Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Mom Says Tot Girl Oakley Carlson 'EATEN BY WOLVES'

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Mom Says Tot Girl Oakley Carlson 'EATEN BY WOLVES' · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How can a five year old,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: a little girl go missing for weeks before anyone notices?
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Why are all the documents surrounding the search for this
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: five year old little girl, at her history being kept
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: shrouded in secrecy? Where is Oakley Carlson? I'm Nancy Grace.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious x one eleven where
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: we still care about unsolved thomasides and missing people, especially children.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to this. We've asked
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: help from numerous search and rescue groups to come search
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: the entire property, which is hundreds of acres. Investigators with
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: a Grays Harbor share of Solvis as well as Washington
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: State Patrol and b FBI we're seeing searching the sprawling
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: property Wednesday afternoon. Johanson believes people within nearby communities maybe
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: just is helpful. We're hoping that somebody might have a
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: little bit of information that can shed light on the
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: location of Oakley and how she is. Johansson's investigators are
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: also trying to learn more about Bowers and Carlson, all
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: in an effort to find Oakley. If you know where
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Oakley is at Please call nine one immediately if you
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: have seen Oakley with her parents or even in other locations,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: we want to call. We want to talk to you.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: We want to know what you know so that we
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: can get as much information as we can to hopefully
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: locate Oakley safe. You're not only hearing local law enforcement,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: you are hearing our friends at King five. How did
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: this little girl go missing? The search now is honing
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: in on various areas to no avail what happened? Where
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: is Oakley? With me and All Star Pale to make
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: sense of what we know right now? But first I
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: want to go to a very special guest joining us.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: This is Oakley's foster mom, Jamie Joe Hyles. Miss Hayles,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. Thank you so much
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: for having me on the show. Nancy, Miss Hyles. I
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: find it very very I don't know the right word, moving, probative, heartbreaking,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: gut wrenching. When you discovered that we hear at crime stories,
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: we're searching, our searching for Oakley. You reached out, You
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: are looking for Oakley. You want to be heard, and
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: that tells me that this little girl was and is loved, deeply.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: I want to thank you for that. Tell me how
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: did Oakly come into your life? So I am a
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: high school teacher and one day in twenty seventeen, I
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: had a former student to text me and my husband
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: and I have struggled with infertility for about ten years,
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: and that former student knew that we wanted a child,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: and she said, hey, my hairdresser as a grand baby
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: needs a home. It's probably gonna lead to adoption. Are
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: you interested? It was a very unconventional way to become
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: a foster parent or a parent. But I just looked
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: at my husband, who was sitting next to me on
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: the couch, and I was like, let's do it. And
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: then a couple weeks later we had Oakley with us. Okay,
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: slow it now, because that sounds like I made for
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: TV movie. It does. You're in this fantastic high school teacher.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: What do you teach? So I teach like a senior
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: class on how to do job interviews and like how
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: to apply for college, and I also teach a business
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: English And out of the blue, you after trying to
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: have a child for years, you get a call that says,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: my grandmother's what hairstylists? How did it go my hairdresser's
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: grand baby needs at home. So this girl's hairdresser, I
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: guess must have been telling her when she was getting
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: her hair done, like hey, like, if you know anybody,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: and this students former student immediately thought of me and
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: my husband Eric. Well, first of all, I praised the
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: Lord in Heaven that you entered into the picture. That providence, serendipity,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: the Lord had his hand on you and you got
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: to have Oakley. But I also find it kind of weird.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: It's like somebody says, hey, my cat just had kittens,
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: you want one? Yeah, Or I've got one cat left,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: or one puppy left, you want it. It's kind of weird.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: And for the moment, wonderful that this happened and baby
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Oakley fell in your lap. You know, I'm just gonna
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: tell you, not a lot of parents, not a lot
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  Speaker 1: of adults would just take on a baby because they go, oh,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: was the mom on drugs? Was the mom drinking during pregnancy?
