Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Four Men on Bikes - A Mysterious Quadruple Homicide in Oklahoma

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Four Men on Bikes - A Mysterious Quadruple Homicide in Oklahoma · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's not too many
0:20
Speaker 1: things in this world that I enjoy more than going fishing.
0:26
Speaker 1: And one particular type of fish I like to seek
0:29
Speaker 1: out in freshwater, that is or catfishing. I loved catfish,
0:36
Speaker 1: and you know one of the hubs of catfishing in
0:39
Speaker 1: America is actually Oklahoma. You get up there in that
0:43
Speaker 1: red clay, those stained rivers, and they catch some of
0:48
Speaker 1: the biggest cats around. When you go fishing, sometimes you
0:53
Speaker 1: hook into things that you didn't expect to hook into,
1:00
Speaker 1: and sometimes you find things that will just absolutely chill
1:04
Speaker 1: you to the core. Today we're going to talk about
1:09
Speaker 1: four men. We're all shot, dismembered, and their bodies were
1:16
Speaker 1: tossed into the Grand Fork River and Mulke, Oklahoma. I'm
1:24
Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morten and this its Body Backs. My dear
1:32
Speaker 1: friend Jackie Howard is with me today. She's the executive
1:35
Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jack you like
1:39
Speaker 1: to fish? Would it surprise you for me to say yes,
1:42
Speaker 1: I do. I like to fish too. And you know
1:45
Speaker 1: the thing about Oklahoma is that all those shows that
1:48
Speaker 1: you see on TV Manytimes, some of these shows from
1:51
Speaker 1: back just a few years ago. Have you seen these
1:53
Speaker 1: guys that go into the river and they go to noodles.
1:55
Speaker 1: Oh yes, their arms into the water and they wiggle
2:00
Speaker 1: their fingers around in some big old cap will bite
2:02
Speaker 1: their hand and arm and they just pull it out.
2:05
Speaker 1: And to me, it's terrifying because being from Louisiana, I
2:08
Speaker 1: know what else is underneath there, and it's not alligators.
2:10
Speaker 1: They don't have alligators up in Oklahoma, and I don't think,
2:12
Speaker 1: but they do have snapping turtles, and I'm terrified of them.
2:16
Speaker 1: You know, they say a snapping turtle won't turn loose
2:18
Speaker 1: off your finger until it thunders, So I'm terrified of
2:21
Speaker 1: that good reason to be. I'm absolutely terrifying. But I
2:25
Speaker 1: gotta tell you this case today on bodybacks is absolutely horrific.
2:28
Speaker 1: I was amazed when this came up in my news
2:32
Speaker 1: feed and I began to kind of dig into it
2:34
Speaker 1: a little bit. This is another one of those cases.
2:36
Speaker 1: And I guess all of our cases are Joe that
2:38
Speaker 1: we just look at and it's so hard to comprehend
2:42
Speaker 1: and understand. Four friends, actually two brothers and two other friends.
2:48
Speaker 1: Billy Chastain, thirty years old, His brother Mark Chatain thirty
2:52
Speaker 1: two years old, Mike Spike's thirty two years old, and
2:55
Speaker 1: Alex Stevens twenty nine. They left Billy's home on bicycle
3:00
Speaker 1: on the evening of Sunday, October ninth. Than they were
3:03
Speaker 1: reported missing soon thereafter they were not seen again. That's
3:07
Speaker 1: a very odd way to go missing, peddling off on
3:11
Speaker 1: a bicycle. And then their bodies were recovered in a
3:17
Speaker 1: local river, and as you said, they had been shot
3:20
Speaker 1: and dismembered. Mode of transportation off the bat, Joe, how
3:25
Speaker 1: do you follow a bicycle? If you're trying to track
3:28
Speaker 1: these Let's just say start there. You're trying to track
3:31
Speaker 1: these guys, how do you track a bicycle? Look, you
3:35
Speaker 1: know when I said that, the case kind of shocked
3:38
Speaker 1: me when it popped up on my feet and I
3:39
Speaker 1: beginning to kind of dig into it a little bit.
3:42
Speaker 1: One of the reasons is bicycles. I don't know that
3:45
Speaker 1: I've ever encountered a homicide like this singular, much less
3:50
Speaker 1: a quadruple homicide. And that's what we're talking about here.
3:53
Speaker 1: How do you track them? And what an interesting piece
3:55
Speaker 1: to this as well that the sheriff kind of lets
3:58
Speaker 1: slip out up their news confer and this is kind
4:02
Speaker 1: of wild too. They were actually pulling wagons behind the
4:05
Speaker 1: bicycles and I'm thinking, why in the world would you
4:09
Speaker 1: be doing this, And these these villas were not out
4:14
Speaker 1: unlike an afternoon ride, you know, like you see these
4:17
Speaker 1: guys wearing spandex and are riding them down the road
4:19
Speaker 1: and they're going for time and distancing. No no, no, no no, no,
4:22
Speaker 1: that's that's not what this is. These guys were using
4:26
Speaker 1: this as a mode of transportation to get to a
4:29
Speaker 1: specific location, and the sheriff has implied at least that
4:35
Speaker 1: their destination was to a location where they could get
4:38
Speaker 1: involved in some missie, where they were going to be
4:40
Speaker 1: involved in something that they shouldn't have been involved in.
4:44
Speaker 1: And to this moment in time, as far as this
4:47
Speaker 1: investigation is concerned, they still have yet to recover these bicycles,
4:51
Speaker 1: and I think that's going to be a big piece
4:52
Speaker 1: to this because I have to imagine that whoever wound
4:57
Speaker 1: up bringing about these individual's desks and they're subsequent dismemberment
5:04
Speaker 1: had something to do with those bikes. And I think
5:07
Speaker 1: that as an investigator, if you can find a location
5:10
Speaker 1: where they are deposited, it is going to give you
5:14
Speaker 1: an idea as to who was involved and at what
5:17
Speaker 1: point in time they were involved, because you're going to
5:19
Speaker 1: look for things like, you know, any kind of damage
5:22
Speaker 1: to the bikes, like where they broadsided by a car,
5:26
Speaker 1: was any of the frame tubular frame that they used,
5:29
Speaker 1: was it bent in any way? I think that those
5:31
Speaker 1: are going to be considerations as well. And when they
5:35
Speaker 1: do finally get their hands on those bikes, to trust me,
5:38
Speaker 1: they're going to go over them from stem to stern
5:42
Speaker 1: to try to find any any kind of trace evidence.
5:46
Speaker 1: Right now, I'm kind of interested in as far as
5:49
Speaker 1: damage goes, I'm kind of interested in is there any
5:52
Speaker 1: transfer of paint on them? Where they sideswiped by a
5:55
Speaker 1: car knocked off the road? You get that paint. Transferred
5:58
Speaker 1: paint is specifically inifiable in a forensic lab, you can
6:02
Speaker 1: actually trace it back to the source from who you know,
6:06
Speaker 1: who manufactured the paint. It's actually a fascinating area of
6:10
Speaker 1: forensics in the trace evidence vision of most crime labs.
