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Starting a Fairytale · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast,
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Okay. So the next week in therapy, we talked about what trauma was, which she said was when we are growing up, so in memory time, which you guys, I literally had to write that in parentheses. Because right now I am telling you, for whatever reason or because of everything the last year or whatever, there's no time for us. We are having zero sense of time between yesterday or tomorrow or right now. It's all a blur.
• 1:36
  Because the anchors that we learn to anchor memory time and now time and discern the difference, you guys, those were taken away. And it is one of the ways our whole system has collapsed because the ways we were depending on that were taken. And so we when we lost that, we have not been able to rebuild it yet. So even writing this on the page as part of rebuilding it, I literally had to put it in parentheses. So let me start over.
• 2:07
  Trauma. When we are growing up unsafe or in unpredictable environments, parentheses, memory time. So when we're growing up in unsafe or unpredictable environments, what happens is the top of our brain initiates a fear response. You guys, that's our cortex, like on the top of your head, the back of the top of your head. The cortex.
• 2:33
  The top of our brain initiates a fear response when we are growing up unsafe or in unpredictable environments. So when our cortex initiates that fear response and when trauma is ongoing, developmental, or caused by our caregivers, then we get stuck and our body keeps that trauma response switched on so that our amygdala, which is like in the lower middle of your brain, it works as a warning bell. Right? So when we get stuck because of ongoing or developmental trauma that's caused by our caregivers, our amygdala becomes hyperaware. And what that means is that now, in now time, we start seeing danger where there isn't any danger, and our brain responds to that perceived danger with the fight or flight or freeze or fun.
• 3:46
  You guys, this is one of the areas where we just feel flipping crazy because it feels like danger even when the times are that we cognitively know that it's not. I cannot talk my way through it. I cannot logically respond to you telling me that it's danger. Like, it doesn't work because my amygdala is telling my brain that it is and my cortex is not even online anymore. Does that make sense?
• 4:20
  That's why talking is not enough. You can't just hope for the best or that's why positivity becomes toxic because the part of your brain that that can help when positivity in an appropriate context can be very helpful, when you're in a trauma response, that part of your brain is not even online. So, yes, it makes me feel crazy, but it also makes so much sense that understanding this, understanding how the brain works is literally what lets me off the hook from shame. Do you see that? Because understanding that my brain is doing exactly what it's supposed to do in response to trauma means I have not failed.
• 5:09
  I've not messed something up. I'm not crazy. I'm not doing it wrong. My brain is doing exactly what it is supposed to do based on what it has endured. And then you guys, for just a split second, even if I can't hold on to it very long, I could say, even through what I have endured.
• 5:35
  And that's huge. So in therapy, we talked about how an emotional flashback feels like childhood, is your body responding to that feeling the way it had to when you were little and could not protect yourself. And then your brain is now responding in now time to the danger from memory time. So, you guys, this is a whole new layer for us. Because in the past, we knew that memory time could invade now time.
• 6:09
  But what we understand now also, both are true, that my brain responds in now time to the danger from memory time. So our homework was to start asking ourselves, did anything actually change around me? What do the facts show me? Number two, or did only my mind change? Is it my perception, or is it the meaning that I am giving to what is happening?
• 6:46
  Like, can I talk my brain through what is real and not real? Number three, what oh, you guys, this one hurts. It steps all over my toes. What scary stories am I telling myself that made it feel true inside? But number four, what is actually true right now, right here, in now time.
• 7:14
  So in doing that, we talked about flight, fight, freeze, and fun, and how different parts of the system may respond in different ways. Like, so not all of us inside are gonna respond with the same responses, which I had never thought about before. Like, it seems super obvious, but I had never thought of this, you guys. And then some parts of the system may respond naturally in ways that scare other parts. So, you guys, that's another thing I had never thought about.
• 7:44
  Maybe you already know this. But some people inside can respond in patterns that actually trigger others. And I think that's been part of what's happening with us over the last year when Courtney's responding with a fight response and we have others inside who are in flight or freeze and no longer even have opportunity for fun because everyone outside of us has scattered because they're afraid of Courtney or think Courtney doesn't want them or whatever their issues are that we have triggered their issues. So now all the stability we had is lost because we're triggered, insiders are triggered differently than other insiders are triggered, and now our external people are also triggered and it's a whole meltdown of a mess, which felt like our world was not safe anymore, which is why it felt so dangerous and it almost cost our life. And now we can see it.
