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Katie Woolf spoke with Minister for Health Natasha Fyles · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Let's get right into it. Joining us on the line
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: right now is the Health Minister Natasha Files.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Good morning from morning Katy, good morning.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Listen it now, Minister. Firstly, let's get an update on
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the air. A few of games. It's been canceled, well
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: for the next next round at least you decided to
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: pull the pin given the fact that there's so much
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: uncertainty at this point.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Oh, Katie, For me, it's incredibly disappointing. I was able
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: to compete as a teenager, I helped manage sports and
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: was really proud to be the Minister for the Games
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: in twenty nineteen, so it's incredibly disappointing. But in light
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: of the continuing uncertainty around the COVID nineteen pandemic, we
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: have made a decision that the games won't go ahead.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: And Katie, this is intended into the future, not just
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: the twenty twenty three We'd already deferred the twenty twenty
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: one game. And the basis of the games is so
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: much work, particularly with our near neighbors in Southeast Asia,
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: and that just can't be undertaken in a way that
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: it used to be. And even going forward, I think
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: there'll be changes around that so incredibly disappointing, and we'd
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: just like to thank everyone that's been involved in the games.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: I've been trying to contact some of those key people
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: this morning, and particularly all those sport organizers and the
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: sports that put so much energy into the games.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: So no games for twenty twenty three, I mean, does
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: this really spell the end of the ARA? A few
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: are games? So are you still confident that at some
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: point you might be able to bring them back?
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: No, Katie, for me, this spells the end of the
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: ARA if you're are games in the sense that we
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: just don't know as we move hopefully into a post
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: COVID space, what travel will be like. The are a
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: few are games? As I was just saying, we do
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: so much work with our Southeast Asian neighbors and we're
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: going to have to find a different way to do that.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: So these large multi event sports, I don't see that
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: that you know for us the ARA, if you're a game,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: we just felt that with COVID and it's continuing impact,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: it just wasn't possible to deliver the games in the
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: way that we wish for them to be. A six there.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of people that didn't
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: feel that it was economically viable or that it was
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: a good thing really for the economy. We know that
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: there was certainly a lot of goodness that came out
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: of it when it comes to sport and the development
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: of sport around the territory. But is COVID really just
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: a bit of an excuse here that realistically it wasn't
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: going to be economically viable to return Regardless.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: To Katie, we did work and there was a strong
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: economic return on the investment made. It also helped us
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: build our relationships. But with COVID and the overlay of
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: COVID that we're going to have, you know, into the future,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: even when we're fascinated and we're traveling internationally, it's going
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: to be a different way in which we deliver things.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: But I'm very much committed to events. I believe that
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: events do bring tourism and they also provide opportunities for
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: locals and particularly sporting events. But there's the future of
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: there a few of games in the way that they were,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: we just don't see it as feasible going forward.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Okay, Minister, I do want to ask about just moving
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: forward in terms of COVID. The situation in New South
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Wales Regional New South Wales at this point is it
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: going to be declared a hot spot.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: So we had a meeting of SEMSE and our Chief
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: Holes Officer and I just like to acknowledge how hard
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: the health team are working. They worked through the weekends.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: They provided us with a briefing yesterday. We haven't added
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Regional New South Wales, but we do wurge Territorius. If
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: you are in Regional New South Wales, now is the
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: time to come home. We've seen yesterday one hundred and
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: twelve new cases in Greater Sydney, but the show has
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: not declared Regional New South Wales a hotspot, and that's
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: based on the fact that there isn't any cases in
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: regional exposure sites and the wastewater signals in Regional New
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: South Wales have been negative to date, but they're watching
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: that very closely.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I do note that the governments sort of changed the
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: way that they're messaging with some of this stuff to
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: do with COVID, particularly in other states where we are
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: seeing increased numbers. Like we've just heard you say there,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: if you are a territorium that is interstate in Regional
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  Speaker 1: New South Wales look at coming back? Are you changing
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: that tact in an effort to sort of give people
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: a bit more time to get home rather than them
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: sort of getting on a plane and finding out while
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: they're up in the air or getting literally on that
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: plane or getting off that they're going to have to
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: go into quarantine.