6:14
Speaker 1: And so they can do that, and it's it's going
6:17
Speaker 1: to be interesting if they recover them. Can you trace
6:20
Speaker 1: a bicycle tire as you would an automobile tire. Yeah,
6:24
Speaker 1: I mean they have Look, I mean they are specific,
6:27
Speaker 1: two specific types of rims and more broadly, two specific
6:32
Speaker 1: types of bicycles. And you know the types of tires
6:35
Speaker 1: that are own bikes are particular to a particular framework.
6:39
Speaker 1: If you're you know, mountain biking, or if it's a
6:42
Speaker 1: touring bicycle or you know, you have you seen these
6:46
Speaker 1: bikes that people ride at the at the beach that
6:48
Speaker 1: have these gigantic tires on the cruisers Yeah, yeah, cruisers,
6:52
Speaker 1: and they're very distinctive. When tires come on a vehicle.
6:58
Speaker 1: You go to lease that might sell a bicycle, or
7:02
Speaker 1: you go to a police that sells a car. The
7:04
Speaker 1: tires that that if it's a brand new car, the
7:07
Speaker 1: tires that that individual vehicle come with or refer to
7:10
Speaker 1: as OE, which means original equipment, and the OE, the
7:16
Speaker 1: original equipment is specific to a particular type of manufacturer.
7:20
Speaker 1: And when you have crime labs, they have reference material there.
7:25
Speaker 1: It's one of the most fascinated People will have no
7:27
Speaker 1: idea how much reference material crime labs have. And just
7:31
Speaker 1: this is really kind of going far afield, but I'll
7:34
Speaker 1: give you an idea. Places like the FBI Crime Lab,
7:37
Speaker 1: they actually have millions of buttons. Buttons, and they have
7:43
Speaker 1: just to identify buttons off of clothing and zippers and
7:46
Speaker 1: fasteners and all that stuff. Well, they have the same
7:48
Speaker 1: thing for tires, and so if you have a tire,
7:52
Speaker 1: for instance, you can trace it back if it is
7:56
Speaker 1: OE or if it's a replacement tire. Okay, So if
8:01
Speaker 1: these bicycles are found and say the equipment has been
8:04
Speaker 1: changed to have at some point in time, maybe they
8:06
Speaker 1: blew out a tire or the tire became warm or
8:09
Speaker 1: something like that, you can actually go back and trace
8:13
Speaker 1: it to the replacement manufacturer and you know who might
8:16
Speaker 1: distribute this particular tire in a location. And another thing
8:19
Speaker 1: with tire, with tires themselves, they leave behind a mark, okay,
8:25
Speaker 1: particularly on soft so oil. We see this all the
8:28
Speaker 1: time relative to motor vehicles when we're assessing a crime scene.
8:32
Speaker 1: But tires are the same way, and they have specific
8:34
Speaker 1: wear patterns as well. And it's even more specific with
8:37
Speaker 1: bicycles because bicycles directly support the weight of an individual. Okay,
8:45
Speaker 1: and this is kind of fascinating because with cars, you know,
8:48
Speaker 1: it has a major suspension system, shock absorbers, all that stuff.
8:52
Speaker 1: So the weight of an individual is not going to
8:55
Speaker 1: impact a motor vehicle, a four wheel motor vehicle as
8:59
Speaker 1: much as it will, say, for instance, a bicycle tire.
9:03
Speaker 1: So if you're riding a bicycle and you're larger, there
9:07
Speaker 1: will be a distinct heavy impression that's left behind. So
9:10
Speaker 1: if you get off of this road and you're riding
9:13
Speaker 1: on a dirt surface, maybe the tire tracks should just
9:16
Speaker 1: suddenly end. Well suddenly, you know, if you find that bike,
9:20
Speaker 1: you can marry it up to that track in particular,
9:23
Speaker 1: and that could be a piece of evidence here because
9:25
Speaker 1: we don't know where these bikes wound up. But what
9:29
Speaker 1: if the perpetrator went back after maybe, for instance, he
9:34
Speaker 1: did grieve his harm to these individuals and kill them
9:37
Speaker 1: and then rode each bike down a hill into a
9:41
Speaker 1: place where he deposited them. Well, those tracks will be
9:44
Speaker 1: specific to that bicycle and also the weight of the
9:47
Speaker 1: individual that was riding it. And it's just one of
9:49
Speaker 1: those little nuanced areas that we look at in investigations.
9:53
Speaker 1: What about the distance traveled in the search, because obviously
9:57
Speaker 1: you're not going to have near mileage covered with a
10:00
Speaker 1: bicycle that you're going to have with a car, So
10:03
Speaker 1: how do you calculate how far to extend your search. Well,
10:08
Speaker 1: I think that conversely, you're not going to have as
10:13
Speaker 1: small of an area as you might if an individual
10:15
Speaker 1: as a pedestrian, So you're going to kind of split
10:19
Speaker 1: the difference. You know, you have to think you got
10:21
Speaker 1: four friends riding along on bicycles, and boy, would they
10:25
Speaker 1: stand out. I just had that thought that came to me.
10:27
Speaker 1: You know, boy would they stand out if they're pulling
10:29
Speaker 1: wagons behind a bicycle. I've seen wagons behind bicycles, you know,
10:33
Speaker 1: I've got grand kids. You go to the beach and
10:36
Speaker 1: take bikes, and you can get the little attachments that
10:38
Speaker 1: go on the back. And yet there are actual wagons
10:40
Speaker 1: to wield, wagons that you can pull behind a bike.
10:44
Speaker 1: Maybe they're homemade. They're really going to stand out. And
10:48
Speaker 1: you know, certainly you would be able to go a
10:50
Speaker 1: greater distance if you're not pulling the load as opposed
10:52
Speaker 1: to coming back if you filled up these wagons. And
10:56
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it has to do with
10:58
Speaker 1: the physical condition that the individual will sort in at
11:01
Speaker 1: that particular time, the road and weather conditions. How hot
11:04
Speaker 1: was it. Oklahoma can get pretty hot even into that
11:08
Speaker 1: time of year. When you're getting into the end of
11:10
Speaker 1: September early October. Could they have continued Did they have
11:14
Speaker 1: any drugs on board? Maybe that is yet to be determined.
11:18
Speaker 1: So all of those factors are going to play into this.
11:21
Speaker 1: And also how serviceable were these bicycles that they were
11:24
Speaker 1: on or was there sufficient inflation in the tires, because
11:27
Speaker 1: that's a big deal with a bicycle where they mechanically sound.
11:31
Speaker 1: How far could you go on this saying I don't know,
11:33
Speaker 1: Maybe there are brand new bikes and you could ride
11:35
Speaker 1: from one end of Oklahoma to the other end of Oklahoma,
11:38
Speaker 1: drive all the way out and panhandled for all I know.