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  Speaker 1: Though I'm going to have these problems. You took Oakley
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  Speaker 1: with an open heart, did you not? Oh? Definitely. Can
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: you tell me about the first time you saw Oakley
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: in Parson Yeah? Yeah, So I remember we talked with
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: a friend that had taken Oakley into like the emergency care,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: because a lot of times in foster care, you might
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: go into an emergency placement just for a temporary time
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: until your place into a more like permanent situation. And
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: so the gal that had her in the emergency placement
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: situation brought her over to my house, and knowing that
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: we were going to probably get Oakle to come live
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  Speaker 1: with us, Like I knew that she was close to
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  Speaker 1: like the nine months size, or like I imagine that
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: she was close to the nine months size, And when
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: she came over the very first time, she was like
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: a very healthy, like size twenty four months baby, quite
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: a bit bigger than I was expecting. And I remember
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: just thinking, like, she is so cute and I have
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: to go buy all new clothes because I totally bought
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: the wrong clothes. And she just was so happy and
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: just I mean not not afraid of us at all
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: from day one, just beautiful, happy and just an overall
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: like easy, good, good baby. I'm just taking in everything
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: that you're saying. And how old was Oakly when you
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: got her? So I first met her at about like
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: seven months and then she came to us like on
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: the books with the state at eight months old. Tell
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  Speaker 1: me about her little personality. Oh my gosh, she was
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: such a joy. She always was smiling, She was kind,
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  Speaker 1: you know. I didn't ever have to tell her like, hey,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: you know that's not nice. We don't hit, because she
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: just if it happened once, she knew not to do
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: it again. We just were really big on kindness. And
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: I felt like she emulated that. She was funny, she
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: enjoyed making people laugh. I felt like she didn't really
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: know any strangers. I coach a dance team at the
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: high school where I teach, and she just knew all
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: of my dance team members by name. She would go
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: up to them if she came to practice with me,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: and she would ask them questions. Or she would go
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: sit with with a team as they stretched. She just
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: wasn't a stranger to anybody. Did you want to keep forever? Absolutely?
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: And the sad thing is is that, like she she
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: would tell me like, I want to stay with you forever.
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: I want to stay with you and Daddy forever. And
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: that's really hard because I would I would never have
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: talked poorly about her biological parents or anybody to her.
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  Speaker 1: But I also I did tell her, like, you know,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: you you didn't grow in my belly, but you grew
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: in my heart. So she was very aware that she
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: was not biologically mine, but that I would have loved
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: to have had her stay with us. And you know,
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: if that opportunity had come up, we absolutely would have
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: adopted her with no questions asked. You know, there's just
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: something about it. Jamie Joe hyles, Jamie Joe is, oh,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: please foster mom, and desperately, desperately wanted to keep Oakley forever,
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: you know, the other morning, and I do it to
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  Speaker 1: my son too, But just this morning, I hugged my
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: daughter so tight and was thinking, oh, I want you
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  Speaker 1: with me forever. And I've said it, but then I
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: quit saying because I don't want them to thank gee.
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  Speaker 1: I don't want them to grow up and go to
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: college and be successful and have their own life. But
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I really secretly do want them to stay with me forever,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: because there's just nothing like a mother's love. I mean,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: not discounting my husband's love. I'm sure it's wonderful of it.