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  Speaker 2: So, Katie, the new delta variant has added another layer
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: of complexity to coronavirus and so for us, things have
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: to move very quickly with this delta variant. So we
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: want people to clearly understand that there is a significant
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: situation in Sydney Metropolitan and that we're watching those regional
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: areas very closely, and that if we have to call it,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: we won't hesitate to make that decision quickly. We're also
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: watching Victoria. There's been three locally acquired cases in Victoria.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: So the show will again today get information from HPBC
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: and Victoria so that we can make those decisions to
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: keep territory in.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Day Minister, one of the questions that we continually get
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: asked here at the station is when is there going
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: to be more vaccine appointments available?
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: So Katie, I've been working with the Department of Helston
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: I'm hopeful that by the end of this week we
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: can announce more appointments. We've seen the information come through
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: on our predicted plugs from the Commonwealth, and the department's
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: been doing the modeling and working to make sure that
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: we allocate those appointments as well as the second vaccinations,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: and so we did. As you know, and I've spoken
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: to you, we put those appointments up just a week
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: or so ago. But we're hopeful by the end of
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: the week there'll be more appointments and we'll certainly let
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: territorians know we're also working on a longer term plan.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: The Commonwealth have been able to provide more certainty around
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: their projected number of vaccines coming into Australia, which can
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: help us in our planning.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Okay, But so by the end of the week, hopefully
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: there will be more appointments available for territorians.
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: I'm hopeful that we'll have those appointments loaded. As I explained,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: we did put up nearly two thousand appointments just a
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: week or so ago, but we did have to allocate
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: a number to people that were booked in that fifty
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: to fifty nine age group for Astra Zenica that needed
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: to go across to father, so I know that plenty
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: of people are still getting vaccinated. It's great to see
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: on social media, particularly people sharing that they're vaccinated, because
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: that is the message. We only need to roll up
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: our fleeve or arm ourselves. As a Commonwealth governor, saying.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: Kinnister, we have received a few emails over the course
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: of the weekend about our church here in Darwin discouraging
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: people from wearing masks and also discouraging people from being vaccinated.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: Is this something that you've been made aware of.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Yes, Katie, it is concerning The commonly used language is
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: anti vaxes, anti vaxx message. The vaccination is our key
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: to stepping forward out of this pandemic situation. It will
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: protect us, that will protect our loved ones. And so
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: we are working closely, Katie, and we're making sure that
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: we're pivoting our messaging to targeting different groups who might
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: be anxious. I can understand the vaccine was developed very quickly,
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: but it's still been through the robust processes and it
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: is safe. I'm vaccinated, my parents have had their vaccination.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: So we need people to understand that the vaccination, you
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: can still become ill. With COVID nineteen, but you won't
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: become as catastrophically ill as what we're seeing, particularly in
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: New South Wales, numbers climbing every day and people ending
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: up in hospital and intensive care.
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: Now, yesterday, you know, we saw a situation where the
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: NRL is to is having to investigate the NRL here
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: in the territory is having to investigate one of the
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: football clubs that allegedly broke some of the rules and
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: restrictions that were in place when we were in lockdown
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: and when we had those restrictions that were still needing
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: to be adhered to. There are claims that are being
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: sent to me at the moment that not only did
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  Speaker 1: we have a situation where the church here in Darwin,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: one of these churches was discouraging people from getting the vaccine,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: but they were being discouraged to wear those masks during
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: that period of time when it was something that we
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: were all supposed to be doing. Is that something that
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: the police are investigating.