• 8:46
  We can understand it, which means we can get better. And then the other more obvious piece, but just to be super explicit with everything, some parts may not be co conscious, like aware of others, and or may not understand their trauma response patterns. So some examples would be flight would be running away, avoiding, not responding, or disappearing. Yeah, check, check, check. Fight would be trying too hard, winning at words, or actual physical fighting.
• 9:24
  Freeze would be shut down, can't move, can't talk, can't respond, can't think. Check, check, check, check. Fawning would be people pleasing, over apologizing, proving our worth, overdoing it for others. Oh my goodness, you guys. I hate therapy.
• 9:43
  So then our homework that week was to pay attention to these patterns and notice what happened before we chose that response, what response we chose and what it looked like, and which F it was, flight, fight, freeze, or fawn. Does that make sense? That was intense. So then the next week in therapy, we learned about top down, bottom up, which people say all the time if you go to conferences, but you have to learn what it means. So if you think about your brain, right, the top of your brain is the cortex.
• 10:21
  The middle of your brain is the limbic system where the amygdala is that is like the warning bell. And then the bottom of your brain is like, the reptilian brain or or, like, the lizard brain depending on what you read. Right? And then the three chemicals that sort of regulate these are the norepinephrine, dopamine, and serotonin. Those are the neural pathways that regulate those.
• 10:46
  So when we are triggered or really upset or have big feelings, that means we are dysregulated. And my therapist who died of COVID said, remember, she said that anything that knocks us off balance counts as dysregulated. It doesn't have to be that you're really upset, and it doesn't have to be big feelings. It can just be you're shaken for a minute or you feel off balance or you feel fuzzy or foggy. Anything where you are not grounded and centered means you are dysregulated, which you guys, that's really a startling thought to think about, to consider, because it means we're dysregulated most of the time, which means we have a lot of work to do.
• 11:36
  And so we have been very conscious the last two months of this, since this, to notice our bodies when we are regulated, when we are dysregulated. We can't always stop it, and we can't even always fix it. But the more that we notice, the more we are able to intervene on our own behalf. And the way you intervene is top down and bottom up. So top down is regulating your brain through your cortex down.
• 12:07
  That's why they say top down, And that is language based. So therapy, talking it out with a friend or your therapist or someone supportive. And then bottom up is starting with that reptilian brain. And the reason is because it was developed first even in the womb. And the first thing that it recognized even in the womb was the rhythm of the heartbeats, both yours and your mother's.
• 12:36
  And so that's why things like square breathing helps, the heart rate and body and organs. So you can look up YouTube or on your phone, sounds of heartbeats, any kind of repetitive rhythms, even if it's music, which is part of what works with mindful movement, drumming, swaying your body, rocking or swinging or in the hammock, padding on your body somewhere safe like your hands or your arms or on your knees or your shoulders, wherever you want to, but padding in a rhythm. A warm rice bag, you can heat those up in the microwave. Standing up or sitting down or tapping with a spoon or a pencil or a pen or something, all of those things, those kinds of movements are ways of regulating your system. So then the next week, after practicing all that, one of the things we talked about the next week was about this whole thing of, like, where time has completely stopped existing in a way unlike ever before.
• 13:43
  I feel like in the past, we had a perception, at least on the inside, that some of us had different jobs on the outside in now time, and some of us were stuck in memory time. Okay. That's a very brief synopsis in overstereotyping. But generally, if you had to categorize it or explain it very simply, very briefly, that's what we would say. But right now, the way it is felt for over a year and a half is that there is no time at all.
• 14:19
  There is no now time. There is no memory time. It's like when we lost that therapist, we also lost time. Like it just disappeared. So part of what's been so emotional and traumatic is that it feels like those moments of losing her initially, that that's still happening, like that emotional flashback, like that it's ongoing, like no one turned that switch off.
• 14:46
  And so it feels like we're drowning in that grief because we can't move forward or move on or move through or around or whatever. We can't deal with it because it's still happening right now. Now, cognitively, I know that doesn't make sense and I know that it's not, but that's how it feels. It's like now time got shut off and now we're all living in memory time. I don't know how else to explain it.
• 15:16
  So we talked about this in therapy and do you know what she said? I loved this so much. Again, we just keep coming back because it keeps working. Like for whatever reason, we are clicking really well and it has been so helpful. She said dissociation is a normal neurological response to abnormal traumatic experiences.
• 15:42
  Right? And you think, oh yeah, yeah, oh, that's a good definition. I've heard something like that before. But then this is what she pulls out of her pocket. She says, In quantum physics, time and space are constructs of perception.