11:41
Speaker 1: But you have to take all of those factors into
11:45
Speaker 1: consideration in addition to are you riding on unimproved roads
11:50
Speaker 1: or improved roads? Is this an area that is a
11:53
Speaker 1: two lane blacktop that's recently been topped, or is this
11:57
Speaker 1: an area where you've got a dirt road, perhaps it's
12:00
Speaker 1: out a gravel base to it, you're not going to
12:01
Speaker 1: be able to make as much distance. Or is it
12:04
Speaker 1: a road that is poorly surfaced, maybe it's eroded in
12:07
Speaker 1: some way. You're having to dodge potholes and that takes
12:10
Speaker 1: a toll on the individual operating the bicycle over period
12:13
Speaker 1: of time. So I think that all those factors will
12:15
Speaker 1: come into play. And good old technology plays into this too,
12:19
Speaker 1: because police turn to digital information to help track the
12:24
Speaker 1: four men's movements after they left the home. Mark Chastain's
12:29
Speaker 1: wife used an app on her phone. Her husband's phone
12:34
Speaker 1: was tracked to a salvage yard, to a local gas station,
12:39
Speaker 1: and then to a second scrap yard using the data
12:43
Speaker 1: from that app on Mark Chastain's Wife's phone. Good old technology, Joe, Yeah,
12:49
Speaker 1: who would have thunk it relative to a bicycle, right,
12:52
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously it stands the reason, well everybody is
12:56
Speaker 1: kind of an overstatement, but many people carry phones now,
12:59
Speaker 1: more I think do than don't. And so you've got,
13:03
Speaker 1: you know, this modern technology of a phone that is
13:06
Speaker 1: essentially having an impact here relative to somebody riding a
13:10
Speaker 1: bicycle a non motorized vehicle going down the road, and yeah,
13:15
Speaker 1: they can track them with this. And you know, another
13:18
Speaker 1: thing is really crucial here because with this mechanism put
13:24
Speaker 1: of these phones that they're tracking, one of the things
13:27
Speaker 1: that you get back is a time signature, and so
13:31
Speaker 1: depended upon the time of day and depended upon the
13:35
Speaker 1: individuals that may, say, for instance, travel up and down
13:39
Speaker 1: that road, say couriers or people that are delivery people
13:42
Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. They have certain timetables
13:46
Speaker 1: that they stick to. And then you've got people that
13:48
Speaker 1: are going to work, coming home from work, leaving to
13:52
Speaker 1: go out and get groceries, and maybe somebody saw something
13:55
Speaker 1: during that period of time, and that's where canvassing comes
13:59
Speaker 1: in on the part of the detectives. They would go
14:01
Speaker 1: up and down this road and they're going to visit
14:04
Speaker 1: every home along this thoroughfare, and they're gonna knock on
14:07
Speaker 1: doors and they're gonna say, hey, look, did you happen
14:10
Speaker 1: to see four guys on bicycles with wagons behind them?
14:14
Speaker 1: And you know it's that's not a passive thing. That's
14:18
Speaker 1: something that's like, yeah, I did. I couldn't believe what
14:21
Speaker 1: I was seeing when I saw them. Or maybe somebody
14:24
Speaker 1: might say, hey, you know what those guys are up
14:26
Speaker 1: and down this road all the time I've seen them.
14:29
Speaker 1: They all travel together on these bicycles towing these wagons
14:33
Speaker 1: behind them. The leave going down the road and they're
14:35
Speaker 1: empty and they come back and they're filled with stuff.
14:38
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of data that is going to
14:41
Speaker 1: point you to certain points along the continuum along this timeline,
14:46
Speaker 1: if you will, relative to activity, location, time, all those
14:51
Speaker 1: sorts of things. And I gotta tell you, Jackie, one
14:54
Speaker 1: of the things that really stands out to me is
14:57
Speaker 1: that according to the police, apparently you know that second
15:00
Speaker 1: scrapyard that you mentioned, Jackie, that's going to be key
15:04
Speaker 1: because that is where the phone was actually turned off.
15:09
Speaker 1: And I don't know. The sheriff actually said in a
15:13
Speaker 1: property just at Jason, just at Jason, to that scrapyard
15:18
Speaker 1: where that phone went dead or went silent, he thinks
15:22
Speaker 1: that a violent act occurred. And it's the only thing,
15:26
Speaker 1: you say, a muddy river. Why in the world would
15:49
Speaker 1: you go to all of the trouble of shooting four
15:55
Speaker 1: grown men, taking the bodies apart, and then going to
16:01
Speaker 1: a river and toss them in there. I think that
16:05
Speaker 1: that's a head scratcher for me, because we know, just
16:10
Speaker 1: as I said earlier, the people go fishing in rivers,
16:12
Speaker 1: People visit rivers all of the time. Why a river,
16:16
Speaker 1: why not some out of the way place to bury?
16:20
Speaker 1: Why not burn? But for some reason, the individual that
16:23
Speaker 1: did this chose to go to the Green Fork River
16:27
Speaker 1: well before we get into the river, we know that
16:30
Speaker 1: violent event police believe happened next to the second scrapyard.
16:35
Speaker 1: So my question do you is how do you kill
16:41
Speaker 1: four grown men in a shorter period of time? How
16:44
Speaker 1: do you subdue four men at once? I mean you're
16:48
Speaker 1: looking at immediacy boom boom, boom boom for the perpetrator
16:53
Speaker 1: to be able to survive this himself. It's not like
16:56
Speaker 1: you would shoot one person, wait ten or fifteen minutes
16:58
Speaker 1: and shoot somebody else. So how do you think the
17:03
Speaker 1: shootings happened? I got three things along to explore here.
17:08
Speaker 1: First off is going to be speed. Whoever did this
17:12
Speaker 1: would have had to have acted in great speed because
17:15
Speaker 1: it's you know, potentially one person that's involved in this,
17:21
Speaker 1: so they will have to be very quick with what
17:24
Speaker 1: they're going to do. And that speed is going to
17:26
Speaker 1: involve a weapon that is probably going to have a
17:30
Speaker 1: high capacity. Along with the speed, you're going to have
17:34
Speaker 1: to have a number of bullets. You know, you'll have
17:37
Speaker 1: to have potentially a lot of ammunition in the magazine. Secondly,
17:43
Speaker 1: it's going to be accuracy. You've got four guys, you know,
17:46
Speaker 1: after you drop the first guy, unless they're subdued in
17:49
Speaker 1: some way that we're not aware of yet, where they're tied,
17:52
Speaker 1: for instance, and they are immobile, maybe they're laying on
17:56
Speaker 1: the ground. Maybe he has initially subdued them in some way.