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  Speaker 1: I just can't imagine anything more powerful of an earthly
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: nature than a mother's love. There's nothing like it. Just
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: did you ever feel like you were just completely in
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: love with Oakley? Oh? I felt like something weird happened
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  Speaker 1: and that she was biologically my child and I just
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  Speaker 1: like didn't even know it because the connection that we
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: had was so strong and it just was, you know,
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: obviously like I would do anything for Oakley, and I
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: still would do anything for Oakley. But you know, I
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: my love for her is undying, and there were no
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: limits or bounds or anything for her. I just am
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: so grateful that I got to even experience her time
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. What half Jamie Joe, Why isn't
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: she with you right now? How did you somehow lose
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: O's a really good question. Honestly, I know it's because
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Washington State Department of Children Using Families. I know in
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: the beginning of Oakley's case that there was a misstep
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: done by Oakley's social worker, and because something wasn't filed
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: or something wasn't said correctly, Oakley's biological mother basically got
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to appeal the decision for dependency, and this went to
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: a different court, and once it went to a different
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: court and it was overturned. That then reset the clock.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: So instead of us having this like two and a
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: half year time with Oakley, the state then started to
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: view it as the clock starting over at six months,
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  Speaker 1: and if the parents have their things together there within
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: those six months, that returned home to the biological parents begins.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the day they took oakwaya why? Oh
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: my gosh, yes, what happened? So it was the day
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  Speaker 1: after Thanksgiving in twenty nineteen, and so obviously Thanksgiving was
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: very sad for us that year because you know, we
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: knew it was a goodbye to all of our families.
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  Speaker 1: And so the day that Oakley went home, we were
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  Speaker 1: told that a driver would come by at ten am
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: and pick both Oakley and her belongings up. So, you know,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: my husband and I we just tried to have a normal,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: a normal morning with her, and obviously my husband Eric
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: and I were upset. We were kind of cheery eyed
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  Speaker 1: through most of the day, and she didn't understand why,
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  Speaker 1: even though we had tried to explain to her like
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: what was happening, but it was just very emotional. And
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: then finally, at you know, ten o'clock, the driver showed up,
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  Speaker 1: and that's, you know, just something I think I'll ever
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: forget because I hugged her so tightly. I just didn't
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: want to let her go. And then I passed her
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: to Eric, and Eric hugged her, and then I grabbed
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  Speaker 1: her again and I hugged her, and you know, of
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: course we're crying, and she's just telling me, like, grown
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  Speaker 1: ups come back, It's okay, Like it's okay. She's quoting
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Daniel Tiger to me, knowing that that's what I do
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: to her when she would get scared. And I just
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: was so sad because I just knew that this would
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: be the last time I'd ever see her. What do
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: you mean grown ups come back? There's a really amazing
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: song from the Daniel Tiger Show that Oakley just loved.
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: It's modeled after Daniel I guess Daniel Lagers neighborhood, but
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: and it is a song called grown Ups come Back.
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  Speaker 1: So when a child is anxious that maybe they're left
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: with a babysitter or like their parents stepped away for
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: a little bit and they're at daycare, there's a song
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: called grown Ups come Back. And I would always sing
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  Speaker 1: into Oakley and just remind her like I'm going to
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  Speaker 1: come back. I'll get you, like, don't worry, and that
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  Speaker 1: would kind of always calm her nerves when I was
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: leaving to go to school, or you know, if I
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: had to, like when I took her to dance class
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: for the first couple of months and left the studio,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: I would always just remind her, like, grown ups come back.