• 16:00
  And I was like, wait, what? I mean, like, that's a fun fact. But what does that mean? And what does it have to do with dissociation? And she said, when your cortex is offline, like, your brain and body do not have context.
• 16:19
  They do not have constructs. They do not have perceptions. Your brain and body, you guys, cannot tell time. Are you kidding me? So that was huge, and we are still processing that.
• 16:41
  But then our homework for that week was how do we wanna work to increase communication inside? The bullet journal really is how we've even been able to maintain function. But beyond that, we're not doing anything. We're not doing the notebooks. We're not writing.
• 16:56
  We're not talking to her. We're not letting them out. We're not talking inside. Like, the walls are up. Like, everything is slammed down.
• 17:06
  All the gates are closed. Number two, why is it therapy again worth the risk? You guys, we still have not answered that question. And number three, where do we want to start? Also have not answered that question.
• 17:28
  So last week or two weeks ago, we came back and said, okay. We try to answer the questions, but we really just can't. Like, if I'm learning to trust my body, there is a visceral denial refusal. It is not safe enough to answer those questions. Why is therapy safe enough to try again?
• 17:50
  I don't know. Because I think we don't feel safe enough yet to try again other than we're coming back one week at a time. And where do we want to start? I don't think we do know where we wanna start because it doesn't feel safe to start, because it hurts so much and the grief is so real and so raw and so deep, and they are so wounded and they are so hurt. We just can't.
• 18:22
  Like, we can't do therapy. Never mind the fact that we've now been in therapy for three months straight. Okay? Let's just skip that piece. The point is we can't do therapy.
• 18:33
  Okay? We have moved from I hate therapy to we can't do therapy. I know. I know. We are doing therapy.
• 18:41
  I don't need to hear that from you. I'm just saying we can't do therapy. That's what it feels like. But do you know what? She did not judge us.
• 18:49
  She said, that makes perfect sense. Anytime we invite growth, there is fear involved. Oh my goodness, you guys, she's killing me. So we randomly, through conversation about that, went back to the book Women Who Run With The Wolves, which maybe you have not read, and it really doesn't have anything to do with DID or dissociation. But it is our bible, like our second bible, like our scripture book, like our daily life.
• 19:22
  Like, we have three copies entirely worn out by bathtubs and hot tubs and rivers and oceans and lakes and highlighters and torn pages and folded pages and marked pages and everything. Like, there's so much in it. Okay? It is our other book. We love this book.
• 19:44
  It is our favorite book, and she knows this book. I don't mean like she has heard of it. I mean like she knows it the way we know it. And I thought, oh crap. Because now we're stuck.
• 20:03
  Because there's something legit and authentic, unrelated to therapy itself, that connects us in a safe way and things took off from there. That's what finally got us committed to therapy. But also because we're not talking about therapy. Okay. So what we did was we went back to the story.
• 20:28
  So if you don't know the Vasilisi story well, first of all, let me explain Women Who Run With the Wolves. Every chapter is a different fairy tale. Okay? And she's a union, which is what we were trained under actually old school on purpose because our college sucked and we wanted some real training, and that's the best that we could do. So the thing about union stuff and fairy tales is that everything represents something.
• 20:56
  So everything in the story, every detail in a dream, it's all you, which I think resonates with us so much because it's very DID. Right? And so it's easy to talk about in that context. And so we went back to the Vasalisa story. Vasalisa is one of the chapters in the book.
• 21:18
  So in the woman who run with the wolves book, every chapter is a different fairy tale. But the fairy tales are not like the westernized Christian easy sweet Disney versions. They are the old school, unedited, raw, and terrifying versions. And it is good, good stuff. And the Vasilisi story is when the daughter is trying to leave and the mother, known in union as the too good mother, is like, no.
• 21:49
  No. Don't do it. Stay here. She's trying to keep us safe. But, ultimately, that not wanting to do it is what's keeping us from growing.
• 22:01
  Right? So that's the too good mother. And then Vasilisa, of course, is us. But she goes on this journey, and in her pocket is a little doll. So Vasilisa has this little doll, and the doll represents our intuition.
• 22:19
  And the doll uses her fear as a catalyst because it's hard to let go of the too good mother, but we have to let go of the too good mother if we're going to make progress. And so this stepped all over our toes as far as grief goes and needing to reengage in therapy because we're not where we were two years ago. And if we don't let go of what is now memory time, we are not gonna make progress in now time. And it's literally making us crazy. And that's what's so toxic about it.