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: To Katie, I'm not aware if there's a specific police
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: investigation into that matter, but police do put in place
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: the enforcement. They can review evidence, photographs for example, and
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: go back and there is significant fines and we saw
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: that last week with a local business who didn't want
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: to adhere to the rules. We try the educative approach,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: but if that doesn't work, police won't hesitate to step
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: in and find individuals or businesses or community groups that
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: are doing the wrong things.
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: All right, The Chief Minister yesterday confirmed at a press
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: conference that those numbers aren't where we'd anticipated. When it
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: comes to those international repatriation flights, are flights arriving in
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: Darwin at the moment that are full or are they
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: half full? What's ago with these international flights?
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: So, Katie, we're seeing a regular arrival of international appatriation flights.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: The depat Commonwealth Government organize the individuals for those flights,
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: but we do certainly see in some cases where those
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: flights aren't full. So we did with the India fights
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: spertifically specifically have a reduction because we had seen those
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: high rates of COVID. They have listed those numbers, but
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: people are tested in the periods leading up to the flight,
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: and so that could be a reason why people aren't
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: allowed to travel at the last minute and then so
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: there is logistics of people getting to those destinations. But
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: Jifat are working through. We've seen a tranch of flights
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: come out of London Frankfort, Paris for example. DEFAT are
• 9:11
  Speaker 2: now looking at other locations where Australians may be stranded,
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: and it's very difficult for them to get from a
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: specific location to where those flights are leaving from. So
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: can we take those flights closer to them? But yes,
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: you do see the flights not always full.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Are those flights going through the international Airport?
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: Are they still going through the.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: RAF part, Katie, My understanding is they're still going through
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: the wrath side. We are aiming to take them through
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: the Darwen International Airport terminal, but there has to be
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: those rectifications and we also need that signed off by
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: Health before we take them through and make that change.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: So when are you anticipating that will be My understanding, Katie,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: is a couple of weeks ago.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: They had said about six to eight weeks. So I'm
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: happy to get some more specific information, but I can
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: assure the community that there was a number of health
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: reciplications that needed to be made and we won't be
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: making that change until we've been fully audited. That it
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: stays to shift that across.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: All right, minister onto an issue which just isn't going
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: away the grandstand. We know the opposition leader Leofanocchiaro was
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: on the show yesterday and said Michael Gunner has repeatedly
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: stated that he is the chair of Cabinet and he
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: takes responsibility. She reckons these words are hollow garbage and
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: that he's not taking responsibility, that he's hiding behind cabinet
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: confidentiality to avoid taking responsibility for this dodgy deal. She
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: goes on to say, it's not only implausible that he
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: didn't know that the proper cabinet process hadn't applied, it's
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: downright impossible he didn't know on the information I have
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: before me. Now. She goes on to say that if
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Michael Gunner disagrees with IKAC and claims that the proper
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: cabinet process was followed, no one's going to believe him.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: She reckons that he needs to release the try Treasury analysis,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: including the time and date that each department was given
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: an opportunity to provide comment on the cabinet submission and
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: what their response was. Is the government going to release
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: the Treasury analysis?
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: To Katie, we've seen an investigation and the icac's main recommendations.
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: There was no finding against the government or any minister.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: But they couldn't look into that cabinet decision, like they
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: couldn't look into what had happened when it comes to
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: the cabinet making that decision. So you've got to admit
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: that there is a huge chunk that's missing here.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: So, Katie, a capital grant was awarded. Is not uncommon
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: for capital grants to be awarded for infrastructure projects, to
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: community groups, to supporting organizations in the territory. But we
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: acknowledged at the time nearly two years ago, that the
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: process didn't meet the expectations of public had of us,
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: and we've began implementing a range of changes. There's also
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: recommendations from the ICAC that we're working to implement.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: So why not why not release the treasury analysis?
