and they will build your
24:57
family for the bullets and for the next 3.
25:00
Generations. And so, you know, for, for, for
25:07
the people you know, who, who could afford to travel to China,
25:09
who you know, can get visa very easily.
25:12
I, I do highly recommend you go check it out for yourself to see
25:15
if it's really like how they portray it in the, you know, you
25:19
know, mainstream media, you know, go ahead.
25:22
When you when you and I were in Hong Kong last year, I saw
25:26
absolutely no social credit system.
25:30
Right. Well, Hong Kong is a little bit
25:32
different germs because Hong Kong function under what's
25:36
so-called 1 country 2 system. And that's, that means when,
25:41
when Hong Kong was handed over to China in 1997, returned to
25:46
China in 1997 from being a British colony, one of the
25:51
condition was that that that China promised was that they
25:55
will keep Hong Kong system as is.
25:58
So, you know, whatever Hong Kong operated under, you know, under
26:02
British, they wouldn't they will leave that alone, you know, so,
26:05
so in effect, you will just be the British and colonial
26:10
governors that's leaving the the other part of Hong Kong.
26:14
They will they will leave it alone.
26:15
So, so Hong Kong do it is a little bit different in the, in
26:18
the fact that like many Chinese citizens from mainland to travel
26:22
to Hong Kong, they actually need to apply for a visa.
26:26
They they actually need to apply for a travel permit.
26:29
And and then they have, once you're in Hong Kong, there's no
26:33
great Firewall. You know, you can access
26:35
Internet, whatever free. So, so, so there's some
26:38
difference. You know, obviously China, they
26:40
do have censorship. They do have the great firewall,
26:44
but I think. I mean, it's not utopia, that's
26:46
the point. Yeah, yeah.
26:47
It's just it's. Like people need to real.
26:51
Country. Exactly exactly you have.
26:54
It's not official, it's not totalitarian, it's not some sort
26:57
of sci-fi dystopia, but it's also not utopia.
27:02
Exactly. You if you go to China, talk to
27:04
the normal Chinese people, you'll find plenty of Chinese
27:07
people bitching about the government, just like you would
27:09
in South Africa or United States.
27:12
That's because that's what people around the world do.
27:15
They will bitch about their government and, and, but, but
27:18
you know, after that, you know. They're not going to get
27:20
arrested. You know, people think, oh, you
27:22
know, they're going to get thrown into gulags.
27:25
Or or like this is going to be in labor.
27:27
Those are the squares on the on the cameras that follow you.
27:30
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Apparently that's everywhere in
27:33
China. The Skynet, the Skynet, right?
27:36
The yes. And and so I OK, so one thing,
27:41
there are a lot of cameras in China that that's for sure.
27:44
I mean, this I when I traveled to China, I was surprised
27:47
because coming from the USI was actually surprised by the
27:50
prevalence of cameras. And I did ask about it like my
27:53
cousin who you know, who lived there And for her, her biggest
27:58
complaint about the camera is like, like he, she gets a lot
28:02
more, she gets a lot more traffic tickets now because the
28:06
cameras will catch her speeding. And that's her, her biggest
28:11
complaint. But I guess like in, in China,
28:13
they have a different relationship with technology as
28:17
people do in the West, because, you know, a lot of people think
28:21
certain camera surveillance, they think Black Mirror, they
28:24
think like dystopia. And, and, and I think rightly
28:28
so, because our government do a lot of shit.
28:31
No U.S. government, I know for sure, I don't know about South
28:34
South Africa, but I know U.S. government do a lot of shit with
28:37
surveillance. You know that, that that
28:39
happened. We, we only start to know about
28:41
it because Snowden, because the Snowden leaks.
28:44
And now, now they're completely open about it when they say, oh,
28:47
we're going to hand over all your data, government data to
28:50
Palantir. It's private companies.
28:51
So they're going to, and Palantir is the same company
28:55
that work with the US Pentagon, right?
28:56
They they also do things like how to provide targeting.
29:00
Information on the battlefield, they're the same one who is
29:03
going to isolate who is going to like identify dangerous element
29:09
in in the society, right. Like that, that's more scary to
29:12
me personally, just because I hold US passport, whereas go
29:18
ahead, yeah. In South Africa we do.
29:19
In South Africa we do have a few cameras, but they're all stolen.