• 22:57
  It's not that the people are bad. It's that we are caught in a loop that is not helping us get well. And as long as we stay in that loop with the too good mother, we're not going to get better. We have to step outside of that, let go of that, let it be in memory time, and start fresh with who we are, who she is in the present, who our friends are in the present, who the husband is in the present, who the children are in the present. You guys, if we want to reclaim now time, we have to live in now time.
• 23:34
  Ouch. I know. I know. It hurts so much. It's so terrifying.
• 23:39
  That's the point. And in the Vasalisa story, what is terrifying is what she sees. And what she sees is the classic Russian baba yaga. It's the Hungarian version from Clarissa who is part Hungarian. But it's like the gingerbread house in Hansel and Gretel, except instead of the gingerbread house.
• 24:02
  It's like a house, and it's up on chicken legs. And that represents that terrifying, terrifying experience of stepping out. And when we learned about stepping towards or turning towards, you guys, what we didn't realize until this moment is that we were supposed to be turning towards ourselves. And so Baba Yaga initiates Vasilisa into trusting herself. And so our homework last week, which we have two weeks to do because of the ISSTD conference.
• 24:45
  So we're missing one week of therapy and which is okay because we have so much stuff happening, and the conference will be like therapy, except not, but, you know, educational. And so taking all that energy up, which is fine. So we have two weeks. And what we have for these two weeks for homework is to write our own fairy tale so that we are not using direct words that are unsafe, but that we are creating our own story about stepping forward and turning towards ourselves and what is that going to look like. And so what we first did the first week was she had us make a list of things we would want to be in our fairy tale.
• 25:36
  What items do we want in our fairy tale? And the things that we came up with were a path, a river, a bridge, a wolf, a forest, a knapsack, a ring, a book, a fire, a moon, the stars, and the tree house, which you know more about that if you've read the book. So these are the things that we literally listed. And then over the next week, we just sort of played with those words, not writing a story, but trying to put them down on paper. And for us, that came through bullet journaling and just kind of drawing a little map out of it, like what the path looks like and where the things are.
• 26:26
  So we still don't have a story, but we have it down on paper what the story looks like. Does that make sense? And then the next thing we did this week was we drew what the girl looks like. And I don't just mean the girl, but the girl of our fairy tale and how she is outlined so that it almost looks like there's more of her, like, very multiple, as if, like, with an aura or something, except multiple people, but just the one girl. And her hair is made from leaves of branches from the trees and feathers so that she's very wild.
• 27:10
  So we have sketched her out and added color to that. And so now we have our character and we have the story. And so then it was time to write the story itself. So when we had therapy this week, we talked about the wildness of the girl and the things that it means. And the first thought that came to me was, I remember maybe ten or fifteen years ago, it's literally a time question, so I can't remember, but it was before we were married.
• 27:47
  We committed ourselves to living a winter as Walden. Okay, guys. Just bear with me. Okay? You already know we're a little crazy.
• 28:01
  Just bear with us. So we do not have a Walden inside. That's not what I mean. But we some of us I don't wanna name names because I don't have permission for any names right now. Things are so walled up.
• 28:14
  But we decided to live a winter as Walden. And so for one whole winter, we did not use any electricity or heat. We only used a fire in the fireplace to heat, to cook, and to, and for light. Okay? And it was an epic experience.
• 28:39
  It was actually exhausting as it turns out because we could not chop wood fast enough to keep wood burning long enough to be able to cook and to be warm and to be able to see. Like, it was a lot of work. It was exhausting. But also it was one of those powerful meditative experiences that was very healing for us in a 100 ways that no one else will ever understand, but also that I would never want to repeat. Oh my goodness, you guys.
• 29:14
  It was so intense. But that's the kind of wild I'm talking about. And so we talked about fearless, and we talked about confident, and we talked about resourceful, like knowing what we need and what we don't need and what's safe and what's not and belonging to ourselves and caring, but in an alert and knowing kind of way, not in being anxious. And these are the things we talked about together. And so that's sort of the character of the girl.
• 29:51
  And so we had the character of the girl, we had a picture of the girl, and we sort of have this map of what her journey was gonna be. And so then it was time to write it, and that was terrifying. But before I go any further, you guys, let me be clear. This therapist is asking me to write a fairy tale literally the week my book was published. I just wrote 500 pages, and now you're like, oh, let's write a story.
• 30:28
  I'm like, come on. Are you kidding me? You guys, I hate therapy so much. No. Really, of course, what's terrifying is I know that whatever shows up on the page is gonna get analyzed, and I can't not know this.