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  Speaker 1: So you know, here she is trying to use my
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: own calming technique on me and tell me, like grown
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: ups come back. It's okay, everything's okay. So it was
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: a really emotional time. And then we drove off and
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: we shut the door, and when upstairs shut her bedroom
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: door for about six or seven months, and that was
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: kind of it. Just hearing you, it makes me feel
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: sick to my stomach the thought of someone taking your
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: child and you just shut the door and try to
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: shut off that part of your life. I just take
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crime online dot com.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Oakley Carlson is just eight months old when she's placed
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: with foster parents Jamie Joe and Eric Yles. Over the
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: next two years, the little girl becomes part of the family,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: but then November twenty nineteen, Washington's Department of Children, Youth,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: and Family reunites Carlson with her biological parents, Jordan Bowers
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: and Andrew Carlson. Nine months later, Oakley is missing, but
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: no one knows. Okay, let me understand with me an
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: all star panel to make sense of what we know
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: right now. Suddenly Oakley goes missing to Stephanie Pogonis joining
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: US investigative crime reporter with Fox News Digital. Stephanie How
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: long after baby Oakley leaves her foster mom, Jamie Joe
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Hiles and is returned to her bio mom and dad
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: does she get missing? So, as we just discussed, Oakley
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: was returned to a biological family and no November twenty nineteen.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Fast forward about a year. December twenty fifth, twenty twenty
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Christmas Day, Oakley's grandparents saw Oakley and they reported that
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: she didn't look well. They say she had dark circles
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: under her eyes, pale skin, and that she had stores
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: and scratches on her face. Fast forward again to February
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. That's when someone who was close to
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: the family reports that she was last seen alive. Before this,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: investigators had thought Oakley was last seen on January twenty
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: seventh of that year, so this advanced the story about
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: a couple of weeks. Okay, hold on, she Oakley leaves
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Jamie Joe Hyles win Jamie Joe November of twenty nineteen. Okay,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: that's right, the day after Thanksgiving. And then when did
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the grandparents see her? The grandparents saw her on Christmas
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Day twenty twenty, so December twenty fifth, twenty twenty, so
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: one year later. She was pale with dark circles on
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: twenty one. Who saw her? February ten, twenty twenty one,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Someone who was associated with the family saw her, although
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: police have not specifically identified that person, and that is
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: the last person who was believed to have seen her.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Where was she when she was saying in February of
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: twenty one, Stephanie pagonies that's unclear at this time, or
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: at least police have not provided too many specifics regarding
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: that time. What happened between Thanksgiving twenty nineteen and Christmas
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty, just one year later, one year of living
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: with her bioparents, Jordan Bowers and Andrew Carlson. We may
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: never know, but I do know this. Take a listen
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: to our friend Jennifer Leott Fox thirteen under Sheriff Brad
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Johansson says, Bowers and Carlson claim they last saw Oakley
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: alive on November thirtieth. Investigators also questioned Oakley's nine year
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: old brother, who said, quote Jordan would put Oakley in
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: the closet, possibly under a stairwell, and has witnessed Jordan
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: beat Oakley with a belt and has been worried about
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: her starving. And Oakley's six year old sister said, during
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: a forensic interview with a child advocate, quote, her mother
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Jordan had told her not to talk about Oakley, she
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: had gone out into the woods and had been eaten
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: by wolves. After interviewing the parents and the children involved,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: one of the child involved as a six year old female,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: and she advised that her sister was no longer around
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: because she was eaten by wolves? Did mommy say that?
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: To Sarah Ford joining us Special Guest Legal to rect
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: to her South Carolina Victim's Assistants Network, adjunct Professor at
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Coughlin University at South Carolina State, Sarah Ford, thank you
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: for being with us. Sarah. In many codified areas of
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: the law, it should mean. What I mean by that
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: is not just case law. It's actually in the criminal
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: code children's testimony is equated and I quote, with imbeciles. I, however,
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: have found that child witnesses are some of the most
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: believable witnesses I have ever put on the stand ever,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: because they do not necessarily have the wherewithal July or
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: be as cunning as the adult human of the species.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: Did you hear what the little brother said, that Oakley
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: will be put in a closet under the stairwell, that
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: the bio mom beat Oakley with a belt, and that
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: in another interview, a six year old sister said, mom,
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: biomom Jordan Bowers told the children, don't speak of Oakley.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: She went in the woods and was eaten by wolves.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: You know what, I bet a jury would believe for
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: Sarah Ford. I bet they would too, Nancy. You know,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: for children to go into a forensic interview, you know,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: the counselor who's doing the interview is trained to talk
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: with these child not to lead them, not to guide them,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: but to let the children, um, you know, lead the discussion.