29:27
And the ones that are still standing on the side of the
29:29
street, they've got bullet holes in them, so we're all good.
29:34
But, but I'll tell you one. Thing in China it's very safe.
29:38
I mean you can walk in the street at at night in big
29:42
cities. Women can walk out late at night
29:45
in big cities, little children play outside after dark.
29:50
It's just a compared to most cities in Europe.
29:54
America, I'm not even going to compare to South Africa.
29:57
I know it's bad over there. So compared to most other places
30:01
in the world, China is very safe.
30:04
Listen, I often joke with people.
30:05
They say to me, yeah, but China's a communist.
30:08
Hello. Listen, whatever China's doing,
30:12
please bring it to South Africa because that'll certainly
30:15
enhance whatever, it'll enhance our country.
30:20
So listen, if it's communism, please bring it.
30:24
And I mean, but that call, that's one of the things that I
30:26
realized over the last few years is that you can't apply one word
30:31
as a descriptor for an entire country or entire nation.
30:35
The idea of communism or capitalism or any ISM is largely
30:41
empty because these things are so nuanced.
30:43
And you can't, you can't just say, well, this works in
30:48
America, so therefore it will work in China.
30:50
You you're dealing with different cultures and different
30:53
different histories. And when you talk about isms,
30:56
you know, different people have different ideas.
30:59
You know, like in in America, people think like Joe Biden is
31:03
a. Communist, right?
31:05
There are people who think Joe Biden or or AOC's are communist.
31:09
So so you know, it's kind of hard sometimes it's hard to
31:12
hard. You know, it's hard.
31:14
You don't even know where to argue.
31:16
So, but just I, that's why just go, go, go to China, see for
31:19
itself how people live. I mean, I think it's undeniable
31:23
people are living much better life in China now than say 40
31:28
years ago when I was born. I mean, I can, I can tell you
31:31
all about the time I I had to go get ration papers to buy
31:36
anything and, and, and, but, but it's, it's, it's just a fact
31:42
that that people are living better.
31:43
You know, people say, oh, what? It's because because they're,
31:47
they're exploiting slave laborers.
31:49
This is the Chinese miracle is built on exploitation.
31:53
But look, it's the fact that everybody in China is doing well
31:58
and doing better. Like when, when 90% of Chinese
32:04
own homes, I, I saw a statistic reported from 2017, 70% of
32:09
Chinese millennials own their own homes, 70%.
32:14
And, and that was like what, five years ago?
32:16
No, no, no more than five years ago, 2017.
32:18
Now it's, it's eight years ago. No, I, I did my math incorrect.
32:24
Yeah, it's eight years ago. It's eight years ago.
32:27
And, and that that means today that that number is probably
32:30
even higher because not like now even the, the young, young,
32:35
young, young, youngest millennials are already in the
32:37
in their 30s, right late 20s and so.
32:41
It's. That's not the.
32:42
Case. I know that's not the case in in
32:44
the West. You know a lot of people.
32:46
Yeah, that's also, that's also another mental barrier.
32:49
So I'll keep interrupting you, but I hope you don't mind.
32:51
But that's also another mental block that that I find so many
32:54
people have they go, well, how does a communist country have
32:57
such a preference for private property?
33:00
But it it is like that. You know, you know, I will tell
33:04
you something. I was I was shocked when I find
33:08
about eminent domain laws in United States.
33:12
You know when in the in the two early 2000 I was talking with
33:16
when I first started working in USI was talking by his
33:18
colleagues. I was like what I thought this
33:20
is a land of free. How can you just claim?
33:23
How can the government just claim because they need it?
33:26
They can take away your property there.
33:27
Well that's eminent domains. Well, in China, you they have
33:31
what, those so-called nail houses?
33:33
So you sometimes you have like a highway and some how you have to
33:38
split off because there's a big house in the middle because,
33:41
because the owner refused to move because it maybe they were
33:44
waiting for higher compensation. And, and when the negotiate
33:48
failed, the developer to just decide, OK, screw it, we're just
33:51
going to build around you. And it's very common.
33:55
There's they even have a developer turn for you in China,
33:57
they call nail houses These, these, these people that refused
34:01
to move. So, so, so you can have like
34:03
like a farmhouse that's in the middle of the huge.
