Latest / Breaking Precedent / Breaking Orbit: Eiman Jahangir - Fly Me To The Moon
Transcript
- Okay. So, Eiman, you applied to NASA five times. What made you keep going, and how do you know when persistence is courage versus delusion? I'm a competitive person, but it's never been with other people. Hmm. I don't have to win at bumper pool, but I was always competitive with myself. So- Hmm ... when I fail at something or don't get selected for something, I try to figure out why. Some ways, it was probably delusion because I kept persisting, but it was also stubbornness because I knew that this is something I wanted to do, and the only path there was NASA for the longest time. Hi, everyone. I'm Leah Sullivan, and this is Breaking Precedent. We are back with a special bonus episode, bonus content today. I'm talking with my brother-in-law, Dr. Eiman Jahangir, who was the first in Nashville, first in Tennessee, first Persian man, first of many things to go up to space on a Blue Origin flight. His story is absolutely incredible. There's a full interview with Eiman from season one that we'll make sure that we post and tack onto this. But Eiman has a book coming out called A Heart for Space. It's available for pre-order right now, and I wanted to get all the updates and share all the details with the Breaking Precedent community. So enjoy this bonus episode with Eiman. It is amazing to have sort of this follow-up conversation, Eiman, so welcome back to Breaking Precedent. Thank you. Okay. I'm very excited to be here. I know. I'm so excited too because there's so much to talk about, and so much has happened since your Blue Origin flight. How long has it been since the flight? I flew in August 2024, so almost but not quite two years, a year and a half. Wow. Wow, amazing. Well, I want to do some updates here and share updates, uh, with, with the audience because I think you've been working on some really cool stuff. And, you know, and actually, your episode is, is a fan favorite. I- when people come up to me and say, like, "Oh, I listen to your podcast, and I really love the one with your brother-in-law and how he went to space." So it's, um, it's a fan favorite. Well, thank you, and thank you for everyone who's listening and interested. Okay. So I thought we'd give everyone an update on what's been going on and kind of dive deeper, too, into some of the stories you told, um, in the original episode. So, you know, Eiman, you've lived this incredibly responsible life. You are a doctor. You are a professor. You've been chasing this dream to go to space, something so wild and so improbable. You chased it for decades. I wanna know, though, when did you realize that playing it safe was actually the bigger risk for you? Oof. Well, you know, I think we all Are taught to play it safe, at least in, like, formal school. If you talk about formal education, it's, you know, you go to school, you go to college, you get a job, maybe you go to graduate school. And really, it was after medical school that I thought about diverting, but still played it safe the whole way through. And it wasn't until probably five years ago, I'd say 2021, um, where... I mean, I guess I didn't play it safe 20 years ago when I applied to NASA, 'cause that would've been a full divergence. But really in 2021, when commercial space opened up, I said, "This is it." Like, I'm not getting any younger. NASA, I've tried for tw- at that point 16 years- Mm-hmm ... maybe longer, and they hadn't- Mm-hmm ... taken me, so now it was time to find- Mm-hmm ... a different way to achieve my dream. Yeah. I mean, I, I think it is so incredible. Um, you know, I've been writing a lot for my book, and I can't wait to t- talk about your upcoming book as well, but thinking through how people pivot and change direction, and I think your case is a really interesting example, because you never gave up on the dream, but you did pivot the way you were able to achieve it. Can you talk a little bit about what it took to go a non-traditional path, and, and follow, I guess, a path really less traveled that you, you know, had to kinda pave on your own? I think, uh, when you talk about what I really imagined, if I was gonna talk about the space dream was to be a NASA astronaut. Most of us grow up dreaming that. We wanna go... When we were younger, we wanted to fly on the shuttle. Now, it's spending time on the space station, and soon to be going to the moon. So I think that that would've been the what I imagine my future being. Uh, but we have to remain flexible, and I talk about this in my book, that you can have... I mean, Jeff Bezos said this best. He said, "You have to be firm on the vision, but flexible on the details." So the vision was always there. It was, "I wanna go to space," traditionally as a NASA astronaut, but as I grew older, I realized space was the goal. And then the details switched, and something like commercial space didn't even exist when this dream came, came about. The only way to go to space back then was NASA or with the Russians in the Soyuz. So it's pretty incredible seeing how the last five years have evolved, because all of a sudden there was a lot more opportunity. So as soon as I realized there was a way that wasn't NASA, then all of my energy and effort and thinking went to, "How do I get to space with one of these commercial entities?" Yeah, same dream, but different path. It's amazing. Yeah. So your book is called A Heart for Space, which is such a poetic title. What does heart have to do with space? And what did you have to feel, not just to do, but to actually get there? There are two parts to the heart for space piece. One is the dream that we all have growing up. I think that humans as a whole have always looked to space and wondered what was out there. Whe- whether you're talking thousands of years ago with our ancestors or little kids now growing up in the suburbs, in the cities, we all look up to space and dream, and that's really, like, the poetic part of a heart for space, because we all actually have that passion and love and dream for what's out there. The other part of it is, is when you think about the ideas of sports in a lot of ways, you have to have heart, right? If you wanna, if you wanna pursue something, you have to do it wholeheartedly. You can't come into it half-hearted. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And so my pursuit of space was always wholehearted. So in that sense, it was a heart for space. Now, the other side is I'm a heart doctor. I know. It's so perfect. And so- It could not be more perfect. So for me, it's, it's all of that. It's the kid in me, it's the, the effort and the pursuit it took to get there, and then it's my profession, because at the end of the day, I still take care of people's hearts, even though I'm dreaming of space most of the time. Amazing. And then- So meant to be ... you asked what, what it took to get there, the actual heart piece of it, and I think it was that idea of never giving up, and then also just knowing that it was one of those things that I loved so much. I love seeing humans go to space. My friend Jessica Meir just recently went up to the space station. She's gonna be up there for eight months. She's up there right now, just did a spacewalk last week. And I see her go to space, and I have nothing but joy. I mean, it's just pure happiness. I'm gonna see these, uh, astronauts launch to the moon on Artemis II, hopefully in a couple weeks. That's huge. I mean, we have never existed on this earth, you and I, and seen someone go to the moon. Yeah. Yeah. And now we have people going back to the moon, and today they released a whole plan about having a lunar base and what that's gonna look like. Mm-hmm. So NASA's been pretty exciting t- thing. So it's also just that joy and that passion- Mm-hmm ... of watching human- do this. Okay. So why has it taken us so long to go back to the moon? Is there a conspiracy there? It's not because it's fake. Okay. You heard it here. Are you sure? Moon landings are not fake. I am sure. I think much like everything else, there's government bureaucracy, and we had pivoted to the space shuttle, which was an incredible spacecraft, but very costly, and then focused on the space station, which has been running... Humans have been living off Earth for 25 years. So there are people, our children, for instance, people in high school and college, who have never- lived without someone from, you know, some human being living off planet, which is pretty incredible. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So we diverted our, our thoughts, and money, and attentions to that, which was super important because we learned about how space reacts to the body. We've had humans live up there for 372 days- Wow ... at a time, which is pretty incredible. We've had a ni- a twin study with Scott and Mark Kelly, where they actually were able to study one twin in space, one twin on Earth, and see what differences happened- Yeah ... which was also pretty incredible. Now it's time to pivot. We've done that. It's been incredible. We have private companies building space stations, so it's not like we're giving up on the space station, it's just that it's moving from the more of the public partnership to a private partnership, private companies, which is gonna be pretty incredible. So now we can go as NASA and do the hard things. We can go to the Moon, we can land on the Moon, we can have a permanent settlement on the Moon. And then who knows? Maybe Mars. Mars is next. So Eiman, how do you think AI, artificial intelligence, is going to accelerate space travel, space exploration? Like, where are you seeing kind of the leverage points with this new technology? Much like what we've seen best case uses for AI so far is data collection, data analysis, and in design. So there was actually a rocket company, I don't know if it was a, it was an formalized company, but I think it was a group in China, if I recall, that used AI to, to design a rocket engine, and then built it using 3D printing. Metal, metal 3D printing. So it looked completely out of this world. It was a design that you and I have never seen in a rocket engine. Wow. This was just the last few months. So there is gonna be benefit from just how does it look at engineering problems to whether it's design of an engine, design of radiation protection, which is super important, or maybe even fuel and battery power. We're talking more and more about using nuclear to go to space. So cool. The other side of it is just, you know, human power and engineering. So a lot of time what aerospace engineers do is they design things, and they work on CAD and other things to actually design parts for the spaceship. Once again, I think it was MIT recently released an AI program. They can do a lot of that manipulation with a lot less time constraint. It still requires the human to, to say what they think is good or bad, but they don't have to manipulate every little line. So- Efficiency, uh, also design is gonna improve, and then as we go into space, particularly if we're talking about deep space, there may be a benefit to having a AI-assisted buddy, you know, something that you can converse with. Maybe you don't wanna talk to your crewmate because- ... you're living with them for six months on a small- 'Cause they ate all the freeze-dried food. Yeah, or they, you know, they don't know how to use the restroom properly. I don't know. But- ... w- there definitely is probably a benefit to talking to the AI, but maybe not the depressive version that they're saying is out there on certain platforms. Oh, we are so keeping this in. We are not cutting this out. Okay. Um, or maybe if you go into deep space and we find the aliens, like the AI could talk to the aliens, right? M- I mean, your Apple phone can translate for you now, so- Totally ... we just need to upload the, the new, uh, cargo pill Mary rock alien- language. I love it. I love it. I love it. All right. So many immigrant stories are about stability. You became a doctor. Um, you know, immigrants, you know, sometimes may not be able to take as many risks. You followed that path, um, but then you broke the script. You, like, really veered off, and you broke through and did something different. Do you think that breaking precedent is a privilege? It is definitely a privilege. I will tell you, it would've been very difficult to have broken that precedent if I didn't already have myself established in a stable career. Mm-hmm. My brother tells this story, and I think it speaks to what you're saying. So