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: And for these kids to come out and say these
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: things during this forensic interview is alarming and startling and
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: completely just it's mind blowing that they have not been
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: able to gather any more evidence to actually prosecute these
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: parents for at minimum child abuse towards for Jokeley, child neglect,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: ending in obvious death hold on doctor Bethany Marshall. Right now,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: I just want to snap both the parents heads off.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I swear if I could get my hands on them,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I would try and ring there next, Jamie Joe Hyles,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: before I go to our renowned psycho analyst, doctor Bethany Marshall.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: When did you hear this fabrication that after Oakley's missing,
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: that she had gone into the wolves, gone into the
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: woods and been eaten by wolves right there in Washington.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: So on December sixth, twenty twenty one, that's when I
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: received a phone call from the Department of Children Using
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Families asking if I could take Oakley's little brother and
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: when they found Oakley, if I could also take her in,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: which of course that's an absolute yes. So I didn't
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: know that it was to this level of Oakley like
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: being missing. I thought maybe she just was like at
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: a different location or with like a friend of the family.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: DCYF never told me that Oakley was missing, and they
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: still never have told me that she was missing. I
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: was in Target the next day, December seventh, buying clothes
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: for her little brother and buying like things for Oakley. Also,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: when a friend called me and she said like, Hey,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: I'm watching you know, the court right now on YouTube
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: and Oakley's bioparents are on it and you need to
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: like watch it because they're asking where Oakley is. And
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I thought, okay, like, well we all, you know, we're
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: all wondering where Oakley is, but not to this magnitude,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: not of a missing child. And I about felt to
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: my knees and Target, Jamie Joe Hyles, I can imagine
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: you at Target falling to your knees when you realize
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: you're just not waiting for Oakley to come from her parents,
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: You're not just waiting for her to come from another
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: foster home. Nobody can find Oakley. No one can find her,
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: and the parents are being questioned about where she is.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: When did you hear that her biological mother said, oh,
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: she went in the woods and got eaten by wolves.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: When did you learn that? Why? So I believe it
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: was on December ninth. The city of Oakville held it
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: a vigil for Oakley, and it was beautiful. On the
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: way home from the vigil. I was reading the police
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: reports and news reports that were put out to the public,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: and that is where I read that line and talk
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: about a gut punch like it just made me feel sick.
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: And they knew you wanted Oakley, they knew you didn't
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: want to give her up. Who and the hay ordered
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: Oakley from you? To that I daven use the word mother.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Whose idea was that? I Before Oakley returned home, my
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: husband and I met with the social worker and her supervisor.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: They were very cold and just unwelcoming. They basically expressed
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: that she wasn't my daughter. To get over it and
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: thanks for doing what we had done, but you know,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: Oakley was going back no matter what. So when I
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: think about the bitterness that I have in this whole situation,
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: obviously I'm very angry at Oakley's biological parents for the
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: abuse that she endured. But I'm also really upset with
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Washington State Department of Children used some families, her social worker,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the supervisor, and the judge that signed off on this,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: knowing the history of domestic violence, manipulation, drug use, all
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: those things. Can I ask you a question, yes, Jamie Joe,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: do you remember their names. Yes, I do. What are
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: their names? And I just for the record, you didn't
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: volunteer this. I'm asking what are their names? I never
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: give their names out just because, like I feel like
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: if I give out their names, then people are going
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: to like go after them, like like with death threats,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: and that scares me. So I've never publicly released any
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: names of the social worker. I believe that all of
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: them are still working for the state though in Grace
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: Harbor County. Are you not giving me their names? Oh? No,
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to get in trouble you. Okay,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you know what, Jamie Joe, You're such a good person.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: You really are. You're a much better person than I am.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Because I want them fired. I don't only just want
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: them fired, them prosecuted, and I want them behind mars.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: If anybody on this panel knows the names, I would
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: like the name Sydney Jack. If you have the names,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: can you hand them to me quickly? Oh? Great? Because
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: why should that be kept secret. They tell you you're
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: not to buy a mom, you need to remember that.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what happens. She's going home to buy
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: a mom. And now I believe Oakley is dead, and
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: I believe Oakley was tortured, starved, beaten, and murdered. And
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: I don't believe in secret proceedings in not in this
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: country anyway, maybe in some third world country there is
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: no open courtroom. We're open procedures like we have here.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: But sunshine is the best detergent, and that is why