34:06
Mall parking lot because the the farmers didn't want to move so
34:11
so now now he got a huge parking lot in his front yard and and
34:15
also another thing people don't realize, you know, especially
34:18
people in the West Chinese. People don't pay property tax
34:22
once they bought the house, They, they're, they don't have
34:24
to pay annual property tax to the government, you know, so,
34:28
so, so they, they, they own that house till they die, you know,
34:31
but but people say, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, you don't really own
34:34
the house. You, because you are, you know,
34:37
you only have the rights for 75 years.
34:40
Well, technically it's true, but what actually happened is when
34:44
you sell that house to somebody else, it's 75 years again, that,
34:50
that, that, that the clock it gets, it gets reset.
34:53
And, and also you, you can pass it to your children.
34:56
And in the, in the most cases, it just, you know, like that's
35:01
not even a thing that they're not going to.
35:05
Because actually we don't know because we haven't run against
35:08
the clock yet to 75 years to see actually people getting their
35:12
property taken away. But so far what we have seen is
35:16
if. You own a house and you just try
35:18
to sell it. The owner.
35:20
The new owner. Get their 75 years right.
35:24
I mean, so, so technically you can sell your children for a
35:28
buck. They, they have it for another
35:31
75 years. So that's another issue.
35:34
And you know, they don't pay property tax.
35:36
So even if they lose their job, you know, they're not going to
35:39
lose their home. They they, they're not.
35:42
Going to get yeah, that's that's.
35:44
Important. But I think something that that
35:47
I'm learning more and more and more call is that you have to
35:54
choose your battles. So if you want to be a political
35:57
cartoonist like I am and you want to make a career out of
36:01
criticizing the government, then living in China might not be the
36:04
best option. OK, If I'm an activist and I and
36:09
I want to do a street protest every month, China might not be
36:13
where I want to be for that. For example, during COVID,
36:19
living in South Africa was pretty great because our
36:21
government is highly inept and very useless and they weren't
36:25
able to effectively lock us down and and mandate things.
36:29
Now, I know in China they were a lot more efficient at that, and
36:32
in Canada and in other countries.
36:34
Are you telling me? Are you telling me South Africa
36:37
is a libertarian paradise? Is that what you're telling?
36:41
Me maybe even, maybe even more an anarchist paradise because
36:44
there is a look. Like I said, it depends on it
36:47
depends on what you want. If you want a sense of freedom,
36:52
then you kind of require a more chaotic society, like like many
36:57
African countries, right? But it comes at a cost.
37:00
You have very broken infrastructure.
37:02
Trains are unsafe, public transport actually is unsafe.
37:05
My wife can't really walk around on her own at night.
37:08
So it depends on what it is that you're wanting ultimately.
37:12
That's true. That's true.
37:13
There's always a trade off, right?
37:14
I mean pros and cons and I think the fact that speaks for itself.
37:19
There's like hundreds of millions of Chinese who have
37:23
traveled abroad, but most of them return, you know, many of
37:28
them travel abroad for, for travelling, for studying, but
37:31
many of them do return to China. So, so that, that, that means
37:35
they, they, they apparently find it acceptable or, or, or or
37:39
better to, to stay in China. Another thing is like people
37:43
say, OK, but, but China is still very poor, you know, in terms of
37:46
nominal dollar terms compared to US.
37:49
You know there's still compared to low income to the income
37:53
level to United States. Well, that is true in nominal
37:56
dollar term, but the the money goes.
37:59
But South Africa? South Africa.
38:02
But but but money goes a long way in China.
38:05
There is a power purchase parity.
38:08
You know, like you, you can get This is why people develop the
38:12
the Big Mac index, right? Could see how much big index Big
38:16
Mac cost in each country and how much they make.
38:18
But in in China, the fact is people are on average Chinese
38:23
holds, they save like 34% of their income.
38:27
So Chinese household saving, it's like some it's insane.
38:35
It's something like $22 trillion.
38:38
It's it's huge compared to like household savings, say United
38:41
States, because these people somehow are able to save quite a
38:45
lot. This is why China is a creditor
38:47
nation. It's it's loaning money
38:49
everywhere as opposed to a debtor nation like United
38:52
States, which is $37 trillion in debt.
38:56
So, so you can say, yeah, China is poor, but somehow these
39:00
people are able to save and they're able to own homes and
39:04
they're able to afford to travel abroad, send their children to
39:08
study abroad. I think they do OK.
