Latest / The Living Loss | Navigating Invisible Grief & Identity / 10 | Living with the Stages of Parenting: Grieving the Versions of Our Kids w/ Christine Vega-Perez
Transcript
- Cassandra: Hello friends, I'm Cassandra Harris Towner. Daiana, LMHC: and I'm Daiana Bernard. Cassandra: And as licensed mental health counselors, we're unpacking the quiet, complex griefs that don't come with funeral because you can't heal what you don't acknowledge. Daiana, LMHC: Welcome to the Living Loss Podcast. We are so glad you're joining our conversation as we name these losses and create a meaningful path forward together. Please subscribe and share this episode. It helps us grow this community and reach others who need to know that their grief is valid. Let's dive in. Cassandra: Before we bring our guests in, we wanted to lay some groundwork. Today we're going to be looking at anticipatory grief in parenting and how it intersects with primary caregiver stress. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, I think that as parents, our experience are very nuanced. We may become parents at a younger age, at an older age, and these experiences are not exclusive to everyone. They're not general. There are some experiences that parents might have. One of them is identity fusion, and that's usually for the primary caregiver. That's the stage where their child isn't, it isn't just a life phase, it's their operational reality. It's your schedule. It's your social circle. It's your success matrix. How are you measuring your success? It's all tied to where they are in their life. Sometimes our only friends are, our kids' friends, parents. ⁓ I a bunch of phone numbers saying so-and-so's mom, so-and-so's dad. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Yeah. come to think of it, that's how I keep everyone separated, is like how I know them. It's very bizarre. But when that stage shifts, it does trigger a role loss. ⁓ not just losing a version of your child, you're being phased out of this job that you've mastered 24 seven. And the hardest part is you think that you've mastered it and then everything changes and then you get this whole new kid again. ⁓ can often create an identity vacuum where it's, well, I'm no longer Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Cassandra: baby, so who am I now? That's why this grief often feels so much sharper for one parent than the other because, again, like you mentioned above, the primary caregiver often is impacted a little bit heavier in these areas than the other parent. It doesn't mean that both parents don't play a role or feel the feeling. It's just sometimes it can hit one a little bit harder than the other. Daiana, LMHC: Right. Right? There is also, of course, when it comes to being a parent, a guilt cycle. And how we wish for a break, like that's all we want. But then when we get a break, because they're a little independent hits, whether they're starting to walk or they're starting school or going to college, we feel this grief spike because that stress. was proof that we were needed, that stress was proof that we were doing something right. Cassandra: That's true. And if you're not living with that stress and that chaos, then what are you doing? It feels like you're almost doing something wrong. So it's not just a guilt cycle, but there's also a lot of like shame built in with that too, because I must be doing something wrong if I'm not feeling that way. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, part of it is as well that you're sad that it's gone and you're wondering that I enjoy it enough. That I do everything right. I feel like I could have done better or I could have been more present. Cassandra: The only thing you can hope for is that you did enough because that cycle is gone. That stage has passed and now we're into a whole new child. And then this can lead into like cognitive overload and bracing. It's why the primary caregiver is the first to notice these sort of blasts, the first to notice that the diaper bag is getting lighter, the first to notice that the crib is getting too small for the baby. We talk about how this bracing prevents us from being present, leading to a secondary layer of regret because we're always preparing for this next step, this next change, this next thing that's happening. But are we actually really being present in the moment and enjoying it? Daiana, LMHC: Right? And that's why we have to move through our grief. We talk a lot about that in all of our episodes where we're finding ways to move through it, to explore that shift from carrying your child physically to figuring out how to be their safe space from five feet away. Don't get too close, even when they're teenagers. Cassandra: Thank especially when they're teenagers. I always think that's so funny because when they're little, they can't get enough of the closeness. And then as they get older, they want this autonomy in this space. And so my 14 year old spends a lot of time in her room