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: our founding fathers went to such great extent to ensure
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: an open court room where the public could see justice unfold.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, Jamie Joe is a much better person
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: than me, because I want to snap the heads off
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: both of these parents, and I personally want to prosecute
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: the social worker child Protection. You know, I'm doing air
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: quoties right now. And the boss that stood by and
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: let this happen to an innocent little girl, Nancy. I'm
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: actually having chills up my spine this whole story. I mean,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: there's so much to say about this story, but this
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: happened to a patient of mine, single dad. He was
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: approached to adopt his sister who had a drug problem.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: His sister kept happing baby after baby. He was approached
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: to it opped or to foster one of the babies.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: He was not really prepared or wanting to be a dad,
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: but he reluctantly took in this little baby, raised her
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: till she was three. This was in Washington State. The
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: little girl was removed ruthlessly from him and returned back
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: to his sister's household. When she cleaned up temporarily, she
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: went back on drugs, went into a group home, took
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: the little girl with her, and every time he visited
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: his daughter, she had deteriorated and deteriorated and deteriorated, and
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: his mental health deteriorated too, because he saw his daughter
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: deteriorating under somebody else's care. This was Washington State. I
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: covered I followed this case for years, and it was
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: so heartbreaking. You know the fact that that Oakley was
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: working so hard as a little girl to understand that
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: she didn't come from mommy's tommy, but she came from
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: mommy's heart, and she had a life and she had friends,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: and then she's returned to biom hell almost as a
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: meal ticket. She's used as a meal ticket. Nancy. Did
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: you see the pictures of her parents, the mugshots. Her
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: dad has sores all over his face. He's a mathematic
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: This is not a family who's fit to take care
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: of children. She was just a meal ticket to them.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: She was away to get benefits from the state and
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that's it. She was used. And I guarantee you a
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: close inspection would reveal that Oakley was missing and the parents,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: the bioparents, kept getting benefits for the child. Guys, take
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at crime online dot com.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: The last confirmed signing of Oakley Carlson is in February
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, but the little girl isn't reported missing
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: until December twenty twenty one. That's when a fire or
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: damages the family's home, forcing them to relocate. A local
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: school principal gets concerned after talking with one of Oakley's siblings.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Oakley's six year old sister tells the principal's daughter Oakley
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: is no more, that she had gone into the woods
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: and had been eaten by wolves. The little girl has
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: also been reportedly told by her mother, Jordan Bowers, to
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: not talk about Oakley. On December sixth, Oakley's fifth birthday,
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: police are sent out to do a welfare check. Okay,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: let me understand this. Joining me is Stephanie Pogonis, investigative
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: reporter at Fox News Digital. So Oakley is saying fib
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Fast forward about ten months. The little
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: girl is not reported missing until December twenty twenty one,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: and that is when fire damages forced the family to relocate,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: and when they do, outcomes the story that Oakley has
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: been eaten by wolves. So for all that time period,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: nearly a year, her bioparents don't report her missing. That's correct.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: In fact, Oakley's father, Andrew does not actually report her
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: missing until after police prod him for information, and at
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: that time he makes limited statements, including to the effect
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: that Oakley is either dead or not coming back for
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: a reunion. According to court documents, who said that Stephanie,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: that was Andrew Carlton. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. That
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: is the bio dad joining me right now. Special guest
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: forensic expert, lecturer University Florida and host of a hit
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: series Shattered, sold podcasts and you can find it on
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: all sorts of plat forms. You can find her at
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Karen's Forensic or at bare Bones Forensic dot com. Karen
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: al Smith Karen, this is a forensic nightmare because where
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Oakley was being I'm just going to say, held away
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: from her foster mom, that loved her, that took care
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: of her, that wanted her, that got gut punched when
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: she was taken away. She was in this hell hole
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: with bioparents who I believe were high on meth, that
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: Abbie's tortures, starved and murdered her there, I said it,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: So how are we going to prove it? What possible
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: forensic evidence is there? After the hume was burned to
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: an extent, then they had to relocate, right and there
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: are forensic aspects of this that I questioned Nancy. In
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: December of twenty twenty one, there was a fire at
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the bioparents' house they relocated. Now in pursuit of evidence,
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the police did a surt took that house, and I quote,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: there was also blood spatter on the blinds near the
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: front door, on the front door, and a handprint on
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: the wall in the downstairs hallway. This is really concerning
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: was there enough blood there to be indicative of foul play?