39:13
You didn't quite finish your thought earlier about the social
39:18
credit system, though, in China. It's not a thing.
39:21
There's not much to talk about because it's not a thing
39:24
because, because, because the assumption is right.
39:29
If the, if the camera caught you, you know, maybe spitting on
39:32
the street or something and then you're going to be blacklisted
39:36
from bank loans or something. No that it doesn't work that
39:39
way. It, there's no national data
39:42
system in China for that kind of to, to, to, to, you know, to, to
39:49
build a social criticism, you're going to need a national
39:51
database, right? To, to, to monitor everyone and
39:54
to, to log that in. There's no national database in
39:57
China for that kind of thing. But there are areas times like
40:01
for example, there was a recent viral event of a women who who
40:06
took somebody's seat on the train.
40:09
Like she doesn't have because in China on the train there's
40:13
different classes. You can buy either seat seating
40:16
tickets, you can buy sleep sleeping tickets where you get
40:20
beds, or you can buy standing only tickets.
40:23
So this woman apparently she has standing only tickets, but she
40:25
decided to sit in someone else's seat.
40:28
And when that someone who came to claim the seat, she refused
40:31
to give it up. And even when the conductor
40:34
tried to intercede, she refused to give up the seat.
40:39
So in that case, she might be get blacklisted by the train
40:43
company. I mean, but it's not like there
40:46
will be a national database. She will be like blocked on bank
40:49
loans or anything else. She will just be blacklisted by
40:52
the train company. But but that's that's
40:54
understandable that that happens anywhere.
41:00
I was we were talking about the cameras and I was reminded of
41:05
that. I think it was ABBC article from
41:07
a few months ago where they're talking about China sending a
41:11
rocket into space, but the picture was a surveillance
41:15
camera on a surveillance camera on the street.
41:20
Did you see that? Yeah, yeah.
41:22
I mean, it's just ridiculous. It's just ridiculous.
41:26
Is there somehow implying there's a Chinese surveillance
41:28
camera on the moon or something? I mean, first of all, but I
41:33
mean, nobody's even on the moon right now.
41:35
OK, let's let me remind people nobody is on the moon at this.
41:40
Point and and even I don't think I don't think there's there
41:46
there was American NASA program Artemis that was going to go
41:50
quote UN quote go back to the moon.
41:52
But I don't think that's going to that's even going to happen
41:55
with the way NASA is. But but you know what actually,
42:00
so in couple years, the only space station is going to be
42:04
Chinese when the Internet, because the International Space
42:07
Station is due to retire in couple years.
42:10
Well, it's supposed to due to retire.
42:12
We don't know if they're actually able to retire it.
42:14
But if that happens, the only space station right you're going
42:18
to be staying up there is going to be Chinese.
42:20
And it will be whoever the Chinese decide to invite over.
42:24
And Americans don't, don't get to go because not because
42:28
Chinese won't invite them over, but because there's a law in, in
42:32
U.S. government. the US Congress passed a law, the Wolf Wolf Act
42:36
or something, that prohibits NASA from cooperating with with
42:40
China on space. So This is why China had to
42:43
create their own space station in the 1st place because they
42:46
refused China to join the ISS International Space Station.
42:50
And yeah, yeah, so, well, they do.
42:56
They do. Have cameras.
42:56
They do have cameras on space station.
42:59
They do have cameras. China is coming up in the world
43:04
as a very powerful economy, and the American empire doesn't like
43:09
this. Well, I, I think that that's, I
43:12
mean, Marco Rubio of all people acknowledged wearing a multi
43:16
polar world now and then. You have, you have, Joseph.
43:20
Borrell, you know, the, the garden guy, the, the, the, the
43:23
garden and the jungle guy basically declaring, yes, the,
43:27
the, the, the what age of Western dominance is over.
43:30
And I think we, we're gonna, we're, we're kind of at the last
43:34
stage of the dollar hegemony right now.
43:36
This is why. But do you think?
43:37
Sorry, do you, but do you think Trump is going to welcome multi
43:43
polarity or do you think he's trying to slow it down?
43:46
No, no, I mean like Trump. Trump just labeled BRICS as an
43:50
anti American alliance, right? I mean the only thing that.