18:00
Speaker 1: Maybe he shot them in a way that didn't bring
18:02
Speaker 1: about their lives immediately, but he tied them up put
18:04
Speaker 1: them on the ground. You're going to have to be
18:07
Speaker 1: accurate with the weapon, and skilled accuracy goes to skill
18:11
Speaker 1: in this particular case, so you would have to be
18:13
Speaker 1: skilled and familiar with the weapon that you're using. And
18:17
Speaker 1: I think third, you're going to have to have a
18:20
Speaker 1: weapon unless you were a pinpoint accurate, You're going to
18:23
Speaker 1: have to have a weapon that potentially has a high
18:25
Speaker 1: muzzle velocity, something that's very powerful when you take them down.
18:29
Speaker 1: Because you can bring a smaller caliber weapon to bear,
18:33
Speaker 1: say like a twenty two rifle, but just because you
18:35
Speaker 1: hit somebody with a twenty two rifle doesn't mean that
18:38
Speaker 1: you're going to take them down. So I'm thinking maybe
18:41
Speaker 1: maybe I have no idea, but maybe something like a
18:45
Speaker 1: military platform type weapon that has potentially a high capacity
18:49
Speaker 1: magazine or another type of weapon platform that might be
18:54
Speaker 1: involved in this could in fact be something like a shotgun.
18:58
Speaker 1: Okay that Scott say, load with buckshot, where you're going
19:01
Speaker 1: to be able to maybe take out two people at
19:03
Speaker 1: one time. Who knows at this point. For all I know,
19:05
Speaker 1: we've got a perpetrator that is a world class pistol
19:09
Speaker 1: champion and they're using a nine millimeter handgun or something.
19:14
Speaker 1: We don't have quite enough information. We do know in
19:17
Speaker 1: fact that all four of these individuals were in fact shot,
19:21
Speaker 1: and in order to disable them, to kill them and
19:25
Speaker 1: get them in this specific location, you're going to have
19:28
Speaker 1: to have a lot of factors that are going to
19:30
Speaker 1: come into play at once. This is not the movies. Okay,
19:33
Speaker 1: people react to the sound of gunfire. So if you're
19:36
Speaker 1: the first guy that gets shot, there's an awareness. First off,
19:40
Speaker 1: you've heard a crack in the air. You've heard a crack.
19:43
Speaker 1: If you're one of the other guys, you see your
19:45
Speaker 1: buddy drop to the ground. Maybe he's groaning in pain.
19:48
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe he dies instantly. But there's going
19:50
Speaker 1: to be an awareness on the other three, on the
19:53
Speaker 1: parts of the other three. So what do you do
19:55
Speaker 1: at that moment time? Are you a deer in headlights?
19:58
Speaker 1: Are are you going to bolt are you going to
20:00
Speaker 1: try to run for the bushes, Are you going to
20:02
Speaker 1: try to, I don't know, just get away, hide behind something,
20:05
Speaker 1: or are you going to get down your knees and
20:06
Speaker 1: beg for your life? You know, it's hard to know
20:09
Speaker 1: what that dynamic was at that particular time. Or were
20:13
Speaker 1: they just in a position where they couldn't extricate themselves
20:17
Speaker 1: from it, they were just in a position where they
20:19
Speaker 1: were they were going to be shot and they were
20:21
Speaker 1: going to be killed, or right there in that location,
20:24
Speaker 1: because like I said, they had been restrained in some way.
20:27
Speaker 1: So we'll know a bit and more as this begins
20:31
Speaker 1: to develop and as time goes by. But I find
20:34
Speaker 1: one of the things I find very interesting about what
20:37
Speaker 1: the sheriff said, Jackie is that this is an area
20:42
Speaker 1: where a violent act took place, and I think more
20:46
Speaker 1: than likely, it's very important that we kind of try
20:48
Speaker 1: to define, well, what does a violent act mean? It
20:51
Speaker 1: would mean to me, not just the shooting, but where
20:54
Speaker 1: the dismemberment took place. At first blood, I'm thinking the
20:58
Speaker 1: same thing, And you know, what is I think, you know,
21:02
Speaker 1: I don't want to wax to philosophical here, but what
21:05
Speaker 1: is violence? You know, how do you define violence and
21:08
Speaker 1: what does that mean in this context? Because if you
21:11
Speaker 1: say in an outdoor, open area, and I'm assuming that
21:16
Speaker 1: that's what this is, I think probably the first thing
21:20
Speaker 1: that everybody's mind runs to it I can almost bet
21:23
Speaker 1: you dollars to donuts right now, is the first thing
21:26
Speaker 1: you think about is an area involving a lot of blood.
21:31
Speaker 1: A lot of blood that's going to be out there
21:34
Speaker 1: at that specific area. And maybe the ground was super saturated.
21:39
Speaker 1: Maybe it was on surface of plastic and the person
21:43
Speaker 1: didn't really the plastic. Maybe it's on leaves that have
21:46
Speaker 1: fallen and you see contact traces of blood all over
21:49
Speaker 1: the place. Maybe the ground where this event took place,
21:53
Speaker 1: the dirt itself. Maybe it's a sandy soil out there
21:56
Speaker 1: you can actually walk over and see evidence of it.
21:58
Speaker 1: You know, I've worked cases where there was no longer
22:02
Speaker 1: a body, but there was a huge there was a
22:05
Speaker 1: huge area of blood in that area. And you know,
22:08
Speaker 1: one of the things that I solved very commonly that
22:10
Speaker 1: people might not think about. I think the general public
22:14
Speaker 1: always associates the development of maggots and fly activity and
22:19
Speaker 1: that sort of thing can place on bodies. But did
22:22
Speaker 1: you know that in the absence of a body, with
22:25
Speaker 1: the presence of blood, you can have maggot activity in
22:28
Speaker 1: that area as well. I've walked out to areas where
22:31
Speaker 1: people had been killed and then removed, and there would
22:34
Speaker 1: be pools of what was blood, and of course it
22:37
Speaker 1: was turning at that point in time, and it would
22:39
Speaker 1: just be writhing with maggots, and you'd have flies buzzing
22:42
Speaker 1: all around, and the flies will develop in those areas,
22:45
Speaker 1: particularly if it's in direct sunlight. You'll have ants that
22:48
Speaker 1: are in that area. You'll have all manner of insect
22:51
Speaker 1: life in that area because what are they're seeking out
22:54
Speaker 1: while they're seeking out the protein that's contained in that blood,
22:56
Speaker 1: and so you'll have this kind of larval development that's
22:59
Speaker 1: going on there even in the absence of blood. And
23:02
Speaker 1: the reason I'm emphasizing this, and I think that this
23:04
Speaker 1: is kind of interesting, is that how did the police
23:07
Speaker 1: know that this was an area where a violent event
23:12
Speaker 1: took place? Because we kind of mentioned this early on
23:14
Speaker 1: that the bodies were found in the river. So what's
23:18
Speaker 1: going to draw them to that specific location. Was it
23:21
Speaker 1: just the sight of blood or was it the fact
23:24
Speaker 1: that you had larval development in there and you step
23:28
Speaker 1: over that area and the next thing, you know, and
23:29
Speaker 1: this is very common as well, and I've had this happen.