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Spatter is a term that's used when there's some type
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: of force behind that blood. So the next question to
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: answer is what may have caused that spatter pattern? Could
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: any conclusions or even a hypothesis be formed based on
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: what they saw and how much blood spatter was there.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Was that handprint that they saw in blood? Did they
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: recover it or process it to make an identification? Could
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the size of that handprint help to eliminate the adults
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: or the children in the household? Was DNA testing completed
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: on that blood? Was the lab able to determine if
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: that blood was oh Glease or another family member? It
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: would sort of glossed over, And to me as a
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: forensic analyst, that's key to this whole thing. Based on
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: what I've heard, based on what you called a hellhole
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: that she was living in, this is so indicative of
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: so many cases that I covered, Nancy. It's like textbook
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: and it's breaking my heart to know something happened in
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: that house. Do I think the fire was convenient? Possibly
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: possibly to cover up evidence? Yes? Okay, hold on, you're
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: giving me so much incredible information and this would be
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: what is needed to prove a case in court. Let's
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: start again, if you don't mind for those that are
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: not forensics experts like you, Karenel Smith, Let's talk again
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: about the blood evidence. Repeat, right, So, the detectives did
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: an initial search of the house after the fire, and
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: there is in quotes. There was also blood spatter on
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: the blind near the front door, on the front door,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: and a handprint on the wall and the downstairs hallways.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: There's no more information about that. That was glossed over
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: in the reports. Well, to me, that's key when you
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: have spatter spatter blood is when it's liquid, if it's impacted,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: if there's a force behind it, it leaves a pattern
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: called spatter. But without any more information, I don't know
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: how much there was. What were the size of the droplet,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: that's indicate that's indicative of how much force was behind it.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: The smaller the droplets, the more force. How much was there?
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: Was it located near the floor in the middle of
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: the room? Was it at the height of God forbid
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: a child? Where was it? The handprint? Was the handprint
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: processed with powder? Was it? Was it something other than
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: blood or was this handprint in blood? And how was
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: it processed? Whose handprint was it? Were there any rich
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: detail parts that that could be identified to a specific person.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: These are forensic leads, but they were bred flags to me.
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: Who left the blood? How did it get there? Was
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: there an implement found? Was there any other search of
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: the health What were the conclusions, if any another issue?