43:53
Led to that outburst is because of Brazilian President Lula
43:57
during the BRICS summit said OK, we we need to have another alter
44:02
alternatively trading currency. He didn't even explicitly
44:05
mention U.S. dollar. He just says we need a new
44:08
trading currency, otherwise we're going to end the 20th 1st
44:12
century like the way we started the 20th century.
44:15
That's actually pretty stark warning because, you know, we
44:18
started 20th century with two World War wars.
44:21
And and because of that remark, Trump wanted to slap 50% tariff
44:27
on Brazil and 10% tariff on all BRICS countries because he said,
44:32
oh, that's a anti American alliance.
44:35
They want to he he what he said, he said they wanted to de
44:39
standardize the US dollar, right.
44:42
And but he's already slapping everybody with tariff.
44:47
Like what? What more can he do?
44:49
And the more he slapped tariff people, more people going to
44:52
move away from the dollar. Go ahead.
44:54
Yeah, but the counter argument is that he's playing 5D chess is
44:57
that by slapping on tariffs, he's he's ultimately
45:00
strengthening China and other countries.
45:03
Oh, he is. He's definitely, but I don't
45:05
think that was intended. I don't think that was intended.
45:09
But you know, I, like I said, Trump is my president for
45:13
accelerationism. He's a he's a president for
45:16
accelerationism, for US empire, imperial decline.
45:21
Make China great again. Make China great again, I mean.
45:24
He is. He's a peacemaker germs.
45:26
I mean, he's actually making upbringing all the countries
45:29
coming together now, now, now he just slapped after he slapped
45:32
but tariff on India. Now the Indian Prime Minister
45:35
Modi is going to go to China. Putin is going to go to China.
45:38
So, so, so Trump is a great peacemaker of Eurasia.
45:41
You know he give that guy a Nobel.
45:43
Peace Prize already you know he deserves it.
45:47
The American Israeli connection is very fascinating.
45:52
That is certainly the opposite of peacemaking, and China seems
45:56
to have a very neutral position. Or does it?
45:59
Well, yeah, I mean, so China used to have closer ties with
46:05
Israel because Israel in the 80s and 90s function as the sort of
46:09
back door, a back channel for China to access Western defense
46:13
technology because. There's there's no.
46:15
Wall between US and Israel, right?
46:17
So whatever is US goodies, Israel is going to get it.
46:21
And then because China couldn't get it directly from US, so they
46:25
go through the back channel, which is Israel.
46:27
This is how a lot of the Western tech, especially American
46:31
military technology flow to China is through Israel.
46:34
Because Israel, they, they will sell to anybody who, who offer
46:37
money and, and, but that chat, that door has closed in 2000 to
46:43
20 tens because Americans actually told Israelis, OK, you
46:46
got to stop that. You got to, you got to stop
46:48
selling military technology to China.
46:51
And so that's one rare instance where US actually told Israel
46:56
what to do. So so is United States, they do
46:59
have option to reign in Israel if they really want it, right.
47:03
It's just they chose not to. And and and and and and in other
47:08
aspect, Israel and US function as almost like the same animal.
47:12
And for so for for Chinas perspective, now China have to
47:17
balance out its relationship with other neighboring countries
47:21
in the Middle East, like like Saudi Arabia, Iran, you know,
47:26
China is friendly with both Saudi and Iran.
47:29
That's how China was able to broker the Saudi Iran peace deal
47:33
for so so China's relationship with Israel actually, I think
47:38
take a hit after October 7th because you know, that's just
47:42
it's just not not cool to be seen to stand with Israel
47:46
anymore unless you are in Washington.
47:49
You are you're in the US Congress, but your, your your
47:51
political career depending on it.
47:53
And so, yeah, I mean, I think what US is doing, you know,
48:00
including its relationship with Israel, what US is doing is
48:03
lighting fires around all over the world.
48:06
So that makes United States seems this land of calm, like
48:11
those Oasis of calm among the world, light on fire.
48:15
So all the money, all the US dollars that's been storing
48:19
elsewhere, like parking Gulf countries, for example, that
48:25
have no choice but to flow back to United States in foreign
48:29
stock market bonds or real estate market.
48:32
This is why Trump travelled to the Gulf country recently,
48:36
right? And like, because he want their
48:38
money. I mean, it's, it's obvious he
48:39
want them to invest in United States.
48:42
And, and the way to do that is to, to start a war in, in the
48:47
region to convince them, OK, your, your money is not safe.
48:51
Better put in the US bonds, U.S. stock market.