23:32
Speaker 1: You'll have flies that are actually, you know, in dwelling bodies,
23:37
Speaker 1: arresting on bodies, and once you show up, they begin
23:41
Speaker 1: to light on you as well. They're coming off of
23:43
Speaker 1: those bodies or off of that body and lighting on
23:45
Speaker 1: your person as an investigator. I don't think any people
23:48
Speaker 1: really realize that, and you'll have them crawling all over you.
23:51
Speaker 1: And I really wonder if maybe that had happened, or
23:54
Speaker 1: maybe it was smell that drew them over there. Because
23:56
Speaker 1: blood gives off decompositional odor, just like a body does.
24:00
Speaker 1: You can actually catch a whiff of it. I wonder
24:03
Speaker 1: if they were drawn there by smell, but something drew
24:05
Speaker 1: them there to where they recognize that something horrible had
24:08
Speaker 1: happened in that specific location. If this is indeed the
24:13
Speaker 1: location where the dismemberment took place, you have the possibility
24:17
Speaker 1: of commingling of blood. Walk me through the steps in
24:21
Speaker 1: a lab in an autopsy to be able to distinguish
24:25
Speaker 1: how many blood types or blood sources that you have. Yeah,
24:30
Speaker 1: this is a nightmare, to say the very least. Early
24:34
Speaker 1: on As an investigator, you learn that you just don't
24:37
Speaker 1: work on the assumption that something is what you think
24:42
Speaker 1: it is as a result of what you've observed with
24:45
Speaker 1: the naked eye. You cannot work on that assumption. And
24:48
Speaker 1: so just because you see a red dried spot or
24:51
Speaker 1: a red wet spot on a surface, you can think
24:54
Speaker 1: in your mind, yeah, that's blood. But would I write
24:57
Speaker 1: that in a report without confirming it. No way, no way.
25:01
Speaker 1: You never do that. So you have to be able
25:04
Speaker 1: to take blood samples from this location. They would have
25:08
Speaker 1: taken it. And this is assuming that there is blood there.
25:12
Speaker 1: You're going to take blood samples from multiple Let's say
25:16
Speaker 1: we have a huge pool of blood. I love the
25:19
Speaker 1: fact that you use the term commingle Jackie's that's fantastic
25:23
Speaker 1: because that's what's going to happen. Blood is very viscous,
25:26
Speaker 1: but it is a liquid, and so if you've got
25:28
Speaker 1: bodies that are layered on top of one another, you
25:31
Speaker 1: will have a commingling of blood, particularly if you've got
25:34
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds where you've got seepage that's going on, and
25:37
Speaker 1: then on top of that, you may have had this
25:39
Speaker 1: dismemberment activity that's going on there and you're going to
25:42
Speaker 1: generate a volume of blood associated with that. So when
25:46
Speaker 1: this blood is essentially collected from the scene, and it
25:51
Speaker 1: would be collected in a variety of different locations, multiple
25:55
Speaker 1: samples from all over this area, it will be taken
25:58
Speaker 1: out and it will be typed. Now, the type when
26:02
Speaker 1: you begin to type this blood, well, first off, you
26:04
Speaker 1: have to confirm that it's blood, and there's a variety
26:06
Speaker 1: of tests that we go through to do that. Once
26:09
Speaker 1: this unknown substance that you suspect is blood is brought
26:12
Speaker 1: back to the lab and examined, at that point in time,
26:15
Speaker 1: you're going to conduct a test at the lab to
26:21
Speaker 1: confirm that it is in fact blood. And then it's
26:24
Speaker 1: at that point in time that once you've made that determination,
26:28
Speaker 1: you're going to be able to begin the process of
26:31
Speaker 1: typing the blood. And there's major groups that we look for.
26:35
Speaker 1: We look for we look for B, we look for A,
26:40
Speaker 1: we look for A B, and so you can potentially
26:45
Speaker 1: have those groups. And if you have, say, for instance,
26:49
Speaker 1: two os, you're going to try to determine whether or
26:52
Speaker 1: not it's O positive or OH negative, okay, and you'll
26:55
Speaker 1: have this commingling that's going on and the trick is
26:57
Speaker 1: to try to separate, you know, all of these samples
27:02
Speaker 1: and see if there is I think nowadays as well,
27:05
Speaker 1: one of the things you have factor in here, is
27:07
Speaker 1: there a recoverable DNA out of that blood, Because the
27:11
Speaker 1: DNA sample that you're going to get out of that
27:14
Speaker 1: blood is going to be far more specific than just, say,
27:17
Speaker 1: for instance, a blood type. Doctor Carl Landsteiner Universe identified
27:21
Speaker 1: how to type blood, you know, back in the eighteen hundreds.
27:24
Speaker 1: It's nothing new. It's something we've been doing for a
27:27
Speaker 1: long time. It's just that it's taken a while for
27:29
Speaker 1: it to kind of develop to the point now where yeah,
27:32
Speaker 1: the blood is essentially a medium for us to get
27:35
Speaker 1: to the DNA and that's where the real tale is
27:39
Speaker 1: going to be told. The process itself is very very
27:44
Speaker 1: complicated in order to separate it out to this specific point,
27:48
Speaker 1: and you will they will in fact do blood typing
27:51
Speaker 1: tests that are very specific and react to particular types
27:55
Speaker 1: of blood, so you will get a specific indicator in
28:00
Speaker 1: this test that it is in fact a pause, a nag, pause, neeg.
28:06
Speaker 1: The trick is to go back and since you have
28:09
Speaker 1: known victims, now that you've recovered the bodies, you have
28:12
Speaker 1: to try to understand who these individuals are. If you
28:15
Speaker 1: know who they are, and you already know from an
28:18
Speaker 1: anti morm before death standpoint who they are, maybe the
28:22
Speaker 1: family or maybe the hospital will know what their blood
28:24
Speaker 1: type is. And at that point in time, once it's
28:27
Speaker 1: separated out and once you identify the individual types, that's
28:31
Speaker 1: at that point that you can then tip back to
28:34
Speaker 1: the individual bodies and hopefully you can retrieve DNA from it.
28:38
Speaker 1: Not all blood types are interchangeable. You know this from
28:43
Speaker 1: trying to give blood. There is a universal donor, but
28:46
Speaker 1: if you are at an a you can't give blood
28:49
Speaker 1: to somebody who's not. So when you retrieve a sample
28:55
Speaker 1: from the ground from a body from anywhere and it
28:59
Speaker 1: is too different blood types, What does that look like
29:03
Speaker 1: on a slide or how you look at them? Does
29:06
Speaker 1: it separate, does it blend it? What does it do? Well,
29:10
Speaker 1: it's going to be at a molecular level, and you
29:12
Speaker 1: will be able to identify by these markers that are
29:16
Speaker 1: contained on the surface of the red blood cell itself,
29:19
Speaker 1: and this is going to what's called the rh factor
29:22
Speaker 1: in the blood, and so they will present in a
29:25
Speaker 1: very particular way that is unique to that particular blood type,
29:29
Speaker 1: and that's the way you can identify them in testing
29:33
Speaker 1: in the laboratory, so to kind of pull them apart.