• 30:41
  And so it's really, really hard to get started. Also, the writer fatigue is legit. Okay? But once again, when it got hard, we did what we know to do, which was to go back to art first. And so the next thing we did was draw a picture, a sketch of what the path is like, not like a map of where everything is, but, like, as if I were on the path for the journey looking into the forest.
• 31:13
  What is it that I see? And I wanted it to feel safe and not scary even though the long walk is difficult. You have to go through and not around. I know. I know.
• 31:26
  I know. But so we painted. We just some watercolor, just super simple, some trees, really tall trees, enough that there was coverage over the top so it's kind of dark but not scary, And the green foliage around the bottom. And then, like, some fireflies, so little bits of light, which was unexpected, but it was enough to make the path not scary. And I think that internally, we needed that before we could get to the story.
• 32:06
  So that was the next part. And then it was time to write. Okay. So I am only reading the first part. That's all I have done so far.
• 32:20
  But here's what we have so far. Okay? Don't laugh at me. She could feel the warmth of the morning sun on her skin before her eyes fluttered awake. When she did open her eyes, the first thing she saw was her knapsack, where it still swung from a branch to dry.
• 32:41
  She rolled herself on the green moss that had been her bed, shifting to sit up against the trunk of the tree underneath which she had slept. She shivered, the air heavy with dawning dew and her clothes still damp from the river late last night. As she stood to stretch, her stomach grumbled for breakfast. She was hungry and the wooded air smelled like apple blossoms. She walked around the tree looking for a piece of fruit ripe enough to pick.
• 33:11
  She could not find one, even as she came full circle back to her knapsack. After unbuckling the large satchel pocket, she pulled out a book. It was also still wet and needed to lay out on the sand to dry. Some of the worn pages were already out of the binding, and she spread them about with a pile of pebbles on each one so they wouldn't blow away. In an effort to save the rest, she tried to prop open sections with sticks and twigs, enough that air could get in and the sun could warm their words.
• 33:47
  Then she scoured the shore's boulders and bushes for berries, but still found nothing. Her bare feet couldn't venture further into the thicket and her shoes had been lost running from the fire. Remembering this made her shudder, not just because of the horror that had been, but because of what happened next. She found a large flat rock where she could stretch out in the sun. She looked across the river and scanned the tree line.
• 34:16
  She couldn't see any bears, but wondered if it was still there or if it could see her. No one will believe me, she thought, that a bear chased me into the river. There was no one to believe her anyway. She was alone and on her own, and the morning stretched into afternoon. She drank from the river that had saved her from both fire and bear.
• 34:42
  As the sun began to set, she laid her sun dried sweater over the moss to sleep again under the apple tree. It was not the rustling of pages that woke her, but the flickering of moonlight as shadows passed. Only then did she hear the chittering, and her skin creeped with goosebumps when she did. She sat up and squinted in the night, trying to see the dark shapes near the riverbed. It was a raccoon with its dark masks and sharp fingernails, and it was stealing her pages.
• 35:16
  She stood up and stomped her foot and shouted, those are my pages. The raccoon froze, staring back at her. Finders keepers. No, those are mine. She ran toward the bank to scoop up the other pages before the raccoon stole them.
• 35:33
  You left them here. I left them there to dry, and I put pebbles on them to hold them safe. She grabbed the book and stuffed the loose pages inside. I can shred these, and they will keep me warm. Those are my words, not your warmth.
• 35:51
  They are my book, not your blanket. She held out her hand demanding the pages be returned. The raccoon looked back at her, chittered, and then turned and scampered off beneath the thicket where she could neither go nor see. She began to cry. She clutched the other pages close to her before turning to walk back to her tree.
• 36:16
  She was still crying as she placed the dried pages back into the knapsack, clasping the buckles before hanging it back on the branch above where she would lay until morning for another night of not much sleeping. When the rising sun woke her again, she sat up even hungrier than she had been the day before. But this time, when she stood to stretch, she saw something sparkle in the light by the river. There, where her pages had disappeared into the thicket, a path through had been cleared into the forest. And on the path sat her missing shoes, dried and clean and ready to wear.
• 36:56
  And between the path and the river, on the sand where she had laid her pages to dry, little piles of berries replaced the piles of pebbles as if someone had prepared her breakfast. Okay, that's all I've done so far. And so we're gonna send that in and see what happens because therapy. Oh my goodness. That's the start of our fairy tale.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
• 37:58
  We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring for our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too. That's what peer support is all about.
• 38:25
  Being human together. So yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.