48:55
You'll, you'll get better returns and you'll be safe.
48:58
I think that's what's going on. I was just in the UAE two weeks
49:03
ago and the amount of Chinese cars that I saw there is
49:09
phenomenal and and not it's not this cheap junk that might have
49:16
been the case 20 years ago. We're talking high end vehicles
49:20
and those are now arriving in South Africa car.
49:23
I can tell you I've already been test driving a few Chinese cars.
49:26
I think my next car is going to be Chinese.
49:27
I've I've got no more time for, for European cars that are now
49:31
just focusing on, on, on electric all the time.
49:35
I'm we don't, we've got riding blackouts.
49:37
How are we going to charge our cars?
49:43
So, so, so at least the Chinese vehicles are still bringing out
49:46
diesel, you know, and hybrids, which are also great.
49:49
Yeah. And great quality.
49:51
That's the point. Yeah, I mean that that's a lot
49:55
of the Americans don't even realize that because Biden put
49:59
100% on on, on Chinese EVs and, and, and so there's no, no, no,
50:04
no, no Chinese car that's sold in United States right now.
50:07
Like I, I, I bought a Chinese car in Indonesia just recently.
50:11
I highly recommend it. They're, they're, you know, when
50:14
Elon Musk used to laugh at BYD like more than 10 years ago and
50:19
back then he was back then, he was totally that.
50:22
That was totally legit. Like he had the right to laugh
50:26
at BYD more than 10 years ago because BYD was making shitty
50:29
cars back then. I remembered it was a dating
50:32
show in China and like the the the the.
50:36
All the women and they were brutal.
50:39
They were making fun of the guys that driving BYD.
50:41
It's like, no, no, I'm not going to never going to date a guy
50:46
driving a VYDI was so embarrassing, right so.
50:50
So, so, so Elon Musk was correct to laugh at BYD 10 years ago,
50:54
but things have changed so drastically in 10 years now BYD
50:59
is probably going to be the world's biggest automaker in,
51:04
in, in, in in 10 years time. I think so, yeah.
51:07
I'll tell you what the yeah, I mean, here in South Africa BYD
51:10
have got exceptionally good 'cause I'm just not interested
51:13
in in electric vehicles. But but I really do like GWM and
51:19
have all yeah, those calls are outstanding.
51:22
They sell a lot in Russia. They sell sell a lot in Russia
51:26
because because they're more rugged.
51:27
Yeah, yeah, and and and I'm a good fan of.
51:31
GWM. Yeah, and and.
51:32
Because the Western company, they voluntarily gave up all
51:36
that market, they pull out of Russia.
51:38
So. So it's all Chinese car new.
51:40
All the new car in Russia is in Chinese now.
51:43
That's. That's, that's the other thing
51:44
about Russia. I was when I was over in the
51:46
UAEI was hanging out with the with the Russian guy and he was
51:49
saying when, when they sanctioned, when America
51:52
sanctioned Russia, he says. It didn't affect us because we
51:55
just took over all those businesses with Russians and now
51:57
we have better quality. Yep, Yep, that's exactly what
52:01
happened. I mean, I, I went to, I went to
52:03
Moscow, their stores are full. Their, their, their shop, their
52:07
shops are full. And it's not, you would not know
52:11
that's a, that's a country at war.
52:13
And, and, and, and people, This is why like Chris, not Chris
52:18
Tucker, Tucker Carlson went to Moscow a couple months after I,
52:21
I went to Moscow and he was amazed.
52:23
It's because Americans don't travel, man.
52:25
They, they, they don't know any better.
52:27
And they, they really think, you know, people like John McCain
52:31
and, and Lindsey Graham, they say, oh, Moscow, Russia is just
52:35
a giant gas station with news. I'm like, if that's a giant gas
52:39
station, that's, that must be the most beautiful gas station
52:42
I've ever visited because it's Moscow in summer is beautiful,
52:46
man. Yeah.
52:47
You know, again, it comes down to propaganda and it sounds like
52:51
we have anti American sentiment and we don't that's that's not
52:54
the case. I I don't dislike Americans.
52:58
When we talk about America, we generally refer to the deep
53:00
state or the US government. The whole the whole framework,
53:03
the structure that I. I can, I can attest to that.
53:06
Germs is not just, you know, trying to cover his ass.