29:36
Speaker 1: And one of the problems with comingling of blood is
29:39
Speaker 1: that the blood itself begins to literally separate as it
29:43
Speaker 1: goes through the process of decomposition. So you'll you'll have
29:48
Speaker 1: the blood cells begin to separate away, the RBC's red
29:52
Speaker 1: blood cells, they begin to separate away from the serum,
29:55
Speaker 1: and you'll see this kind of migration that takes place.
29:58
Speaker 1: You can see it really well on a floor, like
30:00
Speaker 1: on a solid smooth floor surface. You'll see the serum
30:04
Speaker 1: that when it separates out, it's got kind of a
30:07
Speaker 1: yellow color to it, and there's a time factor that's
30:10
Speaker 1: associated with that, and a lot of people have opined
30:13
Speaker 1: that potentially, when you have exposed blood on surfaces like this,
30:17
Speaker 1: that this is a way to determine post mortem interval,
30:21
Speaker 1: but they haven't been able to kind of lock that
30:24
Speaker 1: down to the point where they can use that as
30:26
Speaker 1: a mechanism for that purpose. But once those blood cells
30:29
Speaker 1: are separated out and they are collected, it's at that
30:33
Speaker 1: point that the testing can be done and then the
30:35
Speaker 1: specific blood types by virtue of the rh factor that
30:39
Speaker 1: they're tested for. You know, where these little antigens set
30:42
Speaker 1: up on the cells themselves, you'll be able to determine
30:45
Speaker 1: what type of blood it is and from whom it originated.
31:07
Speaker 1: M y'aller would catch a glimpse out of something out
31:10
Speaker 1: of the corner of your eye, maybe when you're going
31:12
Speaker 1: down the road. You can't believe that possibly you just
31:15
Speaker 1: saw what you think you saw, or maybe just walking
31:18
Speaker 1: down the street. That's happened to me many times, and
31:21
Speaker 1: it's almost like you want to back up and confirm
31:25
Speaker 1: what your eyes saw, and your brain is saying no, no, no,
31:28
Speaker 1: no, no no, there's no way you saw that. You want
31:31
Speaker 1: to maybe hang a euey and go back and see
31:34
Speaker 1: if if that was real. For that moment, I can
31:38
Speaker 1: not begin to imagine what it would be like to
31:41
Speaker 1: be a civilian driving down the road and look over
31:44
Speaker 1: maybe the edge of the bridge and look down into
31:46
Speaker 1: that muddy water and see something that just didn't fit.
31:50
Speaker 1: And that's pretty much what happened. The bodies were discovered
31:53
Speaker 1: after someone called police saying they saw something, but we're
31:59
Speaker 1: not sure were what they saw, and they needed police
32:02
Speaker 1: to go check it out. And that's how it was
32:04
Speaker 1: discovered that these bodies were dismembered. Paint a picture for
32:08
Speaker 1: me of what that could have possibly been, Joe. It's
32:11
Speaker 1: not been released yet, but I mean, are we looking
32:15
Speaker 1: at what a bone sticking up at this point? I mean,
32:18
Speaker 1: would whatever the person saw have been skeletonized by this point,
32:22
Speaker 1: not in this shorter period of time. Maybe what they
32:26
Speaker 1: had seen may have been a bloated torso when they
32:31
Speaker 1: looked over there. Because one of the things that happens
32:33
Speaker 1: during the process of decomposition, and you know, you hear
32:37
Speaker 1: people talk about bodies being swollen, Well that's true, and
32:41
Speaker 1: they're swollen because there is a process that's called holsis
32:45
Speaker 1: that's going on in the body, and it's at a
32:47
Speaker 1: cellular level. One. Essentially, the body begins to lack of
32:51
Speaker 1: a better terminology, the body is beginning to digest itself.
32:55
Speaker 1: Well what's the product of digestion, Well, one of the
32:58
Speaker 1: products is gas, and so bodies begin to swell. And
33:04
Speaker 1: when they swell, they float and you look down and
33:08
Speaker 1: I can only imagine through my own mind's eye, you're
33:11
Speaker 1: looking into this watery area down there, and you see
33:14
Speaker 1: this kind of round, bulbous thing sticking up by the water.
33:16
Speaker 1: And I've come across bodies like this before, and you
33:20
Speaker 1: look down and you see this odd shape in the water,
33:24
Speaker 1: and maybe maybe to this person it looked like a body.
33:28
Speaker 1: They didn't know, but I do know this. They went
33:30
Speaker 1: and contacted the authorities that said, look y'all got to
33:33
Speaker 1: get down here and check this out, because it's not
33:35
Speaker 1: just one thing I'm seeing. I'm seeing several items down here.
33:38
Speaker 1: The question is, I think, what was the depth of
33:41
Speaker 1: the water of where these remains were found. Is it
33:45
Speaker 1: shallow so that maybe part of the remain was touching
33:50
Speaker 1: the bottom and then kind of sticking up. And here's
33:53
Speaker 1: another interesting kind of proposition. This is on a river,
33:57
Speaker 1: and I wonder the Grand Fork. It's like a branch
33:59
Speaker 1: of the Canadian River, and the Canadian River is a
34:02
Speaker 1: pretty sizeable river in that part of the country. And
34:05
Speaker 1: I wonder if there is a dam upstream and they
34:10
Speaker 1: had closed the dam off perhaps and the water level
34:13
Speaker 1: had dropped too, And that's something you can't really kind
34:16
Speaker 1: of plan on. And by virtue of the fact that
34:18
Speaker 1: they saw these items from a position of height looking
34:23
Speaker 1: down on it, Remember they're in a car when they
34:25
Speaker 1: see it. Maybe if the perpetrator just simply went to
34:30
Speaker 1: the bridge and tossed these items over and decided to
34:33
Speaker 1: be done with it, as opposed to say, for instance,
34:36
Speaker 1: going out into the water even further and depositing those
34:40
Speaker 1: items out there, maybe you wouldn't have seen them as readily,
34:44
Speaker 1: but it maybe it was a matter of convenience. And
34:46
Speaker 1: that can be a clue for you if you're an
34:48
Speaker 1: investigator in a case like this, because if you're in
34:52
Speaker 1: a car, maybe maybe it's late at night, maybe you've
34:55
Speaker 1: accomplished this horrible task of dismembering these bodies and you
35:00
Speaker 1: get pull up in your car or your truck and
35:02
Speaker 1: you begin to toss them out. Well, when you do that,
35:06
Speaker 1: any remnant of blood there would have been blood would
35:09
Speaker 1: transfer into the vehicle. So if you find you know
35:11
Speaker 1: we were talking about blood just a few months ago,
35:13
Speaker 1: if you have find blood that is specific to one
35:16
Speaker 1: of these victims that's in the car, you have a
35:19
Speaker 1: lot of explaining to do to the authorities. At that
35:22
Speaker 1: point in time. You know, you don't know this guy,
35:25
Speaker 1: how did his blood make it into your vehicle? And
35:27
Speaker 1: they're gonna ask you questions was your vehicle would you
35:29
Speaker 1: the entire time yesterday. Did you have the keys? Did
35:32
Speaker 1: you lend it to anybody? Because they're going to knock
35:34
Speaker 1: down all of those possibilities as far as an alibi goes.