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith is of course you're looking at it from
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: a forensic point of view, but I'm looking at it
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: also from a circumstantial evidence point of view. For so
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: long Oakley did not come out to the bus stop,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: the school bus finally just quit come and quit stopping. Now,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: if a school bus driver knows the little girl is
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: no longer coming to school, that means a school system
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: knows something. But yet that was never communicated that this
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: child just seemingly disappeared. What about it? Stephanie Baguon is
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: joining US crime reporter Fox needs digital What about that? Absolutely, Nancy,
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: And in fact I want to flag that this is
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: not the first time someone who's even mentioned this to DCYF.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: In fact, her foster parents herself wrote a letter Toys
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: in which Jamie Joe Hiles stated, quote, I am writing
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: you to document that if something is to happen to
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: those children, and I have tried multiple times to help them,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: at CPS and DCYS are at fault and will not
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: only be in huge legal trouble, but the public relations
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: fallout of not protecting no string will be massive quote,
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut for our friends at
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Fox thirteen. Everybody's in grief. Everybody's struggling a little bit
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: with just trying to hold out hope for a good outcome.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: The superintendent of Oakville School District says Oakley's sister is
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: friends with their principal's daughter. The principal says the sister
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: became upset when Oakley was mentioned and said there is
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: no more Oakley. When she was starting to hear some
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: of those buzzy type words or those those things that
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: were that make you as an educator pause, She did
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: exactly what she was supposed to, and she followed the protocol.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: And first thing Monday morning, they got ahold of the
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: proper authority, and then the walls started rolling, and that's
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: that's how this kind of all came about. Court documents
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: also revealed that Bowers and Carlson initially lied to police,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: saying she was with Carlson's parents. Oakley's grandmother told investigators
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: the last time she saw Oakley was in December of
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty, and said, quote, Oakley didn't look well. Oakley
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: had dark circles under her eyes, pale skin, and she
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: had scratches or sores on her face. Isn't it true,
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: Stephanie paganis at the parents where they had been living,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: were out in a very rural area. Her body could
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: be anywhere. Yes, not only is the very rural, but
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: it is heavily wooded, to the point where police officials
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: have said it might not even be easy to spot
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Oakley's remains in such heavy wooded thrush takes our cut three,
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: our friend Jennifer Lee. This whole investigation launched after Oakley's
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: six year old sister told her friend's mom that quote,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Oakley is no more. Court documents say Jordan Bowers was enraged,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: yelling and clenching her fists when cops pressed her for
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: answers about the well being of her daughter, Oakley Carlson.
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: That was on Sunday. Now days later, Bowers and dad
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Andrew Carlson are behind bars and now facing an abandonment
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: charge for feeling to give prescribed medication to Oakley's sister,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: who is six years old and blind. How could this happen?
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: And of course chop protective services once again beyond the
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: reach of the law. But the public knows, the public knows,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: we know something horrible has happened. Take a listen to
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: our cut nine. This is Drew Michelson at King five.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Before seeing the judge, Jordan Bowers had to face a
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: crowd headed up by Jamie Joe Hines, former foster mother
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: of Oakley Carlson, Bowers's daughter, who hasn't been seen since
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: February twenty one. That's a vindication I can get. Unfortunately,
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: in this situation right now, all I can do is
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: just make eye contact with her and hope that she
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: knows that we're here and we're not going anywhere. Bowers
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: came to court on child and endangerment charges. She's accused
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: of crimes linked to her other two children. The chaildren
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: were exposed to drugs while the children were under their care.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: Absolutely and they really ingested them, potentially ingested them. Yeah.
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: Last month, Oakley's father, Andrew Carlson, pleaded guilty to the
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: same charges. He got a year. Bowers also pleaded guilty,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: and since she has prior convictions, she got the maximum
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: of twenty months. She chose not to speak to the court.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: Familiar detectives say Oakley's parents haven't spoken to them either
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: about what happened to the five year old, but no
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: charges have been filed and her disappearance to Jamie Joe
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Hile's Oakley's foster mom, what is your message right now? Well,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: I would love for Jordan and Andrew to know that
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: have fun with life after you are released from jail
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: in prison, because it's not going to be easy for
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: you and for the rest of your life like we
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: will follow you and we will find where Oakley is.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: For anybody else, my message is just if you know
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: anything about Oakley, if you know, if you hear something,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: if you know anything, please talk. Talk to crimestoppers, call
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: the Grays Harbor County Sheriff's Department, anything with any information.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Your your tip could be the missing puzzle piece that
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: we're looking for. The number on the starts for Oakley
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: is three six zero five three three eight seven six
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: five repeat three six zero five three three eight seven
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: six five, or use the p three tips app on
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: your smartphone. We wait as justice involves Nancy Grace crob
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: Stories signing off, good bye friend,