53:09
He's a great lover of American pop culture and American Music
53:14
in particular. You know, because you, you, you
53:16
are like a connoisseur of, of, of American pop culture and so.
53:21
Yeah, British, yes. And I mean, my ancestry comes
53:24
from, you know, the UK and Europe.
53:26
I'm not anti any of that stuff. Americans seem to think that the
53:29
whole world cares about them and loves them.
53:32
And and and by the way, the in the Gulf, they're quite advanced
53:37
like, you know, like I wouldn't I?
53:39
Dubai is insane. Dubai.
53:41
I mean, like, I love the, because I remember I, I was, I
53:47
did a transit through Dubai to go to Russia and you know,
53:51
because my, my Internet in Indonesia is shit and I was
53:54
trying to upload this file for like many times.
53:57
I keep on failing and I go to Dubai airport using Wi-Fi Zoom.
54:02
You know, they, they, they have, they have real 5G.
54:04
It's like so fast. So I was, I was very impressed.
54:07
I I fell in love and, and you know, to speaking propaganda,
54:11
you know, even I wasn't immune before I went to Russia.
54:15
You know, even though I, I am aware of the propaganda being
54:18
waged against Russia, I thought I'm, you know, pretty cognizant
54:22
of propaganda. But when I went to Moscow,
54:25
still, it surprised me to see how vibrant the place was in the
54:30
in the summertime. And I then I realized.
54:33
This is because all the image I see of Moscow is always gloomy
54:36
images like in the winter, it's dark.
54:40
There's like, there's never like a sunny day in Moscow in the, in
54:44
the mainstream media, right? And, and so we'll actually go
54:47
there And then when the birds are chip chirping, it's sunny,
54:50
people are are walking around in in beautiful summer dresses.
54:55
It's just. AI was not expecting that.
54:58
I I always surprised. So, so, so propaganda effects
55:01
everyone. And I think it does take effort
55:04
to kind of deprogram yourself, right?
55:06
But that's why people listen. That's why people listen to our
55:09
show, right? That's the way people listen to
55:11
you. Germs, Yeah.
55:13
What's the moral of the story called?
55:15
I don't know, I think the moral of the story, just keep an open
55:18
mind. Travel, travel, go, go see for
55:21
yourself. Like don't believe, you know,
55:25
you know, take everything with a pinch of salt and and have a
55:28
little skepticism and and then I think you do that very well.
55:32
You do that very well and keep an open mind.
55:34
Always be skeptic and verify yourself trust.
55:38
But always verify. But also remember, Chinese
55:42
propaganda is also real. You don't want to elevate China
55:48
to this, to this country that now does no harm.
55:52
The Chinese government also has a deep.
55:53
Statement germs Chinese propaganda is shit man.
55:56
The Chinese. For Chinese state media, I mean,
55:59
like, I don't, I don't know anybody who could be falling for
56:02
Chinese propaganda or should be scared of Chinese propaganda.
56:05
I mean, they're, they're like if you look at.
56:09
The official Chinese state media like People's Daily, right?
56:13
What they what they tweet out X it's easier.
56:17
Pandas or like high speed trains or execution of crop.
56:22
Music. Or or with horrible music and
56:25
with and, and execution of crop officials.
56:28
That's it. That's like, I can tell it's
56:30
almost like they, they, they rotate these three stories,
56:33
right? Pandas, trains and and the
56:36
execution of crop officials. How can how can I follow you?
56:41
I'm a prolific ship poster on X. Just my name.
56:44
Carl Zah again. It's a lot of ship.
56:47
Posts so don't take me seriously unless it's true, then do take
56:50
it seriously. And I do have a YouTube channel,
56:53
Carl Zah. Again same, just my name Carl
56:57
Zah. And I have a Patreon site where
56:59
I post more stuff on Chinese history.
57:02
I'm doing a chronological retelling of Chinese history
57:06
from like the very beginning. Now I'm up to like 3.
57:10
There's 316 BC, so equivalent in the western history is like the
57:16
period after Alexander the Great just died so.
57:19
You know, I, I. Still have like 2504 hundred
57:22
years 300 years to go taking my. Time.
57:25
It's not. It's not that much work.
57:28
I'm going to. Live a long time, germs.
57:30
I'm going to live a long time, yeah.
57:32
All right, calls are. Thank you for joining me in the
57:34
trenches. Thank you.