35:38
Speaker 1: The cops are going to ask those questions and I'll
35:40
Speaker 1: expect to have answers to them. And the trick is,
35:44
Speaker 1: you have to get your hands on that vehicle as
35:46
Speaker 1: soon as you can as an investigator, so that it's
35:48
Speaker 1: not cleaned up or there's an attempt to eradicate anything
35:51
Speaker 1: in there, and then go through that vehicle to find
35:54
Speaker 1: toothcomb and find any kind of human remain that might
35:57
Speaker 1: be in there, whether it's tissue. You know, we're talking
35:59
Speaker 1: about a dismemberment here, so you can have bits of tissue,
36:02
Speaker 1: you have bits of bone, bone, dust, and of course
36:05
Speaker 1: you didn't have blood as well. The information released on
36:08
Speaker 1: the depths of these four men tell us that they
36:12
Speaker 1: were shot and dismembered. Once the bodies are recovered, how
36:18
Speaker 1: does those two facts interfere with finding out what happened?
36:24
Speaker 1: It can be a gigantic roadblock for you because most
36:29
Speaker 1: of the cases of dismemberment that I've that I've either
36:32
Speaker 1: worked or have observed as working in a morgue or
36:38
Speaker 1: certainly unseen as an investigator. They don't come off with
36:41
Speaker 1: surgical precision. The perpetrators generally cut wherever it's convenient for them,
36:49
Speaker 1: where they think they need to do it. Now, if
36:51
Speaker 1: you have somebody, and this is a real thing, if
36:55
Speaker 1: you have somebody that has a background in butchering the
37:00
Speaker 1: meat before pigs, cows, that sort of thing, they're going
37:04
Speaker 1: to know what types of instruments to show up with.
37:08
Speaker 1: But for the most part, these are not surgical cuts
37:11
Speaker 1: that are being done. There are a lot of times
37:13
Speaker 1: where you'll find, say, for instance, if somebody has been
37:16
Speaker 1: blasted with a shotgun and they are dismembered, say, for instance,
37:20
Speaker 1: they're blasting in the leg. Well, automatically, if you're the
37:23
Speaker 1: person doing the dismemberment, a goodly portion of your job
37:27
Speaker 1: at that point could have already been done for you.
37:30
Speaker 1: You're just going to have to saw through the bone.
37:32
Speaker 1: You're not going to have to cut through the legs,
37:33
Speaker 1: So it'll be a very atypical kind of incision. And
37:39
Speaker 1: also sawing that goes on in the dismemberment process, so
37:43
Speaker 1: it's going to be very randomized. And so if you
37:47
Speaker 1: have wounds bullet wounds that are tracking through the body.
37:51
Speaker 1: Let's say, for instance, you've got somebody that's shot in
37:53
Speaker 1: the back and it's tracking from say above to below
37:58
Speaker 1: and from right to left. It goes across what's called
38:01
Speaker 1: the media stynem, which is like the mid part of
38:04
Speaker 1: the body, and it exits out of the rib well,
38:08
Speaker 1: it comes in on the right rear and exits oude
38:11
Speaker 1: of the front left out of a rib cage. Then,
38:15
Speaker 1: in order for the individual to do that dissection them,
38:19
Speaker 1: I say, well, hey, I'll just I'll cut across the
38:22
Speaker 1: trunk of the body. Well, when you start to get
38:25
Speaker 1: into the trunk of the body, it's at that point
38:28
Speaker 1: in time that you've disrupted that bullet path, and so
38:31
Speaker 1: it's hard to make heads or tails out of it.
38:33
Speaker 1: And then you know, if you have individuals. One of
38:36
Speaker 1: the things that I found kind of curious over the
38:38
Speaker 1: years is that with dismemberment cases, it's amazing how many
38:42
Speaker 1: cases that we have where the heads are missing. And
38:45
Speaker 1: some people will say, well, serial killers will do that
38:47
Speaker 1: and take them as trophies. Yeah, they do. But if
38:50
Speaker 1: you have heads that have been taken off of bodies,
38:53
Speaker 1: sometimes individuals, the heads will be separated in the sense
38:57
Speaker 1: that they're dismembered or removed from the rest of the body,
39:00
Speaker 1: but they'll also get separated in disposal. So if you've
39:03
Speaker 1: got a subject that has been shot in the head,
39:06
Speaker 1: you might not be able to account for that gunshot
39:08
Speaker 1: wound that they have and that's gone. You know, it's
39:10
Speaker 1: not like it's just going to be there necessarily nestled
39:14
Speaker 1: against the rest of the remains, unless, of course their
39:16
Speaker 1: packaged together. That hearkens back to any number of cases
39:20
Speaker 1: that are out there where heads were missing off some
39:22
Speaker 1: pretty infamous cases. So you're not going to have everything
39:27
Speaker 1: in total, and of course you know that that's going
39:31
Speaker 1: to create also another problem, how in the world, how
39:36
Speaker 1: in the world do you get all of these parts
39:39
Speaker 1: back together again? When it comes to retrieving the body parts,
39:43
Speaker 1: how is it done? Each part is transported to the
39:49
Speaker 1: morgue or the coroner's office wherever the autopsy is going
39:52
Speaker 1: to be done or the body is going to be stored.
39:55
Speaker 1: But I'm confused if you want a body heart to
40:01
Speaker 1: not sweat and stay pristine. As we've talked before about
40:05
Speaker 1: bagging hands, you use paper, but body bags are plastic
40:11
Speaker 1: or rubber. What's the difference. Wow, you just made a point,
40:16
Speaker 1: Jackie that not many people pick up on. We do
40:19
Speaker 1: talk about using paper as opposed to plastic one, And
40:23
Speaker 1: isn't it interesting? And I'm not trying to diminish the dead,
40:26
Speaker 1: but what I am saying is that with a body,
40:32
Speaker 1: the deceased or the remains of the deceased are essentially
40:36
Speaker 1: the biggest piece of evidence that you have. So what
40:38
Speaker 1: do we do well? Practice has always been that you
40:43
Speaker 1: look for those points of contact that are the higher
40:47
Speaker 1: probability or harvest evidence from. So that's why we bagged
40:50
Speaker 1: the hands. Specifically, I've bagged heads before that are attached
40:54
Speaker 1: to the bodies. In this case, when you have a dismemberment,
41:00
Speaker 1: my suspicion is is that you would take a clean
41:04
Speaker 1: white sheet and you would individually wrap each dismembered portion
41:11
Speaker 1: of the body. Okay, there's no way, I mean no
41:15
Speaker 1: way at the scene that if you've got these dispersed
41:18
Speaker 1: over what would be called a field and evidence field
41:21
Speaker 1: lying on the bottom down there, there's no way at
41:24
Speaker 1: the scene that you can kind of reassemble the body
41:27
Speaker 1: out there that the conditions are not conducive to that.