now, where my four year old would be really, really happy if she could crawl directly inside my face. So there's, there's this really interesting. Well, I kicked her out of there. She was aggressively evicted from there. So she not going back, but like, Daiana, LMHC: Hmm. Good I thought you were gonna say womb. ⁓ yeah, they wish they could. Cassandra: she would be happiest like right here all of the time. Daiana, LMHC: ⁓ with little ones, they still look back. They still look back to see if you're there. And even the teenagers, even though the doors are closed, ⁓ if are right behind the door in another room, they still do feel safe. So Cassandra: It is good. Daiana, LMHC: always have keep that in mind. we're going interview Christine ⁓ Vega Perez. She is a decision making and accountability life coach. with over 17 years of experience in the healthcare industry. She's a former CNA, RN, and healthcare quality and risk leader. She now helps healthcare professionals reduce burnout and lead more fulfilling lives. She is the founder of Life's Risk Management, LLC, and the host of But Are You Happy? Podcast. I love that title. where she shares tools and mindset shifts to help live with more clarity, confidence, and joy. Welcome. Cassandra: That's really cool. Welcome. Christine Vega-Perez: Hello, so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. ⁓ Cassandra: So glad that you could join us today. Christine Vega-Perez: very excited. Daiana, LMHC: I was going to mention how the three of us are sick or have been feeling of symptoms. I know Cassandra, thank you for being here. really do appreciate it. know that, ⁓ mean, that's the mom in you. We're here even when we're sick. ⁓ sure you'd even think to cancel today, but I do hope you feel better. ⁓ Cassandra: I had a mild fantasy and then I was like, it's not worth it. I'll just lie in bed and feel guilty because that's what the mom in me says, like, you're supposed to be up and doing things. I'm like, okay, I'll get up and do some stuff. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah, but thank you. Cassandra: glad to be here because I was talking to Christine a little bit before we started recording and I'm very excited about the topic that she brought with her today. So Christine, where would you like to begin? Christine Vega-Perez: Well, I guess we can start with why I thought to bring this topic, right? ⁓ When Daiana asked if I'd like to be a guest... Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Cassandra: Yeah. Christine Vega-Perez: We started talking about grief outside of death. That's the obvious one. That's a very difficult grief to work through. But then the thought of what other griefs do we face? And I thought that was really interesting because we don't think about that as much. And personally, for me, one that I think I'm constantly going through is having to say goodbye to the stages of what my kids were previously in. Cassandra: Mm-hmm. Christine Vega-Perez: I have two boys, right now they're six and eight. They are growing rapidly. My husband is six, three. So these kids are the tallest in their class all the time. I cannot keep up with shoes and clothes. So I don't know if that makes it more blatantly obvious that they just keep growing out of these stages, that it's been such a factor for me. I mean, I think it's for everybody though. So that is why I wanted to bring this topic ⁓ as I continuously agree. my baby's growing up. It's such balance. There's obviously so much joy attached to it as well. ⁓ I'm proud of I love seeing the stages that they're entering. Cassandra: Okay. Christine Vega-Perez: fun. It's really exciting age right now. But then I look back at pictures and I think where my baby go? Their little voice, their little laugh, ⁓ their little hands, all of it. So yeah, that's where that ⁓ kind of started from. Daiana, LMHC: when we become a mom we don't know ⁓ all of things all of a sudden we feel sad and don't know why and it could be ⁓ that you know that every time you wash their clothes, they're things that are not going to fit them anymore. Or when you change your diaper that I just went through one box, but I have a whole load of ones over there and they're ready on three, you know, and it's that rapid growth. I believe that children really are a testament of how fast time passes because you can see a friend that's an adult. They basically look similar. But if they have a child, and you haven't seen them in six months, that kid is bigger. Every time I see Cassandra's little one. Talk about tall. She's a tall one as well. So what was that like in the beginning? Like what made you notice? Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah, I think the diapers, the clothes, the shoes, those are the very obvious ones that you're having to physically get rid of something, donate, exchange the diaper box. And so you are, ⁓ clear that they are, they're growing. But then there's also the thought of, ⁓ well, like they're walking now, so I don't have to carry them everywhere. They're able to walk and encouraging that. Also, the then the next stage of not being even able to carry them if I wanted to. So that's where I'm at now. They are too big and I cannot lift them up. And so when that happened, you know, that's hard. would I mean, I still hold them for a second, but it's ridiculous. It looks so ridiculous. They're almost as tall as me. I think those those stages as well. More recent one, though, that I remember telling my husband and it didn't click to him. But Cassandra: Thanks Christine Vega-Perez: I said, they don't really ask to sleep in our bed anymore. We used to have to take turns because someone always wanted to sleep with mommy and puppy. And now it only happens if someone's not feeling well, right? The wake up come from their bed and climb in with us. But that used to be a routine thing. They'd each have a night because they would be, you we couldn't have them both. They're just, they're too big. So we'd give them turns and they stopped. That just quietly, that one was quietly going away. Where one day we realized, wait a minute. They don't even want their night anymore. They don't even want their turn. They stopped asking to sleep with us. And we both, that one hit us both really hard. And that's not a really, you know, a physical item that we got rid of. It was just a slow transition. Daiana, LMHC: Some of them are quick, like they're starting school, and then some of them are slow to go. How did that change your life as far as when these things started to shift? Did you see ⁓ identity shift in yourself? Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah. I think, you know, I did because as they are less reliant on you, where I'm not carrying them everywhere, I'm not changing diapers, I'm not feeding, well, I was gonna say I'm not feeding them every two hours, but I think I am still doing it. But at least they can get snacks in between. So as that you gain time that you didn't have, I couldn't even think. When I had a one-year-old and a three-year-old, Daiana, LMHC: They're boys. Christine Vega-Perez: There was no thoughts for much else besides the one-year-old and three-year-old. And so as you gain this time, flexibility, okay, now how do I fill it? Because I'm not needed every second of the day. And that's a good thing too, right? It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's a good thing. So we now get to decide what we're doing with that time. And I've become more active. in organizations and, you know, pouring back into my business and doing things that are fulfilling for me besides being a mom. And I think that's important and it can feel difficult to do because you're almost lost after you come out. It's like you come up for air. You're in the trenches and all of a sudden, not all of sudden, but slowly it kind of calms down and you can breathe again. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Christine Vega-Perez: I don't think my mind was clear for a solid four years. So when my mind started getting clearer, I thought, ⁓ you know, I'm in a sorority. And I took a pretty large gap of participating with things. And I thought, I used to love doing that. I need to get back in it. And so I am. And so there's different things that you can start to enjoy again, maybe that you do, or learn new things, start doing new things that you didn't, I picked up running. Cassandra: Okay. Christine Vega-Perez: I wasn't a runner, I never ran. I love running now. And I've run half marathons, 5Ks, all these things. That's what I started to do is just pour back into me because when I poured back into myself and did things that I enjoy, I was a better mom for it. I need a lot of patience, right? Especially during that toddler phase. That's when I really started. forcing myself to pour back into me is because I noticed I didn't have the patience I wanted. And so, yeah, even then they were at a point where I could say, all right, I'm gonna step out for my 20 minute run or whatever I needed. And slowly you can pour back into yourself so you can feel good about being a great mom for your kiddos. Daiana, LMHC: It's such a challenge. Cassandra: I love that you brought that up because that's such a huge part that often gets lost is making sure that we're taking care of ourselves so that we can be better people for the people who need us. So thank you for pointing that out. Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah. Yeah, because I think there is, we mentioned guilt before, ⁓ ⁓ think that mom guilt is real. And we think, well, that's selfish. The thought is that it's selfish to go for an hour long run. How can I just step out for an hour? When in reality, that's not selfish at all, because all that's doing, again, is ⁓ sure you have a solid foundation so you can pour back into your family. You're going to pour back into them regardless, whether you got that run or not, they're going to be taken care of. So why not do it from a healthier point of view where you're actually feeling good about it? And we mentioned also about during these stages, trying to enjoy the now, enjoy the moments. It's really hard to soak in those precious moments that you're sitting in if you're stressed to the max, if you're burnt out, if you're overwhelmed. It's difficult to enjoy that smile that's in front of you, to take in that laugh. That laugh can almost, if you're stretched out, Max, it's like quiet, just settle down. That's what I was, personally, that's what I would notice, right? Is that it'd be like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm just, I'm so overwhelmed. I'm so frazzled where when I go for my runs and I release that, that laugh is just joy and special to me. And that's how I want to live with my babies, right? That's what I want to do. So, and by no means is it selfish. for you to pour back into you and I want your listeners to understand that fully. Daiana, LMHC: absolutely. And that's such an important message because when you are in the trenches and when you have ⁓ little ones that are close in age, maybe one is potty training, one is in diapers. And like you said, you were foggy for years. ⁓ Your didn't feel clear. And when you're in those stages, you feel like you're never going to get out of it. Christine Vega-Perez: for sure. Daiana, LMHC: and what you're saying is that you will, that it's going to happen and to be present in those moments and that does help with with the guilt afterwards and then you can enjoy when you ⁓ are that phase where you do have more time you can't go back to who you were before kids so that's where that feeling of loss ⁓ comes as well because you have to then think about who am i yes i'm a mom and this has been my focus ⁓ And I'm not that woman that I was before kids either. So it is a lot to take in in that moment and to find yourself again. Many moms say that, that they lose themselves during those years. Cassandra: Mm. Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah. And I think also we're not the same person because we've gone through so much. I think we're even better, right? We're, we are more equipped. We are stronger. We've gone through things that not everybody has and just. Daiana, LMHC: I agree. Christine Vega-Perez: I think we embrace that and say, ⁓ now that I've gone and had this journey, where's it gonna lead me? And that's the beauty of it is we get to choose, we get to decide. And it just takes one thing, one small thing each day of making sure that you're living the life that you want. And I mentioned before that, I think the key for that is just, again, ⁓ and being able to enjoy the moment that you're in. So if you're not enjoying that moment that you're in, what can you do to get yourself there is really... is really important. And that might look like physical activity, that might look like going to therapy, that might look like taking a trip with your girls. You know, it can be a variety of things, ⁓ but just that self-reflection, like, wait, I'm not enjoying my moments as much as I would want to, and how can I change that? Because you get to, you can. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And when we think about what is it like now, it sounds like when you are experiencing these things, you're noticing them, you're talking to your husband about them, it's holding you ⁓ down knowing that ⁓ these are evolving. Christine Vega-Perez: Sure, yes, I do think I try to practice what I preach, right? Take care of myself, pour back in so that I can still enjoy the now. That's not to say I don't have moments. And I mentioned before we hit record that the upcoming moment that's gonna, I don't even know how I'm gonna handle is when my oldest voice cracks and changes and he starts saying, Daiana, LMHC: Hahaha Christine Vega-Perez: And it's not, he's got like such a high pitched voice right now. He's eight. He'll be nine in June. I don't even know when that's going to happen. And I don't know why that's such a milestone point, but I already warned my husband. I will be a mess, right? So it's okay. We can do all the things that we can try to do all the things so that we're prepared for the changes so that we can handle the grief that comes along with it. But there's going to be times where we're just a mess and that's fine too. That's fine too. We get to. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Christine Vega-Perez: Embrace that then and just sit with it and scroll back at the pictures of his whole nine year, you all the years and the videos and just cry. I'm not ashamed to say that there will that's where I'll be as well. Right. And so it's not just like, ⁓ I've I've got it handled and I'm going forward. No, there's going to be those moments as well. And that is completely fine. That's all part of it, too. And then, yeah, then after a good cry session. ⁓ Will I probably go out and go for my run and continue my responsibilities and then enjoy the now? Yes, we get to do that afterwards. But those good solid cry sessions while scrolling through your photos over the years, your thousands and thousands of photos that you have to pay for the iCloud because they don't fit on your phone anymore, that's acceptable. ⁓ Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. It is. So where you are now is accepting all of it. That it's all part of motherhood. That is all part of giving them everything that you want for them to grow. Because we want them to grow and be healthy and learn and all of these things and protect them as well. it's okay to have all these feelings. You said I'm not ⁓ ashamed to have these feelings. Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah. Daiana, LMHC: And this is why this episode is really important because we tend to just keep that to ourselves. dad to say, cry backwards. ⁓ In Spanish, it more sense. But like, you're crying in. You're not letting those tears show because you feel that it's silly. But now ⁓ that you've experienced ⁓ time and time you know that it's part of the journey. ⁓ Christine Vega-Perez: Thank you. Daiana, LMHC: I don't know if you mentioned it, but when we talked about it in the beginning and you said about your identity, why do you feel that it hurts, it hits your heart when you're thinking, like that anticipatory grief? Why do you think that's there for you? Christine Vega-Perez: ⁓ That's a good question. Why does that come up? I mean, so I know we also talked about Did I do enough? So we're losing that stage. That stage is going. It's flying by. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Christine Vega-Perez: Did I do enough? Did I enjoy it enough? Did I pour into them enough in that stage? Did I do it right? That's a question as parents we're always asking. Am I doing this right? ⁓ And ⁓ no one can give you that answer. Even if external parties try, ⁓ that they don't know. ⁓ your parenthood, they don't know your life. That's only for us to validate. And it's hard. It's hard to answer back and say, yeah, I did enough. I did it right. And the reality is we're not always going to be 100 % right in our decisions and our day-to-day actions with our kids. And that's good. I think that's good because if everything was perfect for your kid, you made everything perfect. in parenthood and then they grow up to become adults? Are they going to expect the life that they live in, the world that they live in to be perfect? Because reality check is it's not. So I think when we go through parenthood, not 100 % perfect, with our flaws, but full of love, that is exactly what our kids need to have a good adulthood then, right? To be equipped for the faults for the flaws in the world they're about to live in. So your answer is yes. Your answer can be, yeah, I did it right. It was exactly how it should be. This is your path. This is your journey. These are your kiddos. You did it exactly how it should be, even with the screw ups. Like, that's okay. I don't say the right thing all the time. And then you have to like reflect back on it and then, okay, maybe next time I'll try it this way. That's great. That's all we can do. And I think though, that's where the grief hits so heavy is because you're having all of that like hitting in your face that I do everything right. That stage is over. Was it right? And so the answer is yes, it was right. And we get to believe that. And I hope that people do believe that, you know, that they did do what's right for their kin. And if they're listening to this podcast, they did what's right. Cause when you're, when you're being self-aware, when you're trying to, you know, dive into personal development, you already know you're, doing it right. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Yeah. So many good things there. I know that you shared a few living loss lessons, but we're going to go on to that segment as we wrap up today's conversation. We're going to move into our favorite part of the show, living loss lessons. This is where we bridge everything we've talked about with tangible takeaways you can use right now. ⁓ Cassandra: Now, just remember these lessons aren't about fixing the pain, but about finding a way to carry it. it's a tool ⁓ practice and other times it's reflecting on the meaning you've built from the loss that you never asked for. It's strength you've gained even in the midst of the hard stuff. Daiana, LMHC: As Christine was speaking, I remembered something that really helped me when I thought I'm going to mess my kids up. And it's that someone told me, you will. You're going to mess them up. And I was like, how is this supposed to make me feel better? And after reflection, I understood what they said. We're not going to do it perfectly, and we're not supposed to. We are showing up every day doing our very best. Another thing that helped me is to know that with our kids, there's always an opportunity for repair. And that is something that I love about our generation. Our parents may not agree, but if I do something wrong to my kid, I do say sorry. I say sorry, I take accountability. don't make excuses. ⁓ let them know. ⁓ Christine Vega-Perez: Mm-hmm. Daiana, LMHC: whether I yelled or whatever it is, that wasn't on you. I lost my cool. I'm keeping that in check. I'm working on it. And this is how I'm working on it or whatever it may be to have that conversation because that's very healing for a kid. Mommy didn't mean to be mean to me. She was, she doesn't hate me because kids go there. Kids go there. You don't love me anymore. You hate me. And when you do have that repair, I trust in those things. Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah. And I think. Cassandra: Christine, I was just curious if you had any living loss lessons that you might want to share with us today. Christine Vega-Perez: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is we keep mentioning enjoying the moment, but getting there, getting to the point where you can. And that is in my coaching framework, I talk about building your foundation of calm. And if we can really build on that foundation where we're at a calmer state more often, not 100%, not all the time, but if we can be in a calming state, we're more likely to then enjoy that moment. And so it's figuring out what works for you to get you to a calming state, because that's going to look different for everybody. But I definitely think some sort of physical activity to release those nerves, and I'm speaking with two healthcare professionals here, so I'm sure you know the science behind it and just how releasing, and I say it like that, right, like just like releasing your nerves when you are overwhelmed can then help. So physically exerting that, but also just simple tasks like deep breathing. Daiana, LMHC: Mm-hmm. Christine Vega-Perez: in that moment if you are feeling stressed out, taking some good deep breaths, meditation if you're able to, good sleep, which is hard when they're in the younger stages. But when you are able to do a step here, a step there, overall you're building up that foundation of calm. And that's when you can start to enjoy those moments more. So start with one, one thing. We're talking about a tangible step. So maybe that is get Daiana, LMHC: Thank Christine Vega-Perez: 30 minutes more of sleep tonight. That's it, just one thing. Or go for a five minute walk in the sunshine. So pick one small step and then you can build on it. But starting there and seeing how that feels and yeah, hopefully you can then notice that as you're spending your time with your kids. Daiana, LMHC: Thank I love that. Cassandra. Cassandra: Thank you. So I love the idea of I am enough, I do enough, I can be enough. we talked about that because there's so much like guilt and loss ⁓ shame ⁓ up in parenting, but it comes down to not ⁓ like enough all the time. ⁓ So we talked a great deal about it today and just making sure that, ⁓ remind myself that regardless anything else, ⁓ I'm the absolute best I can with what I have ⁓ and I can be kind to myself and I don't have to carry this guilt and shame. I've realized that with a 10-year ⁓ age between my children, ⁓ my is getting a completely different parent than the older two got and they recognize that too. ⁓ And there's a little bit of guilt that's wrapped up in that, but the cool thing is I get to be that parent for them now. And right now that's enough. And I'm grateful for that lesson. I'm grateful for the idea that regardless of anything that's happened, regardless of what I try to hold on to, I'm doing enough and I am enough right now. And that's a gift. So thank you for bringing that to my attention and thank you for reminding me that that's there. I appreciate it. Christine Vega-Perez: Absolutely. Daiana, LMHC: Thank you. And thank Christine, for being here today. Thank you for ⁓ showing ⁓ parents support and knowing that their experience that they might not share, it is safe to share. It is something that we all experience and for giving them ⁓ all of ideas, all the things that you've learned throughout and ⁓ how ⁓ cope with that as well. Thank you, Christine, and thank you to our listeners for being a part of our circle today. Remember by sharing this episode, you're helping us reach someone else who is carrying their losses and silence. Let's keep growing this community together. Subscribe, follow, share, and know that your story matters. Cassandra: Just as a quick reminder, this podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only. While we are therapists, we're not your therapists, and this does not replace professional mental health care. If you feel like you would like to speak to someone, please reach out to a professional near you. But thank you all for being here today, and thank you again, Christine. It was a pleasure. Christine Vega-Perez: Thank you both, it was so nice talking to you. Daiana, LMHC: Yeah. Before we go as well, Christine's information is in the bio. If you are interested in learning more about the work that she does, reach out. Cassandra: Thank you.