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: So, Katie, the ICAC made no finding against the government
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: or any minister. So I think that you know their
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: hollow words coming from the CLP who refused to put
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: in place in I caack it took a labor government.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: People like, can't you see them? I mean, at the
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: end of the day, they may well have done that,
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: but right now you guys are in a situation where
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I've got to tell you most of the community doesn't
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: actually believe that the Chief Minister knew nothing about it.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: So wouldn't it actually be a wise thing to do
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: to release that Treasury analysis and you know, make it
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: all nice and clear, so the community's got a fair
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: idea of exactly what's gone on.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: To Katie, there has been a thorough investigation by the KAK.
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: They made no finding against the government or the minister,
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: and we're waiting to implement the recommendations was agreed in
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: principle to support that the attack have made all right.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: On Friday we learned the Turf Club will spill the
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: board on August nine. I believe an interim chair is
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: in place. Does this go far enough for you as
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: the Racing Minister.
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: We need those Turf Club board members to resign now
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: so that we can have confidence that these measures will
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: be put in place immediately, and that we can have
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: confidence in the Churf Club the racing industry. We spoke
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: about this on Friday, Katie. You know there is really
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: good people involved in the industry and the Churf Club
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: board members all need to resign so that we can
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: have confidence going forward.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: So as we know two existing board members mister Dale Baccino,
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: who I believe was not on the board when the
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: decision around the grandstand was made, but mister Damian Moriarty,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: they are going to be staying on the board. Mister
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: O'Sullivan said it was necessary to have a core functioning
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: board leading up to the August nine Special General Meeting
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: and through to the Darwin Cup Carnival. As I said,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: my understanding is that mister Bacino wasn't on the board
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: when that development process happened, but Damian Moriarty will remain
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: on the board despite a finding of improper conduct by
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: the IKAK. Do you think that it's appropriate for mister
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: Moriarty to stay on the board taking that into account.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: No, So, Katie, we've made it quite clear our expectations.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: We are recovering the twelve minus dollars from the Turf
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Club we were lied to we when the Department of
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Business went in and asked questions, and we need the
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: resignation of the entire board so that we can move
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: forward from this situation.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Now the Chief Minister has said that he'd changed that legislation.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: If the board didn't resigned resigned. Do you think that
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: that now needs to happen when Parliament sits again.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: So Katie, we haven't ruled that out. We still have
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: a few weeks ahead of the August sittings. We need
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: all members of the Dolen Turf Club board to resign.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: So at this point, what you're saying, by the sounds
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: of it pretty clearly is that you reckon those other
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: two need to resign as well.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, Katie, we've given in principal support for the eighteen
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: recommendations from the KA, noting that some are already being implemented.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: We are taking steps to recover that twelve million dollars
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: and we need every board member to resign from the
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: Down Turf Club board.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: So at this point in time, I know that you
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: had told me last week that you would be waiting
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: to see what the Turf Club, what decisions were made
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: around the board as to whether you would be attending
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: any Dar and Cup carnival events. Are you going to
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: be attending any of them based on the announcement that
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: was made on Friday?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: So, Katie, there is, as I said, so many people
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: in racing that need support, and as a Minister for racing.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: I want to get out there and support them, but
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: I can't in good faith. While there is current Turf
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Club members who haven't resigned attend those events, so I'm
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: hoping that they will resign and then we can all
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: start to move forward.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Is there one of those parliamentary receptions that usually happens
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: for the dough and Cup carnival? Is that happening this.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Year, Katie, I'm not aware of that detail. I'm happy
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: to chase that up.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'd be interested. I would have thought that
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: if there was one happening that you, as the Racing Minister,
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: would be invited or aware of it.
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: I think it's typically been hosted by the Chief Minister
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: and that's going right back to Paul Henders, them, Adam Gilds, etc.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: But I'd be happy to chase that up for you.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: All right, Minister, we are going to leave it there.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Always appreciate your time. Thanks, thanks so much for having
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: a chat with us.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Thanks Katie.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: That is the Minister for Health. There also the Minister
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: for Racing, Gaming and Licensing and major events and plenty
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: of other things.