41:30
Speaker 1: And like you said in Oklahoma where they have a
41:32
Speaker 1: state Medical Examiner's office. It is going to be incumbent
41:37
Speaker 1: to get all of those pieces wrapped. I don't know
41:41
Speaker 1: if they use bags paperbacks, but you would wrap them
41:45
Speaker 1: certainly in clean white sheet individually and then place them
41:48
Speaker 1: into a body bag. And that's the way it happens.
41:50
Speaker 1: And yes, they are rubberized plastic, and you would get
41:54
Speaker 1: them to the mortga as soon as you can. And
41:57
Speaker 1: it's at that point in time that you can begin
41:59
Speaker 1: to try to make a determination as to who goes
42:02
Speaker 1: with what part at that point in time, and how
42:05
Speaker 1: do you do that? Yeah, it's tough. One of the
42:08
Speaker 1: interesting things here is if we can just kind of
42:11
Speaker 1: back up a little bit, is that we know that
42:14
Speaker 1: the bodies were dismembered. Okay, that's been stated clearly, So
42:17
Speaker 1: how were they dismembered? What tool was utilized? Let's say
42:21
Speaker 1: you're talking like with a sharp edged instrument that it's
42:24
Speaker 1: more of a crushing instrument, where we're talking about a mall,
42:29
Speaker 1: which is like an axe, but it also looks like
42:32
Speaker 1: a sledgehammer on one side and an axe head on
42:35
Speaker 1: the other. Tremendous crushing injury with that way, if you
42:38
Speaker 1: slam down onto a body with a mall. You're not
42:41
Speaker 1: going to have a clean cut. As a matter of fact,
42:42
Speaker 1: You're going to crush the bone, okay, And it would
42:45
Speaker 1: be very difficult I think, at least just from the
42:48
Speaker 1: skeletal perspective, to marry that bone up with the attachment
42:53
Speaker 1: save an arm is taken away at near the shoulder,
42:57
Speaker 1: it would be hard to say, mid humorous. It would
42:59
Speaker 1: be very difficult to marry that up if it's a
43:01
Speaker 1: crushing type of instrument, whereas if you use a hack saw,
43:06
Speaker 1: it will leave specific identifying marks and it's almost like
43:09
Speaker 1: putting a puzzle together, and you have to think of
43:12
Speaker 1: it that way in the morgue, and you would take
43:13
Speaker 1: a lot of time to see if you can actually
43:16
Speaker 1: get this thing to kind of marry up with the
43:18
Speaker 1: marks that are left behind, and it would be that simple.
43:22
Speaker 1: Certainly a more scientific approach, and I suspect that they
43:25
Speaker 1: probably did this because the medical examiner in a state
43:27
Speaker 1: of alcohol is very sophisticated. I would imagine that they
43:31
Speaker 1: would do DNA sampling from each one of these remains,
43:36
Speaker 1: I mean, every single piece that has been dismembered, and
43:39
Speaker 1: they would wait for those results to come back before
43:42
Speaker 1: they actually essentially marshal all of the pieces back together
43:46
Speaker 1: again and then release the bodies to the families. You know,
43:50
Speaker 1: one thing that we did not touch on about recovery
43:54
Speaker 1: of these bodies. You know, for me, this is there's
43:57
Speaker 1: something disturbing about this. And I have to give a
44:00
Speaker 1: tip of the cap to police divers, particularly those that
44:04
Speaker 1: are skilled at crime scene underwater crime scene. When you're
44:08
Speaker 1: in a river like Grand Fork up there in Oklahoma.
44:12
Speaker 1: That river, if you go into that river, I would
44:16
Speaker 1: suspect that if you held your hand up in front
44:18
Speaker 1: of your face, you would not be able to see
44:21
Speaker 1: it six inches out. It's that muddy most of the time,
44:25
Speaker 1: and these remains are kind of floating about maybe someone
44:28
Speaker 1: we're resting on the bottom. So I guess what the
44:29
Speaker 1: divers have to do. This is a feel event where
44:35
Speaker 1: they go in there and they are going to actually
44:38
Speaker 1: feel along the bottom and maybe they're submerged and they're
44:42
Speaker 1: kind of crawling along the bottom and touching all of
44:45
Speaker 1: these spaces, and they literally have to do it with
44:47
Speaker 1: a certain amount of precision, just like we do at
44:50
Speaker 1: a crime scene. But can you imagine working a crime
44:52
Speaker 1: scene blind because that's what they're doing. They have to
44:56
Speaker 1: document each one of these dismembered remains where they rest,
45:00
Speaker 1: and I've seen them where they'll take actual and really
45:04
Speaker 1: deep water. What they'll do is they will attach these
45:06
Speaker 1: little flags that have little booies on them to float
45:09
Speaker 1: on the surface, and they'll attach them to the bottom
45:11
Speaker 1: and you'll see these flags I'll come floating out there
45:13
Speaker 1: in the water, and they'll snap a picture of that,
45:14
Speaker 1: and it gives you an idea of the kind of
45:16
Speaker 1: the disbursement pattern that's going on. And then of course
45:19
Speaker 1: they're skilled at underwater photography, but how are you going
45:21
Speaker 1: to accomplish that task when you can't see your hand
45:24
Speaker 1: in front of your face? So you know, this is
45:27
Speaker 1: in fact a crime scene and you have to document it.
45:30
Speaker 1: You have to document it carefully and try to determine
45:34
Speaker 1: where each one of these pieces rest out there. And
45:38
Speaker 1: once they're collected, of course, you know, you go through
45:40
Speaker 1: the process that we talked about getting these remains back
45:43
Speaker 1: to the State Medical Examiner's office so they can begin
45:47
Speaker 1: the process of putting them together and ultimately trying to
45:50
Speaker 1: determine what happened and when it happened. As it stands,
45:54
Speaker 1: right now, a person of interest is being questioned, but
45:59
Speaker 1: he is not considered a suspect as yet. And that
46:02
Speaker 1: man is Joe Kennedy. Again, he is a person of interest,
46:06
Speaker 1: he has not been named a suspect. I'm Joseph Scott
46:14
Speaker 1: Borger and this is bodybags.