in 2008, I applied to be a NASA astronaut on a whim. We knew each other back then, not thinking it would get anywhere. Yeah. And then all of a sudden I find myself in the finals, right? Finalist interview's down from 3,700 people down to about 50. They're gonna pick 10, and I still hadn't told my parents. There's my immigrant- God, I didn't know that. They want the stability, right? Yeah, yeah. I was a doctor. I was... I had started training to be a heart doctor. I was living in Nashville. Mm. This was everything they imagined. He's gonna be a cardiologist. He lives in Nashville. Mm-hmm. I had met your sister. He's got this nice woman who wants to, for some reason, hang out with him. Uh, and so I didn't tell them. So my brother sits me down, and he's like, "Dude, you have to tell Mom and Dad. Like, you have a one in five chance of being an astronaut. They can't find out on the internet." Yeah, yeah. So, so it goes back to that idea of stability because for them, being a physician was that stability and is that stability. Even when I veered off, and we haven't talked... You know, before we talked, we, I hadn't gone and worked for Blue Origin. But I went last year- Mm-hmm ... so in 2025, and spent about six, seven months working for Blue Origin as an astronaut trainer helping with research projects, payloads. And even me telling my parents that I was gonna go do that, they were like- Yeah "Are you crazy?" Like, "You have this great job. You're- Yeah ... you're a professor." So It's hard to break precedent, particularly if you're living for other people's, uh, expectations. Yeah. And, and I think anyone that does this, that breaks precedent, should be commended because it's not easy. It, it doesn't matter what your background is, you know, any of us that, that do that are privileged to be able to do that, or at least have the mindset of being able to do that, because sometimes just having that mindset is what keeps us down one side. Yeah. No, absolutely. And, and I'm so proud of you for taking that leap too, to go to Blue Origin and work there. And I think if anyone re-listens to the original podcast, you won't be surprised because Eiman really jumps into action and takes a leadership role on the flight. And, you know, they saw something in you and wanted you to help train, you know, these crews going up. So I... It was just, like, incredible to watch your full journey and your full, full arc there as well. Thank you. No, I appreciate that. Okay, so Eiman, you applied to NASA five times. Most people get rejected once and move on. What made you keep going, and how do you know when persistence is courage versus delusion? Or maybe stubbornness. The other case. Absolutely, yeah. I'm a competitive person, but it's never been with other people. You know, I'm not particularly athletic. Hmm. I don't have to win at bumper pool if I'm playing with friends. I do have friends that are super competitive like that. Like, if they're losing just a casual game of bumper pool over a drink, they get very frustrated. That was never me. But I was always competitive with myself. Hmm. So when I fail at something or don't get selected for something, I try to figure out why, and then try to figure out how I can improve on that. So in some ways, it was probably delusion bec- because I kept persisting. I'd come up with reasons why they weren't picking me. Like right now I'm probably too old, but I might apply again in three or four years when the, when the selection process opens up. Mm-hmm. But it was also stubbornness, because I knew that this is something I wanted to do, and the only path there was NASA for the longest time. So when commercial space opened up, I applied to another, I think, seven different entities, opportunities to see if one would hit, and finally, the MoonDAO community, you know, was l- kind enough to endorse my, uh, spaceflight. Yeah. Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. So after actually going to space, did it make you dream bigger, or did it completely change what you think matters? I mean, I'm ready to go to the Moon, but- That, I guess that's bigger That's bigger. That, that seems bigger If you have a pilot or a friend who's looking for someone to take to the moon, just give me a call. Yes, yes. Uh, beyond that, I would say it did allow me to pivot. I mean, for one, I was able to go work for an aerospace company, which would al- was always a dream, but there just wasn't a good way to do it. I think that that was a good opportunity, and I'm glad I took that. And then beyond that, I pivoted into just trying to motivate people, particularly young people or leaders in, like, business environments, uh, corporations, to, to push, to try to do more, to try to have the courage to pursue that dream or that goal that they've been sitting on. Because I think we all do have things that we want to do, and often we don't get motivated to do them, whatever, whatever that reason may be. So I'm out there, and I've been out there talking to, to groups about this, both locally, nationally, and internationally, and that's what the book is about. The book is not only part my story and how I did it, but a step-by-step plan of how someone can achieve their dreams. And then I also interviewed eight different astronauts, including the current, uh, NASA administrator, Jared Isaacman, about how they did it. So not only do you have to hear what I have to say, but you can hear how other people have succeeded in achieving kind of the impossible, honestly. So exciting. So the book is called A Heart for Space. It's available for pre-order right now. Where can people find it, Eiman? It's available on Barnes & Noble. It's available on Amazon. Uh, you can also go to eimanjahangir.com, and we will have a book pre-order site there where you can get the first chapter, so if you're interested- Ooh ... in reading a little bit now. Nice. I'm gonna go straight there right after this. Chapter one is out already? It's out already. It's so exciting. Well, congratulations, Eiman. Really excited to read the full book and, um, excited to be able to share these updates with the Breaking Precedent audience. And thanks for, uh, having me back on. It's exciting to see what you've done and how you're breaking precedent. All right. Thank you.